We need a subguild with ranger 'vision': The ability to navigate all but the worst of storms.
QuoteSubguild Caravan Guide (Character)
Caravan guides are skilled in desert travel, whether it be on a mount or piloting a wagon. They are skilled in assessing goods, and most have learned at least a smattering of the nomadic tongue.
See Also:
guilds, subguilds
I think Caravan Guide should be the one.
Comments? Staff opinion?
Totally agree. I would feel so much more comfortable about playing a desert-elf NON-ranger, if I had ranger-vision. Someone who is born "out there," spends their entire lives "out there" and does most of his business "out there" should know more about "out there" than any city-bred human fuck-twat even on his best rangering day.
Alternately, give desert elves ranger vision.
I think Ive suggested this before. Good idea.
All the subguilds Hunter/Nomad/Caravan Guard/Scavanger could fit.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on November 16, 2009, 08:15:00 AM
We need a subguild with ranger 'vision': The ability to navigate all but the worst of storms.
QuoteSubguild Caravan Guide (Character)
Caravan guides are skilled in desert travel, whether it be on a mount or piloting a wagon.
Totally agree. Rangers still have perks a-plenty (including desert quit), and this would make them a tad less sniffable. Cap it so that, unlike proper rangers, they still have to hunker down when the weather gets to "blinding, biting sand" or so.
This would open up some nice new concepts. And it puts my view of Caravan Guide at "tempted, but still cringing at the skills I miss by picking it" (hunt, archery, mounted combat). That usually means it's a good balance.
I could definitely get behind this.
Quote from: Voular on November 16, 2009, 09:45:34 AM
All the subguilds Hunter/Nomad/Caravan Guard/Scavanger could fit.
True, but all those other than caravan guide already have plenty of great perks.
I agree with brytta about caravan guide's current apparent usefulness, and like the original idea.
Quote from: Cutthroat on November 16, 2009, 11:09:08 AM
Quote from: Voular on November 16, 2009, 09:45:34 AM
All the subguilds Hunter/Nomad/Caravan Guard/Scavanger could fit.
True, but all those other than caravan guide already have plenty of great perks.
I agree with brytta about caravan guide's current apparent usefulness, and like the original idea.
That's why I thought it would be the best place to put it as well.
I would hate to have more than one subguild get it and all of a sudden everyone was running around in sandstorms like they were nothing.
I can get behind this. It suits the subguild, right down to the description that's already written.
The only other subguild I feel is strongly deserving would be Nomad. I don't think that people who spend their lives outside, moving from place to place, should have as much difficulty navigating storms.
Quote from: Akoto on November 16, 2009, 11:28:32 AM
I can get behind this. It suits the subguild, right down to the description that's already written.
The only other subguild I feel is strongly deserving would be Nomad. I don't think that people who spend their lives outside, moving from place to place, should have as much difficulty navigating storms.
Definitely agree.
I'd love to see both nomad and caravan guide get this.
I can dig them both.
I just want to throw in that I also endorse this.
Brandon
Yes, caravan guide should be the only other option besides ranger that has this ability. Maybe nomad as well, not one-hundred percent sure on that one though.
Quote from: jhunter on November 16, 2009, 11:39:58 AM
Yes, caravan guide should be the only other option besides ranger that has this ability.
I don't know. I think they might have a valid point with nomad as well.
Brandon
Lol, was editing as you posted apparently.
I like this idea.
C'mon, let's get some disagreeablement in this thread.
Anybody? I poke you, Synthesis.
I think giving the skill to one subguild would be a good idea, but not to more--since we don't really want the usefulness of these PCs and their ability to guide other people through storms to get diluted. Caravan guide makes sense, nomad not particularly.
That's the best I can do for disagreement, brytta.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on November 16, 2009, 12:24:58 PM
Caravan guide makes sense, nomad not particularly.
I generally agree. The only difficulty I see is that indie human tribals are
required to pick the nomad subguild. (Yet I don't want to see a proliferation of unconnected tribals just 'cause people want storm navigation.)
I don't see how Nomad would make any less sense, really. Caravan guides lead people through the wilderness, moving from place to place. Nomads live in the wilderness, moving from place to place.
Heck, if anything, I'd say Nomads are equally or better justified. Caravan guides learn to exist in storms as a trade, whereas for Nomads, it's a way of life.
The concept of a nomad is not of an individual character who moves place to place on their own, alone; it's of a tribe that moves place to place, together. The nomad is an individual in that tribe, but that individual does not necessarily possess the skills to make him/herself independently sufficient.
I do not find arguments that are basically about making individual PCs more self-sufficient compelling, because generally speaking I think that interdependencies are good for the game and less interdependency is bad.
No. The ranger's immunity from directional randomness has more far-reaching effects than storms. It would be pretty bad. Trust me.
This would not necessarily help only indies.
I've been stuck places several times with other PCs and waiting on a guild_ranger to show up so we could get from point A to point B and it never happened.
I've also rolled up two PCs that I would MUCH rather had another guild, but chose ranger because they moved form place to place quite a bit.
Rangers are about SURVIVING outside, not just "passing through" outside, although they can be that as well.
Quote from: Rotten on November 16, 2009, 12:47:01 PM
No. The ranger's immunity from directional randomness has more far-reaching effects than storms. It would be pretty bad. Trust me.
Oh, I've done a few twinky things with ranger awesomeness. Maybe it would require code changes to pull off a limited version for a subguild, and maybe it ain't worth it. One simple help might be to add a city vs. desert check to (at least) the subguild version.
But if you look purely at the ability to Not Get Lost in Gritty Sand Blows, that's a very reasonable addition to caravan_guide, which is otherwise not an especially attractive wilderness subguild.
Nomad and Caravan Guide - by all means. That works very well for me.
I support Caravan Guide getting it.
I agree with Gimf that nomads should not get it. Navigation is central to the caravan guide subguild. Moving about every few months with your family in the scrub for the first 15 years of your life doesn't mean you can handle southern sandstorms. But, beyond logic, I think limiting it to one subguild keeps the rarity of the ability while increasing options for character concepts and role flexibility.
... and hey, I actually have a caravan guide concept I've been wanting to try, but the main guild wouldn't be ranger, so I haven't tried it because of the sandstorm issue ...
I'm just going to mention that I haven't used any subguild to my knowledge that didn't infer some type of benefit to the character. IE Hunter to play part ranger, or Linguist to speak all those languages or Thief to steal.
Caravan guide just didn't seem to be at all attractive, if this change is made, it would open up the world of apps I've had in mind for Warrior/Ranger hybrids and that would be excellent.
