I guess any details are IC, but it must be hard on the newer players.
wut?
Finding/keeping a PC leader?
And enough PCs on at one time to actually go on contracts?
I've seen several Bynners around recently, so I don't think the clan is empty...?
Sarges are a bit hard to come by, probably is the complaint.
Dude, it can easily take a week to get into a clan. There's maybe a max of 3 PCs that can initiate you into a clan, per clan. If the leaders are hard to come by, yeah it sucks. But understand the difference between IG and IRL. IG there are 100 people that could get you into any clan (most of them not being coded), and they live, breathe, and sweat for their clan. IRL, people need time to socialize, get stuff straightened out at work, and get laid. Just doesn't work well with Arm, and anyone who choses arm over IRL needs to prioritize.
Tough it out. If you absolutely must be in the clan, and haven't found a PC to get you in after an IRL week, then I'd recommend you send an email to the clan leaders and set up a time and day you can meet them with an animated NPC to get yourself inducted. Not the best way, but functional.
(So long as no one tries to PK you for being a spy. Characters are very smart in game. They know that no other Sargeant, Lieutenant, or even Captain has any desire to recruit except theif Sarge/Lt/Cpt'n. They will not be fooled. Speaking from experience. ;) )
Put it this way, the Byn has always been about taking most anyone and filtering them out as Runners. They don't really even care about Runners. If they don't make the grade, they don't make Trooper. A lot of them don't even want to, they just want the training. It's why they're about the only clan characters have to pay to get into.
If they start getting selective about admitting people as Runners though, where does it leave new players that don't have a clue?
Uuumm... Yeah, this is way to IC, but I can tell you either:
a) Their full up. Wait til the next time they try and ride somewhere near the Shield Wall. The bloodshed will be great.
b) It was just the Sarge being a dill-hole.
or
c) Runners like to fuck with grey-eyed people?
Quote from: Eyeball on May 21, 2009, 11:59:55 PM
Put it this way, the Byn has always been about taking most anyone and filtering them out as Runners. if they don't make the grade, they don't make Trooper. A lot of them don't even want to, they just want the training.
If they start getting selective about admitting people as Runners though, where does it leave new players that don't have a clue?
One thing to keep in mind is that you don't always know the whole story. It can be extremely frustrating, but sometimes there are staff-imposed limits on how many people a clan can hire and they
have to be selective. It doesn't make much IC sense and it's a pain in the ass--and it's not necessarily what's happening to you--but rather than assuming the clan is "failing", maybe try sending off an email to the T'Zai Byn staff? I bet they'd be willing to help.
I blame the new sergeants. Handle it IC? OOCly, part of the 'screening' would recruit the noobs, and kick out the veterans who are acting as bums. A lot of other clans do the same thing, accept clueless newbies who make an IC effort. At least that's what I hope they're doing now.
Derailing my own thread (hopefully only temporarily), it's clear that Byn Sergeants get burnt out quickly.
I think the structure needs to be reorganized. Throw the Runners all into one big lump and appoint a training instructor (could be a Trooper made "Corporal" temporarily, could be a Sergeant). Put the rest of the Troopers and Sergeant(s) into one or more active units.
Rotate the training instructor from the pool of Troopers and Sergeants.
That way, being a Sergeant mostly would be about getting and filling contracts, without getting burnt out from training demands. And the number of Runners shouldn't be an issue since no one has to bear the load until they break.
The problem with that is that there will never be enough people around to fill all the billets that need to be filled.
The Sergeant has to play the part of instructor/recruiter/expedition leader because usually he's the -only- PC around who has the skills and experience to do it. It's pretty rare (from my experience) for there to be more than 1 ACTIVE Sergeant in the Byn at any time. (I've been in several times when there were two or more Sergeants, but typically 1 does 80% of the work.)
The Byn has worked for YEARS, though. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Oh, and Sergeants can recruit whoever the hell they want. If they don't like 'rinthers, elves, breeds, dwarves, or muties, suck it up and deal with it. You might consider yourself lucky not to be hired: if I was a Sergeant and I didn't like 'rinthers, I'd hire them on then take them out to feed the Drov beetles.
:)
Quote from: Synthesis on May 22, 2009, 12:29:40 AM
The problem with that is that there will never be enough people around to fill all the billets that need to be filled.
The minimum you'd need is one Sergeant and one Trooper to make this scheme work. That doesn't sound unreasonable.
Quote
The Sergeant has to play the part of instructor/recruiter/expedition leader because usually he's the -only- PC around who has the skills and experience to do it. It's pretty rare (from my experience) for there to be more than 1 ACTIVE Sergeant in the Byn at any time. (I've been in several times when there were two or more Sergeants, but typically 1 does 80% of the work.)
It doesn't matter if Sergeant can't swing a sword to save his life. Face it, most of the training is Runner vs. Runner. What's needed is an enforcer of discipline, organizer, and some logistical support (e.g. issue water when it's desperately needed). A single training instructor, even the schlubbiest Trooper, could handle that.
Quote
The Byn has worked for YEARS, though. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I'd say if it's not exactly broke, it's not working as well as one would hope either.
Quote
Oh, and Sergeants can recruit whoever the hell they want. If they don't like 'rinthers, elves, breeds, dwarves, or muties, suck it up and deal with it. You might consider yourself lucky not to be hired: if I was a Sergeant and I didn't like 'rinthers, I'd hire them on then take them out to feed the Drov beetles.
This seems to be the problem, doesn't it. Past Sergeants weren't so exclusive. Something's wrong when even able-bodied combat-skilled human characters with their shit together can't get in.
Maybe some former Byn Sergeants would like to comment here?
Playing "game babysitter" for the n00b, twink and douche bag population can get pretty old, pretty quick for a sergeant. I don't blame them for being more selective. Better 1-2 good players who keep your hours then 10 idiots who will be dead from wandering in the rinth (or other places...I am one of these douche bags...) in a week.
Byn Sergeant is a very tough role to fill. I know, as my very first, wide-eyed-noob character was one. As Synthesis said, often times in the Byn the brunt of the "work" load falls on one experienced PC. There is nothing wrong with this: ICly, that's what a Byn Sarge does. Here are my two 'sids...
1. The Byn (rightly so in my opinion) has the reputation of being a real noob-friendly clan. The Byn tries to scoop up the new players when it can, often bending over backwards to do so. This is good. However...
2. After getting like a dozen new players in the clan, you actually want to interact with them and find fun stuff for them to do! This invariably leads to some potential recruits being passed over. It's a balancing act, and I'm afraid it can be frustrating for all sides from time to time (in my experience, being in a clan with a mostly-absent leader totally sucks compared to not getting into the clan). In short, when you already have a ton of players, it's time to -play-. Recruiting/being available for recruiting/acclimating a new player can be very, very time-consuming and burn out inducing.
3. A Byn sergeant can be as "exclusive" (ICly) as he/she damn well pleases; just like any other recruiter in the game. If it's for some reason a problem, they'd likely be spoken to ICly about it by their superiors, or probably get a "wtf dude, hire some more clannies!!!" email from the clan imm.
4. If recruitment is ever a big problem, just wish up to get interviewed for the Byn by a staff-animated NPC. I've seen this happen before (it's best to try going through a PC first, though, for various reasons).
5. RL stuff happens, and sometimes these leader PC players have to take a break. There's no way around that.
6. This probably doesn't need to even be said, but ICly, sometimes a Byn Sarge is just a total dick. Sometimes they're incompetent.
What J-Mord said.
Being a Byn Sergeant is probably the most difficult role, imo. Not only are you running a clan, but you're trying to fit the needs of players new and old, while training them, and finding work for them. The only way the Byn makes money is if they have contracts. This means PCs need to -hire- the Byn in order for anyone to make any coins. And when mercenaries aren't making any coins, they tend to get cranky. And guess who has to deal with everyone's problems? The Sergeants. In my experience, playing as a Sergeant runs very close to having a second job. This may be why you see so many Byn Sergeants disappear, but that could also have to do with, you know, their EXTREMELY HIGH RISK job.
The Byn has always had its ups and downs, in player population, and the amount of action it sees.
Is it failing? Not a chance.
Quote
Playing "game babysitter" for the n00b, twink and douche bag population can get pretty old, pretty quick for a sergeant. I don't blame them for being more selective. Better 1-2 good players who keep your hours then 10 idiots who will be dead from wandering in the rinth (or other places...I am one of these douche bags...) in a week.
Quote
Oh, and Sergeants can recruit whoever the hell they want. If they don't like 'rinthers, elves, breeds, dwarves, or muties, suck it up and deal with it. You might consider yourself lucky not to be hired: if I was a Sergeant and I didn't like 'rinthers, I'd hire them on then take them out to feed the Drov beetles.
