Over the past few months I've been struggling with the fact that I simply do not have time for this game. I make a character, fail at progression, fail to get involved, and watch my interest drop until I no longer log in at all.
I don't mind putting a night or two a week into a game, but the game needs to be engaging, fun and satisfying when I do log in. I don't find that Arm gives me that unless I play minimum three or four nights a week.
The question I'm putting forward, is how can Arm be more accessible to those with low playtimes? What can be changed structurally to accommodate it? How can such individuals enjoy it as it currently is?
I think that we'd find the amount of players rose substantially if we could play without dedicating the kind of time the game currently requires. It might reduce burnout on players who currently feel obligated to play constantly, and it would certainly draw a more 'casual' game crowd. That casual crowd means a lot more people that are no longer in school, which is a very appealing demographic to market to if we're looking for a mature, intensive roleplaying game.
I don't think there really is any way to accommodate low play times, without alienating the people who play fairly regularly. Thing is, as a regular player, I need reliable people to RP with. If they only show up once or twice every RL week, then I know I can't count on them for much. Especially if there are weeks when you're on vacation, or I'm on vacation, or you get sick, or I have to work late... real life happens and when you're already hardly ever logged in, that makes it doubly frustrating because now instead of just seeing you once that week, I'm not seeing you until the week after. By then my character could've been dead for 10 days and I'd be branching my new vivaduan already.
So I don't think it's a problem with the game not being able to accommodate sparse players. It's more a matter of the more frequent players wanting to keep things moving along and not have to wait RL days for someone to log in.
I think that flavor characters are the best for low play times. The lifetime sid farmer, the veteran hunter, the eternal Bynner, the drunk, the beggar ... these would, to me, seem the be the least involved and yet most rewarding for minimal playtime.
Ok, this is slightly a tangent from the original post, but not worth its own thread.
Here's my situation: I have a character that I love, but I cannot due the character justice in its current role (not a leadership role, btw) because of recent time constraints. I really do not want to say goodbye to this character forever. On the other hand, I tend not to log in at all recently because of the character's IC job requirements, etc.
I'm very tempted to store the character and make an indy/flavor character. If I did this, would I be able to un-store and return to my (current) character months down the road when my schedule changes again?
On the one hand, I don't want to lose my character.
On the other hand, it's silly that I -think- about the game and read the GDB in my spare time at work, but I don't log in at all.
Thoughts? I seem to be in the same situation as Staggerlee. I can't play constantly, so I end up not playing at all.
You can definitely ask for the option to unstore - it isn't unheard of. There's probably some criteria involved - is your character solidly entrenched in his existence? Are there reasonable IC explanations for a prolonged absence and return? Is it a karma role that you really wanted to try but the timing turns out to have been just all wrong, and you want to continue with it another time? Is it a role in a clan that was active when you created the character, and by the time you pointed to the city in the hall of kings, you ended up being the only member in it and don't want to play iso? Or even the reverse - you were expecting to be able to play a fairly iso role and showed up to a tribe full of PCs all demanding your attention...
I don't know what the criteria is for unstoring, those are just reasons I can think of that might be considered.
I do know that characters have been stored temporarily. I haven't "unstored" a character but I know it's been done in the recent past.
7DV's ideas for playing "flavor" roles is great for players who don't want to or can't spend regular time playing, but want to do the "weekend warrior" thing with Arm.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 11, 2008, 12:04:18 PM
I think that flavor characters are the best for low play times. The lifetime sid farmer, the veteran hunter, the eternal Bynner, the drunk, the beggar ... these would, to me, seem the be the least involved and yet most rewarding for minimal playtime.
Any suggestions for maintaining a sense of progression and significance for roles like that? Frankly they work fine if you're looking at a temporary dip in play times, but if it's a permanent matter those roles come out lacking.