If not for roleplaying reasons, I'd like another class with the ability to travel through sandstorms just so people don't instantly spot Guild_Ranger when someone can move through a storm without getting blown away.
A Caravan Guide makes the most sense since he/she is responsible for leading CARAVANS and what-not, through the desert.
I am noobish, but it seems to me that "caravan guide" seems like a subguild with rather limited use. Only if you're playing a leader PC of a merchant house or something. This might make it a little more useful, or would it imbalance?
Quote from: MarshallDFX on November 16, 2009, 02:53:59 PM
I am noobish, but it seems to me that "caravan guide" seems like a subguild with rather limited use. Only if you're playing a leader PC of a merchant house or something. This might make it a little more useful, or would it imbalance?
It is of limited use in my opinion.
Then again, sometimes you pick them just because they fit your character and grumble, grumble, grumble.
Brandon
Also, this might further liven up Red Storm. It would allow characters that have lived all their life in a pretty much 24/7 sandstorm to not get lost the moment they set foot in their backyard.
Having caravan guides who are actually able to guide caravans does make sense. Give 'em sandstorm nav.
Quote from: a strange shadow on November 16, 2009, 03:10:30 PM
Having caravan guides who are actually able to guide caravans does make sense.
Could not have been worded better at all. :D
I'm a fan of this idea.
I do agree with those who think it should be just caravan guides though, and not nomads, because it would seem to suit caravan guides twice as well, and seems to me like it would give that subguild more viability. And I also don't think everybody and their brother should have it, or it would stop being special.
I'm going to jump in right now and say I endorse this even more.
Brandon
While we're on a similar topic:
subclass scavenger should get forage_food.
I also agree with this. And nomad, too. In fact, nomad should have this more than they should have 'ranger vision'.
I totally agree.
this is an agreeable thread. More like these plz!
Now I wonder what the Staff thinks about this.
:-\
Quote from: a strange shadow on November 16, 2009, 03:10:30 PM
Having caravan guides who are actually able to guide caravans does make sense. Give 'em sandstorm nav.
Like FW said, this is about as tight a line of argument as you're going to find on the GDB. :) Fully agree.
Quote from: Rotten on November 16, 2009, 12:47:01 PM
No. The ranger's immunity from directional randomness has more far-reaching effects than storms. It would be pretty bad. Trust me.
If it would be that bad, you should send an email to staff so that these problems can be addressed. We probably have more rangers in the game at any given time than any other guild, but I can't say I've ever seen this abused.
+1 to the idea. Let them
eat cake guide caravans.
All characters should be able to learn how to travel in a sandstorm. It isn't reasonable that it should be some sort of genetic trait that some people just know but can only be learned up to some point in your life and then never again. I'm not sure what skill to tie it into currently (ride seems the only marginally plausible one, and even then not really) but it should not just be granted to some subguild because it would only tone the problem down one notch, and then everyone would take that subguild.
Quote from: Good Gortok on November 17, 2009, 03:01:15 AM
All characters should be able to learn how to travel in a sandstorm. It isn't reasonable that it should be some sort of genetic trait that some people just know but can only be learned up to some point in your life and then never again. I'm not sure what skill to tie it into currently (ride seems the only marginally plausible one, and even then not really) but it should not just be granted to some subguild because it would only tone the problem down one notch, and then everyone would take that subguild.
I agree. Everytime you get turned around in a sandstorm, you should become a little better at navigating them.
There's other stuff in the game that works similarly. Like resistance to being reeled.
Stick to the Ranger Vision idea, though, there's another full-on class that should get it, if you ask me.
I don't think nomads should get it, for reasons Gimf already expressed ... though I find it annoying to no end that human tribals have to take that subguild in order to be a tribal while desert elves are free to subguild whatever they want ... as if desert elves needed more advantages. I wish human tribals were a seperate race option instead of a subguild.
I also just have to point out that there are other, all be it karma required, classes that are able to shrug off the misdirectional effects of sandstorms and darkness, so it isn't a 100% tell tale sign that someone is a ranger if they can move through a sandstorm ... it is a 100% tell tale sign if they quit out in a room not flagged for quitting, however.
And just to be the first to disagree with the OP, I have to say I'm not sure that caravan guides need the ability either, mostly because, unless I'm mistaken (and hey I very well may be!) guiding a caravan (wagon, argosy, yargosy, what have you) takes place inside the transport in the pilot's chamber, safe from the worries of the storm outside, doesn't it? It seems to me like they can already pilot a transport through a sandstorm because of that ... and if their primary method of weathering the storm has always been to be safe and snug inside a pilot's deck, then I can see them being turned upside down when caught in the storm with only a facewrap between them.
Heh, thanks for your ATS post, Cerelum.
No subguild should get it.
The ability is quite powerful and if a subguild could get it then some main guilds that should never be allowed to have such a thing, if only for balance reasons, would.
And nomad? My god, nomads are a people or culture. They travel in groups not one at a time. Definitly not. When the camp moves, the rangers/hunters lead...Duh.
No, really, I do not feel sorry for anybody who picks other then ranger on a wilderness PC, that is what you picked bub, he is just not quite as good in the wilderness...for whatever reason.
Now, I'm not against somebody learning storm travel over the course of 10-20 years play.
Or Mundane classes who are willing to give up at least 3 main class skills for it.
Otherwise, Pick class ranger, Or have a ranger friend, or hire a ranger.
To Musashi's point - are caravan guides currently able to guide caravans through storms as he describes? I'm honestly not sure. I thought not, but it's been a goodly while since I've been in that role. (Might be a "Find out IC" situation, but there's really nowhere more that facet of the discussion can go if it is.)
Quote from: musashi on November 17, 2009, 04:47:57 AM
I don't think nomads should get it, for reasons Gimf already expressed ... though I find it annoying to no end that human tribals have to take that subguild in order to be a tribal while desert elves are free to subguild whatever they want ... as if desert elves needed more advantages. I wish human tribals were a seperate race option instead of a subguild.
I also just have to point out that there are other, all be it karma required, classes that are able to shrug off the misdirectional effects of sandstorms and darkness, so it isn't a 100% tell tale sign that someone is a ranger if they can move through a sandstorm ... it is a 100% tell tale sign if they quit out in a room not flagged for quitting, however.
And just to be the first to disagree with the OP, I have to say I'm not sure that caravan guides need the ability either, mostly because, unless I'm mistaken (and hey I very well may be!) guiding a caravan (wagon, argosy, yargosy, what have you) takes place inside the transport in the pilot's chamber, safe from the worries of the storm outside, doesn't it? It seems to me like they can already pilot a transport through a sandstorm because of that ... and if their primary method of weathering the storm has always been to be safe and snug inside a pilot's deck, then I can see them being turned upside down when caught in the storm with only a facewrap between them.
