After using an erdlu as a mount for the past few chars, I'm a strong advocate for lowering mount stamina. As it is with currently, anything but an erdlu can run straight from Tuluk to Allanak. with maybe having to rest once.
I've found that I have more time to stop, roleplay, think, feel, and interact with other simply because I'm using an erdlu.
I would love to see mount stamina cut back a bit myself.
I pretty much always use erdlus IG. They're fast. 'nuff said. Though I do wish that other people would also stop, at least once, on a trip across the world, to let their mounts rest as well. Even if it's not necessary by the code, maybe you don't want to ride your animal until it's completely exhausted, right?
That said, though, I wouldn't want other mounts to have the same stamina as an erdlu. It's good that they have more. It's a good balance, short, speedy distance, or long, trudging distance. It makes sense, first off. And second, it's often very difficult to hunt without running an erdlu's stamina down in about the same number of rooms a ranger who's got decent endurance could walk, and it takes them much longer to regenerate it than it would the ranger.
Just sayin.
It takes a long time for any mount to regenerate stamina. I would find this to be incredibly annoying.
Quote from: Yam on November 12, 2009, 06:17:34 PM
It takes a long time for any mount to regenerate stamina. I would find this to be incredibly annoying.
I find potential raiding stock going from Tuluk to Red Storm without needing to stop for anything incredibly annoying.
Mounts don't actually take that much time to regenerate stamina. It seems like it because they have so much more than a PC.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 12, 2009, 06:39:32 PM
Mounts don't actually take that much time to regenerate stamina. It seems like it because they have so much more than a PC.
Who says PCs all regenerate at the same rate?
The point is, I don't want to wait an hour for my beetle to go from exhausted to a little weary. And that's about how long it takes in many areas of the game.
Also, the OP might be forgetting, that mounts aren't only used to ride the road. Off-road, mounts use a lot more stamina than they do on-road. They tire quicker, and need a lot longer to regen than when they're resting at "pick typical resting spot for mounts here" location.
If you reduce stamina for mounts, there will be a lot less travel -off- road. And that means a lot less interesting trouble to get into, and that also means a lot less income for those poor raiders, and random sorcerers hoping someone will come by to play with them.
Heh. I was actually referring to off the road. Considering certain IG things.
To add: I wouldn't even mind bumping the recharge rate for mount stamina. I just want people to stop every once in a damn while.
Currently, in game, with an erdlu, off the road( and I'm talking real tough terrain here too), I can get from tuluk to luirs in only one rest. That is with a mount that has the lowest stamina(that I know of) in game. I'm positive some of the other mounts hardly ever have to rest when taken outside.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 12, 2009, 06:01:35 PM
As it is with currently, anything but an erdlu can run straight from Tuluk to Allanak. with maybe having to rest once.
If you cut back war beetle stamina by much, it will be impossible to travel from Allanak to Luir's Outpost without resting it for 10-15 minutes...right smack dab in the middle of [censored] country.
It all depends on how you want the game to be. Right now, characters who can't kill gith, raptors, wild beetles, etc. still have decent mobility in the world because, mounted, they stand a chance of outrunning hostile things. If every journey requires a stop, this will no longer be possible, especially with the sorts of wildlife that will track you all the way across the Known World until killed by a gate guard.
I'm not sure, but I think we're better off with even non-buff rangers being able to, well, range.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 12, 2009, 07:02:01 PM
Currently, in game, with an erdlu, off the road( and I'm talking real tough terrain here too), I can get from tuluk to luirs in only one rest. That is with a mount that has the lowest stamina(that I know of) in game. I'm positive some of the other mounts hardly ever have to rest when taken outside.
That's true, but I think players have to be trusted to take the time and incorporate their environment, amongst many other things. For example, one could rent an exhausted mount then immediately pay 20 sid for it to be completely rested again. It's a loop hole, and it could be fixed, but for now we must entrust that the playerbase at a whole knows not to do this.
I'm not in favor of decreasing mount's stamina, as has been said, it takes a long time for mounts to regen as is, depending on the environment. If you've ever had to rest a tired mount in hot weather during a sandstorm, you'll know you may be resting for a good while.
