I find it highly unrealistic that there are no dwarf-only tribes or communes.
Agreed.
There used to be, but the great gith-fest of '86 put paid to that.
Slavers.
I'd like a count on how many dwarven pcs are created with the focus of founding a dwarven village/tribe/city etc.
Too many. I bet it's one of the most common foci.
Probably follows directly behind "become the most powerful XYZ (not necessarily coded guild) in the known world.
Stunty slaves should stay where they belong.
Lord Templar Hard Nose rests his ankles on a well-oiled, mirukkim-speaking footrest.
I've tried three times. All three were short lived.
The focus us cursed, I tell you!!!
Actually, the gith had nothing at all to do with it.
OOCly, I think the staffer simply had too much on his plate.
ICly...well, that is still too IC.
One day I shall play Gotrek. Play him GOOD.
Quote from: mansa on July 21, 2010, 09:22:00 PM
Agreed.
This has bothered me for quite some time now.
Extremely unrealistic. It makes dwarves sort of the lost puppies of the clan-world.
Quote from: Eternal on July 21, 2010, 10:31:14 PM
Too many. I bet it's one of the most common foci.
Probably follows directly behind "become the most powerful XYZ (not necessarily coded guild) in the known world.
Stunty slaves should stay where they belong.
Lord Templar Hard Nose rests his ankles on a well-oiled, mirukkim-speaking footrest.
Too bad dwarves make poor slaves.
I'm not sure those focuses are actually that common. It's just that most dwarves probably have a focus that the dwarf can interpret as 'Hmm, I need to become an expert X, Y and Z in order to succeed." The dwarf then becomes obsessed with that small leg of the focus, and of course the PC dies before it is completed and so nobody actually got to see the dwarf really playing to his focus. They assume he was just playing a dwarf to twink it out because all he did was join a Byn, train, and then die on a contract right before his Runnership was over.
The difficulty with dwarves is that they are pretty much by definition a long-term role, unless you pick a suicide focus.
As for the topic at hand, given how few people roll dwarves, there's no wonder it's hard to get a stable dwarf-only player-made clan going. If you had a dwarven staff-supported clan, either you'd have not enough players in the clan, or too many PC dwarves in the clan and not enough in the rest of the world.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on July 22, 2010, 04:13:18 AM
The difficulty with dwarves is that they are pretty much by definition a long-term role, unless you pick a suicide focus.
His single maniacal eye glittering feverishly, the one-eyed, heavily-tattooed dwarf says, in sirihish, "Daemons you say, manling?"
A few points:
- Dwarves are the third most populous race in either city-state. They make up almost 2% of Allanak's population, and around 1% of Tuluk's population. Of those, approximately 2/3 of them are slaves. If dwarves did not make good slaves, such a high percentage would not be used. Elves, on the other hand, make horrible slaves, and as such, less of them are slaves (about 1/10 in either city-state). In comparison, though, there just aren't that many dwarves in Zalanthas compared to humans and elves--together, the two races make up more than 90% of the population of the two city-states.
- There may not be any playable dwarven tribes or tribes you may use as a dwarven background, but virtual tribes still exist, likely in some far-flung corner of the Known somewhere. These tribes would not be numerous (either in the amount of tribes, or in the amount of dwarves in each tribe) due to the same sad fact: there are not many dwarves out there in the Known World. If so inclined, one could use a virtual tribe as the background for their dwarf.
- I am not sure that the gameworld is missing a coded, supported dwarven tribe. The one people refer to was brought in briefly (it existed IC already though--as I recall--not as a coded background one could use) as a playable tribe. The staff posts I see on this on the IDB reflect that from the very start, this was not intended to be open to players for very long--and yes, while RL duties of staff did come in to play, the tribe was never intended to stay open indefinitely. Whatever occurred IC, well, that's IC and all that. Yes, some players may want to play in a coded, supported tribe, but I don't see that happening anytime soon (maybe not at all).
I bet most dwarfs born into slavery, who know nothing but a life of slavery, likely have slavery-related focuses.
