Taken from Random Tiny Wants:
I think some sort of "cover" command would be cool. See, I was faced with a situation a little while back...
Arrows were incoming from some baddies a room away. The desc of the room (if I remember correctly) made clear that there'd be a lot of rubble or old buildings lying around. Ruins, anyway. I wish my character could have taken cover behind a rock instead of standing there getting shot like a dumbass. Best I could do was emote my way around it, and emote about the unfortunate failure of it.
Before someone says "use hide!", perfectly concealing yourself is not the same as taking simple cover behind a rock to avoid arrows coming from the north.
I figure it'd look like:
>cover n
You search for a spot to take cover.
You attempt to take cover from incoming projectiles from the north.
And then your ldesc would change so that someone looking in would realize what you have done and maybe try to outmaneuver you. I figure that projectiles coming from a direction that you -aren't- taking cover from would get a bonus or something. Also, it'd put you at a slight disadvantage for melee fighting -- somewhere between sit and stand. And melee combat would take you out of cover... And why not returning fire, too? I don't know... just throwing this out there.
Take cover!
>rem shield
>ep shield
>em gets behind ~shield, and starts muttering to Tektolnes.
Quote from: Zoltan on June 22, 2009, 02:39:52 PM
I think some sort of "cover" command would be cool. See, I was faced with a situation a little while back...
I have a simpler (but less complete) solution:
- Give everyone a low-capped "hide" skill, and make rubble-filled, extra-hideable rooms add a huge bonus.
- Optionally, make it more difficult to shoot "strange shadows" (folks under partial cover).
Also, regarding shield_use:
- A decent antiprojectile bonus for "etwo shield."
Yeah I agree with the shield bit, if you have a huge wooden shield, and you're focusing on hiding behind it and you can see where the arrows are coming from, it really doesn't take a skilled person to use it successfully.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on June 22, 2009, 03:13:53 PM
Also, regarding shield_use:
- A decent antiprojectile bonus for "etwo shield."
This makes alot of sense and has a lot of potential for fun.
Quote from: Majikal on June 22, 2009, 03:41:11 PM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on June 22, 2009, 03:13:53 PM
Also, regarding shield_use:
- A decent antiprojectile bonus for "etwo shield."
This makes alot of sense and has a lot of potential for fun.
Amen.
Specifically, I think most people should be able to substantially cut their chances of being hit if they "etwo" any of the the largest shields.
Needs some penalties, obviously... perhaps a chance of not noticing someone entering the room?
I think that shield idea is pretty cool. I don't really like the hide one. Hiding is using concealment. Concealment will usually not stop projectiles. I want to be able to take good cover from arrows/spears in an archway and then get snuck up on, dang it. *pouts*
Again, the shield one is pretty cool, simple, and would be awesome if not already implemented.
Quote from: Zoltan on June 22, 2009, 04:26:39 PM
I think that shield idea is pretty cool. I don't really like the hide one. Hiding is using concealment. Concealment will usually not stop projectiles. I want to be able to take good cover from arrows/spears in an archway and then get snuck up on, dang it. *pouts*
Again, the shield one is pretty cool, simple, and would be awesome if not already implemented.
I won't go into details, but there is already handling for ranged attacks and shields, and specifically how you hold your shield among other options that can improve your chances that are similar to what you're asking for here.
*DISCLAIMER* That is not to say that the original post doesn't have merit. Even the idea of being able to go prone to help avoid fire, without having debris would be useful.
Having experienced maxed (warrior) shield use vs. archery, I have to say, it's pretty useless.
Apparently, the only thing it will block is an arrow shot by a complete newb.
Might it be simple enough to just give bonuses against arrows while sitting or lying down?
Quote from: Synthesis on June 22, 2009, 05:39:28 PM
Having experienced maxed (warrior) shield use vs. archery, I have to say, it's pretty useless.
Apparently, the only thing it will block is an arrow shot by a complete newb.
Thanks again, defense nerf.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on June 22, 2009, 07:01:41 PM
Might it be simple enough to just give bonuses against arrows while sitting or lying down?
There's an idea. Leaves you vulnerable to melee, too.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on June 22, 2009, 07:01:41 PM
Might it be simple enough to just give bonuses against arrows while sitting or lying down?
I don't know if the code can do this easily, considering it does the exact opposite right now.
OR!
We could get rid of the defense nerf so that shields actually block arrows again! Then that'd save us all this silly coding!
Having never experienced the defense buff, I don't really know what this nerf has done, But anything that keeps PC lives up as an average I really want.
Did NPC's receive the same nerf to defense?
Quote from: Eloran on June 22, 2009, 07:18:23 PM
OR!
We could get rid of the defense nerf so that shields actually block arrows again! Then that'd save us all this silly coding!
the 'nerf' of which you speak only affected melée, not ranged attacks, beyond that it only affected parry in melée, not shield use. Which has given near the same capabilities at defense as pre-'nerf'.