Just for the record: Only Benjari and independent (non-coded) tribes have to take nomad as a subguild. Arabet, Al'Seik, etc. all have to be applied for through the clan immortal to receive their accents and language.
Quote from: X-D on November 17, 2009, 08:17:50 AM
No subguild should get it.
The ability is quite powerful and if a subguild could get it then some main guilds that should never be allowed to have such a thing, if only for balance reasons, would.
I'm highly in favor of a subguild version being capped, if that's possible. I don't want to be able to navigate through a flat-out howling sandstorm, just through the sort of bad weather
routinely seen around Red Storm and even Allanak.
I don't see that capped ranger_navigation is really more powerful than capped archery or hunt or sap or sneak. Rangers don't have any one overpowering, godlike skill (like backstab or disarm); they get a big grab bag of tricks.
Even if you pick guild warrior and subguild caravan guide, a ranger still has seven ways from Sunday to eat your lunch. You've given up mounted combat and tracking and stealth and (early) archery and the ability to maintain a non-quit-safe base of operations.
Obviously 'gickers are a special case, but that's always true, and they're still mostly lacking critical things rangers get.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 17, 2009, 10:36:54 AM
Rangers don't have any one overpowering, godlike skill (like backstab or disarm); they get a big grab bag of tricks.
Just to be picky ... I'm sure anyone who's ever been hit with a skilled ranger's arrow from a room away would argue strongly about them not having a godlike skill. :-*
Quote from: musashi on November 17, 2009, 10:40:11 AM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 17, 2009, 10:36:54 AM
Rangers don't have any one overpowering, godlike skill (like backstab or disarm); they get a big grab bag of tricks.
Just to be picky ... I'm sure anyone who's ever been hit with a skilled ranger's arrow from a room away would argue strongly about them not having a godlike skill. :-*
Hahah... those were my thoughts exactly.
Brandon
Quote from: musashi on November 17, 2009, 10:40:11 AM
Just to be picky ... I'm sure anyone who's ever been hit with a skilled ranger's arrow from a room away would argue strongly about them not having a godlike skill. :-*
Dude, don't get me started. ...However, archery is available to warriors and at least two subguilds, though perhaps not at the same level.
More to the point of op, yes, Caravan + storm walking all the way.
Quote from: musashi on November 17, 2009, 04:47:57 AM
I find it annoying to no end that human tribals have to take that subguild in order to be a tribal while desert elves are free to subguild whatever they want ...
Not so. In fact, if you have a human tribal concept and you'd like them to be clanned, you email the immortals about it and they will set you up with bendune, tribal accent, and coded access to the camp that your pc is from. (At least as far as Al'Seik, Jul Tavan, and Arabet. It is -not- true of the Benjari who have no tents. You must choose nomad for a benjari concept.)
In fact, out of 22 pcs so far, I've had 3 seperate clanned human tribals, none of which had a nomad subguild. Nomad subguild is for those who have tribal or nomadic backgrounds but no tribe or stomping grounds of their own.
QuoteAnd just to be the first to disagree with the OP, I have to say I'm not sure that caravan guides need the ability either, mostly because, unless I'm mistaken (and hey I very well may be!) guiding a caravan (wagon, argosy, yargosy, what have you) takes place inside the transport in the pilot's chamber, safe from the worries of the storm outside, doesn't it? It seems to me like they can already pilot a transport through a sandstorm because of that ... and if their primary method of weathering the storm has always been to be safe and snug inside a pilot's deck, then I can see them being turned upside down when caught in the storm with only a facewrap between them.
Touche. That's a strong arguement.
QuoteAnd just to be the first to disagree with the OP, I have to say I'm not sure that caravan guides need the ability either, mostly because, unless I'm mistaken (and hey I very well may be!) guiding a caravan (wagon, argosy, yargosy, what have you) takes place inside the transport in the pilot's chamber, safe from the worries of the storm outside, doesn't it? It seems to me like they can already pilot a transport through a sandstorm because of that ... and if their primary method of weathering the storm has always been to be safe and snug inside a pilot's deck, then I can see them being turned upside down when caught in the storm with only a facewrap between them.
Guiding a caravan could be as you described. It also is leading the way for another wagon driver, etc. Which is why it does make sense for them to have the ability.
From the documentation:
QuoteCaravan guides are skilled in desert travel, whether it be on a mount or piloting a wagon. They are skilled in assessing goods, and most have learned at least a smattering of the nomadic tongue.
A "caravan" does not necessarily mean a group that includes or is exclusive to a wagon. Most traveling groups in Zalanthas do not possess sizable wagons of any sort. A caravan is simply a group of travelers, often bearing goods. So a caravan guide's work does not necessarily take place in or with wagons; in fact, a caravan guide might conceivably never have driven a wagon at all.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on November 17, 2009, 01:06:58 PM
A "caravan" does not necessarily mean a group that includes or is exclusive to a wagon.
(http://www.rehsgalleries.com/images/charles_theodore_frere_a3619_a_caravan_crossing_the_desert_small.JPG)
(http://pixdaus.com/pics/1233730399Y5Uxvxu.jpg)
Good counter point. I retract my statement.
My support for this is grounded in history, of a sorts.
When I started playing this MUD, rangers had the ability to navigate sandstorms. Sandstorms which turned around your character existed in exactly one area of the world, roughly the windy plains around Red Storm (and possibly the Silt Sea, I never explored it then). Getting lost in a sandstorm did not exist in the rest of the world.
Thus, if you wanted to go to Red Storm, it was possible without a ranger, but much safer if you did have one. This was the only area of the game I ever encountered this ability of the ranger being useful at that time.
Then the weather code went in. It was then possible to get turned around wherever there was a strong enough storm. The small advantage the ranger had suddenly turned into a huge advantage, and none of the other mundane guilds were given anything to help them.
Thus, on to my (limited) support. I view this like skin. Once upon a time, skin was not a skill. It was an inherent ability of rangers, which other guilds were able to use to a lesser degree. I would like to see the ranger ability to navigate a storm turned into a skill. Lets say "navigate". Like skin, a ranger would now have to work up their ability to get around in a sandstorm or in the dark. As a skin, it could be given in limited form to other guilds/subguilds, as a form of trainable resistance.
