Have we been notified about this? Why was there a change?
As far as I can tell, barrier is the same for me.
What change?
That barrier no longer stays erect during combat. That's a serious performance issue.
Quote from: Sephiroto on October 21, 2008, 01:44:28 AM
That barrier no longer stays erect during combat. That's a serious performance issue.
Heh. Heh heh. Heh heh heh.
that's a pretty big change, if that's the case.
Quote from: Agent_137 on October 21, 2008, 02:55:03 AM
that's a pretty big change, if that's the case.
I agree. It's a pretty drastic change, at that. I could understand making it harder for less experienced barrier-users to keep it up in combat but I think folks who've had an equal exposure and use of combat and barrier-use should be able to hold it. Maybe have it sap'ing stun quicker, because of the effort to keep it up.
Contact doesn't stay ere-- dangit, contacted during combat, either. Dunno if that's a change or not.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on October 21, 2008, 08:54:09 AM
Contact doesn't stay ere-- dangit, contacted during combat, either. Dunnno if that's a change or not.
Pretty sure it's always been like that.
At least as long as I have been playing.
I'm informed that this was a bug fix.
Nyr is correct. Contact has always broken during combat; barrier was merely conformed to the existing standard. The use of psionics is a complex task requiring more focus than your average person can give under the kind of duress that combat represents.
I don't know that I agree with that kind of change though, for certain reasons I won't go into on the GDB.
It makes certain situations much, much more perilous, and shafts certain types of characters even further on the ultimate power scale.
Shadow is right.
Agree with shadow and 7DV. Bugfix or not, there's balance to be considered.
If I'm not mistaken, Barrier is a passive skill, not active. The maximum reduction in stun plus the ticking damage to stun should be enough, but my matter of opinion sometimes differs with the coders.
The bad thing about this is that the recent change opens doors for whole new levels of badness for certain characters to take advantage of others who before would have been able to protect themselves.
Finally, if this is a bug fix why didn't anyone announce it officially like they do when they alter other skills? Has the staff been altering my skills or stats or even taking my karma and giving it back without telling me about it too? What happened to protocol?
Oops...we had an unscheduled maintenance period yesterday that pushed the change to live before we announced it.
Yes we did intend this change to happen, and yes it is working as intended.
Rather than being always dropped in combat, barrier loss could be an outcome of, for instance:
- reel
- being successfully bashed/charged
- an attacker landing a hard blow
Seems plausible that grey-bearded, veteran-of-five-wars Lieutenant Farrel could hold a barrier while laconically fending off a left-handed youngster with a dull stick. ;)
1. Due to a minor error, the bugfix went in a bit earlier than we thought. Those responsible have been sacked.
2. Because the bugfix went in early, the people who normally create the announcements didn't know about it. We sacked the announcers as well.
3. Play balance is the reason that contact and barrier break on combat. Those responsible for the bug that allowed barrier to remain active during combat have been sacked.
4. Barrier is not a passive skill. It does way too many things on way too many levels for it to be a passive skill. Those responsible for spreading the myth that barrier is a passive skill have been sacked.
5. The producers of the Armageddon game wish it to be known that they have been sacked, and Armageddon 2.0 will now be coded by a team of 40 Mexican Llamas with degrees in Computer Science. Just today, they showcased combat, which consists mostly of a command "spit cud."
Thank you.
Thanks.
Does this also mean that all other psionic abilities can not be used while in combat? If barrier drops in combat then I believe the answer to that should be "yes."
Quote5. The producers of the Armageddon game wish it to be known that they have been sacked, and Armageddon 2.0 will now be coded by a team of 40 Mexican Llamas with degrees in Computer Science. Just today, they showcased combat, which consists mostly of a command "spit cud."
Lol. It's a bug fix. It has already been decided on and regulated by the staff.
Just roll with the changes. It's like any other game change that happens.
Correction: it's like any
potentially threatening change that happens. There's always over-reaction or complaint.
I think it adds a more balance to the game. Thank you.
Now those little pesky merchants can't way all their friends while I am waylaying them.
Quote from: Delstro on October 21, 2008, 02:44:51 PM
I think it adds a more balance to the game. Thank you.
Now those little pesky merchants can't way all their friends while I am waylaying them.
That was already in game. You have misunderstood the nature of the bugfix.
Whoops.
Quote from: a strange shadow on October 21, 2008, 12:41:18 PM
I don't know that I agree with that kind of change though, for certain reasons I won't go into on the GDB.
It makes certain situations much, much more perilous, and shafts certain types of characters even further on the ultimate power scale.
I completely agree. Not that it's going to change anything.
Thanks for giving [class] an even larger advantage than they already had. I'm not much bothered by it, being that its one of my favorite classes. ;D
..wow.
I've hoped for this for as long as I can remember.
Now I can roll another <censored>.
Oldschool you couldn't walk from room to room with contact up.
I liked that.
Bug fixes like this can go on into eternity.
Man, I really dislike this "bugfix" Barrier may be a useful skill for certain things, but it was already pretty weak. Specialy against certain things I will not mention. Now, Bleh, pretty much useless...AGAIN.
BOOO!
HISSS!
Mua-ha-ha-ha-ha-hah!
So y'all are saying that Buffer Barrier was the only thing holding back a mutiny of preverts?
Quote from: X-D on October 21, 2008, 08:50:05 PM
Man, I really dislike this "bugfix" Barrier may be a useful skill for certain things, but it was already pretty weak. Specialy against certain things I will not mention. Now, Bleh, pretty much useless...AGAIN.
BOOO!
HISSS!
Roll up <class> and abuse the shit out of this! It's the only solution!
::)
I'm kidding. Mostly.
???
All I can say is, a couple already very powerful things just became many times more powerful...like that was needed. And things that were already hard enough to do, like keep your sdesc hidden, is now, for all intents and purposes impossible.
I love these "bugfixes" (cures) That are worse then the disease.
Blah again.
Makes me wonder why they just do not remove the skill altogether. I mean come on, it has never been strong enough to block anything but newbie contact, any 5 day social PC can break the barrier of a 150day anti-social PC in a couple tries.
No, really, I think it is completly silly that you can break somebodies barrier by slapping them. punching, whatever. And I totally disagree that it is like contact in use. Contact requires concentration, sure, you are contacting the mind of another from who knows what distance, Like using a bow.
Barrier is closing a door and leaning against it. Contact is not something you try to hold every waking moment, Barrier is, and if you have gained the ability to keep your barrier up from opening your eyes to closing them again then it should be automatic, even through combat.
QuotePlay balance is the reason that contact and barrier break on combat. Those responsible for the bug that allowed barrier to remain active during combat have been sacked.
I'm trying to think of a situation where we needed more weight on the side of this bug fix than the other side, but I can't. Maybe I've either played this game too much, or too little.
Quote from: X-D on October 22, 2008, 12:37:00 AM
All I can say is, a couple already very powerful things just became many times more powerful...like that was needed. And things that were already hard enough to do, like keep your sdesc hidden, is now, for all intents and purposes impossible.
I love these "bugfixes" (cures) That are worse then the disease.
Blah again.
Makes me wonder why they just do not remove the skill altogether. I mean come on, it has never been strong enough to block anything but newbie contact, any 5 day social PC can break the barrier of a 150day anti-social PC in a couple tries.
No, really, I think it is completly silly that you can break somebodies barrier by slapping them. punching, whatever. And I totally disagree that it is like contact in use. Contact requires concentration, sure, you are contacting the mind of another from who knows what distance, Like using a bow.
Barrier is closing a door and leaning against it. Contact is not something you try to hold every waking moment, Barrier is, and if you have gained the ability to keep your barrier up from opening your eyes to closing them again then it should be automatic, even through combat.
The mentally leaning against a door analogy is how I've always seen barrier. Whereas with contact, it requires active concentration to reach out and find someone.
Oldschool barrier, once it was up, was up. Pow.
Then it was changed to drain stun.
Now it breaks in combat?
Gosh.
Yes I'm sure there are reasons behind it. I would hope other things get changed for balance.
I just don't agree that it was at all needed.
Where is the love for the mundanes and their skills and skill trees? Is it just easier to "fix" bugs?
Really, there never was a bug. It was just a conscious decision of the staff to change the skill, just as they changed it in the past. So to be more accurate, this was a "code change." The reason why I say this is because it's not like the staff were unaware of how the barrier skill worked. Something prompted it. Whatever it was, there was probably some logical reason (player complaints) for the change.
Me? I liked barrier how it was. You might as well make us stop scanning, watching, and listening during combat too if you're going to make our barrier break.
I think the previously existing penalties to barrier were more than enough.
I hate that my knee-jerk reaction was fear that someone would take Sephiroto's above suggestion seriously.
I'm in favor of retaining (or reverting back to) the old way barrier worked, i.e. it stayed up during combat.
There's some vital OOC reasoning behind it.