Quote
3. A Byn sergeant can be as "exclusive" (ICly) as he/she damn well pleases; just like any other recruiter in the game. If it's for some reason a problem, they'd likely be spoken to ICly about it by their superiors, or probably get a "wtf dude, hire some more clannies!!!" email from the clan imm.
Ok, the players have spoken. Let's declare the old Byn motto of "give us your n00bies, your untrained, your wet-behind-the-ears" as dead and adjust our expectations accordingly. 8)
Quote from: Eyeball on May 22, 2009, 12:59:00 AM
Quote
Playing "game babysitter" for the n00b, twink and douche bag population can get pretty old, pretty quick for a sergeant. I don't blame them for being more selective. Better 1-2 good players who keep your hours then 10 idiots who will be dead from wandering in the rinth (or other places...I am one of these douche bags...) in a week.
Quote
Oh, and Sergeants can recruit whoever the hell they want. If they don't like 'rinthers, elves, breeds, dwarves, or muties, suck it up and deal with it. You might consider yourself lucky not to be hired: if I was a Sergeant and I didn't like 'rinthers, I'd hire them on then take them out to feed the Drov beetles.
Quote
3. A Byn sergeant can be as "exclusive" (ICly) as he/she damn well pleases; just like any other recruiter in the game. If it's for some reason a problem, they'd likely be spoken to ICly about it by their superiors, or probably get a "wtf dude, hire some more clannies!!!" email from the clan imm.
Ok, the players have spoken. Let's declare the old Byn motto of "give us your n00bies, your untrained, your wet-behind-the-ears" as dead and adjust our expectations accordingly. 8)
I'm not internet-savvy enough to post that cool "Picard Facepalm" pic, so I'll just have to settle for this: ::)
Not one of us is saying fuck off to the new players. Sometimes you just can't satisfy everyone, and though I -- and others I'm sure -- encourage Byn sergeants to recruit new players whenever possible, this can't always happen.
Not to turn this into a Rhyden/Jmord handjob festival but:
Quote from: Rhyden on May 22, 2009, 12:57:30 AM
Being a Byn Sergeant is probably the most difficult role, imo.
I would say the Byn Sarge and Templar are probably the two hardest things to play in terms of "second job-ness" with Byn sarge winning out because of a distinct lack of political power. Tripple that if you are a breed or an elf - good fucking luck.
On top of having all the OC responsibility of any other clan leader - No one gives Byn Sarge a stipend. He has to earn his buck.
He's meant to be the babysitter of the entire pc population, so not only does he need to earn everyone money but he also needs to OCly mentor monkey dicks while at the same time trying to maintain his air of hard-ass-ed-ness.
Not only that but he usually has a clan of fuck wits, and the one's that aren't fuckwits in RL are playing a fuckwit.
And he has to be in the Tavern every day recruiting new fuck wits.
And he has to keep all of the other fuck wits happy because after a year of stew and sparring they're all think they're fucking Thor and are ready to kill some shit. (This may sound harsh, but understand I include myself in this group.)
Very difficult. Every time I see an app for Byn Sarge I think about it, then decline.
Playing a Byn Sergeant is very difficult, but I don't think that's what this thread's actually about.
If you're having issues with the Byn, why not join up with another clan?
The Byn may have an OOC reputation as being the brown-clad newb-tutors, but in my experience, just about any clan will offer help to new players if they join up.
Kadius, Kurac, and Salarr are often hiring. I would recommend them over joining a city militia such as the AOD or the Sun Legions for a new player.
Welcome to Armageddon!
Also, if you did want to join the Byn and try your hand at rising through the ranks to become a Byn Sergeant to be the change you want to see, send the Byn staff (tzai_byn@armageddon.org) an email that you're interested in joining. Quite possibly there could be room for a Byn Sergeant app as well. You never know until you ask!
Quote from: Zoltan on May 22, 2009, 12:55:51 AM
3. A Byn sergeant can be as "exclusive" (ICly) as he/she damn well pleases; just like any other recruiter in the game.
Byn sergeants are people too, not stew vending machines. ;) If you think you're a perfect fit for the Byn but are rejected, be surprised and hurt
in-character, not out-of-character.
I have had several Byn Sarges. My Advice is this.
1) Hire anyone that wants to join. It creates all kinds of fun for EVERYONE in the clan
2) Take -everyone- on any contract, so long as they can ride they can go
3) Create your own Hiearchy setup. IE the second, third, forth etc in command
4) To get Contracts, You have to FIRST have an experienced group of CORE Bynners: That means
you wont be doing contracts for your first RL month or so if you do not have enough troopers
because as a sarge you need time away to put your name and face out there and find out who
needs what done, and you -can not- do that if you do not have other pcs who are able to train
the runners while you are out
5) As far as Discipline, it is a fucking mercenaries guild, not House Tor or Lyksae. So long as they listen
on contracts, let them act how they wish. If they want to skip out on Nekrete, they suffer the
consequences. If they want to act up on a contract, they suffer the IC consequences.
6) Re-Read #1. Remember the more you hire, the more fun for everyone.
On A side note, I remember when BYN graduations were RPTs in themselves, when Nobles would come
and take the best of the best from the byn and give them a shot with their house, and then you would
have to start your unit over again in the byn. This is what always constantly gave me something to do.
The cycle of Recruit, train, Contract, evaluate, graduate, start over. That is the way -I- -THINK- it
should be run.
I've often thought that players shouldn't be forced to log on for the need of other players, but I think that clans should have enough chiefs to keep someone on regular. If you're that guy who likes to play one day a week and is great when he plays, sure you could be a leader, but if I were running the clan I would be looking for that guy on 6 days a week pretty regular to be my goto guy.
Just my 2 cents,
Jarod
Quote from: brytta.leofa on May 22, 2009, 10:37:04 AM
Quote from: Zoltan on May 22, 2009, 12:55:51 AM
3. A Byn sergeant can be as "exclusive" (ICly) as he/she damn well pleases; just like any other recruiter in the game.
Byn sergeants are people too, not stew vending machines. ;) If you think you're a perfect fit for the Byn but are rejected, be surprised and hurt in-character, not out-of-character.
if any of my pcs got rejected from the byn for anything but being a magicker I think they'd never show their face in that city again. what a disgrace!
Quote from: Eyeball on May 21, 2009, 11:59:55 PM
Put it this way, the Byn has always been about taking most anyone and filtering them out as Runners. They don't really even care about Runners. If they don't make the grade, they don't make Trooper. A lot of them don't even want to, they just want the training. It's why they're about the only clan characters have to pay to get into.
If they start getting selective about admitting people as Runners though, where does it leave new players that don't have a clue?
It leaves them with an extensive and detailed (if not optimally organized) website filled with documentation. If they don't have "a clue" then they haven't read anything, and have only themselves to blame for not having a clue. It isn't the job of -anyone- to teach new players how to roleplay, or how to play Armageddon. Players do this because they -want- to. And conversely, they don't do it, because they don't want to. No one is obligated to teach new players, not even Byn Sergeants. Just like the staff, the players who help are volunteers. When people start expecting other players to help them, it becomes a chore, and one that players are more likely to avoid than embrace.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on May 22, 2009, 10:37:04 AM
Quote from: Zoltan on May 22, 2009, 12:55:51 AM
3. A Byn sergeant can be as "exclusive" (ICly) as he/she damn well pleases; just like any other recruiter in the game.
Byn sergeants are people too, not stew vending machines. ;) If you think you're a perfect fit for the Byn but are rejected, be surprised and hurt in-character, not out-of-character.
This isn't about my character, who is doing quite well, thanks. It's about new players' characters. If even the Byn won't take them, they're screwed, especially in the southlands.
Quote from: Lizzie on May 22, 2009, 01:13:10 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on May 21, 2009, 11:59:55 PM
Put it this way, the Byn has always been about taking most anyone and filtering them out as Runners. They don't really even care about Runners. If they don't make the grade, they don't make Trooper. A lot of them don't even want to, they just want the training. It's why they're about the only clan characters have to pay to get into.
If they start getting selective about admitting people as Runners though, where does it leave new players that don't have a clue?
It leaves them with an extensive and detailed (if not optimally organized) website filled with documentation. If they don't have "a clue" then they haven't read anything, and have only themselves to blame for not having a clue. It isn't the job of -anyone- to teach new players how to roleplay, or how to play Armageddon. Players do this because they -want- to. And conversely, they don't do it, because they don't want to. No one is obligated to teach new players, not even Byn Sergeants. Just like the staff, the players who help are volunteers. When people start expecting other players to help them, it becomes a chore, and one that players are more likely to avoid than embrace.
