I will keep this opening post concise and as others respond to it, lay out more detailed reasoning.
I think that Armageddon is suffering from the surplus of characters that know their way around by heart and how just about anyone these days can zip up and down the north road without a care in the world. I find it sad that there are a great many shaded nooks, natural rest points and other cool rooms that never get utilized. Or how a desert elf can run across the known world and rarely get tired except in certain areas.
What I propose, is the exact doubling of all movement costs. This would have the effect of not only making the Known World seem better and more dangerous, but would make it so people actually need to stop rest at some points on their journey and plan more carefully.
You were trying to kill someone today and you failed, didn't you?
*grin*
Nah, I'm playing. I have to say, this idea does not sit badly with me. I can agree with it.
I don't, personally, like it. The regeneration time for stamina for nonrangers sucks badly enough already. I think that making the game world more difficult to get around in then it already is kind of sucks. I'm sorry that some people have been playing so long they have the map memorized. I don't see how making the game less appealing to new players by doubling the stamina drain is going to help.
sounds great. While we are at it, let's also remove all magickers and leave only sorcs.
<--- is serious.
Wouldn't it be easier to decrease the stamina on mounts so they -have- to rest, for example, one time on the road between City of your Pick and Luir's. I mean it takes longer to get to the Ghatti from the Sanct than it does from Tuluk to Luir's if you're just cruising along with no regard for the world.
I shudder to think what movement cost through mud/sludge/shit would be at 2x.
As for elves, psht. No comment.
Quote from: Furious George on November 25, 2008, 07:36:23 PM
Wouldn't it be easier to decrease the stamina on mounts so they -have- to rest, for example, one time on the road between City of your Pick and Luir's. I mean it takes longer to get to the Ghatti from the Sanct than it does from Tuluk to Luir's if you're just cruising along with no regard for the world.
I shudder to think what movement cost through mud/sludge/shit would be at 2x.
As for elves, psht. No comment.
This is true, and I could totally get behind the idea of decreased stamina on mounts.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on November 25, 2008, 07:26:03 PM
I don't, personally, like it. The regeneration time for stamina for nonrangers sucks badly enough already. I think that making the game world more difficult to get around in then it already is kind of sucks. I'm sorry that some people have been playing so long they have the map memorized. I don't see how making the game less appealing to new players by doubling the stamina drain is going to help.
1) Some guilds have better regeneration than others already. Strangely, those meant to travel outside might even get bonuses in this. You'll have to test it for yourself. Those that aren't meant to be roaming the wastes daily...do not. Mounts regen fairly fast as well.
2) It is already DEATH for new players to go outside without being in a party. If anything, this will help them live longer by staying closer to the walls and being forced to learn safe areas...not zip out of the gate like they were riding their own personal Millenium Falcon.
3) It would give some clans more to do. Whether their clan suffices by raiding, or if their clan suffices by protecting others from raiding. Right now, the game world is at a state where the North Road is as safe as a baby quirri.
Overall however, it would heighten the gritty realism, but not to a game crippling sense. Even if movement costs were doubled, you could still get to where you can now before you're too far out to return. This would just mean you actually have to briefly rest.
And hell...Frankly...I think some types of characters and newer players SHOULD have a teensy bit more difficulty traversing the wastes then riding from Tuluk to Allanak in a morning with their mount only very tired.
Then increase it in the Wastes. I'm not going to agree. Sorry. Like I said, I think it's already hard enough. And as for getting people hired, let them get hired by people that aren't supposed to be dirt poor. Not everyone has the sid too. And, without going out after the rescources to get the sid, they wouldn't need to anyhow. I respectfully withdraw from the discussion. I know I won't be moved in my opinion, so I'm not going to argue it with someone else who obviously feels the same. You made your points, I made mine.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on November 25, 2008, 07:59:12 PM
Then increase it in the Wastes. I'm not going to agree. Sorry. Like I said, I think it's already hard enough. And as for getting people hired, let them get hired by people that aren't supposed to be dirt poor. Not everyone has the sid too. And, without going out after the rescources to get the sid, they wouldn't need to anyhow. I respectfully withdraw from the discussion. I know I won't be moved in my opinion, so I'm not going to argue it with someone else who obviously feels the same. You made your points, I made mine.
I'm not entirely inconsolable. Your willingness to increase it in the wastes (which is fine, since there is no stamina cost to movement at all inside the city...hence doubling it meaning nothing) and your support of mounts having less stamina is plenty close enough to my position to be perfectly content. Indeed, I'm not entirely sure where we disagree except in implementation.
Meh. I'd rather not have to spend more time in the game just sitting around and rp'ing being tired, etc. I'd much rather just have more coded hazards in the wilds, more dangerous npcs near travelled areas, (like it used to be) and other additions.
Every step in the wastes should trigger a random encounter roll.
1-99 = Nothing happens
100 = Something happens, proceed to random encounter chart
Random encounter chart:
1-10: Gith
11-20: NPC raiders!
21-30: Chubacabra!
31-50: Flying Bahamets
51-60: A pech grass
61-70: Sarlac
71-80: Giant Erdlus
81-100: Hungry Hungry Tribals
The more people you have in the room OR the more sneakily you're moving OR the more d-elfy you are, the rarer the encounter chance.
Ok, so this isn't a serious suggestion entirely, but still ...
Also, it would have never occurred to me (being a bit of a new in regards to some aspects of the game) that it would be possible to zip from Tuluk to Nak. Making the trip long and dangerous sounds perfectly reasonable to me because it's what I already thought it was.
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 25, 2008, 08:01:47 PM
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on November 25, 2008, 07:59:12 PM
Then increase it in the Wastes. I'm not going to agree. Sorry. Like I said, I think it's already hard enough. And as for getting people hired, let them get hired by people that aren't supposed to be dirt poor. Not everyone has the sid too. And, without going out after the rescources to get the sid, they wouldn't need to anyhow. I respectfully withdraw from the discussion. I know I won't be moved in my opinion, so I'm not going to argue it with someone else who obviously feels the same. You made your points, I made mine.
I'm not entirely inconsolable. Your willingness to increase it in the wastes (which is fine, since there is no stamina cost to movement at all inside the city...hence doubling it meaning nothing) and your support of mounts having less stamina is plenty close enough to my position to be perfectly content. Indeed, I'm not entirely sure where we disagree except in implementation.
See, it's just in places like the plains and the forests, I have to disagree. I can completely understand it in areas like the Salt Flats, and the canyon of the wastes, and so forth. I still favor giving mounts less stamina. I've made it across the known world on an erdlu once without having to rest it once. I wouldn't do it again, but that was my first time travelling, and I just wanted to see if it could be done. I could understand it on, maybe, a really hardy inix, but on an erdlu, that's ridiculous.
Quote from: jhunter on November 25, 2008, 08:07:57 PM
Meh. I'd rather not have to spend more time in the game just sitting around and rp'ing being tired, etc. I'd much rather just have more coded hazards in the wilds, more dangerous npcs near travelled areas, (like it used to be) and other additions.
Now this I could get behind. I have yet to be accosted on the North Road itself. I'm not in favor of always having trouble, but I agree that, overall, travelling the north road is too safe. I also like the idea of Thunkkin's suggestion. Even if the encounters might need fine-tuning and locallizing.
I often tell my friends, in an almost non-joking way that, if you can get past critter X near Tuluk, then you're pretty much safe all the way down to Allanak.
Most mounts will take you easily from Tuluk to Allanak in one trip, anyway.
Then the Byn wonders why nobody needs them anymore.
I'm not all about increasing stamina drain so much as I am about increasing the amount of obstacles one encounters when traveling.
The world is so small and easy to travel through. I'd like to see more gith, raptors, and all the nasty critters that used to eat everyone back in the day. Respawn time on NPC's is crazy slow right now. I'd like them to be quicker on the aggro things. I want to see more aggro things. I know it might take a way a little realism to have 15 gith spawn along the sides of the North Road in random locations every ten minutes, but I would have a lot more fun traveling if that were the case.
Oh, and we'd need to run a script in the area before the bad guys repopulated otherwise there would be 100 obsidian longswords, raptor bladders, and whatever else scattered all over the place between reboots.
Yeah, travel was alot more dangerous and alot more fun when there were more dangerous things near the main travel routes.
Quote from: jhunter on November 25, 2008, 09:17:25 PM
Yeah, travel was alot more dangerous and alot more fun when there were more dangerous things near the main travel routes.
It would probably drop the number active magickers too. Even a day one krathi wouldn't last long against a gith attack. But if dangerous critters spawn more often then all of the less dangerous critters should spawn more often too.
Impractical from a playability standpoint unless everyone gets outdoor quit.
I think reducing mount stamina would be the best change if any.