OOCLY, it'll be really lame/cheesy/easy for [edited by Nyr. Please do not post things that are not known via documentation, helpfiles, or that can be discovered in-character.]
Quote from: Incognito on October 22, 2008, 08:33:52 AM
I'm in favor of retaining (or reverting back to) the old way barrier worked, i.e. it stayed up during combat.
There's some vital OOC reasoning behind it.
OOCLY, it'll be really lame/cheesy/easy for [edited by Nyr. Please do not post things that are not known via documentation, helpfiles, or that can be discovered in-character.]
That's not an OOC workaround. The imms, by changing this, are contending that that
should work. If you don't want that to happen, avoid combat.
Quote from: Incognito on October 22, 2008, 08:33:52 AM
I'm in favor of retaining (or reverting back to) the old way barrier worked, i.e. it stayed up during combat.
There's some vital OOC reasoning behind it.
OOCLY, it'll be really lame/cheesy/easy for [edited by Nyr. Please do not post things that are not known via documentation, helpfiles, or that can be discovered in-character.]
[edited by Nyr -- see above]
...posts are about to reach a whole new level of fervor and frequency, aren't they?
Quote from: Tisiphone on October 22, 2008, 08:45:57 AM
...avoid combat.
I sometimes wish this was possible, but it isn't always the case for most.
As for the barrier skill I have no thoughts on the bug fix one way or the other. Time will tell the effects this has, and I trust that staff are monitering this.
Bushranger
Quote from: Sephiroto on October 22, 2008, 02:56:27 AM
Really, there never was a bug. It was just a conscious decision of the staff to change the skill, just as they changed it in the past. So to be more accurate, this was a "code change." The reason why I say this is because it's not like the staff were unaware of how the barrier skill worked. Something prompted it. Whatever it was, there was probably some logical reason (player complaints) for the change.
Me? I liked barrier how it was. You might as well make us stop scanning, watching, and listening during combat too if you're going to make our barrier break.
No, it was a bug. It was designed this way initially (to break on combat), but was not functioning this way. In fact, we've been discussing this very skill on the IDB (and still are), and weren't discussing this particular change to that skill at all. This discussion that we had prompted a look at the code surrounding the skill. The original coder that implemented it noticed that it was not functioning as intended, and made a change to reflect the way it was intended.
Back to that discussion I mentioned, though. There will likely be more changes to come to reflect that discussion, because we (like those of you that have posted here) are very much aware of things in the game that can become unbalanced or exploited. In fact, there were several other things that were discussed that have simply been accepted as "fact" (and rather detrimental to playability) that could possibly be changed as a result (unrelated to barrier).
I can't think of any time I've ever had barrier up while in combat. So this "change" (bugfix or conspiracy, whichever anyone wants to call it) doesn't affect me at all. I don't understand what the problem is, I don't understand the significance of [edited by Nyr], I'm blissfully ignorant of it, and hey - if my not knowing is why some of my characters were successfully assassinated, that's cool too!
Blissfully ignorant and glad of it Lizzie
Quote from: Nyr on October 22, 2008, 08:52:51 AM
No, it was a bug. It was designed this way initially (to break on combat), but was not functioning this way. In fact, we've been discussing this very skill on the IDB (and still are), and weren't discussing this particular change to that skill at all. This discussion that we had prompted a look at the code surrounding the skill. The original coder that implemented it noticed that it was not functioning as intended, and made a change to reflect the way it was intended.
Back to that discussion I mentioned, though. There will likely be more changes to come to reflect that discussion, because we (like those of you that have posted here) are very much aware of things in the game that can become unbalanced or exploited. In fact, there were several other things that were discussed that have simply been accepted as "fact" (and rather detrimental to playability) that could possibly be changed as a result (unrelated to barrier).
Thanks for that Nyr. I, and i think many others, are satisfied as long as you folks are having a deep discussion over the issue. For my part, i was only upset that such a sweeping change was simply accepted as the "way things are." But if that's not the case, then I have faith in the collective opinions of the IMMs.
Quote from: Tisiphone on October 22, 2008, 08:45:57 AM
Quote from: Incognito on October 22, 2008, 08:33:52 AM
I'm in favor of retaining (or reverting back to) the old way barrier worked, i.e. it stayed up during combat.
There's some vital OOC reasoning behind it.
OOCLY, it'll be really lame/cheesy/easy for [edited by Nyr. Please do not post things that are not known via documentation, helpfiles, or that can be discovered in-character.]
That's not an OOC workaround. The imms, by changing this, are contending that that should work. If you don't want that to happen, avoid combat.
The problem with this : Anyone can just initiate combat (even if it's momentarily), have their target's barrier fall as a result, and then disengage/flee, so that [edited by Nyr. Please do not post things that are not known via documentation, helpfiles, or that can be discovered in-character.]
Like NoteWorthyFellow said : This just made me realise [edited by Nyr]
There are (censored) that depend on [edited by Nyr]
Didn't realize until a closer look at this thread, but there were some revelations here that should not be publicized. I've informed the posters that I've edited their posts and the reason why. Please do not post things that are not known via documentation, helpfiles, or that can be discovered in-character.
omg i broke teh thread with mah bliss-full ignance so sorry :(
Quote from: Sephiroto on October 22, 2008, 02:56:27 AM
Really, there never was a bug. It was just a conscious decision of the staff to change the skill, just as they changed it in the past. So to be more accurate, this was a "code change." The reason why I say this is because it's not like the staff were unaware of how the barrier skill worked. Something prompted it. Whatever it was, there was probably some logical reason (player complaints) for the change.
Me? I liked barrier how it was. You might as well make us stop scanning, watching, and listening during combat too if you're going to make our barrier break.
I feel the same way
I've always sort of wondered why barrier didn't drop but contact does. I'm still not too happy with it for various reasons that other folks aren't happy with it, but if other stuff surrounding the nonhappy reasons gets looked at, I suppose I'm cool with it.
Not that it would probably matter so much if I wasn't ;)
Quote from: Sephiroto on October 21, 2008, 01:00:06 PM
If I'm not mistaken, Barrier is a passive skill, not active.
Quote from: Nusku on October 21, 2008, 01:16:44 PM
4. Barrier is not a passive skill. It does way too many things on way too many levels for it to be a passive skill.
That's not what the help file says:
QuotePsi Barrier (Communication)
The barrier command will attempt to erect a mental barrier around your character's mind, shielding it from most psionic interference. The duration of a direct mental barrier is dependent upon your character's wisdom attribute and skill proficiency. As with all sustained psionic powers, the cease command will lower the mental barrier.
Syntax:
barrier
Note:
Psionic barrier is affected by your nosave setting. If you have erected
a mental barrier but have nosave on, your barrier will be automatically
lowered.
A thorough understanding of this passive defensive technique is
essential before learning about any aggressive defensive techniques.
I believe Nusku is using the term "passive skill" as a way to refer to its mechanics. The term "passive" in the help files is used in a different context, to refer to practical use of the skill in a more colorful, ic sort of sense. Its parallel to the world aggressive later should clarify its meaning.
I'm pretty sure that Nusku wasn't refering to passive as the opposite of aggressive, but that he was referring to passive as the opposite of channelled.
Contextualize! Sheesh, you're a smart guy. :)
Disclaimer: Staggerlee has no opinion on the changes to Barrier. There are probably drawbacks either way.
Touche... it's early. ;)
Hopefully awake soon,
FW
Quote from: staggerlee on October 22, 2008, 11:07:42 AMI'm pretty sure that Nusku wasn't refering to passive as the opposite of aggressive, but that he was referring to passive as the opposite of channelled.
Couldn't have said it better myself, Staggerlee. Barrier appears in your "stat" list and continuously drains your stun, which classifies it as a channeled ability. The continued stun drain should be everyone's clue that there's continued focus required to maintain the skill.
Quote from: SephirotoYou might as well make us stop scanning, watching, and listening during combat too
I'm surprised they don't already. You're right, let's be consistent and drop those too.
That's not even funny, man.
I did always find it odd that I could watch/scan/listen while fighting off a pack of gortok, but could not watch/scan/listen while sitting down to catch my breath.
Anyway as for barrier, I wonder just how bad the exploit everyone seems to know about (and that Nyr keeps editing away when they post it) could be abused, or how often. Hopefully staff will consider that.
I'm pretty sure they probably already have, or at least started to.
EDIT: Actually if memory serves, you can listen sitting down ... still can't scan/watch I believe.
Quote from: Nusku on October 22, 2008, 11:19:06 AMQuote from: staggerlee on October 22, 2008, 11:07:42 AMI'm pretty sure that Nusku wasn't refering to passive as the opposite of aggressive, but that he was referring to passive as the opposite of channelled.
Couldn't have said it better myself, Staggerlee. Barrier appears in your "stat" list and continuously drains your stun, which classifies it as a channeled ability. The continued stun drain should be everyone's clue that there's continued focus required to maintain the skill.
