Armageddon General Discussion Board

There seems to be a growing trend (at least in the south) to treat every female character as a potential whore. Now, yes, there's no shame in Zalanthas in being a whore, but the whores do tend to advertise themselves. Also, there's a growing trend to openly talk of wanting sex with a female character, to her face, and baldly inviting them into the sack without even preliminaries. Or even talk amongst male characters of raping a female character, sometimes in front of other female characters.

Does this make female players uncomfortable?

Since I'm playing one of these male characters that frequently involved himself with pc, npc, and vnpc whores often--I can say that it does make female players uncomfortable, at least from my perspective.

I thought apartment mudsex was just a way to rack up your PK count.

I've kind of wondered about this myself, as I've played one or two characters who were extremely forward about sex.

First of all, I'm a male player who tends to play male characters.

And even I feel uncomfortable seeing some of the sexual crap that happens IG.

Not everyone is interested in sexual RP. I'd imagine a lot less are into rape RP. I thought even pursuing a rape plot required the victim's consent? What's going on here?

I don't really mind so much when it comes to the characters that seem to be attracted to everything. It's the devious sort that enjoy consorting with someone who would be socially strange to have sex with, and the people who speak of rape that bother me.

Quote from: Eyeball on July 25, 2009, 07:57:35 PM
There seems to be a growing trend (at least in the south) to treat every female character as a potential whore. Now, yes, there's no shame in Zalanthas in being a whore, but the whores do tend to advertise themselves. Also, there's a growing trend to openly talk of wanting sex with a female character, to her face, and baldly inviting them into the sack without even preliminaries. Or even talk amongst male characters of raping a female character, sometimes in front of other female characters.

Does this make female players uncomfortable?

There's a whole bunch of topics you're mentioning here, and they're not all equal.

1) trend to treat every female character as a potential whore:

I, the player, find this highly objectionable, because it is isn't believable roleplay in the world of Zalanthas. Unless your character is a psychopath, he (or she) would -not- treat even most female PCs as a potential whore. He/she would have certain tastes...would find certain females attractive, and NOT find certain other females attractive. Also, in a world where a high-ranking concubine (who is higher ranking than even many merchant house family members) can snap her fingers and you'd be dead, it's not *safe* to treat most female players as potential whores. Furthermore, why whores? Why not - potential sparring partners? Why not, potential personal stylists? Why not, armor-fitters? Why should it be necessary to *specifically go out of your way to* objectify females sexually? What is the impetus for that personality trait? That's what I object to: the idea that any player would feel this is the only possible way their character could behave in the presence of a female.

A character who is continually horny, who has some kind of mental disconnection between his cock and his brain - that's not sexually objectifying a female. That's an interesting character quirk, that could manifest just by being offered a piece of raw meat, or noticing that the shape of a knothole in a log happens to be the exact shape of the head of his penis.

2. The discussion about raping women in public: I find it unneccessary and distasteful, but not personally hurtful. I question anyone who would obsess with it or make it a primary focus of their character, but wouldn't phase me in the least if it came up in conversation on occasion.

3. Wanting sex with a female character: Again, the issue is more, "is this all your character can ever talk about? How 1-dimensional, dull, overdone, and uninteresting of you" rather than "omg he said penis someone get me a xanax." If your character is capable of other things, of talking about other things, if he expresses an interest in other things, and sex is simply one of those many things that makes him who he is, then terrific. If I can predict with remarkable accuracy that I'll overhear your character hitting on a woman anywhere I happen to bump into him, then maybe you should add a little something new to your repertoire.

Doesn't bother me.  It's just a game, and I'm a big girl.

This problem could be solved IC, methinks?

Where is the who cares option?

Course, by that I mean, If the female PC is getting too many direct offers and is actually being played by a female (Ha!) There are things they can do about it IC...or, play males...or, don't play. Personaly I think PCs in Zalanthus are far less horny acting then they would realisticly be. Don't get me wrong, that makes me happy. I've seen many the "RP" mud/mush where thats pretty much all that goes on. I really don't see a problem IG....Well, unless you are playing the rare and coveted female dwarf.

Oh, and I wanted to add, on this point.

Quote2. The discussion about raping women in public:

I would think that even talking about rape would be covered under the consent rules and I would not hesitate to file complaint on anybody who was publicly talking about it, specialy in detail if they did not ask for and get consent.

Quote from: X-D on July 25, 2009, 10:32:50 PM
Where is the who cares option?

Course, by that I mean, If the female PC is getting too many direct offers and is actually being played by a female (Ha!) There are things they can do about it IC...or, play males...or, don't play. Personaly I think PCs in Zalanthus are far less horny acting then they would realisticly be. Don't get me wrong, that makes me happy. I've seen many the "RP" mud/mush where thats pretty much all that goes on. I really don't see a problem IG....Well, unless you are playing the rare and coveted female dwarf.

All hail, the queen of beauty has arrived!

I've played male and female characters with various sexual habits. Nobody seemed to get overtly uncomfortable when my characters made weird advances toward them.
Hell, once I played a mutant that used to try to hit on normal humans by praising the fact that they had "appealingly average facial features" and "the correct amount of teeth." That approach was designed to make the character feel uncomfortable and got some great reactions, but overall I didn't get any adverse OOC reaction.

On the other hand... I played a female character who objected to contact with other people in most ways. She got hit on constantly, but it didn't bother me as a player. I suspect a lot of people might have thought that sexual advances toward that PC bothered me as a player because of how strongly the character reacted to it. But it didn't! She was just a little quirky.

My opinion on the subject is that discussion of sex and sexual things is very common and Zalanthas is a very rough and tumble place. I think that if a player is bothered by such talk, they're welcome to take their character elsewhere and move in different social circles. I doubt most Arm-playing chicks are too bothered by this, honestly.

Rape is a touchier subject. I don't think consent should necessarily be required to merely discuss the act--"Did you hear what happened to Lord Templar Tor's aide? She got raped!"--but if you're talking about wanting to rape a character while that character is in the room, I can see both the PC and the player getting a little weirded out. Personally, I would ask for consent the second the conversation started down that path, because you never know who's OOCly underage.

I recently played a crazy PC who raped other PCs and NPCs, regularly talked about it, threatened people with rape, and in general made people uncomfortable.

I was under the impression that I did a pretty good job with it, though. To my knowledge no player complaints were filed. All the uncomfortable-ness to avoid him was done IC--and I always faded.

Quote from: Is Friday on July 26, 2009, 12:21:35 AM
I recently played a crazy PC who raped other PCs and NPCs, regularly talked about it, threatened people with rape, and in general made people uncomfortable.

I was under the impression that I did a pretty good job with it, though. To my knowledge no player complaints were filed. All the uncomfortable-ness to avoid him was done IC--and I always faded.

Sounds like that takes some pretty serious emote skills... *tugs on collar*

If I might add my incredibly noobish opionion, I would say that Armageddon has a very great system in place with the consent rule. I would surmise that any scenario including roleplay with extreme violence or sexuality requires consent from participants\witnesses with no exception. As long as everyone involved consents, I can see no problem with getting as graphic and extreme as you like. I would like to think that even if a player consents, they still have the right to object or back out if the situation is getting too intense for them, but by this point their right to file a complaint of abuse of the consent rule should be voided.  

There are many ways to take advantage of someone without raping them. If you are in a position to take advantage of someone and you ask OOCly: "can I rape you?" and they reply "I'd rather you didn't get sexual" then feel free to do anything short of going under their clothes. The consent rule in my opinion, should not be used as an escape: ie. jim is lying on top of jane and brandishing a knife (or vice versa ;D) jim\jane's player asks OOC: "do you mind if I rape you?" "Yes I do"  " okay then... bye?" " 'later". The player on the bottom should still be in danger, however, it just can't get sexual and that should be fine for both players to accept. The consent rule should be the guide in all sexual encounters to avoid including those who do not want to experience these kind of things as part of their time on Armageddon.

That being said, if I was a Mormon from Utah playing a charater who happened to walk in on two other PC's "doing the devil's dance" I should just go the other way and treat it as if I just walked in on my parents IRL. Unfortunately, what other players want to do on Arm is their perrogative, so long as they're fine with it, and I don't see a way of shielding everyone from it in all cases other than banning it altogether. I think that the consent rule should carry the day in most situations, and preserve the enjoyment of all players. Harassment is a completely different issue altogether, and I'd like to think that all members of the playerbase can make this distinction.

Hope my comments have been helpful. Having never actually been in game at this point, I'm speaking purely from an ethical point of view, but I don't think there's too much IG experience I need to have an opinion on this issue.

Edit: spelling

As far as the questions posed by the OP:

1) I don't see the problem in this as long as they are also treating every male pc as a potential whore. And by whore, I mean someone who will take money for sex. And it really shoudn't be derogatory for most commonfolk, since it's simply a profession. In a world where killers and thieves for hire are commonplace, and Joe Nobody at the bar could leave the gates and kill you for your boots, getting paid to have sex is pretty tame for the most part and 'whore' is simply another job taken by males and females in Zalanthas. I suppose in a derogatory sense, it could be used in the semblance of 'dirty' whore, implying the male/female being called it has some sort of crotch rot or other 'dirty' disease but the 'whore' part shouldn't be used as an insult. Granted, whether someone takes it as such or as a compliment would depend on who is being called it. This is something that has gone on in the game for a long time, though. I don't see it changing any time soon. I wouldn't call it objectionable, but I also would imagine it being done by people who are not really that familiar with the game world, or not really interested in playing to the norms of the game world.

2) Openly speaking of sex: a non-issue. There is no taboo against sex in most of the common world, except the north, where a commoner and a noble having sex is taboo, and perhaps small tribal cultures. For the great majority of the world, sex is just sex. When most people have grown up in clustered communities, if not extended families where large groups of people are crammed in together, of both sexes, and in employment where there are no separate facilities for bathroom functions, changing and bunking, the mystique of nudity and sex is likely low. The propensity of someone to brag about who they have or have wanted to bag is then relegated to character quirk-- but whether someone does or does not talk about sex, actually talking about sex isn't considered shocking or dirty-- unless you're talking about weird or unusual sexual practices (willing cross-race sex would probably be viewed as unusual, banging a magicker (if you're not) would just be viewed as really freakin' bizarre if not downright dangerous depending on where in the world you are.)

3) Rape-- it is against the rules to roleplay, unless there is consent from both parties to pursue this avenue, whether it is played out or FTB'd. Male characters talking about rape do make me uncomfortable because I am led to believe they do not quite understand some of the core gender/sex tenets of the game. Rape as a form of brutality in the world of Zalanthas, I don't think is that common (admins can confirm or deny), despite the existance of half-elves. In the real world, it is easier for this to occur as a form of violence/power because males tend to be larger and physically stronger than females, physiologically speaking, and thus females can be more easily overpowered. In Zalanthas, this disparaty does not exist. When females are as likely to be able to kick your ass and/or cut off your genitals if you try to rape them, and are conditioned to go down fighting and attempt to inflict as much damage as possible-- and this is outside of whatever social backup they can bring to the table-- the ability to engage in such violence or even find it appealing likely drops drastically-- a male speaking of rape would likely be viewed in the same manner of someone who is highly mentally unstable. Edited to add: And likely, the males or females overhearing such talk would realistically be moved to remove such a threat to themselves.

And yes, this is from a female player's perspective.

I think the answer is more female pkillers. Here's a fun project... people who normally play PvP roles and enjoy pkilling and permadeath... how about all of us start making female characters and regularly murder male characters who bring their real-life prejudices too frequently into Zalanthas. I think that'd help the situation wonderfully. Amazons and Valkyries of the world: Unite!

Quote from: Krishnamurti on July 26, 2009, 01:20:36 AM
I think the answer is more female pkillers. Here's a fun project... people who normally play PvP roles and enjoy pkilling and permadeath... how about all of us start making female characters and regularly murder male characters who bring their real-life prejudices too frequently into Zalanthas. I think that'd help the situation wonderfully. Amazons and Valkyries of the world: Unite!

I have played positions in clans which have afforded me the luxury of teaching those male pc's who thought that a females were weak and enjoyed being treated in ways more befitting of helpless females. They did not make the same mistake twice (usually ending up dead) and I can only hope the lesson stuck through subsequent characters. :)

Whiran Luck:

I never broke any rules, because I never roleplayed an actual rape with anyone that I did not clear consent with. If you think my character threatening "I'm gonna rape you!" or talking casually about rape is too graphic then you're playing the wrong game, imo.

Quote from: Is Friday on July 26, 2009, 01:27:35 AM
Whiran Luck:

I never broke any rules, because I never roleplayed an actual rape with anyone that I did not clear consent with. If you think my character threatening "I'm gonna rape you!" or talking casually about rape is too graphic then you're playing the wrong game, imo.

You're right. With consent from both parties, I believe it's allowed to be roleplayed. I reread some of the files and older threads, and it's involuntary rape scenes (both parties must consent). I'm big enough to stand corrected. ;) However, I did not say I thought it was graphic. I did indicate that a character threatening such an act of violence would be tantamount to someone threatening to harm your character with other violent means and such threats should be handled in ICly appropriate manners. And given the game world, I don't think anyone talking casually about rape as a desirable act, or one with few consequences, would be considered normal.

If your PC is going to treat every female character like a prostitute, they should generally also treat every male character as a prostitute. In Allanak and Tuluk, at least, there are as many male whores as female whores.

If your PC is going to be a real horndog all the time, well, that's totally fine.

I have found that everyone's very fine with fading. Obviously there's people out there who love playing out the act and I'm not one of them. I really enjoy the maturity of players in Armageddon who will happily oblige to a fade.

In re: prostitution, in general, as a theme, no, I don't really find myself made uncomfortable by it in the slightest; it seems pretty reasonable to assume that someone (a male or a female) might be willing to exchange something as meaningless and of immensely little inherent worth (i.e., an hour or two of time) for something like a bunch of 'sid or some food and water or whoever knows what else.  It doesn't really cost anything to have sex with someone, so it's like getting something for nothing, if the character is comfortable enough to feel safe going up in private with someone.

Of course, uh, I'm a whore.  So maybe this is a slightly biased response.


Open discussion about rape?  This is a bit iffier.  It's a pretty strong violation of someone's person; I would say, "hey, would it be okay to talk about mugging someone/killing someone with the people I am now, in the company I am now?", and if the answer is "no, not really," then it seems like rape might be a poor conversational topic, too.  On the other hand, I don't view Zalanthan rape as a misogynistic/misandristic crime, unless that's the character's specific psychological makeup -- seems more to me like it'd be just a crime of degradation/assertation of power, and lacking the emphasis of being in a society where the body and sexual contact are somehow bizarrely sacred, it *might not*, in *Zalanthas*, be *as big of* a deal.  I put a lot of emphasis on those words for a reason.

