I think this post should go here...
What do you all think about rooms that are "holes" that you can't even approach without falling into?
So many times (really, I'm kinda slow like this) I have characters approach some type of hole because they want to look down into it, but upon approaching, fall into it.
Seriously, do you always fall off a cliff just by peering over it?
This, I find, is annoying.
::)
Look before you leap.
If there's not a message of any sort that gives you an idea that the next room will be one in which you fall down, let us know and we'll go fix it. (If there's no message, that's usually a typo.)
The holes you're speaking of are dug as traps, and are neigh impossible to see from the angle the trapee is suppose to come from.
But I agree, once a character knows about the hole, he shouldn't fall into it.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 05, 2009, 11:50:19 AM
The holes you're speaking of are dug as traps, and are neigh impossible to see from the angle the trapee is suppose to come from.
But I agree, once a character knows about the hole, he shouldn't fall into it.
Actually, I think you got it right - that's exactly what annoys me. If my character can see "massive hole to the east" going east should put him on the lip of the hole (able to look into it) and not at the bottom of it.
This is a time where it comes down to mechanics. If you forget to grab your sword before going outside and you do draw sword and end up dying, is it the players fault or the characters? Would the character really have forgotten his sword? Or his armor? Whatever. The point is that you can't code for stuff like that. You could have fallen into the hole for any number of reasons if your character knows about the hole. Maybe they did approach and slipped down into it. If you don't have climb you shouldn't be nearing the edge of any hole to begin with. If you do have climb it's safe to assume that you went close enough to have to climb over the edge.
Personally I blame the Maritoba-nong clan of Halflings who hang around holes, invisible, until someone comes to look down them and them -WHAM- the Maritoba-Nong Halflings push them into the hole and go laughing all the way back to their club house in the village.
The fact that you can't look into a hole without making a climb check is frustrating.
It would be far too much work to go back and do this now, but perhaps going forward with new room building, the rooms around the hole could have this function:
"You are standing on the ground. To the east is a chasm."
> l chasm
"Looking into the chasm to the east, you see: Near: Nothing, Far: An annoyed desert elf fighting with four gith and some random mount that got stuck down there."
"You hear a male voice shout from the chasm to the east in allundean, "Quick Sits-In-Bamuk-Piss, throw me the rope!"
> shout (unslinging ~rope) I'll save you!
"Unslinging your rope, you shout in allundean, "I'll save you!"
> e
"You try to climb, but you slip! Ha HA!"
I say make the holes tent-like objects, and the room it's in has a chance to teleport(fall) you into it. With proper echo's of course.
I like the 'look chasm' idea.
Yeah... I guess I do too.
Actually, you can't look down a cliff or into a hole (and not all holes are traps). This is unrealistic and I sympathize with the OP.
You can look into a hole or down a cliff.
You just have to pass your climb check to do it.
I guess you have to shimmy halfway down to get a better look. *chuckle*
Well, yes, of course. I meant that normal people without climb and those that fail their climb check can't look down holes or cliffs... except the hard way.
Hehe. Sits in Bamuk Piss.
There is at least one hole in game that you can look down without having to climb over it. I would like more or all holes to be like that one.
There are indeed. If I get the chance IG, I'll try and send up a few holes that have no warnings about their existence, too. I know of at least two without actively searching more out.
Quote from: Thunkkin on November 05, 2009, 12:34:49 PM
The fact that you can't look into a hole without making a climb check is frustrating.
Ya know, the price of being unprepared is not doing everything you want to. Sorry, you don't get to look down that hole.
That's called caution.
Quote from: Rotten on November 07, 2009, 01:53:27 PM
Ya know, the price of being unprepared is not doing everything you want to. Sorry, you don't get to look down that hole.
That's called caution.
This is more about what would be realistic and yet was overlooked by the code.
Quote from: Rotten on November 07, 2009, 01:53:27 PM
Ya know, the price of being unprepared is not doing everything you want to. Sorry, you don't get to look down that hole.
That's called caution.
I was able to look down into the Grand Canyon without throwing myself into it and without having to cling to one of its walls like a spider.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on November 07, 2009, 04:46:40 PM
Quote from: Rotten on November 07, 2009, 01:53:27 PM
Ya know, the price of being unprepared is not doing everything you want to. Sorry, you don't get to look down that hole.
That's called caution.
I was able to look down into the Grand Canyon without throwing myself into it and without having to cling to one of its walls like a spider.
I failed my climb check, but was luckily able to scramble for purchase.
Quote from: Xagon on November 07, 2009, 05:47:54 PM
Quote from: Salt Merchant on November 07, 2009, 04:46:40 PM
Quote from: Rotten on November 07, 2009, 01:53:27 PM
Ya know, the price of being unprepared is not doing everything you want to. Sorry, you don't get to look down that hole.
That's called caution.
I was able to look down into the Grand Canyon without throwing myself into it and without having to cling to one of its walls like a spider.
Salt Merchant is not in the RL Byn and Xagon is?
I failed my climb check, but was luckily able to scramble for purchase.