What about a continued focus required to maintain specific, mostly protective, non-mundane, non-psionic abilities which appear in your stat list? If consistency is the goal, let's have those channeled abilities drain the appropriate stat at a steady level as well.
No more beefing up all your buddies, either. It requires a direct ability with the appropriate skill.
Quote from: a strange shadow on October 22, 2008, 11:21:39 AM
That's not even funny, man.
I'm not joking. You want to be simultaneously completely aware of your surroundings and capable of focusing on defending your life from someone determined to bash your head in? It would be a pretty rare person that's that good at multitasking. Would there have to be a lot of discussion on the potential tradeoffs that would have to be involved in making this kind of change? Yes, there would. But the reality of the situation is that there are a lot of skills and effects that are not well-balanced. You might enjoy having a character that's able to take advantage of some of the imbalances, but that's really not the same as being able to objectively see where things are a bit wonky, as it were. Some of those imbalances exist for years and years, until someone finally comes along and says, "Oh, hey, that's not right." and gets around to actually tweaking it.
And then the screaming and the crying and the angry, angry postings happen, and all kinds of people get terribly worked up about theoretical scenarios that they've never been involved in and never will get into and the world will come to an end and it's ALL GONE WRONG... and two months later absolutely nothing has changed for the worse and it's business as usual until the next tweak comes along.
Quote from: a strange shadow on October 22, 2008, 11:55:21 AMWhat about a continued focus required to maintain specific, mostly protective, non-mundane, non-psionic abilities which appear in your stat list? If consistency is the goal, let's have those channeled abilities drain the appropriate stat at a steady level as well.
Do said abilities currently drain a stat or do they work off of a different cost mechanic?
It has never, ever made sense to me why you can't watch a direction while sitting down (if we're going to go with realism, I have never sat in a room where I could -not- position myself to watch out the door), but you can watch while in the middle of combat. Or scan, or listen, for that matter.
It only makes sense if you're crazy good at being able to keep an eye on your surroundings. Similarly, I don't see why it would be impossible to hold up a barrier or contact if you're crazy good at those skills, too, to the point where they should be second nature to you.
They drain a specific cost mechanic, and then have no further drain, just as barrier used to work. :)
Barrier was then modified to have a continual stun drain.
My point isn't to be argumentative. It is a valid observation, I think.
I would hesitate to further modify mundanes until a hard look is taken at the often overpowered abilities non-mundanes possess. Armageddon is not about balance, but should take into consideration player cooperation and mutual fun. When mundane characters feel useless in comparison to a non-mundane who has put in a fraction of the time they have, something is wrong.
Quote from: musashi on October 22, 2008, 11:22:27 AM
EDIT: Actually if memory serves, you can listen sitting down ... still can't scan/watch I believe.
At the risk of derailing, I have always found it pretty silly that you can't sit down while watching in a direction, as well. Scan is a bit more forgivable, if you picture scan as constantly and continually scanning and checking your surroundings. That sounds a lot more active to me than watching, which I (and I think most of humanity) can do a pretty decent job of while sitting on my ass.
I'm ambivalent about the changes to barrier, mostly.
I don't think that the tactic being referred to as an "exploit" is an exploit, for one. In my mind, "exploit" is a term that means abusing bugs in the code to gain a favourable advantage for your character or using the code in ways that staff members have said is a poor use of coded skills (ala backstab; hide; backstab; hide; backstab). There is a difference between "exploit" and "strategy."
That being said, I agree wholeheartedly with X-D in regards to making it even harder to conceal your identity in the wilderness or in raiding scenarios. Like there wasn't enough discouragement in that area already. Psionics code and the weakness of barrier are the biggest enemies of concealing your sdesc through mundane means, and it just got worse.
I can't help but wonder if we'd see fewer PKs-for-loot and fewer raiders who hang out with invisibility-granting magickers if the mundane methods of concealing your sdesc were less useless.
Quote from: Nusku on October 22, 2008, 11:19:06 AM
Quote from: SephirotoYou might as well make us stop scanning, watching, and listening during combat too
I'm surprised they don't already. You're right, let's be consistent and drop those too.
Allow watching your opponent during combat and remove the delay from, "listen status," as well. Then I'll be just chipper.
Quote from: a strange shadow on October 22, 2008, 12:10:28 PM
I would hesitate to further modify mundanes until a hard look is taken at the often overpowered abilities non-mundanes possess. Armageddon is not about balance, but should take into consideration player cooperation and mutual fun. When mundane characters feel useless in comparison to a non-mundane who has put in a fraction of the time they have, something is wrong.
I think this is a valid concern. I will note that these other areas (particularly non-mundane skills or applications)
are being evaluated and modified with some consistency and with a logic and thoughtfulness that I find reassuring.
Quote from: Nusku on October 22, 2008, 11:56:39 AMAnd then the screaming and the crying and the angry, angry postings happen, and all kinds of people get terribly worked up about theoretical scenarios that they've never been involved in and never will get into and the world will come to an end and it's ALL GONE WRONG... and two months later absolutely nothing has changed for the worse and it's business as usual until the next tweak comes along.
Just to note, I think we've been fairly reasonable, and I haven't seen any screaming or crying. We are (or at least I am) only concerned about a percieved trend that's been ongoing for some time, and opening discourse about the matter, not acting childish as this post implies. Please treat our opinions with mutual respect.
I have stated elsewhere that I have confidence balance is being considered, and am putting in my two cents. Can I do that? Thanks. :)
Quote from: Nusku on October 22, 2008, 11:56:39 AM
And then the screaming and the crying and the angry, angry postings happen, and all kinds of people get terribly worked up about theoretical scenarios that they've never been involved in and never will get into and the world will come to an end and it's ALL GONE WRONG... and two months later absolutely nothing has changed for the worse and it's business as usual until the next tweak comes along.
This is an unfair characterization of legitimate complaints. When reel went in, we complained that "reel lock" would cause character death; and guess what, it does. When the change/fix to parry went in, we complained that certain character classes would have a much harder time in combat; and from what I've heard, they do. The mere fact that we stop talking about it, or that players continue to play, doesn't mean that a change isn't "for the worse" in the minds of many.
Quote from: Tzurahro on October 22, 2008, 12:19:07 PM
Quote from: a strange shadow on October 22, 2008, 12:10:28 PM
I would hesitate to further modify mundanes until a hard look is taken at the often overpowered abilities non-mundanes possess. Armageddon is not about balance, but should take into consideration player cooperation and mutual fun. When mundane characters feel useless in comparison to a non-mundane who has put in a fraction of the time they have, something is wrong.
I think this is a valid concern. I will note that these other areas (particularly non-mundane skills or applications) are being evaluated and modified with some consistency and with a logic and thoughtfulness that I find reassuring.
From you, this is reassuring to me. However, it doesn't seem to address the bolded portion above. Mundanes actually need some love, if they are going to be useful and chosen for tasks that non-mundanes are more frequently chosen for now. Balancing and nerfing isn't the same thing as improving.
Quote from: Fathi on October 22, 2008, 12:13:48 PMstuff
To continue the side-derail, with the way listen and scan are represented at the moment, they would make more sense as toggled status, not delay-causing one-shots. If that were the case, I would be okay with them having a
chance to "toggle off", based on skill, in the heat of combat.
Quote from: a strange shadow on October 22, 2008, 12:10:28 PM
They drain a specific cost mechanic, and then have no further drain, just as barrier used to work. :)
Barrier was then modified to have a continual stun drain.
Barrier has always had a continual stun drain. At the very least, it has been that way since 1993, which is as far back as I can get anyone to remember. I'm impressed, because I don't remember 1993 very well at all, but that's neither here nor there. In fact, a few years ago (three, maybe four) the drain on barrier and contact was so heavy that you couldn't keep them up for very long without passing out, even if you were really good at them. And before that, contact broke when you moved. And before that, barrier was a psionicist-only skill. We can jump into the way-back machine and put it all back to the way it was, or we can keep moving forward and change things for the better like we have been.
The skills you are thinking of have never had any continuous drain. They work off of a completely different mechanic.
Quote from: Shiroi TsukiSimilarly, I don't see why it would be impossible to hold up a barrier or contact if you're crazy good at those skills
It's probably safe to say that a non-psionicist will never be "crazy good" at psionic talents.
I distinctly remember barrier having no steady drain, because I used it often with my third character.
I started playing in, I believe, 2001.
I appreciate the intent of trying to change the game for the better, but I would rather the "balancing act" started with other skills and character classes rather than with things that affect, and in many cases further weaken, mundane characters.
I would rather not have to ask for the return of the 8 karma I gave up just so I can "keep up with the Amoses".
Looks to me like barrier was changed to continually drain stun in 2005: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,15011.0.html
Quote from: Nusku on October 22, 2008, 12:32:06 PM
Quote from: Shiroi TsukiSimilarly, I don't see why it would be impossible to hold up a barrier or contact if you're crazy good at those skills
It's probably safe to say that a non-psionicist will never be "crazy good" at psionic talents.