Of course, uh, I guess I've also been raped a few times.  So maybe this is biased, too.


But, y'know, it's a roleplaying game, and sometimes people roleplay some very unfriendly types.  Wouldn't think that text is much to get your panties in a twist about, personally.

Quote from: Krishnamurti on July 26, 2009, 01:20:36 AM
I think the answer is more female pkillers. Here's a fun project... people who normally play PvP roles and enjoy pkilling and permadeath... how about all of us start making female characters and regularly murder male characters who bring their real-life prejudices too frequently into Zalanthas. I think that'd help the situation wonderfully. Amazons and Valkyries of the world: Unite!

I'm one of those adrenalin lovers who has a (perhaps at times guilty) love of stabbing another character in the face.

But as for rolling up a female PKing character? Hell no, never again... I once rolled up an experimental female character, and soon got bored of it after she was hit on and treated overly nicely too many times. I even made her be a rugged, take-no-shit-from-nobody type of gal in anticipation of the flirting, but that didn't help things much... In fact, whenever she acted aggro, it made men adore her even more.

Man, in retrospect I should have made her hideous and horribly scarred... instead I made her rather plain (in my mind's eye) but now that I think about it people probably thought of her as very attractive anyway.

Yeah, I think if you want to make a female PC who isn't going to be hit on, she has to be either old and wrinkled, really fat, or terribly deformed.

The "plain" look doesn't seem to get the message across clearly enough.

I find my female PCs get hit on no matter what they look like.  Sometimes it feels like people lose interest in them quickly when they find out that I'd rather FTB than roleplay out sex.   :-\

Quote from: musashi on July 26, 2009, 05:21:31 AM
The "plain" look doesn't seem to get the message across clearly enough.

In a world where missing fingers, deformed limbs, mutations,  horrendous scars and horrid body odor are the norm.. plain is kind of hot, ain't it?

There's only been one incident that I've ever seen that I thought sexual conversation had gone too far and sort of crossed into the realm of an oocish sexual harassment. IMO, It's a mature roleplaying game and if text REALLY has the ability to upset you to that extent, well, that's what the ooc command for. Most of it could be hashed out ic though, the prostitution passes etc.

It strikes me that according to the docs (my understanding) is that Allanak is very conservative and open sexual talk should be avoided at least in public.  But then, naki's don't dress or wear weapons like the docs either (for the most part).

I always assumed that given the poverty level of the average Nakki, the docs about clothing and weapon choice were aimed at the noble houses more than the average amos.

They probably wear whatever they can find/make/steal.

Quote from: Is Friday on July 26, 2009, 12:21:35 AM
I recently played a crazy PC who raped other PCs and NPCs, regularly talked about it, threatened people with rape, and in general made people uncomfortable.

I was under the impression that I did a pretty good job with it, though. To my knowledge no player complaints were filed. All the uncomfortable-ness to avoid him was done IC--and I always faded.

FYI - my wife (3 days now, whoo!) reported someone at work who was inappropriate - that person got fired (not the plan of my wife) but it turns out he had upset a whole bunch of other people, none who reported it until someone finally did.  So - to say no complaints were filed is not saying much.  Lots of people just try to pretend it didn't happen and the offender (not saying you did offend anyone - only that you likely will never know) will like go on offending if someone doesn't step up about it.  

Bottom line - you never know if the pc you are playing with is played by a woman who was raped.  And having known, very well, many women who have been, it's far more common than you think.  Rape has no place in the game, IMO.

(Many women:  my mother, another relation, two girl friends and another woman.)

.02

Well, don't the rules for consent cover that pretty well? They spell it out clearly that before even bringing rape into the picture as a possible plot-line, you have to have ooc consent from the other player involved. No consent ... then your PC can't rape that other PC IG, FTB or not.

So people that don't want rape to have any place in their character's story, don't have to. It isn't like torture, where it will happen whether you want it to happen to your PC or not, you just get to pick if it happens on or off camera.

I don't really have a problem with it IG.

Sure, some of my characters (a select few) have, but I don't.

IC is IC. OOC is OOC.

It's not an insult, it's Zalanthas. People get propositioned. They also get backstabbed and stolen from and killed and poisoned. A lot. But, you know what? It's not like RL where those things would bother me.

Quote from: musashi on July 26, 2009, 08:06:06 AM
Well, don't the rules for consent cover that pretty well? They spell it out clearly that before even bringing rape into the picture as a possible plot-line, you have to have ooc consent from the other player involved. No consent ... then your PC can't rape that other PC IG, FTB or not.

So people that don't want rape to have any place in their character's story, don't have to. It isn't like torture, where it will happen whether you want it to happen to your PC or not, you just get to pick if it happens on or off camera.

I wonder if the player who posted that one of his characters regularly talked of rape checked with everyone within hearing distance if it was ok to bring rape in as a plot line?

I know that if one of the women I know in RL who has been raped had heard the conversation she would have a very different impression of the game. 

This wonderful game, Armageddon, is not enhanced by this kind of roleplay.  Just as most fiction novels are not enhanced by graphic depictions of sex of any time.  The best romances, the best fantasy make suggestions of it and never approach it directly.  We might be well served to take the work of writers better than ourselves into consideration.

I don't mean to come off as defending "rape" as an acceptable hobby or thing to bring up over coffee, but the helpfiles are very clear (at least to me) on that. They say: Specifically in the case of roleplaying through a rape or sexual torture, the instigator takes on added responsibility.

Roleplaying through ... not talking about. So I don't believe said player would /have/ to ask for OOC consent before simply talking about it, only when actually trying to RP through comitting the act.

Is it tasteful ... well, no. But I don't think the player was in the wrong at all based on what he said; if we're usng the game's consent rules as a guide.

I don't have a problem with this. At all. I've played all manner of roles, since coming back to the game. The one and only time anyone ever made me uncomfortable was because someone followed me into a latrine to proposition me. That was just....odd.

I expect people of Allanak at least to be direct and up front about sex. I don't recall being very often treated as a whore, though one or two people did offer. But I've played a lot of tough girls and once word gets out she isn't going to take a few sid to go somewhere and do things, they stop asking.

I've played a guy recently. He's had a few overtures, though they've been subtle. And I think they're for other reasons than his being male. So far he's only gone to vNPCs who he knows he can trust. I should think people would remember that trust is a major issue when it comes to sex. You're icly putting yourself in a vulnerable place, male or female. I don't think this is remembered enough.

I agree with X-D on the "who gives a shit?" front.

Most players, as we've shown thus far here, are very lax about what happens. Some FTB, some want to cyber. Some could give a shit if you rape their PCs. If you're gonna emote being sexual, ask for consent, or ask for a fade. If you're uncomfortable with a discussion being had, ask the players to tone it down, OR LEAVE! (This is my opinion of the smoking bans IRL too. Even though I've been smoking since I was 14 and just quit 8 months ago, I still hang around with smokers. IF you're in my car and it's bothering me, I tell to roll down the window or quit. If we're standing around and 6 people are smoking, versus me not, I can walk away if it begins to bug me.)

If you're in a bar with 10 PCs, and 2 of them are talking rape, I think you need to raise a consensus "I'm sorry, this bothers me. Does this bother anyone else?" If it does, ask those two to get a table or something. If you're alone on this one, then you need to be a big boy/girl and go look for dead newbs for a while until they change subject or leave.

As far as most players being pretty lax, I once witnessed a whore give a Bynner a BJ in the middle of a crowded bar with like 6 PCs in it. She did it right. She OOC'd "I need consent here. Does anyone mind? I'll keep it vague." No one minded, every PC gave consent to witness, and she did an exceptional job of keeping it PG-13, emoting more to the effect of where she was kneeling, and how her head was moving, rather than what her tongue and hands were doing, etc.  Kudos.

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on July 26, 2009, 12:14:06 PM
I agree with X-D on the "who gives a shit?" front.

Me. It actually started to bother me personally a few months ago to see the handful of female characters in the Byn more or less continually being the recepients of sexually suggestive comments, invitations, remarks about behaviour and so on. It was totally one-sided; the female characters weren't giving it back to the male characters.

I've been seeing it in the Gaj more and more, too. This is something new to Arm. Public blowjobs, naked invitations to sex in front of a crowd and so on.

My concern is that I'd hate to see female players driven out of clans (and maybe out of the game) by it. Thus the poll. I'm glad that most seem okay with it, although you could argue its because the less thick-skinned ones have already left.

There's a HUGE difference between this sentiment:

QuoteI expect people of Allanak at least to be direct and up front about sex.

and this sentiment:

QuoteThere seems to be a growing trend (at least in the south) to treat every female character as a potential whore.

I object to the obsession with sex as some kind of normal thing that people should expect to see among the general populace. The existence of sex doesn't bother me at all. The fact that Zalanthans include sex among their interests doesn't bother me at all. The trend for people to -focus- on sexual activity is what I feel Eyeball is talking about, and what I agree is something that needs to be addressed. That it -seems- to be a trend, this focus on sex, the focus on objectifying females...the focus on females behaving as sexual objects rather than multi-dimensional people whose interests -include- sex, rather than -exclude- anything other than sex.

I don't think anyone gives a damn that characters in Zalanthas have sex and will talk about it or proposition each other with it. I think some people DO give a damn that the "obsession with sex" seems to be a trend. Not that having sex or talking about it is a trend, but that the obsession is a trend.

Quote from: Tallulah on July 26, 2009, 06:06:40 AM
I find my female PCs get hit on no matter what they look like.  Sometimes it feels like people lose interest in them quickly when they find out that I'd rather FTB than roleplay out sex.   :-\

I find my male PCs get hit on no matter what they look like.

Edited, as it didn't come across as I thought it might.

btw - roleplaying about sex, rape and torture includes talking about it because you are roleplaying everytime you have your character do anything - so if you are going to have roleplay that includes sex, rape and torture, you had better ask for permission from everyone who can hear you (within reason, obviously if you can't see a hidden person, you can't ask their consent.).

Well now my post is irrelevant and is in response to a post that no longer exists, so..never mind :)

Quote from: Lizzie on July 26, 2009, 02:07:13 PM
I object to the obsession with sex as some kind of normal thing that people should expect to see among the general populace. The existence of sex doesn't bother me at all. The fact that Zalanthans include sex among their interests doesn't bother me at all. The trend for people to -focus- on sexual activity is what I feel Eyeball is talking about, and what I agree is something that needs to be addressed. That it -seems- to be a trend, this focus on sex, the focus on objectifying females...the focus on females behaving as sexual objects rather than multi-dimensional people whose interests -include- sex, rather than -exclude- anything other than sex.

I gotta agree with Lizzie. Even things like "dame, broad, and bitch" seem a bit weird for Zalanthas.

I call women - women and I do my absolute best to treat every female the exact same I would treat any male. Hell, I haven't even had a sexually active character in years. I don't play Arm for that.

Probably the most offsetting situation was a few months back when I was telling an underling (kinda think it was an animated NPC) to do some cooking work. He said no, that's women's work.  >:( I played it off as them having something wrong with their head. Suffice to say, that character died pretty quickly after.

Bottom line? Watch what you say/do because as we all know on the internet, just one word can have a significantly different meaning than your intention.

How often do males think about sex in real life?  What happens in essential lawless areas in times of upheaval and the loss of central authority?  Ever read stories about the child war soldier's in Africa?  Maybe its just me, but I see rape especially happening much less often than I would expect to see it, given RL as a baseline.  See a girl out alone in the wastes and think you can overpower her?  Yeah.  Much, much less than I would expect to see it.

But that is okay.  Still, sex and rape can be used to give the world that really gritty feel.  I'll never forget a character I was with in the Gaj, talking about cutting open someone's throat and doing the act.  That character was awesome, the way the act was described was awesome, and it really brought home that grit.

Quote from: Lizzie on July 26, 2009, 02:24:18 PM
Edited to protect the innocent..alright, so not innocent, but it helps keep Lizzie from backstabbing my character in their sleep  ;)

Lizzie, my post wasn't meant as anything other than an evidently poorly worded attempt at humor.  Obviously it failed.  I used that snippet of your post more as of a way to highlight that this feels like another thread worrying over a trend that a player has noticed IG, similar to many such I've seen that have turned into a "hate thread" (quote on quote), and to set up the rest of my post.  I apologize and will edit my post, since it seems to have offended where it was meant to amuse.

Quote from: Majikal on July 26, 2009, 07:32:14 AM
There's only been one incident that I've ever seen that I thought sexual conversation had gone too far and sort of crossed into the realm of an oocish sexual harassment.

Sorry about that again, Maj.  But y'know, you didn't have to call me all those names and cry that much.

Quote from: DustMight on July 26, 2009, 07:57:18 AM

Quote from: Is Friday on July 26, 2009, 12:21:35 AM
I recently played a crazy PC who raped other PCs and NPCs, regularly talked about it, threatened people with rape, and in general made people uncomfortable.

I was under the impression that I did a pretty good job with it, though. To my knowledge no player complaints were filed. All the uncomfortable-ness to avoid him was done IC--and I always faded.

Bottom line - you never know if the pc you are playing with is played by a woman who was raped.  And having known, very well, many women who have been, it's far more common than you think.  Rape has no place in the game, IMO.

But by the same reasoning, we could be playing with somebody who has gone through a murder IRL, too.  The help files say "any emote specifically indicative of the act of rape" requires consent.  I'm honestly not sure if this covers threats/general vileness of a character or not.  Staff?

Quote from: DustMight on July 26, 2009, 08:22:55 AM
This wonderful game, Armageddon, is not enhanced by this kind of roleplay.  Just as most fiction novels are not enhanced by graphic depictions of sex of any time.  The best romances, the best fantasy make suggestions of it and never approach it directly.  We might be well served to take the work of writers better than ourselves into consideration.

I disagree completely. You just obviously have not been in the presence of a character that roleplays these things well.

Yeah actually I -have- been in scenes with characters, whose players managed to turn what -could've- been one of those really cheap crappy plastic blow-up-doll experiences, into very brief, exquisitely detailed, ELEGANTLY graphic, moments of hotness that made me want to order a spinach/garlic/pepperoni calzone and get jiggy in the basement with my cat.

