Armageddon General Discussion Board

Alright.... So a previous topic discussed whether or not c-elves should be rangers sprang up here.

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,38583.msg526941.html#msg526941

Let's see what folks think.

Would be cool to hear some reasons for or against. o:

I voted "No" because what would be the point of having a difference between city-elves and desert-elves? And like someone mentioned in your previous thread - A ranger is someone who lived and grew up in the wilderness. A city-elf is the complete opposite - An elf who grew up on the streets instead of the wastes, like their desert elven kin.

If staff say we should be playing the character, and not the guild, then by all means, let them pick ranger. One cannot help what they are talented at. The C-elf should have to deal with being mostly useless as they grew up.

I voted no, because a C-elf would have spent their forming years in the city. Whatever you don't learn in your forming years, you usually are cursed to be naturally horrible at it, unless you spend years upon years improving it.

I don't understand the whole "they didn't grow up getting trained in the desert" thing.  I always understood guilds as representing potential and aptitude. 

There are nobles who are guild pick pocket.  Did they grow up picking pockets?  Did all warriors really grow up sparring and being trained to fight?  Why must all rangers have been raised going out into the desert?

For the same reason elves don't ride. Because the docs say so.  ;D

[edited to add: Well... to better clarify, a ranger just doesn't fit the bill of a city elf. I could give more conclusive reasons why, but it reveals IC knowledge about guild restrictions. Simply put, city elves are city bred, and desert elves are desert bred. That's how the docs put it, and that's how those races are meant to be played.

Quote from: Gunnerblaster on April 19, 2010, 11:15:28 PM
I voted "No" because what would be the point of having a difference between city-elves and desert-elves? And like someone mentioned in your previous thread - A ranger is someone who lived and grew up in the wilderness. A city-elf is the complete opposite - An elf who grew up on the streets instead of the wastes, like their desert elven kin.

This is pretty shallow thinking. I don't understand your first question at all. "What's the point in having a difference between city and desert elves?" You're saying that you don't see the point in having them be different here, but they already are, vastly... It's the exact opposite of what you should be arguing. If there could be city elf rangers the differences between city and D-elf would diminish not increase.

I've played many human class rangers who didn't grow up in the wilds, fending to survive. I've played militia soldiers as class ranger before... and all sorts of different concepts that didn't focus on being a master of desert living.

This is a very wrong direction for the mud to go in. It's like saying if your play a guild_ranger you HAVE to have a certain background. It's not like all Guild_magickers have to have a background in something that pertains to their magickal skill set. Guild_assassins don't have to have a history of sneaking around killing people.

They just have an affinity for it.


I can't believe how many people are voting no without giving a reason.

I like my city elves to be super-urban and my desert elves to be super-wastelandy. I don't want there to be middle ground.

Wouldn't bother me either way.

p.s. A lot of ranger skills work in the city as well, so a c-elf ranger could easily just be an assassin without backstab who was -really- good with a crossbow instead.

I voted yes.

Ranger has some really great utility skills that work in and out of the city, so it doesn't make a great deal of difference, especially paired with the fact that guild = aptitude, not history necessarily.

I'd really like to see all races have all guild choices.

Like for instance, a d-elf burglar. Lots of wagons have locks.

Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on April 20, 2010, 12:05:54 AM
I voted yes.

Ranger has some really great utility skills that work in and out of the city, so it doesn't make a great deal of difference, especially paired with the fact that guild = aptitude, not history necessarily.

I'd really like to see all races have all guild choices.

Like for instance, a d-elf burglar. Lots of wagons have locks.

ya but if the wagon started moving you would instantly lose all your d-elf karma

Quote from: Gunnerblaster on April 19, 2010, 11:15:28 PM
I voted "No" because what would be the point of having a difference between city-elves and desert-elves? And like someone mentioned in your previous thread - A ranger is someone who lived and grew up in the wilderness. A city-elf is the complete opposite - An elf who grew up on the streets instead of the wastes, like their desert elven kin.

Desert elves have a plethora of bonuses that City elves simply do not-- most notably (and perhaps the only one of which  discussion is allowed) their ability to run in the desert.

That singular ability right there is enough to keep C-elves from being -anywhere- near as badass or desert-savvy as D-elves.

Period.

Couple that with their lack of riding ability, elven rangers would still be a few notches below rangers of any other race.

Why can't a city-bound elf be handy with a bow? Or know how to work with poisons and cures? Or be able to bandage, or look for tracks?

Like I said in the earlier thread, alot of people have figured out guild/subguild combinations that allow for a c-elf to go out hunting within reasonable walking distance from a city, so really, letting C-elves get ranger wouldn't really change all that much as it is-- spare giving them more options leading to more diverse elven characters.

Also, I've reset the poll and changed the options a little-- just for shits and giggles.

No.

A city elf should not even want to leave the city. The ones that do should be quite rare. Letting them take ranger would make them less then rare...or even less rare then they already are.

With all the dangers of the wastes, piled ontop of a city-elf's short walking range in the desert-- I -really- doubt you'd see many who leave the city any more than c-elves of other guilds.

To many leave already, no need to add even more reason to do so.

Again, the guild itself is just a collection of skills-- nothing more, nothing less. Just because a c-elf ranger sees "ranger" when he types "score" wouldn't make him any more likely to leave a city than if he were a warrior or assassin.

What would make a ranger want to leave the city in the first place? If the player of a C-elf wants to leave the city, he'll do it whether he has the ranger skillset or not.

Yup, your right, but why make it easier or safer?

And if celves could be rangers then you would have to allow delves to be assassins...not something I think would be wise.

Quote from: X-D on April 20, 2010, 12:49:30 AM
Yup, your right, but why make it easier or safer?

And if celves could be rangers then you would have to allow delves to be assassins...not something I think would be wise.

It would be no easier or safer than if you chose the right guild/subguilds which aren't at all that hard to figure out.

And we're not talking about D-elves getting any other guilds here-- this discussion is about City Elves.

But your arguement is that elves are elves and ranger skills should be learnable by a city race, if that arguement is sound then city skills should be learnable by a desert race. And the assassin skill set is quite comperable to ranger.

Quote from: X-D on April 20, 2010, 12:58:05 AM
But your arguement is that elves are elves and ranger skills should be learnable by a city race, if that arguement is sound then city skills should be learnable by a desert race. And the assassin skill set is quite comperable to ranger.

We'll discuss that issue if someone else decides to make a thread about it.

And I never once used the argument that "elves are elves", I recognize the difference between city and desert elves-- read a few of my previous posts.

Humans, dwarves-- they're allowed to have the ranger option even if their background is strictly city-bound. So there's no reason a city-slicker elf should not have access to the skills that rangers do.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 19, 2010, 11:29:31 PM

Quote from: Gunnerblaster on April 19, 2010, 11:15:28 PM
I voted "No" because what would be the point of having a difference between city-elves and desert-elves? And like someone mentioned in your previous thread - A ranger is someone who lived and grew up in the wilderness. A city-elf is the complete opposite - An elf who grew up on the streets instead of the wastes, like their desert elven kin.

This is pretty shallow thinking. I don't understand your first question at all. "What's the point in having a difference between city and desert elves?" You're saying that you don't see the point in having them be different here, but they already are, vastly... It's the exact opposite of what you should be arguing. If there could be city elf rangers the differences between city and D-elf would diminish not increase.

I've played many human class rangers who didn't grow up in the wilds, fending to survive. I've played militia soldiers as class ranger before... and all sorts of different concepts that didn't focus on being a master of desert living.

Well, I know it's pretty shallow reasoning. I'm just tired and don't really feel like arguing much about it. I just wanted to post my thoughts on why I said no. I'm not going to argue why or why not. I simply say No. Not that my opinion really matters. Just a tally of opinions.

What I meant by "What's the point" in having the two considered separate races, codedly, if city-elves can basically become desert-elves - Minus the perks D-elves get in the wastes. You basically just clarified my meaning in your post - About the whole diminishing between differences.

Quote from: Gunnerblaster on April 20, 2010, 01:09:15 AM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 19, 2010, 11:29:31 PM

Quote from: Gunnerblaster on April 19, 2010, 11:15:28 PM
I voted "No" because what would be the point of having a difference between city-elves and desert-elves? And like someone mentioned in your previous thread - A ranger is someone who lived and grew up in the wilderness. A city-elf is the complete opposite - An elf who grew up on the streets instead of the wastes, like their desert elven kin.

