Armageddon General Discussion Board

As a player of four years that has stopped being involved in the game, I would like to offer this following critique of the game.  It's your choice to read it, but as a player that is quitting that has played for four years and has a few points of karma or so I would like offer my opinion as I currently do not care if I return to the game or not this is non-bias and extremely candid.  We've been talking a lot lately about player retention and since it appears I am bowing out I would like to offer my perspective.

First, I would like to say that Armageddon is an amazing game.  For a long while I viewed Armageddon as a magnificent piece of art, some what on par with a great literary work that never ends.  The players and staff that created this functional (though admittedly not always realistic) world and the standard that they created in my mind are pretty incredible.

But after playing for four years, I'm very disappointed to find myself well, disappointed and a little bit jaded.  My perspective of Armageddon is tarnished and it's kind of like watching George Lucas twist Star Wars or having all of the copies in the world of your favorite book destroyed.

Regardless of how apathetic people seem to be, Armageddon has (to be a little deadpan) been a great and big part of my life.  It's been a middle ground for my fiance, I've met many friends on here that have even helped me with some tough times.  This game has brought me to tears and I've seen it bring six happy couples together so far that likely would never have met otherwise.  That's why I believe this is earnestly worth saying because I would like to see Armageddon succeed.  With that being said, here are some of my opinions of Armageddon and why I feel it's broke.

A Lack of Common Goals

This part is brief.  In the time I've been playing while the staff correspondences here are significantly better than some other online gaming communities I find there is still a significant lack of professionalism.  E-mails are not returned on time.  Roles are offered and players are not responded to for weeks or months.  IMMs can be short, sarcastic and even cruel in communication on the GDB and e-mail - definitely they are bias.  I have been playing for four years, in all those years I've heard discussion about upgrading the website (the game's first impression) to something more comprehensive and eye catching.  This has never been done.  Greatly appreciated tweaks have been made but it seems like effort isn't going where effort is due.  Case in point the new chat room system, but I'll get to that.  Overall there seems to be a general lack of organization.  Where the documentation was once very concise it seems that the documentation is currently always being changed or added to.


New Immortals - New Vision

Though many of the immortals have come in and done an amazing job I have a very huge concern about seniority.  There is a real lack of seniority right now.  Many IMMs that were around when I first started playing seem to have fallen away.  New IMMs are being introduced more and more, sometimes when I am in a clan I get a response from an IMM that I had never heard of, is not listed as an IMM for my clan and an IMM I never heard announced.  It's just like player retention - IMM retention is just as important.  If we can't keep senior immortals (and not just coders) what kind of standard is set for the new IMMs, and are they changing the standard.  It's like when you love a movie and then a new director makes the sequal and it's just not the same.  How is that effecting the game?

This game has a foundation.  The past has been successful.  The previous IMMs helped make this game what it is.  Suddenly it seems the entire game is being flushed out for a new one.  A new one that had no guarantee to be as successful with new IMMs that did not initially help this game become what it was.  I feel there is a general lack of focus and game is degrading because of that.  Let's go back to the movie analogy.  The Matrix was huge, it was one of the biggest sci-fi kicks in a long while, the mythology started out being pretty darned intriguing.  Then the focus went to graphics and innovative cinematography instead of story and handful of years later the sequels are sitting on the four dollar rack at the grocery store.

Without IMMs to maintain a standard - the standard that brought this game ten years of success, I fear that a few things are happening.  One is a slow disregard for the documentation.  Clans are shifting and changing constantly and not necessarily to so much fit the game world that we've all come to love but to fit the newer "generation" of IMM desires.

New Changes to Clans and Storytelling

I have to say I'm greatly surprised about this change.  While I think that lumping the cities and their areas of society and otherwise was a good idea, I'm lost on all of the rest.  This was marketed to be something that will give players more capability.  This won't happen for several reasons.  The only real change I saw was that PC leaders are no longer going to be animated.

1) Now IMMs will have less time as they will be answering e-mails and animating NPCs - E-mails are already not responded to and lead to character storing in clans.

2) Now IMMS will be able to manipulate the storyline using e-mail, final say and animating NPCs that have the ability to change your character's storyline while at the same time being privy to all OOC information being sent their way.

This comes after not long ago there was a rule to decide that clans were going to be shifted.  They were hardly ever shifted and player fears came to life.  Sometimes clan that was once working like a well oiled machine changed direction under the new IMMs.  NPCs that had once faired one way, faired the other.  New IMMs had to be put up to speed after the shift.  It seems there has been lots of change to fill the front page but a real lack of substantiality and stability that the players can rely on.  The code maybe better and sometimes the service in some circumstance has become more dependable, but has the story really gotten any better?  Has the game really become more intriguing because of it?  I say no.  And I think no is in the numbers as I watch jaded players that played for years fall off the game one by one.

Not to mention I was enormously surprised to find the new chat system where people can create their own chats and mod them.  Not that this isn't already happening on various social websites and messenger systems but for IMMs to actually encourage this OOC spread of information and ability to create more clichés is really incredible to me.  Especially when there are so many other ways that funds (monetary or time wise) could be utilized.

Armageddon is an OOC Game - Politics and Elitism.

This is my final point and my largest.  Armageddon is an OOC game.  One may not notice it at first in the early stages of "newbdom."  But one quickly begins to understand that one must participate in an OOC game along with the IC one.  Is it worth it?  It might be - until you lose the OOC side and it begins to effect the IC.

The entire karma system is currently set up in a way that players are punished if their OOC communication is not up to par.  Even so much that it stifles progress in the game because players can not offer up due criticism for fear of being nerfed on special application or leadership roles.  This is a very real problem.  It's an obvious problem.  And it's something that is disgusted on the various OOC channels of communication every single day.

It has been made very clear that the Armageddon community is not one of a democracy but one that it is totalitarian in nature making players even more dependant.  It reminds me of George Lucas making millions off of his fans and then saying that he doesn't take into consideration their criticism to his films.  The IMMs are holding all of the cards and criticism of their leadership is not only condemned and discouraged but punished whenever someone may apply for a role.  Bad account notes are actually put onto your account for GDB and OOC interactions regardless of your role play capabilities or success in former leadership roles.  Regardless of how you may benefit the story of Armageddon the line of OOC discussion is a hard one to balance.  Not only in receiving a role but advancing your mundane character as well, even within the bounds of realism.

I think what IMMS and even players may fail to understand is that criticism is crucile not only to a relationship but to a changing community and a community that wants to continue to improve.  I don't think players or IMMs should so much concern themselves with if the person criticizing is good at doing so constructively so much as if their criticism has validity instead of ultimately punishing that person if you don't agree or if they come off in a way you don't like.

The meat of this part of my critique is that the OOC game is one that everyone loses and one that we all play and it's getting worse for several reasons.  It's the elephant in the room so to speak.  I've had great OOC interactions, including the APM.  And I think people can definitely handle OOC information many times (though not all of the times) without letting it hinder their RP abilities.  But my issue comes whenever OOC politics become a game you must play in order to gain an advantage.

Conclusion

This is my conclusion as someone who wants the best for this game.  I recently had two very bad experiences with this game where role play and documentation were completely ignored.  Before that I had stepped away from the game for about two months.  I had those experiences stepped back a month, came back and played and then stepped back again.  I submitted one application where I felt I had done well before and could significantly attempt to make the game engaging only to never receive an e-mail regarding it.  Four years ago as a newb I played a character for three real life months that had no problem with magickers and ended up bedding one.  Through the course of three months the story was amazing.  I was enslaved, I was attacked, I worked various jobs regardless of guild.  In fact I think I only fought once.  When I got knocked up by a magicker I was attacked, cursed, warned and made an outcast.  Four real life years later, I walked into a tavern as a northerner and got pats on the back and smiles from a southron crowd in one of the grungiest southside tavern.  My first reaction was, seriously?  In the past months I've seen thing, after thing, after thing, after thing that clearly completely defies and entirely ignores the documentation.  The grittiness feels gone.  Let's face it, when you're into a character - and I mean IN to a character, that character becomes a part of you.  You bring that character to life.  That's an opportunity reserved for writers, artists and actors.  Armageddon gives us the opportunity to escape from monotony, learn and make some friends along the way.  I'm becoming more and more disheartened to see that process become discarded due to lack of respect for the foundation of the game.

I would really like to come back to the game.  I would really truly like to.  (After this criticism I may not be wanted back).  But my enthusiasm for it is really waning to the point I don't know if I ever will.  If I don't come back I felt those things at least needed to be said if I bow out permanently.

I'd really like to see a coherent mission statement from the staff.  I think it'd clear up a lot of misunderstandings and help ensure that staff and players were working toward a common goal.

I think that a lot of the conflict regarding Arm revolves around misunderstandings and poor communication.

Quote from: staggerlee on February 09, 2009, 12:56:20 AM
I think that a lot of the conflict regarding Arm revolves around misunderstandings and poor communication.

Quote from: Majikal on February 09, 2009, 01:03:57 AM

Quote from: staggerlee on February 09, 2009, 12:56:20 AM
I think that a lot of the conflict regarding Arm revolves around misunderstandings and poor communication.

Quote from: jhunter on February 09, 2009, 01:11:26 AM

Quote from: Majikal on February 09, 2009, 01:03:57 AM

Quote from: staggerlee on February 09, 2009, 12:56:20 AM
I think that a lot of the conflict regarding Arm revolves around misunderstandings and poor communication.

I guess I should also state that I've not seen what you're describing, Bebop, though I think criticisms like this help the game, and help us gain perspective as well.

Quote from: Lakota on February 09, 2009, 02:06:20 AM
Some obvious things, some asinine things...far too many things.

I thought her post was long.

For what it's worth, we can criticise someone's point of view without making personal attacks. If Bebop doesn't like where the game is headed, then she can say it without getting a bunch of shit sprayed on her.

Yeah, I don't see any of the listed problems as actually being problems.

Of course, I don't really get into the social aspect of the game much.

Rest assured:  the "wandering around a harsh, unforgiving deserted wasteland killing shit to survive" aspect of the game is just great :)

Except for the defense nerf, but I'm all cried out about that.  Maybe one more tear.  :'(

As for the post itself, I think she did make a couple of good points. Though I honestly think most of what was brought up were non-issues.

1. Immortals

Yes, IMMs can be dicks. Even though 90% of my immteractions has been positive. At least one immortal has achieved some kind of legendary bogeyman status. Which kind of makes me ::). Even though I appreciate the work they do for the game (and on my special apps). My best guess is that they occupuy some sort of good-cop bad-cop kind of role in which they are the bad-cop that comes out to do all the dirty work.

I've also had an immortal accuse me of trying to trick them into giving me a stat boost. Kind of laughable when I look back at it. But I did actually take it personally at the time.

I think that overall the immortals are great. Even though I've had a couple of bad expieriences.

I don't think that any of the new immortals are trying to drive the game in a certain direction. That happens naturally.

2. Elitism

The second issue is the ooc community. I hope I'm just paranoid, but I've noticed a few ooc cliques appear in and around the game. Including immortals. I think this is what Bebop was getting at. It wouldn't be hard to imagine that the character or future characters might benefit for being a part of these ooc cliques.

I would agree with her that this is an "elephant in the room" and not discussed at all really.

I do disagree with her that nobody should be docked karma for ooc interactions. If someone is spreading ic sensitive info oocly, they should get their nipples cut off and have them ritually burned.

I also disagree that criticisms of the immortals or the elites immediately get squashed and suffer karma loss. If I thought that would happen, I would leave the game.

It's all mansa's fault.

Quote from: Jingo on February 09, 2009, 02:36:01 AM
For what it's worth, we can criticise someone's point of view without making personal attacks. If Bebop doesn't like where the game is headed, then she can say it without getting a bunch of shit sprayed on her.

QFT

What I'm wondering is, why do you care enough to spend all this time typing out a long post to criticize a game that you say you aren't playing anymore?  ???

Quote from: Tallulah on February 09, 2009, 05:29:14 AM
What I'm wondering is, why do you care enough to spend all this time typing out a long post to criticize a game that you say you aren't playing anymore?  ???

Looks like anger. I could understand what she's getting at.

But IMHO, it looks like some people take the game too seriously. I mean, relax. It's just a game.. cheating, biased referees, winning or losing, it's still just a game. I would hate to be good enough at this game to care about how the imms treat me. IMHO, I'm happy that the imms put so much effort at all into the game. It's extraordinarily rare to find any game out there where you can do a stat request, heck, even e-mail one of the people in charge of the game and have them affect it. What's even more amazing is that the game is free. I'm happy if it means that my character is an object to be played with just as long as the game's free.

Appreciate the little things more. With almost every other game in the world - if you e-mailed the people who created it with a suggestion, you will not get a response in a week. There are loads of walkthroughs and exploits that ruin the game for everyone, especially for games like DoTA and Fallout. That is carefully, almost fanatically guarded against in Armageddon. Even with all the OOC things happening, it's nothing near as bad as in any other game.

Look at it from the bright side and just have fun. And if you can't, there are dozens of other great RPIs out there.

This is the part of your post I disagree with most strongly.

Quote from: BebopThis game has a foundation.  The past has been successful.  The previous IMMs helped make this game what it is.  Suddenly it seems the entire game is being flushed out for a new one.

Recent code changes as well as policy changes to the game tend to prove what you say above is false. There is a great amount of attention on the current game. I haven't been around as long as you have (almost two years now) but maybe that helps me to provide a more current view. I invite you to take a look at staff announcements and code changes, and you will see that the staff does care about us and the game we currently play. There are also pretty rapid responses on e-mails despite the new change to storytelling. This can't be proven by us telling you, though. You'd have to jump in the game and see for yourself that these changes are good overall.

QuoteA new one that had no guarantee to be as successful with new IMMs that did not initially help this game become what it was.  I feel there is a general lack of focus and game is degrading because of that.

You have to realize that new staff are old players. So let's fix your sentence up a bit:

"A new [game] that had no guarantee to be as successful with old players that did not initially help this game become what it was."

I beg to differ. Old players helped this game become what it was as much as old staffers have. Therefore, I see no problem with focus or a degrading game.

I believe that Bebop's perspective has things to offer.  I would consider it an excellent exit-interview.  I am not saying that I agree with her perspective, but I do believe that it should be valued as honest and considered within its context.  I hope that it will be.  Bebop has obviously been involved in parts of the game that I have not.

I would appreciate it if people would respond to Bebop's concerns with a bit of compassion, if not agreement.  She has clearly been a part of this community for a while, and a committed member, at that.  If her post reflects bias, I can hardly fault her for that.  Leaving a community in which one is so entangled with would be an emotional time for anyone.

Defending Arm does not mean "defeating Bebop" but rather looking at what her position has to offer the community, and what it does not.  Bebop is not "the enemy" unless she is a personal enemy anyway.  The changes that have happened to Arm, that are bound to happen over time, are not ones that will make all the players happy.  Some will leave.  New ones will come.  But flaming arguments can hardly improve the noted situation of OOC cliques.  Taking her "attack" on Arm personally is not a solution to any problem.

So please, let's take a step back, take a few deep breaths, and get on with the game that is Armageddon.

Morrolan


--edit: please note that my post is now somewhat superfluous, because the posts I was generally responding to have been removed.

Quote from: Jingo on February 09, 2009, 03:13:10 AM
The second issue is the ooc community. I hope I'm just paranoid, but I've noticed a few ooc cliques appear in and around the game. Including immortals. I think this is what Bebop was getting at. It wouldn't be hard to imagine that the character or future characters might benefit for being a part of these ooc cliques.

Cliquishness, or some appearance of it, is inevitable as long as we have sponsored/apped roles, and unless the staff get buried in bureaucracy designed to prevent it.  Each staff member is surely going to wind up with mental lists:
- Who are the most colorful roleplayers?
- Who's good at in-game leadership?
- Who tends to ignore documentation or otherwise play unrealistically?  (By this I mean twinking, and by twinking I mean kittens.)
- Who stirs up headaches for me outside the game ("subpar OOC communication")?

So long as the staff keep some checks on each other and are mindful of their own occasional fallibility, this isn't a particularly bad thing.

Disagree with each other.
Disagree with the staff if you'd like.

Don't break forum rules and flame people.

I'd be more than happy to temporarily remove posting privileges from people who break those rules.
If you want to respond to the OP, please do so in a nicer manner.  It is possible to disagree with someone without being a dick about it.
If you want to respond to people criticizing your posts, please do so in a nicer manner.  It is possible to disagree with someone without being a dick about it.
If you don't want criticism for the things you write and publish in an internet forum, do not post them there.

Whoa... there's a lot going on in this thread.  There's a lot of good points about imperfections the game has.  Too much for me to comment on at the moment, hehe.

One thing I will say, though, is that people always miss the "Good Old Days" of anything.  Bebop, you miss the good old days of people hating on magickers and throwing drinks at their ungemmed mates (me too, those days were fun!  ;D), but back then I know a lot of players missed the good old days of the Tuluki Rebellion, and back then I'm sure there were people who missed the good old days of clerics and PC mantis hanging out in the Gaj.

It's nostalgia, and I think it's natural and unavoidable.  Even if things do shift back towards past levels of magicker-hate or a new rebellion, it won't feel the same as anyone's memories.

You even said as much yourself:

QuoteBut after playing for four years, I'm very disappointed to find myself well, disappointed and a little bit jaded.  My perspective of Armageddon is tarnished

Your lack of enjoyment of the game is partly your own fault too, not just a result of the changes that have occurred.  Temper your attachment to the past and perhaps you can once again enjoy Armageddon for what it is now.
(Please don't take that as a mocking of your beliefs, I'm a fan of Buddhism myself.  My dad decided to become a Buddhist in recent years too.)

Re: OOC Chat Rooms

To give some context, the chat rooms were designed before Arm 2 was announced as a proof of concept for the engine that Arm 2 engine uses.  Aside from some cosmetic changes it has remained unchanged for years.  Despite any appearances to the contrary, Armageddon 2 is far more than just a chat room.

The staff has not announced what the player facing side of the chat rooms will be.  For now they are used as a means of communication for staff and we plan to utilize them for newbie helping and for player/staff meetings like the one held last Saturday.  We may or may not open it up to allow players to chat, but if we do there will be two rules:

1) You won't be able to be in the game and in the chat rooms.

