I think people seem to forget about the technology levels of Zalanthas.
"Crafting" clothes takes a long time. It should, at least, take an In Character day to fit a 'shirt' together. Or a cloak. Or Pants.
Let me say this again, because some people won't understand the first time.
It should take someone all day long to make a shirt, with the technology level of Zalanthas. Just because you can dish out 10 shirts in a day, codewise, doesn't mean you should.
Just try and remember how long your girlfriend worked trying to get her 'Prom' dress just right.
Um, all I have to say on this one is, Go to a SCA event someday, There are skilled crafts people sitting around putting out cloaks, shirts, tunics, leggings, breechclouts, robes, and many other things using nothing more then 12th century tech, most easily putting out one or more things an hour if they feel like it, complete with some rather snazzy hand stitched embroidery while talking and drinking mead....Now, gowns and other (noble) Styles of clothing, yes, they can take from 4 hours to several weeks.
And these people just do it as a hobby, imagine if they had to make a living at it.
Agreed X-D, I can mend a pair of pants with about an 8 inch rip in about 3 minutes and I'm no seamstress. People who have made that their lives work undoubtedly faster and more efficiently. Would -I- personally outfit my harem of three in a day? No, I think that's unrealistic.
Perhaps the delay should be longer? Would that be pleasing to you?
I'm not saying that the delay should be longer, I'm just saying people should seriously think about what they are doing and how they go about doing stuff.
I'm with mansa. It takes a lot longer than a few hours, even with a sewing machine and proper fitting guide and other such modern tools, to produce anything more complicated than a shirt. This is truth because I say it. After all...
My mother was a tailor. She sewed my new blue jeans.
That goes for other things too. I've never played one of these types of crafters, but I'd say if people aren't taking into account how hard it is to cut or even split hard woods with STEEL when they do it with stone, it's a bad thing. Um...
Acctually, putting together simple clothing like pants or a shirt isn't that hard. Specially when the clothing most the time won't have elastic, or a zipper or any sort of fancy thing. Most the time not even having pockets or anything else. With most fabrics by hand probaby not even a minute per inch stitch, and thats unskilled.
The technology level may be lower, but so are clothing standards, styles, and everything else. Now if your working with fancy styles, and silk, satin and frilly stuff, it's probably going to take awhile... But when your making a sleeveless shirt which could be no more then making a sack and cutting a whole in the top, it doesn't take that long.
Creeper
I think there are plenty of PC crafters who push the limits of the system. I've said before, just because you can fill all the buying shops with 5 of each item, doesn't mean you should.
Part of the problem may be how much some people craft. While it is realistic for someone who makes their living as a crafter to craft for most of an IC day, that doesn't necessarily mean, "make as many items as you codewise can during that time". However, I would think that one could easily make more than one item an IC day, if they are simple items.
Rather, what I think the problem is, is the fact that Kadius is buying so many independent products. If Kadius really wants to sell your flowing white capes or white feather earrings so much, then they'll hire you. My suggestion: limit each person to selling one of each item per boot. That will still allow people to make a living, without allowing them to be richer than top-house nobles.
Or, to be really harsh (harsh is what the game's about, yes?), don't have Kadius or Salarr buy outsiders' products at all. And then all those PC crafters can hawk their wares and hustle for sales, and cater to actual PC demand.
Codewise it takes far longer to make most things(clothing) then it does IRL
Armor and weapons on the other hand, codewise you make them at about 100x's faster then you could IRL:)
QuoteRather, what I think the problem is, is the fact that Kadius is buying so many independent products. If Kadius really wants to sell your flowing white capes or white feather earrings so much, then they'll hire you. My suggestion: limit each person to selling one of each item per boot. That will still allow people to make a living, without allowing them to be richer than top-house nobles.
Or, to be really harsh (harsh is what the game's about, yes?), don't have Kadius or Salarr buy outsiders' products at all. And then all those PC crafters can hawk their wares and hustle for sales, and cater to actual PC demand.
Well, either one of these answers would make it so that there are no independant pc crafters/merchants, Absolutly no way that one would be able to make a living, specialy with what they even have the skill to craft at the start, specialy considering fail rate and cost of cloth. Hell, since as far as I know you can't make your own cloth, You would be hard pressed to make enough to cover the cloth prices, let alone have enough to buy food and water....Also, I see quite a few pc clothing crafters selling to pc's.