This is pretty shallow thinking. I don't understand your first question at all. "What's the point in having a difference between city and desert elves?" You're saying that you don't see the point in having them be different here, but they already are, vastly... It's the exact opposite of what you should be arguing. If there could be city elf rangers the differences between city and D-elf would diminish not increase.

I've played many human class rangers who didn't grow up in the wilds, fending to survive. I've played militia soldiers as class ranger before... and all sorts of different concepts that didn't focus on being a master of desert living.

Well, I know it's pretty shallow reasoning. I'm just tired and don't really feel like arguing much about it. I just wanted to post my thoughts on why I said no. I'm not going to argue why or why not. I simply say No. Not that my opinion really matters. Just a tally of opinions.

What I meant by "What's the point" in having the two considered separate races, codedly, if city-elves can basically become desert-elves - Minus the perks D-elves get in the wastes. You basically just clarified my meaning in your post - About the whole diminishing between differences.

It really wouldn't diminish the difference between C-elves and D-elves any more than a c-elf who went assassin with the hunter subguild. It truly wouldn't.

Without mounts, or d-elfs desert running, a city-elf can't go out and pwn the wastelands like desert elves can-- can't even come close. The wastes would still be just as dangerous to them as they are now. The Ranger skillset doesn't automatically make it OMGWTFICANSURVIVEINTHEDESERT, epecially now that storm navigation is more readily available.

If a rinther of any other race can pick ranger (can they? it's been a while since I pointed there), then c-elves should be able to as well.

The reasoning is that most rinthers are stuck in the alleys, just like most c-elves are stuck in the walls of their city. While most rinthers wouldn't want to leave the rinth, and most c-elves wouldn't want to leave their city, there will be a few that do. Should they be ostracized by their fellow rinthers/c-elves? Perhaps. Should they have the option to play the exception (and therefore, suffer the consequences for doing so)? Absolutely.

/votes "yes"

Edit to add: Of course, this opens the ability to allow d-elves to play the city sneak classes, which they would suck at due to their own IC restrictions, but should still be able to attempt.

There are plenty of times in this game where we have the code conform to racial traits and norms. This is one of them.

Your city elf does not have the aptitude to be a ranger. Your city elf does not WANT to be a ranger. Your city elf will never be comfortable or happy in the wastelands.

If you desperately want to play a self-hating city elf who spends every waking moment cursing the day he chose to leave the comfortable, mark-rich, easy living of the city to join his backwater redneck desert elf kinfolk, there are subguilds that can make that more tolerable from a play perspective (especially since the direction sense addition to many of them). But you will never even APPROACH ranger level because of your ingrained culture, attitudes, and breeding.

I believe this and the city elf vs desert elf thing has been brought up more than a few times over the past five years in various threads.  I don't foresee us changing position on this.  City elves (now) actually have a much better chance of attaining the skills that a desert elf ranger might have (storm code changes + direction sense), but they will not become full-fledged rangers.

Another way of looking at this is that when you pick a city elf, you are picking an entire culture of elf that is raised in urban environments.  Per documentation and established tradition, the differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result of their different lifestyles--there is only one elven race.  These differences are reinforced by the code.  They mean that desert-elves will not ever develop the skills to sneak and hide inside an urban environment.  They will not ever become assassins that skulk about in cities, because desert elves culturally do not enjoy venturing into the nasty pits of the cities and any desert elf that did enjoy this would be breaking documentation and cultural guidelines--and they'd be stored.  (As desert elf staff, I'd never sign off on a special application going against the documentation in this way, myself.)

Conversely, city elves (by documentation) are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and usually possess lighter skin tones and less musculature (but not necessarily less strength) than their desert elf kin.  They may be codedly prevented from becoming a ranger, but this coded prevention is based on the rule, not exceptions to the rule (which special applications can be used for, though I do not guarantee your success at this).  If we made all things possible in the game without any automatic coded restrictions or oversight on new applications, we could go ahead and scrap all of the documentation.  (This is hyperbolic; I only write it to make a point.)  If you have a strong case for a city elf ranger, I would suggest a special application, keeping in mind that we usually will hold to the rule rather than creating exceptions to the rule.  (You'd better have a good app, in other words.  If you do get rejected, it isn't because you suck as a player and need to quit Armageddon.  The standards are very high for playing a role so far out of the world's cultural norm.)

This is an example of a race in the game that has limits on it based on documentation reinforcement.  There are other limitations as well.  Psionicists can only be human.  Mul magick users are rare to the point of being unheard of (therefore codedly rejected, and require special applications now).  Were any player to complain that their city elves could not be psionicists, we would point to the documentation on psionicists.  Were any player to complain that they could not make a mul magicker even though they had 7 karma, we would point to the documentation on muls (and suggest they special app, which would be reviewed to high standards as well).  We also have limits that are not coded, but still enforced both culturally and through regular policing in-game.  I could go on about this, but I do not think it relates to city elves and desert elves and their coded limitations (brought about to enforce cultural documentation).

For those of you that zone out when you see more than 2 paragraphs of writing, a brief summary:
tl,dr -- nyr hates city elves and linked liek 2 million threads on it
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,19828.0.html (old)
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,31564.0.html (newer)
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,37028.0.html (far more possible with direction sense, now)

Quote from: Nyr on April 20, 2010, 09:18:35 AM
I believe this and the city elf vs desert elf thing has been brought up more than a few times over the past five years in various threads.  I don't foresee us changing position on this.  City elves (now) actually have a much better chance of attaining the skills that a desert elf ranger might have (storm code changes + direction sense), but they will not become full-fledged rangers.

Another way of looking at this is that when you pick a city elf, you are picking an entire culture of elf that is raised in urban environments.  Per documentation and established tradition, the differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result of their different lifestyles--there is only one elven race.  These differences are reinforced by the code.  They mean that desert-elves will not ever develop the skills to sneak and hide inside an urban environment.  They will not ever become assassins that skulk about in cities, because desert elves culturally do not enjoy venturing into the nasty pits of the cities and any desert elf that did enjoy this would be breaking documentation and cultural guidelines--and they'd be stored.  (As desert elf staff, I'd never sign off on a special application going against the documentation in this way, myself.)

Conversely, city elves (by documentation) are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and usually possess lighter skin tones and less musculature (but not necessarily less strength) than their desert elf kin.  They may be codedly prevented from becoming a ranger, but this coded prevention is based on the rule, not exceptions to the rule (which special applications can be used for, though I do not guarantee your success at this).  If we made all things possible in the game without any automatic coded restrictions or oversight on new applications, we could go ahead and scrap all of the documentation.  (This is hyperbolic; I only write it to make a point.)  If you have a strong case for a city elf ranger, I would suggest a special application, keeping in mind that we usually will hold to the rule rather than creating exceptions to the rule.  (You'd better have a good app, in other words.  If you do get rejected, it isn't because you suck as a player and need to quit Armageddon.  The standards are very high for playing a role so far out of the world's cultural norm.)

This is an example of a race in the game that has limits on it based on documentation reinforcement.  There are other limitations as well.  Psionicists can only be human.  Mul magick users are rare to the point of being unheard of (therefore codedly rejected, and require special applications now).  Were any player to complain that their city elves could not be psionicists, we would point to the documentation on psionicists.  Were any player to complain that they could not make a mul magicker even though they had 7 karma, we would point to the documentation on muls (and suggest they special app, which would be reviewed to high standards as well).  We also have limits that are not coded, but still enforced both culturally and through regular policing in-game.  I could go on about this, but I do not think it relates to city elves and desert elves and their coded limitations (brought about to enforce cultural documentation).

For those of you that zone out when you see more than 2 paragraphs of writing, a brief summary:
tl,dr -- nyr hates city elves and linked liek 2 million threads on it AND NYR HATES MUL MAGICKERS TOO
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,19828.0.html (old)
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,31564.0.html (newer)
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,37028.0.html (far more possible with direction sense, now)

fixed, in bold

Is that race/guild option still available though?  If so, shouldn't it be removed?

It is not available.

Using the arguement that humans and dwarves can do it, doesn't apply to elves.

Relating to RL on this one, for elves:
Recently, I read a study that showed that when high-level engineers marry another high-level engineer, they have a high ratio of giving birth to mentally handicapped children.