Relatively crazy good, then. Or maybe it should be the other way around - if you're crazy good at combat, why should you not be able to partition your attention just a little to be able to do other things during combat?
Regardless, my point is that instead of things being impossible to everyone certain things should just be harder to attain. While still being attainable. In general, and not just regarding barrier.
Quote from: Shiroi Tsuki on October 22, 2008, 12:40:30 PM
Regardless, my point is that instead of things being impossible to everyone certain things should just be harder to attain. While still being attainable. In general, and not just regarding barrier.
This.
Quote from: Nyr on October 22, 2008, 08:52:51 AM
...There will likely be more changes to come to reflect that discussion, because we (like those of you that have posted here) are very much aware of things in the game that can become unbalanced or exploited. In fact, there were several other things that were discussed that have simply been accepted as "fact" (and rather detrimental to playability) that could possibly be changed as a result (unrelated to barrier).
It's not out of the question that things still won't be altered to take into account suggestions here, because suggestions have been the root of some changes made in the past. I've seen some staff-side discussion on the game port even today about it. As best I can tell, the bug-fix has been live since the last maintenance (which was either early yesterday or Monday, I forget). I understand that people are concerned about feature creeping adversely affecting balance and gameplay between mundane characters and their non-mundane counterparts, and I have duly noted it in the thread that the staff is using and has previously been using to discuss this--but it
has only been two days.
As a side note, I checked the 2005 update on the IDB just to be sure, because I remembered something about it.
Stun drains
existed, but were not standardized before that. The update standardized them, thus explaining different experiences for it prior to that.
My suggestion:
I'm gathering that, if there is a stun drain attached to it, that means it requires conscious will and concentration to keep it active. This makes sense, and it also makes sense that someone who isn't as good at either combat or whatever act requires that concentration would have to lose said concentration when in the act of something as frantic as combat.
But, perhaps at very high levels of both barrier and contact skill, the user has a chance to maintain concentration during combat? Such things would have to be pretty much second nature to the user by that time, but I don't think it's too far-fetched that such frequently used skills could become that ingrained. And it wouldn't necessarily be a guarantee that barrier or contact will remain active; perhaps there would be a roll at the start of combat against the user's barrier or contact skill to see if it's maintained, then each successful hit landed on the user of barrier or contact would have a chance to interrupt it, a separate roll that depends on both the barrier or contact skill and the severity of the hit.
Nyr, et al,
I think we may be getting our terminology confused.
There is a difference between stun cost, max stun drain, and consistant stun drain. I think there should be max mana or mana drain costs for specific spells as well as initial mana costs, just as there are psionic max drains, psionic drains, and initial psionic drains. I won't go into further detail than that, the applications should be obvious to staff in the know.
Quote from: a strange shadow on October 22, 2008, 02:17:17 PM
Nyr, et al,
I think we may be getting our terminology confused.
There is a difference between stun cost, max stun drain, and consistant stun drain. I think there should be max mana or mana drain costs for specific spells as well as initial mana costs, just as there are psionic max drains, psionic drains, and initial psionic drains. I won't go into further detail than that, the applications should be obvious to staff in the know.
I disagree with this. Spells with durations (defensive spells, "buffs" or "debuffs," etc.) are different from maintained psionic abilities like barrier. Now, if you're willing to change a few of these to "maintained" spells that won't go away until the caster dismisses them, then I'm willing to listen, but otherwise I see this only as unnecessarily lowering a mage's maximum mana (or imposing a constant mana drain for spells that are necessary for survival in a combat situation in ways that barrier is not).
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on October 22, 2008, 02:26:38 PMNow, if you're willing to change a few of these to "maintained" spells that won't go away until the caster dismisses them, then I'm willing to listen
That's exactly what I mean. I forgot to clarify that, apologies.
Quote from: a strange shadow on October 22, 2008, 02:27:49 PM
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on October 22, 2008, 02:26:38 PMNow, if you're willing to change a few of these to "maintained" spells that won't go away until the caster dismisses them, then I'm willing to listen
That's exactly what I mean. I forgot to clarify that, apologies.
I can get behind an idea like this, but then I start to wonder about the magick theory of Zalanthas and whether it makes sense with the way spells and mana work. I can't really say much more without crossing into IC-land, though. Maybe I can say that I don't think mana works the same way stun does, but that's about all. Again, I'm not sure, though, and a staff member could definitely answer better than I ever could.
If a hit to you affects your stun, then sure it'd make sense for barrier to be pulled down. So in combat, if you're fighting something or someone, and they hit you, but their hits are -not- causing stun damage, then you should be able to maintain your barrier. If their hits -are- causing stun damage, then sure I can see how it makes excellent sense for you to lose control of your barrier.
Other things that could affect it is your own level of skill with the barrier skill - if you're good enough with the Way that you've already branched "expel" (which is a skill that everyone can get eventually and was announced on the GDB and is in the help files so its existence isn't undocumented or secret or taboo to mention), then you are probably good enough with barrier that it'll take a pretty unpleasant smack to break the barrier.
Perhaps -any- direct hit to the head, causing any damage at all whether HPs or stun, would break the barrier.
Perhaps -only- direct hits to the head would break barrier, and a bad hit to the leg wouldn't. Perhaps only direct hits to the head, -plus- any hit that causes you to reel, would break it.
There are lots of possible alternatives to an automatic "the gimpka rat hits you and misses" barrier break in combat.
Quote from: Lizzie on October 22, 2008, 02:38:02 PM
If a hit to you affects your stun, then sure it'd make sense for barrier to be pulled down. So in combat, if you're fighting something or someone, and they hit you, but their hits are -not- causing stun damage, then you should be able to maintain your barrier. If their hits -are- causing stun damage, then sure I can see how it makes excellent sense for you to lose control of your barrier.
Other things that could affect it is your own level of skill with the barrier skill - if you're good enough with the Way that you've already branched "expel" (which is a skill that everyone can get eventually and was announced on the GDB and is in the help files so its existence isn't undocumented or secret or taboo to mention), then you are probably good enough with barrier that it'll take a pretty unpleasant smack to break the barrier.
Perhaps -any- direct hit to the head, causing any damage at all whether HPs or stun, would break the barrier.
Perhaps -only- direct hits to the head would break barrier, and a bad hit to the leg wouldn't. Perhaps only direct hits to the head, -plus- any hit that causes you to reel, would break it.
There are lots of possible alternatives to an automatic "the gimpka rat hits you and misses" barrier break in combat.
Like this:
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on October 22, 2008, 01:16:18 PM
My suggestion:
I'm gathering that, if there is a stun drain attached to it, that means it requires conscious will and concentration to keep it active. This makes sense, and it also makes sense that someone who isn't as good at either combat or whatever act requires that concentration would have to lose said concentration when in the act of something as frantic as combat.
But, perhaps at very high levels of both barrier and contact skill, the user has a chance to maintain concentration during combat? Such things would have to be pretty much second nature to the user by that time, but I don't think it's too far-fetched that such frequently used skills could become that ingrained. And it wouldn't necessarily be a guarantee that barrier or contact will remain active; perhaps there would be a roll at the start of combat against the user's barrier or contact skill to see if it's maintained, then each successful hit landed on the user of barrier or contact would have a chance to interrupt it, a separate roll that depends on both the barrier or contact skill and the severity of the hit.
Quote from: a strange shadow on October 22, 2008, 02:17:17 PM
Nyr, et al,
I think we may be getting our terminology confused.
There is a difference between stun cost, max stun drain, and consistant stun drain. I think there should be max mana or mana drain costs for specific spells as well as initial mana costs, just as there are psionic max drains, psionic drains, and initial psionic drains. I won't go into further detail than that, the applications should be obvious to staff in the know.
The thought has crossed the collective staff consciousness before. Some applications of that principle are already being undertaken; they're not ready for deployment yet, but you might see a few things shape up along these lines. It might end up being a proof of concept for future changes along those lines, it might end up being the Worst Idea Evar.
Personally, I like the idea of channeled spells. There are a few other really neat spell concepts that we don't use that I think it would be fun to include, but we're working with pretty archaic code in a lot of cases. DIKU has some limitations, which means there are some things that we're probably not going to see effectively implemented until Arm 2.0. Also, while Arm 1 provides us with a nice testbed for some proof of concept things, all the effort we put into Arm 1 is effort we're not putting into Arm 2.0.
Is it worth it to keep making changes to the current game? I think so, but in many cases we're running up against the design vs. evolution barrier. So many parts of the game have simply evolved past their initial design constraints that the only way to corral everything is to do a complete overhaul and come up with a new design that incorporates the features that you want. Coming up with that level of redesign is impractical for Arm 1, so the best we can do is to keep tweaking things to provide us with both the level of gameplay we want and the appropriate insights into how things should be designed in the next game.