It just would make sense to me people would adapt to storms. We currently can't. It would be nice to be able to, as part of character development, regardless of guild.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 17, 2009, 10:36:54 AM
I'm highly in favor of a subguild version being capped, if that's possible. I don't want to be able to navigate through a flat-out howling sandstorm, just through the sort of bad weather routinely seen around Red Storm and even Allanak.
I don't see that capped ranger_navigation is really more powerful than capped archery or hunt or sap or sneak. Rangers don't have any one overpowering, godlike skill (like backstab or disarm); they get a big grab bag of tricks.
It's not a skill. It's a property, like the ability to hitch two mounts. You just can't cap it.
Other guilds are much more dangerous when in the same room, so I'm a lot less keen on giving them the immunity.
Rangers, at least, need to pop their head up before shooting.
Quote from: Rotten on November 17, 2009, 02:48:39 PM
It's not a skill. It's a property, like the ability to hitch two mounts. You just can't cap it.
I doubt that it would be difficult to add weather severity and subguild to the check, if staff want to do this.
Quote from: musashi on November 17, 2009, 10:40:11 AM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 17, 2009, 10:36:54 AM
Rangers don't have any one overpowering, godlike skill (like backstab or disarm); they get a big grab bag of tricks.
Just to be picky ... I'm sure anyone who's ever been hit with a skilled ranger's arrow from a room away would argue strongly about them not having a godlike skill. :-*
Especially when they are a d-elf that can run/sneak hidden half-way across the known-world in a breath.
I am ALL for giving ranger navigate to a subguild. But make it a skill. Let me be bad at it a first like everything else. Rangers have a higher start + and a higher cap.
As an aside - I'm also all for taking away quit restrictions. Let me quit where I f-ing please. Give me coded ramifications for quitting in the desert based on my skill level.
skill_storm_navigate
skill_wilderness_quit
I till this day - it's been like 2 years since this debate started - can't see any objective reason based in balancing or realism to support these not being skills available in 1 more subs. Even at low levels + caps.
We have a blind fighting skill....This can be done.
Pls?
Quote from: jmordetsky on November 17, 2009, 09:28:57 PM
skill_wilderness_quit
I think quitting out of the game is an OOC construct and has no place as an IC skill. When you have to quit, you you should be able to quit. I'm honestly not even in favor of the delay post-combat that prevents you from quitting. I feel like if someone you were trying to kill really twinks out and flee/quits on you ... player complaint.
Quote from: musashi on November 18, 2009, 04:08:54 AM
Quote from: jmordetsky on November 17, 2009, 09:28:57 PM
skill_wilderness_quit
I think quitting out of the game is an OOC construct and has no place as an IC skill. When you have to quit, you you should be able to quit. I'm honestly not even in favor of the delay post-combat that prevents you from quitting. I feel like if someone you were trying to kill really twinks out and flee/quits on you ... player complaint.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 18, 2009, 09:59:14 AM
Quote from: musashi on November 18, 2009, 04:08:54 AM
Quote from: jmordetsky on November 17, 2009, 09:28:57 PM
skill_wilderness_quit
I think quitting out of the game is an OOC construct and has no place as an IC skill. When you have to quit, you you should be able to quit. I'm honestly not even in favor of the delay post-combat that prevents you from quitting. I feel like if someone you were trying to kill really twinks out and flee/quits on you ... player complaint.
Thirded.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on November 18, 2009, 10:48:54 AM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 18, 2009, 09:59:14 AM
Quote from: musashi on November 18, 2009, 04:08:54 AM
Quote from: jmordetsky on November 17, 2009, 09:28:57 PM
skill_wilderness_quit
I think quitting out of the game is an OOC construct and has no place as an IC skill. When you have to quit, you you should be able to quit. I'm honestly not even in favor of the delay post-combat that prevents you from quitting. I feel like if someone you were trying to kill really twinks out and flee/quits on you ... player complaint.
Thirded.
Fourthed.
True, but then everyone who flees from combat, finds a good hiding spot, and throws up a barrier could have a player complaint held against them.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 18, 2009, 12:47:55 PM
True, but then everyone who flees from combat, finds a good hiding spot, and throws up a barrier could have a player complaint held against them.
To which I hope staff could see the full situation of, and not hold it against the player.
Quote from: musashi on November 18, 2009, 04:08:54 AM
I'm honestly not even in favor of the delay post-combat that prevents you from quitting. I feel like if someone you were trying to kill really twinks out and flee/quits on you ... player complaint.
That would be constantly abused. People will quit out of combat with mobs and PCs alike, all the time. Some desperate thoughts go through the mind when you are about to lose a favorite character.
I am in favor of caravan guide gaining the ability to actually guide a caravan, and scavenger (which is sort of weak-sauce as it stands) getting food forage.
Quote from: LauraMars on November 18, 2009, 11:02:57 AM
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on November 18, 2009, 10:48:54 AM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 18, 2009, 09:59:14 AM
Quote from: musashi on November 18, 2009, 04:08:54 AM
Quote from: jmordetsky on November 17, 2009, 09:28:57 PM
skill_wilderness_quit
I think quitting out of the game is an OOC construct and has no place as an IC skill. When you have to quit, you you should be able to quit. I'm honestly not even in favor of the delay post-combat that prevents you from quitting. I feel like if someone you were trying to kill really twinks out and flee/quits on you ... player complaint.
Thirded.
Fourthed.
I actually feel the same way, but making penalties for quitting int he wilds associated with your time trying to survive out there is a reasonable concession to the "omg we can't let you quit any where it will bleed the cities of players and ruin game balance" contingent. I'd be willing to sacrifice this for the ability to quit.
What we need is:
>quit
But you're too excited to leave just yet!
>quit now
You will quit the game in 5 minutes, unless something interrupts you.
...
...
Thanks for playing!
Quote from: hyzhenhok on November 18, 2009, 02:35:40 PM
>quit now
You will quit the game in 5 minutes, unless something interrupts you.
...
...
Thanks for playing!
Neat.
Quitting out anywhere would be awesome, indeed. Sixthed, or whatever it is.
>look
A crappy cave. It's not quit safe, but you can quit anywhere now.
>Glancing over his shoulder axiously, the wiry, skittish man crouches in the corner of the cave, wimpering.
>Feeling scared, you think:
"Please don't find me. Please don't find me."
>assess me
The wiry, skittish man is in poor condition.
The wiry, skittsh man looks tired.
>The wiry skittish man clutches at his wounds.
>Quit
You are too excited to leave just yet!
The wiry skittish man whimpers.
>Quit now
You will quit the game in 5 minutes, unless something interrupts you.
...
...
...
...
The behemoth, wild-eyed mutant has arrived from the outside.