Them wastes is plenty dangerous, son.
Plenty dangerous.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 12, 2009, 07:31:20 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 12, 2009, 06:01:35 PM
As it is with currently, anything but an erdlu can run straight from Tuluk to Allanak. with maybe having to rest once.
If you cut back war beetle stamina by much, it will be impossible to travel from Allanak to Luir's Outpost without resting it for 10-15 minutes...right smack dab in the middle of [censored] country.
It all depends on how you want the game to be. Right now, characters who can't kill gith, raptors, wild beetles, etc. still have decent mobility in the world because, mounted, they stand a chance of outrunning hostile things. If every journey requires a stop, this will no longer be possible, especially with the sorts of wildlife that will track you all the way across the Known World until killed by a gate guard.
I'm not sure, but I think we're better off with even non-buff rangers being able to, well, range.
My solution to this would be
A) Lower mounts number of endurance points say to 80% of current level.
B) Increase the mounts regeneration ability, to say, double of current if it's resting, equal to current if just standing there unmounted and unhindered by excessive amount of weight, and 1/2 standard regen rate as now if just riding/mounted normally (Stipulation to non-resting regen rates would be that they can't move for say 2 min)
C) You -CAN- walk mounts too, ever hold a Warbeetles' antennae while trudging through the wastes. Like a long beach with no water.
Quote from: shadeoux on November 12, 2009, 07:43:33 PM
My solution to this would be
A) Lower mounts number of endurance points say to 80% of current level.
B) Increase the mounts regeneration ability, to say, double of current if it's resting, equal to current if just standing there unmounted and unhindered by excessive amount of weight, and 1/2 standard regen rate as now if just riding/mounted normally (Stipulation to non-resting regen rates would be that they can't move for say 2 min)
C) You -CAN- walk mounts too, ever hold a Warbeetles' antennae while trudging through the wastes. Like a long beach with no water.
I would dig this. Especially if there was some way to feed and water mounts to regain energy (and dispense dung) quicker.
I'd be so down for the that.
/me 'gasms
Quote from: Rhyden on November 12, 2009, 07:50:27 PM
Quote from: shadeoux on November 12, 2009, 07:43:33 PM
My solution to this would be
A) Lower mounts number of endurance points say to 80% of current level.
B) Increase the mounts regeneration ability, to say, double of current if it's resting, equal to current if just standing there unmounted and unhindered by excessive amount of weight, and 1/2 standard regen rate as now if just riding/mounted normally (Stipulation to non-resting regen rates would be that they can't move for say 2 min)
C) You -CAN- walk mounts too, ever hold a Warbeetles' antennae while trudging through the wastes. Like a long beach with no water.
I would dig this. Especially if there was some way to feed and water mounts to regain energy (and dispense dung) quicker.
Feeding and watering mounts, that would add a whole new problem and sets of items for imms to do, I would leave this out and if you wanted to, just RP it out. 1) Eating and drinking for your PC doesn't give them endurance from eating, I'd say no go for me.
offer erdlu skin
you offer the erdlu your waterskin, and it drinks. (20 stam boost -20% water in skin)
It doesn't have to be used with food items. I'm sure some other code could be worked around to doing this.
Addendum: Though maybe not easily. I've no idea.
I posted this in another thread, but I'll repost it here because it's still my main concern:
Quote from: Fathi on October 05, 2009, 08:04:10 PM
I would suggest cutting the amount of stamina that certain mounts get, but on the other hand, I wouldn't want to do that in a world where animals can insta-track to you no matter how far you run. Hm.
I think this change would do wonders for making travel more dangerous and interesting, yes.
But unless the way NPCs operate was drastically changed, I think that a change like this would only result in frustration and a bunch of dead newbie PCs. Raptors and other such tracking critters are already
plenty dangerous and I fear that this change would make certain types of critter just about inescapable.
That is truth. Hm.