When new players post on the GDB, about the first thing people are always telling them is to join the Byn.
If this isn't good advice anymore, so be it, but at least it should be public knowledge.
Quote from: Eyeball on May 22, 2009, 03:28:32 PM
If this isn't good advice anymore, so be it, but at least it should be public knowledge.
Sounds like you had a bad experience.
It may have been your character, for IC reasons. Maybe you managed to create someone so offensive or otherwise aggravating that even a Byn sergeant didn't want to put up with you.
It may be the Sergeant. Maybe some innocuous quirk about your character triggered some deep-seated prejudice of some sort from the Sergeant. Or there was some other IC reason.
Assume there was an IC reason. Always.
If multiple beginners have this problem, then yes, something may need to be looked at. But I think the advice for beginners to try out the Byn (if they're militarily inclined) is still good and standard advice. One mishap with one character is frustrating for you, the player, but not indicative of a trend that reflects on a) you, b) the sergeant, or c) the clan.
Now you have the opportunity to play a character rejected by the Byn. Not everyone has that opportunity. Did it crush your character's self-esteem? Did it make your character want to join some other organization and then rub it the Byn's face when your character becomes more important and wealthy? Did it make your character decide to wait, find another sergeant, join the Byn, and then tirelessly work to get promoted above the Sergeant and then make his life hell?
Having your beginning plans for a character not work out ... sucks. But, the best solution is to chalk it up to Ginka and turn it into a unique experience.
Quote from: Thunkkin on May 22, 2009, 03:36:48 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on May 22, 2009, 03:28:32 PM
If this isn't good advice anymore, so be it, but at least it should be public knowledge.
Sounds like you had a bad experience.
Please, people, this isn't about my character. I watched another character, for example, being rejected by the Byn for just "being weird"... i.e. he lisped because of missing teeth and liked to chew on a bit of leather. Since when does the Byn take only pretty folk with prime manners?
If and when you play a Byn sergeant, you may play him differently.
None of us has a duty to the other players that comes ahead of playing out a consistent character.
You're sure that's all there was to it? If so, yeah, I guess that's kind of a strange reason to be rejected. It could be that there was more going on than you were privy to. Of course, not
everything in this game is a multi-layered plot within a plot, heh. ::)
Quote from: brytta.leofa on May 22, 2009, 03:59:11 PM
If and when you play a Byn sergeant, you may play him differently.
And what brytta said, too. Be the change you want to see. Do something IC about it. Or not, whatever makes sense.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on May 22, 2009, 03:59:11 PM
None of us has a duty to the other players that comes ahead of playing out a consistent character.
Though I agree with the general sentiment of, "There's probably a valid IC reason rather than the Sergeant just OOCly being a lazy douche," the specific above statement, I disagree with.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on May 22, 2009, 04:09:17 PM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on May 22, 2009, 03:59:11 PM
None of us has a duty to the other players that comes ahead of playing out a consistent character.
Though I agree with the general sentiment of, "There's probably a valid IC reason rather than the Sergeant just OOCly being a lazy douche," the specific above statement, I disagree with.
...hyperbole? :D
Quote from: brytta.leofa on May 22, 2009, 04:14:05 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on May 22, 2009, 04:09:17 PM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on May 22, 2009, 03:59:11 PM
None of us has a duty to the other players that comes ahead of playing out a consistent character.
Though I agree with the general sentiment of, "There's probably a valid IC reason rather than the Sergeant just OOCly being a lazy douche," the specific above statement, I disagree with.
...hyperbole? :D
Only you know if you were hypering your bole, but with your recent confession of current snarkiness, I expect so :P
My overall perspective is that we're all mutually responsible for making the game as enjoyable as possible for each other (and ourselves), and part of that is definitely playing a consistent character, but that's not the only important job, nor is it always the #1 thing needing done. Especially when it comes to noobs, making ARM a welcoming environment trumps overly-rigorous adherence to characterization, IMO.
Erm, that was IC info..and very recent. And what you have presented here as "evidence" to support your theory, is not conclusive. Nor does it accurately represent what actually occurred, or why it occurred the way it did.
Also consider, that sometimes, it is -very- obvious that the person looking for work is gonna be "high mainentance." Meaning, if you hire this person, their -player- will suck up every available moment of your play time, and you will have no chance of ever doing anything again as long as -their- player lives and works in your clan.
And then you have to decide. Do I mind, doing that? Is their roleplay impressive, entertaining, and interesting enough that I'd mind having every minute of my playtime occupied by them, and put aside all my other goals for my character? Or..would I prefer to cut bait and run, and pass them off to someone else?
I've had to make that decision several times. Sometimes, it's after the fact, after I've already invested hours and hours of my playtime into a single other PC and their player's needs. Sometimes..I'm the one who sucks the playtime out of someone. But it's a decision the players need to make, how much effort and time they are willing, and able, to invest in another individual player's roleplay.
Quote from: Lizzie on May 22, 2009, 04:26:42 PM
Erm, that was IC info..and very recent. And what you have presented here as "evidence" to support your theory, is not conclusive. Nor does it accurately represent what actually occurred, or why it occurred the way it did.
Also consider, that sometimes, it is -very- obvious that the person looking for work is gonna be "high mainentance." Meaning, if you hire this person, their -player- will suck up every available moment of your play time, and you will have no chance of ever doing anything again as long as -their- player lives and works in your clan.
And then you have to decide. Do I mind, doing that? Is their roleplay impressive, entertaining, and interesting enough that I'd mind having every minute of my playtime occupied by them, and put aside all my other goals for my character? Or..would I prefer to cut bait and run, and pass them off to someone else?
I've had to make that decision several times. Sometimes, it's after the fact, after I've already invested hours and hours of my playtime into a single other PC and their player's needs. Sometimes..I'm the one who sucks the playtime out of someone. But it's a decision the players need to make, how much effort and time they are willing, and able, to invest in another individual player's roleplay.
Yes, it is recent IC info. If there's anything I don't like about Arm, it's the posting to the GDB and not being allowed to back one's assertions with facts. It's why I've tried to stay away. I also happen to know that this bit of IC information is inconsequential.
But of course you're going to reply and say that there's no such thing as inconsequential IC information, etc. etc. Okay.
Does anything ever get settled on the GDB? :-\
Quote from: Eyeball on May 22, 2009, 04:32:48 PM
Yes, it is recent IC info. If there's anything I don't like about Arm, it's the posting to the GDB and not being allowed to back one's assertions with facts. It's why I've tried to stay away. I also happen to know that this bit of IC information is inconsequential.
Because I haven't quite been earning my pay lately as Keeper of All Things Data-ish, I feel compelled to point out that one IC incident does not a trend make; anecdata is not actually
data. So specifically citing an IC incident in an attempt to prove one's point is rather futile, and also, still totally against the rules.
The thing to do in a situation like this is send an email of concern to the clan staffers in question and let them know. Not a complaint. Simply a note of concern so that in case there is a problem (which there may not be at all), they are alerted to watch out for it.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on May 22, 2009, 04:38:16 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on May 22, 2009, 04:32:48 PM
Yes, it is recent IC info. If there's anything I don't like about Arm, it's the posting to the GDB and not being allowed to back one's assertions with facts. It's why I've tried to stay away. I also happen to know that this bit of IC information is inconsequential.
Because I haven't quite been earning my pay lately as Keeper of All Things Data-ish, I feel compelled to point out that one IC incident does not a trend make; anecdata is not actually data. So specifically citing an IC incident in an attempt to prove one's point is rather futile, and also, still totally against the rules.
The thing to do in a situation like this is send an email of concern to the clan staffers in question and let them know. Not a complaint. Simply a note of concern so that in case there is a problem (which there may not be at all), they are alerted to watch out for it.
It was an example, not my whole argument.
Anyhow, this is getting too frustrating for me. Goodbye all, I'm going to resume lurking.
In a place where there's no OOC channel, no help channel, and asking questions in the questions area of the forum on a game where even vets have onrunning jokes about the 'guess the syntax' game, I'd say, yes, older players -do- have an OOC duty to at least field the newer person to someone who can help, if not helping them themselves. I mean, I have never heard a single community of players that has said so much shit against newbs in clans and yet at the same time been about people joining clans. Parts of what I said are exaggerated, but the truth is there.
You aren't just asking whether or not the player is going to take that much time. You should be asking yourself, instead, what might wind up suffering because your leader character is not necessarily willing to spend all their time leading minions. I personally feel that if you don't want to lead, you shouldn't be asking for leadership positions just because you have more power/coin/are closer to the big plots etc. You should understand how many challenges one might posess may not be for you if helping out new players truly is an annoyance or something you don't enjoy or want to do.