2) Everything will be logged and reviewed for abuse of OOC knowledge.

Stepping aside from the standard staff message, my view of the OOC chat rooms is as a place for staff and players to meet and talk in a more informal manner, as well as allow people to grow as a community like they do here on the GDB.   A place for players to organize outside of the game without having to know the latest IM or chat channel technology.  It's built into the engine. 

However, this is my view, and may not necessarily be what comes to pass.  I imagine at a minimum it will be used for staff, newbie helping and player/staff meetings.

I really fail to see how increased communication between staff and players (chat rooms) could be a bad thing.  Aren't we all clamoring for more communication with staff and more transparency?  I for one appreciate the chat room and the possibility of using it in Arm 2 for easier communication with the staff, etc.

On a second note, while I think "exit surveys" or whatever are useful (just like the "first impressions" threads), the difficulty in publicly posting them is that necessary information is (and must be) left out.  With all context removed, claims/critiques can be read in a very open fashion.  Thus, as a beginner, when I read about OOC cliques excluding players from roles, etc., what runs through -my- mind is "Gee, yeah, I could see the frustration if one felt that one wasn't being allowed to play a half-giant or a krathi or something due to behind the scenes politics."  However, in a post now removed so I won't get specific, it was revealed what roles Bebop has been playing.  Roles that made my jaw drop.  Trust me, as someone with ZERO karma, I wouldn't be angry if I was so thoroughly excluded as to be given top karma, spec app-only roles like that.  For now, I'm eagerly looking forward to the day when I can play a d-elf. 

Quote from: Thunkkin on February 09, 2009, 10:58:36 AM
I really fail to see how increased communication between staff and players (chat rooms) could be a bad thing.  Aren't we all clamoring for more communication with staff and more transparency?  I for one appreciate the chat room and the possibility of using it in Arm 2 for easier communication with the staff, etc.

On a second note, while I think "exit surveys" or whatever are useful (just like the "first impressions" threads), the difficulty in publicly posting them is that necessary information is (and must be) left out.  With all context removed, claims/critiques can be read in a very open fashion.  Thus, as a beginner, when I read about OOC cliques excluding players from roles, etc., what runs through -my- mind is "Gee, yeah, I could see the frustration if one felt that one wasn't being allowed to play a half-giant or a krathi or something due to behind the scenes politics."  However, in a post now removed so I won't get specific, it was revealed what roles Bebop has been playing.  Roles that made my jaw drop.  Trust me, as someone with ZERO karma, I wouldn't be angry if I was so thoroughly excluded as to be given top karma, spec app-only roles like that.  For now, I'm eagerly looking forward to the day when I can play a d-elf. 

What bebop was saying, is that only a select few people will be using the chat rooms and they will, by nature, enforce cliquishness. Not everyone even uses the GDB, they just play the game. And those players should be getting just as much attention as people who aren't playing the 'OOC game' as she calls it.

You kind of just enforced her point with the second paragraph(I think...*shrug*). Obviously she -was- playing the 'OOC game', and was winning al la her garnering such high karma roles. But now she's on the losing side, and as such, is sick of the 'OOC game'.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 09, 2009, 12:16:24 PM
Obviously she -was- playing the 'OOC game', and was winning al la her garnering such high karma roles.

Or maybe... just maybe... she earned them.  Through trustworthiness and good RP.  Maybe.   ::)

Yeah, hence the (I think... *shrug*)

I was thinking what I said was her point, not mine.

I just don't understand what the big deal is with the new fad of "Here is why I don't play Armageddon, and when you fix these issues, maybe you'll gain me back as a player" threads lately.

Many points that Bebop has made, I think are valid. Likewise, there are some that I believe only a few people actually see anyways, and perhaps are either a moot point, or something that only affects a small percentage of the entire player base. I remember Momma Gimfy and her Player Stats threads a while back, and we usually get like 200 unique logins a month (If not more, my brain is stupid). If 15 people are experiencing some OOC politics, or favoritism that affects others play, thats actually not TOO bad.

I've only recently started playing characters that aren't entirely code based (TWINKS) and focus more on personal relationships and the like. I havn't noticed a problem at -all-, except that if I don't know them OOCly, its hard to know when they are around to talk to.


Passing that:

Quote from: Marauder Moe on February 09, 2009, 10:07:00 AM
It's nostalgia, and I think it's natural and unavoidable.  Even if things do shift back towards past levels of magicker-hate or a new rebellion, it won't feel the same as anyone's memories.

I think Moe has it, right here. I'm a HUGE fan of nostalgia. Whenever I hear stories of the "Game of Old" I get chills down my spine about "How cool it must have been to play back then". I love nostalgia in real life too. I hate modern cartoons. But you know what? Now I watch sitcoms, and excellent adult-themed TV shows aimed at my generation. Maybe this is what old Armers need to try to do; accept that the old days are over, and look for something themed at them (Or, if they don't exist, beg the imms for it!)

Communication:  Staff can be curt.  Especially when you were expecting a paragraph instead of a sentance, this can be offputting, but I think you get used to it, once you change expectations.  That is as close to un-professionalism as I have seen, even when I was getting a beat down.

New Imms vs Old Imms:  I haven't noticed a problem, except that I can't play like I did 10-12 years ago and expect the same response from the staff.  However, this is just my perception, and although I would think it would apply more to new Imms than old ones, I don't know for sure.  For example, certain interactions felt like the staff was expecting me to use think or email them my activities.  I've been playing since long before think, much less feel, and I still hate it with a passion, refusing to use it more than minimally.  And I have never consistenty emailed staff.  Yet, now, as opposed to 10+ years ago, that seems to be the expectation.  New Imms might not have that perspective, but who really knows.

Chat Rooms:  Maybe all my misconceptions about staff in the previous paragraph will be cleared up if there was a way aside from APM to have actual conversations with staff.  Maybe not, too.

Some points are valid, some points not so much. I am going to be blunt however.

Paying attention to OOC gossip will ruin the game for anyone, especially since 99.999% of it is negative bullshit. There is a reason hardly anybody has contact with me - because I have no desire to get involved in the OOC popularity contest that absolutely does exist outside the game. It is possible to survive and thrive without paying attention to it. Yes, sometimes it sucks when you're dealing with things IC that seem to be a result of an OOC grudge, but them's the breaks.

During a situation IC which you didn't like you started complaining through OOC and turned what could have been a decent scene into one of the most OOCly painful and awkward situations I've RPd out  - I had been unaware of certain aspects and you were unaware of certain others, but I could not and would not bend IC events for someone's OOC temper-tantrum. Sorry.

I have enjoyed playing with your characters in the past, so I know you are capable of fun and engaging RP. Pay less attention to the game behind the game and keep IC things IC, and I guarantee you will start enjoying yourself again.

You need to seriously evaluate how you approach and view the game before you keep pointing out flaws you perceive in it.

Well, Bebop did not say anything new, but should we really blame her for repeating things over and over, if problems still remain.

Clan shifting idea was supposed to expand staff's knowledge of the world beyond the clans they are familiar with as players. I have no reason to think that it works, or at least it did not work always and did not work with everyone. I see flaws in idea itself, because documentation is nothing until you actually try to play up to it with your character, impression that you would play the role better is often an illusion until you actually try to pull it. If, one reason or another, staffer had no interest in playing clan, they would forever suck at managing it, IMO.

It is not news that staff and players come and go, but the current pace of recycling staff members is fairly recent concept. So, the problem of adapting to new clan bosses is not new problem, it just became more widespread.
...
I am going to skip IC-spreading and fingerpointing phases and will jump to a wishing part. It would be cool, guys, if after taking new appointment you would give some time for players to adapt to your style. Writing posts like "I see things that way..." on the clan board would be a good start. If documentation is outdated, replace it first, before writing notes to accounts for following it. If you feel that situation is out of control, use the approach utilized by some female staffers, post a warning like "I have noticed...do not do it". That's fairly decent approach if your aim is to right the wrong, not to post as many negative comments as possible. Keep in mind that sometimes things you see and do not like are blessed or at least accepted by former staff, so bluntly tossing your authority around might not work the way you want it to. If you start enforcing your policy by jumping on players one by one, your stupid approach itself diminishes whatever bright ideas you may have in mind.

Many of staff members are cool about publicity and I see alot of improvement in that area. Let's take Morgenes as example. Short announcement of changes and a thread for discussion are not much of a brainer, but it works. I found many of his changes, namely to sneaky activities, to be repulsive at first glance. But when the door is not closed, when changes are not carved in stone I had all time in the world to explore them thorougly, to recognise new opportunities, to find some swesomeness in idea. Open discussion often makes critique unnecessary. Is not it simple, is not it cool?

On a side note, I am sure that if announcement and fair discussion could have taken place years ago with certain changes to combat, certain player would not be as obsessed with "nerfed defense" as he is now.

What Bebop said about new generations of staff not remembering what things are made for, is not new and it's obvious and it is basically admitted, hense the staff wiki. What happens to concept, when there is no one willing to support it, is known, suffice to look at city-elves. There are many rotten corpses through the world which staff can't find use for, other than destroying them in the course of IC events. It sucks when half of the world are ruins on a dead background, while staff continues to spawn pokemons with no root and history whatsoever to entertain masses. There is nothing that can be done to recover what is lost, but it is still worth a critique, IMO, so the problem won't repeat itself.

On a slightly related note, there is a post from LoD there in discussion about Villians
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,34282.25.html

If all of us agree that "creating fun for other players" is not an excuse for new player to screw his character's development and make one-dimensional plots that can be described as simply as "Charge!", than it should not be excuse for anyone, staff included.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AM
I don't think players or IMMs should so much concern themselves with if the person criticizing is good at doing so constructively so much as if their criticism has validity instead of ultimately punishing that person if you don't agree or if they come off in a way you don't like.

I think that this is entirely untrue. You must be able to make your comments critical, objective and clear, particularly if you're hoping for changes. Presentation and clarity in your comments is absolutely essential. Ideas alone are not enough, you also have to make them heard, and convince someone to address them in a positive manner.

There's been a lot of posts already on how to get heard, but I've got a couple recommendations:

-Be concise.
-Be clear.
-Consider the tone you're using.
-Proofread/edit.
-Consider feedback.

Other than that, I mostly agree with StangeShadow, the biggest thing that we as players can do is adjust our own attitudes. You can't force the game to stay the same, players and staff to remain, or for any of it to subscribe to your own expectations.  People will read the documentation differently, disagreements will happen. We can strive for greater communication, but if you approach things with the wrong attitude the game will never be anything but frustrating.

Also, if you have, as you say, been playing for over four years... maybe it's just time to step back for a bit, think about your relationship with the game and what you want for the future. That's a very, very long time to play a game.

If I had a nickle for how many times I've been told how much someone misses a retired Staff member (most notably Tlaloc with the Byn) I'd have a fuck load of nickles.

I agree that changes with staff are affecting the playerbase in a big way, in that many established, veteran players simply don't like some of the changes being made and leaving.

I remember as a new player starting this game, I read in the docs that magickers are supposed to be feared, distrusted, sometimes even hated, etc., etc., so I tried that.

It didn't blow over so well.

I was always under the impression that southerners and northerners aren't really supposed to like eachother, yet I see them palling around all the time.

Where are all the blunt, rough and tumble southerner Gaj-goers who pick fights with elves and gemmers to pass time?

How come I've got notherners I've never met buying my 'Rinthi shit-kicker drinks in the Sanctuary?

I dunno, hearing what everyone told me about the game before playing it, and actually playing it are starting to seem a little contradictory.

Maybe it's just me.

-shrug-

Quote from: Qzzrbl on February 09, 2009, 02:45:56 PM
If I had a nickle for how many times I've been told how much someone misses a retired Staff member (most notably Tlaloc with the Byn) I'd have a fuck load of nickles.

I agree that changes with staff are affecting the playerbase in a big way, in that many established, veteran players simply don't like some of the changes being made and leaving.

I remember as a new player starting this game, I read in the docs that magickers are supposed to be feared, distrusted, sometimes even hated, etc., etc., so I tried that.

It didn't blow over so well.

I was always under the impression that southerners and northerners aren't really supposed to like eachother, yet I see them palling around all the time.

Where are all the blunt, rough and tumble southerner Gaj-goers who pick fights with elves and gemmers to pass time?

How come I've got notherners I've never met buying my 'Rinthi shit-kicker drinks in the Sanctuary?

I dunno, hearing what everyone told me about the game before playing it, and actually playing it are starting to seem a little contradictory.

Maybe it's just me.

-shrug-

Dude, it's because the easiest way to kill someone nowadays is to fake-befriend them and sweet-talk them into going into an apartment with you.  If you start out talking shit, that pretty much blows your chances of ever getting an easy PK.   ::)

Quote from: Qzzrbl on February 09, 2009, 02:45:56 PM
Where are all the blunt, rough and tumble southerner Gaj-goers who pick fights with elves and gemmers to pass time?
-shrug-

Sorry, it's been a while since I made a character in 'nak.

It seems to me a lot of the people who don't like rotational staff are also the people who were long time players.  I think to me that means people are remembering the 'good old days' for all the wrong reason.  So maybe you were in X clan and it was awesome with Y staffer. Though that's kind of the reason that such a system probably got put into place in the first place.  If you took this in the worst possible light maybe Y staffer felt attached to the clan and treated it like a pet, you enjoyed your experience because you guys got all sorts of favors and treats from your sponsoring staff.  Or in the best possible light, maybe you just happened to have the staffer who had enough time to dedicate every second to the clan.  That would be exactly the problem with static clan staffing, while one clan might of been awesome, others suffered and clans received advantages and disadvantages based entirely on the ooc fact of whom their staff happened to be, rather than ic reasons.  I assure you some of us real old time players can talk about some of the horrors of static staffing. 

So does rotational staffing have some flaws? Sure, every system has it's pros and cons, but taken into perspective, this system is better than the good old days.  At least it's more balanced.

Quote from: Qzzrbl on February 09, 2009, 02:45:56 PM
I remember as a new player starting this game, I read in the docs that magickers are supposed to be feared, distrusted, sometimes even hated, etc. ... that southerners and northerners aren't really supposed to like each other ... southerner Gaj-goers who pick fights with elves and gemmers to pass time...

All these things happen, just with a little more sophistication than some folks may want.  It's just as jarring when people caricature these behaviors as when they bury them, and potentially more destructive to the Story.

Quote from: brytta.leofa on February 09, 2009, 03:11:20 PM

Quote from: Qzzrbl on February 09, 2009, 02:45:56 PM
I remember as a new player starting this game, I read in the docs that magickers are supposed to be feared, distrusted, sometimes even hated, etc. ... that southerners and northerners aren't really supposed to like each other ... southerner Gaj-goers who pick fights with elves and gemmers to pass time...

It's just as jarring when people caricature these behaviors as when they bury them, and potentially more destructive to the Story.

I disagree with this entirely. I'd rather see overreaction that cater to the documentation, than the opposite. When all people see is the mage-loving, and not the 'bring said mage back to apartment to kill them' part of the story, it just further promotes said reactions.


Edited to add: Mage loving just one example, of course.

Quote from: Synthesis on February 09, 2009, 02:50:35 PM

Quote from: Qzzrbl on February 09, 2009, 02:45:56 PM
If I had a nickle for how many times I've been told how much someone misses a retired Staff member (most notably Tlaloc with the Byn) I'd have a fuck load of nickles.

I agree that changes with staff are affecting the playerbase in a big way, in that many established, veteran players simply don't like some of the changes being made and leaving.

I remember as a new player starting this game, I read in the docs that magickers are supposed to be feared, distrusted, sometimes even hated, etc., etc., so I tried that.

It didn't blow over so well.

I was always under the impression that southerners and northerners aren't really supposed to like eachother, yet I see them palling around all the time.

Where are all the blunt, rough and tumble southerner Gaj-goers who pick fights with elves and gemmers to pass time?

How come I've got notherners I've never met buying my 'Rinthi shit-kicker drinks in the Sanctuary?

I dunno, hearing what everyone told me about the game before playing it, and actually playing it are starting to seem a little contradictory.

Maybe it's just me.

-shrug-

Dude, it's because the easiest way to kill someone nowadays is to fake-befriend them and sweet-talk them into going into an apartment with you.  If you start out talking shit, that pretty much blows your chances of ever getting an easy PK.   ::)

I know.

>~<

I thought only Tuluk was supposed to be so subtle?

It's just annoying when every fucking person in the game (including brutish Bynners who barely have a grip on basic mathematical addition) who isn't genuine, is a mastermind double-timer who knows how to flawlessly read body language and eye movements to detect motives.

Seriously, roll up some blunt, "I'll kick your ass!" characters!

They're fun, I swear.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 09, 2009, 03:14:47 PMI disagree with this entirely. I'd rather see overreaction that cater to the documentation, than the opposite. When all people see is the mage-loving, and not the 'bring said mage back to apartment to kill them' part of the story, it just further promotes said reactions.

Edited to add: Mage loving just one example, of course.

I'm sorry to be abetting the thread-drift, but as a new player, my conclusion is: screw the docs, I'm following the players. (Other than that, I'm way too new to comment intelligently, and will just say that I've been thrilled by the other players' willingness to enter into any RP I throw at them, and that my clanless, skill-free PC has more trouble avoiding plots than getting involved in them. Partly this is perhaps because I lucked into an RP-friendly role, but at this point, for this newbie, I could care less about the staff. It's the players who keep me coming back.)

 ::) Do you see my point, Brytta? It's causing new players like Lou to completely disregard the documents, which is most definitely a bad thing.


Lou. Don't disregard the docs. Seriously, they have made the game what it is, and slipping away from that is exactly what Bebop was talking about. It's changing it for the worse, trust me.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 09, 2009, 03:46:36 PM
::) Do you see my point, Brytta? It's causing new players like Lou to completely disregard the documents, which is most definitely a bad thing.


Lou. Don't disregard the docs. Seriously, they have made the game what it is, and slipping away from that is exactly what Bebop was talking about. It's changing it for the worse, trust me.

As a player of 18+ years, here are my comments pertaining to the points made by the OP:

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AM
In the time I've been playing while the staff correspondences here are significantly better than some other online gaming communities I find there is still a significant lack of professionalism.  E-mails are not returned on time.  Roles are offered and players are not responded to for weeks or months.  IMMs can be short, sarcastic and even cruel in communication on the GDB and e-mail - definitely they are bias.