One of the reasons I don't mind them crafting in a tavern, kinda advertises.
I'm with X-D. Seriously, consider playing a merchant crafter, even...pretend you started with 2000 'sid. that's 50 pieces of cloth...maybe a bit more, depending on how well they haggle, but still no more than 80. They suck when they start off, making one out of 5 items, if lucky. That's 10-14 succesful craft attempts...Wow, even. I want to have only my clothes and 10 items that I've crafted to my name with nowhere convenient to sell them.
On another note, filling up the shops with 5 of an item isn't as huge a profit as some people may think. Cloth isn't cheap, and it takes a little while of getting your haggle up before you're actually turning anything near a respectable profit. Not to give away too much, but early on, it's hard to make more than a few coin profit off any one item, but mind that 4 of 5 of your pieces of cloth were torn too.
Not everyone just crafts one after the other after the other. Granted, there was one time I did three things in a RL 45mins and got a note about it, mostly because I didnt emote too much because of the "forced" emotes the games throws in there. That said, I know some people that can sew simple outfits very quickly and my neighbor's son is a RL jeweler and with simple materials, even some stone gems, he can easily make a few pieces of jewelry in a RL day.
I was also guilty of playing at work and so my mind wasnt completely focused on the game and it was the first time I had a certain material to try and work with, so I was interested in seeing the main descriptions of the items I just found out I could make.
I LOATHE those forced emotes. Because I could be emoting something that the "game" just showed me as doing a few moments earlier while it's moving me onto something else. So usually I do something like the following :
craft linen into loose blouse
*starts crafting with no clue what others are seeing*
emote cuts slowly at the fabric, turning it as she cuts out a few pieces.
*waits till the Made it or Destroyed it note*
holds object
wield needle
emote picking up a few cut pieces of linen, @ threads a needle and starts to stitch the pieces together.
I might 'work' on that piece of clothing for five to ten minutes RL or up to thirty if my pc is distracted talking to others or using the way, etc. I dont mind people selling 5 of a kind in the shop. Its a harsh world, waaaah, get there first. Granted, I can say that because I havent even bothered to go sell things my pc has made in a long long time. (After the note my crafting came to a very low to rarely crafting IC)
The old saying works best here though, "Lead by example"
Its a game, worry about your actions and hopefully no one will abuse code to the point that it disrupts roleplay for your pc in an ooc manner.
:)
I've gotta say I agree with crymerci. To a point. You make MUCH more money being an independant crafter that you do working for a house. How many crafters does Salarr really get? And yes, people want money. When I was in Kadius the imms only wanted to pay the crafters 250 sid a month. Because there were so many. Um, hello! Sure there's millions of VNPC. But we NEED the PCs. But still, not everyone would work for a house. So.... I don't know. It's a subject that really could go eather way.
-Tortall, who is very confused.
What "forced emotes"? There are no emotes in the crafting system, other than "begins crafting" and the "completion emote" (whatever that happens to be, for the item, based on success or failure -- "Soandso tears the cloth, rendering it unusable." Or "Soandso finishes crafting a lovely head-wearable bra of pink-polka-dot sandcloth".
Quote from: "tortall"...When I was in Kadius the imms only wanted to pay the crafters 250 sid a month. Because there were so many. Um, hello! Sure there's millions of VNPC. But we NEED the PCs. But still, not everyone would work for a house. So.... I don't know. It's a subject that really could go eather way.
There are IC reasons for that, which I won't go into.
Hehe .... the GDB is often times used as place to whine and grumble about what others do wrong - How about you look at how you do .... things?!? When you're God and can do everything perfectly, then me and you shall speak. Until then I remain king of the world.
I'm not thirsty for an IC month.. Still drinking, once per day. Eating once per day, at least. Never crafting more than needed... Why? 'cause I've enough coins to RP what I'd like to...
If I played the armorcrafter, I would try hunting all scrabs and crafting their shells into five armors of every kind I can craft. Because I would want to have as much 'sids as I can earn to RP drinking fine drinks in a good tavern at weekend.
OK crafting 18 clothes per day may be twinkish but I don't think selling five of each kind is twinkish. I once tried an armorcrafter and I was unable to make him live well, selling all the things I could craft. Still he was always thirsty running after the creatures of Zalanthas under the sun.
... And... There are usually 5 or 6 people logged in when I play. If the Houses stop buying, my all crafter characters will surely die.