I've noticed the Byn is damn lucky to get one contract every RL month. (I could be dead wrong)
Perhaps that is its failing, rather than recruiting.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on May 22, 2009, 05:03:18 PM
I've noticed the Byn is damn lucky to get one contract every RL month. (I could be dead wrong)
Perhaps that is its failing, rather than recruiting.
Yeah, in my experience it can be tough sometimes to keep contracts rolling in steadily, even in the best of times (high playerbase, multiple leaders, involved staff). It's just a fact that in most of the totally awesome contracts Byn go on, it involves multiple clans and their respective imms. It can be difficult just -scheduling- something like that. Even the best Byn Sarge player can't get a contract every other day (or even every week) because sometimes there's just not any work available. And sometimes there are loads of contracts available but the leadership is swamped and/or can't find a day or time for everyone to get in on it.
I've had successful merchant PC's who've been planning to hire them, gathered enough shit that -they'd- be able to make a profit off dragging someone else into it, and then every time they've gotten ready to hire them, said PC has gotten all the shit they planned on selling stolen from their apartment.
I wish that circumstances in the game facilitated hiring them more.
There's nothing I, as a player would like better than to bring more PC's into trading trips to make them more enjoyable and more of an adventure, but a lot of things IC aren't exactly conducive to having your commoners have enough extra coin to hire people for several small to come with them when that coin could instead go to pay rent on an apartment they're 'lucky' to have, despite that they can't keep anything in it.
(Also, sorry if I offend anyone, I am in a pissy, snarky mood today.)
Leadership positions are not the exclusive domain of "people who can codedly clan other people." A lot of leaders, don't actually DO any hiring at all, and yet make useful leaders who contribute to the game world. They are leading roleplay, not individual players. They are leading plotlines, not people. They are leading by coming up with new ideas, not by coming up with new recruits. And every single time they have to hire someone new, it means all that OTHER leadership stuff has to cease, until that newly hired person is able to handle themselves without needing that leader to help them.
Consider the desert elves..they don't hire tribe members, they don't hire "employees." And yet, I know of several who have been some of the most significant influences in my own personal gaming experience with Armageddon. THIS is what makes them leaders. Not just that they can, or do, or would, ever..spend hours working with a new player's new-hire character and teaching them the syntax to talk at a table. If they had to spend a lot of their time doing that, many people would never have had the benefit of experiencing their most significant leadership qualities. They're leaders because they have orchestrated and implemented roleplay opportunities for other people.
Don't confuse playing a leadership role, with someone who is required to hire new players' characters, or even with someone who is required to hire anyone at all. Not all leaders are employers, nor are all leaders required to be employers.
Even if I have no idea what the perceived problem is, I'm going to chip in with some very dated experience.
Playing a normal leadership role, my moral obligations are towards the players in my clan and the players whose characters want to interact with my clan. But the Byn has a special place in the OOC structure of the game, as the posts in this thread show. When I play a Byn Sergeant I feel obliged to provide new players with an interesting and eventful introduction to Armageddon, which is a great way to burn out.
As a second point and a possible solution to the first, perhaps the Byn is understaffed. The Militia, Merchant and Noble Houses, speaking generally, have an administrative wing, recruited through the GDB, and a military/hunting/crafting wing recruited through the game. I think the Byn could do well with some more staffing of the administrative, loyal-like-Family and likely long-lived variety. Could such a role be made interesting?
I think Northlander makes a very important point. Presently and mostly, Byn leaders are promoted in game, usually by default, when another leader dies. The new leader might or might not be qualified..might or might not even have enough experience playing Armageddon to understand the kajillion nuances of game play required to be a leader, let alone a good leader. Their players might not understand -how- their boss got all those contracts. Their players might not understand -why- House Mofo refuses to hire their crew. Their players might not understand..much. If their players are new to the game and were promoted ICly simply because they were the only ones left alive after that drop off the shield wall.
I think having a leader whose player was screened by the game staff, AS a leader..to show up in a leadership role..who has proven they are capable (or at the very least, have time)..to play a leadership position..would be a huge benefit. It's hard being a leader when you're new. It's harder when you're put there, by default, rather by earning the position.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on May 22, 2009, 05:03:18 PM
I've noticed the Byn is damn lucky to get one contract every RL month. (I could be dead wrong)
Perhaps that is its failing, rather than recruiting.
I know of a clan that has been trying to get the Byn for contracts for three IC years without a troop EVER being available.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on May 22, 2009, 05:03:18 PM
I've noticed the Byn is damn lucky to get one contract every RL month. (I could be dead wrong)
Perhaps that is its failing, rather than recruiting.
The Byn is entirely dependent on other groups hiring them for contracts. If people aren't hiring them that's not necessarily a failing of the Byn. When I played a Sergeant last we had a good sized group in the Byn but the only steady work we could get was from Kadius and occasionally Oash despite every contract we ever did going just fine. The other Houses were pretty much either self-sufficient or basically not doing anything that needed the Byn. I'm pretty sure there's also an element of more experienced players not wanting to bring a group that might contain new players out on something. This is where the low contact rate comes from I think. Translates into a major headache for a Byn Sergeant who has to keep the troops watered out of contract profits (at least that's the way it was not too long ago) and could lead to them being more choosy about hiring numbers.
So, in short I don't think the Byn is broken. Just needs other people to consistently make use of them as befits the best mercenary group around. Though with noble stipends being what they are this might be problematical. Independents usually have a far easier time being able to afford their rates it seems. The completely out of whack level of coin indies have vs. a noble stipend is a whole other debate though.
Quote from: Zoltan on May 22, 2009, 04:04:06 PM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on May 22, 2009, 03:59:11 PM
If and when you play a Byn sergeant, you may play him differently.
And what brytta said, too. Be the change you want to see. Do something IC about it. Or not, whatever makes sense.
Eyeball must have been tempted to say it, but that's kind of hard if he can't get in! :D
Quote from: Salt Merchant on May 22, 2009, 08:33:56 PM
Quote from: Zoltan on May 22, 2009, 04:04:06 PM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on May 22, 2009, 03:59:11 PM
If and when you play a Byn sergeant, you may play him differently.
And what brytta said, too. Be the change you want to see. Do something IC about it. Or not, whatever makes sense.
Eyeball must have been tempted to say it, but that's kind of hard if he can't get in! :D
Heh, you got me there.
If I could afford the Byn, I'd hire them for everything, no matter how ridiculous or necessary, that I would believe my underlings above. Which is most things. But as it currently stands, I simply don't get paid enough.
Could someone please tell me why a Byn Sergeant can't delegate trusted troopers to recruit !
Quote from: solera on May 23, 2009, 01:25:07 AM
Could someone please tell me why a Byn Sergeant can't delegate trusted troopers to recruit !
Because the 'recruit' command is available only to certain ranks. Trooper isn't one of them.
QuoteBecause the 'recruit' command is available only to certain ranks. Trooper isn't one of them.
I know. That's what I'm asking. Why not?
Quote from: solera on May 23, 2009, 01:34:53 AM
QuoteBecause the 'recruit' command is available only to certain ranks. Trooper isn't one of them.
I know. That's what I'm asking. Why not?
Because the people who created the T'zai Byn wanted it that way, and no one has changed it since.
I once, long ago, asked for a rank between Trooper and Sargent. Basically Corporal.
This was not accepted. As far as I remember, the answer was 'use your troopers'.
And this was at a time when there was enough activity that we opened the north, and had a PC Lieutenant.
- Get one more storyteller staffer on board to cover the Byn. They can perhaps have a focus on the Unit of people designed for the influx of new players. In this way -- You can have the well-oiled machines, a mixture of new players, vets, and people still green behind the ears, do professional contracts, while the 'newbie' unit struggles with syntax, grows a bit, and become green behind the ear, and are promoted into the "Barley's Badass Crew".
- App in a Byn Sergeant in the North, and a Byn Sergeant in the South. Why in the North? There are plenty of new players that get swallowed up by the typical Noble Houses. Take a bite.
- Be more maliable with the rules; delinate roles to certain troopers, call them 'Surveyors', and give them the ability to recruit.
- When your unit has no contracts, make contracts. The Byn is the only real 'outfit' of mercenaries on the entire planet. Be devious. Be clever, or be stupid, but if you weren't making any money on contracts...Wouldn't you go hire a couple dudes to set fire to an Oashi holding, send a third guy that's your Corporal to 'make sure the job's done', kill them, and wait until news of it has spread throughout the city, and then just wait for Oash to contact you to investigate by force?
- Perhaps deliniate a 'Unit' to be specifically designed to help newbie players, as someone mentioned previously, with rotating 'drill instructors', that could even be ex-Byn mercenaries, or current Troopers+. I think this will help avoid burn-out with the constant flow of new players, and no reprieve.