Otherwise STOP along the way rather you need to codely or not.
Make it take more than an IG hour to get all the way across the world yourself, instead if spam riding just because the code doesn't say you can't.
That way, if RL gets in the way you CAN still spam ride to the city if you have to.
It seems like it's either full invisible and powerful spiders all over the place and group of giths with poisoned spears or.. One carru in the middle of nowhere and nothing else.
I think a few giths here and there would be fine, then you add some random dangerous critters as well, as opposed to the same carru spawning in the same spot for nearly five years now.
I also agree that you absolutely would need to at least make a stop mid-way, no matter what you travel in, or on.
Quote from: Fnord on November 25, 2008, 09:31:31 PM
Impractical from a playability standpoint unless everyone gets outdoor quit.
there's plenty of easily accessible, one or two room off the road, areas to outdoor quit for any guild.
Quote from: Malken on November 25, 2008, 09:39:05 PM
I think a few giths here and there would be fine, then you add some random dangerous critters as well, as opposed to the same carru spawning in the same spot for nearly five years now.
I also agree that you absolutely would need to at least make a stop mid-way, no matter what you travel in, or on.
The carru is so sad, it is probably the worst IC joke ever.
Is it possible to make a room generate random NPCs from a list instead of the same one over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again?
Quote from: FantasyWriter on November 25, 2008, 09:36:43 PM
Make it take more than an IG hour to get all the way across the world yourself, instead if spam riding just because the code doesn't say you can't.
That way, if RL gets in the way you CAN still spam ride to the city if you have to.
For the moment, I think this is the best thing people can do. If we all make an RP event out of travelling rather than spam walking all the way from safe point A to safe point B the world will start to seem a little more dangerous, and we'll open ourselves up to the most important form of danger in the wastes: Other PC's. 8)
I'm in favor of the less stamina for mounts idea with a little condition attached. I've never played a delf, so I don't know personally, but other people seem to think they get to travel way too easily as it stands so, if mounts were nerfed, I'd hope staff would nerf delf running as well to keep them comparable to the mounts, instead of just widening that gap.
But more so than nerfing anyone's stamina ... I'd like to see some NPC raiders (be they humans, delves, gith, whatever) hanging around the main roads waiting for easy prey.
I would not like to see random NPC raiders hanging around the middle of vast expanses of wilderness though. I feel like they should stick to the roads since that's the most logical place to find people to raid. If your PC knows a way to get from city A to city B without going near the main roads, they should be able to do it and avoid the hazards (or at least swap the hazards of the road for hazards of the wilds) and also ... if your PC is not using the main roads, I think that you'll have to rest a few times before getting where you're going, since the movement drain off-road is more substancial.
Hell, why don't we just make another PC raider group, make it like a real clan. So long as they don't go around insta-ganking everyone, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
Better yet. Make gith playable as secondary characters. Who wouldn't want a disposable character to dash against the rocks during downtime?
A good Byn Sgt. can make a "quick ride" into an adventure.
Also, you can also wish up for a little "fun" along the way.
I have had some great staff interaction on trips before that were awesome.
(the USUALLY don't kill PCs, thankfully. But don't bet your life on it. ;))
Agreed.
Make me OOCly afraid to leave the gates, so I have an easier time plugging that into my character.
Personally, I treat travel as travel, not just getting from Point A to Point B. I take my time, moving 2-3 rooms at a time, pausing 10-20 seconds, tossing out a few emotes, then moving on.
I've made the trip from Allanak to Tuluk hundreds of times (both routes), and I've only encountered baddies a handful of times.
Fuck with me. Seriously. I play this game for death, gore, and violence. Give me a gruesome torture scene at the hands of a sadistic, starving gith in the middle of the Red.
I will love you for it.
Would you be ok with say ... a carru knocking you out ... then getting busy with your too stunned to move body?
Quote from: musashi on November 25, 2008, 10:13:35 PM
Would you be ok with say ... a carru knocking you out ... then getting busy with your too stunned to move body?
As long as he OOC'd for my consent first, I am cool with it.
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 25, 2008, 09:42:21 PM
Quote from: Fnord on November 25, 2008, 09:31:31 PM
Impractical from a playability standpoint unless everyone gets outdoor quit.
there's plenty of easily accessible, one or two room off the road, areas to outdoor quit for any guild.
Incorrect.
Let's say you're leaving Allanak, and you are on the North Road, heading North, and you come to the first bend.
Where is the quit safe room? How many rooms away? 5?
Quote from: manonfire on November 25, 2008, 10:02:41 PM
Agreed.
Make me OOCly afraid to leave the gates, so I have an easier time plugging that into my character.
Personally, I treat travel as travel, not just getting from Point A to Point B. I take my time, moving 2-3 rooms at a time, pausing 10-20 seconds, tossing out a few emotes, then moving on.
I've made the trip from Allanak to Tuluk hundreds of times (both routes), and I've only encountered baddies a handful of times.
Fuck with me. Seriously. I play this game for death, gore, and violence. Give me a gruesome torture scene at the hands of a sadistic, starving gith in the middle of the Red.
I will love you for it.
This.
Increasing the movement costs has the unfortunate side-effect of making the game more of a chore, and while I'm usually in favor of more realism, for someone like me with increasingly little time to play, making things take longer would be a real pain. Decreasing mount stamina, however, would be all right. I'm not sure why that bothers me less, but it does. I enjoy the thought of Luir's Outpost being more and more often used as a rest stop for travelers between North and South, and this would help with that.
I remember knowing that the wilderness was dangerous both OOCly and ICly back when I first started playing, and I'd love to see a return to this. Really, really love. My main complaint with travel between Tuluk and Allanak isn't that it doesn't take long enough, but that it, frankly, isn't very dangerous at all. It really, really should be--I mean, a road's a road, not a set of impenetrable, danger-repellent walls.
Quote from: mansa on November 25, 2008, 10:26:26 PM
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 25, 2008, 09:42:21 PM
Quote from: Fnord on November 25, 2008, 09:31:31 PM
Impractical from a playability standpoint unless everyone gets outdoor quit.
there's plenty of easily accessible, one or two room off the road, areas to outdoor quit for any guild.
Incorrect.
Let's say you're leaving Allanak, and you are on the North Road, heading North, and you come to the first bend.
Where is the quit safe room? How many rooms away? 5?
It's a bit rougher south of Luir's, agreed.
But that's why the Byn get that nice outpost out there. Which is supposed to be helping them do stuff like this. With movement and danger as it is, that outpost is worthless. Salarr used to have a couple outposts too.
Anything that would allow more realism and interaction in the form of PC bandits posting up on roads, I'm all for. With spam-walking, that makes it difficult to catch people en route, which is when lots of crimes like muggings and caravan robberies occur.
I don't necessarily think that this specific idea is the end-all, be-all of systems to facilitate this, but I do believe that it needs some attention. People being ABLE to be robbed more would revitalize the mercenary industry, and make for an overall more dangerous and realistic atmosphere.
Oh, and add s'more mean shit close to the roads. Raiders, gith, etc.
- THIS POST IS NINJA APPROVED
I am in full support of doubling movement costs.
"But my character's too poor to hire a guide to get from point A to point B."
I'm sorry.
Then don't travel.
I have no sympathy for this excuse, off-peak player or not. The reason you can't find other off-peakers to play with is probably because they're always bouncing from city to city looking for eachother.
This will make travel more dangerous, as you have to wait around and rest, which leaves you open to wildlife attacks and raiders.
The Byn don't wonder why nobody hires, they know exactly why, and it's because desert travel is entirely too safe.
Someone said that leaving the gates as a new player = death.
This is just not so.
This idea won't kill playability. Like was said, if it's too much of a hassle to travel from city to city, then just don't travel. The people in the game world who REALLY need to travel already have the means to do so, all of you commoners can just eat it.
There are plenty of places between travel locations that are relatively safe to rest at, and they're never used because they're not needed.
Please, PLEASE implement this idea.
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on November 25, 2008, 11:14:11 PM
I remember knowing that the wilderness was dangerous both OOCly and ICly back when I first started playing, and I'd love to see a return to this. Really, really love. My main complaint with travel between Tuluk and Allanak isn't that it doesn't take long enough, but that it, frankly, isn't very dangerous at all.
This is so true.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 25, 2008, 11:35:35 PM
...Then don't travel....
Your post makes me think that you don't want people, who have only an hour a day, to play the game.
It seems like you would rather they not log in and join our community.
I think that is the wrong idea to have.
I also would like to point out, that no matter how good the intention...asking the good roleplayers to deliberately slow themselves down to make themselves bait for greater dangers from monsters or raiders is a bit unfair...When the vast majority of the playerbase (like those who don't read threads like this), whether traveler or raider, won't be slowing down at all.
