In the North, when you address one of His Chosen you usually say something like: His Chosen Lord Funnypants of House Dasari.
What if it's a Hlum (ie houseless) noble. Would you say: His Chosen Lord Funnypants of the Hlum? Or: His Chosen Hlum Lord Funnypants?
When playing a commoner and an upper-caster in Tuluk alike, I used to just say, "Chosen Lady/Lord."
If the Hlum in question chose to formally introduce themselves as Chosen Lady Ivana of the Hlum, then that's their thing. And I imagine that, it being Tuluk, other people might take the habit up so as to not appear to show disrespect by shortening the title.
I think few nobles even use their House title, except when introducing themselves.
I think that Hlum lords/ladies should not have 'Chosen' in their title, to differentiate them from Surif nobles. But that's just me. If straight lord/lady is too Southern, there are all sorts of potential alternates to Chosen, like Lord Hunstman, Risen Lord, Lord Champion, etc..
Chosen Lord Funnypants of the Hlum would sound weird, though, because no one would ever say Chosen Lord Fancyhat of the Surif. Maybe the solution is to encourage Hlum nobles to take on family names, or to be granted family names by the Sun King. I dub thee Chosen Lord Khortoc McGortok, or such.
Quote from: jstorrie on December 07, 2008, 03:58:38 AM
Khortoc McGortok
Can I still this name? I think you just named my traveling bard/nomad.
Quote from: jstorrie on December 07, 2008, 03:58:38 AM
I think that Hlum lords/ladies should not have 'Chosen' in their title, to differentiate them from Surif nobles. But that's just me. If straight lord/lady is too Southern, there are all sorts of potential alternates to Chosen, like Lord Hunstman, Risen Lord, Lord Champion, etc..
Chosen Lord Funnypants of the Hlum would sound weird, though, because no one would ever say Chosen Lord Fancyhat of the Surif. Maybe the solution is to encourage Hlum nobles to take on family names, or to be granted family names by the Sun King. I dub thee Chosen Lord Khortoc McGortok, or such.
I dunno that I agree with the idea of not saying "Chosen Lord" because I feel like they are still "chosen" by the Sun-King ... just through the process of the Grey Hunt as opposed to the process of birth. Also, I'm not sure they need to be differentiated from the Surif nobles (at least on the surface), since the docs say that Hlum nobles can marry into Surif houses with no problem, at which point they would effectively /be/ Surif nobles, wouldn't they?
I do think it might be interesting to just call them Chosen Lord Bickety-Boo and not have any sort of house title at all, since they don't have one. People normally use that title for every Lord or Lady in any case, so to me, it would seem normal and happy on the surface, but if used in a different situation where one was addressing everyone by their full title, the lack of a house name would subtly come into light.
Quote from: musashi on December 07, 2008, 04:52:56 AM
Quote from: jstorrie on December 07, 2008, 03:58:38 AM
I think that Hlum lords/ladies should not have 'Chosen' in their title, to differentiate them from Surif nobles. But that's just me. If straight lord/lady is too Southern, there are all sorts of potential alternates to Chosen, like Lord Hunstman, Risen Lord, Lord Champion, etc..
Chosen Lord Funnypants of the Hlum would sound weird, though, because no one would ever say Chosen Lord Fancyhat of the Surif. Maybe the solution is to encourage Hlum nobles to take on family names, or to be granted family names by the Sun King. I dub thee Chosen Lord Khortoc McGortok, or such.
I dunno that I agree with the idea of not saying "Chosen Lord" because I feel like they are still "chosen" by the Sun-King ... just through the process of the Grey Hunt as opposed to the process of birth. Also, I'm not sure they need to be differentiated from the Surif nobles (at least on the surface), since the docs say that Hlum nobles can marry into Surif houses with no problem, at which point they would effectively /be/ Surif nobles, wouldn't they?
I do think it might be interesting to just call them Chosen Lord Bickety-Boo and not have any sort of house title at all, since they don't have one. People normally use that title for every Lord or Lady in any case, so to me, it would seem normal and happy on the surface, but if used in a different situation where one was addressing everyone by their full title, the lack of a house name would subtly come into light.
Very nicely put.