Just a few thoughts.
Corporal's been around on and off in the past years, as far as I've seen. I've played with 4 of them. It's only been unofficial to semi-official at best, and as a right hand man to the Sergeants. Problem there is that they have no access to the Sergeant documentation, so they're very reliant on their Sergeants for use of their ability.
And no, having a Corporal to handle jobs when the Sergeant ain't around doesn't help burnout much. There's more sources to burnout than handling contacts and teaching new players. If you have a huge influx of new players, the Sergeant can always pull a Trooper to help one out, or better yet, a Trooper can be promoted to Sergeant.
But personally, I think it should be there. There's always going to be someone you don't want as a Sergeant, like an elf, half-giant, or one of the many Bynners with brain damage. Those characters, while entirely likely to ruin the Byn, can make surprisingly good assistants :P
Quote from: Synthesis on May 23, 2009, 01:27:24 AM
Quote from: solera on May 23, 2009, 01:25:07 AM
Could someone please tell me why a Byn Sergeant can't delegate trusted troopers to recruit !
Because the 'recruit' command is available only to certain ranks. Trooper isn't one of them.
>promote Golmer recruiter doesn't work in the Byn?
Quote from: FantasyWriter on May 23, 2009, 11:23:43 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on May 23, 2009, 01:27:24 AM
Quote from: solera on May 23, 2009, 01:25:07 AM
Could someone please tell me why a Byn Sergeant can't delegate trusted troopers to recruit !
Because the 'recruit' command is available only to certain ranks. Trooper isn't one of them.
>promote Golmer recruiter doesn't work in the Byn?
It works.. but do staff allow it?
Don't know... If I was a sergeant with low enough playtimes or odd play times, and there was not enough incoming clannies for my clan to stay active, I would definitely email my staff to find out if I could do this to better that clan, though.
I think the Byn command structure is just fine the way it is. Besides, there's -always- that elder trooper hanging around that knows all the ins and outs. They don't need a whole new rank and coded abilities to be turned into an assistant.
The Byn is a bunch of murderers, thugs, rapists and border line psychotics, but they're organized. The command structure we see IG now is the most that that group can possibly be organized, on the whole.
Besides, as it stands now troopers and even runners can help out a -lot- with recruiting, just by getting word around town, spelling out the rules, explaining the new recruit's role, etc. Then it just comes down to getting that fee to a sergeant and getting codedly recruited, bam. Or! An enterprising trooper or runner can wish up for an imm to animate a sergeant or whatever to get a real eager recruit into the Byn. I've done this in the past myself, and it happens more than you might expect.
Quote from: Zoltan on May 23, 2009, 11:59:48 AM
Besides, as it stands now troopers and even runners can help out a -lot- with recruiting, just by getting word around town, spelling out the rules, explaining the new recruit's role, etc. Then it just comes down to getting that fee to a sergeant and getting codedly recruited, bam. Or! An enterprising trooper or runner can wish up for an imm to animate a sergeant or whatever to get a real eager recruit into the Byn. I've done this in the past myself, and it happens more than you might expect.
Quoting this in the hopes that more people read it.
I played a sergeant during a hugely active Byn period, late 2006 to early 2007. We had three mostly-active sergeants and a gaggle of experienced troopers as well as the usual rotating crew of runners. The only way I stayed sane playing that role was by delegating stuff like water runs, recruit trolling, and a mild degree of contract-sniffing to the most trusted troopers in the group. In the end, everything had to come back to the sergeant for the final okay, but nobody--staff included--ever argued the amount of freedom and management duties that some of those troopers had.
That being said, I think it's important that people remember the Byn isn't
just a newbie school. As others in this thread have stated, a sergeant has a responsibility to keep things profitable and active for the Bynners they've already got. Often times--especially during times when your clan is huge--this takes precedence over recruiting. It may come off as unfair to the player in question trying to be recruited. And that sucks. But you can't please everyone all the time.
I think the Byn's reputation as a newbie school is undeserved. Yes, every player should experience the Byn once in their Armageddon careers. However, I would hold back in terms of recommending it as a first clan for all newbies. Other clans are not really any less newb friendly. I've seen PCs being blatantly newb friendly in the 'rinth, of all places. I can think of several clans that are similar to the Byn in terms of training opportunities, imposing rules that help the newb survive (out-of-bounds areas), and have significantly better income. Troopers only have decent income when there are contracts. Runners almost never have any decent income, because their share of contracts is so small. I think we should be pointing newbies to military clans that pay a salary, at the very least.
AOD and the merchant houses rock cock for newbies.
Personally, every time I've been in the Byn I always felt like "just another runner".
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 28, 2009, 01:36:43 AM
AOD and the merchant houses rock cock for newbies.
Personally, every time I've been in the Byn I always felt like "just another runner".
The only way to distinguish yourself as a Runner is to be really good at something, or be a complete fuck-up.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 28, 2009, 01:36:43 AM
AOD and the merchant houses rock cock for newbies.
Personally, every time I've been in the Byn I always felt like "just another runner".
It's been more than a year, so I can say that my first real character joined House Tor. I still learned pretty much everything that I needed to, the people in the clan were awesome and understanding, my character had a salary on top of cool equipment and food and water, and
I was invovled first-hand in awesome plots. It was all amazing. It got me hooked on Armageddon, after my first few characters had all died quickly and I was beginning to wonder what the point of it all was.
New players need to experience that sort of thing, rather than being "just another runner" in the Byn. I don't want to diminish the sergeant(s) of the Byn that I've interacted with--they've been awesome as well--but it really helps immerse a new player in the game if their character is treated as a valuable asset rather than an expendable runner, and if they are involved in plots more deeply that simply going on contracts.
Honestly, I think the Byn is more for veterans who are burnt out on involved plots or highly-demanding roles.
Perhaps I'm wrong - indeed, I likely am - but it's always seemed to me like the Byn was somewhere a character went before they would be a noble guard. I know that if I'm hiring, I'd like to know that this girl or guy isn't just another feck. So in that manner, one can get plenty of different jobs once one is finished training. I wouldn't mind seeing characters having undergone Byn training, if not the Byn itself, be a bit more respected - that'd put a point into paying 300 'sid. As it is now the Militia and Merchant Houses are likely to pay you for similar stuff - though probably with fewer PCs - and you'd get some funkier stuff. Like hyzhenhok pointed out, one currently stands a chance of getting on with a Noble Nouse straight off the bat. Perhaps that'd move more folk through the Byn?
I still don't know if the Byn is broken, but I do know that PC-heavy environments are heavens for newbies.
Quote from: Northlander on May 28, 2009, 02:13:11 AM
I still don't know if the Byn is broken, but I do know that PC-heavy environments are heavens for newbies.
I'm not really sure this is true. It's important for a newbie to have one or two more experienced PCs to hang around with and roleplay with while they learn the ropes. Things being
too busy are just as bad for newbies. 10 PCs online in the same clan, all of them trying to roleplay and train, a good portion of them being newbies, isn't really the best learning environment IMO. Having 2-3 other PCs in your clan to RP with on a regular basis is plenty, even ideal. Too many people, and you're in danger of newbies becoming uninterested because they're treated as "just another runner."
Edit: And for understandable reasons, the Byn has a much worse IC reputation than the docs seem to indicate. This affects not only IC opinion of Byn PCs (almost universally looked down on), but also OOCly what kinds of characters end up joining the Byn. I remember House Tor actively trying to recruit runner graduates into its academy and failing, because PCs who were in the Byn tended to not be the kinds that would want to or be able to join a noble house. Instead of being a considered a highly effective, powerful mercenary company that's only in it for the money, the Tzai'Byn has the reputation of being a dirty mass of shitcloaks who are only in it for the money. There's a world of difference between the two.
Quote from: Northlander on May 28, 2009, 02:13:11 AM
Like hyzhenhok pointed out, one currently stands a chance of getting on with a Noble Nouse straight off the bat. Perhaps that'd move more folk through the Byn?
I enjoy this line of thinking. When you can join a Merchant House as a Guard or other combat-style role, straight out of the Hall of Kings, OR you can go to the Byn, it feels like it defeats the purpose of the Byn itself. In a recruiting position, I would -much- rather know they ICly went through some Byn training before I hire them. Shows they MIGHT not die in a week, AND they know the basic ADL's to stay alive.
Unfortunately, that is NOT possible in most cases. People want PCs in their clan and are willing to put up with the period of noobish skill for it.