They lack any hope of skill progression, meaningful interaction, any sense of 'game' and purpose or goal. And for the record I'm not just whining because I don't play much, but I see a pool of untapped players here that might play occasionally but can't handle the obsessive playtimes Arm seems to demand. I'd like to see the demographic the game appeals to in that way widened.
For what it's worth, I agree, but can't seem to find a solution. RPI games tend to be heavy on playtime demand.
Quote from: a strange shadow on November 11, 2008, 12:58:17 PM
For what it's worth, I agree, but can't seem to find a solution. RPI games tend to be heavy on playtime demand.
-From a code perspective I'd like to see faster skill progression with steeper diminishing returns. But that only solves one aspect of the problem and is well outside my ability to deal with.
-From a cultural perspective I'd like to see more significant roles that don't rely on networking or skill use, something that wouldn't require contacts, grinding, or hold up plots in their absence. An example might be a priest or village elder that was turned to when available for advice in a culturally and personally significant manner. (Again, requires documentation and changes to the game that are outside my scope)
Basically I/we need to approach this with what we do have available, and as it stands I agree with you Shadow... I don't see a solution. But that's why I'm hoping someone else does. ;)
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 11, 2008, 12:04:18 PM
I think that flavor characters are the best for low play times. The lifetime sid farmer, the veteran hunter, the eternal Bynner, the drunk, the beggar ... these would, to me, seem the be the least involved and yet most rewarding for minimal playtime.
On top of that advice, I'd also say that more iso characters are good for limited play times. The kinds of characters you don't exactly expect a lot of interaction with, but can consider it a gem when you get some.
Desert-wandering hunter types (delfs or otherwise).
Shadies of various sorts.
Indie-whatevers.
If you don't expect to get involved, the failing to get involved part sucks a lot less. If you pick a character to work on whose progression isn't dependent on other people being around, you can make more progressing on your lonesome. I think the engaging, fun, and satisfying aspects are all up to the player to create out of what time they have available.
I don't think there's anything about the
game that can be changed, or even needs to be changed, to accommodate people with low play times. I personally don't feel pressured to play the game constantly, even though I know if I miss three or four days and come back, things have typically progressed in my absence. Other things seem to take forever to get done. I don't know that I consider myself dedicated to the game, because playing is what I do when nothing else has come up. I don't tell my friends I'm not going to go out drinking with them because I have to play the game (unless it's a major RPT, or something I set up in advance with a leader PC).
I've noticed some benefits about not playing as often, ones that you've mentioned Staggerlee. I don't feel as jaded when I allow myself to take little breaks, I notice I have more to do when I am playing, more people to seek me out, things to talk about that went on in my absence... but I think that lowering one's play times or taking a break or whatever have to be the choice of the player, rather than something that's pushed on them from the outside. Or you're going to alienate people who do play frequently, and enjoy it.
Quote from: Shiroi Tsuki on November 11, 2008, 01:43:46 PM
I think the engaging, fun, and satisfying aspects are all up to the player to create out of what time they have available.
Like any activity in life (think proper diet, exercise, career, friendships, marriage, hobbies), ARM is only going to give back what's put into it. There's just no way around that truth. There's no system that can be built to get around it.
Also, if in theory there was some kind of system change that could be put into place to encourage many more players who only play 2 hours per week, how exactly would that benefit the playerbase as a whole? PCs who are never around can't contribute to plots much, they're impossible to form and continue relationships with, they can't lead, they can't be reliable minions, they can't be ongoing trade partners. At best they can provide an amusing interlude in a public place, if the player is skilled enough (most aren't).
OK, well, on further thought there is -one- system change I think could be implemented in part to help faciliate lower-playtime players: All coded clans getting the use of the "who c" command. That would make for more interaction between clannies for all clanned characters, including those with low playtimes.
Beyond that, what I think is needed is a talented PC leader who can involve low-playtime characters. And from there, it's entirely on the low-playtime player to make their own fun.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on November 11, 2008, 02:55:44 PM
OK, well, on further thought there is -one- system change I think could be implemented in part to help faciliate lower-playtime players: All coded clans getting the use of the "who c" command. That would make for more interaction between clannies for all clanned characters, including those with low playtimes.