Also, I kind of agree that it wouldn't make much sense to take the 'Chosen' part from their title, if anything, they are more specifically Chosen than the Surif. Because each Hlum is a Chosen, winner of the Grey Hunt and blessed of the Sun King, their line of title ending with themselves, rather than passing on to be inherited. They are each Chosen, non of them simply happening into the role be birth. Although I do like the idea of differentiating the consorts of Hlum nobles, being as they are kind of fringe nobility. That's just me though.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on December 07, 2008, 05:24:29 AM
Because each Hlum is a Chosen, winner of the Grey Hunt and blessed of the Sun King, their line of title ending with themselves, rather than passing on to be inherited.
^-- I think that's a much more useful way of introducing a Hlum nobility.
Quote from: musashi on December 07, 2008, 04:52:56 AM
I dunno that I agree with the idea of not saying "Chosen Lord" because I feel like they are still "chosen" by the Sun-King ... just through the process of the Grey Hunt as opposed to the process of birth.
The use of the title "Chosen" for nobles in Tuluk doesn't refer to their birth; it refers to the fact that the families were literally chosen by Muk Utep to be nobles, at various times in the history of Tuluk. For some of these families, they were originally chosen at the formation of Tuluk, but after the occupation by Allanak they were again chosen as noble families. (Not all of the former noble families were chosen again...this is why Tuluk has fallen noble houses. Muk didn't deem them good enough to re-choose.) And Lyksae, of course, was not a chosen family prior to the occupation, but were first chosen after.
Thus, Hlum nobles are chosen in the same literal sense that Surif nobles are.
Surif nobles probably wouldn't marry Hlum nobles.
Quote from: bardbard#4 on December 07, 2008, 07:01:29 PM
Surif nobles probably wouldn't marry Hlum nobles.
Quote from: Hlum Nobles, http://www.armageddon.org/ic/northlands/nobility/index.html#Hlum%20NoblesAnd although Hlum nobles are born as commoners, they become entitled to the same benefits as a Chosen of a Surif noble house, and are bound by the same restrictions. Hlum nobles may marry into Surif Houses, or have romantic relationships with Surif nobles. Alternately, they may keep one commoner mate as Hlum consort, but otherwise they must give up all romantic liaisons with commoners, just as Surif nobles do.
I kinda would like to call them
Chosen Lord Bela of the Grey hunt in year 48 of the 20th age.
I didn't say they couldn't marry. I said they probably wouldn't.
Surif marriages are highly political. It is unlikely, given what is needed to become a Hlum noble, that a Chosen House would approve the marriage to a Hlum noble.
Quote from: bardbard#4 on December 07, 2008, 07:12:58 PM
I didn't say they couldn't marry. I said they probably wouldn't.
Surif marriages are highly political. It is unlikely, given what is needed to become a Hlum noble, that a Chosen House would approve the marriage to a Hlum noble.
Maybe to House Lyksae, because they are a bunch of tribal warriors anyways. Get some fresh hunt blood in their loins.
Ya maybe Lyksae, but that would be about it. I can't see any of the other houses approving it, apart from some strange extenuating circumstance.
Sometimes, you just want to collect all the Hlum nobles. To ensure everyone thinks your house is better than others. Afterall, you have GENERATIONS of independently chosen Hlums in your midst.
(http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/nbc_the_more_you_know.jpg)
Hlum can and do marry into Surif houses, like any marriage amongst nobility it's a matter of politics. If the Hlum has an advantage, resource, skill, connections or any other such thing that the House considers to their benefit then the Hlum would be married into the House. At that point they are no longer Hlum, they are Surif and prejudices would be few, and any noblity that held such prejudice would, as a form of protocol, never display it.
Hlum are Chosen Lords and Ladies as they are Chosen by Muk Utep just as every other noble house is Chosen. If you look at the history of the Northern Houses you will see that at some point or other all have risen to their place as Chosen in some manner or other, with birth being only one of these.
For the commoner a Hlum noble is exactly that, a noble, and all nobles are Chosen Lords and Ladies. Hlum are usually the most approachable of the nobility but are held to exactly the same standards and protocols as any other noble born in Tuluk. Commoners and nobility alike would address the Hlum as Chosen Lord or Lady and may sometimes add their given name to that if they are granted use of it.
If you were to become a traitor, you would be viewed as ALWAYS a traitor, just pretending not to be. It would be a disgrace and your entire life's work would be reviewed, you would be infamous and disreputable, dishonored.