Quote from: Northlander on May 28, 2009, 02:13:11 AM
Perhaps I'm wrong - indeed, I likely am - but it's always seemed to me like the Byn was somewhere a character went before they would be a noble guard. I know that if I'm hiring, I'd like to know that this girl or guy isn't just another feck. So in that manner, one can get plenty of different jobs once one is finished training. I wouldn't mind seeing characters having undergone Byn training, if not the Byn itself, be a bit more respected - that'd put a point into paying 300 'sid. As it is now the Militia and Merchant Houses are likely to pay you for similar stuff - though probably with fewer PCs - and you'd get some funkier stuff. Like hyzhenhok pointed out, one currently stands a chance of getting on with a Noble Nouse straight off the bat. Perhaps that'd move more folk through the Byn?
I think this may already be the case. Most employers would understand the difference in hiring an ex-Bynner to some random bystander. In the same sense, the Byn can be just as easily disrespected for taking in all races, and all sorts. And the poopy boots don't help much either.
I'd like to see clan docs differentiate between green characters and pre-trained characters (i.e. Byn grads). I suppose this could be left up to individual sargents (who are hiring), as well.
I remember the days when nobles were paying the entry fees for newbs to go through the Byn, and saying "You have a job in one year." And I remember PCs managing to do this.
It seems like a good choice for basic training, a good way to populate the Byn and other military organizations, and a good way to give the characters involved more depth as well as contacts and an identity beyond their jobs. It seems like a possible way to prevent job burnout by widening character interaction.
Just a thought.
Morrolan
Quote from: Morrolan on May 28, 2009, 10:02:54 AM
I'd like to see clan docs differentiate between green characters and pre-trained characters (i.e. Byn grads). I suppose this could be left up to individual sargents (who are hiring), as well.
I remember the days when nobles were paying the entry fees for newbs to go through the Byn, and saying "You have a job in one year." And I remember PCs managing to do this.
It seems like a good choice for basic training, a good way to populate the Byn and other military organizations, and a good way to give the characters involved more depth as well as contacts and an identity beyond their jobs. It seems like a possible way to prevent job burnout by widening character interaction.
Just a thought.
Morrolan
This is the way it should be. IMHO.
Quote
This is the way it should be. IMHO.
The way it should be, imho, is half-n-half program, where every PC (even the non-combatants) in a House (noble or merchant) gets paid access to Byn training halls or Tor Academy* (depending on race, social status) and perhaps the occasional leeway to go on contracts/patrols pending permission from the primary employer. Meanwhile, they still work for the employer -- going on errands/missions/special House specific training etc.
Signing promising recruits and agents up to the Academy actually makes some IC sense. It's not too much of a stretch that the Byn would accept payment to assist in training clanned soldiers. Perhaps the Outpost and House training grounds are full-up with vNPCs? It's a poor justification, but the benefit is almost entirely OOC -- the playerbase gets concentrated. There'd probably always be to someone available to spar with/interact with, even in the lowest point of off-peak. Plus, even if the supply of runners/contracts is dry, the Byn Sarge is still going to have a mission -- playing drill sargeant and keeping all the House employees from "accidentally" killing each other.
As it stands I am leery of joining up with any of the more structured in-game organizations, for fear of caging myself in a situation where I'd end up with sparse options, as far as actually playing the game is concerned. I'm hoping Arm.2's sparring grounds work more like as I've described above, and a bit less like the current system.
* Not sure what the northern equivalent would be.
The problem with that, is that it depends on current events - which change constantly. Example:
I'm a noble. There's a couple "green" characters who are also new. They have the potential to be awesome, but I'm a noble, and it's not my job to train them. So I pay their way into the Byn.
The Sergeant dies. The trooper is promoted, and the trooper never had this agreement, and never saw a single sid from the entry fee I gave the dead sergeant, because the trooper was just a runner at the time. The new Sergeant gets sids from -another- noble to take the first green guy's contract, and goes for it, because -he- never had any agreement with me, and he's now getting sids to give *my* green guy away to someone else.
Situation #2.
I'm a noble. Green characters get sponsored to the Byn. The Byn, being famous for shield wall exploits, loses the guy I just paid for. Sergeant refuses to refund my sids, or sponsor someone else. I give up and stop bothering to try sponsoring people into the Byn.
Situation #3
Situation #2 happens, and the sergeant dies, and a new sergeant shows up. I try the same deal with him. He says yeah yeah, but never follows through. I give up again.
And so on and so forth.
That has been -mostly- my experience with the Byn, as the player of a potential "sponsoring" PC. It just really hasn't been worth the effort because I rarely get the Bynner graduate I paid for, no matter how the arrangement was done.
What's the average lifespan of a Byn sergeant? Six weeks or so?
Strikes me that the death rate of Bynners is the thing most hurting the clan, both in terms of reputation and stability. But I can't say I'm very tuned in to things on that front.
Maybe because they're bored as shit and go get themselves killed.
I'm under the impressino that many more Bynners die off of contracts than on them.
Threads like this always tempt me badly.
Quote from: Sephiroto on May 28, 2009, 11:39:10 AM
I'm under the impressino that many more Bynners die off of contracts than on them.
I wish DELL had not lost my old computer. I had careful logs of about six months worth of Byn recruiting and so on. I once had twelve active runners and troopers in my unit.
And yes, many, many, many runners have a strong belief that they can beat the odds and walk the 'rinth, outside the gates, or whatever, unharmed.
Yes, this thread tempts me.
Mightily.
Quote from: Lizzie on May 28, 2009, 11:06:45 AM
troubles sponsoring
Why don't you just deal with the sponsoree directly? Here's 300 sid. If you don't come out alive, I'll find your mother and kill her. Don't have a mother? Your brother/sister/cousin will do fine.
it's ridiculous that a sergeant would have to REFUND you money because the guy you thought was worth hiring got himself killed. What kinda deal is that? What sergeant would ever agree to that? A bad sergeant. One you shouldn't be entrusting sponsorees to.
Just deal with the sponsorees directly and all your problems go away. If you think he's the dying type, don't sponsor him! Or give him a minor test first. Just like normal clan leaders have to do. You're bitching about things that -all- other clan leaders have to deal with when they self-train. You can't get risk free training from the Byn. That's ridiculous. If you had to train on your own, you'd be risking a lot more than 300 sid per in time and gear. If you sponsor 2 runners and get one out alive, that's a deal!
If I was a lowly Byn Sergeant, and a fucking NOBLE demanded 300 'sid, I'd sure as HELL give it to him, even if it was a completely arbitrary demand...much less if I got one of his recruits killed.
What is this, American contract law? A noble could have you killed out of mere spite, much less you fucking with his guard force, even if it -is- the dumbass recruit's fault.
Quote from: Synthesis on May 28, 2009, 12:13:50 PM
If I was a lowly Byn Sergeant, and a flowered NOBLE demanded 300 'sid, I'd sure as HELL give it to him, even if it was a completely arbitrary demand...much less if I got one of his recruits killed.
What is this, American contract law? A noble could have you killed out of mere spite, much less you fluffing with his guard force, even if it -is- the dumbeye recruit's fault.
A wise junior noble probably shouldn't want to play political paper-rock-scissors with the Byn...and vice-versa. Though it would make a great miniplot and somebody should do it.
Yeah, that being said, harassing a Byn Sarge over 300 'sid definitely smacks of nooble.
I'm just sayin'. If they were havin' a REAL bad day, it'd be best not to argue the point.
Like many organizations, the T'zai-Byn is only as good as its current leadership.
When the Byn has an active, imaginative, and consistent leader in charge of a Unit, the Byn operates like a well-oiled machine and can provide a wealth of opportunity for great RP, relationship-building, internal and external conflict, and more. Its success and failure hinges upon leadership, and blaming the structure or the organization itself is a bit misplaced. What people generally experience is the ebb and flow of the player base as it moves through various PC-led groups and structures.
How easy it is to join the T'zai-Byn depends completely on the PC leadership involved, just as it is for GMH's, Noble Houses, the AoD, or any other PC-led and ICly-recruited organization. If you'd like to see it improved, add to its ranks and help flesh it out. I'm pretty sure the internal structure of the clan has remained intact for the last several years, so the only possible variables are the players and the staff, and I would begin my search in one of those two areas if you're experiencing "new" or "different" issues with consistent leadership or recruitment.
-LoD
Quote from: Synthesis on May 28, 2009, 12:51:56 PM
Yeah, that being said, harassing a Byn Sarge over 300 'sid definitely smacks of nooble.
I'm just sayin'. If they were havin' a REAL bad day, it'd be best not to argue the point.
Sad paradox of playing a noble: When you're new and need the money, it's hard to get it, and damages your rep to try to do so. When you're established and don't need the money, it's easy to get it, and enhances your rep to try to do so.