There are other ways to increase your chances of blocking an arrow, the suggested etwoing the shield is but one of them. I do like the idea of decreasing chance of hit with sitting/resting/sleeping when being shot at from a distance
Have you checked this recently Morg?
I mean, since the last shield use overhall, I've NEVER seen a projectile blocked unless the PC had the parry skill and had the skill pretty high. And they had the same odds of swiping the projectile with the shield as they did with a dagger.
Quote from: X-D on June 22, 2009, 07:47:55 PM
Have you checked this recently Morg?
I mean, since the last shield use overhall, I've NEVER seen a projectile blocked unless the PC had the parry skill and had the skill pretty high. And they had the same odds of swiping the projectile with the shield as they did with a dagger.
I reviewed the code this afternoon, but I willLokik it over again when I get a chance and run some tests
I've seen high-skill warriors block arrows with shields and parrying fairly regularly. What have you folks been doing wrong?
Quote from: Dalmeth on June 22, 2009, 08:41:31 PM
I've seen high-skill warriors block arrows with shields and parrying fairly regularly. What have you folks been doing wrong?
I think the argument is that parry, not shield_use, might be what's doing all the work.
Quote from: Morgenes on June 22, 2009, 07:42:06 PM
I do like the idea of decreasing chance of hit with sitting/resting/sleeping when being shot at from a distance.
Let people shoot when sitting (I assume they can't now?), with a penalty for longbows and a bonus for crossbows. Epic archery battles ensue.
Quote from: Dalmeth on June 22, 2009, 08:41:31 PM
I've seen high-skill warriors block arrows with shields and parrying fairly regularly. What have you folks been doing wrong?
Yes, you can block almost every arrow shot by a newbie archer. Once someone gets above that newbie level of skill, shield use -and- parry seem to fail every time.
The problem with this is that the only arrows you really -need- to block are the ones shot by experienced archers, and really there's no good reason why an experienced archer should be better at penetrating a shield than anyone else.
Since the changes to parry vs. missiles, I've never successfully parried an arrow or thrown weapon, but I've blocked quite a few with the shield. However, these were all clearly fired by newbs.
This is the change I'd like to see: wielding a shield (with high skill) should block every arrow shot that would've struck the neck, body, arms, hand, or waist locations. If the arrow was destined for the head, leg, or foot, it should strike as normal, with perhaps a last chance save vs. the parry skill.
However! I think this should only work against missiles being fired from a single direction. I'd like to see it work like this:
> block n
You begin blocking projectiles coming from the north.
>
An obsidian-headed sheaf arrow flies in from the north and deflects off your shield.
>
An obsidian-headed sheaf arrow flies in from the north, you swipe at it with your bone longsword, but miss!
An obsidian-headed sheaf arrow strikes you in the leg.
>
An obsidian-headed sheaf arrow flies in from the east, you swipe at it with your bone longsword, but miss!
An obsidian-headed sheaf arrow strikes you in the body.
>
An obsidian-headed sheaf arrow flies in from the west, you swipe at it with your bone longsword and knock it out of the air.This way, archers could get their BOOM HEADSHOT, but everyone else wouldn't be stuck wondering about these magick missiles that are somehow bending around their shield. It would also maintain the advantage of having multiple archers flanking a single target.
At the same time, I'd like to see some command for actively evading arrows, maybe something that would cost stamina per use. For example:
Stamina: 120> evade
You begin evasive maneuvers.
Stamina: 120>
An obsidian-headed sheaf arrow flies in from the north, but you hit the ground, ducking beneath it!
Stamina: 115>
An obsidian-headed sheaf arrow flies in from the north, but you narrowly roll out of the way.
Stamina: 110>
An obsidian-headed sheaf arrow flies in from the north, but deflects off your shield.
Stamina: 110>
An obsidian-headed sheaf arrow flies in from the north, and you swipe at it with your bone longsword, but miss!
An obsidian-headed sheaf arrow strikes you in the leg.
Stamina: 110>
An obsidian-headed sheaf arrow flies in from the north, but you narrowly roll out of the way.
Stamina: 105>Your ability to evade arrows actively like this would be based on your base defense skill vs. the archer's archery skill. You'd still have the base ability to block with a shield or parry. While actively evading arrows, your ability to attack an opponent would be seriously penalized. (I would suggest that this take the form of a severely decreased attack speed, rather than attack skill.) Note: I don't think you should be able to both "block" and "evade" at the same time...you should have to pick whichever one suits the occasion.
This evasion could actually be extended to melee combat, as well. You could begin evading, which would dramatically increase your ability to dodge, at the cost of putting your attack speed down to practically nil, and losing stamina after every successful dodging attempt.
This sort of system would be the first step toward a combat stance, and would actually be very useful for training and for group combat tactics.
Quote from: Eloran on June 22, 2009, 07:18:23 PM
OR!
We could get rid of the defense nerf so that shields actually block arrows again! Then that'd save us all this silly coding!
I don't think being a douche gets anything done.
I like Synthesis' block idea. In addition to this, if you want to be covered from different directions, people who are following/guarding you could block the other directions, and in doing so could form a sort of block in which folks would be relatively safe from arrows.