When you take a C-elf mother, only good at picking pockets, and a C-elf father, only good at picking pockets, chances are you will get a child only good at picking pockets.

Humans don't live in that kind of culture. Humans live in a culture where their parents could be good at anything. A noble can be good at picking pockets because, as children, they could go around picking the pockets of the lesser commoners and -noone- above that commoner would care. Humans can be good at anything.


Elves were pigeon-holed.

Quote from: Cutthroat on April 20, 2010, 08:21:18 AM

Edit to add: Of course, this opens the ability to allow d-elves to play the city sneak classes, which they would suck at due to their own IC restrictions, but should still be able to attempt.

I voted yes, but I hesitate now that i think about the awesome power that would be D-Elf assassin. I think C-Elf ranger is of limited threat, but D-Elf assassin would be omg, run.

Since we start as beginners (novice in almost every skill with some variations due to, uh, things) I don't think there should be any assumption that a character has EVER done ANY skill on their skill list unless they decide their character's history accordingly.

In this hypothetical situation, a noble starting with the pick pocket skill MAY have pick edpockets as a child.  But they're a novice.  So maybe they've never picked a pocket in their life.

Quote from: jmordetsky on April 20, 2010, 12:22:32 PM

Quote from: Cutthroat on April 20, 2010, 08:21:18 AM

Edit to add: Of course, this opens the ability to allow d-elves to play the city sneak classes, which they would suck at due to their own IC restrictions, but should still be able to attempt.

I voted yes, but I hesitate now that i think about the awesome power that would be D-Elf assassin. I think C-Elf ranger is of limited threat, but D-Elf assassin would be omg, run.

I don't like the idea of them actually being good at it either, just as a c-elf wouldn't ever be as good at rangering as their desert counterpart. It's an interesting thought to allow one and the other on a limited basis, but I understand the staff's line of reasoning on the issue. Elf has been a pretty restrictive race anyway.

Besides which, there is a HUGE "outdoor" type of zone that has nothing to do with a desert, where city-elves might find themselves, where ranger-like skills would be quite useful.

Quote from: Cavaticus on April 20, 2010, 08:59:47 AM
There are plenty of times in this game where we have the code conform to racial traits and norms. This is one of them.

Your city elf does not have the aptitude to be a ranger. Your city elf does not WANT to be a ranger. Your city elf will never be comfortable or happy in the wastelands.

If you desperately want to play a self-hating city elf who spends every waking moment cursing the day he chose to leave the comfortable, mark-rich, easy living of the city to join his backwater redneck desert elf kinfolk, there are subguilds that can make that more tolerable from a play perspective (especially since the direction sense addition to many of them). But you will never even APPROACH ranger level because of your ingrained culture, attitudes, and breeding.

Honestly.... What in the world ever happened to "play the character, not guild"?

I really wouldn't have imagined c-elf rangers leaving the city any more than c-elf assassin/hunter. I never wanted to see city-elves run out and try to be wannabe D-elves, and I doubt I ever would, because even with the ranger guild-- they'd never really be able to in the first place.

I just still don't see how a city-elf would be somehow banned from learning the same skills a ranger does. Perhaps the only reason it isn't allowed is because "ranger" is so associated with hunters who go out in the deserts and hunt stuff-- but the ranger skillset in and of itself is equally capable of supporting someone from the confines of the city. Besides, c-elves would still pretty much be confined to the city because they're not allowed to use mounts. It's not like they'll be leaving the cities by the masses-- they simply can't walk that far! They wouldn't be able to run away if some big beastie came chasing them. They'd just get killed-- and it would be pointless to try and have a c-elf try to go far out into the wastes hunt. That's why assassin/hunters and warrior/hunters don't do this already!

It would likely change absolutely nothing about how city-elves are played.

Quote from: Qzzrbl on April 20, 2010, 04:23:24 PM
Honestly.... What in the world ever happened to "play the character, not guild"?

If this is an axiom by which to play, then it still has merit.  There is a corollary to this maxim:  "play to the rule rather than to the exception."  We back this up with code.  If you want to break out of the bonds of established documentation and tradition for what a city elf role is deemed to be, please submit a special application.

Aaaand the Staff have spoken.

Thanks for swooping down from Staffland to discuss. ;D

Quote from: Nyr on April 20, 2010, 04:35:35 PM

Quote from: Qzzrbl on April 20, 2010, 04:23:24 PM
Honestly.... What in the world ever happened to "play the character, not guild"?

If this is an axiom by which to play, then it still has merit.  There is a corollary to this maxim:  "play to the rule rather than to the exception."  We back this up with code.  If you want to break out of the bonds of established documentation and tradition for what a city elf role is deemed to be, please submit a special application.

The "why's" behind your argument seem a bit weak to me. I lump this into the "city elves don't ride" argument. It's a little part of the Zalanthan bible that really when put to the test of hundreds of years of objective thought and observation would have been dumped - at least in part by some of the elven population. Other then the fact that it's in the documentation - you don't really provide a reason why city elves are this way. I think most of the people on this thread want to suspend their disbelief, which - meh - hasn't happened.

I've played elves in the byn and seriously struggled to justify why I won't ride or go outdoors and while you can pull it off, it always feels contrived, even childish. Saying: "I hate bugs. I hate sand." in a prideful manner gets old.

Coming up with some simple facts would go a long way: City elves have lost the ability to run. City elves have lower constitutions, endurance etdc and as a result the sun and wind can kill them off very fast in the desert.  I have nothing for why they won't ride but, dear god, the pride argument is so old and tired. It really all comes down to play balancing from 1952 where someone decided that city elves were too powerful if there weren't racial penalties people would just play elves and half-elves like humans.

It could be reassessed or at least rewritten so that the cultural mores were plausibly believable (or even well understood).

Off topic, but I want to point out that byn and other leaders are much more willing to take the occasional skinny for a mission when they used to.

It used to be the that the elf in the byn had to beg the sarge to come along. Which makes city elves much more tenable in my view. I still wish that elves could become employees of Kadius and Salarr though.

If you were looking for a longer explanation, I wrote one farther back in this thread.

After reading the rest of your edited post, I think your issue is that you don't like the documentation for elves.  Oh well.*

*edit:  by which I mean "that's different and I don't have anything prepared with which to respond as I am a relative newcomer to Zalanthas in comparison to anyone that may have written that documentation" not "tough shit"

Quote from: Nyr on April 20, 2010, 09:24:39 PM
If you were looking for a longer explanation, I wrote one farther back in this thread.

After reading the rest of your edited post, I think your issue is that you don't like the documentation for elves.  Oh well.*

I think the point of the thread is not liking *aspects* of the documentation for elves, questioning and discussing those aspects and if they are realistic. 

As such saying "it's this way because of the docs" is a bit of a moot point. *

*No footnote required.

Quote from: Jingo on April 20, 2010, 09:23:08 PM
I still wish that elves could become employees of Kadius and Salarr though.

I disagree there - I wouldn't want to lose the social stigma associated with race. As for having a magickal aversion to sand - meh.

I think that any clan with NPC elves in the game should also accept PC elves, although individual PC leaders' opinions on which races they would prefer to deal with may differ.

Quote from: jmordetsky on April 20, 2010, 10:29:35 PM

Quote from: Jingo on April 20, 2010, 09:23:08 PM
I still wish that elves could become employees of Kadius and Salarr though.

I disagree there - I wouldn't want to lose the social stigma associated with race. As for having a magickal aversion to sand - meh.

I think that the merchant houses would be more interested in making a buck before caring about social circumstance. Just shove the skinny beneath the table before Lord Froth comes over to visit and social taboos won't even matter.

Quote from: Cutthroat on April 20, 2010, 10:32:52 PM
I think that any clan with NPC elves in the game should also accept PC elves, although individual PC leaders' opinions on which races they would prefer to deal with may differ.

Kadius used to have a Senior Agent who was an elf.

He lived in the Cottage.

They are realistic. They are Elves, not humans, they don't think like humans or any other race for that matter. Who knows, it could be hard wired even.

All I'm saying is if you're going to stick a byn elf with no ride at least let him quit when he wants to.


Edit: I just disagree where this is taking the game. I disagree with staff on this, and find their reasoning to go against the spirit of a roleplaying game.