Last time I was in the Byn it was very nice. Great sergeant, a not great sergeant, and a good selection of runners, many of whom had the chops to be great troopers. I was looking forward to actually lasting more than 5 days with this set up and us all rocking out and kicking ass. When good mercs get bored, trouble happens, and it often is NOT of the "Mercs all die" variety. Sometimes it is of the "Becoming bandit kings variety." This manner of plot line is what I was expecting. Then there was a very rapid die off of characters, and I haven't been in the group since. But yes, leadership and intent make up for alot.
And I miss the sponsership/clan hiring days, too.
I think the sponsorship stopped because "the Byn is not a school, it is a mercenary company."
Quote from: a strange shadow on May 28, 2009, 01:49:03 PM
I think the sponsorship stopped because "the Byn is not a school, it is a mercenary company."
IMO
the BYN needs to start getting more contracts, from the mundane scouting to guard duty to starting trouble.
THATS why they are there, and as far as -I- could tell, they were solely used for RPTs and need to be utilized
more so to make the job less tedious and more enjoyable for all.
Quote from: a strange shadow on May 28, 2009, 01:49:03 PM
I think the sponsorship stopped because "the Byn is not a school, it is a mercenary company."
Quote from: help bynT'zai Byn (General)
Once the Allanaki Mercenaries' Guild, The T'zai Byn is now the largest
mercenaries' guild in both Allanak and Tuluk. It is easily the oldest
and largest mercenary company in Allanak. With a reputation for toughness
and brutal effectiveness on the field, the Byn is also known for its
neutrality with respect to many factions, an essential quality for much
of its work. Escorting, guarding, and training are the company's three
main operations.
The T'zai Byn has only expanded to the newly reborn Tuluk in recent
years. It is not uncommon for Tulukis to look down upon the Byn and those
in it due to the Byn's acceptance of a job to reinforce the Allanaki
forces occupying the Gol Krathu during and prior to the war of Liberation.
However, the Byn's assistance is known to have been relatively minor, and
although still bitter, such sentiments among the Northern populace are
slowly dying away.
T'zai Byn members are recognizable by their hooded, brown military abas,
and full members will also have studded sleeves with stripes on them to
indicate their rank. Quite often during the evenings and weekends (Ocandra
and Detal), off duty Byn members can be found at the Gladiator and the Gaj
Tavern in Allanak. Their compound is north of the east entrance to the
Bazaar.
The cost to join the T'zai Byn is 300 obsidian pieces, so players who
wish to join should either save that amount or find a Merchant or Noble
House to sponsor them in. Recruitment is done completely in character.
Characters from Allanak or familiar with Allanak would probably have heard
of the Byn and would know that a Sergeant PC with two stripes on their
sleeves would be who they need to find in order to join.
Quote from: T'zai Byn docsFor many years, the Byn enjoyed a working relationship with the Templarate, providing basic military training for many Allanaki Militia recruits.
Quote from: T'zai Byn docsRunners are probationary members. Many of them are here to receive basic training and then go elsewhere to work (e.g., for a merchant House).
Yeah, sponsorship is totally against the docs. ::)
I can only speak from my experiences. When I was in the Byn it was really boring. I mean.. I understood the whole structure and that was fine. But there was really no great roleplay going on. Nobody was doing any of the actual schedule it seemed. Desert Training, forget about it. Weapons/Armor Maintenance was a joke. And nobody ever did Weapons Training, we all just sparred nonstop. Sparring is fine but I would much rather sit through a very well thought-out and roleplay session of instruction, rather then just sparring over and over and over. It makes no sense that you're going to get better by simply sparring. That is not real-world. You don't spar as a boxer over and over to get better, you learn the basics and you talk a lot. You train your body and mind, sparring is only one very minimal aspect of learning to fight and I am sure sparring is not how you learn to swordfight or get better with daggers or anything like that. The real way would be somebody teaching and showing you tricks, and how to move, etc.
Also, none of the sergeants were active, and so after a while when I finally did see a sergeant (the only one active it seems), I asked him to remove me and he did. Granted, the clan seems to be very strong and have a lot of potential, but I think as others suggested, without true leadership (in any clan), then it simply crumbles and doesn't work.
Quote from: shadeoux on May 28, 2009, 01:51:41 PM
IMO
the BYN needs to start getting more contracts, from the mundane scouting to guard duty to starting trouble.
THATS why they are there, and as far as -I- could tell, they were solely used for RPTs and need to be utilized
more so to make the job less tedious and more enjoyable for all.
If the Byn stopped charging a metric fuck ton for contracts, maybe they'd get more business. From a playability point of view a Byn Sergeant needs to figure out ways to make extra coin on the side instead of ripping off potential customers.
Doing 1-2 contracts a RL day for a few hundred 'sid each would be more fun, and ultimately profitable, than doing 1 contract a RL week for 2K or whatever they charge these days. Especially if you kill a few critters or forage some herbs or rocks or whatever along the way.
I know as recently as 2007, sponsorship into the Byn by nobles/merchants was practiced. Has it changed since then? If so, why / by whom?
Quote from: Sephiroto on May 28, 2009, 02:20:36 PM
Quote from: shadeoux on May 28, 2009, 01:51:41 PM
IMO
the BYN needs to start getting more contracts, from the mundane scouting to guard duty to starting trouble.
THATS why they are there, and as far as -I- could tell, they were solely used for RPTs and need to be utilized
more so to make the job less tedious and more enjoyable for all.
If the Byn stopped charging a metric fuck ton for contracts, maybe they'd get more business. From a playability point of view a Byn Sergeant needs to figure out ways to make extra coin on the side instead of ripping off potential customers.
Doing 1-2 contracts a RL day for a few hundred 'sid each would be more fun, and ultimately profitable, than doing 1 contract a RL week for 2K or whatever they charge these days. Especially if you kill a few critters or forage some herbs or rocks or whatever along the way.
This would have been grand for me as a runner. I really couldn't stand the constant grind that was going on. I would have preferred to get some actual experience doing something, -anything- other than just sitting around the compound idling and waiting for dawn to come so we can spar again. I think it's a lazy way of playing and even a simple trip outside would perk up most runners/troopers. Doing something other then simply sitting around or sparring. Even if it's a virtual contract that the sergeant made up.
The reason Byn sergeants don't go out the gates on a lark is because it's expensive and dangerous.
20 'sid per person for mounts + 45 'sid per person for a day's water...that's a lot of money wasted just to go kill a scrab or two to take the edge off the boredom.
The last time I was in, we actually went and did a lot of stuff...but it was all profitable, and we had some serious ass-kickers on hand who could handle themselves if shit went downhill.
Quote from: Sephiroto on May 28, 2009, 02:20:36 PM
If the Byn stopped charging a metric fuck ton for contracts, maybe they'd get more business. From a playability point of view a Byn Sergeant needs to figure out ways to make extra coin on the side instead of ripping off potential customers.
Doing 1-2 contracts a RL day for a few hundred 'sid each would be more fun, and ultimately profitable, than doing 1 contract a RL week for 2K or whatever they charge these days. Especially if you kill a few critters or forage some herbs or rocks or whatever along the way.
By the time you add up stable fees and the effective cost in water for going out into the desert, there isn't much left of that few hundred 'sid. Nothing, even.
Virtual contracts might help.
No major cash injections but enough to keep the stabling and most of the water fees manageable, or whatever.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on May 28, 2009, 02:22:48 PM
I know as recently as 2007, sponsorship into the Byn by nobles/merchants was practiced. Has it changed since then? If so, why / by whom?
Been done within the last year.
I really don't understand why the Byn doesn't have its own stabling facility and supply of free water, like every other clan does. It really reduces the playability of the clan. Is it any wonder that runners are screwing off in the 'rinth or outside when they can't get adventure and coin any other way? No one wants the Byn to be "cushy" and "not harsh and gritty," but the way things are currently set up just makes no sense. There are better ways to promote harshness and grittiness than making fun play unnecessarily difficult to achieve.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on May 28, 2009, 02:58:53 PM
I really don't understand why the Byn doesn't have its own stabling facility and supply of free water, like every other clan does.
It would be a big help. When I played a Byn Sarge and the tuns ran dry for the first time I fired off an email asking for them to be refilled only to be told I had to fill them myself. With the other Sergeant at the time uninterested in doing the actual mundane work of a Sergeant this left me having to cater for the water for about 15 people. Was a constant battle to keep people watered and led to us having to travel great distances to fill barrels up from known water sources around the world which is rather silly really.
Quote from: Sephiroto on May 28, 2009, 02:20:36 PM
If the Byn stopped charging a metric fuck ton for contracts, maybe they'd get more business. From a playability point of view a Byn Sergeant needs to figure out ways to make extra coin on the side instead of ripping off potential customers.