PC dwarfs, like most PCs, are somewhat of the heroic exceptions of the normal populations. They're the ones with ambitious focuses. They have goals to better themselves and accomplish great things.
Note: there's nothing wrong with that. I'd hardly expect anyone to play a dwarf with the focus of "make a million clay bricks" or "keep Lady Borsail's room clean", even if that's what most dwarfs' focuses are like.
Additional note: A PC dwarf's focus need not be nigh impossible. There's nothing wrong with starting out with a focus like "kill a gith". Once you accomplish that, you have your moment of joy... and then the next focus comes (which might be "kill a braxat", or "kill a whole gith scouting party").
Since the topic of dwarves has been brought up, I'd like to point out how poorly most people play dwarves.
Most people just can't get past the Tolkien conception of a dwarf when they play one in Zalanthas. In Tolkein's work, dwarves were grufff, blustery and dour. In Zalanthas, dwarves are supposed to be stubborn, focused and resolute.
People walk into arm and they're basically trying to play Gimli. 99% of dwarven characters end up just either being Scotsmen or pirates. This is wrong. Think more Data from Star Trek. Dwarves are not really supposed to be gruff or blustery.
I don't send in role-play complaints because this is a game and we're all (supposed to be) in it to have fun. All the same, if people could make an effort to get past Tolkein it would help. Basically, if you think that Gimli was at all cool you probably don't belong playing a dwarf in Zalanthas. Remeber that Zalanthan elves are the OPPOSITE of Tolkein elves and that Zalanthan dwarves are the OPPOSITE of Tolkein dwarves.
I know this is difficult for people because they all love them some Tolkein. And lots of us would love to be Scottish for a week. But if you really want to play a gruff, dour blustery character there is nothing wrong with playing a human with a beard and a high strength score. Really, I think that this personality type might fit Red Storm characters pretty well.
I think there's plenty of room for personality in Zalanthan dwarfs. Emotion too.
Besides, it's possible most of the time other PCs are distracting a dwarf from his focus, in which case I think he has every right and reason to be gruff and dour.
Data, on the other hand, is exceedingly accommodating of others. Also he's astoundingly proficient at multitasking, being a computer and all. I don't really see him as being any sort of iconic Zalanthan dwarf.
Quote from: jriley on July 22, 2010, 12:20:55 PM
Since the topic of dwarves has been brought up, I'd like to point out how poorly most people play dwarves.
Most people just can't get past the Tolkien conception of a dwarf when they play one in Zalanthas. In Tolkein's work, dwarves were grufff, blustery and dour. In Zalanthas, dwarves are supposed to be stubborn, focused and resolute.
People walk into arm and they're basically trying to play Gimli. 99% of dwarven characters end up just either being Scotsmen or pirates. This is wrong. Think more Data from Star Trek. Dwarves are not really supposed to be gruff or blustery.
I don't send in role-play complaints because this is a game and we're all (supposed to be) in it to have fun. All the same, if people could make an effort to get past Tolkein it would help. Basically, if you think that Gimli was at all cool you probably don't belong playing a dwarf in Zalanthas. Remeber that Zalanthan elves are the OPPOSITE of Tolkein elves and that Zalanthan dwarves are the OPPOSITE of Tolkein dwarves.
I know this is difficult for people because they all love them some Tolkein. And lots of us would love to be Scottish for a week. But if you really want to play a gruff, dour blustery character there is nothing wrong with playing a human with a beard and a high strength score. Really, I think that this personality type might fit Red Storm characters pretty well.
That's your opinion. Which i believe is wrong.
If a dwarf is just an infallible machine they should not even be PC Class. NPC is fine for that. What you lazy smelly and flea ridden humans may see as wasting coins drinking, a dwarf may perceive as a needed relaxation to clear his mind so he can attack his goals even stronger later. The hard part of being a dwarf is having to justify to yourself or others why you are doing something where as a human just does it for the fuck of it. I see everything as a dwarf does as a long Con. Eventually he'll run off and try and cut Tek's balls off and drink the tea he made for it and become immortal. But in order for him to think he has a good chance, he may wait until he can procure his +8 steel dagger and have his army of twenty seven max-climb skilled HGS ready.