Since the original topic of discussion is barrier, I'll point out that it's a great example of something that was allowed to run far, far beyond its initial design constraints. It has been used as a band-aid to slap on top of all kinds of things that it really never should have. It became the cure to far too many ills, and now it has evolved into the problem instead of the solution. Can we fix it? We're so far beyond that point; a real fix would probably involve more work than we're willing to put into it. Can we tweak a few things here and there and try to restore some semblance of design? Yes, we can. We are. And for better or worse, that's going to have to suffice.
I tend to agree with the Staff on this one.
While I agree with what Fathi and X-D have said about raiders / sdesc masking, I think it is a little silly to be able to concentrate on maintaining a psychic barrier, while trying to bash someone's head in, or protect yourself from getting killed.
When I have been in fights, it is on. Adrenaline central, thoughts don't really exist, it turns into primal instinct. While I do not have the ability to either contact other sentient beings conscious thoughts, or throw up a wall against other people's probings, I can -imagine- that such a thing would be incredibly difficult to do during combat, regardless of situation.
While I agree there might need to be a grey area in the second game, (Such as the example of swatting at a small child while being a badass captain of the guard), is it really worth that tweak in code?
I would rather focus on improving mundanes ability to cope with non-mundanes extremely different power scale. At this point, I feel that the 'floor' (Being the lowest point of coded power) that non-mundanes walk upon is the heads of every single mundane character. Are there exceptions? Absolutely. A 100 day+ assassin can one shot a 100 day Krathi, no questions asked. A 100 day warrior -- Well. That might be a different story, it might not. If its a Whiran? Good luck, to either assassins or warriors. But as Fathi touched on, it is more than just coded ability. Its plots, its staff protection and coddling, its twinking, its code reliance instead of RP ability.
I believe most of these balance issues will be solved in 2.0, especially with multi-classing and being able to better 'portray' a warrior of your choice.
As a final note, I will say that Magick, from what I have seen, is returning to the old ways in Tuluk at least. It seems to be scary, it seems to be rare. If it isn't, its peoples are doing a good job hiding it and being subtle.
I can see it already....
Barrer
You've set up a barrier, yo.
tell merchant (viciously pointing ~sword at !merchant) Stand and deliver! One look at me and ya's dead! Eyes to th' sand!
Viciously pointing your sword at the scared little merchant, the cloaked raider exclaims, "Stand and deliver! One look at me an' ya's dead, eyes to th' sand!"
The scared little merchant attacks you.
You feel your mental barrier fading away
The scared little merchant flees
thinking oocly: "Shit, shit, shit, shit.
Barrier
You fail to set up a barrier.
Barrier
You fail to set up a barrier.
You feel a foreign presence contact your mind.
You feel a foreign presence withdraw from your mind
I'm just saying, the Barrier is pretty much the raider/thieve's only means of snuffing out sdesc sniffing.
Now it can be easily bypassed.
And now people will be less inclined to make a raider and/or thief.
And now there's less stealing going on, meaning less conflict.
Plus, not to mention (censored) can now totally attack, flee, and (censored) to your (censored) and (censored) that (censored) right off your little (censored) and into the (censored) leaving you to (censored) then boom.
Mantis head.
:'(
Submit a player complaint if you feel as though someone is abusing something allowed by the code.
Sdesc sniffing is a controversial issue. I think it should be brought up in its own thread, for what it's worth; I have heard interesting arguments for either side of the matter.
Seriously, you should be able to watch your opponent during combat. It's a bug that you can't do it right now, isn't it?
It's mildly crazy that I have to alias the kill and watch command together whenever I'm tracking someone down.
Why do some of you think it is odd that somebody can keep a barrier up through combat?
I mean, I had a rather recent combat master PC who could easily take on stuff that was pretty much in the realm of sillyness without breaking a sweat. And Who lived with barrier up for his entire life. all 70+ days and a rl year. These things should have been EASY for him to do and his barrier and combat second nature...even first, like breathing. Yet, even with a barrier that should have been like 5 inches of steel armor plating, 5 day PCs routinely broke it. And now a gimpka rat missing him will break it to? No, that is sillyness.
Currently the code does not take such things as total experiance into account, As with almost anything else in Arm(code) It is either on, or off, yes or no, nothing in between. Nothing to say Hey, maybe because he is a master in this and this and this, he just might be able to , some % of the time be able to do two things at once. This is one thing to be said for level systems. Least then, even in a yes/no environment You can add such things in, putting in code to say, Alright, this guy has max barrier, max parry, max weapon skills and is level 121, verses a level 6 rat, He can keep his barrier up because at that high level difference he does not nood to even think about defending himself and killing the rat, it is something he could/would litterally do in his sleep.
And for the record, even though I don't talk about it often, I still hate reel code, even if it does normaly (99% of the time) Work to my PCs advantage and I think that stam loss for combat skills only helps NPCs, specificly ones controlled by staff since NPCs do not need to rest to regen stam, long as they are not in combat they regen at an alarming rate. Nothing worse then having a PC with over 180 usable stam who is riding, get chased 20 rooms by a mantis who is running the entire time then have that mantis and all his buddies use kick bash disarm 20 times each, then still be able to flee, run away, throw, run some more, throw, come back, while running, fight some more, to the point that just the disarm reversals from your PC has drained his stam to 20. Which means that the NPCs used up well over 400 stam.
Quote from: X-D on October 22, 2008, 07:58:50 PMAnd Who lived with barrier up for his entire life. all 70+ days and a rl year. These things should have been EASY for him to do ...
You, sir, are gravely mistaken. Your example is a perfect illustration of something that
no one should be able to do, and yet thanks to mutated code is now doing something it was never, ever intended for.
Let me be perfectly clear:
1. Walking around with a barrier up 100% of the time is not the purpose for which the skill was designed.
2. Yes, the code allows you to do it now, with virtually no penalty.
3. This is why we are making changes.
Quote from: Reiloth on October 22, 2008, 03:46:01 PMA 100 day+ assassin can one shot a 100 day Krathi, no questions asked.
And a 40-day Krathi can one-shot a 100-day assassin that rolls poorly on his backstab (because unless he's been murdering NPCs on carefully crafted IC excuses, his backstab still sucks balls, while that Krathi has been casting at nil), no questions asked.
The rest of your post I can generally agree with.
Two. Cents.
Arguments for and against barrier based on realism are castles in the air. According to most people, we don't have psionics, and according to most people who say we do, they don't work as they do in Arm.
Stick to playability; it has some weight.
Quote from: Tisiphone on October 22, 2008, 09:13:29 PM
Two. Cents.
Arguments for and against barrier based on realism are castles in the air. According to most people, we don't have psionics, and according to most people who say we do, they don't work as they do in Arm.
Stick to playability; it has some weight.
Primary reason barrier shouldn't break on combat : no one is ever 100% with it. It's one thing to take a moment to calm yourself after combat, but a full minute on the scale we operate? It doesn't make so much sense.
What was it intended for then?
It was either intended to be useful or not...Period.
Barrier, before this change was, as I have stated before, only marginally useful.
It is too weak, too easily broken, so is not real useful for defensive use against coded things some classes can do. And is pointless to use to hide in any way, including your sdesc or that you are alive or IG.
This change moves it into the "why bother" List of skills to train/use. Only to be used when in a closed room with another person when you are trying to trade secrets in hopes that maybe (And I'm not saying they can or not) but maybe a psi will not be able to snoop what is going on without you knowing. And giving even more reason when meeting certain classes to simply attack without warning/emote/rp.
AND, you are yourself wrong on one thing. No matter the intention, no matter that people argue it is not realistic to begin with so stick to talking about playability. If you or anybody does something enough, they will get to the point of being able to do it all the time without thinking. You might find it nearly impossible to balance a tennisball on each shoulder and walk around. But if you did it long enough and worked on it long enough you could not only walk around but do most the things you do every day to survive keeping them balls in place without even thinking about doing it.
And let us give a moment to talk about playability. It is bad enough that this hurts playability in many ways, Sure, maybe 95% of players will never end up dealing with it. But some/many will. And it sucks when things like this are done BEFORE anything else is changed to keep playability. Backwards if you ask me. The PC types who could/can take advantage of somebody not having barrier up already had a massive advantage, enough so that a maxed barrier was like having a twig to fend off a grizzly, but now even the twig has been takin away.
And sure, I am being vocal and maybe annoying, but I play mostly combat heavy PCs. And at least before I had that twig to hold up against being one shotted. Twig gone, Now what? Might as well take my (insert bunch of time played here) Naked PC into mek territory at night. Same thing, Might not run into that mek this time, but eventually you will and when you do you have no chance in hell.
Don't like it.
Quote from: X-D on October 23, 2008, 12:50:43 AM
What was it intended for then?
It was either intended to be useful or not...Period.
Barrier, before this change was, as I have stated before, only marginally useful.
It is too weak, too easily broken, so is not real useful for defensive use against coded things some classes can do. And is pointless to use to hide in any way, including your sdesc or that you are alive or IG.