Doing 1-2 contracts a RL day for a few hundred 'sid each would be more fun, and ultimately profitable, than doing 1 contract a RL week for 2K or whatever they charge these days. Especially if you kill a few critters or forage some herbs or rocks or whatever along the way.
The Byn charges decent rates for your bog standard escort runs to Tuluk and back. The problem is people know that they can almost certainly get away without getting any escort and so indy merchants when they're doing their 10,000 'sid runs there and back aren't ready to spread the 'sid around on the things they should be spending it on realistically before retiring with 100k in the bank. Seriously, people can afford to let go of some 'sid just to keep things ticking over. It might even be more fun than blazing non-stop trails up and down the north road.
Also, Salt Merchant is right in that if the Byn charges 1,000 for a round trip for example and there's 1 sarge, 2 troopers and 2 runners coming along there won't be much left in the end. 200 'sid gone on stabling. At least another 100 for water.
There have been a lot of people in game trying to hire the Byn lately, but they have either been unable to find ANYONE, or there aren't enough PCs for a contract... and this is often and over a long period of time (>1 IG year). A sergeant is going to have to build up a dependable troop before people will trust and depend on them enough to hrie them out more... if the Byn is unable to be used 90% of the time, they are going to find someone else and stop trying to use the Byn.
Until there is a good Sgt. that last at least a few RL months, with a crew that has been around for at least one of those months, people just aren't going to keep waisting they time and effort on finding the Byn for contracts.
Vicious circle, that is. No great Sergeants -> no abundance of runners recruited -> no long lifespan of runners turning into badass Troopers -> no capability to do contracts -> no use of the Byn from the rest of the playerbase -> no interest in the playerbase in joining the Byn -> no capability to produce great Sergeants -> repeat.
That's why the Byn is so cyclical. Of course, it's no more truly cyclical than any other clan, but the Byn happens to be more necessary than many clans. So when it's down, the down time is more noticeable to the playerbase as a whole.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on May 28, 2009, 04:55:16 PM
That's why the Byn is so cyclical. Of course, it's no more truly cyclical than any other clan, but the Byn happens to be more necessary than many clans. So when it's down, the down time is more noticeable to the playerbase as a whole.
Definitely. I've agreed with every word you've posted in this thread, Gimf.
The main problem is finding a "good Sergeant" with "good playtimes" who doesn't die in as stupid or more stupid ways than their Runners.
To the OP, and anyone else who's bitter about the Byn's success: be the change you want to see. Seriously. Byn Sarge is probably one of the easiest leadership roles in the game, it's not as hard to acquire as you think. If you want the Byn to be more active, make a Bynner and stick with it for a little while. Perhaps even send the Byn immortals a quick email stating that you're interested in playing a Sergeant. You never know until you try.
If you can't or don't want to make a Byn Sergeant; if you can't or don't want to be the change you want to see, then quit whining.
*Goes to microwave a bowl of stew*
I still think that if the staff would occasionally -sponsor- a Sergeant special app role, that'd make a big difference. I also agree that water and stables should be either provided in the compound, or available at a -huge- discount from the public stables/watersellers in Tuluk and Allanak. Maybe 5 sids stabling fees in Tuluk and Allanak, and half-price for Troopers and higher to fill barrels.
I'm totally in favor of both. One to cut costs to the Byn crews themselves, thus giving them more ability to do "smaller" escort jobs, or do more serviceable deals with people who aren't necessarily bringing a lot of stuff to sell, but simply need safe passage from point A to point B.
Another to ensure that the Sergeant's player has proven at least -some- ability to play in a leadership role, has -some- experience with the Byn, has -some- experience playing a combat-oriented role, had -some- useful knowledge of the geography of the game world, and has -some- reasonable play times with which to do some recruiting and contract-getting.
If you could do both of these things in tandem, I think the Byn would be more attractive to players of potential employees AND employers.
Quote from: Rhyden on May 28, 2009, 05:15:02 PM
Seriously. Byn Sarge is probably one of the easiest leadership roles in the game, it's not as hard to acquire as you think.
To add to that it's probably one of the more fun leadership roles. It's a nice balance between power, responsibility and freedom of action. You're almost always busy and the life of a Bynner is pretty mundane if you fancy a change from fancy & magickal plots.
Quote from: Synthesis on May 28, 2009, 02:06:26 PM
Quote from: a strange shadow on May 28, 2009, 01:49:03 PM
I think the sponsorship stopped because "the Byn is not a school, it is a mercenary company."
Quote from: T'zai Byn docsFor many years, the Byn enjoyed a working relationship with the Templarate, providing basic military training for many Allanaki Militia recruits.
Quote from: T'zai Byn docsRunners are probationary members. Many of them are here to receive basic training and then go elsewhere to work (e.g., for a merchant House).
Yeah, sponsorship is totally against the docs. ::)
I wasn't saying I agreed with it, Synth, just repeating what I was told.
I think sponsorship is just another way for the Byn to make money.
Also, whoever said that they can't believe the Byn doesn't have its own stableyard...
... you know that saying, "Be the change...?" ;)
Edit because I suck at quoting.
I would, but I ain't playin' ARM at all, at the moment...tempted though I may be.
I have sponsored Bynners before, usually because my character is too busy to train them, or can't be arsed training them, or they look too sickly to survive training, etc. On none of these occasions did I bother talking to the Sergeant - just gave the dude 300 coins and told him to come back and see me in a year.
Then I usually forgot about them.
On a couple of memorable occasions, they actually came back and got recruited. I'd like to hope at least one of them was opportunistic enough to just take the money go get spiced up for a week.
Many of the arguments I've read on this thread can be done IG. There are a few exceptions though, and it's the staff's decision.
How I've heard it given:
Byn-dedicated stabling. (that is, a stables in the compound) = No.
Water being automatically filled. = No.
You can certainly make arrangements IG to bring the price down on either of these, however.
To be honest, there's a lot of potential for the Byn, so long as people are willing to step up to the role and be the change. We can talk as long as we want on a discussion thread, but it won't do anything unless people act on it.
I know one thing, at least for my own character, if there was a Byn unit that was active in my area, they'd have plenty of things to do.
Instead of asking for a free stable out of thin air, a sergeant could start a plot trying to get one of the GMHs to build them a stables in exchange for free escorts for a year or something like that. Then everyone win.
Staff is MUCH more liable to give you something you spend time, money, and effort working towards than something you think you should just have given to you.
fuckit. my next char is a dwarf with the focus to command a byn unit in an argosy with a viv chained up in one of its closets.
Can I be the viv? That sounds hot. :O
Quote from: FantasyWriter on May 29, 2009, 01:50:30 AM
Instead of asking for a free stable out of thin air, a sergeant could start a plot trying to get one of the GMHs to build them a stables in exchange for free escorts for a year or something like that. Then everyone win.
Staff is MUCH more liable to give you something you spend time, money, and effort working towards than something you think you should just have given to you.
Like Gimf said. The problems right now are causing people to not want to do what you suggest. It's cyclical.
There was an IC trick my former Sergeant used to keep water full for very cheap. Didn't involve gicker water, but was close :P
I've seen some sponsorship IC too, kid learned quite a bit. But somewhat too recent to comment more.
Stabling has always been a bitch, though. I know only one sergeant who was dedicated to training his men outdoors. Other than that, most of the Byn units seemed comically completely hopeless outside the gates.
Quote from: SMuz on May 29, 2009, 06:03:00 AM
Stabling has always been a bitch, though. I know only one sergeant who was dedicated to training his men outdoors. Other than that, most of the Byn units seemed comically completely hopeless outside the gates.
I think that's bullshit and the OOC attitude that some people have about the quality of the Byn doesn't help matters IG. Most Byn units I've ever been in or have seen in action have been plenty competent. Yes they typically have a few newbies along who need some hand holding but that's fine as you've usually got some experienced players who know how to handle things. As a Runner, Trooper or Sergeant I've never been on a contract where the Byn didn't get the job done. As somebody hiring the Byn a number of times across multuple characters to do a contract for me they've never failed me.
I was partly kidding :P Oh, they do get the job done. I never said they didn't. Too recent to mention what I mean, but 'failures' often include the loss of life & resources, and it always happens outside the gates. Contracts are done, sure, but a lot of the loss is when they're not on contract.
A couple of byn characters ago there was a Sergeant and Corporal running things that worked great together. I think that any successful byn unit needs a fall-back dude like this Corporal was to fill in the gaps of what the Sergeant cannot accomplish on his own.
Also, they killed 12 tarantula at once during one particular mission while the rest of the party was getting steam rolled. That was pretty sweet.