Likewise, if you become a Chosen in Tuluk, you may as well always have BEEN a Chosen. That is to say, the Hlum's life had been lived In His Light and he had always BEEN destined to be a Chosen, always had that potential, and it is a glorious affirmation of that person's journey into being Chosen by the Sun King. It would be difficult for a Tuluki to look at a Hlum Chosen as having once been common, even if that Hlum noble tactfully downplayed himself, or professed at having once been common. Suggesting his common roots would be parallel to the trials of the Chosen during Occupation, a nod of recognition, hardly examined as anything but good taste and a further display of that Hlum's nobility and innate dignity.
Hlum are Chosen. And we have always been at war with Oceania.
I likewise, think that Hlum are probably apt to marry into a Surif House for political reasons.
You may be putting too much southern sauce on your northern ideas, bardbard#4 :)
Quote from: Adhira on December 07, 2008, 08:13:21 PM
Commoners and nobility alike would address the Hlum as Chosen Lord or Lady and may sometimes add their given name to that if they are granted use of it.
As we do now ... but if you're trying to use their full and completely title, what goes where a Surif's House name normally goes?
Maybe just their last name, if they have one?
Sorta like templars who come from merchant houses or what have you.
That works for me :D
But wait so ... you continue to address a Templar from a noble house by including their former house name, but you would not include the merchant house name if said Templar came from a merchant house?
Quote from: KIA on December 08, 2008, 12:50:03 AM
If you were to become a traitor, you would be viewed as ALWAYS a traitor, just pretending not to be. It would be a disgrace and your entire life's work would be reviewed, you would be infamous and disreputable, dishonored.
Likewise, if you become a Chosen in Tuluk, you may as well always have BEEN a Chosen. That is to say, the Hlum's life had been lived In His Light and he had always BEEN destined to be a Chosen, always had that potential, and it is a glorious affirmation of that person's journey into being Chosen by the Sun King. It would be difficult for a Tuluki to look at a Hlum Chosen as having once been common, even if that Hlum noble tactfully downplayed himself, or professed at having once been common. Suggesting his common roots would be parallel to the trials of the Chosen during Occupation, a nod of recognition, hardly examined as anything but good taste and a further display of that Hlum's nobility and innate dignity.
Hlum are Chosen. And we have always been at war with Oceania.
So then, a Hlum who ceases to be a Hlum, is one who has fallen out of favor with the Sun King? That'd make them - in lower standing than ordinary commoners, who have received no attention one way or another wouldn't it? Ordinary commoners have never "fallen out of favor" because they were never in it. But a Hlum has had a special thing happen...and that special thing has been intentionally taken away. Even if it's taken away with a smile, shouldn't that make the ex-noble somewhat of a pariah?
If a Tenneshi noble was informed that he is no longer a Tenneshi, and no longer entitled to wear the trappings or bear the name of nobility...you'd think he'd be shunned by every other Tenneshi in the city - and by most of the other nobles, at least in public. Wouldn't it be the same for a Hlum?
If a Hlum is expected to be treated the same *with* the favor, shouldn't he be expected to be treated the same if the favor is taken away (for whatever reason)?
Quote from: Lizzie on December 08, 2008, 08:11:57 AM
So then, a Hlum who ceases to be a Hlum, is one who has fallen out of favor with the Sun King? That'd make them - in lower standing than ordinary commoners, who have received no attention one way or another wouldn't it?
Maybe in the eyes of certain people, but overall, I'm not sure that it would.
For example, if a person is a Sergeant in the Army, and they get knocked down to a Corporal ... they aren't somehow any less of a Corporal than the other Corporals around them because they used to be a Corporal before, became a Sergeant, and are now a Corporal again.
Their standing within the military (on the surface at least) is even with every other Corporal reguardless of their spotty history.
So ... to cross that over into the caste system of Tuluk ... if a person is Chosen, and they fall out of favor and become a commoner, sure people might snicker and they might get more flak than your average commoner because of their history, but I think overall they're still within the commoner caste, not somehow below it. If the person messed up big enough to deserve being lower than a commoner, I think the Templarate would just declare them a slave. (This is assuming they aren't killed outright).
Quote from: Lizzie on December 08, 2008, 08:11:57 AM
Quote from: KIA on December 08, 2008, 12:50:03 AM
If you were to become a traitor, you would be viewed as ALWAYS a traitor, just pretending not to be. It would be a disgrace and your entire life's work would be reviewed, you would be infamous and disreputable, dishonored.