Quote from: Nyr on April 20, 2010, 09:18:35 AM
These differences are reinforced by the code.  They mean that desert-elves will not ever develop the skills to sneak and hide inside an urban environment.  They will not ever become assassins that skulk about in cities, because desert elves culturally do not enjoy venturing into the nasty pits of the cities and any desert elf that did enjoy this would be breaking documentation and cultural guidelines--and they'd be stored.  (As desert elf staff, I'd never sign off on a special application going against the documentation in this way, myself.)

I've read tribal documentation that has particular castes residing in cities, Nyr.  I'm not really making an argument, I just wanted to point it out to shed some counter-light on this statement that you made for anyone that might read that.  Note that none of those castes would allow a change in the current code that's available to everyone.  D-elves still couldn't burgle.

Since people insist on posting in the thread that says [ignore this one] RIGHT IN THE TITLE!  ::)

Quote from: Synthesis on April 21, 2010, 01:57:47 AM
I'm not going to argue about cultural differences between city-elves and desert-elves, because I don't think any of that has anything to do with a ranger's skillset.

Guild Ranger     (Character)

A ranger possesses two primary abilities: to aptly find their way even in storm or darkness, and to stalk and kill prey (for food). Because of the emphasis on these two things, rangers are often greatly sought after as companions in the desert.

Storms aren't unique to the desert, and neither is darkness.  Stalking and killing prey isn't unique to the desert, either.

Ranger skills involve hunting persons or animals, exceptional powers of observation, a strong aptitude for archery, and some moderate skill with weapons. Exceptional rangers are able to move silently and remain unseen in the wilderness, detect sounds from far away, work with poisons, and parry enemy blows. Rangers are also often able to rescue friends from deadly situations, bandage serious wounds, and have a well-known rapport with animals, and can ride beasts of burden from the beginning.

The only thing in this paragraph that a city-elf couldn't do in the city is ride, since wilderness sneak and hide (supposedly, at least) also work to a certain extent in the city.  Furthermore, since a city-elf wouldn't be exceptionally good at running, it seems like they might have a little extra incentive to be stealthy when outside the city.

While apparently an astonishing array of abilities, rangers are far poorer at combat than warriors, and their skills with poisons and healing powers are actually quite modest.

Rangers are usually the second easiest persons to employ, next to warriors. Any traveller would be a fool to neglect to take a ranger along as a guide, and good rangers can make large sums of money in this profession. In addition, rangers are excellent scouts and spies, able to eavesdrop without being noticed. If nothing else, rangers are superior hunters and can typically feed themselves in such places as the Grey Forest (q.v.), and can bring back skins of animals to sell.

See also:
    forage, Grey_Forest, guilds, skin

Here is one possible solution:  allow city-elves to pick the ranger guild, but change the hunt, sneak, hide, scan, and listen skills to their city-based versions.  Let everything else remain the same, and all of a sudden you have a useful guild that makes sense.  Basically, they would be assassins minus backstab (although the thug subguild would perhaps be an appropriate choice) with better archery, instead (which can be just as devastating, really).

Looking at the ranger skill tree, the only two skills that a city-elf wouldn't ever have a reason to use inside the city are charge and trample, for obvious reasons.  I think that is a strong enough case for letting them pick ranger, regardless of whatever the "ranger" guild is supposed to entail from a roleplay perspective.  Not all assassins assassinate, not all burglars burgle, not all pickpockets pick pockets, not all warriors go to war, and not all rangers range.

You know, this problem would be solved with a CLASSLESS system.
Just saying.   :D

Quote from: Sephiroto on April 21, 2010, 05:56:49 AM
I like Synthesis' idea, but I have one problem with it.  The term "ranger" implies a wilderness aspect.  A guild that has the same skills as a ranger but with the city-subset in place of wilderness is absolutely cool.   I think we should give it a different name though.  Rogue is close to what I'm thinking, but a city-ranger mix would still lack some traditional "rogue" skills off the bat.

Quote from: Sinna on April 21, 2010, 06:31:49 AM
You know, this problem would be solved with a CLASSLESS system.
Just saying.   :D

Try not to derail my thread too much pls. x]

Four rogue classes? Heh.

Though I guess one of them would deserve to start with scan.

Do burglars? I forget.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 21, 2010, 02:10:27 AM
All I'm saying is if you're going to stick a byn elf with no ride at least let him quit when he wants to.

lol +1

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 21, 2010, 02:10:27 AM
All I'm saying is if you're going to stick a byn elf with no ride at least let him quit when he wants to.


Edit: I just disagree where this is taking the game. I disagree with staff on this, and find their reasoning to go against the spirit of a roleplaying game.

I'm confused. Nothing has changed, so this is "taking the game" exactly where it's been this whole time.

Besides, just because you're playing a roleplaying game and want to play a role in a certain way doesn't mean it should be viable. It doesn't mean it should be viable. If you want to play an exception to the rule, fine; just don't expect the game world to bend over backwards to accommodate that for you.

Have you considered that it sucks to be an elf in the Byn for a reason? We shouldn't make the Byn elf role more viable than it should realistically be according to the documentation just because someone wants to play the role but thinks silly things like Elven racial roleplay and Byn clan policy are getting in the way of their precious fun.

Roleplaying isn't about doing whatever the fuck you want.

App a breed ranger/thief or some such who's grandmother was raped by a human (75% elf/25% human).
Prioritize stats to lean more towards the elf end of the spectrum. Select elf as your appeared race.

Done.  No code change needed.


PS- you still shouldn't ride mounts since he was raised elven.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on April 21, 2010, 12:02:32 PM
App a breed ranger/thief or some such who's grandmother was raped by a human (75% elf/25% human).
Prioritize stats to lean more towards the elf end of the spectrum. Select elf as your appeared race.

Done.  No code change needed.


PS- you still shouldn't ride mounts since he was raised elven.

Well, no, it's not done.

This character would still lose stamina like a human when running in the city.  This character would start with a very low allundean skill.  This character would start without the haggle skill.  This character would not be able to keep up with any real elves he tried to run with.  Certain racist NPCs in certain areas of the game would instantly know he wasn't an elf and would do mean things to him.  This character (presumably) could still enter the Trader's Inn.

In short, he wouldn't be an elf.

The fix is really quite simple:  let city-elves pick the ranger skillset.  It's a versatile skillset that is equally suited to city applications as to desert applications.

If you want to get more complicated, change the dual-version skills to the city versions when combined with the city-elf race.

As I said earlier, there are only three skills in the ranger skill tree that city-elves could not possibly ever learn or find useful.  The desert_quit option is the only perk that rangers get that maybe would be a little weird, but certainly no weirder than city-elf merchants starting with pilot, and if desert_quit works in the sewers and/or whatever may or may not be left of UnderTuluk, it would make perfect sense, anyway.

Quote from: hyzhenhok on April 21, 2010, 11:34:45 AM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 21, 2010, 02:10:27 AM
All I'm saying is if you're going to stick a byn elf with no ride at least let him quit when he wants to.


Edit: I just disagree where this is taking the game. I disagree with staff on this, and find their reasoning to go against the spirit of a roleplaying game.

I'm confused. Nothing has changed, so this is "taking the game" exactly where it's been this whole time.

Besides, just because you're playing a roleplaying game and want to play a role in a certain way doesn't mean it should be viable. It doesn't mean it should be viable. If you want to play an exception to the rule, fine; just don't expect the game world to bend over backwards to accommodate that for you.

Have you considered that it sucks to be an elf in the Byn for a reason? We shouldn't make the Byn elf role more viable than it should realistically be according to the documentation just because someone wants to play the role but thinks silly things like Elven racial roleplay and Byn clan policy are getting in the way of their precious fun.

Roleplaying isn't about doing whatever the fuck you want.

Wanna bet (;?

Quote from: Saellyn on April 21, 2010, 01:02:11 PM

Quote from: hyzhenhok on April 21, 2010, 11:34:45 AM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 21, 2010, 02:10:27 AM
All I'm saying is if you're going to stick a byn elf with no ride at least let him quit when he wants to.


Edit: I just disagree where this is taking the game. I disagree with staff on this, and find their reasoning to go against the spirit of a roleplaying game.

I'm confused. Nothing has changed, so this is "taking the game" exactly where it's been this whole time.

Besides, just because you're playing a roleplaying game and want to play a role in a certain way doesn't mean it should be viable. It doesn't mean it should be viable. If you want to play an exception to the rule, fine; just don't expect the game world to bend over backwards to accommodate that for you.