So again - it's not that there's a problem with sex. It's when that's all you see. It get boring. And overdone. And unnecessary, and ultimately, OOCly distasteful.

Quote from: Lizzie on July 26, 2009, 04:27:43 PM
moments of hotness that made me want to order a spinach/garlic/pepperoni calzone and get jiggy in the basement with my cat.

This GDB is bad for my brain.

With the player gender ratio, combined with the fact that there =are= so many male characters that are sexually forward, if your PC is even mildly attractive, there is rarely a chase that needs to go down. I don't think that there's anything, in particular, about sexuality IG that is skewed, I think it's a combination of the number of male vs. female pc's, as well as the number of male vs. female players, as well as the little parts of the psyche that often wind up being drug over from RL. Sure it's not ideal, but then at the same time, it would be just as bad depending on a lot of factors. And, personally, I've had a -good- share of my pc's chase after male pc's. The difference is, mine tend to use the Way to do it. :)

Quote from: Lizzie on July 26, 2009, 04:27:43 PM
So again - it's not that there's a problem with sex. It's when that's all you see. It get boring. And overdone. And unnecessary, and ultimately, OOCly distasteful.

That right there sums up my thoughts on sex in general in game.

As for rape, meh. As I said before, just follow the consent rules.

Quote from: Is Friday on July 26, 2009, 04:10:14 PM

Quote from: DustMight on July 26, 2009, 08:22:55 AM
This wonderful game, Armageddon, is not enhanced by this kind of roleplay.  Just as most fiction novels are not enhanced by graphic depictions of sex of any time.  The best romances, the best fantasy make suggestions of it and never approach it directly.  We might be well served to take the work of writers better than ourselves into consideration.

I disagree completely. You just obviously have not been in the presence of a character that roleplays these things well.

I have, actually.  And my statement still stands as truth - if you disbelieve you haven't read much, written much or talked to many professional writers or teachers of fiction. 

This is tasteless, but I don't care!

Quotemade me want to order a spinach/garlic/pepperoni calzone and get jiggy in the basement with my cat.

Hey sweet thing, why don't you save yourself the $3.99 and an ounce of cat-nip and fire me a PM. ;)

Female PCs always treat my male characters as whores and it hurts my feelings.

Quote from: Fnord on July 26, 2009, 05:56:25 PM
Female PCs always treat my male characters as whores and it hurts my feelings.

I'm not treating them like whores... I just like to FTB the pillowtalk/snuggling! :)

It depends on where you want to draw the line. I think mild sexual advances such as groping etc, are fair game. However being exceptionally explicit about a sexual assualt might not be. In both cases, asking for consent is not going to hurt you. I personally think it would be poor form not to in the latter, but I doubt there would be too much trouble if you did it.

But as far as consent goes... DO NOT begin a scene without being very specific about what you are asking consent for.

If I give consent, expecting some kind of vague torture scene but the instigator then turns that into graphic sexual torture; I'm gonna be pissed right off.  Even if unintentional, pulling off this kind of switcheroo will get you a player complaint from me.

- I did not read the whole thread, but I did read the original post.
- I voted no.
- I recently had a PC offer my character, who was looking for work, money for sex. It didn't seem to be in a joking manner, nor was the PC being overtly sexual about it. They were rather businesslike. I thought it was awesome, even if my character didn't think so. Kudos to whoever player that was. Respectful offers and encounters like this don't bother me.
- I start to become uncomfortable when PCs become presumptuous and grabby. I also don't think it fits well within the world, especially in public.  This is Zalanthas - if your PC starts groping mine without asking I'm gonna either slit your throat or get someone else to do it for me. Direct talk, however doesn't bother me... usually you can just tell them to fuck off and they'll get the hint and go leer at someone else.

Quote from: DustMight on July 26, 2009, 05:51:13 PM

Quote from: Is Friday on July 26, 2009, 04:10:14 PM

Quote from: DustMight on July 26, 2009, 08:22:55 AM
This wonderful game, Armageddon, is not enhanced by this kind of roleplay.  Just as most fiction novels are not enhanced by graphic depictions of sex of any time.  The best romances, the best fantasy make suggestions of it and never approach it directly.  We might be well served to take the work of writers better than ourselves into consideration.

I disagree completely. You just obviously have not been in the presence of a character that roleplays these things well.

I have, actually.  And my statement still stands as truth - if you disbelieve you haven't read much, written much or talked to many professional writers or teachers of fiction.  

I don't think I can take someone seriously when they try to state their opinion as undeniable fact, first off. Secondly, you don't know what I've written, have read, or studied.

Thirdly, I'm pretty sure a lot of people have encountered one or many of my raunchy characters--and think they're awesome.

edit: If you don't want your sensibilities pressed, don't go and watch a Tarantino film. This game is the Tarantino film of MUDs--don't try and ruin its honesty with your watered down view of "how things should be".

Quote from: Is Friday on July 26, 2009, 08:30:34 PM

Quote from: DustMight on July 26, 2009, 05:51:13 PM

Quote from: Is Friday on July 26, 2009, 04:10:14 PM

Quote from: DustMight on July 26, 2009, 08:22:55 AM
This wonderful game, Armageddon, is not enhanced by this kind of roleplay.  Just as most fiction novels are not enhanced by graphic depictions of sex of any time.  The best romances, the best fantasy make suggestions of it and never approach it directly.  We might be well served to take the work of writers better than ourselves into consideration.

I disagree completely. You just obviously have not been in the presence of a character that roleplays these things well.

I have, actually.  And my statement still stands as truth - if you disbelieve you haven't read much, written much or talked to many professional writers or teachers of fiction.  

I don't think I can take someone seriously when they try to state their opinion as undeniable fact, first off. Secondly, you don't know what I've written, have read, or studied.

Thirdly, I'm pretty sure a lot of people have encountered one or many of my raunchy characters--and think they're awesome.

edit: If you don't want your sensibilities pressed, don't go and watch a Tarantino film. This game is the Tarantino film of MUDs--don't try and ruin its honesty with your watered down view of "how things should be".

Dude, you obviously missed my point entirely.  Let me try again.

1. The people you will offend will often not report this.  This is the case in RL.
2. The best fiction doesn't, by and large, include graphic sex or torture.  Check any bookshelf.

You thus run the risk of hurting real-life people without doing anything productive for the game.  But, then, if you are just concerned for your own good time, I guess other people aren't a big issue for you.

I guess somewhere in my posts I said that I didn't follow consent rules!

Oh look, potential flame-war brewing. ::) Very cool . . .

Calm peoples, go lurk a few hours, take a few deep breaths.

As for me, I'm just gonna sit back. Watch the battlez ensuez . . .

This is a very complex, very sensitive matter here; I'm not touchin' it. :P

Not to add fuel to the fire but this is just my two 'sids. If you don't want to, then don't read it.

First, I don't think of the whole matter of MUD sex necessarily "distasteful". Maybe because I'm more laid back about the whole thing IRL, maybe because I don't view it as something which should be taboo, maybe because I don't think people should be persecuted for enjoying a certain part of MUDing, I don't know. Personally, I don't care for MUD sex myself though I couldn't give a stuff if people want it... I agree that Zalanthians generally should be quite open and okay with the whole matter, too, and so don't think OOC bias should taint that.

My only concern is, as previously mentioned, the "objectification" of women. Simply because I believe gender equality adds a lot to the game.

As for rape, and discussing it ICly? Again, fortunately I've never been raped IRL and am okay with it in game. What I've noticed in this thread, though, is people are so focused on what the "rules" say, and what appears to be a grey area in the rules... which confuses me. Screw the grey area, I'm more concerned about courtesy to my fellow players. While the subject of rape doesn't bother me more than the average person, personally (ie. I won't go batshit crazy on your arse if you do decide to discuss rape in-game), I'm going to err on the side of caution in-game in certain situations. Why? Because I know how sensitive a subject it is. Yeah, at times that might be bordering on OOCishness when my character goes out of the way to do something he might realistically do, but you know what? This is a game, a game is meant to be fun and distressing fellow players is not fun. And anyway, how is a character suddenly getting up and leaving the scene whenever rape is discussed (which, by the way, isn't always realistically possible) any less OOC than me avoiding discussing rape ICly? Sometimes, you got to acknowledge that this is a game, and sacrifice a bit of realism and immersion for the sake of the game.

I'm more okay with torture in-game than I am with rape. Hypocritical? Maybe. But it's not because I particularly think either is less or more horrific than the other. It's just because torture is obviously less sensitive a topic.

And as for the argument of "grittiness"? If my character brutally tortures someone instead of brutally raping them, I don't see how it's any less gritty.

There's probably a lot of good erotic fiction out there.  You just don't see it on display at Barnes & Noble because, well, that sort of thing causes a lot of darn consternation.  The idea that sex isn't a good topic for FANTASY is quite laughable, really.

On a side note...

Quote from: Synthesis on July 27, 2009, 01:12:37 AM
There's probably a lot of good erotic fiction out there.  You just don't see it on display at Barnes & Noble because, well, that sort of thing causes a lot of darn consternation.

I agree. To me, the idea that a graphic sex scene discriminates between good literature and a crap literature is ridiculous. I can't help but wonder if this mentality is based on the RL taboo surrounding sex...

I think the fact is the issue is obviously a very sensative one for DustMight so ... lets let it go? Avoid the flames?

I'm happy that this subject has been brought up but the poll's question is sexist.

Quote from: Northlander on July 27, 2009, 03:26:39 AM
I'm happy that this subject has been brought up but the poll's question is sexist.

QFT.

And some have mentioned that this is a GAME. Games are fun. Rape is not fun. At all.

Quote from: DustMight on July 26, 2009, 08:22:55 AM
Just as most fiction novels are not enhanced by graphic depictions of sex of any time.  The best romances, the best fantasy make suggestions of it and never approach it directly.  We might be well served to take the work of writers better than ourselves into consideration.

This is a bit of a tangent, but I'd just like to point out that there's plenty of classical literature featuring erotic scenes and you're being silly to pretend there isn't. Joyce's Ulysses comes to mind, as does Chaucer's Canterbury Tales. Gabriel Garcia Marquez wrote a scene about masturbating with asparagus. Gravity's Rainbow has an orgy. Everyone from Shakespeare to Plato to Dante has depicted sex in their writing, and they may not always go straight for pork-sword-penetrating-ham-wallet graphic detail, but the sex is certainly there.

/derail

Quote from: Fathi on July 27, 2009, 04:53:18 AM

This is a bit of a tangent, but I'd just like to point out that there's plenty of classical literature featuring erotic scenes and you're being silly to pretend there isn't. Joyce's Ulysses comes to mind, as does Chaucer's Canterbury Tales. Gabriel Garcia Marquez wrote a scene about masturbating with asparagus. Gravity's Rainbow has an orgy. Everyone from Shakespeare to Plato to Dante has depicted sex in their writing, and they may not always go straight for pork-sword-penetrating-ham-wallet graphic detail, but the sex is certainly there.

/derail

But you're entering a different 'agreement' with an author of a book or the cast of a play. As a reader or an audience, you are _spectators_ and you have no stake in the story, no role, no creative power, aside from the passive ways in which we consume such entertainments.

In a multiplayer game, it is more involved, there is more stake for the players involved, in many cases more attachment to the characters being played. And behind each character is a different person with a different life story, culture, morals, values, etc.

It's not so much about 'depicting sex' because we aren't depicting sex, in this case. We are, in fact, -engaged- in it.

Quote from: Krishnamurti on July 27, 2009, 05:05:46 AM

Quote from: Fathi on July 27, 2009, 04:53:18 AM

This is a bit of a tangent, but I'd just like to point out that there's plenty of classical literature featuring erotic scenes and you're being silly to pretend there isn't. Joyce's Ulysses comes to mind, as does Chaucer's Canterbury Tales. Gabriel Garcia Marquez wrote a scene about masturbating with asparagus. Gravity's Rainbow has an orgy. Everyone from Shakespeare to Plato to Dante has depicted sex in their writing, and they may not always go straight for pork-sword-penetrating-ham-wallet graphic detail, but the sex is certainly there.

/derail

But you're entering a different 'agreement' with an author of a book or the cast of a play. As a reader or an audience, you are _spectators_ and you have no stake in the story, no role, no creative power, aside from the passive ways in which we consume such entertainments.

In a multiplayer game, it is more involved, there is more stake for the players involved, in many cases more attachment to the characters being played. And behind each character is a different person with a different life story, culture, morals, values, etc.

It's not so much about 'depicting sex' because we aren't depicting sex, in this case. We are, in fact, -engaged- in it.

How about paying attention to the discussion before you jump into it with your wild-ass non sequitur?

The only thing we were discussing in that tangent was the assertion that graphic sex makes for poor storytelling.

You're not telling a story. We are. I've been paying attention to this thread from the get go, so if you wanna flame me: STFU thnx k bi


edit: I looked over the 'tangent' again, and I still think it's irrelevant. Armageddon is NOT classic literature, far from it, and this thread as far as I can tell is more about unwanted advances. So how the hell do you think you can get away with saying my comments are wild-ass non sequitur? Hypocrite.

I'll be too direct and blunt..

Like any other geek activity, ARM must have some portion of his playerbase as sex-starved teens. So seeing characters around all interested only in sexual activities seems... not unlikely. Acceptable? Maybe... sometimes...

If it bothers you really, just report. Even if the other player's play doesn't require any form of punishment I'm sure the staff may have a kind chatter ranging from "Dude.. The owner of the character "the buxom, sex-starved-looking f-me" isn't interested in any IC sexual acts. Even though you're not breaking any rules, maybe you can reconsider forcing that kind of play into her?" to "Dude.. stop trying to f**k anything that moves. ROFL.."

My two condoms.

Quote from: Krishnamurti on July 27, 2009, 05:22:48 AM
You're not telling a story. We are. I've been paying attention to this thread from the get go, so if you wanna flame me: STFU thnx k bi


edit: I looked over the 'tangent' again, and I still think it's irrelevant. Armageddon is NOT classic literature, far from it, and this thread as far as I can tell is more about unwanted advances. So how the hell do you think you can get away with saying my comments are wild-ass non sequitur? Hypocrite.

Fathi was just responding to a comment made by DustMight which said in effect that depictions of sex didn't show up in good creative writing in a graphic fashion, but were rather implied. Hence ... they shouldn't show up in Arm, but should rather be implied here as well (at least this is how I took his comment, I'm guessing some others took it like that also).