My perception has been that some players today have a horrible sense of entitlement when it comes to the roles that they choose/want to play.  Special applications may well be one of the worst culprits for breeding many of the issues you describe above, including the feelings of frustration when players' apps are rejected or not answered in a timely manner.  If you whipper-snappers can believe it, we old timers were actually forced to come up with character concepts that didn't require any special skills, special setup, special languages, special starting locations, special bank accounts, or special clothes/items.

Constructive criticism regarding how the Staff communicates with the Players is always valuable, however, it's important to understand that many times that biased, curt, or delayed reply is coming off the heels of a Staff member that's just dealt with their 3rd twink of the hour, answered their 20th wish, and had their latest special app clan leader wander into the woods to die, or suddenly decide to store.  Your request may be completely appropriate, polite, and timely -- but even the cleanest of shirts can seem like trash when it gets lumped in with the garbage.

Dealing with the lowest common denominator forces one to sweep with broad strokes -- and that doesn't always make for careful house cleaning.  It's not an excuse, it's just a reality.  And one of the most useful tools that I've ever learned about being happy playing Armageddon is to manage your expectations.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AM
Though many of the immortals have come in and done an amazing job I have a very huge concern about seniority.  There is a real lack of seniority right now.  Many IMMs that were around when I first started playing seem to have fallen away.  New IMMs are being introduced more and more, sometimes when I am in a clan I get a response from an IMM that I had never heard of, is not listed as an IMM for my clan and an IMM I never heard announced.  This game has a foundation.  The past has been successful.  The previous IMMs helped make this game what it is.  Suddenly it seems the entire game is being flushed out for a new one.  A new one that had no guarantee to be as successful with new IMMs that did not initially help this game become what it was.

Your past is barely even my present.  That statement isn't to declare your point invalid, but to point out that perspective has a lot to do with how you interpret your surroundings.  The game has come a long way from where it began, and I would be hard pressed to hand any one staff member with a trophy engraved with, "Most Responsible for Armageddon's Success".  It has, and always will be, a collaboration that remembers the past while planning for the future.  There are tens of Imms you never even had a chance to know that have come and gone long before the ones you miss even started their position.

We've also been in a state of flux for the last 1.5 years or so, somewhere between the current game and its new incarnation.  What I hear most in the tone of your critique is fear of the unknown, and that's a very difficult topic to effectively debate.  It's understandable, but it's not always rational or logical.  That makes it a very touchy subject for all parties involved.  It forces us to become hyper-critical of people and subjects that would otherwise have been ignored, because the only thing that we can cling to against the unknown is faith.

Faith that the current Staff will remember the past while planning the future.  Faith that current Players will honor the past while accepting the future.  And questions of faith can be consuming.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AM
Armageddon is an OOC game.  One may not notice it at first in the early stages of "newbdom."  But one quickly begins to understand that one must participate in an OOC game along with the IC one.

This is completely untrue, as a rule.  You do not need to participate in the OOC game in order to succeed or to achieve something of merit within the framework of the game.  That doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, but to make a blanket statement like this smacks of rejection and dissatisfaction in one's personal position rather than an objective critique of the system.

As long as we have, or make, friends -- there will be cliques.  That's all they are.  They are collections of people who feel a familiar and comfortable bond with other humans because of shared experiences, shared desires, and shared opinions.  These groups provide advantages and disadvantages. 

They serve to strengthen the community and provide the basis for many friendships and even relationships that blossom from intimate exposure to one another.  They also serve to undermine and cheapen the experience in-game, spoiling the secrets, unraveling the mysteries, and encouraging biased or unnatural behavior based on OOC input/information.

There is an extremely fine line between maintaining game-related friendships and exploiting game-related networks.  It's quite possible for one to drift into the other without even noticing.  However, the existence of these OOC friendships, relationships, and networks does not mean that they are necessary, or even integral, to achieving goals in-game.

Ultimately, you are responsible for the fun you take away from the game.  You.  Not your friends, not your clan mantes, not the staff members, but you.  I have made several changes to my expectations and behavior in order to glean from the game the elements that I most enjoy.  Sometimes these changes have come about naturally, while other times they have been influenced by events inside and outside of the game.

We're each responsible for our own enjoyment of the game and have to be realistic when managing our expectations.  You have to be honest and careful with yourself; it's more difficult than it sounds.  Some people will be successful and play here for many years.  Some people will end up leaving the game after their first major disagreement or disappointment.

Which you will be is largely up to...you.

-LoD

It's kind of life.  You can't expect things to never change.  Did you stop to think that if Armageddon never changed, that you might just get bored and jaded, and leave the game with the complaint that you've been everywhere and done everything, and need something new?

Quote from: Tallulah on February 09, 2009, 07:15:00 PM
It's kind of life.  You can't expect things to never change.  Did you stop to think that if Armageddon never changed, that you might just get bored and jaded, and leave the game with the complaint that you've been everywhere and done everything, and need something new?

I'd rather it grow stagnant than change into something completely different from what drew me to the game in the first place.

Just throw in a little more grit and harshness, and I'm sure alot of people will be happy.

Another thing about grit and harshness....

Being "gritty" and "harsh" tends to make people not like you, which in turn gets you killed (one way or another).

There are very few roles where you have a reasonable chance to survive to become a long-lived, complex, well-developed character, while being gritty and harsh the entire time.  Perhaps the Byn is really the only good example (and even then, the Byn has a way of getting even the most experienced bad-ass warriors killed).

Note:  I'm not saying it's impossible to survive a long time while being a bastard...I'm saying that it's statistically highly unlikely, and that therefore most people probably tend to play the safe hand:  "live and let live...until the templars say otherwise."

Quote from: Synthesis on February 09, 2009, 07:38:29 PM
Another thing about grit and harshness....

Being "gritty" and "harsh" tends to make people not like you, which in turn gets you killed (one way or another).

There are very few roles where you have a reasonable chance to survive to become a long-lived, complex, well-developed character, while being gritty and harsh the entire time.  Perhaps the Byn is really the only good example (and even then, the Byn has a way of getting even the most experienced bad-ass warriors killed).

Note:  I'm not saying it's impossible to survive a long time while being a bastard...I'm saying that it's statistically highly unlikely, and that therefore most people probably tend to play the safe hand:  "live and let live...until the templars say otherwise."

Before playing, I was always told that I would probably just get away with a beating if I started a character and summarily started being an asshole to everyone.

Now, it seems though, everyone takes it upon themselves to defend their honor to the death, something that usually drove me away from every other MUD I've played.

Ha, you got told wrong.

This has always been a PK first, ask questions later type of game, once the first cross words have been spoken.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AM

Armageddon is an OOC Game - Politics and Elitism.

This is my final point and my largest.  Armageddon is an OOC game.  One may not notice it at first in the early stages of "newbdom."  But one quickly begins to understand that one must participate in an OOC game along with the IC one.  Is it worth it?  It might be - until you lose the OOC side and it begins to effect the IC.

The entire karma system is currently set up in a way that players are punished if their OOC communication is not up to par.  Even so much that it stifles progress in the game because players can not offer up due criticism for fear of being nerfed on special application or leadership roles.  This is a very real problem.  It's an obvious problem.  And it's something that is disgusted on the various OOC channels of communication every single day.

I just wanted to address this portion of your post because I have strong feelings about the OOC side of the game.

I, for all intents and purposes, am a 'purist' when it comes to this aspect of the game.  I really dislike any OOC comnunication between players that has anything to do with the game.  I especially dislike hearing about things personally.  The reason is I want to experience the game first-hand and have those experiences be completely novel.  This way, they have their full impact and I can glean the highest enjoyment I can out of them.  It's really the same reason why I, or anyone else, doesn't want to hear about what happened in that movie, or that novel.  It ruins the element of surprise when you know what to expect and no longer feels like you're experiencing the present, ever-moving timeline of the game world.  But even when the OOC communcation isn't flowing to me and is going between other players, I really feel that those players are doing a disservice to others.  Anyone that has dealings with said players will come away with an experience that isn't necessarily the same product that would have been if they were playing as those who had no outside communication.  This resulting loss of purity in the player environment also tempts other players to do the same for various reasons - perhaps notably to 'level the playing field' to gain whatever real or perceived advantages that comes with that sort of meta gaming.

That said, there are of course many innocent OOC interactions between players that goes on all the time and these are certainly healthy for the game and it's supporting community.  Still, I do my best to stay out of it as you never know when someone, even if totally unintentionally, makes a slip.  Even the smallest tidbit of information can ruin something huge.

All of the above goes for staff as well.  For the most part I rarely communicate with staff save for if they've asked for a submission/report or what have you - and that is quite rare.

So for the most part, I have avoided the whole 'OOC game' during my years of play here.

Now to the point of my post - despite not being involved at all with this aspect of the game, I have been awarded karma on multiple occasions over the years.  The karma awards have been spotty and strange - going by the karma page on the website, I am missing a couple of intermediary points on the scale for no reason.  You might guess this is because I special apped some karma class/races and were subsequently awarded the karma to play them, but that's not the case.  I've actually never played any karma-level characters save for a brief d-elf or two up until very recently.  The point is, I've been slowly accumulating this karma over the years.

I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, but I just wanted to let you and everyone else know that the situation isn't quite as dire as you've painted it in your post.  I have not requested feedback or put up the review flag before.  I've not had any special apps approved and played (though I did submit one last year that was rejected because of quota reasons at the time).  Again, I rarely communicate with staff.  I have mostly played in clans, so perhaps that does give my characters some consistent in-game exposure to staff, but I've only ever played two PC's in leadership positions.  And of course, I've never been involved in any player/staff cliques or anything of the like.   It could be that both you and I are exceptions on opposite ends of the scale, but I find that a little doubtful.  Would I be rejected out of hand for a specific leadership/special app position because I don't talk to staff or run in player cliques?  I don't know, but I'd like to believe that wouldn't be the case.  I did request my account notes last year when I took a break from the game just for curiosity's sake and I didn't see any notes on there that had anything to do with communication/OOC relationships.

So here's my two cents.  It's been my personal experience over the years that one doesn't have to play the 'OOC game' to 'get ahead' in Armageddon.  As far as I can tell, I've never been expected to, and I can tell you, I never will.

Quote from: Synthesis on February 09, 2009, 07:53:07 PM
Ha, you got told wrong.

*sigh*

I guess so.

I can empathize a bit because I had a hideous experience with someone and their friend's OOC reaction to being killed ICly. And that ruined things for me for a little while.

Quote from: Synthesis on February 09, 2009, 07:53:07 PM
Ha, you got told wrong.

This has always been a PK first, ask questions later type of game, once the first cross words have been spoken.

This above comment is why I do not play anymore.


I agree with Bebop in that there is an OOC game you must play to get ahead IC.
If you are labeled a Thief, IG, you are black balled all together. Everyone just seems to ignore you, hoping you will go away.
If you are an asshole and are "mean" to the other characters, you get killed. Quickly.
If you are seen as a "twinker," you are black balled and/or killed.


In all my years of plain Janes and Joe Schmoes, I have noticed one thing. If you aren't a sponsored role, players are a kill now, RP later type. People will easily destroy your PC in the most fitting way that destroys your character concept, it is really frustrating. If you are a thief/thug and you want to eventually mug/steal from a PC, it is almost impossible. You are forced to play characters that know everything about their craft. The first time you fuck up and get caught, your character concept is dead. If you are in a sponsored role, people will go out of their way to RP positively with you, and underreact when they should kill you. It drives me crazy. I can't send out enough character complaints when that shit happens. That is why I don't play anymore.

Quote from: Synthesis on February 09, 2009, 07:53:07 PM
This has always been a PK first, ask questions later type of game, once the first cross words have been spoken.

This hasn't been my overall expierience. It happens, but it always comes out contrived. I suspect usually commited by new players or players more concerned about winning rather than roleplaying. It's also the reason I don't play in the 'rinth.

For the record, I've had plenty of conflict that did not include immediate pkilling. It's great. I love extended conflict. I think the game has come a long way in facilitating it.

Minus the lure-into-apartment-lock-door-and-start-hacking incidents that apparantly still happen. Seriously people. You can do better.

I've had good experiences with the game, that don't seem to fit what everyone is complaining about here.
I have my own concerns and frustrations, but these aren't them. We make our own hell.

Quote from: staggerlee on February 09, 2009, 10:29:39 PM
I've had good experiences with the game, that don't seem to fit what everyone is complaining about here.
I have my own concerns and frustrations, but these aren't them. We make our own hell.

Quote from: Jingo on February 09, 2009, 09:35:00 PM
Minus the lure-into-apartment-lock-door-and-start-hacking incidents that apparantly still happen. Seriously people. You can do better.

I've yet to do this myself, but it's an entirely valid tactic --- I think it's rare that a (knive wielding) murderer would try to bring down their victim in a field.

I left Arm about two months ago, and have little desire to return. I'll list my own reasons, as I don't agree with some of Bebop's. Others, however, I do.

Permissive vs. Non-Permissive: Arm, in my opinion, is a very non-permissive environment. It's been my experience that, no matter how good my roleplay there are some things that just won't be accomplished. Most of these things have to do with code - a merchant won't learn how to use a sword. A warrior won't learn how to hide. I'm not sure why the stance on this is the way that it is, but in my opinion, roleplay should be the fundamental goal of any system within the game. Not 'enforcing the harshness of the gameworld' or anything like that. Not enforcing class boundries. The end all of Arm should be to further the player's roleplay experience.

The crux of this particular matter came when I roleplayed out language lessons - eleven hours worth. Taking months, OOCly. Still, no branch of the language. I submitted a request to get it added and was told that - no matter how many logs I submitted, it wasn't going to happen because there was already a coded mechanism in place for this.

Communication: Like others have noted, communication is a cornerstone of a lot of player's problems. I've had the comment made to me that I had inadvertantly completely borked  a staffer's plot - of which I knew nothing about. Staff need to remember that in order for the players to think there is something going on, staff need to give them hints. I don't mean tell them everything - but subtle and not so subtle mentions in emails go a long way.

One thing I like about another RPI MUD I started to play after Arm is that there's a Staff Rumor Thread, where the STAFF posts rumors about what's happening in the clan, or if big enough, the gameworld. That gives me, the player, a framework to shoot for - I know that there's likely some footwork to be done on those plots, and I can put my character in a position to get that footwork done so as to involve other players.

I went back through and counted: I had two emails answered in eight months. Both with less than five words. That's a problem. At one point, my character was walking around with something in his pack that no normal non-noble/templar character should ever, ever possess. I sent in four emails - including two to MUD. No response. Eventually I chucked it in a chest like any other piece of junk, and when I got new staffers someone sent me the email, "Hey - do you still have that?" Heh.

Enabling vs. Disabling: Much like the non-permissiveness of the world, I've felt that my plots were cast aside in favor of imm-created ones. Those that I did attempt to bring about tended to either be ignored, or I was simply told that I couldn't do that, ICly and OOCly.

It's much more interesting and rewarding, especially for someone that plays a long-lived leader, to have staff back them. Wanting to run certain plots just met roadblocks, in some cases I feel because it conflicted with an imm's plan for the character in question, or because the imms wanted my character to do something different. When I, as a leader character, am either not responded to or have my decisions second-guessed by the imms - it makes you question how much of a leader you really are in your clan, if your goals aren't the ones that are being pursued, and your methods are overturned by immortals.

If an imm feels like the main portion of the clan wouldn't go for something - perhaps there's a splinter faction that might support it? We all know that political bodies in Arm are absolutely not black and white, it's my experience that they're portrayed so. I think that all clans need to be better fleshed out in Arm. Many of them, frankly, lack depth, or present far too unifed a front when coming out in disfavor of player ideas.

Attitude:

"There are a lot of different ways that we administer the game, many of which do not involve direct interaction with players.  We are not your servants; we work for the game, not for you." - a staff member

I remember this quote because I winced when I read it. In essense, the reverse is also true - we're here for the game, not for the imms. We aren't actors in your play - we're stars in our own. That's a fundemental tenant of storytelling, whether it's D&D, White Wolf, GURPS or anything else I've ever played. The characters, not the NPCs (the 'game'), are central to the story.

I don't mean to read into this quote - it was a response to a question that I could see might be annoying, to say the least. But in truth, it says to me that there's a basic uncaring attitude about characters and the player's enjoyment of the game.

Other players have brought up tone in emails and such. I think that's been covered, though I haven't had that experience, personally.

Bureacracy: The difficulty of getting anything done with staff feels enormous. A year and a half ago I wrote sixteen pages of documentation for a clan that had never been played before. It took two months to get the prelim approval - from my clan staff - to use them, they asked for revisions. I revised them several times, emailed them in as I was asked... nothing ever got done about it.

Players want to affect the gameworld in a positive manner. When they're prevented from doing so because the staff have to continually get approval from upstairs, that's very discouraging.  I'd rather this process be streamlined and I'd rather players be encouraged to create for Arm. To write documentation, to flesh out the world and the tribes and the cities. Yes - with the understanding that not all of it is going to be used. But, to be quite frank, there's a hell of a lot more of us than there are of staff. We are just as creative, just as motivated, and just as interested in seeing the game retain a high standard of quality.

Presence: I've played a leader in which I had two emails answered in eight months. Before that I played a GMH Agent awhile back that couldn't even get keys to the warehouse to pick up orders, much less get orders loaded. No emails in either situation, no replies from MUD. I understand this is a volunteer effort - but you have still volunteered for a position. If you are unable to meet the demands of that position for whatever reason, ask for help. Don't ignore your players, don't let them float in la-la land until they are so bored and sick to death of not being able to actually perform their role that they store.

These are all personal experiences - but this is why I no longer play Arm. I agree with some of what Bebop has said. I disagree with other points. I do believe that there's things that could be done better. I care about this game - I believe it has a very high quality in reference to other RPI's out there. But, to be honest, the amount of frustration the above problems engendered for me has soured me on the experience.

Having said all that, I had some very good times in Arm. I played some really memorable characters - but in the end, I got no account notes, no karma, no nothing for any of them. If it weren't, honestly, for the number of players that sent me kudos through either PM or the request tool, I'd think that I was a less-than-stellar roleplayer. Playing the characters was, in their own right, my reward. Still, it's nice to be noticed.