The emphasis shouldn't be so much on slowing down mounts. The main things is to make rest spots more important for everyone outside of the cities. Make it so that most people can hop between population centers with very short rests at the primary rest stops along the road. We want people to be stopping and resting for a bit, but not forever, and off-road travel is already difficult enough. Tracking monsters usually don't aggro on you if you stick to the North Road; frankly, I'd be happy if the changes would stymie the "oh shit, I aggro'd something that tracks me, time to run to a city" mentality.
Increase the stamina cost for travelling on the road, but greatly increase the stamina regen for mounts who are resting in shaded rest areas. For major roads that don't have obvious frequent rest stops, add some. They should either be on the road itself or visible from the road. The goal would be to have people take a handful of minutes at each rest stop whenever they use the road, and to make things a little more treacherous for those who are in a hurry and can't afford to stop. You could even make a lot of these rest spots safe from tracking creatures; there are already rooms in the game that baddies will not follow you into.
Raiders would have a nice group of areas they could target with reasonable expectation of finding interaction. Anti-raiders would have points they could focus their guarding on. People would be more likely to find interaction along the road. Right now, that kind of interaction is extremely limited: it's almost entirely only d-elves and northern rangers who are deliberately using an erdlu who use the rest spots.
Awesome idea Hyzhenhok.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on November 12, 2009, 08:34:07 PM
frankly, I'd be happy if the changes would stymie the "oh shit, I aggro'd something that tracks me, time to run to a city" mentality.
I don't want to derail the thread much, but this post left kind of a sour taste in my mouth.
What other option IS there, the way these creatures are currently coded? If you can't kill them, your only options are to run to a city or die. Distracting them with other prey doesn't work. Only one guild can hide from them. They don't get tired. They don't have to rest. They don't even have to use the hunt skill or pass a hunt check. It's the Zalanthan equivalent of being chased by a Terminator T-1000.
Don't blame players for taking the only survivable option around thanks to the fact that the code behaves in an unrealistic, asinine way.
I'd just like to chime in with ... if mounts' stamina takes a cut, I think it only fair desert elf legs take a cut as well. They are already magick enough as it is in comparison to riding anything.
QuoteHitch (Movement)
This command allows your character to lead a mount (or several mounts if you have enough familiarity with mounts) by their reins, as opposed to riding them. This will enable them to walk further, allow you to bring more supplies/goods on a journey, if desired.
I wish they didn't loose quite as much stamina as they still do, but you can effectively use this to increase your travel range somewhat.
I'm really not in favor of cutting mounts stamina. Even with a boost in regen, it would make things much more frustrating to those who do have to cross the sands as part of their role. As it is, recent IG events have caused travel to be quite a bit more hazardous and time-consuming.
For the most part that's good. But you're talking of adding more frequent rests, and so on. Keep in mind this adds more RL time to be able to make that trek from Tuluk to Allanak. Now sometimes I wouldn't mind this. But there are days where it's difficult to find the RL time to do a trek from one city to the other and back.
Also, yes, there will be times when characters need to be able to outrun the various dangers of the wastes. I do not want to see the average warbeetle suddenly less able to do so in a pinch, mid-trek. The last thing I want to do is run into Extremely Dangerous Huge Creature while my mount is already tiring.
If you really want to disadvantage erdlus from being used the way you are using it, then perhaps just the erdlus could be made weaker. As it is, many players can't even ride them because the birds just can't carry very much weight.
But as far as I'm concerned, I really don't want to have even more difficulties thrown at me because of it.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 12, 2009, 06:36:02 PM
Quote from: Yam on November 12, 2009, 06:17:34 PM
It takes a long time for any mount to regenerate stamina. I would find this to be incredibly annoying.
I find potential raiding stock going from Tuluk to Red Storm without needing to stop for anything incredibly annoying.
Only beetles can do that, and just barely if they stick to only the road. Beetles are also incredibly slow.
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 13, 2009, 08:05:09 AM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 12, 2009, 06:36:02 PM
Quote from: Yam on November 12, 2009, 06:17:34 PM
It takes a long time for any mount to regenerate stamina. I would find this to be incredibly annoying.
I find potential raiding stock going from Tuluk to Red Storm without needing to stop for anything incredibly annoying.