She said in her post that her reply to that was a derail, hence ... not really relevant to the thread's discussion at large. She was just offering DustMight some examples of classic lit that did include graphic depictions of sex.

I think everyone agrees that Arm is not classic literature, it's a game. And we all agree that as a game we're playing together we have an obligation to try not to offend one another too terribly much.

This is why the game has consent rules regarding things that might be offensive like torture and sex.

By looking at the poll results, it would seem that the majority of people are not offended by sex or sexual propositions being brought up IG. Followed by the next group who are "somewhat" put off by it (though the subsequent posts seem to suggest that they're mostly put off by it when it seems to be all a character, and hence, a player ... is interested in). Only 4 people as of this post stated that they were offended by it. 4 out of the 38 who voted.

I take that to mean that the majority of folks are in fact, not offended by talk of sex or sexual advances.

The "is rape ok" discussion is a bit of a derail of its own, and one that I think would have been better left alone, but if it's that big of a deal to some people, I'd recommend asking the staff for more clarify on their consent policy as it pertains to rape.

Now lets please try not to degenerate into flames and trolling.

By the way I like your avatar.

I just kind of skimmed through this thread, briefly looking over it. Found some stuff I wanted to argue with/agree with, but I'm gonna let that go save one comment, later in my post.

The only actual question that was asked regarding this poll was Does this make female players uncomfortable?

I honestly have no freakin' clue, I'm a guy. I'm kind of upset -I- wasn't asked, though, I'll let it go. Considering my current PC may very well be one of these people, I feel like I should respond to all of this.

Not all female chars, are played by females, and vice-versa, so the gender of the player shouldn't be taken into account, and, realistically, since for some reason arm seems to be a lot less sexist than the GDB, and especially real-life, the gender of the Char shouldn't be taken into account either.

Secondly, the RULE is you have to get -specific- consent when roleplaying or pursuing (starting/considering) rape scenes, and/or graphic violence. I've seen one of those ignored, ever, in all my time on arm, but I wasn't offended, and the scene was done very well.

Thirdly, merely talking about rape really shouldn't require any OOC consent, though the person who ignores some person using OOC to express offense should be kicked in the shins repeatedly. I encourage everyone to freely use the OOC command to speak up and say, hey, please, tone it down a bit.

Fourthly? Anyhow, I've played whores of both sexes, and yes, I said whores. I've also played serial killers, rapists, and who knows how many psychopaths, children with mental handicaps, blind people, and any number of other afflictions. In all my time playing, I've never once recieved a player complaint because it's rather simple not to. Step one, OOC Consent to (insert act here) Step two, respect the other players decision, nuff said. Anyone who can't do that is a jackass, and should be banned, anyone who takes offense, but doesn't speak up, I'm kind of peeved at, because then you run the risk of the person who -Deserves- to get banned not actually getting banned, and another person is gonna have to be offended before the crap stops.

Number five, please read http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?consent (http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?consent). Sometimes it's amazing what you can forget in however many years you've been playing.


And lastly

Quote from: DustMight on July 26, 2009, 08:44:04 PM
1. The people you will offend will often not report this.  This is the case in RL.
2. The best fiction doesn't, by and large, include graphic sex or torture.  Check any bookshelf.

I disagree with this. I, and many I know, WILL REPORT something they are offended by IG.
And btw, the Marquis De Sade is among the greatest writers -I've- come across, check your bookshelves twice, please. I got his greatest work from Barnes and Nobles, $29.95.

Quote from: Kevo on July 27, 2009, 07:24:07 AM
I just kind of skimmed through this thread, briefly looking over it. Found some stuff I wanted to argue with/agree with, but I'm gonna let that go save one comment, later in my post.

The only actual question that was asked regarding this poll was Does this make female players uncomfortable?

I honestly have no freakin' clue, I'm a guy. I'm kind of upset -I- wasn't asked, though, I'll let it go. Considering my current PC may very well be one of these people, I feel like I should respond to all of this.

Not all female chars, are played by females, and vice-versa, so the gender of the player shouldn't be taken into account, and, realistically, since for some reason arm seems to be a lot less sexist than the GDB, and especially real-life, the gender of the Char shouldn't be taken into account either.

Secondly, the RULE is you have to get -specific- consent when roleplaying or pursuing (starting/considering) rape scenes, and/or graphic violence. I've seen one of those ignored, ever, in all my time on arm, but I wasn't offended, and the scene was done very well.

Thirdly, merely talking about rape really shouldn't require any OOC consent, though the person who ignores some person using OOC to express offense should be kicked in the shins repeatedly. I encourage everyone to freely use the OOC command to speak up and say, hey, please, tone it down a bit.

Fourthly? Anyhow, I've played whores of both sexes, and yes, I said whores. I've also played serial killers, rapists, and who knows how many psychopaths, children with mental handicaps, blind people, and any number of other afflictions. In all my time playing, I've never once recieved a player complaint because it's rather simple not to. Step one, OOC Consent to (insert act here) Step two, respect the other players decision, nuff said. Anyone who can't do that is a jackass, and should be banned, anyone who takes offense, but doesn't speak up, I'm kind of peeved at, because then you run the risk of the person who -Deserves- to get banned not actually getting banned, and another person is gonna have to be offended before the crap stops.

Number five, please read http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?consent (http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?consent). Sometimes it's amazing what you can forget in however many years you've been playing.


And lastly

Quote from: DustMight on July 26, 2009, 08:44:04 PM
1. The people you will offend will often not report this.  This is the case in RL.
2. The best fiction doesn't, by and large, include graphic sex or torture.  Check any bookshelf.

I disagree with this. I, and many I know, WILL REPORT something they are offended by IG.
And btw, the Marquis De Sade is among the greatest writers -I've- come across, check your bookshelves twice, please. I got his greatest work from Barnes and Nobles, $29.95.

I hate to continue the derail, but I keep getting misunderstood and this will be the last post I make on the subject so the thread can get on with its bad self.

1. I never said there are NO references to rape or sex in good literature.  I said "by and large." I'm sure we can all think of a few examples but BY AND LARGE most does not contain GRAPHIC.  Offering a deviation from the norm does not change the fact of my statement.  By best I didn't even me classic.  I meant - the stuff that is selling well and people are enjoying.  I have read De Sade and such - but then it is not the sex etc that made his work great - but his commentary on morality and deity.    By and large, GRAPHIC sex and torture do not make for good fiction.  Those examples everyone is citing are great not BECAUSE of the sex/torture but of the quality of the REST of the writing or, I'll grant, the writing as a whole.

2. IRL rape and offense are rarely reported - why do you think RL people will speak up when offended.  The fact is that outside of the mud that often don't. I submit their behaviors will not change very much on the mud.  Why do you think they would?  I cited a RL case in which abuse/sexual offense was not reported by those offended.  I know three our four women who did not report their rapes in RL and I suspect if they didn't report it women (and men) like that aren't going to speak up when they are offended by some titillated 15 year old RPing explicit sex with his prick in his hand.

3. I think it's telling that Immortals will often leave mud-sexing folks alone - not bothering to visit private rooms.  At least this was the case back when I knew about such things.  If it was such great roleplay - why would they do this?

PS:
Yes - I've instigated torture RP as a templar, I've had a PG sexual affair with another player (or two or three) that developed the character and playing male and female characters have been blunt about such things.  We're talking explicit here and I personally am talking about rape RP (RP including conversation as conversation is a large part of roleplay).

End of post/derail.  I'll happily read comments on my post.

On the whole fiction thing..it's such a horrible example DustMight, you need to either drop that, or replace it. What you think is "good" fiction isn't necessarily what others think is "good" fiction. People who LOVE romance stories will attest to you that you are absolutely unequivocally wrong. Sex DOES make for good fiction...and in fact is a necessary part of it. If it lacks sex, then it is BAD fiction. That's for people who read romance novels. Those can be purchased in any bookstore -and- in most supermarkets.

Erotica -is- available at Barnes and Noble. Vampire books with graphic sex-based torture scenes are available in the Sci-Fi section of Barnes and Noble, and A.N. Roquelare's (One of Anne Rice's pen names) Beauty and the Beast series, which is a 3-part novel of torture, sexual torture, and graphic hetero, homo, and multi-sexual scenes and slavery, is available..at Barnes and Noble. It is considered by Erotica readers as a "primer" to the genre of S&M. Jacqueline Carey is one of the most popular "pop-fantasy" writers of the decade, and her Kushiel series can be found in Barnes and Noble, a few shelves down from Doug Adams and a section to the left of Robert E. Heinlein.

This is far more of a "by and large" than you either want to admit, or are spinning. There are entire sections dedicated to literary erotica in Border's. My public library has a copy of the Beast series.

Sex is natural, and scenes involving sex, and talk of sex, should certainly be expected and acceptable in games like Armageddon, which is geared toward adults. It's merely the frequency and focus that some of us object to.

Quote

2. The best fiction doesn't, by and large, include graphic sex or torture.  Check any bookshelf.

I think the only problem I have with your -opinions- is that you state them as facts. Honestly I think that's why everyone is getting irritated.

I think folks stating their opinion as fact or the definitive word on a subject is probably the reason behind nearly every thread that derails into a flame war.

Prefacing statements with "I think" or "In my opinion" can go a long way towards curbing that, I've found.

I often try to preface things with "I think" or "in my opinion", but truly we're all equals here and on a subjective topic like this that should be implied, no?  Let's remember that what anyone here says (with the exception of immortals) should be considered opinion, so let's not take it personally or as an affront to anyone's reality.  Same with disagreements with anyone's non-prefaced statements.


Anyway... back on topic, not being female, I haven't voted.

My general ramblings on the subject, though:

Armageddon's NO SEXISM rule is sometimes invoked even when the behavior is not inherently sexist.  I don't think it's inherently sexist for a male character to blatantly inquire if a female character is a prostitute while not doing the same for males.  Unless said character homo/bisexual, why would he care enough to ask if a male character is a whore?  It's not sexist, it's just a byproduct of his gender and sexual orientation.

I think that theory can apply to more subtle situations too.  A male sergeant who treats women in his unit better (or worse... people can be weird like that) may do so not because he's sexist, but because he views said women as potential mates, and that really can change how you interact with someone.

However, there most certainly is a line that can be crossed.  The "cooking is women's work" example is definitely poor roleplay, as are most sayings like "real men X" or "got the balls to Y".

Quote from: Marauder Moe on July 27, 2009, 10:08:19 AM
Armageddon's NO SEXISM rule is sometimes invoked even when the behavior is not inherently sexist.  I don't think it's inherently sexist for a male character to blatantly inquire if a female character is a prostitute while not doing the same for males.  Unless said character homo/bisexual, why would he care enough to ask if a male character is a whore?  It's not sexist, it's just a byproduct of his gender and sexual orientation.

I just wanted to comment on that to say that I think the intent of the OP wasn't to say that in itself was inherently sexist but when said character reacts that way to most or all women or repeated characters do, while treating themselves or men to another standard. I could just be putting my own spin on it of course. I don't really have a problem with a character (male or female) that believes anyone can be bought, but when many male characters only/routinely treat female characters as pieces of meat to buy to the point where it's vaguely unreasonable, I can see how that would be off-putting, or smacks of rl sexism pulled into the game. There's a big difference, to me, between treating everyone as chattel (even if you don't proposition them), and only treating most/all female characters (and female characters only) as potential virtual semen-hoisery.

In either case, I don't really care as a player, because I probably don't know enough about the character to know whether it's in character for them (I'm not the roleplay police) and if it's a player thing, I have no idea either. I do know that if it makes my character uncomfortable ICly, they will respond in that manner ICly, whether it involves getting up and leaving, doing something to cut down whomever has offended them verbally, or just stabbing them in the face, depending on what sort of character I'm playing.

As far as consent, you should always ask it for graphic sex/torture. Even if it's vanilla stuff it's a good idea to ask, or even FTB or whatever. It's just a conscientious thing to do for your fellow roleplayers. Edited to add/derail: I'm actually more offended when I hear of people not asking for consent than the original topics.

Quote from: Rhyden on July 26, 2009, 02:54:59 PM

Quote from: Lizzie on July 26, 2009, 02:07:13 PM
I object to the obsession with sex as some kind of normal thing that people should expect to see among the general populace. The existence of sex doesn't bother me at all. The fact that Zalanthans include sex among their interests doesn't bother me at all. The trend for people to -focus- on sexual activity is what I feel Eyeball is talking about, and what I agree is something that needs to be addressed. That it -seems- to be a trend, this focus on sex, the focus on objectifying females...the focus on females behaving as sexual objects rather than multi-dimensional people whose interests -include- sex, rather than -exclude- anything other than sex.

I gotta agree with Lizzie. Even things like "dame, broad, and bitch" seem a bit weird for Zalanthas.

I call women - women and I do my absolute best to treat every female the exact same I would treat any male. Hell, I haven't even had a sexually active character in years. I don't play Arm for that.

Probably the most offsetting situation was a few months back when I was telling an underling (kinda think it was an animated NPC) to do some cooking work. He said no, that's women's work.  >:( I played it off as them having something wrong with their head. Suffice to say, that character died pretty quickly after.

Bottom line? Watch what you say/do because as we all know on the internet, just one word can have a significantly different meaning than your intention.

It was a PC. I didn't like it either.

Gotta side with Charas here. Not touching this one. I already know people will jump down my throat for my thoughts.

I did want to say that....

QuoteThere's probably a lot of good erotic fiction out there.  You just don't see it on display at Barnes & Noble because, well, that sort of thing causes a lot of darn consternation.  The idea that sex isn't a good topic for FANTASY is quite laughable, really.

That made me giggle. Also, I find I am agreeing with Lizzie. That made me giggle as well. Fathi also made me giggle. My thanks to you three.

Quote from: HTX on July 27, 2009, 01:09:35 AM
My only concern is, as previously mentioned, the "objectification" of women. Simply because I believe gender equality adds a lot to the game.

My feelings exactly. Sexual content doesn't bother me, but when it crosses into sexism it does. Granted, it doesn't affect my play, and I don't see it often. But I have seen some really egregious examples of it too, that seemed way out of place in Zalanthas.

Quote from: Marauder Moe
Armageddon's NO SEXISM rule is sometimes invoked even when the behavior is not inherently sexist.  I don't think it's inherently sexist for a male character to blatantly inquire if a female character is a prostitute while not doing the same for males.  Unless said character homo/bisexual, why would he care enough to ask if a male character is a whore?  It's not sexist, it's just a byproduct of his gender and sexual orientation.