Wow... Now that there what Helix posted... All of his points, every single one of them, are what I have a problem with with this game.

God I'm so glad he posted it 100x better than I ever could. All of his points... Those are what I want see DEBATED in a player staff meeting.

It really is overbearing how much it feels like the staff just don't give a shit about what we want for the story, and our characters. And how much they are unwilling to codedly change the game aesthetically for our benefit immersively.


Edited to add: Also what kiri said:

Quote from: Kiri on February 09, 2009, 10:42:04 PM
I left because after months of struggling with clan  IMM neglect and favoritism, I filied a formal complaint that never REALLY got resolved. Extra staff was assigned, but there was still no help, no answer to my pleas for suggestions or direction. There was ONE NPC animation, which didn't really result in anything but my PC being patted on the head and being told basically that she was being replaced by an apped PC.

There were critical issues that never got dealt with IC. Quite frankly, I felt like I was being stalled because the IMMs didn't want to take IC action against the other PCs involved.

The final straw was when, after several emails asking for help dealing with an OOC issue that had to be dealt with IC, I was ignored in favor of a demand for OOC information about my character's personal life (Information I withheld deliberately, as I did not trust the information to get "leaked" via NPCs).

It's pretty discouraging when you KNOW you could improve what you're doing in your role, and ask for help moving in that direction, and instead get ignored or persecuted. And then replaced by an "apped" PC.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 09, 2009, 11:01:23 PM
Wow... Now that there what Helix posted... All of his points, every single one of them, are what I have a problem with with this game.

God I'm so glad he posted it 100x better than I ever could. All of his points... Those are what I want see DEBATED in a player staff meeting.

It really is overbearing how much it feel like the staff just don't give a shit about what we want for the story, and our characters. And how much they are unwilling to codedly change the game aesthetically for our benefit immersively.


Edited to add: Also what kiri said:

Quote from: Kiri on February 09, 2009, 10:42:04 PM
I left because after months of struggling with clan  IMM neglect and favoritism, I filied a formal complaint that never REALLY got resolved. Extra staff was assigned, but there was still no help, no answer to my pleas for suggestions or direction. There was ONE NPC animation, which didn't really result in anything but my PC being patted on the head and being told basically that she was being replaced by an apped PC.

There were critical issues that never got dealt with IC. Quite frankly, I felt like I was being stalled because the IMMs didn't want to take IC action against the other PCs involved.

The final straw was when, after several emails asking for help dealing with an OOC issue that had to be dealt with IC, I was ignored in favor of a demand for OOC information about my character's personal life (Information I withheld deliberately, as I did not trust the information to get "leaked" via NPCs).

It's pretty discouraging when you KNOW you could improve what you're doing in your role, and ask for help moving in that direction, and instead get ignored or persecuted. And then replaced by an "apped" PC.

I think what I was getting at here (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,33353.0.html) was that there has been a deliberate decision by staff to allow code to settle matters before rp.

I can't say it worries me, but it is something to think about IMHO.

Quote from: helix on February 09, 2009, 10:50:07 PM
Attitude:

"There are a lot of different ways that we administer the game, many of which do not involve direct interaction with players.  We are not your servants; we work for the game, not for you." - a staff member

I remember this quote because I winced when I read it. In essense, the reverse is also true - we're here for the game, not for the imms. We aren't actors in your play - we're stars in our own. That's a fundemental tenant of storytelling, whether it's D&D, White Wolf, GURPS or anything else I've ever played. The characters, not the NPCs (the 'game'), are central to the story.

I highlighted something that could never be said enough.

Quote from: helix on February 09, 2009, 10:50:07 PM
I left Arm about two months ago, and have little desire to return. I'll list my own reasons, as I don't agree with some of Bebop's. Others, however, I do.

Permissive vs. Non-Permissive:
Communication:
Enabling vs. Disabling:
Attitude:
Bureacracy:
Presence:

These topics contain a lot of very good points, and I think that the frustrations and issues that you've experienced are part of what the Staff has been trying to work toward addressing with the new focus on player-driven plots vs. NPC-driven plots.  Many of the issues that you stated have been things that I've struggled with myself from time to time, such as running into plot obstacles that seemed insurmountable or having something bottleneck at a point where staff approval and/or permission was required.

I believe that steps are being made to alleviate many of these symptoms, attempting to place more control in the hands of the players.  Arm 2 is supposed to be less focused on mega-clans and more focused on the player-driven organizations that come about as a result motivated people such as yourself.  With a few more features, much of what you want could be possible:

> In-game crafting/purchase of doors, locks, and keys.
> In-game crafting/purchase of wagons, carts, and caravans.
> In-game branding/marking service on items chosen for clan/organization identification.
> In-game command of certain human resources, such as NPC shop keepers, estate guards, and cooks that could help fill gaps in a given organization's setup.
> In-game methods to adjust/rename rented rooms for specific purposes. (i.e. Being able to rent a 4-bedroom apartment and assign those 4 rooms arbitrary labels as long as you were the owner, reverting to their previous state if/when you give up possession.)

I'd also like to see us begin to move away from special apps, allowing the Imms to focus on all of the players instead of having to spend a lot of their time setting up special characters, loading up special clothes, assign special skills, and sifting through the applications themselves.  This would also address a lot of problems people have experienced with special app characters taking over leadership positions, making widespread changes to existing structures, or being perceived as getting "special treatment" over non-special app'd characters.

The more I think about it, the less I like special applications being part of the game.  I realize that they're a necessary evil in some circumstances, but I also think we could stand to cut down on the amount of them as we move closer to a more player-driven environment -- especially for Arm 2.

If some of these things are able to come to fruition, then I think you'll see a return to the type of environment that a lot of us older players enjoyed in the past; a world filled with individual agendas rather than clan-related business.  Part of this is due to the nature of Arm 1 moving slowly toward its end, and Arm 2 moving slowly toward its beginning.  Until that day arrives, there will be a certain "stress" associated with the goings-on for all parties involved.

Take a break, take a breath, recharge and come back when you feel the urge.

-LoD

The more I think about it, there are times I've felt like clan staffers have decided that "I'm gonna help player A with their goals because I like their style (NPCs seem to side with them, etc). But player B, I just don't care much for their style so I'm not going to aid in furthering their goals. In fact, I'm going to hinder them with the use of NPCs as much as possible."
This may have not been the case and it is likely that it was my own perception/feelings at the time but it is a perception/feeling that I've had a few times playing this game where staff-controlled npcs got involved in clan stuff.
It just felt like that no matter what my pc wanted to accomplish, they were looked down on and shit on by the higher-up clan npcs. At the same time, other clan pcs were treated like their very shit was chocolate-scented gold.
Like I said, I try to have more faith in our staff than to believe this perception is true, but hearing some others express such feelings as well makes me wonder if it was completely my perception.
I did run into a situation where a staff member's pc used information garnered through their position on staff to do something they shouldn't have vs. my pc but that person is no longer on staff so I suppose they were caught up to no good another time.

Quote from: staggerlee on February 09, 2009, 12:56:20 AM
I'd really like to see a coherent mission statement from the staff.  I think it'd clear up a lot of misunderstandings and help ensure that staff and players were working toward a common goal.

I think that a lot of the conflict regarding Arm revolves around misunderstandings and poor communication.

Ask, and ye shall receive:

Quote from: Armageddon Staff Missions Statement
Mission Statement:
***********************

    Preliminaries:

    Armageddon is not a company or corporation; Armageddon is a hobby. It's the equivalent of having a huge train set in our collective basement, and obsessively going down to tinker with it. We want everyone to enjoy being on staff, to feel that they're doing things purely because they want to, and in fact the primary reward anyone should expect for donating their time to a hobby is the enjoyment of the time spent.

    The one responsibility that everyone on staff has, and the thing you implicitly agree to when becoming a staff member, is to be an active member of the staff community. This means you should keep up to date on what is happening, in the form of reading the IDB and GDB on a regular basis, and provide information to others in the form of feedback on what they're doing, as well as sharing what you're up to. People who are not a part of the community are not contributing. If you don't enjoy being a part of the staff community on Armageddon, then you probably aren't going to be in charge of much.

    That said, we'd like to outline what we feel is most important to the game, because as Overlords, we think it's vital that our vision for the mud be clearly communicated. Armageddon has evolved and changed over the ten some years that it's been in existence, and it will continue to evolve, change and (hopefully) grow.

***********************

    Accountability:

    Accountability comes in three flavors: accountability to the game, to the players and to the other members of the staff. Here's how we see each:

    Accountability to the game: To keep working towards the goals of game stability, playability and consistency.

        * Building: Making items and NPCs that are consistent with the current guidelines.
        * Building: Keeping abreast of changes and events on the game.
        * Building: Taking charge of typos and ideas, fixing and verifying them and then making sure they get cleared out of the file once they've been verified/approved.
        * Coding: Not leaving code half-baked or unfinished.
        * Coding: Making sure code is balanced and consistent with the current documentation.
        * Coding: Spending time on code that will maximize people's enjoyment of the game, rather than focusing on code that is so specialized or complicated that it may never get used.
        * Coding: Taking charge of bugs and making sure that they are fixed, tested, and removed from the bugs file when resolved.
        * Staff: When posting on the Net, in the form of IDB postings, GDB, or the Armageddon webpage, or emailing players, to refrain from flamebait, statements which cast a bad light on the game, or insulting other MUDs.
        * Plots: Running plots that are consistent with current guidelines, which incorporate existing events, and which don't collide with things already existing on the game.

    Accountability to the players: Treating players fairly and consistently.

        * Building: Keeping your clans informed as to IC/OOC events, and making sure you check bugs/ideas/typos on a regular basis to fix things that affect them. If you have to take RL leave, make sure your areas are covered so the players aren't left in the lurch.
        * Coding: Testing changes thoroughly to make sure they don't crash us, and posting what's been done in case not everything was tested sufficiently so the crash bug can be fixed
        * Coding: Making sure command syntax is (fairly) intuitive and more importantly, that command syntax is consistent
        * Coding: Making sure new features are sufficiently documented in the form of helpfiles, as well as included in news, the MOTD and/or the GDB.
        * Documentation: Answering questions on the GDB, wishes, account mails, mails to clan immortals both informatively, politely, and in a timely way.
        * Plots: Running plots which are consistent with current documentation. Finishing plots completely, and not scheduling events for players and then failing to show.
        * Plots: Treating players fairly. This is not to say do away with the karma system, but hand out karma or perks to players who have earned them. Not because they're a pal in real life, or bought you beer.
        * Plots: If a player dies or is harmed as a result of your actions, emailing the account with a report on what happened, so if the player emails the account about it, their letter can be answered.
        * Staff: To be consistent in how things are done. For example: Setting out guidelines for approving/rejecting apps, and letting the players know what those guidelines are.

    Accountability to Staff: Respecting the efforts and time of the other staff members.

        * Building: Not interfering in another person's area of responsibility or doing something that will have a major impact on them without checking/letting them know ahead of time.
        * Coding: Airing major changes on the IDB ahead of time, and asking for input. Not making a major change without some consensus on the part of the upper staff.
        * Coding: Documenting changes thoroughly and letting people know what's new so they can incorporate it in their plots and building. Coding things that are useful to other staff members, and making sure there are no bugs in the code which create problems for people running plots or building.
        * Plots: Keeping each other informed of plots, events and other information they might need.
        * Staff: Treating each other fairly and consistently, trying to work out problems directly, or, in the case of Storytellers and Highlords, through someone higher up, should the problem not be directly resolvable. Not engaging in backbiting, or discussing other staff members with players.
        * Staff: Letting the rest of the team know when you will be absent, particularly when there are plotlines or projects that are dependent on you.
        * Staff: Adhering to the guidelines sent out in the Storyteller and Highlord documentation, including the staff contract.

***********************

    Priorities:

    The priority list for working in any area of the game, whether it's coding, plots or building, are:

       1. Stability: Increasingly, we're working towards less lag and longer uptimes. Being able to use the testport to test possible crash bugs will move us even further in this direction.
       2. Balance: Making sure code and building do not unbalance the game. Documentation and building like Halaster's template weapons or Krrx's template NPCs assists in this as well.
       3. Consistency: Adhering to the existing documentation. while continuing to expand it. Making code and syntax consistent overall.
       4. Accountability: As listed in exhaustive detail above.
       5. G-Factor: Things that make players go 'Gee-whiz, that's cool!' Anything from a small building detail to a slick piece of code or an inventive, atmospheric plot.

    Not on the list, but valid as long as they adhere to the above.

       1. I read this in a book...
       2. A few years ago...
       3. When I was mortal, we always played it that...

***********************

    Focusing on using/extending what we have:

    Code: The code shouldn't be so specialized. Any spell should be usable as a spice, as a poison, as a psi power, as a skill. And the other way around. We add new skills, and people want more spells, we add more spells, and people want more psi powers. And all of them have bugs and issues of game balance. Focus on using and extending the functionality of what's there.

        * Example: People make requests to see DMPL/Javascript extended here or there, or see fixes in DMPL/Javascript. This is a prime example since they're not asking for a whole new language, just a more stable and usable feature in DMPL/Javascript.
        * Example: Checking the bugs file to look for flaws in your own code, and making sure they get fixed, so the code is fully functional.
        * Example: Expanding the light code and adding color values while fixing it so the room echoes when someone moves in with a light.
        * Example: The gith_gear dmpl, which works with existing merchant code, rather than against it.
        * Example: Having the crafting code often work with forageable objects.
        * Example: All the additions Morgenes has made to the emote code, such as being able to use emotes with objects.

    Plots: Plots need to be followed through on. Starting a new plot is not a solution to leaving another unfinished. Plots, like code, should interact more. Plotts should also try to use what's there, to expand and amplify the existing world and documentation.

        * Example: Daigon doing Byn travel plots, and Keraptis coordinating with BlackMoon raiding plots.
        * Example: Plotts which use past events as a basis, such as Radoon's going to Mal Krian to find *** CENSORED *** there. Plots that ask players to find an item or NPC that is already in the game, rather than specifically built for the occasion.
        * Example: Bhagharva and Talley adding to the arena area, as well as the existing code there, to create the Gladiator RPTs.
        * Example: The plot where the elves & humans fight for territory in the 'rinth. This doesn't involve demons, ancient assassin cults, or anything, and the players are free to explore it and find out what is going on, they can take part, or flee it.
        * Example: Kadius sending people on weekly 'plots' to find items for the stock and warehouses. This makes them interact with the existing world and existing code to get what they need. They feel that there's a benefit to exploring and learning the various markets.

    Building: There's not as large a need for 500 new items, as there is for having the existing database used more.

        * Example: Rotating shop merchandise to get old items out into the game.
        * Example: Going through the existing database to fix old items or make sure they're flagged correctly.
        * Example: Revamping existing areas, such as Krrx did with the Red Desert and the Salt Flats.
        * Example: Making the crafting code work with as many existing objects as possible, rather than building entire new sets.
        * Example: Camps and villages. The wagon code wasn't intended to be used this way, but it is an excellent extension of existing code.
        * Example: Tents. Again, an imaginative, interesting extension of the wagon code which fulfills a player need.
        * Example: Lizards/Birds that are 'alive' that people use as pets. Rather than coding it to allow NPCs to exist within characters.

***********************

Summary: We've always been about quality over quantity; this is only backing up that ideal.

That has been the staff mission statement since long before I came on board in 2005.

Since you've chosen to give your feedback in a public forum, I think it's only fitting to respond in kind.

Some of the things I am about to say are not nice.  Normally, I wouldn't get into a GDB argument with a player because a) it's a waste of time I could be devoting to enriching the world for other players b) I don't believe in rewarding bad behavior with attention and c) it's unprofessional.

But I think that a lot of these issues have been swirling around in OOC channels for some time now, since other recent threads have involved other people repeating your complaints on your behalf.  And I don't think it's fair of you to use them this way, even with their consent and of their own volition, when they do not know the whole story.  And since you're leaving anyway, I don't think it matters if I reveal the few bits that you haven't already shared with your friends.

Also, attacking someone who can't fight back is, simply, rude.  A lot of you get away with it, and there's been a lot of it lately.  Maybe you don't realize that's what you're doing.  I'm about to completely break the rules when I go on to tell you all what Bebop isn't telling you.  We normally just have to sit here and take it even when players are telling egregious lies (Bebop's aren't egregious).  I can't count how many staff members have chosen to take leave or leave the game entirely because they get so discouraged by the constant barrage of player attacks or players who assume we're attacking them.  We're not allowed to attack you.  We are allowed (and expected) to make you follow the rules of the game and the boards, and to react appropriately if you're not doing so.  We are also expected to bring the world to life, and unfortunately this means some of your roleplay ideas and desires get shot down.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AM
As a player of four years that has stopped being involved in the game, I would like to offer this following critique of the game.  It's your choice to read it, but as a player that is quitting that has played for four years and has a few points of karma or so I would like offer my opinion as I currently do not care if I return to the game or not this is non-bias and extremely candid.  We've been talking a lot lately about player retention and since it appears I am bowing out I would like to offer my perspective.

Just so that all the facts are out there....  You've been talking about leaving for some time now.  But you just weeks ago applied to play a Nakki templar, so I assume you would have been playing if you'd gotten the role.  That seems like sour grapes to me. 

I have heard other players say, "the only thing I really still want to play is a _____" and templar is one of the commonest fill-in-the-blanks.  Frankly, I don't want to give a templar role to someone who thinks they're too good to play any of the other wonderful roles the game has to offer.  I want someone who is passionate about the game on the game's terms, not only if it's on their terms.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AM
But after playing for four years, I'm very disappointed to find myself well, disappointed and a little bit jaded.  My perspective of Armageddon is tarnished and it's kind of like watching George Lucas twist Star Wars or having all of the copies in the world of your favorite book destroyed.

I think this is a pretty common reaction around the 4 year mark.  It comes earlier for some and later for others, but at some point the honeymoon ends.  Some romantic relationships can't survive when all the excitement and novelty are gone.  Other relationships find a way to make the old new again, or strike a deeper chord of connection.  And just like a relationship, some people will find a way to stick it out with Armageddon, and others won't.  It's not the game's fault, it's not the player's fault.  Either you last or you don't, that's all.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AM
A Lack of Common Goals

This part is brief.  In the time I've been playing while the staff correspondences here are significantly better than some other online gaming communities I find there is still a significant lack of professionalism.  E-mails are not returned on time.  Roles are offered and players are not responded to for weeks or months. 