This change moves it into the "why bother" List of skills to train/use. Only to be used when in a closed room with another person when you are trying to trade secrets in hopes that maybe (And I'm not saying they can or not) but maybe a psi will not be able to snoop what is going on without you knowing. And giving even more reason when meeting certain classes to simply attack without warning/emote/rp.
AND, you are yourself wrong on one thing. No matter the intention, no matter that people argue it is not realistic to begin with so stick to talking about playability. If you or anybody does something enough, they will get to the point of being able to do it all the time without thinking. You might find it nearly impossible to balance a tennisball on each shoulder and walk around. But if you did it long enough and worked on it long enough you could not only walk around but do most the things you do every day to survive keeping them balls in place without even thinking about doing it.
And let us give a moment to talk about playability. It is bad enough that this hurts playability in many ways, Sure, maybe 95% of players will never end up dealing with it. But some/many will. And it sucks when things like this are done BEFORE anything else is changed to keep playability. Backwards if you ask me. The PC types who could/can take advantage of somebody not having barrier up already had a massive advantage, enough so that a maxed barrier was like having a twig to fend off a grizzly, but now even the twig has been takin away.
And sure, I am being vocal and maybe annoying, but I play mostly combat heavy PCs. And at least before I had that twig to hold up against being one shotted. Twig gone, Now what? Might as well take my (insert bunch of time played here) Naked PC into mek territory at night. Same thing, Might not run into that mek this time, but eventually you will and when you do you have no chance in hell.
Quote from: Nyr on October 22, 2008, 01:08:48 PM
Quote from: Nyr on October 22, 2008, 08:52:51 AM
...It was designed this way initially (to break on combat), but was not functioning this way. In fact, we've been discussing this very skill on the IDB (and still are), and weren't discussing this particular change to that skill at all. This discussion that we had prompted a look at the code surrounding the skill. The original coder that implemented it noticed that it was not functioning as intended, and made a change to reflect the way it was intended.
Back to that discussion I mentioned, though. There will likely be more changes to come to reflect that discussion, because we (like those of you that have posted here) are very much aware of things in the game that can become unbalanced or exploited. In fact, there were several other things that were discussed that have simply been accepted as "fact" (and rather detrimental to playability) that could possibly be changed as a result (unrelated to barrier).
It's not out of the question that things still won't be altered to take into account suggestions here, because suggestions have been the root of some changes made in the past. I've seen some staff-side discussion on the game port even today about it. As best I can tell, the bug-fix has been live since the last maintenance (which was either early yesterday or Monday, I forget). I understand that people are concerned about feature creeping adversely affecting balance and gameplay between mundane characters and their non-mundane counterparts, and I have duly noted it in the thread that the staff is using and has previously been using to discuss this--but it has only been two days.
I dunno, For the most part I do -not- like this idea at all. Now it makes it virtually IMPOSSIBLE
to raid anyone. First, MDESC hiding Mask were taken away. Now Barrier is too? Come on, it just
seems like this was made so people can FIND raiders, thieves, etc more easily. All you need to do now is
Attack raider, flee, contact sandcloth figure. I do not like this -at all-. But, This is just my stance.
Quote from: Krath on October 23, 2008, 10:42:58 AMAll you need to do now is
Attack raider, flee, contact sandcloth figure.
Attacking an armed raider (incurring a rather nice delay), fleeing (risking failure), and then using contact (incurring more delay) in the hopes that you get through before said raider gets a barrier back up or worse, finds you again, seems like a good idea? Being the one to attack first is a good way to establish yourself as the victim in a scenario in the eyes of anyone who happens to witness the event? This is your clever plan for figuring out someone's sdesc?
And let's remind ourselves, barrier isn't the issue here, this so-called "sdesc sniffing" is your concern. Barrier is not a good fix or deterrent for that. Using it as a deterrent to a problem it wasn't meant to fix was about as effective as a band-aid on a disembowelment. So if the inability to keep your identity under wraps is the real problem, then as Nyr has said before, let's talk about the real problem, not try to shore up a poorly conceived workaround.
It would be more like this:
Raider attacks you and tries to use bash (Has a hefty delay following a hefty delay in an attempt to knock you from your mount). He fails the bash.
You flee (Minor Delay).
North (Minor delay)
contact raider (Minor Delay)
Raider follows north (Minor Delay) -OR- tries barrier (Medium delay) -OR- lowers their hood (No delay, but then the attackee looks south and sees the PC.)
The raider has someone in their head that suddenly disconnects.
Game over for Raider.
Here or some tips that will help you get around the raiding problem until staff--if they ever do--make a definitive decision rather short desc fishing is OOC or not.
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,32858.msg392262.html#new
I don't think it should be an all or nothing thing.
I think that a skilled combatant with a decent barrier skill should be able to keep a barrier up while engaged. The point is that it would simply take less effort for them. That, and a hard hit to the head or a "reel" effect should knock down a barrier.
So again, IMO it should be changed so that it's not impossible for someone with a decent barrier skill and decent combat skill to keep barrier up while fighting. It should also be put in place that a hard hit to the head or being "reeled" should knock down your barrier no matter how good you are at it.
I severely dislike the change to it being impossible because it's not out of the realm of believability that skilled people could do this.
There have been some good code changes over the last few years. There have also been some pretty shitty ones too that I believe added nothing to the game and only succeeded in uping the dificulty of doing certain things that were unreasonably difficult in the first place.
Quote from: jhunter on October 23, 2008, 03:25:13 PM
I don't think it should be an all or nothing thing.
I think that a skilled combatant with a decent barrier skill should be able to keep a barrier up while engaged. The point is that it would simply take less effort for them. That, and a hard hit to the head or a "reel" effect should knock down a barrier.
So again, IMO it should be changed so that it's not impossible for someone with a decent barrier skill and decent combat skill to keep barrier up while fighting. It should also be put in place that a hard hit to the head or being "reeled" should knock down your barrier no matter how good you are at it.
I severely dislike the change to it being impossible because it's not out of the realm of believability that skilled people could do this.
There have been some good code changes over the last few years. There have also been some pretty shitty ones too that I believe added nothing to the game and only succeeded in uping the dificulty of doing certain things that were unreasonably difficult in the first place.
I stand behind Jhunter's idea for barrier.
If so, why not allow people to be contacted while you're fighting? Or remain in contact, rather. There's a number of ways people could devise to be 'twinkish' so to speak, about that. I see no one complaining if it was implemented...or not. ::)
In the end, I think it's just all rather silly the reaction that people are having to this change. Some folks just need to grow up. There will always be ways to twink if you look for it. Does that mean you should do it?
Make it very difficult for psionic skills to be initiated against someone who is currently fighting.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on October 23, 2008, 03:57:42 PM
Make it very difficult for psionic skills to be initiated against someone who is currently fighting.
This is an interesting idea, and is already part of the current discussion staff-side.
Quote from: Prince Prig on October 23, 2008, 03:43:11 PMIn the end, I think it's just all rather silly the reaction that people are having to this change. Some folks just need to grow up. There will always be ways to twink if you look for it. Does that mean you should do it?
I'm getting the impression that you don't know what the 'exploit' people are talking about is, or, if you do, you don't understand what it could do. It seems to me (and to several others, apparently) that this code change could allow a single (relatively low on the karma scale) class to kill pretty much anyone they come across. This is a
big deal, and trying to pass the outspoken among us off as doomsayers will do nothing to help the discussion, or the game.
The best way for psionics to not reveal identity to the typical mundane would be this:
>contact Amos
You make contact with someone's mind.
>psi Hi.
You send someone's mind a telepathic message.
"Hi."
That's all the change that is needed. If you get the wrong mind, oh well. If you get the right mind, somebody will contact you in return. There'll be no more identity issues based off of a mind. And psionists will still see what we all see now.
The code change would be minimal.
I have always agreed with the suggestion 7DV just gave.
Also, I posted something like what Jhunter said so, of course agree.
Lastly, and this is an idea some people might hate.
But, What if you just made it so the certain abilities that barrier protects against cannot be used on somebody who is under combat timer. Those abilities deserve a little nerfing anyway.
Quote from: Tzurahro on October 23, 2008, 04:14:07 PM
This is an interesting idea, and is already part of the current discussion staff-side.
It is interesting. I've always been curious about accounting for the target's state of mind when dealing with psionics.
Quote from: Nyr on October 22, 2008, 04:14:13 PM
Submit a player complaint if you feel as though someone is abusing something allowed by the code.
Sdesc sniffing is a controversial issue. I think it should be brought up in its own thread, for what it's worth; I have heard interesting arguments for either side of the matter.
Anecdote: I'd like to point out that I've felt like I've been sdesc sniffed
quite a few times but in 3/4 of these situations, I only had a vaguely good guess of who it was.
Quote from: Mood on October 23, 2008, 04:24:38 PM
Quote from: Prince Prig on October 23, 2008, 03:43:11 PMIn the end, I think it's just all rather silly the reaction that people are having to this change. Some folks just need to grow up. There will always be ways to twink if you look for it. Does that mean you should do it?