Have you considered that it sucks to be an elf in the Byn for a reason? We shouldn't make the Byn elf role more viable than it should realistically be according to the documentation just because someone wants to play the role but thinks silly things like Elven racial roleplay and Byn clan policy are getting in the way of their precious fun.

Roleplaying isn't about doing whatever the fuck you want.

Wanna bet (;?

Yes.

I would like to roleplay a really sweet mullish sorcerer-psionicist who spends his time meddling in other peoples' affairs, showing up dramatically for the deus ex machina moment when our heroic thief has been captured by a templar, or to protect a waylaid damsel from a horde of gith or a rioting crowd (obviously he would be powerful enough to act in the city states with impunity; he just doesn't have his own city-state because he's noble like that). I'm sure I could roleplay this character realistically, give him a real personality and make him really cool. He really would add to the game world.

He would just add to the game world in entirely the wrong way, and thus wouldn't be allowed. As much as I would love to play this tricked out concept, complaints that the coded game world is stifling my creativity would not be entertained.

The problem with your argument is that you're saying just because an elf is using a certain guild he's going to play a certain way. I find that to be so incredibly against the spirit of roleplaying it's ridiculous. The player is going to play the character how he wants. Regardless of guild choice. I don't play all my warriors to be Gage Gritshaw's. I don't play all my rangers as desert-wayward rugged badasses. And if you are playing like that, then ... why? It's so limiting.

A roleplaying game is about being a character, the skills we get in game shouldn't affect that character.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 21, 2010, 01:51:04 PM
The problem with your argument is that you're saying just because an elf is using a certain guild he's going to play a certain way. I find that to be so incredibly against the spirit of roleplaying it's ridiculous. The player is going to play the character how he wants. Regardless of guild choice. I don't play all my warriors to be Gage Gritshaw's. I don't play all my rangers as desert-wayward rugged badasses. And if you are playing like that, then ... why? It's so limiting.

A roleplaying game is about being a character, the skills we get in game shouldn't affect that character.

Agree again. Also - we needn't adhere to everything that's in the docs *just* because it's in the docs. Questioning is good.

Quote from: jmordetsky on April 21, 2010, 04:55:59 PM
Agree again. Also - we needn't adhere to everything that's in the docs *just* because it's in the docs. Questioning is good.

(Pedantically: yes, we must adhere to everything that's in the docs just because it's in the docs, but questioning the docs in hope of revising them is perfectly good.)

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 21, 2010, 01:51:04 PM
The problem with your argument is that you're saying just because an elf is using a certain guild he's going to play a certain way. I find that to be so incredibly against the spirit of roleplaying it's ridiculous. The player is going to play the character how he wants. Regardless of guild choice. I don't play all my warriors to be Gage Gritshaw's. I don't play all my rangers as desert-wayward rugged badasses. And if you are playing like that, then ... why? It's so limiting.

A roleplaying game is about being a character, the skills we get in game shouldn't affect that character.

Why are you accusing me of something I never even alluded to?

I never argued you have to play a guild a specific way. I argued that it is not the job of the code to facilitate players who wish to break the mold, play the exception, go against the documentation, etc. It is fully possible for you to do so despite the current coded limitations that are in place.

If you think that the bar against elven rangers impinges on your creative leeway, then you are the one who has pidgeonholed the guilds. If the guild does not make the character, then the character does not need the guild. The only way I could see your point is if your concept absolutely demands the ranger skillset, in which case you can make a special application. Otherwise, you should be able to find a way to make your concept work without the ranger guild.

Otherwise, I see such blocks as things that boost creativity. You look at the reality of the game world, see "oh, this is not a viable thing...but what about this?" and then you go out and do something awesome. You put a twist on it. You find a way within the confines of the world we're playing in to do what you want to do, without simply breaking down the documented blocks because they "stifle your creativity." This contributes to a richer world.

You're limiting your discussion and denying parallel discussions?  Good job.  I stopped reading after X-D pointing out that if c.elves are allowed to take ranger, it follows that d.elves should be allowed access to the guild choices that they are denied.  If the logic for one is valid, the logic for the other is valid.  If c.elves are given ranger without d.elves being given the city sneak guilds, I would be very upset, actually.  If c.elves are given ranger and d.elves are given access to the city sneak guilds... the world is going to get STUPID dangerous really quick.  I don't think you understand how scary a d.elf assassin would be.  D.elf rangers are bad enough when played by an experienced player.

I would totally love it if there was a "stupid dangerous" d-elf assassin. Make it a higher karma requirement, and even more, make it take up both guild and subguild. So if you pick desert elf, and assassin as your guild, you don't get a subguild. But you'd get everything that comes with desert elf, and everything that comes with assassin.

I'd say require the same karma as a krathi.

I'd love that. I'd play it, AND I'd get a total rush being pursued by it, if I was its victim. SO much more interesting than random raptor #7.

Quote from: spawnloser on April 26, 2010, 11:26:19 AM
You're limiting your discussion and denying parallel discussions?  Good job.  I stopped reading after X-D pointing out that if c.elves are allowed to take ranger, it follows that d.elves should be allowed access to the guild choices that they are denied.  If the logic for one is valid, the logic for the other is valid.  If c.elves are given ranger without d.elves being given the city sneak guilds, I would be very upset, actually.  If c.elves are given ranger and d.elves are given access to the city sneak guilds... the world is going to get STUPID dangerous really quick.  I don't think you understand how scary a d.elf assassin would be.  D.elf rangers are bad enough when played by an experienced player.

Yes, I'm trying to limit discussion and  parallel discussions in my thread.

If you want to talk about D-elf assassins, make another thread about it-- don't discuss it in here. I didn't make this thread to talk about D-elves and sneaky guilds, I made it to talk about elves and rangers.

And if C-elves were ever eventually allowed to make rangers, that wouldn't mean the same would have to be done with D-elves and sneaky guilds.

D-elves are a whole 'nother creature-- and karma-required at that, they've got their own little set of rules because of that.

If I didn't deny discussion on the subject of D-elves, this thread would derail into, "Well why do you think C-elves should get the ranger guild, but not D-elves assassins?!?!!"

D-elves get way more perks than C-elves-- that's why they're a karma-required race. And that's why they're not allowed to have city sneaky guilds. Because it's pretty much in the D-elf handguide that D-elves don't spend any more time in the city than they need to. D-elves don't go into cities often, at all, because that's how they're supposed to be played. Not to mention they'd be ridiculously powerful.

C-elves, on the other hand, can go out into the wastes if they so chose to do so, and many have and still do, using guild/subguild combinations to make a watered-down pseudo-ranger.

My suggestion of allowing c-elves to become rangers wouldn't make them be able to do any more or less than they do already. They wouldn't be any more dangerous than your average assassin/hunter c-elf, and all that topped off with no desert-run ability, and unable to ride mounts, they'd be pretty much city-bound anyhow.

-Alot- of skills that come with the ranger guild make sense in a strictly city-bound setting. Bandaging,  poisoning, listen, scan, sneaking, etc., etc., etc.

When a poster creates a thread with a specific topic (like this one) the OP usually desires the resulting discussion to be on-topic.  Because that's what the thread was started for.

Qzzrbl has absolute right to request that the thread stays on topic, Spawnloser.  Please respect his desires and keep this thread on topic.

I will now walk away from this discussion without giving any input as to my views on the topic.



Ha.  Ha ha.  Ha ha ha.

QuoteMy suggestion of allowing c-elves to become rangers wouldn't make them be able to do any more or less than they do already. They wouldn't be any more dangerous than your average assassin/hunter c-elf, and all that topped off with no desert-run ability, and unable to ride mounts, they'd be pretty much city-bound anyhow.

You are so very very VERY wrong on that point. (hence Shals laughter by the way)

Without getting into code specifics. A celf ranger would be the top of the food chain in the wilderness assuming the player knew anything at all,

I understand his desire, Looon, but I would maintain that the two discussions are inextricably linked and requesting them to be separated is futile.  Quite a few people would feel the need to post the same thing in both threads because they/we maintain that they are the same argument/discussion.  I/we think that the request to have them be separate is silly.

I agree with spawnloser. I believe these arguements are one and the same. You cannot use the arguement that you should play the character, not the guild and then turn around and say that the guild is too powerful.