I think this is a good point. The cumulative effect of this bothers me some, though, if you have several male characters who have the same (irrational) habit of going around asking female characters if they're prostitutes, but little or none of the same in reverse.

Quote from: Eyeball on July 26, 2009, 01:46:57 PM
Me. It actually started to bother me personally a few months ago to see the handful of female characters in the Byn more or less continually being the recepients of sexually suggestive comments, invitations, remarks about behaviour and so on. It was totally one-sided; the female characters weren't giving it back to the male characters.

I've got to say this one example jumped out at me in reading the thread. I have no first hand experience playing in the Byn, but I have had some great interactions with that clan. I hope what you're describing is not typical. Especially because it's the one clan that new players are most often steered toward.

Quote from: flurry on July 27, 2009, 03:04:03 PM

Quote from: Marauder Moe
Armageddon's NO SEXISM rule is sometimes invoked even when the behavior is not inherently sexist.  I don't think it's inherently sexist for a male character to blatantly inquire if a female character is a prostitute while not doing the same for males.  Unless said character homo/bisexual, why would he care enough to ask if a male character is a whore?  It's not sexist, it's just a byproduct of his gender and sexual orientation.

I think this is a good point. The cumulative effect of this bothers me some, though, if you have several male characters who have the same (irrational) habit of going around asking female characters if they're prostitutes, but little or none of the same in reverse.

But the players doing so aren't at fault for the ones not doing so, are they?

Quote from: Marauder Moe on July 27, 2009, 03:16:21 PM

Quote from: flurry on July 27, 2009, 03:04:03 PM

Quote from: Marauder Moe
Armageddon's NO SEXISM rule is sometimes invoked even when the behavior is not inherently sexist.  I don't think it's inherently sexist for a male character to blatantly inquire if a female character is a prostitute while not doing the same for males.  Unless said character homo/bisexual, why would he care enough to ask if a male character is a whore?  It's not sexist, it's just a byproduct of his gender and sexual orientation.

I think this is a good point. The cumulative effect of this bothers me some, though, if you have several male characters who have the same (irrational) habit of going around asking female characters if they're prostitutes, but little or none of the same in reverse.

But the players doing so aren't at fault for the ones not doing so, are they?

No, I'm not sure anyone is to blame. I just don't think the end result is good.

I guess it depends what form it all takes. If it's an isolated question that's one thing, but if it's someone going around expecting half the women they meet to be prostitutes, that just doesn't even make sense.

After a bit of thought, I don't really think I've even encountered this exactly, and I've had the pleasure of playing with several extremely forward male pcs in Allanak, recently. I've seen a fair bit of offering them things for sex, or asking if they knew any whores or other similar things, but I don't think I've yet had it 'assumed' that my PC was a prostitute. Since there has been so much harping on semantics, I thought it kinda appropriate to put that out there. In fact, the only time I've ever even had a PC called a whore was after they'd accepted coins from a PC in exchange for a sexual act, thus, literally, making them a whore. Meh. Be the change you want to see.

Sexual roleplay can enhance a character and/or other characters play. Ever wonder how those little kids run around? I don't think it was by spontaneous fission.

In a world with no sexism, and no taboo about sex, I would think the game is running just fine. 

But, I may have missed some of this poor roleplay being referenced.  Like the cooking thing ...  I mean--  how dumb is that?   ;D

But as the title goes, I don't think you can be too direct about sex, so long as you're talking and not harassing another character.  Or if you are, at least be friends with them, right?  :)

Rape requires consent, bottom line.

But hey, I'm not a girl, so-- !  I'll stfu.

Quote from: Jia on July 27, 2009, 09:06:55 PM
In a world with no sexism, and no taboo about sex, I would think the game is running just fine. 

I've only ever played two female characters way in the past (one being horribly scarred and disfigured to the point where it was clear the ugly stick wouldn't even touch her) and both of them were constantly asked for sexual favors in exchange for coin or even flirted with on a daily basis. I merely, as a player, regarded that as a sense of lack of female characters in the game as well as the fact that sex is going to be in anything or everything you play.

I'm like a few others how I really don't want to get put up in here. However, from my personal view I've got to agree with Jia who said:

Quote from: Jia on July 27, 2009, 09:06:55 PM
In a world with no sexism, and no taboo about sex, I would think the game is running just fine.

As for the topic of rape... I think if someone is openly discussing it IC then going as far as asking everyone in the room for constent isn't needed. But when it comes to the act of it, consent should be asked pre-storyline before one even leads up to it, that way when the player is told no OOC you don't have that air of wondering where to go from not to mention it's following the rules setup by the staff.

Quote from: domwriter on July 27, 2009, 10:03:40 PM
As for the topic of rape... I think if someone is openly discussing it IC then going as far as asking everyone in the room for constent isn't needed. But when it comes to the act of it, consent should be asked pre-storyline before one even leads up to it, that way when the player is told no OOC you don't have that air of wondering where to go from not to mention it's following the rules setup by the staff.

This is exactly what I believe the consent help file spells out.

I think we should all just keep playing how we are, and avoid as much censorship as possible.

I didn't come to ARM to immerse myself in the same world I get censored while watching TV in the states.

Please, let everyone talk about sex, and violence, and whatever else pops in their mind.

To be very clear on what the rules spell out...

-> Consent is needed to play out graphic scenes, be they sexual or violent in nature... or violently sexual in nature. ;)  Without consent, you fade to black.

-> Rape is a special case, you MUST get consent to even begin a rape activity.  You must also get consent to play it out.  Without the first consent, your character can NOT rape the character you'd intended.  If the first consent is given, but the second is not, the rape may occur but you must fade to black.  Only if you have consent on both counts can you actually go through the act on screen with emotes and all the rest.

-> You do NOT need consent for your character to talk about something, only to do something.

I'm sorry, but my personal opinion is that if someone wants consent on both counts, I don't want to play with them.  The only thing I could imagine is that they can't get away with it in real life so they bring it to the game.  No thanks.  I can see and understand someone not fading on normal sex.  I can understand someone playing a violent and depraved character that would rape someone.  I can NOT see any sane, well-balanced person actually wanting to enact a rape scene however, unless it is a re-enactment for educational/informative purposes.

To summarize, I'm fine with the rules they way they are.  I am not uncomfortable with them.  I don't think anyone should be.  You can shield yourself from things you find distasteful.  Don't act out rape, though.

Quick answer is no, that it doesn't bother me, though with the caveat that I've seen sex-related situations get to the point of preposterousness, which I find jarring because it breaks my immersion (ie, it's obviously a bunch of guys fighting with a particular part of their anatomy and describing it as crazily as they can).  Again, though, that's not so much offense as irritation.

I've had some pretty lousy come ons in the past, though, and find that it's easiest to manage this by creating characters who are, for whatever reason, very selective in how they deal with sexual situations.  I suppose it could come off looking like discomfort, but it's probably not.  Beyond that, you're dealing with a group of women who regularly plot the murder, ruin, and destruction of other characters (as well as occasionally our own).  My guess is that it'd take quite a lot to phase us.

Sorry, gotta throw this in there, as it's bothering me a bit.

[quote =Help Consent]Specifically in the case of roleplaying through a rape or sexual torture, the instigator takes on added responsibility. In this case, the instigator absolutely must OOC'ly ask for and must obtain explicit consent from the victim's player prior to involving their character in any emote specifically indicative of the act of rape, no matter how non-graphic you believe it to be. If you wish to pursue a rape plotline or engage in an act of rape, you must seek consent from your target. Without that consent, the plotline may NOT be pursued.[/quote]


It's the bolded part that I'm apparently confused with. That means, as spawnloser said, that you must get consent not only for RPing it, but also for FTB? That makes no sense to me. I'm sorry to be a bit blunt here, but you don't always have a choice if you get raped irl. Why are you getting the choice here, on a game that's stated it's harsh? Granted, it would be awesome if we were given that choice irl, but.... We're not. My thoughts? If you want your char to have a chance to get out of the rape, flip a coin. Roll some dice. Figure out how far ti goes. IMO, rape almost NEVER happens IG, so this will almost never be an issue. If it does come up, I don't think it's "realistic" for your character to get out of it just because you as the player don't want it to happen.

And I've seen a BUNCH of stuff changed over realism.


But then, I'm also really comfortable with pretty much anything, and I know a lot of people arn't.

Quote
It's the bolded part that I'm apparently confused with. That means, as spawnloser said, that you must get consent not only for RPing it, but also for FTB? That makes no sense to me. I'm sorry to be a bit blunt here, but you don't always have a choice if you get raped irl. Why are you getting the choice here, on a game that's stated it's harsh? Granted, it would be awesome if we were given that choice irl, but.... We're not. My thoughts? If you want your char to have a chance to get out of the rape, flip a coin. Roll some dice. Figure out how far ti goes. IMO, rape almost NEVER happens IG, so this will almost never be an issue. If it does come up, I don't think it's "realistic" for your character to get out of it just because you as the player don't want it to happen.

I think the point is to not force players into playing a rape victim, which could be rather depressing. Especially if you are a rape victim.

Thus the reason I suggested a roll in the RARE case this happens, rather than just ignoring it completely.

I see your point tortall ... but I think rape is just one of those subjects that's so sensative staff decided to treat it with extra kid gloves.

I would say ... give rape development the same conditions torture development has personally. That being, the person having it done to their character has the right to say not only: FTB please I don't want to RP this.

But also: I don't want to play this character after this this event, so please assume that the event kills them.

Done. Roll up a new one.

I'm honestly 110% ok with the current policy though, and don't think it needs changing. Just saying ... if I were going to change it, that would be what I'd change it to.

I'd be pretty concerned about leaving a player's comfort to chance, even if a roll will almost never be necessary. Then almost no one would be uncomfortable.

Really, this is a game and it's important players are comfortable with whatever they do here.

Rape is a VERY sensitive subject.  You should not have to be forced to play a rape victim.  You should not have to give up a character because you don't want to play a rape victim.  Rape is one of the most heinous things you can do to another person, worse than torture or death, if you ask me.  It leaves scars non-rape victims could not even begin to understand.  Leave it as it is.  If someone asks 'ooc consent for rape' and the reply is 'ooc no consent' then the plotline/scene/rape does NOT happen, period.

Yes, tortall, this is how it is.  I will not support ANY change to this rule in any way.  If the rule changes, I will deliberately go out of my way to cause people to regret that the rule changed I feel so strongly about it.  That is all.

While I agree with this wholeheartedly:

Quote from: RairenI've had some pretty lousy come ons in the past, though, and find that it's easiest to manage this by creating characters who are, for whatever reason, very selective in how they deal with sexual situations.  I suppose it could come off looking like discomfort, but it's probably not.  Beyond that, you're dealing with a group of women who regularly plot the murder, ruin, and destruction of other characters (as well as occasionally our own).  My guess is that it'd take quite a lot to phase us.

In regards to the game's current stance on not forcing a player through rape scenarios:

Quote from: spawnloser on July 28, 2009, 06:10:34 PMI will not support ANY change to this rule in any way.

Quote from: a strange shadow on July 28, 2009, 06:31:41 PM
In regards to the game's current stance on not forcing a player through rape scenarios:

Quote from: spawnloser on July 28, 2009, 06:10:34 PMI will not support ANY change to this rule in any way.

Yeah, me three or four or whatever number it is we're up to on this.

As to the original question: Yes, I think that the roleplayed emphasis on sexuality toward female PCs can sometimes be off-putting to female players. I found it off-putting at first, but adapted when I did the analysis and realized that the average ARM player is a girlfriendless, 23-year-old, nerdy, white, American guy. Which is to say: Eminently slappable and responds well to training.

Quote from: Krishnamurti on July 26, 2009, 01:20:36 AM
I think the answer is more female pkillers. Here's a fun project... people who normally play PvP roles and enjoy pkilling and permadeath... how about all of us start making female characters and regularly murder male characters who bring their real-life prejudices too frequently into Zalanthas. I think that'd help the situation wonderfully. Amazons and Valkyries of the world: Unite!

Next concept indeed beware

I really don't think anyone has suggested forcing people to RP through rape, and I highly doubt the consent rule is going anywhere. Let's let the rape derail die as it's just whipping folks into an emotional frenzy.

QuoteQuote from: Krishnamurti on July 26, 2009, 12:20:36 AM
I think the answer is more female pkillers. Here's a fun project... people who normally play PvP roles and enjoy pkilling and permadeath... how about all of us start making female characters and regularly murder male characters who bring their real-life prejudices too frequently into Zalanthas. I think that'd help the situation wonderfully. Amazons and Valkyries of the world: Unite!

Next concept indeed beware

Does this mean that threesomes will suddenly become easy to land in the Gaj? Giggity-giggity-alriiiight!

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on July 29, 2009, 07:35:46 AM

QuoteQuote from: Krishnamurti on July 26, 2009, 12:20:36 AM
I think the answer is more female pkillers. Here's a fun project... people who normally play PvP roles and enjoy pkilling and permadeath... how about all of us start making female characters and regularly murder male characters who bring their real-life prejudices too frequently into Zalanthas. I think that'd help the situation wonderfully. Amazons and Valkyries of the world: Unite!

Done.  :D

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on July 29, 2009, 07:35:46 AMDoes this mean that threesomes will suddenly become easy to land in the Gaj? Giggity-giggity-alriiiight!

They aren't?

Oh... wait... you meant with male pc's getting two chicks.
/me laughs hard.

Quote from: spawnloser on July 28, 2009, 12:13:03 PM
I'm sorry, but my personal opinion is that if someone wants consent on both counts, I don't want to play with them.  The only thing I could imagine is that they can't get away with it in real life so they bring it to the game.  No thanks.  I can see and understand someone not fading on normal sex.  I can understand someone playing a violent and depraved character that would rape someone.  I can NOT see any sane, well-balanced person actually wanting to enact a rape scene however, unless it is a re-enactment for educational/informative purposes.

To summarize, I'm fine with the rules they way they are.  I am not uncomfortable with them.  I don't think anyone should be.  You can shield yourself from things you find distasteful.  Don't act out rape, though.

In real life you can't get away with murder, cannibalism, torture, stealing babies, selling slaves, impaling people on spikes or throwing them into the beetle-filled pits. If we took out everything that's unacceptable IRL, what would be left for the game? I am not a big fan of murder IRL, but I'd love to play a successful assassin. I've had a female char (by no means f-me, unless you're a sick elf loving degenerate irl) who was, if not raped, then violated. I don't think the player behind the other char was sick or unbalanced. Just as I don't think people who app southern templars are sadistic freaks. Or people who play violent mercenaries are cutthroat sociopaths.