I'm getting the impression that you don't know what the 'exploit' people are talking about is, or, if you do, you don't understand what it could do. It seems to me (and to several others, apparently) that this code change could allow a single (relatively low on the karma scale) class to kill pretty much anyone they come across. This is a big deal, and trying to pass the outspoken among us off as doomsayers will do nothing to help the discussion, or the game.
It
is fairly scary. What we're talking about here was
already incredibly powerful--it's just reached nigh-upon epic levels.
Why not leave barrier as it was?
Bug or no, did anyone -really- complain about being able to have a barrier up during combat? Now, you've got this whole balance issue creeping up, which is never an easy fix.
Certainly time is better spent elsewhere, yeah?
You know.. like that new version of Arma that was supposed to be released a couple years ago?
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on October 23, 2008, 04:24:47 PM
The best way for psionics to not reveal identity to the typical mundane would be this:
>contact Amos
You make contact with someone's mind.
>psi Hi.
You send someone's mind a telepathic message.
"Hi."
That's all the change that is needed. If you get the wrong mind, oh well. If you get the right mind, somebody will contact you in return. There'll be no more identity issues based off of a mind. And psionists will still see what we all see now.
The code change would be minimal.
This is something that I agree with as well.
Edit: I do believe that it should remain unchanged in this aspect for psionicists due to their expertise in this area they should be able to get more information through the use of psionics.
Quote from: jhunter on October 23, 2008, 06:43:13 PM
I do believe that it should remain unchanged in this aspect for psionicists due to their expertise in this area they should be able to get more information through the use of psionics.
Absolutely.
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on October 23, 2008, 06:34:46 PM
It is fairly scary. What we're talking about here was already incredibly powerful--it's just reached nigh-upon epic levels.
Yes.
Quote from: manonfire on October 23, 2008, 06:38:55 PM
Why not leave barrier as it was?
Bug or no, did anyone -really- complain about being able to have a barrier up during combat? Now, you've got this whole balance issue creeping up, which is never an easy fix.
Certainly time is better spent elsewhere, yeah?
You know.. like that new version of Arma that was supposed to be released a couple years ago?
God yes.
Yeah. Who was really burning the midnight oil, fretting about people having barrier up in combat after how many years now?
Yeah? Why not make this bug into a feature? <--Serious question
urgh, this could have been better handled.
I love you guys but this could have been better handled.
Agreed.
Quote from: Nusku on October 22, 2008, 08:12:22 PM
Quote from: X-D on October 22, 2008, 07:58:50 PMAnd Who lived with barrier up for his entire life. all 70+ days and a rl year. These things should have been EASY for him to do ...
You, sir, are gravely mistaken. Your example is a perfect illustration of something that no one should be able to do, and yet thanks to mutated code is now doing something it was never, ever intended for.
Let me be perfectly clear:
1. Walking around with a barrier up 100% of the time is not the purpose for which the skill was designed.
2. Yes, the code allows you to do it now, with virtually no penalty.
3. This is why we are making changes.
So. Are you implying that players should not walk around with barrier up? Will they be considered abusing a bug if they do this? I always thought the skill was working as intended. What is the staffs position on the current state of barrier after this fix?
I interpreted it to mean that barrier wasn't meant to be used the same way a breastplate is used (which is also not exactly normal or RP-correct) - on, 24/7, without any regard to setting, mood, situation, personality, environment. Lots of people do put lots of thought into what they're wearing under their cloak, that no one else can see but themselves (unless peek lets others see it but most people don't have that skill so we're not talking about exceptions)....
But most people will find a suitable "torso-covering" and wear it all the time, and -maybe- only take it off for mudsex or repair if it gets to that point. No matter that your character's skin is probably blistered with oozing infected sores by now, it's been three years, your breastplate has kept you alive, and damnit you didn't really need that left tit anyway.
Barrier wasn't meant to be "worn" like that. It was meant to be used as a temporary protective measure against certain bad things, and perhaps just to shut people the fuck up when it gets noisy in your head because you're a leader type and everyone and their pet gortok NEEDS you constantly.
But I guess some people do "wear" barrier as if it were a breastplate, like it said in the post that Nusku responded to.
QuoteQuoteAnd Who lived with barrier up for his entire life. all 70+ days and a rl year. These things should have been EASY for him to do ...
QuoteYou, sir, are gravely mistaken. Your example is a perfect illustration of something that no one should be able to do, and yet thanks to mutated code is now doing something it was never, ever intended for.
Bold for emphasis - people weren't intended to wear barrier 24/7. *NOT* that people aren't meant to wear it and walk around with it.
Quote from: mattrious on October 24, 2008, 11:44:00 AM
So. Are you implying that players should not walk around with barrier up? Will they be considered abusing a bug if they do this? I always thought the skill was working as intended. What is the staffs position on the current state of barrier after this fix?
One of the trickier things about coding a game like Armageddon is matching up what the code does with how you expect the world to function. And there are times when player expectations and staff expectations aren't the same either. Frequently the way code works becomes a sort of
de facto standard for both player and staff expectations, for better or for worse. Often the merit of that standard is judged (on the player side of things) by how it affects their current PC. Let me give you an example of how this works.
Currently, we do not have code that allows you to bash a door down. Amos the mul has been locked in a room by some malicious folks, and starves to death. We (staff) gets a res request that looks something like, "Hi, I'm Amos the mul, and I'm really strong. I should have been able to bash down this thin wooden door but I couldn't get any staff help with it and I starved to death." Well... for better or worse, there's no door-bashing code, so codedly Amos is well and truly trapped in that little room. We have to turn down the res request. Player expectations for the environment (this is a thin door, I'm strong, I can break it) didn't match up with the code.
But let's say that Amos wished up while he was starving, and some immortal decides to take pity and assists Amos in "bashing down the door." Along comes Malik the human, the guy that locked Amos in, and Amos has escaped and the door is broken down. Now we're going to get an email from Malik's player - "Hey, I locked this mul up and there was no coded way for him to have gotten out. The immortals are trying to eat my brainz by letting Amos go!" You see, Malik's expectation was that the world conformed to the de facto coded standard - that is, there's no coded escape, therefore there's no escape.
Which of those two players is being "unrealistic" or "unreasonable"? In a way, both and neither. What you see, however, is that both players are arguing on whichever side happens to benefit their own character. Amos is going to argue that he should have some way to escape, Malik is going to argue that he should have some way to prevent Amos from escaping.
So staff looks at this dilemma, and decides to implement door-bashing code. The door-bash code is greeted quietly by players of muls and half-giants with approval. Meanwhile, the discussion board suddenly fills up with players complaining that the new door-bashing code is going to set off a wave of half-giant burglars who just smash into apartments instead of picking the locks. But for better or worse, the door-bash code becomes the new de facto standard. The immortals have decided This Is The Way The World Works.
Back to your question on barrier. Code-wise, you can keep a barrier up all the time. It has been that way for years. This leads to the player expectation that this is How It Should Be. Do we (staff) think that people shouldn't walk around with barrier up 9 hours a day, 11 days a week? Yes, but we also recognize that we're contending with an existing de facto standard; it's probably unreasonable for us to try to enforce some new standard just through roleplay. That means that if we want to change the way in which people use barrier, we have to change the code. And when we change code, it means that staff is setting a new de facto standard for how something ought to be used, even if the old code was responsible for setting up the expectations that players had about the way the world worked.
Short answer to your questions:
Ideally, I'd like to see players not walking around with barriers up all the time. I also recognize that if that's going to change, it will have to be enforced by code somehow.
It will not be considered abusing a bug if you do walk around with barrier up all the time.
Staff position on the current state of barrier after the fix is that we may tinker with it more, or we may leave it alone. Either way, we will do so with the best interest of the game at heart.
Edited to add:
Also, Lizzie is correct. The breastplate analogy is one I hadn't thought of, but it's a good one.
I've seen a few questions that I'd like to respond to, since if I were only a player and didn't see the staff side of this clearly, I'd be asking the same things.
Is this [tendency for people to leave their barriers up 100% of the time] a bug?
No, it is merely an unforeseen side effect due to several things that were somehow balanced by this one skill but could/should have been balanced in other ways. Much like it is possible to spamcast a magicker into the realm of super power, or spamcraft a merchant into the realm of super rich, it is possible to walk around with a barrier up 100% of the time. That is not the way the skill was designed to work, but it is the way that the skill has been used on the whole.
Why are we focusing on this now?
A coder was fixing his old code to be the way it was intended. The only reason the coder saw this code was out of line was due to staff members discussing how to improve upon some existing code and correct some imbalances within the current game having to do with that ability. The coder saw it, the coder corrected it, and it was done. The fix got pushed to the live port after maintenance on Monday (or Tuesday?), which happened before an announcement. In the vast majority of code changes that affect the game, staff members usually announce it. This wasn't one of those cases, since it got moved faster than expected. Oops. Our bad.