Hell. I've been attacked by raiders many times. I've openly and deliberately invited attacks. And you know what happens when they start to lose? They haul ass.
So the notion of telling people to handicap themselves against code, is ridiculous. And it takes any meaning from some modes of movement being quicker than others (like erdlu over a sunlon or a desert elf running which seems to be faster than the fastest mount).
If people actually took this advice, all it means is that the 'good' roleplayers (if one defines good roleplaying by handicapping themselves in spite of the code while directly contending with those who do not) will be killed more than bad ones.
There needs to be a coded solution...we're just fortunate that the solution is so easy and obvious. And heck, a double of the movement code would make almost perfect sense with the current position of Luirs, and various outposts and rest stops. As if they were envisioned with it in mind.
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 25, 2008, 11:46:46 PM
...a double of the movement code would make almost perfect sense with the current position of Luirs, and various outposts and rest stops...
This is a great point.
I think it would be more productive to add more environment to the game, than to add double movement points. That's my stance on it.
Quote from: mansa on November 25, 2008, 11:45:30 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 25, 2008, 11:35:35 PM
...Then don't travel....
Your post makes me think that you don't want people, who have only an hour a day, to play the game.
It seems like you would rather they not log in and join our community.
I think that is the wrong idea to have.
Not at all.
I want travel to be a hassle for everyone, and for everyone to actually have plan out their trips and take precautions.
I want travel to be harsh.
I want travel to be dangerous.
I want people to fear the open wastes.
Traveling from city-to-city is entirely common for poor commoners.
Also. I think more dangerous roads would encourage greater RP. As people would need to cooperate more. Right now...there is a far greater portion of the playerbase than even there was two years ago, that finds clans completely extraneous to their needs.
It's very rare for example, that anyone really needs the Byn. It's just busy work tossed their way more often. It used to be, operations like the Byn served a real purpose.
And heck..deaths might even go down.
People would be forced to be more cautious, stay closer to home, and when they go far away, not go alone. That would prevent alot of people from getting themselves offed. The situation right now is so fluid, that people get lost in the cracks. Making the roads more dangerous will compact, tighten and more integrate the playerbase.
Quote from: mansa on November 25, 2008, 11:45:30 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 25, 2008, 11:35:35 PM
...Then don't travel....
Your post makes me think that you don't want people, who have only an hour a day, to play the game.
It seems like you would rather they not log in and join our community.
I think that is the wrong idea to have.
There's nothing wrong with spending a day in Luirs then, is there? If you only have an hour to play and need to go from one end of the known world to the other...?
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 25, 2008, 11:57:36 PM
There's nothing wrong with spending a day in Luirs then, is there? If you only have an hour to play and need to go from one end of the known world to the other...?
There's nothing wrong with spending a day there.
There's something wrong with resting up every 10 minutes, because you ran out of movement points.
Quote from: mansa on November 26, 2008, 12:00:22 AM
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 25, 2008, 11:57:36 PM
There's nothing wrong with spending a day in Luirs then, is there? If you only have an hour to play and need to go from one end of the known world to the other...?
There's nothing wrong with spending a day there.
There's something wrong with resting up every 10 minutes, because you ran out of movement points.
You mean, having to rest every ten minutes in the five minutes it takes to get from either of the city-states to Luir's?
Quote from: mansa on November 25, 2008, 11:49:07 PM
I think it would be more productive to add more environment to the game, than to add double movement points. That's my stance on it.
YES! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD ADD MORE NPCS!!
I walked around outside Tuluk for a day and saw TWO critters. Neither were bad or difficult. WTF happened? Are people over hunting again?
I must admit, being gone for so long I am still stuck in the days of massive amounts of gith along the north road. My PC doesn't travel down that way. Scary stuff's there!
Quote from: mansa on November 26, 2008, 12:00:22 AM
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 25, 2008, 11:57:36 PM
There's nothing wrong with spending a day in Luirs then, is there? If you only have an hour to play and need to go from one end of the known world to the other...?
There's nothing wrong with spending a day there.
There's something wrong with resting up every 10 minutes, because you ran out of movement points.
If movement costs were doubled, the only mount that would have trouble reaching Luirs from either Tuluk or Allanak, would be an erdlu or a non ranger on foot. And they still might be able to do it with far less resting than you think. Once at Luirs, if they were intent on getting up as fast as they could, they could go insta-rent their mount in the stable. So I don't think you need to fear on that account.
There would be a beneficial contraction and tightening up...But it wouldn't be nearly so serious as you seem to think. And since you've played a long time, I'm sure if you really thought about it, and what it'd be like if you were moving half the distance you are now (and how many times you've gotten to Luirs from Nak with your inix or beetle only tired)...you'll see it's not near so great a change.
It's actually very minor, and should be accompanied, in time, with all the other ideas. Like more NPC raiders and environmental hazards.
EDIT: This is definitely more than about mounts tho and definitely needs to apply d-elves too.
Quote from: mansa on November 26, 2008, 12:00:22 AM
There's something wrong with resting up every 10 minutes, because you ran out of movement points.
Ten minutes? Ha! Try two and forty seconds. Oh... you meant riding.
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 26, 2008, 12:08:03 AM
If movement costs were doubled, the only mount that would have trouble reaching Luirs from either Tuluk or Allanak, would be an erdlu or a non ranger on foot. And they still might be able to do it with far less resting than you think. Once at Luirs, if they were intent on getting up as fast as they could, they could go insta-rent their mount in the stable. So I don't think you need to fear on that account.
Bolded for Importance.
That is code abuse. Immortals have said to not do so. Upon threat of character deletion. For everybody reading this thread. Do not do.
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 26, 2008, 12:08:03 AMThere would be a beneficial contraction and tightening up...But it wouldn't be nearly so serious as you seem to think. And since you've played a long time, I'm sure if you really thought about it, and what it'd be like if you were moving half the distance you are now (and how many times you've gotten to Luirs from Nak with your inix or beetle only tired)...you'll see it's not near so great a change.
It's actually very minor, and should be accompanied, in time, with all the other ideas. Like more NPC raiders and environmental hazards.
EDIT: This is definitely more than about mounts tho and definitely needs to apply d-elves too.
You could go about it another way:
Cut down on the max movement of certain mounts.
Quote from: mansa on November 26, 2008, 12:14:24 AM
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 26, 2008, 12:08:03 AM
If movement costs were doubled, the only mount that would have trouble reaching Luirs from either Tuluk or Allanak, would be an erdlu or a non ranger on foot. And they still might be able to do it with far less resting than you think. Once at Luirs, if they were intent on getting up as fast as they could, they could go insta-rent their mount in the stable. So I don't think you need to fear on that account.
Bolded for Importance.
That is code abuse. Immortals have said to not do so. Upon threat of character deletion. For everybody reading this thread. Do not do.
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 26, 2008, 12:08:03 AMThere would be a beneficial contraction and tightening up...But it wouldn't be nearly so serious as you seem to think. And since you've played a long time, I'm sure if you really thought about it, and what it'd be like if you were moving half the distance you are now (and how many times you've gotten to Luirs from Nak with your inix or beetle only tired)...you'll see it's not near so great a change.
It's actually very minor, and should be accompanied, in time, with all the other ideas. Like more NPC raiders and environmental hazards.
EDIT: This is definitely more than about mounts tho and definitely needs to apply d-elves too.
You could go about it another way:
Cut down on the max movement of certain mounts.
Yes, which was why I edited my post to note that this is
FAR more than a mount problem. It heavily applies, (perhaps even greater) to desert elves. Limiting the max movement of mounts without touching delves would make certain ramifications even worse.
I still think the easiest thing to do is to introduce a few more NPCs into the realm. Have a different type of "creature", instead of Gith. How about, let's say, some lolcats or some different insectoid, like a cendi.
Let's kill them in Armageddon 1.0, and play as them in Armageddon 2.0
====
An idea brought up by Psionic Fungus on the AIM Blast chat is that you increase the movement delay when you are "outside". I definitely do not think that increasing the movement penalty will solve anything, except to keep players who do not have enough time on their hands.
Did someone else bring that up?
If you want the roads to be more dangerous, introduce more danger to the roads.
The power is yours, young padawan.
Quote from: mansa on November 26, 2008, 12:20:46 AM
An idea brought up by Psionic Fungus on the AIM Blast chat is that you increase the movement delay when you are "outside". I definitely do not think that increasing the movement penalty will solve anything, except to keep players who do not have enough time on their hands.
Did someone else bring that up?
No. But it's another good idea.
Quote from: Malken on November 25, 2008, 09:39:05 PM
I also agree that you absolutely would need to at least make a stop mid-way, no matter what you travel in, or on.