Oh good lord.  Some of the other applicants for the templar role were also applying for staff, which is why the whole group of templar apps got held up--because we were holding those roles out for non-staff members.

The reason your app in particular got held up even longer is because we were considering actually giving you the role, it was between you and one other person.  Now, I'm sorry our response time is not up to your standards, but after this response, I'm glad we made the decision we did.

Starting in March of '08 we instituted a policy where if an email goes unanswered for more than 7 days, the person doing mudmail will send an email reminder to the clan staff, to make sure they follow up.  This has greatly reduced the amount of email that gets ignored or forgotten.  Is it 100% foolproof?  Of course not.  Like any system that relies on humans, it is prone to human error.  That's why we've always said that you can and should send us a reminder if something hasn't been answered in a week or two.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AM
IMMs can be short, sarcastic and even cruel in communication on the GDB and e-mail

That's right, you don't have a monopoly.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AM- definitely they are bias. 

Are we biased?  Yeah, actually, I'd say that we are in many cases.  Karma, for example, is a system of bias.  We're prejudging you on your ability to play a role, when you've never played that role.

But it's not a blind bias.  We're biased on the basis of observing players in game, in email, and on the board.  We made judgments on them, judgments which are almost always made on a group level, to some extent.  If one staff member has a negative impression of a player, other staffers may disagree.  I think that having so many opinions in the mix eliminates a lot of unjustified bias.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AMI have been playing for four years, in all those years I've heard discussion about upgrading the website (the game's first impression) to something more comprehensive and eye catching.  This has never been done. 

The discussion has been among players, not staff.  I'm sorry we didn't immediately implement your idea as soon as you posted it.  But there actually a lot more involved in improving the website than just throwing up a JPEG and changing the font.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AMGreatly appreciated tweaks have been made but it seems like effort isn't going where effort is due.  Case in point the new chat room system, but I'll get to that.  Overall there seems to be a general lack of organization.  Where the documentation was once very concise it seems that the documentation is currently always being changed or added to.

I can't actually think of an online multiplayer game that is the same as it was 4 years ago.  If you can find such a game, then you will have found your niche.  Happy hunting.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AM
New Immortals - New Vision

Though many of the immortals have come in and done an amazing job I have a very huge concern about seniority.  There is a real lack of seniority right now.  Many IMMs that were around when I first started playing seem to have fallen away.  New IMMs are being introduced more and more,

Part of this is just something that everyone notices more the longer they stay around.  There is a pretty regular turnover, but I would say the current rate is about the same as it has ever been.  I don't think there's a lack of seniority.  Just because someone is now a HL who wasn't even on staff when you started playing, doesn't mean they haven't been on staff long enough.  It just means you've been playing longer, now.

We did lose a chunk of staff around the time that 2.0 was announced.  But I think overall we're back to a normal level.  At that time, I'd say we were maybe a little overstaffed, compared to what we had been before.  But I'd say our current staffing levels are at about the same player:staff ratio as they were in, say, 2003.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AM
sometimes when I am in a clan I get a response from an IMM that I had never heard of, is not listed as an IMM for my clan and an IMM I never heard announced. 

I'm pretty sure this is hyperbole.

(Part 2)

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AMIt's just like player retention - IMM retention is just as important.  If we can't keep senior immortals (and not just coders) what kind of standard is set for the new IMMs, and are they changing the standard.  It's like when you love a movie and then a new director makes the sequal and it's just not the same.  How is that effecting the game?

This game has a foundation.  The past has been successful.  The previous IMMs helped make this game what it is.  Suddenly it seems the entire game is being flushed out for a new one.  A new one that had no guarantee to be as successful with new IMMs that did not initially help this game become what it was. 

The game is being changed because a disgruntled, banned former player reported us to Hasbro for using DarkSun IP, and they want us to stop using it. 

So we had a choice between stripping every piece of that IP out of the current game (pretty hard, and imposssible to justify ICly) or starting afresh.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AM
I feel there is a general lack of focus and game is degrading because of that.  Let's go back to the movie analogy.  The Matrix was huge, it was one of the biggest sci-fi kicks in a long while, the mythology started out being pretty darned intriguing.  Then the focus went to graphics and innovative cinematography instead of story and handful of years later the sequels are sitting on the four dollar rack at the grocery store.

Without IMMs to maintain a standard - the standard that brought this game ten years of success, I fear that a few things are happening.  One is a slow disregard for the documentation.  Clans are shifting and changing constantly and not necessarily to so much fit the game world that we've all come to love but to fit the newer "generation" of IMM desires.

Every major change to the game has to be approved by the OLs, two of whom have been staffing this game for over 10 years each.  Maybe, instead of a bunch of us trying to mutiny and steal the ship, they're just using their long range of experience and knowledge to improve the game?

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AM
New Changes to Clans and Storytelling

I have to say I'm greatly surprised about this change.  While I think that lumping the cities and their areas of society and otherwise was a good idea, I'm lost on all of the rest. 

I'll agree that the 'independent' group is a complete mishmash.  I mean, Bards, Guild, and Byn in one area?  Craziness.  I can admit that, and I'm the one who thunk it up.   I think the other 4 areas, though, are actually really exciting not only in terms of what staff will be able to do with them, but just how we look at the clans in general.

For example, anyone who went on the great GMH silt skimmer expedition knows what a multi-GMH plot can look like: awesome.  And combining all the tribal groups together is important in a couple of ways.  The non-gypsy human tribals have sort of been the redheaded stepchild of tribalism.  Mekeda made some great camps for them which are underused, for example.  Then on the other hand you have the Tan Muark, who have been long perceived to be given special attention that other clans don't get.  Well, now the Tan Muark are just another human tribe, and the attention is being spread more evenly.

I do admit that I'm biased about this plan, because I proposed it.  I'm willing to admit that it might not work.  But I think it's premature to say whether it will or not, at this early stage.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AM
This was marketed to be something that will give players more capability.  This won't happen for several reasons.  The only real change I saw was that PC leaders are no longer going to be animated.

1) Now IMMs will have less time as they will be answering e-mails and animating NPCs - E-mails are already not responded to and lead to character storing in clans.

There will be just as many emails, and just as many staffers answering them as there ever were.  The difference is that the animations we do will (should) be animations that everyone from the boss down to the lowest grunt might have a chance to interact with, instead of what it used to be--one imm sitting in a closed room with one player, animating the boss NPC to receive a report that the imm already read in email.

Let's do the math: would you rather that one animation benefits 3 PCs, or only 1 PC?

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AM
2) Now IMMS will be able to manipulate the storyline using e-mail, final say and animating NPCs that have the ability to change your character's storyline while at the same time being privy to all OOC information being sent their way.

I'm not sure I understand your point.  Imms always had the final say when it comes to what the superiors of a clan think about an idea.  That's our job, to make sure that the virtual world react appropriately, good or bad.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AM
This comes after not long ago there was a rule to decide that clans were going to be shifted.  They were hardly ever shifted and player fears came to life.  Sometimes clan that was once working like a well oiled machine changed direction under the new IMMs.  NPCs that had once faired one way, faired the other.  New IMMs had to be put up to speed after the shift. 

Are you sure you've been playing for 4 years?  We generally rotate staff amongst clans at least once a year.  For example, in my 6 years on staff I've worked on every clan except for the 'rinthi clans and Byn.  Some clans twice.

We rotate clans for several reasons.  One, it brings new perspective and ideas to clans.  One of the first things that happened after our first official clan rotation is that Tlaloc realized that the wage scale for clans was incredibly out of whack, like lower-tier noble house employees were making more than Borsail employees, etc.  Two, it helps to prevent or eliminate problems caused by imms making pets out of their favorite clan, and that clan getting more attention/goodies than any other clan.  Three, it makes every staff member stronger when they can look at a situation and see it from multiple angles.  So when a Kadian gets on the bad side of a Blue Robe, and the staffer has staffed both AoD and Kadius, they understand the situation from every angle.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AM
It seems there has been lots of change to fill the front page but a real lack of substantiality and stability that the players can rely on.  The code maybe better and sometimes the service in some circumstance has become more dependable, but has the story really gotten any better?  Has the game really become more intriguing because of it?  I say no. 

Well, then you are probably much better off having made your decision to leave.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AMAnd I think no is in the numbers as I watch jaded players that played for years fall off the game one by one.

Like staff turnover, this is actually a pretty constant rate.  As I said before, some people stick past the honeymoon, others don't.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AMNot to mention I was enormously surprised to find the new chat system where people can create their own chats and mod them.  Not that this isn't already happening on various social websites and messenger systems but for IMMs to actually encourage this OOC spread of information and ability to create more clichés is really incredible to me.

Morgenes has already amply addressed this.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AMEspecially when there are so many other ways that funds (monetary or time wise) could be utilized.

It's not your money or your time, so you don't get to choose how it's spent.

I know everyone is going to hate this analogy, and it's honestly not meant to be condescending, but: as long as you live in your parents' house, you have to live by their rules.  You may not get to pick what's in the fridge or what cable package they have either.  It's their house and their money.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AMArmageddon is an OOC Game - Politics and Elitism.

This is my final point and my largest.  Armageddon is an OOC game.  One may not notice it at first in the early stages of "newbdom."  But one quickly begins to understand that one must participate in an OOC game along with the IC one.

No.  This is so wrong I don't even begin to know how to address it.  Maybe if you weren't so involved in OOC, then other players wouldn't have been able to identify your characters and use them in their arguments against you in this thread. 

I can assure you that many of our finest players are not involved in OOC, and in fact that's part of what makes them our finest players.  Conversely, some players who are very popular OOCly are not admired at all by staff.

Are there cliques?  I'd say there are some.  I think there aren't as many as you think there are.  You do tend to be a little paranoid.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AMIs it worth it?  It might be - until you lose the OOC side and it begins to effect the IC.

The entire karma system is currently set up in a way that players are punished if their OOC communication is not up to par.  Even so much that it stifles progress in the game because players can not offer up due criticism for fear of being nerfed on special application or leadership roles. 

So you're saying that you think you didn't get the templar role because I wouldn't let you buy NPC slaves with your previous, 5-day unaffiliated commoner, and because you let me know what you thought of my decision?

Like I said, you almost got that templar role.  The reason you didn't is because you store all your nobles and templars the first time something doesn't go your way, and because you're so argumentative in emails that no one wants to sponsor you in the role.  It's easier to give the role to someone who is an equally good roleplayer but less of a pain in the ass.

If by being a "good OOC communicator" you mean that you have to be polite and not constantly accuse the other person of having it in for you, then yes, by all means, that is what you need to get ahead in this game and in life.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AM
This is a very real problem.  It's an obvious problem.  And it's something that is disgusted on the various OOC channels of communication every single day.

May I respectfully suggest that if you spent less time comparing complaints over OOC channels you might not get so worked up over them that you appear (from our side) to be overreacting?

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AMIt has been made very clear that the Armageddon community is not one of a democracy but one that it is totalitarian in nature making players even more dependant. 

That's correct, it's not a representative democracy, where everyone's votes count.  We do listen to feedback, though, and allow dissent, so it's not totalitarian.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AM
It reminds me of George Lucas making millions off of his fans and then saying that he doesn't take into consideration their criticism to his films.  The IMMs are holding all of the cards and criticism of their leadership is not only condemned and discouraged but punished whenever someone may apply for a role.

Dissent is allowed as long as it doesn't devolve to flames, and in the case of thoughtful, polite, constructive criticism, it is positively welcomed.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AMBad account notes are actually put onto your account for GDB and OOC interactions regardless of your role play capabilities or success in former leadership roles. 

Well, yeah.  I definitely want to know if someone is going to be easy or difficult to deal with when I am contemplating beginning a correspondence of several emails a week for several months with them.

I'll put it this way.  Of the negative notes on your account, fully 1/4 are about your GDB antics.  However, since there have not been any more notes on this behavior in over 18 months (since your temp ban) I wouldn't take them into account.  However, another 1/4 of the notes are from staffers who have found you difficult to work with in clans.  And they're all different staffers.   Even if I'd never dealt with you before that would give me pause.  If that many people agree that there is a problem, then I don't care if you could roleplay a paraplegic black robe to perfection.  It's not worth the hassle when there are many fine roleplayers to choose from.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AMRegardless of how you may benefit the story of Armageddon the line of OOC discussion is a hard one to balance.  Not only in receiving a role but advancing your mundane character as well, even within the bounds of realism.

Is it realistic for an unaffiliated commoner with no particular political, economic, or social clout to have an NPC guard slave?  I will let you pose that question to your fellow players, since they are the ones thereby deprived of a fair chance at assassinating your character.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AM
I think what IMMS and even players may fail to understand is that criticism is crucile not only to a relationship but to a changing community and a community that wants to continue to improve. 

Sure, if the criticism is based on facts, not just half-truths carefully edited to make you look better and us look worse.  But you have to accept that just because even 1/2 of players want a particular change does not mean it will happen or should happen.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AMI don't think players or IMMs should so much concern themselves with if the person criticizing is good at doing so constructively so much as if their criticism has validity instead of ultimately punishing that person if you don't agree or if they come off in a way you don't like.

I think you will find that life does not reward a negative attitude nor uncivil behavior any more than the staff of this game does.

Quote from: Bebop on February 09, 2009, 12:50:25 AMThe meat of this part of my critique is that the OOC game is one that everyone loses and one that we all play and it's getting worse for several reasons.  It's the elephant in the room so to speak.  I've had great OOC interactions, including the APM.  And I think people can definitely handle OOC information many times (though not all of the times) without letting it hinder their RP abilities.  But my issue comes whenever OOC politics become a game you must play in order to gain an advantage.

Conclusion

This is my conclusion as someone who wants the best for this game.  I recently had two very bad experiences with this game where role play and documentation were completely ignored.  Before that I had stepped away from the game for about two months.  I had those experiences stepped back a month, came back and played and then stepped back again.  I submitted one application where I felt I had done well before and could significantly attempt to make the game engaging only to never receive an e-mail regarding it.  Four years ago as a newb I played a character for three real life months that had no problem with magickers and ended up bedding one.  Through the course of three months the story was amazing.  I was enslaved, I was attacked, I worked various jobs regardless of guild.  In fact I think I only fought once.  When I got knocked up by a magicker I was attacked, cursed, warned and made an outcast.  Four real life years later, I walked into a tavern as a northerner and got pats on the back and smiles from a southron crowd in one of the grungiest southside tavern.  My first reaction was, seriously?  In the past months I've seen thing, after thing, after thing, after thing that clearly completely defies and entirely ignores the documentation.  The grittiness feels gone.  Let's face it, when you're into a character - and I mean IN to a character, that character becomes a part of you.  You bring that character to life.  That's an opportunity reserved for writers, artists and actors.  Armageddon gives us the opportunity to escape from monotony, learn and make some friends along the way.  I'm becoming more and more disheartened to see that process become discarded due to lack of respect for the foundation of the game.

I would really like to come back to the game.  I would really truly like to.  (After this criticism I may not be wanted back).  But my enthusiasm for it is really waning to the point I don't know if I ever will.  If I don't come back I felt those things at least needed to be said if I bow out permanently.

Thanks for your feedback.  I hope you'll consider my feedback as well.

Vanth, you scare me a little bit.

Quote from: Synthesis on February 10, 2009, 04:19:25 AM
Vanth, you scare me a little bit.

It was just waiting to happen. Especially with some of the other comments from people who stopped playing but still visit the GDB :-X

Quote from: Synthesis on February 10, 2009, 04:19:25 AM
Vanth, you scare me a little bit.

I loled.


Seriously Vanth, that offers a lot of insight into how the staff work, think, and feel. Though you were only reinforcing what I thought anyways, it's nice to actually hear it put so bluntly. If I had seriously thought that I had to join certain OOC cliques to progress in the game I would have done a lot more ass kissing. I feel that (especially since being told how the special app process actually works) the staff handle things exactly as they should. By taking into consideration what the person does, how they act, and how they play, in judging what they might bring to the game. And if people seriously think their OOC personalities don't determine how they play, or how it is to deal with them via staff interaction, they should probably reevaluate how life works.

This post, however, doesn't help to alleviate what my concerns are with the game. Nor do I think there will ever be a way to truly do this. Obviously what my wants for the game are, don't exactly coincide with the general consensus of the staff(mostly due to their restrictions, not their willingness), and I'm fine with that. I still get to focus on my character, my story, and my enjoyment, and nothing staff or other players supposed OOC cliquishness can do(save for making my characters heart-attack) will change that. The game resides, for me, in imagination and storytelling, both of which I get to control a part of.

At any rate, thank you for responding to Bebop, I'm sure you've alleviated a lot of peoples concerns.


Edited to take out something that didn't make sense.

Thank you, Vanth.

Your post = mine, but without all the vitriol and fucking. Polite and succint.

On that note, I take my leave.

Without commenting on the content itself of Vanth's post, I honestly think it would've been better if his/her reply was given to Bebop via email then public post like that.

Venting happens. Players tend to do it and then a month or two later go right back into the game

Staff response carry significantly more weight, whether it is the 'official' response, or just personal opinion. I'll admit Vanth tried to make her post not as heavy handed as it could've been. But as far as the whole 'player retention' gist is concerned, I think this did more harm then good.

I...can't...resist..

Dar: After successive years of harassment and name calling, it's been a long time coming for a staff member to step in and defend their role as it pertains to ArmageddonMUD.

This. Was. Needed.

Trust me.

Well, it may depend on the player. I've experience being an IMM so I know what players can be like when they try to air out staff on forums and don't tell the whole story on what really happens and staff not being allowed to defend themselves. As a player here, I'm glad for the insight and in a way this would actually make me feel more connected to what is going on here and knowing that staff aren't exactly like Bebop's post made them out to be will keep me here. But that is just my opinion and I cannot speak for everyone else who plays here.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 10, 2009, 06:54:40 AM
Seriously Vanth, that offers a lot of insight into how the staff work, think, and feel.
Though you were only reinforcing what I thought anyways, it's nice to actually hear it put so bluntly.

Thank you for this.

Quote from: Lakota on February 10, 2009, 08:06:43 AM
This. Was. Needed.