As a last note; OK it's a tiny bit IC but... Congratulate me! 100th hour for the second time...
Quote from: "Cenghiz"OK crafting 18 clothes per day may be twinkish but I don't think selling five of each kind is twinkish...
Let me give you an example:
You've made 7 scrab shell armguards. You go to the Salarri's, and sell 5 of them. You've now limited _EVERY_ other person in the game who has 'armorcrafting' as a skill to sell to _that_ merchant. You're taking advantage of the code by reaching the limit of what they could buy.
Something to think of, eh?
You know, the more I read this thread, the more I ask myself, "Why in Krath would Kadius or Salarr want to buy your amateur work?" Are they lacking for half-skilled apprentice crafters? I doubt it. Where's the demand? Unless it's a more complex item, I think we should assume any House crafter could make it as well as you.
So you don't have enough money for materials? Apprentice on with a merchant house, or get another job of some sort. Or sell your clothing to PCs...there is a market for it, only right now you're both profiting the middleman.
QuoteYou know, the more I read this thread, the more I ask myself, "Why in Krath would Kadius or Salarr want to buy your amateur work?" Are they lacking for half-skilled apprentice crafters? I doubt it. Where's the demand? Unless it's a more complex item, I think we should assume any House crafter could make it as well as you.
Because they can see the potential for a profit in it, and like anyone successful in business, they know a good deal when they see one. Maybe the house crafters are busily focused on maintaining the other items in that merchant's inventory, or have some special orders they are attending to. Or better yet, they feel those simple items don't give the high margins of gain they expect, and simply purchase them as they become available from the local economy (IE PC's).
I think the viewpoint of some in this thread has been too narrow. We forget that Tuluk is a pretty good size city, with many, many people in it. I am not talking about the 20+ PC's that frequent it, but the hundreds, if not thousands of VNPC's that are about as well. It would be unrealistic for someone to expect a PC armor crafter could survive on only selling to the PC population.
In summary, each merchant is running a business, and most likely each business can only focus on so much of a particular area of it. Trade between minor crafters to the bigger houses makes sense, and those house merchants usually take full advantage of it.
-DW
Mansa, you're right, too. If someone crafts five scrab shell helmets in the first five IC days after reboot even with no twinkish behaivours, he'd prevent others to drink ale that OOC week a little.
I can't think of a solution... My all crafter characters would still want and work for a fine bottle of spirits every night. Maybe armor becomes more fragile so people buy more armor, but then the newly started characters would be really short of coins after their first armor broke. And the same won't work for silk clothes...
I'm planning creating another crafter after current one dies, so I'll follow the replies and obey the majority... What to do?
Quote from: "crymerci"Rather, what I think the problem is, is the fact that Kadius is buying so many independent products. If Kadius really wants to sell your flowing white capes or white feather earrings so much, then they'll hire you. My suggestion: limit each person to selling one of each item per boot. That will still allow people to make a living, without allowing them to be richer than top-house nobles.
Or, to be really harsh (harsh is what the game's about, yes?), don't have Kadius or Salarr buy outsiders' products at all. And then all those PC crafters can hawk their wares and hustle for sales, and cater to actual PC demand.
This is something that I have been steadily working on, but everytime I change this, players complain vociferously. Selling to shops, whether or not it makes sense IC, is a mainstay of the game's economy, and to just remove that would throw a lot of things into turmoil, so most of the changes have been gradual. Furthermore, there's the issue of those few items that shops would want to buy, such as their own goods, and selective buying isn't possible at the moment. Also, we don't want to punish those newbies, or players who just found a shirt and want to make a profit off it.
Naephet
Something I can see though, making clothing shouldn't be a very popular independant money-maker anyway. And if you're going to be an independant tailor money-maker, making low quality items and selling them isn't the way to go, apprenticing or getting a low skill job is, that way, you have either a lot of instruction, or a lot of materials, and maybe help from your peers. Same deal for armor crafters, jewelers, bowyers, etc., it makes sense that if you're a city dwelling artisan, you'd probably realize the inefficiency of buying up cloth, running off and learning the hard way, at your expense, and you'd probably choose either an apprenticeship or a job.
Now, how that fixes up problems with Kadius buying sacks with holes in them, well, in a job situation, you're working for someone, your results are going to someone and you don't have to sell them. In apprenticeships, you're not making much, learning more, and the mentor would probably have an outlet to move or sell those items to anyway.
(n/t)