;)
I do this anyway for the sake of RP and haven't really seen many others not stop either.
Not to derail here, but AIM blast chat? There like a channel for Arm players or something?
I am with Mansa. Make mounts with high move more expensive. MUCH more expensive. Add NPC's. Maybe not gith (because of copywrite stuff) but something else.
Gone are the days of the 3gith raiding parts and their gnarled spears that killed so many PC's. I kind of want those back. I want tembo crawling out of the Grey Forst -all the time-. I want gortok infestations. I want to see raptor run amuck.
I don't want to see double move points. Now I'll just see nothing but gritty, blowing sand for twice as long be cause really there's not much else out there.
Quote from: Sephiroto on November 26, 2008, 03:35:40 AM
I don't want to see double move points. Now I'll just see nothing but gritty, blowing sand for twice as long be cause really there's not much else out there.
[broken record]As soon as you can no longer see three rooms out in the desert, get somewhere safe.[/broken record]
"But with having to spend double move points per move, I won't be able to get back in time!"
Don't venture so far away from safe places.
Yes, Qzz. We know you have no sympathy for anyone. We know you're so hardcore. We get it. I'm sitting here being impressed by you.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 26, 2008, 03:39:55 AM
Quote from: Sephiroto on November 26, 2008, 03:35:40 AM
I don't want to see double move points. Now I'll just see nothing but gritty, blowing sand for twice as long be cause really there's not much else out there.
[broken record]As soon as you can no longer see three rooms out in the desert, get somewhere safe.[/broken record]
"But with having to spend double move points per move, I won't be able to get back in time!"
Don't venture so far away from safe places.
I'm not talking about being stuck in a sandstorm. I'm talking about the Zalanthan wilderness being so freaking boring lately that all I see are sparsely blowing sands and .1% danger instead of 1000% danger.
Quote from: Fathi on November 26, 2008, 03:58:32 AM
Yes, Qzz. We know you have no sympathy for anyone. We know you're so hardcore. We get it. I'm sitting here being impressed by you.
I just get tired of people getting surprised when they die in the desert, or how hard it is to travel in the desert when a lot of their troubles could be easily avoided. It has nothing do to with being hardcore or not having sympathy, or trying to impress you.... Sorry. :-*
Quote from: Sephiroto on November 26, 2008, 04:02:15 AM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 26, 2008, 03:39:55 AM
Quote from: Sephiroto on November 26, 2008, 03:35:40 AM
I don't want to see double move points. Now I'll just see nothing but gritty, blowing sand for twice as long be cause really there's not much else out there.
[broken record]As soon as you can no longer see three rooms out in the desert, get somewhere safe.[/broken record]
"But with having to spend double move points per move, I won't be able to get back in time!"
Don't venture so far away from safe places.
I'm not talking about being stuck in a sandstorm. I'm talking about the Zalanthan wilderness being so freaking boring lately that all I see are sparsely blowing sands and .1% danger instead of 1000% danger.
Oh.... Yeah. Agreed then.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 26, 2008, 04:05:39 AM
I just get tired of people getting surprised when they die in the desert, or how hard it is to travel in the desert when a lot of their troubles could be easily avoided. It has nothing do to with being hardcore or not having sympathy, or trying to impress you.... Sorry. :-*
...could be easily avoided by making it -harder- to travel in the desert? You acknowledge that it -is- hard to travel in the desert. You acknowledge that other people know this - whether they already knew because they've been playing Arm long enough to find out, or they found out just yesterday, is irrelevent. They know. It's dangerous out there. So why again are you so emphatic about making it harder?
All it will do, is punish people who play characters that LIVE outside the cities...and players who play characters who are clanned in houses as employees required to WORK outside the cities, and bring more people back INTO the cities to sit on stools in bars, wishing their lives away and being bored to tears because they don't have a group of people big enough to go with them.
Yeah that sounds like a fun game. Put me first in line.
The reason people are so annoyed with the current way things are, is because those people have learned their way around it all. They've learned about "that carru" that a LOT of people have never experienced. They have been told over AIM, or in IRC chat, or in other ways, about this or that death-trap hole you can fall into, so they know to look for a hole when they're in "that" part of the game. And they don't have to look for any holes in "that other" part of the game, because their best Arm pal who introduced them was so kind to tell them there was no hole there.
So all the "secret surprises" and spawn points of critters and death traps and dangers and locations of hiding gith have been exposed to lots and lots of people, mostly people who know how to avoid them, or are instructed how to avoid them.
My answer to those people: sucks to be you. Really. If Armageddon is so boring to you, go play somewhere else. I'm not bored at all. When I ride down "that" corridor of non-city road, my heart thumps like crazy because I know that at any moment, a wayward "some kind of critter" might pop around the corner. I know that the moment I step foot into the grasslands, I might get accosted by a wandering bahamet who chased a duskhorn too close to the gate. I know that my next step away from Allanak could be the step that convinces Mister Mekillot that there's a tasty treat just around the corner.
Just because YOU believe, or were informed, or know, that these critters are few and far between, doesn't mean I know it. And if I don't know it, then all you're doing by "harshening" this game world, is giving YOU some new surprises to learn about and exploit, while making it more difficult for me to even -want- to play.
Here's an idea to make things harsher for you all: turn off your AIM, and get out of IRC chat, and destroy that map that everyone insists doesn't exist.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 26, 2008, 06:52:03 AM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 26, 2008, 04:05:39 AM
I just get tired of people getting surprised when they die in the desert, or how hard it is to travel in the desert when a lot of their troubles could be easily avoided. It has nothing do to with being hardcore or not having sympathy, or trying to impress you.... Sorry. :-*
...could be easily avoided by making it -harder- to travel in the desert? You acknowledge that it -is- hard to travel in the desert. You acknowledge that other people know this - whether they already knew because they've been playing Arm long enough to find out, or they found out just yesterday, is irrelevent. They know. It's dangerous out there. So why again are you so emphatic about making it harder?
That's not exactly the point I was trying to get across.
The desert is dangerous sure....
sometimes.
It's not uniformly dangerous all around. People can go back and forth from Tuluk to Allanak with no problems for a good long time, and a lot of people do this on a regular basis.
I want it to be dangerous -all the time-.
Not just every now and then.
I don't want it harshened so I can feel a little bit of a thrill when getting from point A to point B. I want it harshened so the game will actually be harsh, just like it's touted to be.
Nobody hires the Byn anymore.
Why?
Travel is too easy.
Nobody ever really hires desert guides anymore.
Why?
Desert's too safe.
Sure, travel can be hard and dangerous. But not as often as it should be.
I've never had the feeling of, "Phew, I'm so lucky to have gotten from Red Storm to Tuluk -
on foot- with no troubles whatsoever."
Ever.
Since I started the game.
I always hear people talking about how harsh the game used to be, and I'd like to experience that, and I'm sure a lot of other people would too.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 26, 2008, 08:07:43 AM
Nobody hires the Byn anymore.
Why?
Travel is too easy.
Nobody ever really hires desert guides anymore.
Why?
Desert's too safe.
I try to hire both on a regular basis and normally get shot down like the president of the AV Club on prom night. With common grebbers, with leaders, with a noble, and I've seen other PCs get similarly rejected.
If Bynners and desert guides wanted more work, they'd be getting it. Trust me.
As long as rangers try to charge 400+ coins just to ride somebody through a storm without guarding them... they won't get hired much.
As long as Byn sergeants say that escort/guard contracts are "beneath them," they won't get many jobs like that.
I do agree that travel between the cities is too easy, but I fail to see how making it plodding and slow makes it more dangerous at all. If nothing's out there to pounce you while you're resting, resting just prolongs the trip. It doesn't make it dangerous or tense.
I think the solution to making travel more dangerous is to reopen gith as a playable race.
Edited for clarity. I mix words up.
I am behind the idea of making the main roads and well known travel routes much more dangerous than they currently are as I've said in my post before (I think that would revive the need for Byn escourt, and desert guides) ... but uniformly dangerous all throughout the entire waste seems like a bit much to me if that equates to aggro-mobs in every other room, all pumped to the point that only 5+ day old warriors can stand a chance against them.
I think that if one stays off the main roads and takes to the wilderness instead, it should hold different hazards, but in terms of aggro-mobs, I think a very slight increase, if any, is all that would be needed for areas not on the main path. What do I mean by different hazards?
Sandstorms.
Having to climb cliffs/Avoid holes.
Perhaps the need to sneak through some tribe's territory.
Needing to rest more often because there isn't a road, hence the journey taking longer.
Dark tunnels through the Shield Wall.
And Lastly ... perhpas running afoul of a nasty animal out on the hunt.
