This is in response to Morg's thread here:
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,39019.0.html
QuoteJust because the code lets you wield and hold items that would give you benefit to a skill doesn't mean you SHOULD do it.
Please think about what you are doing and how realistic dual-wielding screwdrivers (or fill in other appropriate tool) would be.
We will be changing items we find to make this an impossibility, but if you notice things like this, please bug it.
Amazingly I've never thought of dual wielding the same tool, however often times I wield different ones.
For instance, I might ep a chisel and es a file when I'm crafting with stone.
The reason is simple. Say, for instance, I wanted to turn a chunk of obsidian into a sweet-ass Zalanthan bowling ball. Initially I will need my chisel to make the chunk of stone more spherical. Afterwards, I would need the rasp to smooth it so that it rolled strait.
Maybe this is more of an RP question, but is that acceptable reasoning?
Have to agree with Jack. I've never dual-wielded two of the same tool. But I do frequently use a saw and carving knife together.
Pretty sure it was asked and answered just after that announcment was made... forget which thread, but the answer was that using two different tools that you can't realisticaly use at the same time isn't kosher. Nor is assuming they're used alternatively alone.
So except in a few instances, they're pretty much only wanting us to use one tool realistically.
I'm guilty of having done this but I plead ignorance. I read the description of the tool(s) and assumed, lacking firsthand experience, that it would be possible to work with two but went and google'd the tool and thinking back on it, now that I atleast have a firmer grasp of what it looks like (instead of what I mentally visualed) - I'll be sticking to just one now.
Thankfully, to my knowledge, I have avoided "dual-wielding" alike tools.
I'm pretty sure using a needle and thimble at the same time is okay.
I think you need to slip a thimble onto your thumb though, rather than hold it.
The helpfile describes using a hammer and chisel together or something, so tailoring your use to two realistic ones is okay.
Using two hand-cranked bone augers for +++skill isn't, however.
I am curious after reading through some of threads about people and their tool-holding shenanigans if staff have considered simply removing any bonuses from all tools? Having a tool doesn't make you better, it simply permits you to accomplish what you already have the knowledge and experience to do. If I hand someone a spike maul it doesn't mean they will be able to hit a spike with it, but a couple decades of doing so means the tool enables the task to be done (yeah, railroading reference for the win). I'd envision tools in game as being flavor - props really, for those doing the crafting to utilize.
Granted, I could see how a splinter-handled cheese-headed maul wouldn't be as effective as a perfectly-balanced steel-headed maul but in the game most tools are pretty rudimentary anyways.
The tools don't merely give you a greater shot at success though, codewise. They also allow you to know more items on your craft list than you would see if you weren't wielding/holding them.
Example, with tools in your pack:
craft bone
You could make a couple bone pieces with that.
You could make a bone doohickie with that.
You could make a blackened bone whatsis with that.
get tool pack;wield tool
craft bone
You can do all three things you could do a minute ago, PLUS
You could make a carved blue thingamajig with that.
get 2nd.tool pack;hold tool
craft bone
You can do all the above, including the carved blue thingamajig, PLUS
You could make a burnished, engraved, carved, puce and chartreuse-striped bone-swirled whooshie with that.
I'm pretty sure those two effects are related.
There are a few crafts which include the tool in the recipe, afaik.
I've always thought of the dual wielding of -different- tools reflects the process you go through to make that one item.
Example: When you sew, You dont grab up a length of cloth and stick your needle in it and viola! Hot pink Hot Pants!
There's a process: pinning your pattern to the cloth, cutting out the length to match the pattern, pinning the pieces together and then! needle thread.. Woohoo Hot pink hot pants!
The Code doesn't allow us this process. We cant es scissors Craft length into hot pink hot pants... Pause half way through ep needle.
Also with other crafts there's a lot of pausing going back and forth between tools.
Quote from: gfair on July 04, 2010, 12:01:54 AM
Was just wondering about some Obsidian crafting echos and found this, folks might enjoy it (Especially Nakkis)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSKO0fpES6s
Towards the middle of this video you see that there's a lot of interchanging with the tools.
I think that if we're going for realistic here, rather than es or ep an item, maybe having it in your inventory gives you a small bonus to sucess, not letting having the same tool bonus stack, but if you get the right combination of tools in your inventory have a little bit more of an edge towards sucess... Ergh if that makes sense.