Quote from: Dar on February 10, 2009, 07:41:53 AM
Without commenting on the content itself of Vanth's post, I honestly think it would've been better if his/her reply was given to Bebop via email then public post like that.

Venting happens. Players tend to do it and then a month or two later go right back into the game

Staff response carry significantly more weight, whether it is the 'official' response, or just personal opinion. I'll admit Vanth tried to make her post not as heavy handed as it could've been. But as far as the whole 'player retention' gist is concerned, I think this did more harm then good.

If Bebop's reply was emailed, then I think an email response is appropriate. When you post on the GDB, it's for discussion, and you'll get responses, whether or not you agree.

Although I'd be concerned when staff starting using player account notes and the like to blow us away on every discussion, now and then, it's a fresh breath of air to hear staff imput, and maybe clear away some perceptions that we as player's aren't always privy to know, and thus make biased judgements on.

For those who have left Arm, come back when you can. The announcements to changes in the game should give hope that things can improve over time. And maybe you can kick up that honeymoon stage again. =D

Quote from: Vanth on February 10, 2009, 04:03:14 AM
I know everyone is going to hate this analogy, and it's honestly not meant to be condescending, but: as long as you live in your parents' house, you have to live by their rules.  You may not get to pick what's in the fridge or what cable package they have either.  It's their house and their money.

This is almost enough to stop me playing before I get too attached. Even as an vague analogy, I find it incredibly off-putting. I'm not your child; I'm your guest. You invited me here. I need to act appropriately, given it's your house. And you need to act appropriately, given I'm your guest.

If that analogy reflects the attitude of the staff at large regarding the power dynamic between staff and players, I would appreciate being told sooner, rather than later.

Quote from: Lou on February 10, 2009, 09:18:43 AM

Quote from: Vanth on February 10, 2009, 04:03:14 AM
I know everyone is going to hate this analogy, and it's honestly not meant to be condescending, but: as long as you live in your parents' house, you have to live by their rules.  You may not get to pick what's in the fridge or what cable package they have either.  It's their house and their money.

This is almost enough to stop me playing before I get too attached. Even as an vague analogy, I find it incredibly off-putting. I'm not your child; I'm your guest. You invited me here. I need to act appropriately, given it's your house. And you need to act appropriately, given I'm your guest.

If that analogy reflects the attitude of the staff at large regarding the power dynamic between staff and players, I would appreciate being told sooner, rather than later.

There is a certain level of dominance that comes from staff. That's how it's supposed to be by definition. But take a look around and you will find that this relationship is not so strict. We are allowed to give our opinions on matters without being overly inflammatory. Going along with the analogy, we players have no curfew, an allowance, and sometimes the staff lets us drink their beer.

Vanth is right, in my opinion. They established rules and by coming here as players we agree to abide by them. We are also given plenty of rights, though, and it's important you don't forget that.

I think big brothers/sisters would be a better analogy.

They were once just as young as us, but they have been around for while.
They take care of us when we needed, even give us a good beating when we deserve it.
We may hate them at times, but they usually have out best interest in heart when it is important.

Hell, we may even be a big brother or sister one day.

I'd still the think that the parents analogy is more accurate. Yes, they were once kids and all. And they will never be the same innocent kids again.

Point is, they do it for the sake of everyone. Not for you alone. And if you're the one who's been tantruming around the house yelling at how unfair they've been to you, you should just take a step back and remember that they have other people to take care of. You are just one of hundreds of other players and the staff would be spending an unrealistic amount of time trying to cater to the whims of one or two powergamers.

If the staff kept quiet about it and let everyone vent without a public response, then everyone will wonder if the big, bad parents are selfish, sadistic pricks who are really there to fatten them up and eat them. Vanth might be yelled at by the other staff for the post, but IMHO, it was an inevitable solution.

Quote from: LoD on February 09, 2009, 11:38:14 PM
Stuff

LoD - I wanted to respond to you last night, but I was too tired.

I do think steps are being taken. I do believe that the staff are aware of the problem and are working to sort it out. I do believe that the recent change to staffing, in reference to how clans are handled, will alleviate many of my concerns. Even more - I do believe that Arm2 will drastically change things.

My purpose for posting was not to complain, but only to add my voice to the concensus - these were my issues. I think that this topic can be talked about in a lot more civil and thought-provoking tone than some other people have done, and maybe that's a discussion that we need to have as a group. I wish I had been able to make the P/S meeting to bring this up there, but unfortunately, I could not. There's been a lot of talk about player retention lately, apparently - these are only my reasons for not being retained, nothing more.

Quote from: SMuz on February 10, 2009, 09:44:21 AM
Point is, they do it for the sake of everyone. Not for you alone. And if you're the one who's been tantruming around the house yelling at how unfair they've been to you, you should just take a step back and remember that they have other people to take care of. You are just one of hundreds of other players and the staff would be spending an unrealistic amount of time trying to cater to the whims of one or two powergamers.

Good point, I withdraw my previous statement.

I normally try to stay out of threads where heated and strong opinions are expressed (confrontation is learned behavior for me, and it takes a conscious effort to put myself into what might even seem like the line of fire), but I would like to voice my own thanks and appreciation for Vanth's post.  It's a breath of fresh air to see someone on staff defending their position and decisions, as well as taking the time to explain their thought processes and actions.

Diplomacy and tact are wonderful things, they allow many of different biases, opinions and backgrounds to work together with a minimum of bickering, but as I've had to learn myself, confrontation isn't necessarily a bad thing and is actually needed when things just become too much, wherever that point may be.

If anything, this thread and it's responses help highlight just how stressed things are becoming, both for players and for Staff.  Bad?  Maybe.  Good?  Maybe.  I'm of the opinion that, good or bad, stress is like excitement and fear:  same physical phenomenon, and the difference is how one takes and views it.

Quote from: Olgaris on February 10, 2009, 01:58:11 AM

Quote from: staggerlee on February 09, 2009, 12:56:20 AM
I'd really like to see a coherent mission statement from the staff.  I think it'd clear up a lot of misunderstandings and help ensure that staff and players were working toward a common goal.

I think that a lot of the conflict regarding Arm revolves around misunderstandings and poor communication.

Ask, and ye shall receive:

Quote from: Armageddon Staff Missions Statement
Mission Statement:
***********************

    Preliminaries:

    Armageddon is not a company or corporation; Armageddon is a hobby. It's the equivalent of having a huge train set in our collective basement, and obsessively going down to tinker with it. We want everyone to enjoy being on staff, to feel that they're doing things purely because they want to, and in fact the primary reward anyone should expect for donating their time to a hobby is the enjoyment of the time spent.

    The one responsibility that everyone on staff has, and the thing you implicitly agree to when becoming a staff member, is to be an active member of the staff community. This means you should keep up to date on what is happening, in the form of reading the IDB and GDB on a regular basis, and provide information to others in the form of feedback on what they're doing, as well as sharing what you're up to. People who are not a part of the community are not contributing. If you don't enjoy being a part of the staff community on Armageddon, then you probably aren't going to be in charge of much.

    That said, we'd like to outline what we feel is most important to the game, because as Overlords, we think it's vital that our vision for the mud be clearly communicated. Armageddon has evolved and changed over the ten some years that it's been in existence, and it will continue to evolve, change and (hopefully) grow.

***********************

    Accountability:

    Accountability comes in three flavors: accountability to the game, to the players and to the other members of the staff. Here's how we see each:

    Accountability to the game: To keep working towards the goals of game stability, playability and consistency.

        * Building: Making items and NPCs that are consistent with the current guidelines.
        * Building: Keeping abreast of changes and events on the game.
        * Building: Taking charge of typos and ideas, fixing and verifying them and then making sure they get cleared out of the file once they've been verified/approved.
        * Coding: Not leaving code half-baked or unfinished.
        * Coding: Making sure code is balanced and consistent with the current documentation.
        * Coding: Spending time on code that will maximize people's enjoyment of the game, rather than focusing on code that is so specialized or complicated that it may never get used.
        * Coding: Taking charge of bugs and making sure that they are fixed, tested, and removed from the bugs file when resolved.
        * Staff: When posting on the Net, in the form of IDB postings, GDB, or the Armageddon webpage, or emailing players, to refrain from flamebait, statements which cast a bad light on the game, or insulting other MUDs.
        * Plots: Running plots that are consistent with current guidelines, which incorporate existing events, and which don't collide with things already existing on the game.

    Accountability to the players: Treating players fairly and consistently.

        * Building: Keeping your clans informed as to IC/OOC events, and making sure you check bugs/ideas/typos on a regular basis to fix things that affect them. If you have to take RL leave, make sure your areas are covered so the players aren't left in the lurch.
        * Coding: Testing changes thoroughly to make sure they don't crash us, and posting what's been done in case not everything was tested sufficiently so the crash bug can be fixed
        * Coding: Making sure command syntax is (fairly) intuitive and more importantly, that command syntax is consistent
        * Coding: Making sure new features are sufficiently documented in the form of helpfiles, as well as included in news, the MOTD and/or the GDB.
        * Documentation: Answering questions on the GDB, wishes, account mails, mails to clan immortals both informatively, politely, and in a timely way.
        * Plots: Running plots which are consistent with current documentation. Finishing plots completely, and not scheduling events for players and then failing to show.
        * Plots: Treating players fairly. This is not to say do away with the karma system, but hand out karma or perks to players who have earned them. Not because they're a pal in real life, or bought you beer.
        * Plots: If a player dies or is harmed as a result of your actions, emailing the account with a report on what happened, so if the player emails the account about it, their letter can be answered.
        * Staff: To be consistent in how things are done. For example: Setting out guidelines for approving/rejecting apps, and letting the players know what those guidelines are.

    Accountability to Staff: Respecting the efforts and time of the other staff members.

        * Building: Not interfering in another person's area of responsibility or doing something that will have a major impact on them without checking/letting them know ahead of time.
        * Coding: Airing major changes on the IDB ahead of time, and asking for input. Not making a major change without some consensus on the part of the upper staff.
        * Coding: Documenting changes thoroughly and letting people know what's new so they can incorporate it in their plots and building. Coding things that are useful to other staff members, and making sure there are no bugs in the code which create problems for people running plots or building.
        * Plots: Keeping each other informed of plots, events and other information they might need.
        * Staff: Treating each other fairly and consistently, trying to work out problems directly, or, in the case of Storytellers and Highlords, through someone higher up, should the problem not be directly resolvable. Not engaging in backbiting, or discussing other staff members with players.
        * Staff: Letting the rest of the team know when you will be absent, particularly when there are plotlines or projects that are dependent on you.
        * Staff: Adhering to the guidelines sent out in the Storyteller and Highlord documentation, including the staff contract.

***********************

    Priorities:

    The priority list for working in any area of the game, whether it's coding, plots or building, are:

       1. Stability: Increasingly, we're working towards less lag and longer uptimes. Being able to use the testport to test possible crash bugs will move us even further in this direction.
       2. Balance: Making sure code and building do not unbalance the game. Documentation and building like Halaster's template weapons or Krrx's template NPCs assists in this as well.
       3. Consistency: Adhering to the existing documentation. while continuing to expand it. Making code and syntax consistent overall.
       4. Accountability: As listed in exhaustive detail above.
       5. G-Factor: Things that make players go 'Gee-whiz, that's cool!' Anything from a small building detail to a slick piece of code or an inventive, atmospheric plot.

    Not on the list, but valid as long as they adhere to the above.

       1. I read this in a book...
       2. A few years ago...
       3. When I was mortal, we always played it that...

***********************

    Focusing on using/extending what we have:

    Code: The code shouldn't be so specialized. Any spell should be usable as a spice, as a poison, as a psi power, as a skill. And the other way around. We add new skills, and people want more spells, we add more spells, and people want more psi powers. And all of them have bugs and issues of game balance. Focus on using and extending the functionality of what's there.

        * Example: People make requests to see DMPL/Javascript extended here or there, or see fixes in DMPL/Javascript. This is a prime example since they're not asking for a whole new language, just a more stable and usable feature in DMPL/Javascript.
        * Example: Checking the bugs file to look for flaws in your own code, and making sure they get fixed, so the code is fully functional.
        * Example: Expanding the light code and adding color values while fixing it so the room echoes when someone moves in with a light.
        * Example: The gith_gear dmpl, which works with existing merchant code, rather than against it.
        * Example: Having the crafting code often work with forageable objects.
        * Example: All the additions Morgenes has made to the emote code, such as being able to use emotes with objects.

    Plots: Plots need to be followed through on. Starting a new plot is not a solution to leaving another unfinished. Plots, like code, should interact more. Plotts should also try to use what's there, to expand and amplify the existing world and documentation.

        * Example: Daigon doing Byn travel plots, and Keraptis coordinating with BlackMoon raiding plots.
        * Example: Plotts which use past events as a basis, such as Radoon's going to Mal Krian to find *** CENSORED *** there. Plots that ask players to find an item or NPC that is already in the game, rather than specifically built for the occasion.
        * Example: Bhagharva and Talley adding to the arena area, as well as the existing code there, to create the Gladiator RPTs.
        * Example: The plot where the elves & humans fight for territory in the 'rinth. This doesn't involve demons, ancient assassin cults, or anything, and the players are free to explore it and find out what is going on, they can take part, or flee it.
        * Example: Kadius sending people on weekly 'plots' to find items for the stock and warehouses. This makes them interact with the existing world and existing code to get what they need. They feel that there's a benefit to exploring and learning the various markets.

    Building: There's not as large a need for 500 new items, as there is for having the existing database used more.

        * Example: Rotating shop merchandise to get old items out into the game.
        * Example: Going through the existing database to fix old items or make sure they're flagged correctly.
        * Example: Revamping existing areas, such as Krrx did with the Red Desert and the Salt Flats.
        * Example: Making the crafting code work with as many existing objects as possible, rather than building entire new sets.
        * Example: Camps and villages. The wagon code wasn't intended to be used this way, but it is an excellent extension of existing code.
        * Example: Tents. Again, an imaginative, interesting extension of the wagon code which fulfills a player need.
        * Example: Lizards/Birds that are 'alive' that people use as pets. Rather than coding it to allow NPCs to exist within characters.

***********************

Summary: We've always been about quality over quantity; this is only backing up that ideal.

That has been the staff mission statement since long before I came on board in 2005.

Thanks a lot for posting that. It's always good to understand how the staff work and why.

Quote from: Lou on February 10, 2009, 09:18:43 AM

Quote from: Vanth on February 10, 2009, 04:03:14 AM
I know everyone is going to hate this analogy, and it's honestly not meant to be condescending, but: as long as you live in your parents' house, you have to live by their rules.  You may not get to pick what's in the fridge or what cable package they have either.  It's their house and their money.

This is almost enough to stop me playing before I get too attached. Even as an vague analogy, I find it incredibly off-putting. I'm not your child; I'm your guest. You invited me here. I need to act appropriately, given it's your house. And you need to act appropriately, given I'm your guest.

If that analogy reflects the attitude of the staff at large regarding the power dynamic between staff and players, I would appreciate being told sooner, rather than later.

I like the guest analogy better than the 'kids at parent's house' analogy. Which is more accurate?

They are staff and we are players, that's the best analogy you can ever get.

/capped accuracy

Gah, this whole thread. My tongue is sore, as I've been biting it.

Why? Because a little restraint is needed. Especially over the internet, where politeness seems to be a dirty word and simple manners is a thing forgotten. To me, much of this thread is a tempest in a teapot. I don't see there being so many problems as some people are making out.

Yes, there are issues that need to be addressed. Calmly, with much communication between players and staff. Perhaps threads about 'I left, and here's why' aren't really the best way to go about that.

Once upon a time, I left the game too. For four years. I didn't even read the GDB. One day perhaps I'll go into the reasoning behind it, but not here, not now. The main thing is, I came back. And found the game had changed.

I can understand a little of Bebop's points, but again, I don't think they are such serious issues right now. I am not a person who likes change, yet after keeping an open mind and trying things out, I found much of the changes to be good. I am actually finding myself looking forward to Arm2, this after a time of mourning when I'd heard that one day Arm1 would be no more.

There has been changes, even in my time. I remember being so upset when they lowered the stamina for desert elves nearly in half from what it was. Oh, I was mad about that for a while. There will be changes to come, and not all of them will be agreed with. I don't think we have to worry about player retention so much that we're willing to bend the game's general framework all screwy, or throw too many obstacles in the imms' ways simply because our vision of the game isn't being followed. Arm is fluid, and I have yet to see any change really stop the game cold.

So the imms have their ideas, and we have ours. Sometimes we lose out, sometimes the imms do on seeing plans come to fruition (people die or store their characters sometimes mid-plot). I think middle ground can and has often been achieved in creating these stories we're so fond of.

Bebop, I really do think you may want to consider getting off the GDB as well as the game. Give it a week or so, and do something else. It is only a game, after all. If it's gotten to this point then it's time to go take up basketball or something else. Or cross-stitch. Or something.

And about the cliques? I don't see them. I remember IRC back in the day. I have been to IRC of late. And other places where Arm players gather oocly. Perhaps it's a matter of toning things down a little, to get along. I find that I can only take small doses of any ooc chat/whatever gathering. I do better without getting all worked up about so-and-so not liking me. It's the internet, some people think it's their god-given right to act like an asshole there, so why get worked up if you don't get along with Player X, who's always on IRC/whathaveyou?

Quote from: Semper on February 10, 2009, 12:38:47 PM

Quote from: Lou on February 10, 2009, 09:18:43 AM

Quote from: Vanth on February 10, 2009, 04:03:14 AM
I know everyone is going to hate this analogy, and it's honestly not meant to be condescending, but: as long as you live in your parents' house, you have to live by their rules.  You may not get to pick what's in the fridge or what cable package they have either.  It's their house and their money.

This is almost enough to stop me playing before I get too attached. Even as an vague analogy, I find it incredibly off-putting. I'm not your child; I'm your guest. You invited me here. I need to act appropriately, given it's your house. And you need to act appropriately, given I'm your guest.

If that analogy reflects the attitude of the staff at large regarding the power dynamic between staff and players, I would appreciate being told sooner, rather than later.

I like the guest analogy better than the 'kids at parent's house' analogy. Which is more accurate?