I could easily say that any player can make the ranger guild the most dangerous thing. I have known a lot more dangerous rangers than I have known dangerous assassin guilds.

I am in favor of both guilds being given the the guilds. I am in favor of the play the character and not the guild. I am also in favor of giving C-elves massive negatives to wilderness hide and sneak and the massive negatives to a D-Elf city sneak and hide.

I still think a c-elf should have the option of making a home in the city wilderness.

Quote from: X-D on April 26, 2010, 05:13:42 PM

QuoteMy suggestion of allowing c-elves to become rangers wouldn't make them be able to do any more or less than they do already. They wouldn't be any more dangerous than your average assassin/hunter c-elf, and all that topped off with no desert-run ability, and unable to ride mounts, they'd be pretty much city-bound anyhow.

You are so very very VERY wrong on that point. (hence Shals laughter by the way)

Without getting into code specifics. A celf ranger would be the top of the food chain in the wilderness assuming the player knew anything at all,

Assuming the player knew anything at all.... Hm.... Lemme think on that.

Going over the elf docs, here's what I can gather as far as positive racial abilities and the like go.

They're physically weaker than most races. Their agility is better than a human's. The docs say that they live by their quick fingers, and go on to say that they have "abilities" to compensate for their drawbacks.

Okay.

So they're not as strong as humans or dwarves.
They're a bit faster than half-elves.
And they have an ability or two which aren't terribly hard to figure out, and would likely have very little bearing on their badassery in the wastes.

Now let's go over their drawbacks-- one in particular is a doozy.

They have to do everything on -foot-.

Have you ever seen a ranger IG (besides D-elves) that have never used a mount in the entirety of their character's lives?

I know I sure haven't, and I'd imagine those that would ever attempt to make a desert-dwelling badass without a ride of any sort would not last very long at all.

Let's recap here....

Rangers of every other race (spare Desert Elves): Can ride about the wastes willy-nilly and destroy stuff with trample.

City Elf rangers: Have to hoof around on foot for everything, rest frequently, can't use trample, low strength, would be at a disadvantage when facing a pack of raptors or the mounted raider.

Now just for shits and giggles....

City Elf assassin: Have to hoof around on foot for everything, rest frequently, can't use trample, low strength, would be at a disadvantage when facing a pack of raptors or the mounted raider....

Maybe I'm missing something, I'm still learning bits and pieces about the game every day, but it kinda seems like the C-elf ranger's getting the raw end of the deal, and  could never stack up to rangers of other races.

But then why am I debating the matter?

The ranger guild just has an incredibly versatile skillset. Bandaging, decent combat skills, poison, watch, listen, etc.-- city-elves can already get most of this with the proper guild/subguild anyhow, and I'm just failing to see why they're not allowed to make rangers.

Again, I'm probably ignorant to something glaringly obvious as to why city-elf rangers would be so horrible, but after much searching, I simply can't figure it out.

Quote from: Delstro on April 26, 2010, 08:57:54 PM
You cannot use the arguement that you should play the character, not the guild and then turn around and say that the guild is too powerful.

I see now that my thought process on that matter probably doesn't make sense, but desert-elves are a karma-restricted race. You pretty much -have- to play them a certain way, else they wouldn't be karma restricted. Seeing that desert-elf play is the way it is, it actually makes sense that they wouldn't have access to certain guilds-- but in another sense, it might not make sense that a d-elf would never, ever be able to learn backstab. But whatever, they're karma-restricted. Tough beans.

Maybe it's just my backwards way of thinking, but I don't believe zero-karma races should have a restriction like this.

QuoteHave you ever seen a ranger IG (besides D-elves) that have never used a mount in the entirety of their character's lives?

I've had 4 so far. 1 HG 2 dwarves and a breed. the dwarves lived past 30 days and 6 months and so did the HG, I hated the breed (but not because of stats).

The other three were quite brutal and had certain advantages that come from not using a mount.



As for the rest of your post, it is moot, the arguments are based on things that are either untrue or ignoring other things that MORE then balance out the drawbacks.

QuoteAgain, I'm probably ignorant to something glaringly obvious as to why city-elf rangers would be so horrible, but after much searching, I simply can't figure it out.

You are, but GDB rules prohibit anybody from stating them.

I think the thinking around city elves at the time was that city elves live in the city, desert elves in the desert, so the city elf would not have the opportunity to pick up what is required to be a ranger.

I would be fine with that...if nobles likewise were not allowed to pick ranger as a guild.

Personally, my longest lived rinthi character (which didn't really live that long) was a ranger, and I found the guild -quite- useful for that environment at the time.

Humans are not as xenophobic as elves are.

Humans could have been a productive ranger as a young lad, but then ran onto rough times and ended up in the Rinth.
City elves grew up in the city and grew up either crafting for their tribe, or bringing in coin and material via theft, conning, or taking advantage of humans. In a lawless place known as the Rinth, I believe that death wouldn't be as common as PCs demonstrate. If this were real life, there would be a great many shows of force and a lot less violent. Much like how I've seen two Iraqi men stand on opposite sides of the street and yell at each other everything they could think of, from killing and raping their entire family, to stoning them to death, and then walk away without a single act of violence.

A tribeless city elf probably grew up fast doing whatever they could to get by. They, most likely, attached themselves to any trusting human or half-elf group they could because, again, humans are less xenophobic than any other humanoid available and breeds just want to be loved (Over simplification, I know.). Half elves would bond really well to a tribeless elf because that would make the breed feel like they were needed and wanted.

A tribeless desert elf would die quickly. What ever resource they used, would be considered theft. Every theft of resources could end up killing a member of an actual tribe. Any theft by a loner would be met with life and death situations where the tribeless must make up for the loss.

The main reason C-elves should be allowed the use of the guild ranger is because, they could learn most of the skills involved with the ranger. A PC desert elf tribe has a game where the young try and mount a beast for the joy of taming it. Are they riding it? Yes, but not to get around. Would a city elf use a mount to carry the bulk of their items? Yes, but I don't ever see it. If you were running, could you carry the reigns of more than one beast easier than if you were riding on a beast three times as tall as the ones you are pulling? Yes.

The main reason a desert elf should get assassin is because backstab isn't some mythical skill where you magick yourself behind someone and then stab them in the back. Et tu Brute and shit. Hiding and sneaking in the desert should be a lot more limited than it is now. We should make it impossible for a desert elf to hide, sneak, and then backstab. This is so because in most places of the known, you are surrounded by a lot of open, sparsely spaced vegitation. You would be given the chance to hear someone running up to you from the nearest bush. You would rarely never hear them before they planted a spike between your shoulder blades.

In short, C-elves should only get city hide and sneak. Desert elves should only get wilderness hide and sneak.

Quote from: X-D on April 26, 2010, 11:37:58 PM

QuoteHave you ever seen a ranger IG (besides D-elves) that have never used a mount in the entirety of their character's lives?

I've had 4 so far. 1 HG 2 dwarves and a breed. the dwarves lived past 30 days and 6 months and so did the HG, I hated the breed (but not because of stats).

The other three were quite brutal and had certain advantages that come from not using a mount.



As for the rest of your post, it is moot, the arguments are based on things that are either untrue or ignoring other things that MORE then balance out the drawbacks.

QuoteAgain, I'm probably ignorant to something glaringly obvious as to why city-elf rangers would be so horrible, but after much searching, I simply can't figure it out.

You are, but GDB rules prohibit anybody from stating them.

Mmm.... I'd disagree with that the arguments are untrue, with maybe the exception where I said many rangers couldn't survive out in the wasted without a mount.

And those other things I seem to have ignored-- I just don't know about 'em. :<

But, like I said earlier, the Staff doesn't seem privvy on giving C-elves the ranger guild anyhow. So....

-shrug-

Oh wells. x]

Whether you want to disagree or not, Qzzrbl, what X-D says is true.  C.elf rangers and d.elf assassins would both be totally broken in a coded fashion that you may not understand but others do.  You'll have to trust us.

Funny, I don't remember tons of c-elf rangers running around when it was possible.  Although I do remember some comments about a d-elf assassin that was supposedly absolutely badass, back before the current guild restrictions.

That's because while c.elf rangers are bad ass, they aren't nearly as mobile as any other rangers.  That one limitation was a deal-breaker for most people, and would probably continue to be one.  There are people that know what they're doing with such a character, though.