Only beetles can do that, and just barely if they stick to only the road. Beetles are also incredibly slow.
I disagree, inix can do it as well, and my last PC's war beetle mostly (give or take falling behind a time or two) kept up with desert elves, running from the middle of Vrun Driath all the way west to the scary area over some very hash terrain without needing to stop for a rest any more often than the elves did. I don't think beetles are that slow, compared to say, inix. And they certainly have more than enough stamina.
It sounds to me though, like this conversation is tracing back to a deeper root issue: Should most common PC's (ie not flying magickers and 150 day rangers with tamed silt flyers) be able to get from one side of the known world to the other at the drop of a hat?
If you think traveling from one side of the world to the other can be accomplished, right now, at the drop of the hat for a new PC, I highly encourage you to try it.
P.S. Your boots are mine, sucker.
I think it's fine the way it is.
Quote from: jhunter on November 13, 2009, 09:52:38 AM
I think it's fine the way it is.
I think it's fine the way it is, BUT...
Quote from: Fathi on November 12, 2009, 08:43:54 PM
If you can't kill them, your only options are to run to a city or die. Distracting them with other prey doesn't work. Only one guild can hide from them. They don't get tired. They don't have to rest. They don't even have to use the hunt skill or pass a hunt check. It's the Zalanthan equivalent of being chased by a Terminator T-1000.
...a mount stamina reduction would add Interesting Things, IF we could get limits puts on the turbo-tracking monsters.
I think it depends on the actual distance between the cities. There are 65 rooms between Tuluk and Luirs. If each room is a league long (as is traditionally thought) then the path is a full 195 miles away. Some of these rooms are not a league wide. The span, for example, has treacherous footing. The fortress along the road is not three miles long, either.
For comparison, a modern day horse, if well trained and in shape, can cover about 50 miles a day. I'd assume horses in Zalanthas are much hardier, beetles, inix, and the like even more so. For a modern horse the trip between the two cities is about a four day trip (6 hours IRL).
...
(I'm going to continue this post tomorrow, as sleep deprecation is catching up quickly.)
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 13, 2009, 10:01:15 AM
Quote from: jhunter on November 13, 2009, 09:52:38 AM
I think it's fine the way it is.
I think it's fine the way it is, BUT...
Quote from: Fathi on November 12, 2009, 08:43:54 PM
If you can't kill them, your only options are to run to a city or die. Distracting them with other prey doesn't work. Only one guild can hide from them. They don't get tired. They don't have to rest. They don't even have to use the hunt skill or pass a hunt check. It's the Zalanthan equivalent of being chased by a Terminator T-1000.
...a mount stamina reduction would add Interesting Things, IF we could get limits puts on the turbo-tracking monsters.
True enough.
I'd just like to say:
If your target's mount's stamina is a factor in the equation, you're a shitty raider.
Quote from: musashi on November 13, 2009, 08:25:18 AM
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 13, 2009, 08:05:09 AM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 12, 2009, 06:36:02 PM
Quote from: Yam on November 12, 2009, 06:17:34 PM
It takes a long time for any mount to regenerate stamina. I would find this to be incredibly annoying.
I find potential raiding stock going from Tuluk to Red Storm without needing to stop for anything incredibly annoying.
Only beetles can do that, and just barely if they stick to only the road. Beetles are also incredibly slow.
I disagree, inix can do it as well, and my last PC's war beetle mostly (give or take falling behind a time or two) kept up with desert elves, running from the middle of Vrun Driath all the way west to the scary area over some very hash terrain without needing to stop for a rest any more often than the elves did. I don't think beetles are that slow, compared to say, inix. And they certainly have more than enough stamina.
For one thing, inix are way faster than war beetles. And yes, a war beetle's stamina is the main reason to ride one over an inix.
Secondly, if your inix was able to make it from Red Storm to Tuluk without resting, then it was like no inix I've ever ridden.
As for a war beetle keeping up with desert elves over rough terrain...Maybe for a little while.
Quote from: Kryos on November 13, 2009, 09:45:39 AM
If you think traveling from one side of the world to the other can be accomplished, right now, at the drop of the hat for a new PC, I highly encourage you to try it.