Quote from: elvenchipmunk on June 22, 2009, 09:47:55 PM
I like Synthesis' block idea. In addition to this, if you want to be covered from different directions, people who are following/guarding you could block the other directions, and in doing so could form a sort of block in which folks would be relatively safe from arrows.
Combine it with guard: if you "block north" and "guard merchant," you will block projectiles from the north that are coming at you or the merchant.
Quote from: Synthesis on June 22, 2009, 09:51:59 PM
Quote from: elvenchipmunk on June 22, 2009, 09:47:55 PM
I like Synthesis' block idea. In addition to this, if you want to be covered from different directions, people who are following/guarding you could block the other directions, and in doing so could form a sort of block in which folks would be relatively safe from arrows.
Combine it with guard: if you "block north" and "guard merchant," you will block projectiles from the north that are coming at you or the merchant.
Thumbs up.
Quote from: X-D on June 22, 2009, 07:47:55 PM
Have you checked this recently Morg?
I mean, since the last shield use overhall, I've NEVER seen a projectile blocked unless the PC had the parry skill and had the skill pretty high. And they had the same odds of swiping the projectile with the shield as they did with a dagger.
Looking at the code, parrying missile weapons should only be the purvey of true masters of parrying.
Shield use is something that anybody can do, and there are things you can do to improve your odds, as I've said before. I've double checked and tested, even against a master archer from a room a way, a master of shield use using their shield as defensively as possible and being as aware of the archer as possible is able to stop the majority of the arrows coming from the archer.
IMO, the parry/shield use portion of missile weapons is working just fine.
I agree with Morgenes on this one, having been on the wrong end of missle fire lately. A character with a decent shield skill is very, very hard to strike with an arrow, especially if they are aware of the attacks. And that was just in the off hand.
Lol, are you guys using proper arrow-blocking shields or the tiny 200-sid ones?
Realistically, you shouldn't be able to parry an arrow with a sword at all. Unless you're really lucky, and even then it should strike your hand instead of your head and such. I dare someone to find a RL military tactic where soldiers are trained to block arrows with a sword ;)
Quote from: Morgenes on June 22, 2009, 10:38:00 PM
Quote from: X-D on June 22, 2009, 07:47:55 PM
Have you checked this recently Morg?
I mean, since the last shield use overhall, I've NEVER seen a projectile blocked unless the PC had the parry skill and had the skill pretty high. And they had the same odds of swiping the projectile with the shield as they did with a dagger.
Looking at the code, parrying missile weapons should only be the purvey of true masters of parrying.
Shield use is something that anybody can do, and there are things you can do to improve your odds, as I've said before. I've double checked and tested, even against a master archer from a room a way, a master of shield use using their shield as defensively as possible and being as aware of the archer as possible is able to stop the majority of the arrows coming from the archer.
IMO, the parry/shield use portion of missile weapons is working just fine.
Morg,
Is it currently possible to block missile weapons being fired at the person you are guarding? I've been told that the code allows for this, but I can't say I've ever seen it happen, despite trying often.
IF the watch command isn't already affecting how good you are at blocking arrows, it should be.
BACK TO THE ORIGINAL IDEA AT HAND!
I would love to be able to hunker down on the north side of a boulder while archers are flinging missles from the south.
Quote from: Fathi on June 23, 2009, 04:10:05 AM
Quote from: Morgenes on June 22, 2009, 10:38:00 PM
Quote from: X-D on June 22, 2009, 07:47:55 PM
Have you checked this recently Morg?
I mean, since the last shield use overhall, I've NEVER seen a projectile blocked unless the PC had the parry skill and had the skill pretty high. And they had the same odds of swiping the projectile with the shield as they did with a dagger.
Looking at the code, parrying missile weapons should only be the purvey of true masters of parrying.
Shield use is something that anybody can do, and there are things you can do to improve your odds, as I've said before. I've double checked and tested, even against a master archer from a room a way, a master of shield use using their shield as defensively as possible and being as aware of the archer as possible is able to stop the majority of the arrows coming from the archer.
IMO, the parry/shield use portion of missile weapons is working just fine.
Morg,
Is it currently possible to block missile weapons being fired at the person you are guarding? I've been told that the code allows for this, but I can't say I've ever seen it happen, despite trying often.
I don't see anything that would give guards a chance to block missile fire for the person they're guarding, although I agree that's a good idea.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 23, 2009, 05:17:02 AM
IF the watch command isn't already affecting how good you are at blocking arrows, it should be.
Find out IC, although I gave hints above that might lead you to that idea.
Quote from: Morgenes...and being as aware of the archer as possible...
Oh.
Right.
Quote from: SMuz on June 23, 2009, 02:53:37 AM
Realistically, you shouldn't be able to parry an arrow with a sword at all. Unless you're really lucky, and even then it should strike your hand instead of your head and such. I dare someone to find a RL military tactic where soldiers are trained to block arrows with a sword ;)
LOL ARAGORN DID IT