This would be EXTREMELY helpful.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on November 11, 2008, 02:55:44 PM
...it's entirely on the low-playtime player to make their own fun.
Yeah. I'm mostly looking for advice on how to do that. I suspect that some roles are ridiculously good for it, and others are not.
Actually Shiroi those are some extremely good points. I'll give them some consideration.
Quote from: staggerlee on November 11, 2008, 03:45:38 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on November 11, 2008, 02:55:44 PM
...it's entirely on the low-playtime player to make their own fun.
Yeah. I'm mostly looking for advice on how to do that. I suspect that some roles are ridiculously good for it, and others are not.
Anything that makes you an "unwanted" and doesn't let you interact with a lot of people ICly:
Mutants
D-elves banished from their tribes
Escaped slaves
Spec app a gith (heh, you never know)
Become feared (be the reason people are scared to go to the grasslands without a small army)
or
Become loved (everyone loves it when Malik show up ones every RL week or two, because he always has they uber rare hides/stones/poisons/cures.)
Pick a direction of the known world and find a way to it, even if it takes a couple of PCs.
App a hard headed dwarf who is determined to see what is on the other side of the Silt Sea, or see the halfling village with his own eyes.
Find Stenial.
Tame a mek.
Meet a real Giant.
Meet a dragon.
Discover a race you didn't know existed.
Single handedly steal a wagon.
Set a goal/goals at the very edge of possibility or beyond, then accomplish them.
Quote from: staggerlee on November 11, 2008, 12:56:20 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 11, 2008, 12:04:18 PM
I think that flavor characters are the best for low play times. The lifetime sid farmer, the veteran hunter, the eternal Bynner, the drunk, the beggar ... these would, to me, seem the be the least involved and yet most rewarding for minimal playtime.
Any suggestions for maintaining a sense of progression and significance for roles like that? Frankly they work fine if you're looking at a temporary dip in play times, but if it's a permanent matter those roles come out lacking.
Yeh, in this case, it would be a roleplay sense of progression, or a very wide-stretched sense of skill progression. I'm trying to think about what could be
created for these types of players, as far as organization or race or class or social position. Frankly .... wait.
- A League of Explorers. Scholar/rangers who are gone for long periods of times. Would need the ability to make ansi maps, which is actually a very easy thing to do OOCly and which I could write a how-to-on. Obviously, progression would be about creating maps, updating maps, and having fun traveling in shifting groups
- Mercenaries. Any sort of mercenary has a potential for progression and fun as soon as they log on. Mercenaries do not only go kill shit, they could be bodyguards and couriers and gatherers. Perhaps redefine the Byn to include these services, giving weekend warriors an established branch to be in. Progression would seem to be a hard beast here, but I think the jobs you were asked to take would help with that.
- Arena Warrior. These sorts of people would require a more active arena system, but should be able to serve the role both north and south. Combative progression would be notable over time.
I'm sur ethere are other ways, but I'm just blathering here.
Actually there were a couple really inspiring ideas in there. I may give one or two of them a shot here and see what I can do with the playtime I have... though it's going to have to be a slow and steady kind of affair, that's for sure.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on November 11, 2008, 02:33:34 PM
Also, if in theory there was some kind of system change that could be put into place to encourage many more players who only play 2 hours per week, how exactly would that benefit the playerbase as a whole? PCs who are never around can't contribute to plots much, they're impossible to form and continue relationships with, they can't lead, they can't be reliable minions, they can't be ongoing trade partners. At best they can provide an amusing interlude in a public place, if the player is skilled enough (most aren't).
It's hard to argue that you're wrong about this, but I think what qualifies as "low playtimes" is often much more than 2 hours per week.
I've seen a few situations where plots were developing so fast on a daily basis, that no one but the most active players had a chance of keeping up.