And as for why dwarves might be blustery. They have to deal with a lot of issues that don't directly relate to their focus. Eating and drinking is not really related to many focuses but you have to stay alive. They may know they have to bow to templars, make coins, and so on and so forth to -survive- because you can't do shit dead. That doesn't mean they -like- dealing with said necessary but very faintly focus related activities. I play it as impatience with having to do irritating things such as eat, drink, sleep, follow laws, talk to people, etc.
Well said.
Oops, for some reason I misremembered the docs as saying Dwarves didn't make good slaves. I think they say something about a dwarf slave with the wrong focus being trouble for its owners, but for someone got that mixed up with the elves universally being bad slaves deal. My bad.
Now if only dwarves made up 2% of the PC population and elves made up 40%....Seems to be very nearly the other way around, mostly.
Quote from: Titania on July 22, 2010, 12:36:19 PM
If a dwarf is just an infallible machine they should not even be PC Class. NPC is fine for that. What you lazy smelly and flea ridden humans may see as wasting coins drinking, a dwarf may perceive as a needed relaxation to clear his mind so he can attack his goals even stronger later.
Aye, hopefully Allanak's stills are at full production and there are plenty of kitten biscuits so foci can be properly attacked.
Quote from: Synthesis on July 22, 2010, 01:45:45 PM
Now if only dwarves made up 2% of the PC population and elves made up 40%....Seems to be very nearly the other way around, mostly.
You just notice us more because free dwarves are unlikely to be ordinary. We get rich or die trying. We are the hopeless underdogs of a race that only manages to exist because of slavery. Left to our own devices we would die out unless we established our own city. We don't got time to bleed (breed)! All of our actions are steeped in significance because one of our death is the equivalent of fifty deaths of other species. Oh we who bear the burden of being walking storylines I salute you and mourn you. The only thing that keeps me from rage quitting right now is that elves also don't make it to Arm 2. (Maybe that has changed. I am trying to ignore Arm 2's existence as much as possible)
Yeah, I'm seriously bummed that dwarves won't make it to Reborn.
Anything that smacks of DarkSun too much will be overrun in some way. It's something that we have to accept intellectually.
Quote from: jhunter on July 22, 2010, 08:19:34 PM
Yeah, I'm seriously bummed that dwarves won't make it to Reborn.
They mate with the smart, club-wielding, cloak wearing raptors and we get the Durza. :D
stump
Quote from: Titania on July 22, 2010, 12:36:19 PM
That's your opinion. Which i believe is wrong.
If a dwarf is just an infallible machine they should not even be PC Class. NPC is fine for that. What you lazy smelly and flea ridden humans may see as wasting coins drinking, a dwarf may perceive as a needed relaxation to clear his mind so he can attack his goals even stronger later. The hard part of being a dwarf is having to justify to yourself or others why you are doing something where as a human just does it for the fuck of it. I see everything as a dwarf does as a long Con. Eventually he'll run off and try and cut Tek's balls off and drink the tea he made for it and become immortal. But in order for him to think he has a good chance, he may wait until he can procure his +8 steel dagger and have his army of twenty seven max-climb skilled HGS ready.
And as for why dwarves might be blustery. They have to deal with a lot of issues that don't directly relate to their focus. Eating and drinking is not really related to many focuses but you have to stay alive. They may know they have to bow to templars, make coins, and so on and so forth to -survive- because you can't do shit dead. That doesn't mean they -like- dealing with said necessary but very faintly focus related activities. I play it as impatience with having to do irritating things such as eat, drink, sleep, follow laws, talk to people, etc.
You know, I think that you and I really don't agree about how dwarves should be played, but I'll give you this -- you really seem to have thought the matter through. You make a good case for that style of role-play.
I wish that other players would put as much work into their dwarves.