>
Intently looking about, breath laboured, the behemoth, wild-eyed mutant looks at you.
>
Roaring, the behemoth, wild-eyed mutant comes storming towards you.
>
The wiry, skittish man folds his hands in prayer
>
Tone calm, slowly fading into the ethereal, the wiry skittish man says:
"The Highlord saves me this day.
...
Thanks for playing!
The wiry, skittish man has departed the land of Zalanthas.
I'm of the opinion that wilderness quit and traveling through storms are two of the things that make rangers rangers. The ability to quit anywhere simply reflects a ranger's skill to survive indefinitely in the wilds.
QuoteA ranger possesses two primary abilities: to know where she is at all times...
QuoteCaravan guides are skilled in desert travel
I think there's quite a difference between these two. One points at piloting and riding, the other points at a guild defining ability.
The fact that quitting is OOC is exactly the reason only rangers can quit anywhere and other guilds cannot.
Because the PC is NOT leaving the world, but instead becoming a VNPC.
Now the question is, Does that VNPC have the skillset to camp out in the wild for indefinite lengths of time?
If they are not a ranger then the answer to that is a very simple..NO.
Hence the MANY wilderness quit safe rooms, all of these are sheltered and most are at or near ready supplies of food and water for your PC to virtually take advantage of.
FantasyWriter - Is that... a halfling caravan guide? That is so twinky (and such an awesome picture ;D )
Quote from: Bushranger on November 18, 2009, 06:28:00 PM
FantasyWriter - Is that... a halfling caravan guide? That is so twinky (and such an awesome picture ;D )
Specially skilled Halfling twinks leading secret Tuluki caravans when there are no guild_rangers around is the real reason why Tuluk never declares war on them.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on November 18, 2009, 07:35:07 PM
Quote from: Bushranger on November 18, 2009, 06:28:00 PM
FantasyWriter - Is that... a halfling caravan guide? That is so twinky (and such an awesome picture ;D )
Specially skilled Halfling twinks leading secret Tuluki caravans when there are no guild_rangers around is the real reason why Tuluk never declares war on them.
Actually, that's an optical illusion.
The man on the donkey is roughly the same size as every other man in the painting. The ones on the camels look a little larger because they're riding side-saddle, so their legs are dangling farther down.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on November 18, 2009, 07:35:07 PM
Quote from: Bushranger on November 18, 2009, 06:28:00 PM
FantasyWriter - Is that... a halfling caravan guide? That is so twinky (and such an awesome picture ;D )
Specially skilled Halfling twinks leading secret Tuluki caravans when there are no guild_rangers around is the real reason why Tuluk never declares war on them.
No, Muk shows himself to the halflings and they fall in love like a pastry chef who can't eat the cake he's created... Similar to the reverence on humans, but in a way that stops them from killing him.
Quote from: X-D on November 18, 2009, 04:21:38 PM
The fact that quitting is OOC is exactly the reason only rangers can quit anywhere and other guilds cannot.
Because the PC is NOT leaving the world, but instead becoming a VNPC.
Now the question is, Does that VNPC have the skillset to camp out in the wild for indefinite lengths of time?
If they are not a ranger then the answer to that is a very simple..NO.
Hence the MANY wilderness quit safe rooms, all of these are sheltered and most are at or near ready supplies of food and water for your PC to virtually take advantage of.
I'm fine with this logic as well. But if this is true - why not increase the playability of the game, make that ability a learned skill and offer it to subguilds? Why does every ranger start with both of these "acquired" skills completely maxed?
Lets say Rangers start with two skills:
skill_camping
skill_storm_navigate
They have a 50% max start in both skills and a 100% max cap.
You could easily give the same two skills to sub guild Nomad with a 0% start and a 30% max cap.
If you did that, then you could make non-ranger characters that had the ability to camp out (quit) but the low skill has attached penalties (health, stam drain + delay before quit) and higher chance of fail for navigating storms. From this POV - Maxed Nomads will never be as good at living in the desert a n00b ranger and if the health/stam drain put you to "sleep required" levels in the case of a camp failure - then you have a serious detriment to "going vnpc" outdoors because you'll have to find a place to sleep to recover.
This just seems like a no-brainer to me in terms of increasing the over all playability of the game for non-diehards and people (like me) that have a job and a life to live outside of being idle in a storm for 5 straight hours. It retains the l33tness of rangers (I would argue rangers could start with both skills at 100% to further that) and it keeps the harshness of the wilds intact while stimulating travel to the cities as safe havens.
I'm not opposed to a caravan guide having a lesser version of ranger vision, simply because they're called guides. Riding doesn't make you much of a guide if you get lost all over the place. Their skill might be somewhere in between the average PC and a ranger, i.e. a good chance to navigate a storm but not a flawless one. I'd then remove value from the guide's skill set. That might also make guide less useless, as everything else in their skill set can be learned over time.
Hell no on giving that to nomads. Nor do I like others being able to ranger quit. Find a quit room. They're everywhere.
Fact of the matter is that 90% of the skills in the game could realistically be learned by anyone given time. However, Arm is not set up that way. Guild skill set is a factor of game balance.
One other thing.
If you are not playing a ranger, make sure you have newbie on.
I played several rangers in a row some years back and had newbie off.
Then I played another class and for the first month, man, I was with the people that were complaining about the lack of quit rooms...Then I turned newbie on and...Well, They are everywhere. The only places I can think of where you are more then 10 rooms from a quit safe room are where you SHOULD be a long ways from safety.
Quote from: X-D on November 19, 2009, 01:59:20 PM
One other thing.
If you are not playing a ranger, make sure you have newbie on.
I played several rangers in a row some years back and had newbie off.
Then I played another class and for the first month, man, I was with the people that were complaining about the lack of quit rooms...Then I turned newbie on and...Well, They are everywhere. The only places I can think of where you are more then 10 rooms from a quit safe room are where you SHOULD be a long ways from safety.
There is a newbie flag?
What does turning it off or on do? Or could you point me to a helpfile?
I'm genuinely confused and also /kind of/ trying to work or else I would search the Arm site.
Brandon
Gah, it has been years since I toggled it.
Not sure how to do it anymore, but it is just the toggle to turn the little info on or off at the top of a rdesc that states if the room is safe/quit and I think you can even turn off the exits.
Brief room?
QuoteRandom room [N Quit]
You can turn the information inside [] on and off....not that I can remember how at the moment.
Brief novice?
brief novice on/off
Off:
A Room [NESWUD Save Quit]
On:
A Room [NESWUD]
Despite the name, it is immensely useful for all kinds of players. edit: got off and on mixed up.