There may be no good fix beyond just trying to at least consider people with different play habits. I can relate to how staggerlee is feeling, though.
I think all you could do is play a side role for low playtimes. I know what it feels like, plenty of time to play now, but won't have enough later on.
I'd say the best thing is anything that doesn't require a lot of skill. Or something which could get you killed easily. Maybe a casual pickpocket, a highway robber, a dwarf assassin whose focus is to assassinate templars/gickers. Or you could just be a social character, like a merchant and such. Hang around taverns for a short while, and trade between cities.
You could be a socially awkward guy who sits in the corners of taverns wearing a hood, only giving a single-syllable response to people. Or play a krath-struck character (better yet, a pickpocket pretending to be krath-struck in taverns). Something that would make you a social outcast, regardless of where you came from.
Play a mentor. Special-app for social connections and the ability to use previously gleaned knowledge, and be the old man who's been a Bynner all his life and who the Sarges and Lieutenants come to for advice.
Quote from: SMuz on November 11, 2008, 09:29:21 PM
You could be a really cool ranger hero dude looking for hobbits guy who sits in the corners of taverns wearing a hood, only giving a single-syllable response to people.
I couldn't resist, sorry.
I really like the suggestions in this thread; though I have a lot of time to play now I'm anticipating having a lot less in a few months and was thinking of how to find away to still have a good time with the game.
I'd really enjoy my offpeak playtime if there were more jobs to do than bust 'sid and gather salt. Something I could do and not leave the city and die. It would be nice.
I don't know about jobs to do, but speaking as someone who mainly plays offpeak now and has been for a couple of months now, counterintuitively I find more activity in the obvious PC activity places during off-peak times than during peak ones.
If you're really bored, you can almost always get out there and stir up something. People are infinitely more responsive when someone else is providing them an opportunity for fun than they are when you're just bar-sitting with them.
It strikes me that if you are inclined to, you could play one of those crafters, too, if you you are inclined to do a job in the city. It'll take a while to be a master, of course, but hey, it's a long-life, low-risk job, and you're perfectly capable of being able to be social...nobody says you even have to become a master.
Echoing what's been said in this thread, I find that indy-type characters are pretty well-suited for low or sporadic playtimes. Vagrants, wanderers, dune traders, explorers... characters along those lines have a built-in reason for disappearing for long stretches of time. When you do have time to log in and visit a center of civilization, network aggressively with the PCs who are there. Make friends and contacts, set up deals, get in a barfight or two, then ride off into the sunset for a few weeks or months.
People won't make a fuss if they don't see you for a while, but the longer-lived PCs will remember you when you show up again. So even with low playtimes, you can still build relationships and get involved in plots over time.
Yes, I endorse every thing that's been said here.
For me having a goal is what has kept my PC away from storage. Progress towards it has been painfully slow, as I log in regularly, but in bite sized portions, but inch by inch I am getting there.
And low log in hours generally means a long life which is always good for RP.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 11, 2008, 11:57:15 PM
It strikes me that if you are inclined to, you could play one of those crafters, too, if you you are inclined to do a job in the city. It'll take a while to be a master, of course, but hey, it's a long-life, low-risk job, and you're perfectly capable of being able to be social...nobody says you even have to become a master.
Do you think it's really acceptable to be a house crafter as someone who logs in 5-10 hours per week? Or would that cause too much hassle for most merchant houses?
Gimf's comment that
QuotePCs who are never around can't contribute to plots much, they're impossible to form and continue relationships with, they can't lead, they can't be reliable minions, they can't be ongoing trade partners. At best they can provide an amusing interlude in a public place, if the player is skilled enough (most aren't)
really, really discourages me since I'm someone who only has 5-10 hours for mudding per week but I'd like to be in a clan.
Quote from: garbanzo on November 13, 2008, 10:46:26 PM
Gimf's comment...really, really discourages me since I'm someone who only has 5-10 hours for mudding per week but I'd like to be in a clan.