Game, escape from your cubicle, fantasy being the keywords here. Is reading the Books of Blood enough to label you a maniac? Watching a splatter horror movie? Drama about a rape victim? No. You have every right to find rape & torture distasteful and sensitive and OOC such thoughts, but please refrain from judging the mental state of another player.

Quote from: tortall on July 28, 2009, 01:54:53 PM
Thus the reason I suggested a roll in the RARE case this happens, rather than just ignoring it completely.

It is good that you are offering suggestions, but I think this is one area in particular that the staff will not ever budge on.  If you don't have consent for a rape plotline from the person that will be the victim, you can't pursue it, period.

Not that I am saying I am even interested in the idea of a roll for this, but I'm not sure how it would work without being a completely dickish move.

Quote from: A hypothetical situation that would never happen"Consent for rape plot?"
"No."
"Ok.  Well, I am going to roll for it anyway."
"..."

To reiterate, if you don't have consent for a rape plotline, you cannot pursue it.  Don't.  This isn't a matter of realism, this is a matter of policy.

Quote from: spicemustflow on July 29, 2009, 09:43:59 AM

Quote from: spawnloser on July 28, 2009, 12:13:03 PM
I'm sorry, but my personal opinion is that if someone wants consent on both counts, I don't want to play with them.  The only thing I could imagine is that they can't get away with it in real life so they bring it to the game.  No thanks.  I can see and understand someone not fading on normal sex.  I can understand someone playing a violent and depraved character that would rape someone.  I can NOT see any sane, well-balanced person actually wanting to enact a rape scene however, unless it is a re-enactment for educational/informative purposes.

To summarize, I'm fine with the rules they way they are.  I am not uncomfortable with them.  I don't think anyone should be.  You can shield yourself from things you find distasteful.  Don't act out rape, though.

In real life you can't get away with murder, cannibalism, torture, stealing babies, selling slaves, impaling people on spikes or throwing them into the beetle-filled pits. If we took out everything that's unacceptable IRL, what would be left for the game? I am not a big fan of murder IRL, but I'd love to play a successful assassin. I've had a female char (by no means f-me, unless you're a sick elf loving degenerate irl) who was, if not raped, then violated. I don't think the player behind the other char was sick or unbalanced. Just as I don't think people who app southern templars are sadistic freaks. Or people who play violent mercenaries are cutthroat sociopaths.

Game, escape from your cubicle, fantasy being the keywords here. Is reading the Books of Blood enough to label you a maniac? Watching a splatter horror movie? Drama about a rape victim? No. You have every right to find rape & torture distasteful and sensitive and OOC such thoughts, but please refrain from judging the mental state of another player.

This is a very valid point. Wanting to explore something in the realm of fantasy does not equal wanting to do said action in the real world. If you (in the generic sense) can not imagine why someone would want to do or not do something other than because they must be a bad person ... then I'm sorry to say it, but that is a lack of imagination on your part, and has nothing to do with the other person.

So if a character is being overly direct about sex in the game world, I would personally not jump to the conclusion that it must be because the character's player is a bad person (however you'd like to describe "bad" be it, geeky and sex starved, closet pervert, ect ect). Rather I would just assume said person is playing a role and respond IC as I think my character would because ... after all, I'm playing a role too.

There is a difference between rape and the rest of those, though.  There are clear boundaries between sanity and the insane when it comes to murder and cannibalism... pushing someone into a spike-filled pit or torturing them... well, unless you're the US government on the last one, but to the rest of us it's clear.  Rape is one of those things, though, that some people actually do think is okay.  People that commit murders (to pick out the easiest one to make the comparison with) DO know that murder is wrong, but make allowances for their cause or for emotional extremes.  People that commit rape think the victim deserved it 99% of the time.  They think that what they did wasn't wrong.  It is NOT something I want coming into this game without BOTH parties understanding and acceptance that it is just a plotline before it can happen... and even then, acting it out?

Oh, and the average person isn't out looking to do murder, torture or spike-filled pit pushing.  Only a small percentage of the population LOOKS for opportunities to do that.  The only reason players look to do that is because they're trying to win instead of make a good story.  The characters I've seen/heard of that are verifiable psychos that do seek to do all this, most of them are just griefers.


Oh, and yes, I do assume that most of you are horny dumb-asses that aren't getting laid enough.  Remember, there's no wymynz on the intranets.  The average player of these sorts of games is a pasty, teen-ager to 20-something nerd.

Still, just because someone wants sex or whatever, in game.  I don't judge the player based on the character.  I understand 'typicals' like I mentioned just a bit ago, but I don't judge the player because of a desire to do something that is natural to want to do... but when people start desiring to do unnatural stuff, that's when I start looking closer and start making judgements.  The one that I can say, I already did... I can not imagine how a sane and well-balanced individual would want to play out that scene.  Rape should make you feel dirty, just like if you see it in a movie.  If it doesn't, I worry about you.

I'm going to be honest, I only read half of your first paragraph and just from that, it seems to me like you're worked up again.

Racism is rampant in game, we all RP it out ... some people in RL also think racism is ok, but I'd like to think that all of us big people playing the game know the difference.

Since that "difference" you opened your post with is in fact, not exclusive to rape, as I just showed you, I'm inclined to think that people who might RP rape could have the capaticy to still understand that it isn't ok IRL.

Please calm down dude, and let it go. No one is trying to force anyone else to RP out rape. We're just saying that it is possible for a person who might be interested in RP'ing out a rape plot-line, to not actually be a rapist. The same way they might not actually be a murderer/torturer/racist/sex addict/animal cruelity supporter/atheist/witch.

This is make believe, and I dare say all of us understand that and know where the lines are.

Spawn, I have to disagree with you on this one, bud. Sometimes it's something that the character needs to tell their story, whether it's played out and implied. The player of the assaulting character has a vision for their character, and there is no reason they should not play their character the way they see it, within the lines lain out by the consent rule. There is also no reason that one should assume that the player is sick because their character is.

If you wanted to be honest, rape is probably a more natural instinct in real life than murder, or at least on the same level. But that's irrelevant. You and I may never play a character who wants to rape people (I know I won't), but some of us play some dark characters, and I think it's all part of the story. You may note that there are plenty of characters in books who commit rapes, even if just implied.

I go by the rule of not judging anybody, and I try to follow it. It makes playing much much enjoyable.

Actually further thinking about this poll - it really should be limited to female voters.  It doesn't matter, really what males think makes women mudders uncomfortable, but what women mudders find uncomfortable.  If i read the poll question correctly.

Like I had said a bit earlier, according to the polls, and nearly all of the women who posted replies, the answer has been: No, it doesn't really bother us.

Quote from: DustMight on July 30, 2009, 11:54:44 AM
Actually further thinking about this poll - it really should be limited to female voters.  It doesn't matter, really what males think makes women mudders uncomfortable, but what women mudders find uncomfortable.  If i read the poll question correctly.

True, but in a game like Arm you have a balance in somethings. I've had male characters raped by females characters before and once or twice a male character raped by a male. I think you did right by posting a poll that doesn't exclude a male voter, like myself.

Quote from: musashi on July 30, 2009, 10:50:43 AM
I'm going to be honest, I only read half of your first paragraph and just from that, it seems to me like you're worked up again.

Then don't argue with me if you can't read the arguments that you're opposing.  I'm being challenged on a position and I'm defending it.  If you're not going to read the defense of that position, I won't bother responding to anything else you have to say either.

I will say one thing, though, about what I am responding to...

Yes, I'm worked up.  A few of my female friends have been raped while I was friends with them.  I've seen what it does to them.  This is something that I do feel strongly about.

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 30, 2009, 11:06:36 AM
Spawn, I have to disagree with you on this one, bud. Sometimes it's something that the character needs to tell their story, whether it's played out and implied. The player of the assaulting character has a vision for their character, and there is no reason they should not play their character the way they see it, within the lines lain out by the consent rule. There is also no reason that one should assume that the player is sick because their character is.

If you wanted to be honest, rape is probably a more natural instinct in real life than murder, or at least on the same level. But that's irrelevant. You and I may never play a character who wants to rape people (I know I won't), but some of us play some dark characters, and I think it's all part of the story. You may note that there are plenty of characters in books who commit rapes, even if just implied.

I go by the rule of not judging anybody, and I try to follow it. It makes playing much much enjoyable.

I may indeed play a character that wants to rape people.  I will never ask for consent to play it out, though, rather than FTB.  I'm not saying that it is less of a natural instinct than murder.  I'm saying it's a more depraved thing to think is okay.  (I do believe there are people better off dead.  I do NOT think there are people better off raped... EVER.)  I said an opinion, that I find it deplorable that someone would want to play it out.  A FTB can include all the information needed.

Just to be clear.  I'm not saying that characters should not rape characters.  I'm saying that players shouldn't want to play out a rape scene in the mud.  If you do, I really think you need to examine that urge.



Still, as has been pointed out, this is a major derail.  I'm done with this topic fork.

No one is arguing with you. There is nothing to argue about. You just have an opinion not shared my myself and several other folks on the boards. Calm down please.

More in the spirit of the thread's topic. I'm wondering if this has been a mostly Allanaki experience? Everyone keeps referencing the Gaj in their posts, but I've never seen sex so blatantly the focus of conversation in Tuluk.

Quote from: musashi on July 30, 2009, 01:27:47 PM
Everyone keeps referencing the Gaj in their posts, but I've never seen sex so blatantly the focus of conversation in Tuluk.

You obviously never met a certain Salarri agent up there.  ;D

Apparently not :-)

I'm just wondering if folks are taking the Gaj's particular ... setting ... as an absolute anything goes type of place.

Spawnloser, you realize that the consent system is a foolproof mechanism? No one who'd be offended by a rape scene isn't required to even fade through it, let alone play it out. I'm not sure what the fuss is about. If you think that people who play 'dark characters' can't distinguish between the game and reality and retain their Kurgan mindset when they log off, then you're insulting your fellow players.

Also, to add, thinking that raping someone in game stems from not getting laid enough IRL is laughable. What, then, is the cause of other crimes against the body where the perpetrator thinks that the victim 'deserved it'?

Quote from: spicemustflow on July 30, 2009, 02:23:30 PM
Spawnloser, you realize that the consent system is a foolproof mechanism? No one who'd be offended by a rape scene isn't required to even fade through it, let alone play it out. I'm not sure what the fuss is about. If you think that people who play 'dark characters' can't distinguish between the game and reality and retain their Kurgan mindset when they log off, then you're insulting your fellow players.

Also, to add, thinking that raping someone in game stems from not getting laid enough IRL is laughable. What, then, is the cause of other crimes against the body where the perpetrator thinks that the victim 'deserved it'?

My entire argument stems from someone suggesting that there be a roll to determine if rape would happen regardless of consent.  Consent would still be required to play out the scene in that suggestion.  Read the thread.  My argument was that if someone was that hellbent on raping someone in game, they need to take a step back and figure out why they think that.

Then your entire arguement was moot, Spawnloser. Nyr had already posted, and made it -very- clear that no suggestions on changing the rape-consent policy would be entertained.

Calm down. It ain't gonna happen, and anyone who wants it can happen is just gonna have to keep wanting, cause it ain't.

Consent: Yes/no/fade?

Yes  =  I agree to my character taking part in this sex/rape/torture scene, and also agree to roleplay out said scene.
No    = I do NOT agree for my character to to take part in this sex/rape/torture scene.
Fade =  I agree to my character taking part in this sex/rape/torture scene, but do not wish to roleplay out said scene.

'Nuff said.

Quote from: some spawnloser highlights on July 30, 2009, 04:04:46 PM
The only thing I could imagine is that they can't get away with it in real life so they bring it to the game.

I can NOT see any sane, well-balanced person actually wanting to enact a rape scene however, unless it is a re-enactment for educational/informative purposes.

Oh, and yes, I do assume that most of you are horny dumb-asses that aren't getting laid enough.  Remember, there's no wymynz on the intranets.  The average player of these sorts of games is a pasty, teen-ager to 20-something nerd.

I can not imagine how a sane and well-balanced individual would want to play out that scene.  Rape should make you feel dirty, just like if you see it in a movie.  If it doesn't, I worry about you.

Just to be clear.  I'm not saying that characters should not rape characters.  I'm saying that players shouldn't want to play out a rape scene in the mud.  If you do, I really think you need to examine that urge.

Having played females, rapists, serial killers, pedophiles, necrophiles, child killers, racists, cannibals, a religious fanatics within the realm of Zalanthas I oddly enough find myself wanting none of these urges irl. Go figure.

I find alot of these posts insulting to your fellow players,  those blessed with the epic power to separate reality from.. a text based game.

Quote from: Majikal on July 30, 2009, 04:32:16 PM
Having played females, rapists, serial killers, pedophiles, necrophiles, child killers, racists, cannibals, a religious fanatics ...

I got a laugh at seeing "females" head this lovely list. Are you implying something?  ;)

Quote from: Salt Merchant on July 30, 2009, 04:37:34 PM

Quote from: Majikal on July 30, 2009, 04:32:16 PM
Having played females, rapists, serial killers, pedophiles, necrophiles, child killers, racists, cannibals, a religious fanatics ...

I got a laugh at seeing "females" head this lovely list. Are you implying something?  ;)

Only that I enjoy having a penis in real life and lack any sekwit urge to trade it in for a vagina.  ;D

Quote from: Majikal on July 30, 2009, 04:45:12 PM

Quote from: Salt Merchant on July 30, 2009, 04:37:34 PM

Quote from: Majikal on July 30, 2009, 04:32:16 PM
Having played females, rapists, serial killers, pedophiles, necrophiles, child killers, racists, cannibals, a religious fanatics ...

I got a laugh at seeing "females" head this lovely list. Are you implying something?  ;)

Only that I enjoy having a penis in real life and lack any sekwit urge to trade it in for a vagina.  ;D

Not even for a day?  :D

Quote from: musashi on July 30, 2009, 06:57:38 PM

Quote from: Majikal on July 30, 2009, 04:45:12 PM

Quote from: Salt Merchant on July 30, 2009, 04:37:34 PM

Quote from: Majikal on July 30, 2009, 04:32:16 PM
Having played females, rapists, serial killers, pedophiles, necrophiles, child killers, racists, cannibals, a religious fanatics ...