I don't think both of the mentioned subguilds should have the ability move through the storms. I must disagree on caravan guides having the ranger ability mentioned because of the equality problems. No
elf would ever want to have a subguild nomad or caravan guide. I hope you won't ask the reasons. :) If you're gonna ask for a change, please make it useful for everyone. ;)
Quote
Subguild Caravan Guide (Character)
Caravan guides are skilled in desert travel, whether it be on a mount or piloting a wagon. They are skilled in assessing goods, and most have learned at least a smattering of the nomadic tongue.
See Also:
guilds, subguilds
And YAY! for scavengers having the "forage food"
Why should we care if it's "fair" for elves? They're elves.
Quote from: Xeran Van Houten on November 19, 2009, 03:02:18 PM
Why should we care if it's "fair" for elves? They're elves.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... right :D
Quote from: eska on November 19, 2009, 02:51:11 PM
I don't think both of the mentioned subguilds should have the ability move through the storms. I must disagree on caravan guides having the ranger ability mentioned because of the equality problems. No elf would ever want to have a subguild nomad or caravan guide. I hope you won't ask the reasons. :) If you're gonna ask for a change, please make it useful for everyone. ;)
A desert elf warrior is already halfway to ranger (given that he doesn't need a mount, and his other racial abilities). I don't mind being a little unfair to him in this case; haggle, bendune, and (limited) storm navigation is still a fine subguild package.
If anything, desert elves are an argument against making this a subguild skill at all. :'(
Well, here is my personal take on ranger "direction sense" in relation to other subguilds.
Just because you live in the desert doesn't mean that you're a tracker. If you're a member of your tribe who has been spending his whole life wandering the wastes by yourself to the point where this (http://users.apex2000.net/ajbergstrom/Sandstorm.jpg) don't really bother you, then you're a ranger. If you're a scavenger who doesn't let something as inconsequential as this (http://devallrigamer.com/Copy%20of%20Sandstorm%204.jpg) get in your way, then you're a ranger. If you're a caravan guide who can keep the caravan moving through one of these (http://www.robinson.co.nz/rideround/sand_storm.jpg), then you're a ranger. If you're a caravan guide who says "holy fuck look at that storm - circle the mounts and get under cover until it passes!" then you're still a caravan guide. You're just not a ranger.
Quote from: Cavaticus on November 19, 2009, 04:10:20 PM
Well, here is my personal take on ranger "direction sense" in relation to other subguilds.
Just because you live in the desert doesn't mean that you're a tracker. If you're a member of your tribe who has been spending his whole life wandering the wastes by yourself to the point where this (http://users.apex2000.net/ajbergstrom/Sandstorm.jpg) don't really bother you, then you're a ranger. If you're a scavenger who doesn't let something as inconsequential as this (http://devallrigamer.com/Copy%20of%20Sandstorm%204.jpg) get in your way, then you're a ranger. If you're a caravan guide who can keep the caravan moving through one of these (http://www.robinson.co.nz/rideround/sand_storm.jpg), then you're a ranger. If you're a caravan guide who says "holy fuck look at that storm - circle the mounts and get under cover until it passes!" then you're still a caravan guide. You're just not a ranger.
That's all well and good, but I think most people are asking the question:
Why is it that being able to "navigate in a sandstorm" automatically means that you're unable to say, "disarm an opponent" or "craft a tent?" Why can't I have a tribal burglar who routinely travels through heinous sandstorms in order to loot things from the city and return them to his tribe? Is it unreasonable to suspect that someone with extensive combat training -also- has extensive experience traversing the desert? Especially since persons with extensive combat training are pretty much the best at killing shit out in the desert?
I know it's basically a function of the class system, but one of the purposes of subguilds is to somewhat smooth the rough edges of the class system. Sandstorm navigation is -hardly- a powerful subguild ability on its own, especially if it were made an actual skill, and was capped as low as most other subguild skills are. You might have a 30% chance to successfully move in the right direction, on top of your 25% chance to randomly get it right...so now you're up to moving the right direction 55% of the time. Not awesome, but definitely an improvement worth spending a subguild on, if you plan on say, living in Red Storm.
Further, if you tacked the ability only on nomads and caravan guides, I still strongly suspect that it wouldn't make those subguilds so overpowered that people would flock to them. What's the big deal about adding a 30% capped sandstorm travel on top of bendune, tribal accent, spearmaking, and haggle? Would anyone really be jizzing in their pants over that? Would adding sandstorm navigation to pilot, increased ride, bendune, and value really make anyone totally rethink their min/max calculations?
With the new weather code, this would be only intermittently useful, and it's obviously something players have long since adapted to, because I've never heard anyone say, "Damn, I -have- to be a ranger, because this character concept -relies- on sandstorm nav."
Quote from: eska on November 19, 2009, 02:51:11 PM
No elf would ever want to have a subguild nomad or caravan guide.
Elves have a reason to be "guides."
1. Tricking non-elves into letting them be 'guided' by an elf.
2. Leading raiding parties.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on November 19, 2009, 06:28:35 PM
Quote from: eska on November 19, 2009, 02:51:11 PM
No elf would ever want to have a subguild nomad or caravan guide.
Elves have a reason to be "guides."
1. Tricking non-elves into letting them be 'guided' by an elf.
2. Leading raiding parties.
After all, how would you lead your new slaves to Allanak to sell them, if you didn't have a caravan guide along?
Just because you are a tracker, doesn't mean you are good in the desert. Tracking has nothing to do with navigation.
I've had characters where those storms didn't bother them. That doesn't mean they were a ranger. Heck, even in the days before the dynamic direction shifting was linked to weather (ie when it was only around RS), I took non-rangers to the edge of the Silt Sea. Fairly routinely. It just didn't bother them -despite- the code, not because there was a mechanism in place to reflect their familiarity with those kinds of storms. IMHO IC'ly they knew enough not to be bothered, OOC'ly the code hadn't caught up yet.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on November 19, 2009, 06:28:35 PM
Quote from: eska on November 19, 2009, 02:51:11 PM
No elf would ever want to have a subguild nomad or caravan guide.
Elves have a reason to be "guides."
1. Tricking non-elves into letting them be 'guided' by an elf.
2. Leading raiding parties.
Bendune, pilot and ride?? Come on, which elf would want to have these three?? Besides, as most of the people against this idea would suggest, there are
ranger elves who can lead the raiding parties, guide the slaves to Nak or that tricking. To me, this thread is meant to make your uber-warriors (or magickers) more uber with adding them the ability to move to wherever they wish to go.