I'm all for raiders on the road, because as people wanting to raid, they know they stand a better chance of finding people on the north road than they do standing in the middle of the grasslands watching the whipleaf grow.
But I don't like the idea of raptors/carru/gortok/other monsters of the week prowling the north road. Those animals probably do not consider sentient beings their main source of food (carru eat plants for God's sake) ... ... ... ok well maybe scarabs do but other than them ... I feel like those animals should be staying clear of the roads by and large since they should have figured out by now that approaching the argosy = being dead.
I hope that's comming across clear. I'd like two seperate types of dangers for the wilds. Danger for the folks who want to move through it like merchants and "from city to city travellers" (ie on the roads), and different dangers for the folks who live in the desert or travel through it without feeling the need to stick to the path ... like your rangers, solo-magickers, tribals, and so on.
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 26, 2008, 12:35:23 AM
Quote from: mansa on November 26, 2008, 12:20:46 AM
An idea brought up by Psionic Fungus on the AIM Blast chat is that you increase the movement delay when you are "outside". I definitely do not think that increasing the movement penalty will solve anything, except to keep players who do not have enough time on their hands.
Did someone else bring that up?
No. But it's another good idea.
Yeah I suggested that in another thread, and stand by it. Hell, leave roads at normal delay, I'm only interested in wilderness rooms.
Quote from: Fathi on November 26, 2008, 08:28:19 AM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 26, 2008, 08:07:43 AM
Nobody hires the Byn anymore.
Why?
Travel is too easy.
Nobody ever really hires desert guides anymore.
Why?
Desert's too safe.
I try to hire both on a regular basis and normally get shot down like the president of the AV Club on prom night. With common grebbers, with leaders, with a noble, and I've seen other PCs get similarly rejected.
If Bynners and desert guides wanted more work, they'd be getting it. Trust me.
As long as rangers try to charge 400+ coins just to ride somebody through a storm without guarding them... they won't get hired much.
As long as Byn sergeants say that escort/guard contracts are "beneath them," they won't get many jobs like that.
I do agree that travel between the cities is too easy, but I fail to see how making it plodding and slow makes it more dangerous at all. If nothing's out there to pounce you while you're resting, resting just prolongs the trip. It doesn't make it dangerous or tense.
I think the solution to making travel more dangerous is to reopen gith as a playable race.
Edited for clarity. I mix words up.
When I was in the byn I hated simple guard contracts simply because it wasn't dangerous. Put me in the byn doing the same "boring" escorting contracts during the age of gith captains and marauding raptor packs,
hells yes I'm taking those contracts.
I can't agree that this needs to be done. I've recently seen that the north road is not NEARLY so safe as claims have been made. The balance of travel seems just about right here, and newbs(read people like me) still get slaughtered horribly for exploring. Further, this only polarizes even further the people who know the game in and out and those that don't. Doubling the movement costs just exploits ooc knowledge. I do not want.
There's really only one thing that "needs" to be done, to give everyone much more of a rush when venturaing out of cities:
randomize the spawn points.
If you don't know that "the carru" is going to show up in "that" room...
even if you know there's a carru somewhere along this area...somewhere..maybe..
then you'll re-gain that element of surprise that seems to be lacking in the minds and enjoyment of some players.
If you don't know that the tembo is within chasing distance today - whereas 2 RL days ago it spawned 20 rooms deeper into the area...
if you don't know that the trio of gortoks is spawning today 5 rooms southwest of the gate, instead of 25...
if they're not just chasing people to those spots, but actually spawning in those spots..
raptors, spawning 1 room off the road, instead of 2?
even meks - showing up at a closer spot on the grid to the road outside the merchant gate than usual..
but still allow a "perimeter of safety" for spawn points so nothing is spawning ON the road...or on the room just outside the gate...
since it doesn't make sense for these critters to *want* to be in those locations..but there's nothing stopping them from wanting to be close enough to smell your sweat when you venture out to the unknown.
In summary, provide more of an unknown factor. More critters will mean *nothing* once everyone learns where those critters are spawning. We'll be right back where we are now, with people begging for changes to make it more dangerous.
I repeat - the only reason it isn't dangerous, is because you the player know how to avoid the danger. Randomize the spawn points, and you will cease to know, and your challenge will be restored.
Doubling movement points will not make the wild seem harsher IC. Just make trips longer and possibly a Pain in the back OOCly.
More NPCs baddies would make desert travel harsher.
More expensive mounts and the fear of loosing them would make dessert travel harsher.
A byn Sgt. that won't take contracts (never seen this happen when they had the men for the job) should be quickly disposed of by a trooper who things he knows better.
If you think it should take more than 5 minutes to get from point A to point B, MAKE IT TAKE MORE THAN FIVE MINUTES.
If you don't want to wait on staff to make the road more dangerous, find an IC reason to go off road (will be more dangerous AND take longer).
PS- All you people that keep bringing up the staff opening/reopening a PC raiding clan... BUILD A PC RAIDING CLAN IC.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 26, 2008, 10:40:23 AM
There's really only one thing that "needs" to be done, to give everyone much more of a rush when venturing out of cities:
This.
As a newb, I still wet myself every time something unexpected wanders into the same room as me. I want you all to have that damp, self-wetted feeling, too.
Also, for the random spawnpoints, make "special spawns" occasionally possible. If I may be so crass as to pull a suggestion from WoW ... occasionally, have an "elite" spawn where a normal critter would. An old, scarred, albino raptor or an especially cunning gortok or an especially hungry halfling. Or, a 1/100 chance that in the lone gith spawn spot, a small war-band will spawn and then head for the nearest road. That way, randomly, once every few RL weeks, there will be a real threat on the roads that needs to be taken care of, but it will be random, so no one can quite plan on it but also automated, so the staff don't have to spend time making a special event (once the first coding has been done).
I think we might be sort of saying the same things over and over now.
Two opinions to throw out there:
(1) Increasing off-road movement cost will severely hurt hunters. Unless they're all road-huntin'.
(2) Danger in the wilderness: persistent, low-level danger is good and makes people careful. Rare, high-level danger doesn't make people careful, it just makes 'em dead.
I say:
Lower max Stamina to 75% of what it is now.
Add in more mid level threats to the road.
Quote from: Delstro on November 26, 2008, 11:08:32 AM
I say:
Lower max Stamina to 75% of what it is now.
Add in more mid level threats to the road.
My current stam in 113, 102 if I don't sleep. So you're going to give me 75 stam? Thanks. I'll never be able to chop wood again or forage for anything. Then add on scan or watch or listen, and I'm down to 65 probably, IF I have a good skill level. No thank you. More smaller baddies, random popping. That is what we need.
You are not a mount, my friend. Well. I will not mount you. I am sorry.
I meant for mounts.
Quote from: Delstro on November 26, 2008, 11:15:18 AM
You are not a mount, my friend. Well. I will not mount you. I am sorry.
I meant for mounts.
Might want to clarify that in your orgnial post then.
I think the randomization of spawn points is the best idea I've heard out there, period, as far as adding excitement to my traveling life goes. Second I wouldn't mind doubling movement point costs for mounts or lowering their max stamina. It is kind of ridiculous how far and fast you can travel on a mount, along the roads.
However, most of the rest of the ideas presented here would just make my game experience either more boring, which is bad, or that the 'benefits' would entirely not offset the ARGH! factor.
Finally...
QuoteAs long as rangers the Byn try tries to charge 400+ coins just to ride somebody through a storm without guarding them... they won't get hired much.
I fixed you Fathi!
I don't see how hiring the Byn should factor into the argument. I wouldn't hire the Byn even IF the roads were more dangerous, because any quote I have ever gotten from the Byn, period, has been too expensive for my average character. Heck they were nearly too expensive for an escort job on my
noble stipend.
Quote from: Shiroi Tsuki on November 26, 2008, 11:22:34 AM
I think the randomization of spawn points is the best idea I've heard out there, period, as far as adding excitement to my traveling life goes. Second I wouldn't mind doubling movement point costs for mounts or lowering their max stamina. It is kind of ridiculous how far and fast you can travel on a mount, along the roads.
However, most of the rest of the ideas presented here would just make my game experience either more boring, which is bad, or that the 'benefits' would entirely not offset the ARGH! factor.
Finally...
QuoteAs long as rangers the Byn try tries to charge 400+ coins just to ride somebody through a storm without guarding them... they won't get hired much.
I fixed you Fathi!
I don't see how hiring the Byn should factor into the argument. I wouldn't hire the Byn even IF the roads were more dangerous, because any quote I have ever gotten from the Byn, period, has been too expensive for my average character. Heck they were nearly too expensive for an escort job on my noble stipend.
Nobles are poor. Fact of life. They do not have money. Their money is expected to go to paying other PCs to keep the game fun. They have NO MONEY!!!