Don't over-interpret what I'm saying. When I say "PCs that are never around" I mean
PCs that are never around. Once upon a time I had one of brytta's PCs under me as a minion in my clan, and the PC was delightfully roleplayed and fun and contributed, and I think he was only playing about 4 to 6 hours per week at the time. The keys are to play in a consistent time slot, play regularly (one hour every day is better than five hours on one day), and be proactive (reach out to the clannies yourself, don't wait for them to do it).
Quote from: garbanzo on November 13, 2008, 10:46:26 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 11, 2008, 11:57:15 PM
It strikes me that if you are inclined to, you could play one of those crafters, too, if you you are inclined to do a job in the city. It'll take a while to be a master, of course, but hey, it's a long-life, low-risk job, and you're perfectly capable of being able to be social...nobody says you even have to become a master.
Do you think it's really acceptable to be a house crafter as someone who logs in 5-10 hours per week? Or would that cause too much hassle for most merchant houses?
I don't know why.
Having a clan may actually help. It gives you access to an ooc forum where you can arrange playtimes, stay on top of rumours and communicate with clannies.
I'm convinced that this is the reason we have a pick-pocket guild.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 14, 2008, 12:07:24 AM
Quote from: garbanzo on November 13, 2008, 10:46:26 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on November 11, 2008, 11:57:15 PM
It strikes me that if you are inclined to, you could play one of those crafters, too, if you you are inclined to do a job in the city. It'll take a while to be a master, of course, but hey, it's a long-life, low-risk job, and you're perfectly capable of being able to be social...nobody says you even have to become a master.
Do you think it's really acceptable to be a house crafter as someone who logs in 5-10 hours per week? Or would that cause too much hassle for most merchant houses?
I don't know why.
I am with 7 and staggerlee on this...
Agent Gizmoduck tells crafter Phenton to keep the hunters with a steady supply of arrows, and in his spare time, worth with crafter Launchpad so that he can learn a bit about weapons skills.
Phenton logs in when he can, makes 5-10 arrows, and puts them in the guard shack.
Try to find Launchpad when he is done... if he's not there, he contacts Agent Gizmoduck to see if he has any other assignments for him.
If he's not around, Phenton makes a few more arrows, then heads over to the tavern to meet and greet.
Perfect arrangement in my opinion.
FW. I want you to know that the Darkwing Duck reference made my day.
Low play hours only means that your character will take longer in Real Time hours to become what a twinker would deem as "skilled". Be it a crafter, or a pickpocket, or just the local drunk that ALWAYS has a story about their uncle Rochester. If you think your concept would not be flushed out as well because of low play times, come up with one that would. Ask players, ask Helpers, we all would have an idea I'm sure.
Quote from: Riev on November 14, 2008, 10:40:57 AM
FW. I want you to know that the Darkwing Duck reference made my day.
I must be a little older... I was thinking Ducktales, but I will take a spinoff, too!
God, I miss my old cartoons.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on November 15, 2008, 12:26:18 AM
Quote from: Riev on November 14, 2008, 10:40:57 AM
FW. I want you to know that the Darkwing Duck reference made my day.
I must be a little older... I was thinking Ducktales, but I will take a spinoff, too!
God, I miss my old cartoons.
IIRC Darkwing Duck predates Ducktales. That was defiantly a Ducktales reference though.
Darkwing duck is way better than Ducktales though, sorry FW.
:shakes his head sadly
I totally failed on the Ducktales part. I just saw Launchpad and the name Phenton and assumed.
Oh man Darkwing Duck pretty much kicks all your asses.
Quote from: fourTwenty on November 15, 2008, 12:53:24 AM
Darkwing Duck is way better than Ducktales though, sorry FW.
QFT.
Hey... I loved DWD too... I only meant that I was thinking DuckTales. (i watched it for years before DWD came out)
4:20-- DT:1987 DWD:1991
Hehe, and I can still sing both theme songs, lol.
<3 Launchpad