I got a laugh at seeing "females" head this lovely list. Are you implying something?  ;)

Only that I enjoy having a penis in real life and lack any sekwit urge to trade it in for a vagina.  ;D

Not even for a day?  :D

Fuckers.  >:(

QuoteHaving played females, rapists, serial killers, pedophiles, necrophiles, child killers, racists, cannibals, a religious fanatics within the realm of Zalanthas I oddly enough find myself wanting none of these urges irl. Go figure.

I find alot of these posts insulting to your fellow players,  those blessed with the epic power to separate reality from.. a text based game.

A'men brotha!

I think here at the offices of Arm, Ginka, and Utep (LLC) we're all a bit atypical.

Just because I want to do some weird shit IG, doesn't mean I'm a weird person. If I'm in the middle of such an act and I go "gone Hold on, I'm gonna go choke myself with a belt and masturbate for a minute," you then have permission to throw stones. If you think these acts detract somehow from your enjoyment of the game, then all you gotta do is, DON'T CONSENT.

To be fair, you shouldn't include the comma at the end of your gone message because the game will add a period automatically ... engaging in autoerotic asphyxiation is no excuse for sloppy grammer!!!

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on July 31, 2009, 10:11:19 AM
If you think these acts detract somehow from your enjoyment of the game, then all you gotta do is, DON'T CONSENT.

Swinging back into the topic of the thread (which, amazingly, seems to imply that the only kind of egregious sexual activities in game involve rape), if only we could use this strategy for everything!  ;)

QuoteThe tall, lofty man says to you in pitiful-accented sirihish, "My last lover disappeared and I think she's dead.  And I've been kicked out of Salarr because the Agent is a jerk who thinks he's better than me and called me an idiot."

The tall, lofty man sobs.

The tall, lofty man says in pitiful-accented sirihish, "You probably think he's right, but..."

The tall lofty man bites down on his lip, peircing gaze locked onto your mouth.

You say, out of character:  DO NOT WANT

*** With every possible respect to people who play emotional, deep-feeling, insecure characters, of course.  Ahem.

Exept, that isn't the topic of the thread. I think that's why some of us are frustrated. To summarize:

The topic of the thread, is about the perception that players are -so- into sexual behavior with their characters, that it -seems- as though that's all you ever see. And, that this perception, or the behavior, or both, detracts from enjoyment of the game.

Edited to be more specific: that this behavior is primarily directed toward female PCs, with the OOC assumption that it is ICly appropriate to assume that female PCs are all whores, and that it's okay to use that term in a derogatory way, even though in Zalanthas the profession isn't a derogatory profession.

Why does every thread about sex turn into a thread about rape?  De-evolution is such a turn-off.

Because someone always seems to have a soapbox they're itching to stand on?

Quote from: Lizzie on July 31, 2009, 10:30:09 AMthe OOC assumption that it is ICly appropriate to assume that female PCs are all whores, and that it's okay to use that term in a derogatory way, even though in Zalanthas the profession isn't a derogatory profession.

True, however, if someone makes an assumption that your character is a whore there is also a burden on you to not roleplay offense even thought your own personal cultural reaction is to be offended.

Quote from: Lizzie on July 30, 2009, 04:14:40 PM
Then your entire arguement was moot, Spawnloser. Nyr had already posted, and made it -very- clear that no suggestions on changing the rape-consent policy would be entertained.

Calm down. It ain't gonna happen, and anyone who wants it can happen is just gonna have to keep wanting, cause it ain't.

First, my argument came before.  Second, my argument continued to be attacked after Nyr's post.  Everyone should know by now that I don't back down when people continue to attack me, my opinion or my argument in support of my opinion.

Quote from: Majikal on July 30, 2009, 04:32:16 PMHaving played females, rapists, serial killers, pedophiles, necrophiles, child killers, racists, cannibals, a religious fanatics within the realm of Zalanthas I oddly enough find myself wanting none of these urges irl. Go figure.

I find alot of these posts insulting to your fellow players,  those blessed with the epic power to separate reality from.. a text based game.

Oddly enough, I've played all of those too except necrophiles.  I don't find myself wanting to do it in real life either.  You're ignoring the main thrust of my argument, that I find it troubling that someone would want to FORCE such on another PLAYER and would also want to play it out.

Spawnloser, I don't think many people (I for certain did not) cared about or really disagreed with the main thrust of your arguement, if that was it.

What got me and likely others offended, was that the main thrust there, seemed to be accompanied every time with little comments that amounted to: People with a different opinion than the one I have about this are sick in the head, and I judge you!

Folks don't like opinions shoved down their throat in such a manner.

Quote from: spawnloser on July 31, 2009, 10:46:01 AM
The only thing I could imagine is that they can't get away with it in real life so they bring it to the game.

I can NOT see any sane, well-balanced person actually wanting to enact a rape scene however, unless it is a re-enactment for educational/informative purposes.

Oh, and yes, I do assume that most of you are horny dumb-asses that aren't getting laid enough.  Remember, there's no wymynz on the intranets.  The average player of these sorts of games is a pasty, teen-ager to 20-something nerd.
   
I'm saying that players shouldn't want to play out a rape scene in the mud.  If you do, I really think you need to examine that urge.        

Judgemental, blanket statements like these offend people no matter how much moral highground you might think you have.

And people were attacking, or rather defending themselves from, these statements; not the main thrust of your arguement.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on July 31, 2009, 10:44:47 AM

Quote from: Lizzie on July 31, 2009, 10:30:09 AMthe OOC assumption that it is ICly appropriate to assume that female PCs are all whores, and that it's okay to use that term in a derogatory way, even though in Zalanthas the profession isn't a derogatory profession.

True, however, if someone makes an assumption that your character is a whore there is also a burden on you to not roleplay offense even thought your own personal cultural reaction is to be offended.

OMG you have no idea how much I agree with that, Moe. WAY too many times, you see female PCs written with obvious big boobs, obvious full child-bearing hips, obvious lustrous "please use my hair to tie me to the headboard" long hair, the kind of obvious that screams "Hi, I play muds because I want mudsex, please mudsex me" even when the player doesn't plan on actually getting sexed up online.

And then, because Zalanthan women are mostly skinny, with scars, lacking lustrous anything, and lacking support bras or any other means of preventing boobs from sagging to their bellybuttons if they get too big...and then you seet this curvy, exotic, boobalicious, fuck-me-and-spawn-my-child hips, flawless skin, except for that tiny scar on the side of your pinky just so you can pretend to fit in and not be perfect..

when someone says "Wow - she autta be a whore, she could make a fortune off that rack" - they get insulted? Gimma a fucking break. The only people who should be insulted would be nobles and templars, because it is a far too "familiar" kind of conversation to have with or about superior beings. It's the familiarity, rather than the topic, that would be insulting.

"Attractive enough to be a concubine / catamite" is a compliment in Zalanthas. One of my PCs was very flattered to be told that, even though she didn't agree with the assessment. ('cause I hadn't written her to be THAT pretty.)

Quote from: Lizzie on July 31, 2009, 11:35:04 AM
OMG you have no idea how much I agree with that, Moe. WAY too many times, you see female PCs written with obvious big boobs, obvious full child-bearing hips, obvious lustrous "please use my hair to tie me to the headboard" long hair, the kind of obvious that screams "Hi, I play muds because I want mudsex, please mudsex me" even when the player doesn't plan on actually getting sexed up online.

And then, because Zalanthan women are mostly skinny, with scars, lacking lustrous anything, and lacking support bras or any other means of preventing boobs from sagging to their bellybuttons if they get too big...and then you seet this curvy, exotic, boobalicious, fuck-me-and-spawn-my-child hips, flawless skin, except for that tiny scar on the side of your pinky just so you can pretend to fit in and not be perfect..

when someone says "Wow - she autta be a whore, she could make a fortune off that rack" - they get insulted? Gimma a fucking break. The only people who should be insulted would be nobles and templars, because it is a far too "familiar" kind of conversation to have with or about superior beings. It's the familiarity, rather than the topic, that would be insulting.

This is kind of misleading. When somebody calls an unrealistically attractive woman in Zalanthas a whore, they're not trying to compliment her with RARE exceptions. It's ooc misogyny entering into the game and then masquerading as world-appropriate roleplay. Excusing it as "But whore means a compliment!" after going "Look at that slut, she's such a fucking whore." is laughable. I'm not saying you do this, Lizzie, but I've certainly seen a lot of PCs who do.

Armag has an interesting situation where our ideas for what make men attractive fit nicely into the game, but our ideas of what makes women attractive do not. Everyone can talk about how they like rowdy, rough and tumble women, but when I look at a list of most beautiful people in the world, they are always expensively made up, fit but pliable, and curvaceous. So if you want to play an attractive woman in game (which is by no means a bad thing), you have to completely divorce your RL idea of beauty from your character - while if you want to play an attractive guy it's not much of a stretch at all.

I find the playerbase's treatment of female characters who have the entire "f-me" look to be deeply sexist. Bringing up sex around these PCs is not, however. At certain times it gets completely over the top (we think that since Zalanthans have to be 'harsh' they must talk about sex all the time), but I don't think that in and of itself is a huge problem in the game.

As for rape, if you have consent, go nuts. If you don't, stop and think of something else to do. RPing a rape scene is not about living out a personal fantasy, it's about building a narrative with a powerful, nasty scene that has significant consequences. I'm not really into that kind of RP, but two consenting adults? All the power to you. Consent is key, and I think we all agree on that.

Quote from: Comrade Canadia on July 31, 2009, 05:55:28 PM
Armag has an interesting situation where our ideas for what make men attractive fit nicely into the game, but our ideas of what makes women attractive do not. Everyone can talk about how they like rowdy, rough and tumble women, but when I look at a list of most beautiful people in the world, they are always expensively made up, fit but pliable, and curvaceous. So if you want to play an attractive woman in game (which is by no means a bad thing), you have to completely divorce your RL idea of beauty from your character - while if you want to play an attractive guy it's not much of a stretch at all.

I find the playerbase's treatment of female characters who have the entire "f-me" look to be deeply sexist. Bringing up sex around these PCs is not, however. At certain times it gets completely over the top (we think that since Zalanthans have to be 'harsh' they must talk about sex all the time), but I don't think that in and of itself is a huge problem in the game.

As for rape, if you have consent, go nuts. If you don't, stop and think of something else to do. RPing a rape scene is not about living out a personal fantasy, it's about building a narrative with a powerful, nasty scene that has significant consequences. I'm not really into that kind of RP, but two consenting adults? All the power to you. Consent is key, and I think we all agree on that.

Bolded the parts I agree with most. WTG Davey!

I'd still like to know whether threatening somebody with rape, if you're not even following through with that plot line, requires consent.  Sorry for further derail. 

Somehow that question got mashed up into people talking about rape scenes without consent

Quote from: MarshallDFX on July 31, 2009, 06:18:02 PM
I'd still like to know whether threatening somebody with rape, if you're not even following through with that plot line, requires consent.  Sorry for further derail. 

Somehow that question got mashed up into people talking about rape scenes without consent

Your best bet, IMO, would be to put this question in the 'Ask the Staff' section.

I and others have already gave our opinions on whether it's okay (from an ethical point of view, not necessarily from a rule point of view).

Quote from: Comrade CanadiaArmag has an interesting situation where our ideas for what make men attractive fit nicely into the game, but our ideas of what makes women attractive do not.

I'm not sure if I agree with this.

What's considered attractive for a man? A rugged, muscular look I'm assuming? Because there have been threads debating the realism of such an appearance considering the average commoner's poor diet.

Quote from: HTX on July 31, 2009, 07:51:55 PM
What's considered attractive for a man? A rugged, muscular look I'm assuming? Because there have been threads debating the realism of such an appearance considering the average commoner's poor diet.

I always thought voluptuous or fat women would be a good catch. They would be able to handle having children easier than your whip-thin half-starved scavenger types. It's also a touch more exotic.

Quote from: Comrade Canadia on July 31, 2009, 05:55:28 PM
As for rape, if you have consent, go nuts. If you don't, stop and think of something else to do. RPing a rape scene is not about living out a personal fantasy, it's about building a narrative with a powerful, nasty scene that has significant consequences. I'm not really into that kind of RP, but two consenting adults? All the power to you. Consent is key, and I think we all agree on that.

I was going to sit quietly by and watch this discussion, until this caught my eye.

Thank you for posting this.  I had an encounter that was much, much closer to rape than I thought at the time.  Consent checked more than once, by the way.  The event was a zalanthas-shaking event for my character, allowing them an insight into their own character that would never have occurred otherwise. 

I got a thank you from the player of the other character involved, and learned that they completely understood (ig) the reason behind the whole event.  It was a very rewarding experience for the development of the personality of my character and led to changes in how they dealt with the rest of the world around them.

Quote from: MarshallDFX on July 31, 2009, 06:18:02 PM
I'd still like to know whether threatening somebody with rape, if you're not even following through with that plot line, requires consent.

Quote from: Adhira, from the IDB
I say yes it does require consent.

Our consent rules say that no rape scenario can be played out without consent, if it is not given then all mention or thought of rape must be put aside. I think that this should rightfully apply to even broaching the subject in an IC way or using it as a threat etc.

Quote from: HTX on July 31, 2009, 07:51:55 PM

Quote from: Comrade CanadiaArmag has an interesting situation where our ideas for what make men attractive fit nicely into the game, but our ideas of what makes women attractive do not.

I'm not sure if I agree with this.

What's considered attractive for a man? A rugged, muscular look I'm assuming? Because there have been threads debating the realism of such an appearance considering the average commoner's poor diet.

I don't think muscular is as important as hard and tough, anything hyper-masculine, really. I understand what you're getting at here, and I think the musclebound supermen are just as silly as the clean, voluptuous women, but they aren't as much of a step outside of the game aesthetic. You feed someone well (which any one in a clan is) and make them swing a sword every day, they'll get plenty muscly. Either way, characters like this certainly get less hate than the clean, voluptuous women.

Err.. I always thought chubby would be attractive for men...

Really, we're in a starved world. A chubby body means, the owner has means to raise a child easily. The woman's instincts should tell her 'Go for it.'..

Mutters something like "I was chubby in uni and I had lots of girlfriends..."

And women? Large hips, large breasts.. Body hair.. Really.. those are the hints showing the woman is fertile, able to give birth and raise a child.

Of course, all of these are personal theories.

Quote from: evil_erdlu on August 01, 2009, 02:48:36 AM
Err.. I always thought chubby would be attractive for men...

Really, we're in a starved world. A chubby body means, the owner has means to raise a child easily. The woman's instincts should tell her 'Go for it.'..