PS: I hate being unable to navigate through a storm. I lost a few of my favorite warriors or magickers because of that. And when they died, I just thought about the very same idea mentioned under this topic.
This isn't a hack & slash... you CAN ignore skills on your skill lists or even send in a request to have them removed.
More than once, I have chosen a guild or subguild and not used some of the skills because it wasn't IC, but I needed the guild or subguild for a skill that was IC.
Quote from: eska on November 19, 2009, 02:51:11 PM
And YAY! for scavengers having the "forage food"
Yay indeed, my friend. Yay indeed. God I love that subguild.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on November 19, 2009, 07:41:06 PM
Quote from: eska on November 19, 2009, 02:51:11 PM
And YAY! for scavengers having the "forage food"
Yay indeed, my friend. Yay indeed. God I love that subguild.
I think scavengers getting 'forage food' would allow for grittier concepts. It just fits, is not overpowering, and expands potential for gameplay - I can't see any negatives.
I'm also in favour of giving caravan guides capped stormvision. I'm sort of curious which subguild is the least chosen by PC's and my guesses are caravan guide or house servant (the latter, which can also drive wagons, certainly shouldn't be getting stormvision). I mean, at least tinker gets haggle.
Scavengers can already forage for food. It's just not in the helpfile for whatever reason.
I'm not sure when it was changed.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 19, 2009, 04:43:13 PM
Quote from: Cavaticus on November 19, 2009, 04:10:20 PM
Well, here is my personal take on ranger "direction sense" in relation to other subguilds.
Just because you live in the desert doesn't mean that you're a tracker. If you're a member of your tribe who has been spending his whole life wandering the wastes by yourself to the point where this (http://users.apex2000.net/ajbergstrom/Sandstorm.jpg) don't really bother you, then you're a ranger. If you're a scavenger who doesn't let something as inconsequential as this (http://devallrigamer.com/Copy%20of%20Sandstorm%204.jpg) get in your way, then you're a ranger. If you're a caravan guide who can keep the caravan moving through one of these (http://www.robinson.co.nz/rideround/sand_storm.jpg), then you're a ranger. If you're a caravan guide who says "holy fuck look at that storm - circle the mounts and get under cover until it passes!" then you're still a caravan guide. You're just not a ranger.
That's all well and good, but I think most people are asking the question:
Why is it that being able to "navigate in a sandstorm" automatically means that you're unable to say, "disarm an opponent" or "craft a tent?" Why can't I have a tribal burglar who routinely travels through heinous sandstorms in order to loot things from the city and return them to his tribe? Is it unreasonable to suspect that someone with extensive combat training -also- has extensive experience traversing the desert? Especially since persons with extensive combat training are pretty much the best at killing shit out in the desert?
I know it's basically a function of the class system, but one of the purposes of subguilds is to somewhat smooth the rough edges of the class system. Sandstorm navigation is -hardly- a powerful subguild ability on its own, especially if it were made an actual skill, and was capped as low as most other subguild skills are. You might have a 30% chance to successfully move in the right direction, on top of your 25% chance to randomly get it right...so now you're up to moving the right direction 55% of the time. Not awesome, but definitely an improvement worth spending a subguild on, if you plan on say, living in Red Storm.
Further, if you tacked the ability only on nomads and caravan guides, I still strongly suspect that it wouldn't make those subguilds so overpowered that people would flock to them. What's the big deal about adding a 30% capped sandstorm travel on top of bendune, tribal accent, spearmaking, and haggle? Would anyone really be jizzing in their pants over that? Would adding sandstorm navigation to pilot, increased ride, bendune, and value really make anyone totally rethink their min/max calculations?
With the new weather code, this would be only intermittently useful, and it's obviously something players have long since adapted to, because I've never heard anyone say, "Damn, I -have- to be a ranger, because this character concept -relies- on sandstorm nav."
Boom! Truth.
Quote from: eska on November 19, 2009, 07:25:20 PM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on November 19, 2009, 06:28:35 PM
Quote from: eska on November 19, 2009, 02:51:11 PM
No elf would ever want to have a subguild nomad or caravan guide.
Elves have a reason to be "guides."
1. Tricking non-elves into letting them be 'guided' by an elf.
2. Leading raiding parties.
Bendune, pilot and ride?? Come on, which elf would want to have these three??
An elf who wants to be stored for violating documentation that's who!
Quote from: Cavaticus on November 19, 2009, 04:10:20 PMIf you're a caravan guide who says "holy fuck look at that storm - circle the mounts and get under cover until it passes!" then you're still a caravan guide. You're just not a ranger.
With respect--
If someone in-game purported themselves to be a 'guide' and offered their services to a 'caravan', but then was unable to navigate a sandstorm, leaving a group of players potentially stranded or unable to arrive at their destination, the characters involved would be justifiably homicidal. In the case of an RPT or the like, the players themselves would have a reason to be upset.
Obviously, this scenario doesn't play out (very often) (as far as I know) because everyone more or less understands that the caravan guide subclass doesn't do what says on the tin.
Okay I'll be a little useful rather then sarcastic or witty.
The reason that I think Caravan Guide is in is for folks who want to start the game with pre-determined knowledge of travel routes and such. Because really we are all sorta cheating when we know that we have to go n n n n n e e e n e n E instead of N into the pit without one look command being entered.
Caravan guides would know this stuff and be able to transport in ooc knowledge accordingly.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 19, 2009, 04:43:13 PM
Why is it that being able to "navigate in a sandstorm" automatically means that you're unable to say, "disarm an opponent" or "craft a tent?"
You know the answer to this. You just said it. It's a function of the class system. It's the same reason that being able to, say, "pick a lock" automatically means that you're unable to say, "disarm an opponent" or "craft a tent."
Quote from: SynthesisWhy can't I have a tribal burglar who routinely travels through heinous sandstorms in order to loot things from the city and return them to his tribe?
You can. It would be a special apped ranger with a few burglar skills thrown in. Write up an awesome backstory and convince whomever's doing special apps at the moment that it's a great concept.
Quote from: Cavaticus on November 19, 2009, 04:10:20 PM
If you're a caravan guide who says "holy fuck look at that storm - circle the mounts and get under cover until it passes!" then you're still a caravan guide. You're just not a ranger.
I agree with number13. Anyone who did this IC would be skinned alive. You might still be a caravan guide, but you'd be a dead one.
"Circle the mounts and get under cover until it passes ... we don't have desert quit and the storm could last RL hours so we may not all be able to be online together again for a few RL days ... but we'll be fine just idling here link dead, right guys? Guys? Why do you have those sharp butcher knives out, guys?"