Likewise, if you become a Chosen in Tuluk, you may as well always have BEEN a Chosen. That is to say, the Hlum's life had been lived In His Light and he had always BEEN destined to be a Chosen, always had that potential, and it is a glorious affirmation of that person's journey into being Chosen by the Sun King. It would be difficult for a Tuluki to look at a Hlum Chosen as having once been common, even if that Hlum noble tactfully downplayed himself, or professed at having once been common. Suggesting his common roots would be parallel to the trials of the Chosen during Occupation, a nod of recognition, hardly examined as anything but good taste and a further display of that Hlum's nobility and innate dignity.
Hlum are Chosen. And we have always been at war with Oceania.
So then, a Hlum who ceases to be a Hlum, is one who has fallen out of favor with the Sun King? That'd make them - in lower standing than ordinary commoners, who have received no attention one way or another wouldn't it? Ordinary commoners have never "fallen out of favor" because they were never in it. But a Hlum has had a special thing happen...and that special thing has been intentionally taken away. Even if it's taken away with a smile, shouldn't that make the ex-noble somewhat of a pariah?
As you state, commoners have never been in that much favor. Having the honor of being Chosen as a Hlum Noble is worth more than never having had it (even if the honor is removed somehow).
Quote
If a Tenneshi noble was informed that he is no longer a Tenneshi, and no longer entitled to wear the trappings or bear the name of nobility...you'd think he'd be shunned by every other Tenneshi in the city - and by most of the other nobles, at least in public. Wouldn't it be the same for a Hlum?
You'd never hear about this because the Tenneshi would merely disappear.
Quote from: musashi on December 08, 2008, 07:23:32 AM
But wait so ... you continue to address a Templar from a noble house by including their former house name, but you would not include the merchant house name if said Templar came from a merchant house?
Templars from merchant house families are properly addressed by including their surname, just like templars from noble house families. See red-robe templar "Aquila Nenyuk" on the history timeline.
However, in Tuluk, templars only and always come from noble houses, not merchant houses.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on December 08, 2008, 11:48:32 AM
However, in Tuluk, templars only and always come from noble houses, not merchant houses.
Or they're bred like racehorses.
Scary, scary racehorses.
Hlum do not lose their noble title, the only Chosen who are likely to become 'Un-Chosen' are consorts, who are slightly different than the Hlum given their nobility as Grey Hunt winners. Consorts are Chosen for the life of their noble, Grey Hunt winning, partner. In effect the noble has Chosen them and Muk Utep has agreed.
Once the noble dies the Consort is allowed to return to their previous life without attached stigma, they would be thought of as a loyal Tuluki citizen though in no way would they be regarded as nobility any longer.
Ah, that definitely clears up some confusion Adhira, thank you!
Quote from: Adhira on December 08, 2008, 01:13:45 PM
Once the noble dies the Consort is allowed to return to their previous life without attached stigma, they would be thought of as a loyal Tuluki citizen though in no way would they be regarded as nobility any longer.
This begs the question: does the Consort have to be chosen at the time when the Hlum title is won? Other Chosen would never consider it possible to marry a commoner, but I wonder if the Hlum Chosen can forgo this technicality for the proper partner. That he can also try to move into a Surif family seems to be a possibility according to this thread.
I would imagine that it would be possible (and may be a smart move) for a Hlum to marry a Surif. And even though they may be the red-headed step-children of the Tuluki nobility, in some instances, a Surif may actually want to marry a Hlum. All of that would likely depend on the political landscape of Tuluk at the time.
I always imagined it to be like Dune: one could imagine Duke Leto to be like a Hlum (or even a Surif noble), skipping over hitching up with his One True Love in order to hold out for a political arrangement that could eventually lead him to the Throne. Eventually, things don't work out for him: one of his best friends stabs him in the back, yanks out his teeth, and destroys his House; he blows his one last chance to kill his archenemy before he dies, who turns around and kills the aformentioned former best friend, and enslaves another; and, finally, he regrets his decision to never have hitched his commoner girlfriend - a very Armageddon end.
I would note that Hlum titles make Partisanship much more interesting. I would imagine that a if you're a Surif, a Hlum in your pocket is better than a Hlum in the pocket of your rivals. Thus, if a Grey Hunt rolls around, you may want to support your Partisans over someone else's Partisans (unless you have some sort of 'arrangement'). Worse: someone who isn't a Partisan of any kind at all! I would imagine, even, that the Templarate may note a spike in the number of assassination licences for Partisans (and even non-partisans) coincidentally peaking around the time of Grey Hunts. I always imagined Grey Hunt periods to be intrigue-filled times, with entrants mysteriously having spates of "accidents" and "illnessess" and occasionally falling down "sets of stairs" onto "an open crate of poisoned knives".