Dammit, now I really want to know what would make celf rangers totally broken. :curiosity:

Quote from: spicemustflow on April 28, 2010, 02:35:53 PM
Dammit, now I really want to know what would make celf rangers totally broken. :curiosity:

(Flames edited out by Niamh.)

For content:  I don't see any reason for c-elves not to get it, the parallel between the assassin that uses a bow vs the assassin that uses backstab is a good one.  But, it would still be /odd/ to see a c-elf trying to survive in the wastes, and it would be, rightly, ridiculed.

Wow, nearly 10 years so, what 7 or 8, that makes you a newb compared to either one of us.

Though, when you were just starting or a year or two before that depending on just how close to ten years you are, it was possible to play a celf ranger...though if caught and staff was feeling friendly that would be switched to delf ranger. Though I do know of one that lasted almost a month before getting caught. Which is why I know how unbalanced they can be on at least one point, I've seen it.

Nice Troll though buddy, why did you not post it on your normal GDB account?

Not only is the race/guild combo itself fairly whack but I would argue that if c-elf got ranger than d-elf should get assassin back. Then nobody would be happy. Not anyone that wanted to go for a ride through the wilderness anyway.

And for those saying play the character and not the guild, nice words but unfortunately I doubt it would work out that way. Most players enjoy using their skills. Just my  2 sids.

Quote from: Majikal on May 02, 2010, 04:15:56 AM
Most players enjoy using their skills.

Isn't that the truth.

Yes: 17
No: 40

Think the thread is pretty much over.

Quote from: Twilight on April 26, 2010, 11:45:47 PM
I would be fine with that...if nobles likewise were not allowed to pick ranger as a guild.

I actually would also like to see more strident guild restrictions on nobles too–though this is not to say that there's an egregious problem in-game. But if a noble's taking anything other than merchant, assassin, or maaaaybe warrior, they should have to make a very strong case. Rangers, burglars and pickpockets all start with some very ignoble skills, if you'll forgive the pun.

And yeah, as mentioned above I am certainly not in favour of anything that ever opens up the desert-elf-assassin box. Assassins roaming the wilds on foot can be incredibly powerful if they don't really have to worry about stamina.

Actually, after Merchant, I think Pick-Pocket is the most appropriate guild choice for a noble.  Sneaking around an estate, sticking their greedy little fingers where they don't belong to take things from some family member when his/her back is turned?  Sounds perfect to me, actually.

Quote from: spawnloser on May 13, 2010, 03:10:12 PM
Actually, after Merchant, I think Pick-Pocket is the most appropriate guild choice for a noble.  Sneaking around an estate, sticking their greedy little fingers where they don't belong to take things from some family member when his/her back is turned?  Sounds perfect to me, actually.

Nobles understanding and practiced in the fine art of pickpocketing? Pfft, even in Tuluk the idea is a bit silly. I'd still be pleased to see nobles receive a more specialized skillset determined by backgrounds/clan.

/derail

Um, I think you're using 'practiced' in some strange way that I don't understand.  Why couldn't they have practice sneaking around the estate and stealing from their extended family small things?  Sure, they would probably never master the art and will never be a Rinthi, but who cares?  They could still have and use the skills and get practice at them in ways that are realistic.

Yeah I wouldn't consider any starting skills as practiced. By any means.

Guild pickpocket with starting steal skill, still considered someone practiced in the art of pickpocketing, by no means is it reliable, or amazing, but it's still impressive to some regard.

Guild warrior without the starting steal skill would be someone I'd consider unpracticed... there would be a very, very noticeable difference between the two trying to nick coins out of the pockets of others.

Nobles (without a very specific background) shouldn't have the aptitude of the guilds so often chosen, most commonly pickpocket.

Now we're just in disagreement.

How the hell did discussion for the noble guild wind up in here? o-O

The thing that stands out to me in all this nay-saying is that, if urban human communities have members who are trained to bring food and materials back to their families, why wouldn't urban elven communities do the same. Sure, some of this would be handled through theft from market stalls or even directly from non-tribe rangers, but elves are industrious in their methods. It seems strange to me that city-bred elves would be racially deterred from learning to survive in the wilderness when no other urbanized race has such a restriction.

QuoteCity-elf: I never leave the city.
Human: But I can show you where too look for water.
City-elf: Nope, not listening. La-la-la-la.

One barrier to c-elves being rangers is transportation.  They can't run like a d-elf, but won't ride mounts either.


Also, are you saying "human communities" as in like "Allanak" or "Tuluk"?  If so, you should consider that c-elves are part of those communities too, and there's nothing stopping them from buying food and water just like most c-humans do.

Quote from: Bilanthri on July 08, 2010, 03:48:28 PM
The thing that stands out to me in all this nay-saying is that, if urban human communities have members who are trained to bring food and materials back to their families, why wouldn't urban elven communities do the same. Sure, some of this would be handled through theft from market stalls or even directly from non-tribe rangers, but elves are industrious in their methods. It seems strange to me that city-bred elves would be racially deterred from learning to survive in the wilderness when no other urbanized race has such a restriction.

The adjective city denotes the city is their means of survival. To me, it doesn't seem strange that they've abandoned their tribal traditions of hunting and gathering when they safely settled into a city. Hm, a city elf ranger actually would be a burglar.
>forage apartment
You look around and find a pair of grey hide boots.

Seriously though, I would imagine a city elf ranger to be SHOULD be rare but not impossible. I voted no because it just wouldn't be reasonable to me for your average city elf to go back to their tribal roots and take up the trade of a ranger. Looking to what Moe said, if they really wanted extremely long travel times, highly limited mobility, and to be at a general disadvantage compared to humans, someone could always use the special application tool to apply for one.

Quote from: Mazy on July 08, 2010, 04:11:48 PM
Seriously though, I would imagine a city elf ranger to be SHOULD be rare but not impossible. I voted no because it just wouldn't be reasonable to me for your average city elf to go back to their tribal roots and take up the trade of a ranger. As Moe said, if they really wanted extremely long travel times, highly limited mobility, and to be at a general disadvantage compared to humans, someone could always use the special application tool to apply for one.

I discussed the outdoor travel aspects of city-elves here: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,38965.0.html (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,38965.0.html)

I still think there should be some middle ground between city-elves outdoor movement and desert elves, as it makes absolutely no sense for city-elves to be too proud of their non-existent running ability to ride a mount.
But instead of beating that dead horse, if c-elf rangers were to be allowed rarely, then they should be either spec apped, or perhaps set at a certain karma level.
In addition, since they would have spent alot of time outdoors learning and training their ranger skills and abilities, and to make up for their lack of ride and the associated benefits of that, they should get some partial d-elf running ability. Such as reduced movement cost for roads, or even able to run on roads for the same cost as walking, just something to balance them, which can easily be explained by their unusual amount of time spent outdoors.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on July 08, 2010, 04:06:32 PM
Also, are you saying "human communities" as in like "Allanak" or "Tuluk"?  If so, you should consider that c-elves are part of those communities too, and there's nothing stopping them from buying food and water just like most c-humans do.

Allanak and Tuluk are what I would consider super-communities, made up of sub-communities that are racially, socially, economically, or geographically defined.

A tribe of c-elves living in the Tuluki warrens are a community in and of themselves, though they are also a component of the larger Warrens community, which in turn is a portion of the community made up of Tuluki citizens. Each of these community layers has its own set of "rules" that members must conform to.

Example: The elven tribe would view theft as viable and rewarding, but when interacting as members of the Warrens community the attitude must take into account more than just an elven mindset, though, being equally poor, theft would still be viewed as viable. However, the larger community of Tuluki citizens do not see theft as viable as this community also incorporates free merchants and other types that would not take kindly to having their goods stolen.

For me, the way C-elves are handled falls into the same category as the way that Vivaduans are loathed or killed on sight by the thirsting masses of a desert planet.  I'm not talking here about the cool c-elf tribes that were added (and that were greatly needed), but rather the fact that c-elves are somehow genetically proud of their genetic inability to run in the desert and that a race that can adapt to city life cannot, like all the other races, adapt back to desert life.  A dwarf or human that has lived all their life in the city or farming in Menos (RIP), can stroll out and be a ranger in the sands.  Elves have a brain disease that makes this impossible.  This mental deformity also makes them fiercely, suicidally proud of abilities they don't have - a trait, you would think, that would get weeded out pretty quick by natural selection on a world like Zalanthas.