Use whichever analogy you'd like. The basic idea is that you're more than welcome in our house, we want you in our house. We'll throw a few things you like on the grocery list, but we're not going to change the entire diet we feed our family because a few of our guests only want to eat Ramen noodles.

I'd like to take a moment to share my feelings here, much like Vanth, this is not reflective of any sort of staff consensus, and is more personal observation. As background, I started playing in 2001 (or 2000, I can't remember) and first came on staff in 2005. After about a year, I took about a year and a half hiatus from the game entirely. I came back, played a couple PCs, and then decided I wanted to come back on staff because I really enjoy bringing the world to life on a larger scale. I basically reapplied, before the decided to do another staffing round, and without any fanfare or announcement to the general public at large, started staffing a few clans.

What I'd like to stress to you is that I am first and foremost, a player of this game at heart. Yes, I have the perspective of having worked as an immortal, but I have never felt removed from the plights of players.

I'd like to address is OOC communication, and expectations. Some players expect things out of immortals that are unrealistic. Some players expect that because their characters are movers and shakers, they should always succeed. Some players seem to take it very personally when their plans are met with failure, and immediately start suspecting that the immortals dislike them. As I player, I personally never held this attitude. I've always kept myself fairly removed from the GDB, as I found I started enjoying the game a little less once I started reading it. I've never taken part in the Armageddon chat rooms.

Something I have noticed, and this is not a hard and fast rule, and likely will receive a lot of negative feedback, is that very often the players who whine the most (for lack of better terminology) are the ones who are most involved in OOC communication about the game. It seems from to me that these OOC cliques some players have complained about, are even worse for the immortals. It appears that there are certain groups of players who get together and gripe about the game, and the immortals on an OOC level, and that they feed off one another's negativity, and then direct it at the staff either via e-mail or GDB posts. This is not necessarily a staff observation, it is a personal one. This will also not affect the outcomes of events for these players, although certainly players that are difficult to deal with in e-mail communication are less likely to be given sponsored roles - almost regardless of their roleplay ability.

The reason for this is that sponsored roles require a lot of communication. I'm not going to accept a concept from someone who has repeatedly complained and argued and griped at me because they think their character isn't being treated fairly, or deserves some sort of special treatment.

Quote from: help rules
3. Sometimes people are nasty. There are no rules against being extremely
    mean to others that your character may meet, be it cheating, stealing,
    killing, swindling, or otherwise making a fool out of.  The sole
    exception to this is termed 'the rule of consent', and is outlined
    both in "help consent" and in point 5, below.
4. Complaints of unfairness will not be given an audience. If you think
    your character's situation was unfair, too bad. Live with it or don't.
    See point 2 above.

There aren't a lot of rules in Armageddon. It's worth reading them. They certainly put things back into perspective if you haven't read them for a long time and find yourself in a hissy fit about people being mean to you. The abuse is why I stopped looking for another mud when I found Armageddon. The abuse is what keeps me coming back. The abuse is what makes us so fucking awesome, and other muds suck. We're not a fluffy happy lovely land where people are enchanted and they get along. Zalanthas is a shitty place to live. Zalanthas is kind of like hell. Nobody wants to be there, it's a terrible place full of torture and misery, and the only way you're going to succeed is if you can screw everyone else better than they can screw you. This can help answer many questions as to why certain things happen, and other things don't. Why won't your clan go along with your idea? Because they hate you, and your success will make someone else jealous. Is your superior giving you a rough ride? Yeah, of course they are. Kill them. Do it wisely, and you'll get away with it. Screw up, and you'll get busted. No immortal is going to bust you because they're pissed off you killed a (N)PC that was part of a plot they were running, or they enjoyed watching. The immortal is going to bust you because you screwed up, and someone found out. Or maybe your PC is getting scapegoated by other PCs, and it just so happens that you actually did it.

It really kills me when a character does something in such a way that they're busted for it, and they assume the immortals don't like them, or didn't want them to do such and such, and they are therefore getting busted because of some unfair treatment from the staff. To be blunt: grow up. Immortals are held to high standards. I personally fear Nessalin. Really. I fear him. I am constantly looking over my shoulder, hoping I don't do anything to displease the Overlords. They're nice, but man if you do something stupid and unfair to the players you're going to hear about it. We aren't allowed to design plots to kill players. Generally, we aren't allowed to kill players. If a player does die as a result of our actions, we need to send in a full report immediately. It's like a cop drawing a gun. Cops are reluctant to draw their guns because they know they'll have to fill out a bunch of paper work. Well, I'm not keen on paperwork either, so I don't like to pull my gun out and shoot PCs.

I'd like to make something very clear. Not everyone will believe me, but it really is the truth.

We want to make the game fun for you.

I consider my task, and I am far from alone in this, as making the game as enjoyable as it can be. First and foremost, I bring the world to life. Many times, this results in bad things for PCs, because players tend to have their characters do things that are... well, silly. Do I take pleasure in making the game world spank players? Of course I do! Otherwise I wouldn't be on staff. The thing is, that I as a player, also enjoyed the spankings that I received. I can't remember a single time when due to staff animation my PC came out for the better.

In the past, communications have been lax. As Vanth mentioned, we now get hassled by mudmail if we haven't responded to things within a few days. Every piece of correspondence to or from an immortal needs to be CC'd to the mud. Our clan email addresses are automatically forwarded to the mud. There really isn't any room for an immortal to mess around and screw you for personal spite.

On account notes and karma.

I've heard the line about how you should play for the enjoyment of your character and not for karma. It's true, but meh, sucks. Negative account notes are not a big deal. I'm of the mind we shouldn't give players their account notes, because of how often people complain about negative account notes being unfair, or only half the story. OF COURSE THEY ARE ONLY HALF THE STORY. It's our side of the story. We recognize that, and if players seem to be doing well, negative notes will be ignored when considering karma or sponsored roles. The problem is, it's obvious when to add a negative account note. Someone does something stupid and twinky, we make an account note. What about a good account note? Most players play very well almost all of the time. We can't comment people every day for their awesomeness. Good account notes generally happen in the form of awarded karma, when a PC dies and their clan staffer says "Shit, that person was great" and tosses them a point or two.

Does that mean people are overlooked? Yes, all the time. Should we make some sort of cumbersome karma review process? Some people say yes, but I say HELL NO. Do you want a vivid game world, or karma, or both? I'd say both, so we use the system we do currently. I thought I was being overlooked for karma, I emailed the mud account, and I got karma. I don't think I ever once got karma without emailing. Nobody is going to come down on you for asking for karma. We know we overlook it a lot. So please, ask for karma. Just don't take it too hard if you don't get it. Sometimes we honestly haven't watched you enough to know you deserve it, and it will take watching you a little while to feel comfortable in giving it to you.

In the player staff meeting I shared an account note with you. I'd like to show you some more right now.

Quote from: Olgaris' Mortal Account Notes
Comments:
Added wind_elem for special app. -nessalin 7/22/01
Questionable activity with ****, ignoring NPC's and taking advantage of freedom of the code. 8/1/01 -Savak
Some of teh worst thief abuse I've ever seen, reccomend taking pickpocket away from him. -Bhag
Some pretty good RP as ***** mourning his brother's death.  Commented him on a good job. - Halaster 091101
Letting him try half-giant. -Sanvean
I added stone elementalist to let him try that. -Sanvean
Great RPer when others are around. Very, very poor when alone. -Cerebus  2/03/03
Requested *****'s retirement. -Sanvean  2/16/03
*****l stored at player's request. -Naephet  4/25/03
Set with void_elem for special app. -Naephet  4/27/03
Set with guild: psionicist, for special app. -Naephet  6/25/03
Used all the npcs in the Rinthi bar to attack and kill my npc. Very Lame.  Commented. -Nechomacus 12/16/03
Added Nilazi option for special app approved by Brixius. -Nessalin  7/04/04
Stored *****, do not unstore before 1/1/2005 as per Naiona -Raesanos 11/12/04
Removed templar guild since he's done with it (he emailed in pointing this out) -Raesanos  5/03/05
Added sorcerer option, he looks trustworthy enough. -Tiernan  6/29/05
Set with sorcerer option for special application.  Please remove when character dies. -Naiona  6/29/05
Set for sorcerer one more time after 4 hour long attempt.  Please remove when this character dies. -Naiona  7/03/05
Removed sorcerer option on ******'s death. -Naiona  7/15/05
As is obvious from the scroll you're about to see:  doesn't much mind seeing his characters die.  A lot.  Fast. -Xygax  7/15/05

[CENSORED BECAUSE IT'S TOO RECENT]

Kudos:
kudos received about his rp from account *****. -Sanvean 12/13/02
kudos from account ***** about his rp -Sanvean  2/04/03

Flags : wants_rp_feedback |
Karma : 7

Races : desert_elf | dwarf | elf | half_elf | half_giant | human | mul |
Guilds: assassin | burglar | merchant | pick_pocket | ranger | templar | warrior | fire_elem | water_elem | stone_elem | wind_elem | shadow_elem | lightning_elem | void_elem |
Karma Log:
(null)Sanvean set account ***'s karma to 4.
Cerebus removed 1 karma, making 3 total, for repeated casting with no RP over several days despite comment.
Sanvean set account ****'s karma to 5, Doing fine. -  1/07/04.
Sanvean set account ****'s karma to 6, I trust him to play well. -  8/24/04.
Xygax added 1 karma, making 7 total, for very honest and trustworthy player, from what I've seen, in spite of a latent tendency to skillmax a bit - 11/14/04.

Wow... Look at all those shitty account notes. Having never requested my account notes, I was shocked when I got on staff and saw them. I was amazed they let me on staff, and amazed I had any karma at all. The note about killing the a PC with NPCs in a bar I actually explained in an e-mail, and there wasn't even a note saying anything about it! Did it matter? No! I hope it helps show you that bad account notes aren't the end of the world. My saving grace is that I didn't involve myself in inappropriate OOC communication, and I was always polite in e-mails, and provided full and accurate updates when required. Someone previously in this thread said that were purposely withholding information from their staff because they didn't want it leaked through an NPC. That's not going to go over well. It will only be leaked through a NPC if it should have been leaked through a NPC. Withholding info from your staff because you don't want to have the game world react appropriately to your character's actions is not a valid excuse, and not going to win you friends. You have to always remember that the staff are not out to get you. Sometimes the staff will make mean things happen to your character, but that's because it is our job, and it should happen. If it didn't happen, the game would suck. Seriously.

I don't have a real culmination to this post. There's no main focus or point. I joined in the griping for once, I suppose. When I read some of the criticisms against the staff I agree, but for the most part I am amazed by people's expectations, and how worked up they get about things. I guess a final thought that I'd like to leave you with is that you shouldn't rely on staff for your enjoyment of the game. I never did, and I've always continued to enjoy the game. There is so much awesome stuff you can do without the staff it's ridiculous. The staff aren't sponsoring new clans, but there's no reason you need staff to start a clan. Your PC can start a clan. Sure it won't have a history woven into the game from the get-go, but that just means you get to create that history, and that's way cooler, and way more satisfying in the end.

• Players are not entitled to anything. this is a free service provided by the Imms.


• Therefore, Players can truly do only three things: express their opinions (thank you bebop), keep playing (thank you current players), stop playing (thank you bebop.)


• Therefore, if the Imms consistently ignore player wishes and opinions, the population of the game will drop. A small community like this is even more susceptible to this effect.


• Therefore, everything has appropriate checks and balances by its very nature.


• Therefore, I rarely read threads of this nature or have any real concern about the contents. it will all work itself out regardless of my thoughts on the subject. My opinion outside this logic can only based purely on hearsay from other players in the thread and is thus completely irrelevant.

So i will hopefully see you ON THE FIELD OF BATTLE, FOR LOVE OF THE GAME.

Quote from: Agent_137 on February 10, 2009, 03:20:47 PM

• Players are not entitled to anything. this is a free service provided by the Imms.


• Therefore, Players can truly do three things: express their opinions (thank you bebop), keep playing (thank you current players), stop playing (thank you bebop.)


• Therefore, if the Imms consistently ignore player wishes and opinions, the population of the game will drop. A small community like this is even more susceptible to this effect.


• Therefore, everything has appropriate checks and balances by its very nature.


• Therefore, I rarely read threads of this nature or have any real concern about the contents. it will all work itself out regardless of my thoughts on the subject. My opinion outside this logic can only based purely on hearsay from other players in the thread and is thus completely irrelevant.

So i will hopefully see you ON THE FIELD OF BATTLE, FOR LOVE OF THE GAME.

Wow. You could have saved me a lot of thought and typing if you had posted this a little earlier and I could have just quoted it.

hahah, For what it's worth, i did start before yours was posted. But your account notes are sure worth a LOL.

As is obvious from the scroll you're about to see:  doesn't much mind seeing his characters die.  A lot.  Fast. -Xygax  7/15/05

Sometimes, I give myself a little giggle when I read old account-notes I've made.

This was one of those times.

-- X

Quote from: Olgaris on February 10, 2009, 03:20:30 PM
Negative account notes are not a big deal. I'm of the mind we shouldn't give players their account notes, because of how often people complain about negative account notes being unfair, or only half the story. OF COURSE THEY ARE ONLY HALF THE STORY. It's our side of the story. We recognize that, and if players seem to be doing well, negative notes will be ignored when considering karma or sponsored roles. The problem is, it's obvious when to add a negative account note. Someone does something stupid and twinky, we make an account note. What about a good account note? Most players play very well almost all of the time. We can't comment people every day for their awesomeness. Good account notes generally happen in the form of awarded karma, when a PC dies and their clan staffer says "Shit, that person was great" and tosses them a point or two.

As an occasionally hypersensitive player, this was very very helpful to read.  Thanks.

Quote from: Olgaris on February 10, 2009, 03:20:30 PM

Quote from: Olgaris' Mortal Account Notes
Xygax added 1 karma, making 7 total, for very honest and trustworthy player, from what I've seen, in spite of a latent tendency to skillmax a bit - 11/14/04.

And, because it has to be said: :D

I'm going to post my account notes as well, as a means of addressing concerns about OOC cliques and their supposed "necessity" if you want to get anywhere.

Quote from: Cavaticus's mortal account notesAdhira set account ******* karma to 1, consistent effort and reporting with ****** pc - 11/02/05.

Halaster set account *******  karma to 2, A good job, overall, with ****** Sticks to the role consistently, even under duress. -  5/08/06.

Sanvean set account ******* karma to 3, Seems about due to me. -  4/04/07.


Stored at player's request, do not unstore. -Morgenes  1/24/05
Using sap to begin normal sparring, no emotes as to say how he's doing it when his opponent knows he's about to attack AND can see him clearly. -Dynas 2/11/05
Owes Migra (templarate spy) in the barrel a favor for losing at darts -Dakurus 3/20/05
Received acct notes -Raesanos  5/10/05
Stored *******  player wanted less restrictive role. -Nessalin  5/14/05
Approached vennant about *******, got told no. He proceeded to insult vennant then. -Ashyom 6/19/05
Doing well with the ******* side of things, not so active in the ******* department -Adhira 11/02/05
sTored *******  at player's request. -Nessalin 11/03/05
Requested and received account notes. -Sanvean 11/09/05
Helped a new player, which I appreciated. -Sanvean 2/16/06
Requested and received account notes -Halaster  5/17/06
Received very nice kudos from Barzalene on menacing play with *******  -Naiona  9/13/06
rec'd kudos from acct *******  for play as *******  -Vanth 11/09/06
received kudos for *******  from *******  -Djarjak  1/29/07
Requested and received account notes. -Sanvean  4/04/07
Rec'd kudos for play as *******  -Vanth  8/09/07

I had a few other notes afterwards, but that's because I briefly continued playing my mortal character after coming on as staff. Those are the complete sum of my account notes before coming on staff. All three of my karma bumps only came after requesting my account notes (you can cross-reference the dates). I never communicated OOCly with any staff before coming on myself and I think that I had three players on my AIM list.

Now, I'm not saying it's bad to talk to folks outside the game, but there is zero need to inundate yourself in any kind of ooc Armageddon culture to "get ahead."

In all this time I think I've had only four account notes and four karma. And heaps of dead characters.

Hmmm. Maybe I should turn the review flag on.

I want to say that it's responses by the staff like these that puts a player like me at ease.

Quote from: Jingo on February 10, 2009, 04:21:46 PM
In all this time I think I've had only four account notes and four karma. And heaps of dead characters.

Hmmm. Maybe I should turn the review flag on.

I want to say that it's responses by the staff like these that puts a player like me at ease.

Not saying that you have not, Jingo, but what really helps generate notes (both positive and negative) are your direct interactions with staff.  Emails, reports, complaints, anything of that nature.  The more visible you are to us, the more we know about you, and the more we'll put you on the radar for other staff members via your account notes.

Some absolutely awesome players are out there who completely fly under the radar because they never bump elbows or share thoughts with staff.

I'd post my account notes, but apparently (with two exceptions) they only saw the good stuff, so it doesn't make much of a point to do so.

To support Cavaticus' last point:

OOC cliques are more likely to hinder your trust level with immortals than help you get things. Sharing of IC information is the absolute worst thing you can do in the minds of the staff (I'm fairly sure I speak for all of us on this one). If we know you're part of a 'clique' then we're that much more wary that you might be sharing info that shouldn't be shared.

As a rule of thumb, when communicating with your fellow players off of the GDB, don't talk about Armageddon. If it wouldn't fly on the GDB, it shouldn't be said. Everyone would have a lot more fun if people would self-censor themselves to GDB appropriate discussion material.

Quote from: Agent_137 on February 10, 2009, 03:20:47 PM

• Players are not entitled to anything. this is a free service provided by the Imms.


• Therefore, Players can truly do only three things: express their opinions (thank you bebop), keep playing (thank you current players), stop playing (thank you bebop.)


• Therefore, if the Imms consistently ignore player wishes and opinions, the population of the game will drop. A small community like this is even more susceptible to this effect.


• Therefore, everything has appropriate checks and balances by its very nature.


• Therefore, I rarely read threads of this nature or have any real concern about the contents. it will all work itself out regardless of my thoughts on the subject. My opinion outside this logic can only based purely on hearsay from other players in the thread and is thus completely irrelevant.

So i will hopefully see you ON THE FIELD OF BATTLE, FOR LOVE OF THE GAME.

FOR GREAT JUSTICE IN THIS, THE AGE OF THE INTERNET.