Such is the price of Nobility.
Quote from: musashi on December 08, 2008, 12:59:28 AM
I likewise, think that Hlum are probably apt to marry into a Surif House for political reasons.
You may be putting too much southern sauce on your northern ideas, bardbard#4 :)
I guess really the point I'm trying to make, and I think Tlaloc reaffirmed this, is that ALL Tuluki marriages have a pragmatic/political reason behind them. It would be extremely rare for a low-ranking noble to pick who they get to marry, be it a Hlum or Surif they have their eye on. Having played a noble who tried to do this, I can attest to the fact that I hit a fairly immovable road block from above.
Quote from: bardbard#4 on December 08, 2008, 09:39:27 PM
Quote from: musashi on December 08, 2008, 12:59:28 AM
I likewise, think that Hlum are probably apt to marry into a Surif House for political reasons.
You may be putting too much southern sauce on your northern ideas, bardbard#4 :)
I guess really the point I'm trying to make, and I think Tlaloc reaffirmed this, is that ALL Tuluki marriages have a pragmatic/political reason behind them. It would be extremely rare for a low-ranking noble to pick who they get to marry, be it a Hlum or Surif they have their eye on. Having played a noble who tried to do this, I can attest to the fact that I hit a fairly immovable road block from above.
HAHAHA! So, not only can Tuluki nobles not have sex, but they can't even choose who they MARRY?! ROFL!!! HAHAHAHA! Poor nobles... ~snickers~
Quote from: tortall on December 08, 2008, 10:09:14 PM
Quote from: bardbard#4 on December 08, 2008, 09:39:27 PM
Quote from: musashi on December 08, 2008, 12:59:28 AM
I likewise, think that Hlum are probably apt to marry into a Surif House for political reasons.
You may be putting too much southern sauce on your northern ideas, bardbard#4 :)
I guess really the point I'm trying to make, and I think Tlaloc reaffirmed this, is that ALL Tuluki marriages have a pragmatic/political reason behind them. It would be extremely rare for a low-ranking noble to pick who they get to marry, be it a Hlum or Surif they have their eye on. Having played a noble who tried to do this, I can attest to the fact that I hit a fairly immovable road block from above.
HAHAHA! So, not only can Tuluki nobles not have sex, but they can't even choose who they MARRY?! ROFL!!! HAHAHAHA! Poor nobles... ~snickers~
Uh...ya. Pretty much.
I don't think any nobles, or even very many people out of merchant houses, get to choose who they marry. Marriage in Arm is more like a contract designed to bear children and bring a certain amount of prestige to each family. No one else gets married, except in exceedingly rare and unusual circumstances.
So... yeah.
I would be amused at the number of merchants/nobles who have probably snuck in Sekret Lovers' babies into their houses without the house knowing. I mean, what are they going to do? Paternity test the little bastard? Highly unlikely.
Quote from: Shiroi Tsuki on December 10, 2008, 08:10:24 AM
I would be amused at the number of merchants/nobles who have probably snuck in Sekret Lovers' babies into their houses with the house knowing, because who cares? They make good, trustworthy servants.
That too, what.
I would see hlum's as very prestigious and looked up to by commoners, they did some great accomplishment besides just being born to be a noble. A surif house might want some of that prestige to rub off on them and may work with that hlum or even marry them into the family. Another possibility is for a noble who somehow falls in love with some lowly commoner, aiding them in winning the title and then getting that marriage.
Amish Overlord 8)
Quote from: KIA on December 08, 2008, 06:59:40 PMThis begs the question: does the Consort have to be chosen at the time when the Hlum title is won? Other Chosen would never consider it possible to marry a commoner, but I wonder if the Hlum Chosen can forgo this technicality for the proper partner. That he can also try to move into a Surif family seems to be a possibility according to this thread.
The Consort does have to be chosen at the time when the Hlum is won. It's intended to allow for the Hlum to bring a pre-existing lover up with him so he isn't driven crazy(er) by caste restrictions. It's very different from a southern noble choosing a concubine(s) in that the consort must have a prior relationship and attachment, not just be a pretty face picked from a lineup.