P.S. Your boots are mine, sucker.
It's been done many, many times. By guild merchants, no less. And I was saying that I think the deeper root argument in question was on whether or not normal mundane PC's in general, not only new ones, should be able to easily traverse the spaces inbetween the settlements without needing to do some planning and group arrangements first. I kind of have mixed feelings on that myself, but just from reading some of the arguements folks were making in favor of, and against reducing mount stamina in this thread ... seemed to me like the actual motivation for such statements had more to do with wanting, or not wanting, players to be able to easily get from Allanak to Tuluk ... and not so much to do with whether or not they thought the mount's current stamina ratings were realistic or balanced. That's all I was saying.
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 13, 2009, 01:24:10 PM
For one thing, inix are way faster than war beetles. And yes, a war beetle's stamina is the main reason to ride one over an inix.
Secondly, if your inix was able to make it from Red Storm to Tuluk without resting, then it was like no inix I've ever ridden.
As for a war beetle keeping up with desert elves over rough terrain...Maybe for a little while.
I guess, wild inix FTW? I dunno, I've never had a PC who rode a stable purchased one, but hell even wild oxen can make it from Tuluk to Red Storm without a break if you keep to the roads. Or could I should say, before IG events made some parts of the road ... interesting.
For the war beetle bit I guess we're just disagreeing. I've always found inix to be slower.
Quote from: musashi on November 13, 2009, 02:51:51 PM
It's been done many, many times. By guild merchants, no less. And I was saying that I think the deeper root argument in question was on whether or not normal mundane PC's in general, not only new ones, should be able to easily traverse the spaces inbetween the settlements without needing to do some planning and group arrangements first. I kind of have mixed feelings on that myself, but just from reading some of the arguements folks were making in favor of, and against reducing mount stamina in this thread ... seemed to me like the actual motivation for such statements had more to do with wanting, or not wanting, players to be able to easily get from Allanak to Tuluk ... and not so much to do with whether or not they thought the mount's current stamina ratings were realistic or balanced. That's all I was saying.
I would say that right now, going as a guild merchant between big cities was a big gamble on your life. Sure, you can succeed. Some times the horrors of the wastes just aren't prowling at this particular time. But, that other half is a dark, short road. I've done a lot of traveling recently, and I'd firmly state things are scary enough. As for mount stamina, I'm comfortable with it as it is.
I think the scope of time is what really distorts things. Moving at a casual pace, neither animals nor people tire quickly. Overland marches can cover some huge swaths of territory if done on a beast. however, since it takes such little time IG to do so, it feels . . . diminutive to what we expect the distance to be.
Yes, under current (though perhaps temporary) circumstances, it's more dangerous than before, for sure.
Also agree with the bit on things feeling diminutive.
Quote from: musashi on November 13, 2009, 02:51:51 PM
For the war beetle bit I guess we're just disagreeing. I've always found inix to be slower.
Inix, per (old?) documentation or the look description or somethin', can outrun a kank over short distances, even if the kank is living. If we spam our ride on an inix, we can leave your friends behind. 'Cause your friends ride bugs; and, if they ride bugs, then they're no friends of mine.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 13, 2009, 09:17:09 PM
Quote from: musashi on November 13, 2009, 02:51:51 PM
For the war beetle bit I guess we're just disagreeing. I've always found inix to be slower.
Inix, per (old?) documentation or the look description or somethin', can outrun a kank over short distances, even if the kank is living. If we spam our ride on an inix, we can leave your friends behind. 'Cause your friends ride bugs; and, if they ride bugs, then they're no friends of mine.
... The docs ... ... say a lot of things :-\
Quote from: musashi on November 13, 2009, 11:50:31 PM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 13, 2009, 09:17:09 PM
Quote from: musashi on November 13, 2009, 02:51:51 PM
For the war beetle bit I guess we're just disagreeing. I've always found inix to be slower.
Inix, per (old?) documentation or the look description or somethin', can outrun a kank over short distances, even if the kank is living. If we spam our ride on an inix, we can leave your friends behind. 'Cause your friends ride bugs; and, if they ride bugs, then they're no friends of mine.