Mutters something like "I was chubby in uni and I had lots of girlfriends..."

And women? Large hips, large breasts.. Body hair.. Really.. those are the hints showing the woman is fertile, able to give birth and raise a child.

Of course, all of these are personal theories.

Oh, yes. Absolutely. But unless there's an official stance on "plump = sexy" most players won't RP finding plump attractive, or even play plump characters to begin with. I completely agree that it makes sense considering Zalanthan culture and resource starvation, but it's only something we've liked in theory and have never put into practice.

Yeah, I remember hearing something about that in history class. Back in harsher times (probably even up til the early 1900s) fat was sexy for exactly that reason. A kings daughter was likely a +sized woman because she had the luxury of eating and doing nothing all day. Men swarmed.  :-\

On the other side, in a land like Zalanthas (which is arguably far more dangerous than medieval Rome, more because of scrab, mekillot, giant spiders, and other deadly wild life, than because of the equally tyrannical rulers, criminals, and criminal rulers) being obese could be unattractive because the person would be nearly defenseless. That being said, I could definitely see "pleasantly plump" being hawt. But this is solely up to the discretion of the player - in the style of that old argument about how a weather-worn, battle-scarred warrior was sexier than an F-me.

Back to the original, original argument: LEAVE. Haha. I'm a huge advocate of this. If you walked into a biker bar (the IRL version of the Gaj), sat down, and immediately the patrons started hitting on you, saying shit like; "Hey babe, how bout you suck me off in the bathroom?" "I got a hundred bucks, we can go out back." "Hey, Pete, get my zip-ties, we got a looker here!" "I bet you could suck the chrome off a trailer hitch."  How would you react?

Would you go to a town meeting and say "Hey, lets get  city ordinance that sex is a sensitive and undiscussable topic in public. People shouldn't be overly horny ever. And a person can't think about sex every 7 seconds (which is the IRL scientifically proven standard for men) and still be sane, functioning, contributing members of a society!"  -- Essentially, I feel this would be the IRL equivalent of what's being done here.

HOWEVER, there are IC ways to settle other players entirely, understandably, realistic portrayals of their whore-bag PCs:[/b]

1) Ask them IC to stop. (I guess you could ask them OOC too. It seems wrong to me, but then I'm on the "It ain't broke, don't fix it" end of this argument, so I'll leave that up for discussion)

2) Slip the nearby guy with the Militia patch 50 sid to settle 'dem boys down. (Equivalent of calling the fuzz IRL.) ((Oh-oh, and for the record it doesn't have to be a Private or above, as seems to be a common misconception. Though a recruit isn't crim-code impervious, his superiors will stand by his decision 90% of the time, if it's either a) realistic, or b) coin involved. I've had plenty of bynners get their faces stomped in by a templar for lipping off to my recruits before. - Off topic, but I just wanted to state it.))

3) Find a BIGGER guy. If the Byn is giving you trouble, ASK their Sergeant to put them on the leash, PAY their sergeant to put them on a leash, or use your apparent sex appeal to FLIRT their sergeant until he thinks he stands a chance of getting some if he puts them on a leash. Give him a kiss on the cheek afterwards. ;)  Same goes with anyone who looks capable of pounding the perverts heads in.  Generally, by time a player is strong enough to tromp everyone in sight, they've given up on the blatant sexual advances of their inferiors, whether it's because they got a mate of their own, they have prestige that can't afford them the embarrassment, because at this point the women are harassing them, or cause they've made it past the 10 day mark and they've decided that now they should probably do something productive with their players.   ---    In a nutshell, show the little boys what a real man looks like.  :o

4) LEAVE. If you were looking for a drink - go to another bar. If you were looking to meet up with someone - find their mind and have them meet you at another bar. If you were having an interesting conversation prior to - ask the other person if they'd like to go to another bar.


If people wanna play horny, that's their right. You've met horn-dogs, and creepy men IRL, now you'll meet them IG. I think the answer lies in dealing with it as you would realistically.

Except, that wasn't the OPs concern. To reiterate again..this time using your example:

A delicate noble's female aide, accompanied by a scarred, flea-bitten female militia sergeant and a muscular, barrel-chested, long-legged female Kurac Agent all walk into the gaj, in search of potential recruits. Immediately, three of the male PCs in there, hit on each of the three females who just walked in. They don't care that one of them is not only hideous and scarred, but that she is ALSO the local police. They don't care that one of them is the Agent who can decide whether or not their character ever gets to pay a reasonable price for spice again. They don't care that the noble's aide is someone of such significant influence that she can complain to her militia companion and he would have the males arrested, tossed in jail, and left to die of thirst and hunger.

All they care about, is that all three are female PCs. What's worse, is that these three do this for every female who walks into the bar. Even worse, they do it to every female everywhere, they don't care if it's in a bar or not. They'll do it in the market when they're shopping for armor. They'll do it outside Trader's, they'll do it in the middle of the Gith War and interrupt the battle to ask a female conscriptee if she wants to get laid.

This is using your example, to point out the extreme, of what the issue is -perceived- to be. Not just that males get horny. No one CARES that males get horny. What people are caring about, is that some people are not taking into consideration the fact that "JUST BECAUSE IT IS A FEMALE DOESN"T MEAN YOUR CHARACTER IS REQUIRED TO HAVE *edited to add*: immediate, active, and public SEXUAL INTEREST IN IT."

Quote from: Marauder Moe on July 31, 2009, 10:44:47 AM

Quote from: Lizzie on July 31, 2009, 10:30:09 AMthe OOC assumption that it is ICly appropriate to assume that female PCs are all whores, and that it's okay to use that term in a derogatory way, even though in Zalanthas the profession isn't a derogatory profession.

True, however, if someone makes an assumption that your character is a whore there is also a burden on you to not roleplay offense even thought your own personal cultural reaction is to be offended.

??? Huh?

I've always found the idea that the label "whore" is a compliment, or at least not insulting, to be perplexing. Should "dung sweeper" also be taken as high praise?  ;)

Granted, I don't consider it automatically insulting. Sure, prostitution is perfectly legal in Zalanthas. It covers the spectrum all the way from noble's perfumed plaything down to two-sid gutter skank. If you're sitting in the Gaj and this comes up, guess which end of the continuum they're talking about? So it all depends on context.

In game, when I've overheard people use it, there have been two common themes: the target was invariably female, and the context suggested that the intent was to belittle her. Admittedly, that's just anecdotal experience.

I don't really buy into the idea that the term "whore" has any particular connotation of "attractive" to the typical Zalanthan.

QuoteThere seems to be a growing trend (at least in the south) to treat every female character as a potential whore.

QuoteBack to the original, original argument: LEAVE. Haha. I'm a huge advocate of this. If you walked into a biker bar (the IRL version of the Gaj), sat down, and immediately the patrons started hitting on you, saying shit like; "Hey babe, how bout you suck me off in the bathroom?" "I got a hundred bucks, we can go out back." "Hey, Pete, get my zip-ties, we got a looker here!" "I bet you could suck the chrome off a trailer hitch."  How would you react?

Damn, should've read before I posted. Missed that one by a mile.  8)

QuoteThey don't care that one of them is not only hideous and scarred, but that she is ALSO the local police. They don't care that one of them is the Agent who can decide whether or not their character ever gets to pay a reasonable price for spice again. They don't care that the noble's aide is someone of such significant influence that she can complain to her militia companion and he would have the males arrested, tossed in jail, and left to die of thirst and hunger.

All they care about, is that all three are female PCs. What's worse, is that these three do this for every female who walks into the bar. Even worse, they do it to every female everywhere, they don't care if it's in a bar or not. They'll do it in the market when they're shopping for armor. They'll do it outside Trader's, they'll do it in the middle of the Gith War and interrupt the battle to ask a female conscriptee if she wants to get laid.

With all due respect, have you ever actually played this game?

QuoteThis is using your example, to point out the extreme, of what the issue is -perceived- to be.

I'll start believing that this post isn't about the EXTREMELY crude behavioral antics of horned up low-life PCs the minute I see a threat titled: "Will men please stop complimenting my PC and buying her drinks?" (No, I'm not talking about "whore" as if it were a compliment. I mean casual, harmless ones that gentlemanly - for lack of a better word - PCs throw a girl's way when they're trying to work their mojo.  ie: "I love that earring." "You have the most mesmerizing eyes." "Nice shoes, wanna fuck?" *snicker* Not the last one, if you couldn't tell.)

Quote from Arm.org / introductory info / overview

Quote# Three, sometimes people are nasty. There are no rules against being mean to others that you meet, be it cheating, stealing, killing, swindling, or otherwise making a fool out of them as long as the meanness is in-character (IC).
# Four, complaints of unfairness on the part of other players will not be given an audience. If you think another character was mean to you, you're most likely right. 

Holy crap guys, does this or does this not practically scream "Shit happens, deal with it IC?"  Geeze, good thing I gave some realistic and not extremely over-done to the point of being blatantly sarcasm, CONSTRUCTIVE examples in my last post of precisely how one might do so!


Aaaand, one more quote, though it is off topic:

QuoteStraw man. This is the logical fallacy of refuting a caricatured or extreme version of somebody's argument, rather than the actual argument they've made. Often this fallacy involves putting words into somebody's mouth by saying they've made arguments they haven't actually made, in which case the straw man argument is a veiled version of argumentum ad logicam.

:-*

Quote from: Eyeball on July 25, 2009, 07:57:35 PM
There seems to be a growing trend (at least in the south) to treat every female character as a potential whore. Now, yes, there's no shame in Zalanthas in being a whore, but the whores do tend to advertise themselves. Also, there's a growing trend to openly talk of wanting sex with a female character, to her face, and baldly inviting them into the sack without even preliminaries. Or even talk amongst male characters of raping a female character, sometimes in front of other female characters.

Does this make female players uncomfortable?

I do not see a such a trend. However, if it was a trend, then yes,  it would make me uncomfortable. If I felt it was a player's choice to use the game as an excuse to harass female players, by assuming that the majority of female PCs were played by females, I would not only object, but I would report it to the staff. I rarely get that impression of other players, thankfully.

Quote from: Lizzie on August 01, 2009, 12:16:12 PM

A delicate noble's female aide, accompanied by a scarred, flea-bitten female militia sergeant and a muscular, barrel-chested, long-legged female Kurac Agent all walk into the gaj, in search of potential recruits. Immediately, three of the male PCs in there, hit on each of the three females who just walked in. They don't care that one of them is not only hideous and scarred, but that she is ALSO the local police. They don't care that one of them is the Agent who can decide whether or not their character ever gets to pay a reasonable price for spice again. They don't care that the noble's aide is someone of such significant influence that she can complain to her militia companion and he would have the males arrested, tossed in jail, and left to die of thirst and hunger.

All they care about, is that all three are female PCs.

Actually...they might be doing it because:
a) She might be hideous and scarred but she -is- local police and I might get favorable treatment by putting in some "extra effort" to please her.
b) One of them -is- an Agent and she might hook me up with spice if I "go the extra mile".
c) That noble's aid -is- someone of significant influence and he can get favors by "working under the table".

Because there just might be other reasons for them to do so that makes it even more appealing than just a piece of ass.

Except JHunter, you're missing the point (or maybe intentionally twisting it like some others have done in this thread).

The point isn't that some males are offering themselves as playthings to potentially influential females. The point is that the males are expecting these potentially influential females to offer themselves as potential whores. Unemployed sid-miners, generic commoner "Just showed up from the Hall of Kings and haven't even changed to a decent pair of boots yet" grebbers..are expecting that it's acceptable to treat female characters as sexual objects- to the -exclusion- of other possible options. They're also doing this, while assuming that they won't get in trouble, or insult someone, by treating *all* women who show up, as personal playthings. Even if the women are potential bosses, potential ass-kickers, potential spice suppliers.

The point is that your perception of the same situation is the difference. It does not mean that you are right and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong. From my perception, those other reasons I listed could perfectly well be the case. Just because your perception doesn't allow you to see it from those points of view, it does not mean that they are wrong or off base. I think anyone who has a problem with it is letting RL views on the matter twist their perception of the situation. I've seen female characters do the same to male characters throughout the years as well.

Where is all this crazy tavern-fuckin rapefest shit going down at because I've been missing it for awhile... it seems like this is being blown up a bit bigger than it has EVER been. I still see nearly all of this being handled ic.

I've seen a lot of the flirting go on back and forth between BOTH sexes, males in the lead and I'm sure that's a bit of reality rubbing off on the game, girls playing reserved 'come get me' pc's also being a bit of our reality rubbing off on the game. Acting as though being hit on in a bar is out of line though?

I wish this thread would die already..

Quote from: Majikal on August 02, 2009, 02:03:42 PM
Where is all this crazy tavern-fuckin rapefest shit going down at because I've been missing it for awhile...

I wish this thread would die already..

I wish this thread would die as well. Nothing constructive has been said in quite a while.

Quote from: staggerlee on July 28, 2009, 02:17:19 PM
The Millennium Falcon could totally beat the Starship Enterprise in a fight.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on August 02, 2009, 02:20:29 PM
I wish this thread would die as well. Nothing constructive has been said in quite a while.

+1

Okay so, I'm not sure if it's brought up in this thread, I'm too lazy to read through 6 pages of posts. If it is, then I'm sorry, and you can go ahead and ignore this post.

I'm halfway through the first page of the posts, and it seems to me that most of it is focused on city based. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think asking, demanding, and even rape is based more on culture. While it probably isn't normal for a city based to get raped or dominated, sex in, let's say, Red Fang is more forced and uh, violent.

I'm a girl, and I've played a male character that treated girls like whores, guilty as charged. It didn't mean that I have a fetish for things like that. It just means that my character's sexual orientation was straight, he's an asshole, and he liked to hit on girls the wrong way, and most of it stems from his background. It's his personality, though that doesn't necessarily makes him stupid. He would refrain from lewdly checking out a hot templar, though he would probably think said templar's hot, and then immediately correct himself in fear the templar would eat his brainz.

What I mean to say is that, though it may seem to the PC oocly that a character acts like a potential rapist/stalker/etc, it doesn't necessarily mean that he is, given background, personality quirks, etc. For all you know, he's probably just likes to talk big and in reality, he can't get it up. As a player, you are only given a one dimensional view on another character, until you've spent more time with him or her, and divulged more background/personality quirks/etc from said character.

And this is my take to some of the earlier posts, sorry if the topic change seem a little abrupt.

Locking on request. The thread has served it's poll purpose.