I have been staying away from this thread, But Olgaris posted and I would like to back up one point.

QuoteWe aren't allowed to design plots to kill players. Generally, we aren't allowed to kill players. If a player does die as a result of our actions, we need to send in a full report immediately. It's like a cop drawing a gun

In the past I have had a player here and there do the "OMG, IMMS ARE TRYING TO KILL ME!" Or "Fucking IMMS killed my PC, I'm gonna complain!'

I tell them that half the time it is not even staff, it is some nifty script, and the rest of the time...Well...In every single staff event I have seen or heard of, (cept for one in which the staffer later admitted to a mistake) that ended in PC death or deaths, there was a way out that the player neglected to take.

In other words, In all my years of play, I have only witnessed 1 single case where the PC was not given the option to survive. In all other cases the option was there and the player neglected to take it. Which means, that it is the players fault not the staff.

Karma doesn't worry me overmuch. If I want to do a role I just send in a special app. I don't even ever take into consideration what karma level I have. Either they like the concept and think I can pull off the concept in an interesting way for myself and others around me, or I can't.

Quote from: Olgaris on February 10, 2009, 03:20:30 PM
Some players seem to take it very personally when their plans are met with failure, and immediately start suspecting that the immortals dislike them. As I player, I personally never held this attitude.

Olgaris, this is one point that I wanted to bring up simply because I wonder if it might not be a misconception.

I think you're misinterpreting the reasons why a lot of players assume certain staff members don't like them, and that the cause, rather than a player's plans being met with failure, is more in the tone staff members use.

I've received emails from staff members that have been very professional, encouraging, helpful, lighthearted, amusing, rapid, and emails that have done a good job of explaining why staffers do the things they do or why they view certain things (documentation, rules, etc.) differently than I do.

... Unfortunately, on the flip side, I've also received emails from staffers that have been sarcastic, rude, chiding, accusatory, and others that merely had a negative tone that made me wonder why I bothered writing reports or asking questions of said staffer in the first place.

I freely admit that any negative responses to my emails could very well have been a result of the staff member in question perceiving a negative tone in the email I originally sent, but there were definitely a few instances where it felt like I just ended up on somebody's "bad side" and their email interactions with me were truncated and snarky.

Of course, the negative tone in emails is far, far, FAR outweighed by my communications with the immortals that have been helpful and professional, but I was just pointing out that it's easy to develop an attitude that Staff Member X doesn't like you or doesn't like the clan they're staffing when your interactions with them are consistently snippy and negative.

It's a given that, as a staff member on Arm, sometimes you will have to write emails about touchy, "bad" subject matter. A lot of the emails I've gotten about such subjects have been completely deserved on my part, especially back when I was a whippersnapper. However, a "bad" email ("say, we noticed you made a character that immediately ended up working for your old boss, boning your old girlfriend, and renting your old apartment...") doesn't have to be overwhelmingly negative or accusatory in tone.

Not that most staff members don't already do this quite well, but I think it explains a lot more about why some players insist that some staff members don't like them rather than merely "i tried to tame that mek and Olgaris wouldn't let me and it bit me instead! he must be out to get me!"

For some reason, reading Olgaris' post and account notes makes me feel much better about the game. Hard to explain.

Fathi:

A little known fact, that we're discussing right now as immortals, is that you can go to a Highlord or Overlord with a complaint about a staff member, and they'll actually resolve it neutrally. If a storyteller is a jerk, go to a Highlord, if a Highlord is a jerk, go to one of the Overlords. If one of the Overlords is a jerk... Maybe you need to be told what you're hearing, or maybe you need to look at whether or not you actually need whatever it is dealt with to continue enjoying the game. The point is, there are ways to resolve problems that you perceive, and we're working out a way to make that more obvious.

Okay, I've kept really quiet, mainly because this whole thread just makes me want to roll my eyes.

I understand that some of you may not be happy with what you are seeing. I, myself, have had those times where the game, ooc, imms, and whatnot have gotten very frustrating to me and made me step back from the game. But after a lot of thought the last couple months about everything the game entails, RL, and putting everything in perspective, I am now at a happier place. A happier place, that is, until things like this thread pop up.

Threads like this, for me at least, give an overall feeling of "blah" and affects not only my feelings about the GDB, but the game as well. For the most part I've stayed away from this thread because I feel it will only help to bring my thoughts and feelings about the game down. Already, since the several backlashes from the community on the GDB, I have taken a step back from this channel to prevent unnecessary bad feelings towards anyone or anything involved with the game. And then when I think about what this thread could do to the mindset of new players that kind of upsets me. Yes, you disagree with some things or don't like the way things are going, but also think about those new players who are still forming their opinion about the game before you post a thread like this or respond "loudly" to a thread like this.

In my job we are taught that, for the average person, it takes twelve positive interactions to correct one bad one. A thread like this puts those bad thoughts into another players mind, even a player who has never had any problems before. Just like if you were to have issues with your cable company or cell phone company, you go and you tell everyone you know about your bad experience. That, in-turn, affects those current or future customers of those companies. It sticks that little piece in their mind about your bad experience, and the first time anything even miniscule that comes up that isn't right, they connect to your experience and it expands... "Well this happened to so-and-so and now look what's happening to me, I'm going to cancel."

So, in closing and my point, just be careful what you post. This is a large community, and what you say -does- impact others.

Quote from: Clearsighted on February 10, 2009, 08:05:19 PM
For some reason, reading Olgaris' post and account notes makes me feel much better about the game. Hard to explain.

I'm in agreeement with Winterless here. I did not participate much in this thread, except voicing my opinion that ... some things mentioned here, should not really be mentioned so publicly. Both players and Imms. Not because it's untrue, it may very well be true, but because it causes all sorts of negativity that brings a lot of harm and 'very' little good.

Quote from: Olgaris on February 10, 2009, 03:20:30 PM
We aren't allowed to design plots to kill players. Generally, we aren't allowed to kill players. If a player does die as a result of our actions, we need to send in a full report immediately.

>think Best Typo Ever!
>em laughs heartily
>feel happy
>em chews his lip
>think It was a typo, wasn't it?
>feel apprehensive
>change mood apprehensive
>scan

Other than that, I'd like to thank staff for their forthrightness in their responses.  Awesome, folks.  Like someone else said, it gave me some real insight into how staff works.

Morrolan

Upon reading this thread, and the analogies therein, it made me think of the movie Heathers.

Veronica's mom: When teenagers complain that they want to be treated like human beings, it's usually because they are being treated like human beings.

Quote from: Winterless on February 10, 2009, 08:28:21 PMA happier place, that is, until things like this thread pop up.

Alternatively you could argue that this better place is just closing one's eyes to existing problems. By all means, blissfully ignoring or rejecting the issues around you is not necessarily a bad attitude (no offence meant), but I do not think it is fair to expect this of everybody. Generally speaking, when somebody begins criticising (and by this I mean, constructively criticising) the game that he/she has been playing for four years, there might be something, that isn't necessarily wrong, but could be done better.

Even more importantly, the staff are the ones who should appreciate this criticism the most, as it is essentially a give-away piece advice. I am by no means someone who should dictate rules around here, but it is, generally speaking, a good idea to listen to the complains of your community and perhaps attempt to refine the criticised spots rather than go about like nothing happened.

At this point, I'd like to say that it was fun while it lasted and thank everybody for their warm reception. Bye-bye.

PS: To clarify, I was refering to the issues discussed in this topic. Not in the past one.

The things that you complained about are not problems.

Quote from: alicedavignon on February 10, 2009, 09:05:25 PM
....it is, generally speaking, a good idea to listen to the complains of your community

Be a part of the community before you start worrying about our 'complains'.

I appreciate the inside look at staff's policies and general thinking. So this thread has it's silver lining.

QuoteTherefore, Players can truly do only three things: express their opinions (thank you bebop), keep playing (thank you current players), stop playing (thank you bebop.)

LOL!  Funniest thing you've said ever, Agent, even if unintentional.

...

Okay, seriously, this is going to come off harsh, but it's true.  You all suck.  My love of this game was killed for quite a while because of the GDB and the people posting on it.  It was also killed because of OOC communication and cliques.  As I recently said in another thread, I wasn't the one that removed myself from the community that is the GDB and all of you OOC chatters.  I was removed by all of you being cliquey twits.  (This is not intended as a flame but as a semi-humorous, semi-genuine complaint about OOC communication.)  This is the OOC game that is going on.  It has nothing to do with the players having to play an OOC game against the Staff... but the Staff having to deal with the OOC game that the players engage in.  I was once part of it and tried to limit what I told people because I believe that sharing IC information in an OOC manner ruins the game, especially because the people sharing the IC info are only sharing their perspective of it and not the entire truth which noone but the Staff are privy to.  I stopped communicating with people over AIM and etc because I realized that when talking about the game, I was learning IC information without the other intending to give me IC information, mostly based off of what the person was talking about and what the person didn't talk about... and realized that I was handing out IC information without intending to as well.  This game would be better, in many ways, if there was no GDB... no way for the players to form OOC networks that share IC details and opinions about IC events or even opinions about their interactions with the staff... because it only reinforces the clique behavior and the OOC spread of IC information.  For example, there are people that I can now identify in their characters because of how they type, commonly made typos, etc... and then, in turn, I can identify their friends that they ALWAYS play with, forming friendships in game because they are friends out of game, being loyal to each other in game because they are loyal to each other out of game.  I think that is one of the most TRAGIC things that happens in this game, and I'll tell you why.  When you do this, you aren't playing the same game as the rest of us but one where the main focus of the game, eat or be eaten, struggle, suspicion and distrust... these are all gone when you can instantly trust this other person just because s/he is played by your RL friend.  Malifaxis is one of my best friends.  I would not hesitate and I know he would not hesitate to backstab the other's character, literally or figuratively, even with full knowledge that the other's character was played by the other.  Cuusardo is my wife, and the same thing goes there.  THAT is Armageddon.  Stop playing the OOC game and start playing the IC game and you will enjoy it so much more.

As far as the complaints about Vanth's post?  Stuff it, guys.  Bebop made it personal and public.  Any private response would be, in some small way, a capitulation to someone that feels her opinion is better than that of players that have been playing 2, 3, 4 times as long as she has... that feels her opinion is better than that of the staff, who I would be willing to bet have all been with the game longer than she has, first as players.    Going back to the 'kids/guests in the house' analogy... she's been naughty and treated in such fashion, so she whined and complained to the rest of the people in the house, so Mom had to set the story straight so that none of the other kids/guests started buying into the warped and limited view of the story as presented by Bebop.  Final thing to say on this portion of this thread:  Thank you Vanth, for your post, because I think it was well-warranted and long-overdue.

Anything else I could say has already been said, so I will not repeat it.  You're all big boys and girls and can read for yourselves.

Quote from: spawnloser on February 10, 2009, 09:24:35 PM

QuoteTherefore, Players can truly do only three things: express their opinions (thank you bebop), keep playing (thank you current players), stop playing (thank you bebop.)

LOL!  Funniest thing you've said ever, Agent, even if unintentional.

...

Okay, seriously, this is going to come off harsh, but it's true.  You all suck.  My love of this game was killed for quite a while because of the GDB and the people posting on it.  It was also killed because of OOC communication and cliques.  As I recently said in another thread, I wasn't the one that removed myself from the community that is the GDB and all of you OOC chatters.  I was removed by all of you being cliquey twits.  (This is not intended as a flame but as a semi-humorous, semi-genuine complaint about OOC communication.)  This is the OOC game that is going on.  It has nothing to do with the players having to play an OOC game against the Staff... but the Staff having to deal with the OOC game that the players engage in.  I was once part of it and tried to limit what I told people because I believe that sharing IC information in an OOC manner ruins the game, especially because the people sharing the IC info are only sharing their perspective of it and not the entire truth which noone but the Staff are privy to.  I stopped communicating with people over AIM and etc because I realized that when talking about the game, I was learning IC information without the other intending to give me IC information, mostly based off of what the person was talking about and what the person didn't talk about... and realized that I was handing out IC information without intending to as well.  This game would be better, in many ways, if there was no GDB... no way for the players to form OOC networks that share IC details and opinions about IC events or even opinions about their interactions with the staff... because it only reinforces the clique behavior and the OOC spread of IC information.  For example, there are people that I can now identify in their characters because of how they type, commonly made typos, etc... and then, in turn, I can identify their friends that they ALWAYS play with, forming friendships in game because they are friends out of game, being loyal to each other in game because they are loyal to each other out of game.  I think that is one of the most TRAGIC things that happens in this game, and I'll tell you why.  When you do this, you aren't playing the same game as the rest of us but one where the main focus of the game, eat or be eaten, struggle, suspicion and distrust... these are all gone when you can instantly trust this other person just because s/he is played by your RL friend.  Malifaxis is one of my best friends.  I would not hesitate and I know he would not hesitate to backstab the other's character, literally or figuratively, even with full knowledge that the other's character was played by the other.  Cuusardo is my wife, and the same thing goes there.  THAT is Armageddon.  Stop playing the OOC game and start playing the IC game and you will enjoy it so much more.

As far as the complaints about Vanth's post?  Stuff it, guys.  Bebop made it personal and public.  Any private response would be, in some small way, a capitulation to someone that feels her opinion is better than that of players that have been playing 2, 3, 4 times as long as she has... that feels her opinion is better than that of the staff, who I would be willing to bet have all been with the game longer than she has, first as players.    Going back to the 'kids/guests in the house' analogy... she's been naughty and treated in such fashion, so she whined and complained to the rest of the people in the house, so Mom had to set the story straight so that none of the other kids/guests started buying into the warped and limited view of the story as presented by Bebop.  Final thing to say on this portion of this thread:  Thank you Vanth, for your post, because I think it was well-warranted and long-overdue.

Anything else I could say has already been said, so I will not repeat it.  You're all big boys and girls and can read for yourselves.

I'll always miss Spawnloser's presence in the game.

Hey, I'm still playing. :)  I just don't tell anyone who I'm playing or share any details about my current characters with anyone except those two that I mentioned that I know will not favor my character just because it is my character... and I still don't tell them much.  I also haven't been doing leadership roles for a while.  I got tired of being responsible for other people's fun... or at least having others think that way about me.  I love this game... I just hit that wall that Vanth mentioned, and I finally got past it by doing exactly as I described above.

Quote from: spawnloser on February 10, 2009, 09:28:50 PM
Hey, I'm still playing. :)  I just don't tell anyone who I'm playing or share any details about my current characters with anyone except those two that I mentioned that I know will not favor my character just because it is my character... and I still don't tell them much.  I also haven't been doing leadership roles for a while.  I got tired of being responsible for other people's fun... or at least having others think that way about me.  I love this game... I just hit that wall that Vanth mentioned, and I finally got past it by doing exactly as I described above.

Oh. I'm glad you still play then. I thought you said above that you did not.

Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon Crackageddon

Actually, I'm very interested in seeing yours Shalooonsh.  ;D

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 10, 2009, 08:31:32 PM

Quote from: Clearsighted on February 10, 2009, 08:05:19 PM
For some reason, reading Olgaris' post and account notes makes me feel much better about the game. Hard to explain.

Spawnloser's first paragraph hit a number of important points that I agree with very much. Read it again. Then read it another time.

Spawnloser is totally right. I watched a group of people constantly attack him until he just disappeared from the GDB altogether. It pissed me off honestly. Vanth's post was justified in my opinion and it made me feel alot better about past experiences where I wonder if I may have been on the wrong end of favoritism. Maybe it was just purely IC and I was just unlucky to have the pc where I did at that point in the staff's plot.

The use of IC information gained OOCly does unspeakable damage to the game. Luckily, it's easy to restrict who you talk to.

Also, I found this post on the Archives to be a good example of how OOC communication can be so bad:
http://www.armageddon.org/HyperNews/get/general-archive1996/7.html

Quote from: Cutthroat on February 11, 2009, 07:11:43 AM
The use of IC information gained OOCly does unspeakable damage to the game. Luckily, it's easy to restrict who you talk to.

Also, I found this post on the Archives to be a good example of how OOC communication can be so bad:
http://www.armageddon.org/HyperNews/get/general-archive1996/7.html

Damn, that's a pretty nifty story. I like it!

Quote from: Cutthroat on February 11, 2009, 07:11:43 AM
The use of IC information gained OOCly does unspeakable damage to the game. Luckily, it's easy to restrict who you talk to.

Also, I found this post on the Archives to be a good example of how OOC communication can be so bad:
http://www.armageddon.org/HyperNews/get/general-archive1996/7.html

You know, I've read this story before, but every time I read it, I still get upset at the potential that was lost. *shakes head* I'm sure people will continue to use OOC as long as we have the internet and the like...but for the love of the game, try not to do so.

Quote from: Cutthroat on February 11, 2009, 07:11:43 AMAlso, I found this post on the Archives to be a good example of how OOC communication can be so bad:
http://www.armageddon.org/HyperNews/get/general-archive1996/7.html

It's an interesting story and serves as a pretty good example.  It's also ironic the author's rant ended up spreading OOC information on the existence of sleep and doppleganger magicks, and to a lot more than ten or twenty people.  I've had the fortune to witness very little magick of any kind in game, so I doubt I would have ever come across a sleeping spell anyways, but now if I do it won't seem as extraordinary. To quote from the link, "[e]ven seemingly insignificant things like this, hurt the game, and ruin other people's fun."

One of those the good outweighs the bad kind of things I think though. Yea, sleep magicks and doppleganger shit. Lessons worth far more though.

I am really wanting to play again after reading the last few imm posts. I am amazed at hw many comments they received. I need to stop playing Joe Schmoes!

nothing wrong with boring Amoses, as long as you keep in touch with your Imms, have desires, dreams and failures, then ask for your account notes about every 6 months, you will get your karma!

My biggest thing with all this matter is interaction. I've always been one with ideas and such and always tried to get in touch with Imms. But alot of times I don't get answered, and I -used- to get very menacing replies to some emails. I like to be as polite and respectful in emails as possible, so those early experiences kind of shyed me away. Then I got a couple bad account notes and I thought my world had ended. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm one of those players who have gone under the radar and am to afraid to get noticed because I still fear that the imms have a general dislike for me, for whatever reason. I guess what would be nice is if I could get some kind of personal report, but then again I understand how hard it is to spot one single player out of many.