Quote from: Thunkkin on November 05, 2009, 12:34:49 PM
The fact that you can't look into a hole without making a climb check is frustrating.
Grr, agreed. I've wished for this many times.
You are in the desert. [exits: N, S, E]
100/100/100> look n e
To the north you see: A sun blasted desert.
To the east you see: A sun blasted desert, with a hole in it.
To the north and east you see: A sun blasted desert.
100/100/100> think OMG!
100/100/100> look e d
To the east and down you see: The bottom of a hole. The body of the tall, muscular man is here.
I just wish the "hey, there's a fuckin' hole here, dumbass" warnings were in the output for look <direction> AND in the room description, instead of just the room description.
When I'm out in the desert, 90% of my attention is devoted to l e;l n;l w;l s.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 08, 2009, 09:46:34 PM
I just wish the "hey, there's a fuckin' hole here, dumbass" warnings were in the output for look <direction> AND in the room description, instead of just the room description.
When I'm out in the desert, 90% of my attention is devoted to l e;l n;l w;l s.
This. 1000x this.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 08, 2009, 09:46:34 PM
I just wish the "hey, there's a fuckin' hole here, dumbass" warnings were in the output for look <direction> AND in the room description, instead of just the room description.
When I'm out in the desert, 90% of my attention is devoted to l e;l n;l w;l s.
Agreed.
The trouble is, sometimes, the hole is -in- the room. Sometimes, the hole -is- the room. There are many rooms where you can go, where it's just the usual spot on in the area - and you can look down while you're standing there and see that there's a hole, in the room, where you're standing, but you're not falling in, because it's not the entire room that's the hole.
Then there's the situation you're all talking about, where the room IS the hole, rather than the room containing a hole.
Since the current version of Arm contains both, there has to be some reasonable expectation that if you don't look east, and go east anyway, you might fall into a hole. However, there should also be a reasonable expectation that if you -do- look east, and the room itself IS a hole, that you'd notice the drop.
A hole -in- the room, would be a different matter entirely. If the ground is sturdy, and there's simply a hole in it, there's no reason why you'd notice that from what amounts to a city block of distance away.
If there is something in your current room's description that says, "Hey, looks like there might be a trap to the east," you should also see, "Hey, there might be a trap to the east," when you actually look east.
That's all I'm sayin', man.
I think you should only fall into the hole if you are running. If you are walking, you have time to stop.
Maybe not walk. Walking absently into holes is pretty common, I think.
Sneak. I think if we "slow down and start moving carefully" we should be able to avoid almost obvious holes in the room description. Note: not including the secret holes only the dead know about...
I dunno. Here's the way I see it. If you, the player, are only reading the output from l e, l n, l s, then your pc is focusing more on the horizon than where he is stepping. I have a feeling that the hole(s) you are referring to were made intentionally as traps and steps were made to conceal them. In fact, even if you read full room descriptions every time, sometimes traps are only hinted to. That's because they're traps. It is designed to be inconvenient to your characters. So you ran into a hole you didn't see? Maybe the sun was in your eyes? Maybe next time you won't move so hastily in an area you're unfamiliar with. Your character is capable of error.
Besides, Most of the holes I've fallen into weren't even fatal. If things were as harsh as they could be, they'd be lined with spikes.
My next character is going to line them with spikes.
Quote from: Uberskaapie on November 09, 2009, 09:44:57 AM
Maybe next time you won't move so hastily in an area you're unfamiliar with. Your character is capable of error.
> sneak
You slow down and start moving carefully.Capable of error. And unable to learn, I suppose. Well... unless you had a certain skill.
typo room Hey, there's a gorge/hole/etc in X direction and I know it, but I can't see it by looking in x direction, nor is it apparent in the room description. thanks
That's a great idea Nyr. The only problem with it, is that it would usually be more like this:
e-mail to mud@armageddon.org
subject A hole
I would've typoed this in game, but I was too busy being dead. So here's the thing. In the scrub west of the green-striped tower, 3 rooms west, 1 room north, the exit -from- that room, to the next room north, is actually a fall zone into death. But when you are standing in that 3rd room west, 1st room north, and type "look north" you don't see a drop. You only see "The vast scrubland continues here."
I discovered this by dying, and thought I'd send you a heads-up.
Love and kisses,
Lizzie, player of Elf #79 (Died to a fall, amen)
I have never, ever seen a death-worthy fall room that was not indicated in the room description. Ever.
And I've been everywhere, man.
Quote from: Adiadochokinesis on November 09, 2009, 12:28:34 PM
I have never, ever seen a death-worthy fall room that was not indicated in the room description. Ever.
And I've been everywhere, man.
That much is true... I've died trying to climb my way back out, or leave by other ways, but never from the fall alone. Even when I jumped off the Shield Wall and fell more than 2 rooms. I was still even healthy enough (IG) to heal with only a bit of rest.
My point is that I remember personally going in and adding look descs to a lot of the pits that "appeared" over the past few years, and even the ones that don't show a specific look desc do show "over the edge" or "a gorge" if you look in that direction (as the room title). Given that, I'd say the occurrences of this have been reduced to almost 0, with a few possible outliers.