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,39020.0.html
I think it's unfair that only Tool gets to respond.
Seems to me the solution ought to be that tools in inventory give a skill bonus as well as those held.
Quote from: Xeran Van Houten on July 04, 2010, 01:39:27 PM
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,39020.0.html
I understand and respect where the staff is coming from. And I like that they're taking a step to make crafting a bit more realistic. It's true, that it's silly to think that you can hold a tool in each hand and still manipulate the material in hand to create something, in most cases.
However.. On the other side of the realism coin here
The way the crafting code is set up, you start with the raw material and take it to a finished product, in most cases, in a single step.
Me taking a full length of cloth and turning it into a pair of hot pink hot pants.. with just a needle.. Doesn't seem.. very realistic.
With most things you make, it takes more than one tool to create a piece of quality. Even whittling a stick.. Sure if you want a crude whittled stick, you're just going to use a knife. However, if you want the whittled stick of doom, you're probably going to whittle it down with a knife.. Smooth it out with a piece of sand paper and stain it with cloth.
In my opinion, if we're going for realism here, being able to hold a tool in each hand seems like a fair compromise, rather than having a bulky crafting system to where it could be:
ep scissors
Craft length into pants
You lay out the fabric and begin to cut
You create a couple of pieces of fabric
rp scissors, ep needle
Craft pieces into pants
You lay out the fabric and begin to sew
You create a pair of hot pink hot pants
In my minds eye, being able to es scissors and ep needle to create the same effect, but in one step, seems more favorable and just as realistic as opposed to being able to create something with just one tool. But that's just me.
Quote from: a strange shadow on July 04, 2010, 01:21:56 PM
I'm pretty sure those two effects are related.
There are a few crafts which include the tool in the recipe, afaik.
There is one craft that I know of - turning raw cotton into cloth requires tools (such as the loom and the spindle).
I haven't experienced any craft skill other than that, where a tool is part of the recipe though. What I've experienced, is exactly what I posted above. And once my skill level got high enough, I no longer needed tools to get the same results.
I've often used tools of separate types when crafting complex items, such as scale armor or multi-material weapons. Rather than tools giving a temporary bonus to the skill as they currently do, would it be possible to code them where they give a bonus modifier to crafting success instead? This would eliminate the situations where wielding tools allows greater access to recipes while still letting tools help with the success of a final product, I think.
On another note, in 2.Arm I can see crafting being coded where particular types of tools are required for all but the most simple recipes. For example, requiring one to use an auger (drilling holes) and carving knife (carving bone/shell/wood) to craft a leather jerkin and a scrab shell into a scrab-shell, brigandine shirt. This would truly require experimentation or IC passing down of learned crafting recipes rather than the current, more simple method.
Quote from: Lizzie on July 04, 2010, 05:30:08 PM
Quote from: a strange shadow on July 04, 2010, 01:21:56 PM
I'm pretty sure those two effects are related.
There are a few crafts which include the tool in the recipe, afaik.
There is one craft that I know of - turning raw cotton into cloth requires tools (such as the loom and the spindle).
I haven't experienced any craft skill other than that, where a tool is part of the recipe though. What I've experienced, is exactly what I posted above. And once my skill level got high enough, I no longer needed tools to get the same results.
Teapot and tea maybe?
cotton and teapots are very new crafting systems - built in the last year or two.
The vast majority if the crafting system is a decade old and probably rooted in diku. That's where the problem lies. It's cool the newer systems they're going to requiring basic tools. But we still have to contend with 98% of crafting that's based on the old system.
Maybe they should just make some tools two handed. Heh.
Quote from: Armaddict on July 04, 2010, 06:50:59 PM
Maybe they should just make some tools two handed. Heh.
That's exactly what they did, at least in one case I've noticed thus far.
Quote from: Barzalene on July 04, 2010, 03:07:20 PM
I think it's unfair that only Tool gets to respond.
Don't use two of me, guys. You'll only end up hurting yourself.
Seriously though, dual wielding screwdrivers makes no sense. A thimble & needle makes sense. As Morgenes said in
one of the posts linked above, if you can't use them both at the same time, don't.
I dual wielded screwdrivers against some chump who owed me money.
Worked like a charm.