Ok, now, after that derail I have something to add.
Walking around in the grasslands on a beetle. After half a day of walking around attempting to find SOMETHING to kill, beetle was very tired. Half a day. Lower max stem? Quarter of a day. Not a good idea. Make more random mid/lowish level baddies!
Edited: Typed stun instead of stam. ~halo~
I think another pc raiding group would solve this with npc support. Like the blackmoon
I don't see a problem with that. Sounds like you were using a WARbeetle. Not a TRAVELINGbeetle.
*bows out of thread*
My point was 'oh boo I had to spend all my money on other PCs rather than buy myself pretties' it was 'oh man, I'm not going to be able to pay the regular PCs in my employ much less fund that RPT I planned because the Byn is charging a ridiculous amount of money for a very simple job'.
Back on topic!
I've been frequently known to ditch mounts to go hunting on foot with certain classes or during certain times, because it seems like a person's stam comes back a lot more quickly than a mount's stam. I don't really see that as a problem, I guess, because in my head mounts are generally for the purpose of traveling between cities rather than going out riding in circles with. I'd much rather see mount movement cost increased on the road, but if it was going to be an across the board increase, it'd be even more difficult on grasslands or desert hunting than a reduction of stam would be I think.
Rather than doubling movement costs, or doing anything so drastic anywhere, why not make a mount's stamina scale more equally with a normal humans? (At least after being loaded down with said human.)
I still don't like the idea, but it seems both a better and more realistic fix than just making travel drudgery.
re: OP
Please don't. Travel is annoying enough as it is.
If you have time to slow down and savor it, do so. If you don't, it's nice to get that trip over with so you can log out.
Quote from: Shiroi Tsuki on November 26, 2008, 11:22:34 AM
I don't see how hiring the Byn should factor into the argument. I wouldn't hire the Byn even IF the roads were more dangerous, because any quote I have ever gotten from the Byn, period, has been too expensive for my average character. Heck they were nearly too expensive for an escort job on my noble stipend.
Too expensive? Only because people know they can most likely get away without using them because of how easy it is to travel between Allanak and Tuluk. The Byn is actually pretty cheap generally. If a travelling independent merchant laden with goods had to a) travel slowly because of lumbering pack mounts and b) was fairly likely to encounter either caravan raiders or dangerous animals along the they would -gladly- suck up losing 15-20% of their profits to get there safely. That'd be the price of doing business. This is the way things should be in my opinion. But at the moment they know they can load up their inix, dash from place to place and keep that 500-1,000 'sid to add to the 10,000 'sid they already have sitting in the bank. I routinely hired the Byn with my last merchant and still grew fat on the profits on trade runs. If you're just an "average character" who's not earning much 'sid on runs between the two places then the Byn's services aren't for you. Some contracts are beneath them. A job that'll net them twenty 'sid each in the end after expenses is a waste of their time.
I can sympathise on the noble stipend piece - when independent characters earn in 2 days what you might get, depending on the Imms, in a few RL weeks it just gets frustrating. This isn't the Byn's fault though. If it were up to me escorts wouldn't be paid by the noble but by the House itself. As soon as 5 Bynners take out their mounts for a job they're down 100 'sid. Then, any final payment has to be divvied up amongst all the earning members and if escort rates were set at the level that some people seem to think they should be then, frankly, your Bynner would be better off stepping 3 rooms outside the gates and collecting 3 bimbal leaves. As a Byn Sarge I gave out plenty of escort contract payments in the 75-100 'sid region. Byn rates are fine in my opinion (unless they've been ramped up recently) and the clearest indication of this is that even when times are pretty busy contract wise they never get rich really.
Anyway, back on topic - I'd like to see most mounts' stamina levels reduced so that they're pretty tired by the time they get to Luirs. This won't hurt hunters - they already make large sums of money partly because they're able to roam far and wide so easily and pinching this a bit won't kill them. They'd be -just- fine and would have to get out of the mindset of clearing out entire areas and focus on particular hunting grounds. I'd also like to see more mid-level threats along the way to encourage merchants to use escorts. A virtual caravan that travels between places would probably be necessary for off-peakers or for times that you just can't find players to do escorts - I'd have this take 8 RL hours so you'd join the caravan before you log off for the night, pay the fee and log in the next day at your location. I'd also add in the ability to quit anywhere with a 5 minute lead time for non-rangers so people who need to log out can do so anytime they need to relatively quickly. I would also love to see a proper raiding clan just to provide an element of the unexpected when travelling. Players respond to risks or the lack thereof. The lack of risk at the moment is reflected in the way people are doing things.
How about just doubling the IC distance between the city-states? That serves two purposes. It throws a bone into the plans of the spamwalkers who have the world memorized, and would cause travelers to have a reason to stop at Luir's to rest.
All without hampering one's ability to move around without getting tired. And you're adding CONTENT to the game, which is always awesome.
Doubling the distance between cities would would equate into thousands of rooms of construction and is not a viable way to solve this problem. Entire zones would need to be reconstructed. We have to work with the world we have already.
So bring on a couple builders to develope new zones. I've written/built for MUDs before. It's not really that difficult, and two new builders working an hour or two a day, four days a week could have that ammount of content put in in a couple months, easy.
I'd even be willing to volunteer to write room descriptions and area themes myself, if they were interested in taking on such a project.
I believe the main reason that more rooms won't be put in is the fact that the playerbase will be spread out even thinner than it is currently. This is not desirable. I say throw in NPCs, gith and such like there used to be. I have no idea whether it was IC or not for them to be removed from the roads, but I do believe some sort of humanoid threat should be thrown back in to make people be able to fend for themselves or hire people who can do that for them when traveling.
I kinda liked the idea of making Gith a playable race again.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 26, 2008, 05:30:05 PM
I kinda liked the idea of making Gith a playable race again.
I don't know. Gith should be removed from the game. Didn't they attack Allanak? Wouldn't you think they are nearly extinct?
I think a new kind of creature is a good idea. Something unique to ArmageddonMUD, that -can- carry over to Armageddon 2.0
I would love to see the wastes dangerous again. In particular, the area west of Allanak could do with some... terror. But I remember with terror the days of screaming gith hordes and very few indies since solo travel was a pretty certain death sentence to any <5 day char. Balance, folks. Don't pander to the pussies, but please don't turn a tough guy like me into a snivelling little bitch, afraid to go out.
-WP has been there. :(
Don't double stamina drain. That's a horrid idea.
Increase the danger in other ways.
Quote from: WarriorPoet on November 26, 2008, 05:50:50 PM
I would love to see the wastes dangerous again. In particular, the area west of Allanak could do with some... terror. But I remember with terror the days of screaming gith hordes and very few indies since solo travel was a pretty certain death sentence to any <5 day char. Balance, folks. Don't pander to the pussies, but please don't turn a tough guy like me into a snivelling little bitch, afraid to go out.
QFFTM
I would also like to say.
SOMEBODY ACTUALLY CREATE A NEW RACE!
People want new race of beings, there's gonna be new races out there in 2.Arm. Somebody make a vile sorc who captures Muls an' halflings and then in the dead of night when it's pitch black and storming and your deep down in your deep dark cave tries to use evil magicks to conjure up a super race of warriors while laughing manically and then you set them loose upon the worlds to wreak terror and havoc and distract everybody from your -true- master plan of creating a Gith-Mantis but all the Mantis and Gith set upon you in disgusted revenge and you DESTROY THEM ALL IN A FIERY MAGICK BATTLE OF UNFATHOMABLE COSMIC POWER THAT LEAVES A HUGE SMOKING CRATER SOMEWHERE IN THE KNOW AND YOU DRAIN YOURSELF OFF ALL LIFE LEAVING NAUGHT BUT A SMOLDERING PILE OF ASHES AND A LEGEND!.... *gasp*. *pant for breath*.*suck in huge breath*
pemote eyes roll back as he passes out.
like fire ants and spiders and scorpions oh my
maybe some lions.
Quote from: mansa on November 26, 2008, 07:04:33 PM
like fire ants and spiders and scorpions oh my
maybe some lions.
This makes me think... brings some of the dangerous NPCs that are already in the game, but next to impossible to find, into the open.
Running into more animals that don't halve help files would be interesting and provide new challenges to PCs that know the tricks about taking on certain animals.
Not to mention all the gossip and RPTs that they could bring about, rich city folk wanting these things captured alive and caged for all to see.
Again ... I will say it.
Please do not turn the north road into: The place where the monsters of the week hang out to get slaughtered by 10+ day warriors.
Raiders? Awesome. Gith? Cool. Mantis? Erm ... I'd say no just because they're more interested in food, not fighting/stealing ... unless of course someone is directing them too. Halflings? Meh ... ok but again, I'd say only with a plot-related reason.