You can e-mail--whatever works, of course. Typo is a more efficient tool, but not very helpful if you just died there. In that case, e-mail and say "I died in a room that..." and list the above about the directional stuff. I feel generous, so you can e-mail me (cc mud) if you have one in mind, but you'll need to be as specific as possible.
Quote from: Nyr on November 09, 2009, 12:51:49 PM
My point is that I remember personally going in and adding look descs to a lot of the pits that "appeared" over the past few years, and even the ones that don't show a specific look desc do show "over the edge" or "a gorge" if you look in that direction (as the room title). Given that, I'd say the occurrences of this have been reduced to almost 0, with a few possible outliers.
You can e-mail--whatever works, of course. Typo is a more efficient tool, but not very helpful if you just died there. In that case, e-mail and say "I died in a room that..." and list the above about the directional stuff. I feel generous, so you can e-mail me (cc mud) if you have one in mind, but you'll need to be as specific as possible.
Yeah, I'll admit, I was lazy about this. The problem with the Tablelands is that there are the day and night descriptions. Sometimes, all the little goodies to indicate that pit over there disappear when the sun goes down.
Problem? Have you ever tried finding a hole in the ground during the darkest hours of the night?
Quote from: Rhyden on November 09, 2009, 03:13:48 PM
Problem? Have you ever tried finding a hole in the ground during the darkest hours of the night?
That degree of darkness is well represented by a moonless night without any light source of your own. Your example doesn't really apply.
Quote from: Rotten on November 09, 2009, 03:36:16 PM
Quote from: Rhyden on November 09, 2009, 03:13:48 PM
Problem? Have you ever tried finding a hole in the ground during the darkest hours of the night?
That degree of darkness is well represented by a moonless night without any light source of your own. Your example doesn't really apply.
Sure it does. When it's dark out, it's harder to see. Moons may alter the state of light or they may not, but overall, it will still be dark. If there's a hole somewhere with both moons out at dark and you think there should be a 'marker' saying there's a hole nearby, typo or bug it.
What I have a problem with is the "no climb" fall rooms.
The edge of a ledge.
rdesc
l south
The edge of a ledge.
s
you carefully climb south
The edge of a ledge.
rdesc
l south
The edge of a ledge.
s
You plummet to the ground below.
No warning, nothing, just "Oops, for some odd reason you jumped out into the air!"
No climb rooms...ALL of them, should have a shield wall style warning to them AND all the rooms leading to them should have some indication that the direction in question is a leap into space.
The last time I hit one, which was not a simple 1 or 2 room fall BTW, I very nearly wished up with some rather nasty comments. But decided the odds of the builder being on at that time were rather low.
Quote from: X-D on November 09, 2009, 08:37:19 PM
What I have a problem with is the "no climb" fall rooms.
The edge of a ledge.
rdesc
l south
The edge of a ledge.
s
you carefully climb south
The edge of a ledge.
rdesc
l south
The edge of a ledge.
s
You plummet to the ground below.
No warning, nothing, just "Oops, for some odd reason you jumped out into the air!"
No climb rooms...ALL of them, should have a shield wall style warning to them AND all the rooms leading to them should have some indication that the direction in question is a leap into space.
The last time I hit one, which was not a simple 1 or 2 room fall BTW, I very nearly wished up with some rather nasty comments. But decided the odds of the builder being on at that time were rather low.
I'll +1 this. Those are annoying.
Um... Nyr, can't the staff find out exactly which room the character died in? Shouldn't we be able to say, "Account: spawnloser, Character: Falls-Off-Walls. Falls-Off-Walls just died. He was travelling north and fell into the room where he died. Where he fell from there was no warning in the room description or 'look direction' information to indicate I would fall. Thanks." ?
Quote from: Rotten on November 09, 2009, 03:11:37 PM
Quote from: Nyr on November 09, 2009, 12:51:49 PM
My point is that I remember personally going in and adding look descs to a lot of the pits that "appeared" over the past few years, and even the ones that don't show a specific look desc do show "over the edge" or "a gorge" if you look in that direction (as the room title). Given that, I'd say the occurrences of this have been reduced to almost 0, with a few possible outliers.
You can e-mail--whatever works, of course. Typo is a more efficient tool, but not very helpful if you just died there. In that case, e-mail and say "I died in a room that..." and list the above about the directional stuff. I feel generous, so you can e-mail me (cc mud) if you have one in mind, but you'll need to be as specific as possible.
Yeah, I'll admit, I was lazy about this. The problem with the Tablelands is that there are the day and night descriptions. Sometimes, all the little goodies to indicate that pit over there disappear when the sun goes down.
This. I keep brief room on 'cause it's mostly room spam. I didn't codedly know that some room holes were in the previous rooms mdesc. Nearly died.
I enjoy the pits. If you live there, you likely already know where the damn things are, and if you don't live there, well...then someone doesn't want you there, do they? But, like Nyr said, paying a little bit of attention'll keep you out of the things.