It doesn't make sense.  You'll see all sorts of convoluted justifications.  Lots of twisting semantics.  But it just flat out doesn't make sense.  It's one of the Wookiees of Zalanthas.

However, a major portion of the playerbase and all of the staff love it.  It is "flavor" and it's part of the quirky, weird charm of Armageddon.  There is, in my opinion, nothing to be gained other than frustration with the game if you struggle against it.  I found that once I just decided not to care at all about the things that make zero sense but rather to move on from them and just not think about them, the rest of the game became more enjoyable.

Quote from: Thunkkin on July 08, 2010, 05:17:28 PM
c-elves are somehow genetically proud of their genetic inability to run in the desert

I'm no elf expert, and maybe I'm just repeating what's been said better in this thread, but I'd put it this way:

City elves are genetically proud of their genetic ability to run in the city, and the desert does not interest them.

Quote from: Thunkkin on July 08, 2010, 05:17:28 PMElves have a brain disease that makes this impossible.  This mental deformity also makes them fiercely, suicidally proud of abilities they don't have

Bingo.

Quote- a trait, you would think, that would get weeded out pretty quick by natural selection on a world like Zalanthas.

In a world like Zalanthas, yes.

However, in a world like Allanak or Tuluk, no.  Your ability to acquire food in Allanak or Tuluk isn't strongly dependant on your ability to run or ride a mount.  It's depends on your ability to acquire coin.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on July 08, 2010, 05:42:20 PM
Your ability to acquire food in Allanak or Tuluk isn't strongly dependant on your ability to run or ride a mount.  It's depends on your ability to acquire coin.

I'm gonna have to agree with this, fringe c-elf hunters aside. The major source of economy for city elves should be the city.

I think what catches in my craw is the idea that a race as idealistically free as elves are so dramatically pigeon-holed into this rigid geographical mindset. I thought that was the sort of thing that made -dwarves- so unique.

Quote from: Bilanthri on July 08, 2010, 06:19:58 PM

Quote from: Marauder Moe on July 08, 2010, 05:42:20 PM
Your ability to acquire food in Allanak or Tuluk isn't strongly dependant on your ability to run or ride a mount.  It's depends on your ability to acquire coin.

I'm gonna have to agree with this, fringe c-elf hunters aside. The major source of economy for city elves should be the city.

I think what catches in my craw is the idea that a race as idealistically free as elves are so dramatically pigeon-holed into this rigid geographical mindset. I thought that was the sort of thing that made -dwarves- so unique.

They aren't idealistically free. They are almost as bound by their pride in being able to run and steal, as a dwarf is to his focus.

An elf is to not riding, as a dwarf is to not abandoning his focus.

Quote from: Dan on July 08, 2010, 06:26:20 PM

Quote from: Bilanthri on July 08, 2010, 06:19:58 PM

Quote from: Marauder Moe on July 08, 2010, 05:42:20 PM
Your ability to acquire food in Allanak or Tuluk isn't strongly dependant on your ability to run or ride a mount.  It's depends on your ability to acquire coin.

I'm gonna have to agree with this, fringe c-elf hunters aside. The major source of economy for city elves should be the city.

I think what catches in my craw is the idea that a race as idealistically free as elves are so dramatically pigeon-holed into this rigid geographical mindset. I thought that was the sort of thing that made -dwarves- so unique.

They aren't idealistically free. They are almost as bound by their pride in being able to run and steal, as a dwarf is to his focus.

An elf is to not riding, as a dwarf is to not abandoning his focus.

Hmm...I should have said, "bound to an idealism of freedom". You know, running, taking what's not yours, lying when it suits you...all reflections of a fervent sense of freedom. But, it's true that elves walk a fine line between reckless abandon and devout loyalty.

Quote from: Mazy on July 08, 2010, 04:11:48 PMThe adjective city denotes the city is their means of survival. To me, it doesn't seem strange that they've abandoned their tribal traditions of hunting and gathering when they safely settled into a city. Hm, a city elf ranger actually would be a burglar.

This is a good way to look at it.

Quote from: Thunkkin on July 08, 2010, 05:17:28 PM...c-elves are somehow genetically proud of their genetic inability to run in the desert
<snip>
Elves have a brain disease that makes this impossible.  This mental deformity also makes them fiercely, suicidally proud of abilities they don't have - a trait, you would think, that would get weeded out pretty quick by natural selection on a world like Zalanthas.

This is not.  They are not "proud of their ability to run in the wilderness" but simply their "ability to run".

Also, actually, pick-pockets are the ones tracking their prey through the city, so they would be rangers/hunters while burglars would be rangers/scavengers for city elves.  It's a completely different mindset.  I hate to say it and sound superior, but if you think a c.elf (in the current incarnation) should be able to be a wilderness class, you don't understand the city elf mindset as well as others do.

Saying that, understand that I think the game would be better if there was no differentiation between the two at all, that they were one race that simply have homebases in different situations, but oh well.  In that situation, they'd have the same racial advantages but would still be limited by class, not by code but by policy.

Quote from: spawnloser on July 08, 2010, 06:48:30 PM
They are not "proud of their ability to run in the wilderness" but simply their "ability to run".

False distinction.  Their pride in their ability to run extends to their (lack of) ability to run in the desert.  If it didn't, they'd ride in the desert.

Quote
I hate to say it and sound superior, but if you think a c.elf (in the current incarnation) should be able to be a wilderness class, you don't understand the city elf mindset as well as others do.

I'm not saying they should be a wilderness race, necessarily.  I'm just saying that their refusal to ride when they cannot run is nonsensical.  Yes, it's a racial trait.  And as I said, I "accept" it and just play it.  But it doesn't make sense.  At all.

Quote
Saying that, understand that I think the game would be better if there was no differentiation between the two at all, that they were one race that simply have homebases in different situations, but oh well.  In that situation, they'd have the same racial advantages but would still be limited by class, not by code but by policy.

What you just wrote there is what makes sense to me.   The way it is, doesn't.  But as I clearly said, I accept it.  Some things don't make sense and it's better not to struggle against it.  My post was saying, "enjoy the game for what it is even if some things don't make sense."  I wasn't trying prove my case to an audience that obviously (by a 2 to 1 margin) disagrees with me.

This is how I personally deal with the running thing: Elves are extremely proud, as we all know. They simply will not let themselves be carried by anything other than their own two feet. I've never looked at it as "I don't ride because I'm already awesome at running in the wilds", but rather "I don't ride because I'm too cool for school".

The pride exhibited by c-elves in regard to running makes me think of the pride that people of Irish descent exhibit in regards to drinking.

The ability to drink large quantities of alcohol predominantly stemmed from the dark ages when the majority of Europeans produced light alcohols for daily consumption. The issue was ground water...drinking it could lead to a variety of potentially fatal illnesses, so brewing, fermenting, and, eventually, distilling, became requirements for healthy living. Even children consumed these light wines and beers, since their health was of the utmost importance.

So, 800 years ago, most Europeans had developed quite a tolerance for alcohol...it was an inevitable side-effect of adapting to this lifestyle. Do the Irish, scattered to the four corners of the globe, still possess a racial tolerance for drinking? Perhaps, though it would be a pale shadow of their, once indomitable, ability. And yet, in any "Irish" pub in the US, there are countless louts who drunkenly extol their supreme drinking ability, when, in comparison to their ancestors, they are light-weights.

Quote from: Thunkkin on July 08, 2010, 07:11:42 PM

Quote from: spawnloser on July 08, 2010, 06:48:30 PMThey are not "proud of their ability to run in the wilderness" but simply their "ability to run".

False distinction.  Their pride in their ability to run extends to their (lack of) ability to run in the desert.  If it didn't, they'd ride in the desert.

I don't think so.  There is a difference, as Spoon said, between having pride in an ability and being too proud to do something.

Considering that elves are considerably faster than humans.

Being a law-breaker by birth and having long legs when you are being chased by a heavily armored, short leg sounds like you would have pride in being able to run.

Just to note, since it hasn't been said recently, c.elves can run better than humans already.

Since the C-Elves wouldn't:
Go from city to city
Benefit from evading the law on an inix.

They would benefit from:
Benefit from having a slow, unsuspecting prey.
Benefit from having long legs.

C-elves don't have to run across the city to escape the law (in Theory), they just have to get to that next set of two corners.