Those kinds of sentient baddies might have a reason to prowling the road looking for travellers. Wild animals just don't, in my opinion. Please leave the "scary wild animals" threat to the hunters and rangers who make a point of venturing out into those wild animals' territory. Don't spam the civilized areas with them, I fear that would make the game into a hack and slash o'rama.
There are incredibly powerful interests in game that more than likely wish that road to remain clear.
Quote from: musashi on November 26, 2008, 09:05:04 PM
Raiders? Awesome. Gith? Cool. Mantis? Erm ... I'd say no just because they're more interested in food, not fighting/stealing ... unless of course someone is directing them too. Halflings? Meh ... ok but again, I'd say only with a plot-related reason.
Those kinds of sentient baddies might have a reason to prowling the road looking for travellers. Wild animals just don't, in my opinion. Please leave the "scary wild animals" threat to the hunters and rangers who make a point of venturing out into those wild animals' territory. Don't spam the civilized areas with them, I fear that would make the game into a hack and slash o'rama.
Absolutely.
I'd love to see bands of NPC raiders and highwaymen along the road.
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on November 26, 2008, 09:49:03 PM
I'd love to see bands of NPC raiders and highwaymen along the road.
Especially if they could be loaded with some scripts to subdue/attack with mercy on and steal stuff, instead of just instaganking.
Quote from: Tisiphone on November 26, 2008, 09:52:31 PM
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on November 26, 2008, 09:49:03 PM
I'd love to see bands of NPC raiders and highwaymen along the road.
Especially if they could be loaded with some scripts to subdue/attack with mercy on and steal stuff, instead of just instaganking.
Amen.
Quote from: Tisiphone on November 26, 2008, 09:52:31 PM
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on November 26, 2008, 09:49:03 PM
I'd love to see bands of NPC raiders and highwaymen along the road.
Especially if they could be loaded with some scripts to subdue/attack with mercy on and steal stuff, instead of just instaganking.
Hell yes.
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on November 26, 2008, 10:09:28 PM
Quote from: Tisiphone on November 26, 2008, 09:52:31 PM
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on November 26, 2008, 09:49:03 PM
I'd love to see bands of NPC raiders and highwaymen along the road.
Especially if they could be loaded with some scripts to subdue/attack with mercy on and steal stuff, instead of just instaganking.
Hell yes.
That would be AWESOME. Then you'd not only have a chance at survival, but could create a mini-RPT by calling up the cavalry and hunting down the gith that stole your favorite lucky rock.
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on November 26, 2008, 10:09:28 PM
Quote from: Tisiphone on November 26, 2008, 09:52:31 PM
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on November 26, 2008, 09:49:03 PM
I'd love to see bands of NPC raiders and highwaymen along the road.
Especially if they could be loaded with some scripts to subdue/attack with mercy on and steal stuff, instead of just instaganking.
Hell yes.
Let's not forget sap.
I like alot of what I've heard.
I just want to reiterate:
This Is Not A Mount Problem.
Mounts are perfect right now, in relation to their stamina and how much better they are to use than if you were walking the same distance. It's not the amount of mount stamina that matters. If they were made lower, it would be easier for some rangers just to go on foot.
It is an overall issue of travel. It affects being mounted just as much as being on foot and definitely affects Desert Elves too.
So any kind of solution will need to take into account all modes of travel. (And there's been some great ideas offered). But not something so simple as lowering mount's stamina.
This is not a mount problem, this is a geography problem.
I suggest that we allow some of the roads to be worn away by the weather unless maintained, or at least increase the stamina drain on the roads.
In other words, only increase the stamina drain on the roads. Make the advantage of roads be that they are well traveled and therefore sometimes free of dangers...and sometimes attract more dangers. But more then halving the stamina cost? Too much of an advantage unless the staff want/need people to travel to consolidate the player base for playability reasons.
Morrolan
Quote from: Morrolan on November 27, 2008, 02:05:12 AM
I suggest that we allow some of the roads to be worn away by the weather unless maintained, or at least increase the stamina drain on the roads.
This has happened to various parts of the roads in the past, but with Tuluk and Allanak currently engaged in a truce, it seems right that the roads are maintained right now.
KIA
Quote from: KIA on November 27, 2008, 02:37:30 AM
Quote from: Morrolan on November 27, 2008, 02:05:12 AM
I suggest that we allow some of the roads to be worn away by the weather unless maintained, or at least increase the stamina drain on the roads.
This has happened to various parts of the roads in the past, but with Tuluk and Allanak currently engaged in a truce, it seems right that the roads are maintained right now.
KIA
But to me, it seems wrong that you never see NPC 'Nak or Tuluk military/slaves out there maintaining the roads. All in all I think that the speed at which you can make your way from Allanak, to Luirs, to Tuluk is fine. Rather, it seems like the lack of danger when on the road is the problem.
I like a lot of the ideas I heard about raiders and what have you prowling the roads, esp the one about scripting them to just beat you up and loot you ... and I could even get behind the idea of lowering the stamina drain discount the road provides (though I still think it should remain even if it's just a point or two).
But I still hold firm to the idea that doubling the cost of movement is not the right way to go about making the wilds seem more dangerous.
This, imho, seems fairly straight forward. The known world has two major centers of civilization, several merchantile empires with an interest in unimpeded trade, and Luir's in the middle. Just saying.
Movement penalty is a totally decent idea.
Quote from: tortall on November 26, 2008, 12:06:54 AM
Quote from: mansa on November 25, 2008, 11:49:07 PM
I think it would be more productive to add more environment to the game, than to add double movement points. That's my stance on it.
I walked around outside Tuluk for a day and saw TWO critters. Neither were bad or difficult. WTF happened? Are people over hunting again?
*points towards the lump under the rug.*
Quote from: UnderSeven on November 26, 2008, 11:53:06 AM
I think another pc raiding group would solve this with npc support. Like the blackmoon
Agreed. There was a raiding group at one part in time that made it hard for travel along the road. We don't need the increased stamina penalties to for threats to engage us along the North Road, and if you mercenaries, guards, or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, want something to do, make it worth someone's wild to invite you to come along on the trip.
It seems to me that people are asking for more threats, but no one is willing to contribute to the cause. A coded penalty isn't the way to go here people.
A PC raiding group would be nice, so long as nobody goes and whines to the templars about how some desert elf stole their shit when they were on the road, and the templars go out and declare all out war.
What happens on North Road, stays on North Road. Unless you're the Byn, but seriously, who hires those pansies anyways?
Return Armageddon to its roots: PK more.
Quote from: Yam on November 27, 2008, 08:02:43 PM
Return Armageddon to its roots: PK more.
+2 points for Yam.
Quote from: Yam on November 27, 2008, 08:02:43 PM
Return Armageddon to its roots: PK more.
This is ultimately flawed because there are a great many people whom are almost entirely immune from any but the most incredibly skilled, equipped and lead of PC raiders or bandits. And many of these are mundane. So it does nothing really in the long run.
There's nothing inherently wrong with making people actually need to stop at least once when trekking from Nak to Tuluk and back. Otherwise, Luirs wouldn't exist.
Quote from: Clearsighted on November 27, 2008, 08:21:22 PM
Quote from: Yam on November 27, 2008, 08:02:43 PM
Return Armageddon to its roots: PK more.
This is ultimately flawed because there are a great many people whom are almost entirely immune from any but the most incredibly skilled, equipped and lead of PC raiders or bandits. And many of these are mundane. So it does nothing really in the long run.
There's nothing inherently wrong with making people actually need to stop at least once when trekking from Nak to Tuluk and back. Otherwise, Luirs wouldn't exist.
If you beat them to death along the roadside, they will stop and rest.
No one is immune to death in this game.... Maybe Tek, Muk Utep, and those other guys.
The problem with approaching the perceived problem, as it has been developed in this thread, is that it will lead to escalation of the incriminated behavior. It will *not* achieved the desired goal. As long as their are finite spawn points and solvable algorythms for npc behavior, people will eventually gather sufficient data points to render any non-human controlled response moot. There is definitely learning software(its even freeware!) available that could rebuff my statement, but, I doubt the staff wants to take the time to plug in AI development models into npc control. Though that could make a wicked-bad project/thesis. Not to sound condescending, but this, again, seems spawned of complacency that comes with familiarity.
If you've played 15 years and know every god-damn thing about the game, you'll only be satisfied with new content. This happens for staff too(which I've been, but not here). You learn all the precious "secrets" and sudden its dull from a "exploration" perspective. Of course, making compelling stories with excellent players is *never* dull. Arm has plenty of potential there, but you just need to be ambitious/motivated enough to do it.