Quote from: Cavaticus on November 20, 2009, 07:53:05 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on November 19, 2009, 04:43:13 PM
Why is it that being able to "navigate in a sandstorm" automatically means that you're unable to say, "disarm an opponent" or "craft a tent?"
You know the answer to this. You just said it. It's a function of the class system. It's the same reason that being able to, say, "pick a lock" automatically means that you're unable to say, "disarm an opponent" or "craft a tent."
Quote from: SynthesisWhy can't I have a tribal burglar who routinely travels through heinous sandstorms in order to loot things from the city and return them to his tribe?
You can. It would be a special apped ranger with a few burglar skills thrown in. Write up an awesome backstory and convince whomever's doing special apps at the moment that it's a great concept.
Good job cherry-picking a quote and replying to it without taking into account the rest of what I said. We have classes, but we also have subguilds to round out our character concepts without having to resort to the special application system.
The skills of "Caravan guide" are pretty useless to most of the people who own wagons, because most of the people who own wagons are class_merchant, which already comes with pilot. And if they're class_ranger, they can get their pilot skill up fast enough that they'd still not need to hire someone who's offering themselves as a caravan guide.
I agree caravan guide should -definitely- come with ranger-vision. Pilot is not a useful skill by itself. I mean sure you can get a wagon from point A to point B, assuming you know in advance that there's no hole in the ground, or raiders on the road. OR, assuming you have..A GUIDE, who can give you this information a few minutes before you get to the next spot. That's what guides do. They guide. They lead those who are unable or unwilling to lead themselves, from point A to point B. If a guide isn't capable of leading himself from point A to point B, then he's useless as a guide.
Quote from: Cavaticus on November 20, 2009, 07:53:05 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on November 19, 2009, 04:43:13 PM
Why is it that being able to "navigate in a sandstorm" automatically means that you're unable to say, "disarm an opponent" or "craft a tent?"
You know the answer to this. You just said it. It's a function of the class system. It's the same reason that being able to, say, "pick a lock" automatically means that you're unable to say, "disarm an opponent" or "craft a tent."
Quote from: SynthesisWhy can't I have a tribal burglar who routinely travels through heinous sandstorms in order to loot things from the city and return them to his tribe?
You can. It would be a special apped ranger with a few burglar skills thrown in. Write up an awesome backstory and convince whomever's doing special apps at the moment that it's a great concept.
I don't start with pick a lock at 100%, I have to build it. And in theory, if you wanted to allow pick a lock to be part of a subguild, you could. It's also possible for me to branch pick a lock. We're only arguing the you assess storm navigate under the same circumstance. I also agree that you cherry picked Syn's response.
We can break this argument down into four areas where we see conflict:
Realism - I think most of us agree that when balanced with Playability we want as much of this as possible.
Playability - We always want the game to be playable
Game Balance - we don't want to upset it
Consistency - We want the game world to be and feel consistent.
From a realism point of view - it's unrealistic that every ranger in game has a 100% success rate at navigating a storm and we have absolutely no granularity to the skill. Every skill in game with the exception of magic and possibly disarm can be included at weak levels to a character through subguild selection or branching. From a realism point of view - we're only asking that the navigation of storms and wilderness camping be treated in the same manner.
From a playability vs realism point of view - what are we really risking here? More flexibility in character creation? What I described above is unrealistic and modifying would only make the game more playable. So, where is the down side?
Game Balance - This I do get. We want rangers to be important. But - look - ranger delves are easily some of the most powerful characters in game and high levels of storm navigate has little to do with it. The level of Scan/Hide/Sneak/Poison/Archery rangers wield are incredibly potent. Rangers will remain important in the same way that Assassin remain important even though burglars can learn to backstab and the same way that burglars will remain important even though assassin's can learn to pick. It's about the concentration and highlevels of the skill. Allowing storm nav and camping in a subguild will not threaten ranger importance. It will only subject rangers to fact that they now need to realistically build the skill up.
There is also I imagine the worry that game balance will be thrown off by a flood of apps for Warrior/Nomads who can now dominate the wilds. To this I say Nay. Nay, naysayers. A desert walking nomad warrior will still be easy prey for a highly branched ranger who has mastered hide/sneak/archery/poison. Sure, they will be more closely matched now, but be sure the most highly feared creatures in the desert today have nothing to do with melee (maxed delf rangers). I would say the only real effect you will see is an increase in playability for human + elf tribals who want to play non-rangers. For example Muarki assassins should have moderate storm walking skills. Soh warriors should have moderate level of storm walking skills.
As for consistency, this is just obvious. It should be a skill. Even if you didn't give it to anyone else, make it a skill.
As for special apps - they're not a solution. They don't scale and special apps should be set aside for things that are most unusual or very much out of your reach as a player (karma) and require review. The issues here are balancing and playability and the discussion we're having surrounds the merit of including this in the game, not how we can crutch it in the current system. Even if nothing ever happens, we should still argue the merit.
Quote from: Cavaticus on November 18, 2009, 02:43:50 PM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on November 18, 2009, 02:35:40 PM
>quit now
You will quit the game in 5 minutes, unless something interrupts you.
...
...
Thanks for playing!
Neat.
Hyzhenhok . . . wow! Elegant solution to an old, old problem, or at least one persistent aspect of it. Well done. :)
Maxed delf rangers are the great white sharks of Arm's deserts.
How about if caravan guide could navigate storms only as long as they were walking? Once they jump onto a mount, they would start losing their bearing.
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 20, 2009, 10:27:44 PM
Maxed delf rangers are the great white sharks of Arm's deserts.
Depends on the D-Elf, some aren't all about raiding and killing.
I have always hated that D-elves get pushed to be scary when they all aren't.
Quote from: Cerelum on November 21, 2009, 01:57:34 AM
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 20, 2009, 10:27:44 PM
Maxed delf rangers are the great white sharks of Arm's deserts.
Depends on the D-Elf, some aren't all about raiding and killing.
I have always hated that D-elves get pushed to be scary when they all aren't.
I can think of a couple tribes that aren't pushed near as hard as they should be. ;)
I don't have much interesting to add to the argument.
I'm for giving sandstorm navigation to a subguild, possibly even a new "Navigator" subguild.
Quote from: Xagon on November 22, 2009, 09:18:37 AM
I don't have much interesting to add to the argument.
I'm for giving sandstorm navigation to a subguild, possibly even a new "Navigator" subguild.
Depends....do they have blue eyes, and float around in some orange gases? and can they pilot heigh-liners?