... The docs ... ... say a lot of things :-\
But, unless I've totally mangled my memories, spamriding at walk speed on an inix WILL cause you to outrun your beetle-ridin' followers.
It will, and in a low number of rooms too.
Yes, inix are faster than warbeetles.
Sheesh, pay attention when you're playing the game, people.
Couldn't all of this been kept as IC information? As in, let's not discuss the stamina levels and movement speed of specific mount types on the GDB? Specifics aren't necessary to talk about whether or not mount stamina in general is too high.
Any NPC stablehand or vNPC hunter worth his travel cakes would know that a war beetle is slower than an inix, and that sunbacks are so slow that the Dragon will return before you make it from Tuluk to Allanak on one.
This is information that everyone legitimately has a right to know.
I disagree. It's stuff that can be asked IC and inferred from mount prices in general. It doesn't -need- to be said. I'm not trying to put it on the level of a Whiran's skill tree or something, I'm just saying that it's very, very easy to find out IC and it should be found out IC.
I haven't seen anything in here that isn't readily apparent from various helpfiles.
ANY mount will "out run" you if not both of them are CODEDLY running. As in, all followers must ALSO type run. I've found the inix STILL lag behind when someone riding a war beetle is in command. Heck, even when I'm walking my beetle, the inix riders often lag behind.
I dunno what you guys are on about. :-p
On topic, no, I don't think that mount stam needs to be dropped. Where it stands now, you HAVE to rest your mounts TWICE to make it from Tuluk to Nak. Especially if you want to run that certain stretch that tends to be filled with those T-1000 creatures that like to track you from Nak to Tuluk.
Yes, when the roads were still mostly safe, I could run my beetle from Tuluk to Nak and it be at the point of exhaustion, only BARELY making it in. As it was BEFORE most recent events, where you could still follow MOST of the road, you could WALK your beetle the distance, and make it to Nak very tired.
And I've never been able to keep up with a delf. Not on a beetle, not on an inix. They're too fast, and now I can't even charge them to the ground and give myself a CHANCE to kill the fuckers who manage to keep 1-2 rooms ahead and shoot me dead because I can't catch them. Filthy neckers. :D
Quote from: tortall on November 14, 2009, 03:42:15 PM
ANY mount will "out run" you if not both of them are CODEDLY running. As in, all followers must ALSO type run. I've found the inix STILL lag behind when someone riding a war beetle is in command. Heck, even when I'm walking my beetle, the inix riders often lag behind.
I dunno what you guys are on about. :-p
On topic, no, I don't think that mount stam needs to be dropped. Where it stands now, you HAVE to rest your mounts TWICE to make it from Tuluk to Nak. Especially if you want to run that certain stretch that tends to be filled with those T-1000 creatures that like to track you from Nak to Tuluk.
Yes, when the roads were still mostly safe, I could run my beetle from Tuluk to Nak and it be at the point of exhaustion, only BARELY making it in. As it was BEFORE most recent events, where you could still follow MOST of the road, you could WALK your beetle the distance, and make it to Nak very tired.
And I've never been able to keep up with a delf. Not on a beetle, not on an inix. They're too fast, and now I can't even charge them to the ground and give myself a CHANCE to kill the fuckers who manage to keep 1-2 rooms ahead and shoot me dead because I can't catch them. Filthy neckers. :D
Are you sure the inix riders weren't just failing at ride? And inix can definitely run down a delf, depending on typing speed. A running war beetle is about how fast a running delf is.
I'm sorry we derailed your thread RGS :D
I think it would make more sense to move the cities further apart.
Lowering mount stamina would have unintended consequences like making hunting more dull.
Quote from: musashi on November 15, 2009, 09:22:59 AM
I'm sorry we derailed your thread RGS :D
Derail? I forgot this thread existed.
I'm addicted. :(
Me too. I'm doing it right now :'(
We need help Mushmush.
Yeah, help remembering where I put the rest of it.
You'll only remember when you're high again, which is a fatal flaw considering you need it to get there.