When Luirs was infested with Mantis, crossing from one city state to the other seemed a lot more dangerous.
But, I'd prefer that danger come from PC Raiders rather than NPC hordes. The PC militia, house military wings, and Byn units would have an interesting enemy to fight -- instant plots without much ongoing staff involvement. Monster hordes need a staff member to create interesting scenarios. Otherwise, the horde is just a big, dumb collection of NPCs for savvy players to avoid or exploit.
If the danger comes from PCs, then the danger of the roads would scale with the playerbase's size. An offpeak player could usually get away with crossing the desert without having to hire the Byn.
The problem is PCs who live dangerously (for example, raiding) die earlier than the domesticated tavern-sitter. Which leads, strangely, to the potential marks often being scarier in combat than the typical raider. Yes, it's possible to have a scary raider PC under the current rules, but it's a rare achievement. Successful raider PCs should be more somewhat common.
To flatten the power curve, raiders need some coded help. Infest Luirs or set up south and north camp with race X, open race X to play at d-elf karma. The disadvantage of race X would be they are considered KOS by all civilized persons (most notably guards at all settlements), and don't speak the common language. The advantage of the raider race would be pretty good combat skills (say, 5 to 10 days worth of Byn sparring) right out the gate.
My gut feeling is to dislike the suggestion number13, sorry.
I just don't think I'd feel comfortable with starting out a race of people 5-10 days ahead of the average PC, solely for the purpose of looking around for other PC's to fight with.
I'm all for PC's doing some raiding, but I would rather see these raiding groups as PC created clans, or perhaps tribes that have a penchant for raiding ... rather than some sub-race of humans, the way we have city and desert elves. Human, and raider human seems a bit weird to me.
Also, I would like for any PC doing the raiding to have put in their training time just the same as the player that they're trying to raid. I've had my characters robbed quite a bit out in the wilds ... sometimes the raider is stronger than my PC and I end up begging for my life and get left with nothing but a loincloth ... sometimes my PC sends the raider running and has a chuckle about it ... sometimes it never comes to combat because the raider just wants a headwrap or the hide I just skinned, and it's less of a bother to just give it to them and send them on their way.
I don't want all of those possible situations to suddenly default to: The raider beats you up and leaves you with nothing but your loincloth.
:-[
Quote from: musashi on November 30, 2008, 09:46:16 AM
I just don't think I'd feel comfortable with starting out a race of people 5-10 days ahead of the average PC, solely for the purpose of looking around for other PC's to fight with.
My (sketchy) math says you aren't going to see too many raiders, and the majority that are seen will be weaker than their targets.
Think of it this way --
If a raider faces an average of 4 life or death situations over the course of 1 day of playing, and a mark faces between 0 and 1 life or death situation over the course of 1 day playing then the average marks will be more powerful than the average raider, and therefore difficult to impossible to successfully defeat.
Both characters advance their skills and combat potency at the same rate. In fact, the mark might actually increase his combat potency faster due to greater availably of other players to spar with, not to mention relatively safe practice hunting NPCs. Meanwhile, one flunked life or death savings throw, and characters start over at zero earned combat potency. If a player is dedicated to the idea of playing a raider, then he'll find himself at zero earned combat potency far far more often than a player dedicated to the idea of playing a tavern sitter.
This doesn't factor in the infamy a raider will attain, leading the eventuality of his death as other players (backed by the resources of city-states) become intent on PKing the raider.
The end result is what we see now -- there is no gamist incentive* for playing a raider as a primary occupation, so we see few serious raiders. North Road is almost as safe as the Templar's Row.
Adding hostile NPCs is a bandaid creates other problems -- offpeak players are penalized; OOC knowledge of NPC spawning positions/coded behaviors is rewarded; sophisticated interactions are difficult/impossible (for example, can't bribe an NPC to leave you alone).
Using empowered PCs as raiders carries the risk of PCs abusing their coded power. Truth, but it's the same for just about every class/race with karma. For example, half-giants begin the game able to defeat just about any other player, with only roleplaying concerns and the city-state's coded law enforcement to keep them in check.
....
*[It may be advantageous to act on the occasional opportunity (for example, mugging a wounded hunter rather than helping or ignoring him), but there is little advantage to turning it into a lifestyle.]
I don't mind PC raiders. Indeed, they do add a facet to the game.
But I still want to see a modern, situation-appropriate return of the gith hordes. Gith were an instant reason to head out and do military stuff. They didn't require staff intervention to be fun to do. If you're worried about penalizing off-peak players, then ask staff to make an algorithm to account for off-peak play. Certain NPCs could peter off (read: be purged) or ramp up (read: be loaded) based on how many PCs were online.
Villainous NPCs are a reliable source of military IC fun and danger. Bring them back.
Quote from: number13 on November 30, 2008, 10:20:04 AM
Using empowered PCs as raiders carries the risk of PCs abusing their coded power. Truth, but it's the same for just about every class/race with karma. For example, half-giants begin the game able to defeat just about any other player, with only roleplaying concerns and the city-state's coded law enforcement to keep them in check.
Suggestion: Leave raiders to regular PC's, make your raiders have the (perfectly logical, perfectly IC) goal of swaying a half-giant into joining up with their little venture.
I believe, number13, that your math may be flawed, because it doesn't seem that you are accounting for the fact that raider PC's may very well be doing other things besides just looking for people to raid, and rightly so I think.
A PC who wants to raid other PC's but is new does not, and probably should not, go out and start attacking heavily armed individuals on the road the same way that a hunter PC who's new should not go looking for a carru as his first catch.
I just feel that everyone, reguardless of what job they want to persue in game should put their "grind time" in the same as everyone else. The example you gave of half-giants coming into the game able to kill just about anyone else seems a little off to me as well. I admit I haven't ever played a half-giant or been fighting one so I don't have a comparison but ... I'm better sorcerers and mindbenders don't enter the game able to insta-kill other PC's. My suspicions tell me they enter the game perhaps more helpless than a warrior or ranger would, and probably have to survive their way up into power (again, I'm just guessing, I admit it) ... and they're the highest karma classes available.
I just think everyone should start at the newbie level for their skills and work themselves up unless it's some kind of special application. Raiders who want to be successful raiders should probably start small, the same way characters who want to be silt horror hunters should likewise, probably set their newbie priorities a little lower and aim for that as an end goal.
It is definitely more likely that a hunter will die more often than a house PC, however, ALL NON-combat experienced, all sole hunters, all ex-tor house guards, all bards, etc, and etc... You should be fearful of someone riding up on you in full combat gear telling you to "Drop that or die". Why would you just attack the raider nonchalantly, and then if you start to lose, you give in, or if he starts to lose, you keep going all out? THOSE are REAL weapons. They are really cutting you and hitting you. Why are you carelessly risking your PCs life, just to see if the raider is more experienced than your PC? That sounds unrealistic to me. That is in my own honest opinion.
If some serious looking raider got close enough to me to start demanding that I do something, then I will drop my pack and ride off into the distance happy I didn't die. He -could- have people hiding out waiting for you to make your move, but you know that raiders are usually alone in the game, so you are just going to attack him?
Fear the unknown. It is the only thing keeping you alive.
On the other hand, if some asshat rode up on you wearing silk, linen, and a big branch, and they told me to drop everything but my loincloth, I'd tell them to fuck off. The key to raiding is go BIG or be mildly annoying. Don't take everything, snatch and run. That is all. Good day.
???
Umm, knock-knock, certain favorite D-elf tribe I'm looking at you. There are PC groups that -should- be raiding, they would rather run around and explore the Known though. Just sayin'
I don't think the issue will be fixed or helped by PC raiding. In fact, I think PC raiding only exacerbates the current flaws.
Everyone knows the reason why dedicated PC raiders often tend to be far less adept than dedicated tavern sitters. No need to repeat the whys or wherefores. We all deep down know what actually goes on. There is furthermore already a low karma, dedicated raider clan that everyone hates. There are even successful raiders who have courageously taken it upon themselves to give others a harder time. Of course, they are also (for the most part) all magickers who needed to spend only 2-3 days sitting in a cave somewhere, instead of 20-30 honing mundane skills. (Not to say that it doesn't take much more for a magicker to truly master their craft, but they can become relatively powerful at dealing with mundane threats, especially mundane PCs in a short amount of time).
And the last thing we want to do is encourage more magickers than their already is. Right? Right??
So I still think, in the long run, that simply doubling everyone's movement costs is the most elegant and practical solution. And that goes for both mounts, delves and whatever it takes to do other movey stuff.
EDIT: And not to get too IC, but my current PC has dealt with /alot/ of dedicated raiders, and I still feel this way. Probably had more recent raider interaction than the vast majority of the playerbase at this stage.