However, I think a lot of people are still missing the point here: we were already discussing how to improve upon some existing code and correct some imbalances within the game related to this particular skill. We are well aware of the potential for imbalance due to this change because we were already talking about other ways of fixing it. We have not stopped talking about other ways to fix these problems.
Why not leave barrier as it was?
I think the real question here was "why not roll the change back until you fix the other stuff?" I'll answer both, though.
I'm not a coder by any stretch of the word. I can manipulate some of the javascripts in the game and on occasion, I've added a javascript or edited one. I offer feedback to the coding staff when they ask for it, and sometimes I offer suggestions for things to be coded. With that said, I don't think there's a technical reason why we could not roll this change (or bugfix) or any other change (or bugfix) back. We can always do that. I doubt we will, but we always CAN roll changes back.
Let's go back to that discussion I was talking about the staff having over imbalances and problems to be fixed.
Last night, Morgenes posted that there was a code change going into place that would fix one of these perceived imbalances or problems, and also deal with a really old problem that had nothing to do with barrier at all.
We are still moving forward and making improvements. Moving it back to the way it was before is a Band-aid (at best) for several problems.
Don't you guys have better things to do than "fix" code in Arm 1--you know, like build and code Arm 2, that game we've waited on for nearly two years?
Some of the concepts we try out (or fix) in Arm 1 may or may not make it into Arm 2. I don't think the existence of Armageddon Reborn as a goal means that we should not focus any more code efforts on Armageddon as it is now, though. We could have ignored this bugfix (I'm sure) and several other changes made over the past months (ride code, parrying, flaming dildos of doom, etc) and put them all in for Armageddon Reborn. I think it would be a bad decision to ignore potential for improvements in the current game in the interim.
Yes, it's taking a while to complete this new game, and that can be frustrating to wait for--and I figure it's just as frustrating knowing that we are holding back some information and documentation because of its secretive nature. I've even got one of my Staff Responsibilities listed as "Arm 2 Project (secret stuff)." I'd love to share with you, but I can't. (It'll be awesome when I can, though.)
Hopefully that helped answer those questions.
I'll throw in something here and I hope that I can state it in such a way to not get this post removed. I'll try to use terminology that has already been used and not thrown out.
I see no problem with this barrier change. You argue that low level karma [guild] with [ability] is epically powered now. I don't think so. If you're complaining about this you already know some things about how [ability] works.
The truth is, [ability] was pretty worthless before, because the majority of people know about it. This change is only making [ability] useful again where it was relatively useless against everyone except n00bs who didn't catch your IG innuendo (and often meta-gaming) about why you should always take [action].
Let's take a look at the time delay caused by certain things.
You are afraid that [guild] will run in and attack you, then use [ability]. Add the attack delay and [ability] delay together, and you're looking at a powerful combo but one that takes a while to complete. You should have enough time to have a chance to survive. It is not going to be something totally overpowering.
Worse case scenario, they run in and use [ability2] and then [ability] behind it, diminishing their total lag by only a few seconds. Lucky for you [ability2] isn't applicable in many situations.
I'm for this change for several reasons. I think your fears are completely unfounded. They are simply giving life to relatively unusable and worthless [ability].
As to people saying you should not wear it all the time, or it was not intended to be worn all the time. I find that is a straight jacket to a PC in personality.
Like IRL. There are people who carry that cell phone every where, call people all day longt and simply cannot leave a ringing phone un-answered.
Now, myself, I cannot stand to be bothered or a phone slave, I almost never call any body, do not have a cell phone and normaly leave the ringer on my phone off and might check my voice mail once a week.
If we had the same psi abilities IRL as we have in arm, believe me, I would have learned how to keep my barrier up every waking moment and maybe even sleeping.
And LLT, I'm sorry, but nobody is thinking that at all. But if said class(es) were to instead have a friend to attack you or simply wait for you to attack that jozhal so now you are in combat delay or wait for that agro mob to attack you. Least that is what I would do and is MANY times faster then the method you thought of.
I'm sort of with X-D here. I can think of quite a few possibilities to keep a barrier up whenever it comes to mind in a few cases. Granted, I don't think Joe the Street Sweeper needs to have barrier up all day, but sometimes having barrier up is helpful when visiting certain places or talking to certain people.
And as far as the OP class is concerned, I think it is completely viable to do, but it would be difficult. I knew someone that played [class] and would have a hard time using [ability2] before people would run and it was ineffectual anyways, never mind getting off [ability1]. Its pretty tough, and n00bles may get caught off guard, but I think its might be better overall. If not, the staff will quash it.
I had thought of working with someone else to get what you wanted done done. I tried to only include solo scenarios. Working with a friend or an NPC will always give you a huge leg up. If more than one of anything is after you, you've got far more severe problems.
I am not arguing that barrier shouldn't work this way.
I was merely giving some thought to an area where other people were screaming "OMGS! LOW LEVEL KARMA GUILD IS EPIC NOW! CAN'T BE STOPPED."
Apparently several of you were very worried about this.
I'm totally giving desert elves a second look.
Well, though I think it was giving the low level one a larger advantage, that is not what I was worried about, it is the already super powerful scary high karma guild.
Personally I'm not so worried about the <low level guild> doing <ability> after attacking. God knows, said <guild> already has plenty of tools to make you cry momma.
What I am worried though, is the psi scrying, sdesc sniffing. Some hooded figure fails a steal and gets attacked. Gets away and runs off, but immediately everyone present will scry him up. Hit and runs by assassins? The chances for upkeeping anonymity are ... that much lower.
I do not particularly understand why it's considered a bad thing to always maintain a barrier on your mind. It's not like it doesnt have a price for upkeeping it. And no, I do not mean the stun price. The barrier is a person's choice to be outside the way (or try to) Not only can he not be contacted by enemies, but his friends cant find him either, and he ... cant find them.
In many aspects of Armageddon, particularly if your character has to stay under the radar of the Templarate, upkeeping the barrier on a near constant basis is 'extremely' important. And ... it 'helps' roleplay, more then harms it. If a person is initiative enough to be participating in many plots, and yet requires to upkeep anonymity. Then this person has barrier up 90% of the time, and has an 'aide' or a 'right hand in his crew' to do the communicating for 'him'. Or ... picks and chooses places and times for conversations. All that adding to the mystery, subtlety, and stealthy way of life for the character.
You can say that this happens only to those who actually participate in plots a lot, but it allows those spam happy individuals who just stay away untill maxed out aswell. Well ... those people tend not to interact with people enough to be contacted anyway, so it hardly affects them.
While I don't have a feeling about the change in barrier one way or the other, we may have to revise the docs a little in light of the bug-fix since it says under the help file for sorcerors:
Because of their potential power, the Kings of Old, as well as the lords of the city-states of the contemporary world, do not permit sorcerers to exist. All who demonstrate knowledge or use of wizardry are typically killed at the earliest opportunity. Being powerful in the way of psionics, High Templars and the Kings themselves can easily sense a sorcerer's presence if said sorcerers do not properly shield their minds at all times.
Quote from: musashi on October 25, 2008, 08:35:35 AM
While I don't have a feeling about the change in barrier one way or the other, we may have to revise the docs a little in light of the bug-fix since it says under the help file for sorcerors:
Because of their potential power, the Kings of Old, as well as the lords of the city-states of the contemporary world, do not permit sorcerers to exist. All who demonstrate knowledge or use of wizardry are typically killed at the earliest opportunity. Being powerful in the way of psionics, High Templars and the Kings themselves can easily sense a sorcerer's presence if said sorcerers do not properly shield their minds at all times.
Nice documentation grab--but it doesn't need to be changed, in my opinion.
I'm not trying to do a "doc-grab" or throw some kind of text back in the face of the staff or anything like that Nyr, I just wanted to show that while reading, I did come across some text in the docs that seemed to imply there are people out there who would keep barrier up at all times.
Like I said before ... I really don't mind having barrier drop when combat starts, but I believe X-D said that some of his previous characters all but lived with barrier up, and then Nusku said that shouldn't be possible. Just saying, the text does imply that some folks do live with barrier up all the time ... punches to the face not withstanding.
Let me rephrase:
What I meant was that I didn't realize that was even part of the documentation anywhere--it's really neat.
However, I don't think it needs to be changed since this is an example (to me) of exceptional circumstances. Not every Amos Six-Bottletm is going to be a sorcerer.
Ahh, I got ya now! :)
I agree that it's apt to be uncommon for folks to run around with a barrier constantly up, but I just wanted to interject that it should probably be possible if that uncommon need arises. A person should be able to train themselves into keeping barrier up almost all of the time.
But ... those same people should probably avoid the Gaj since getting punched in the face it going to make them drop it ;D
To reference X-D's analogy ... you could very well be able to train yourself to walk around with a tennis ball on either shoulder, but let someone start swinging a basebal bat at you, and see how long those tennis balls stay there.
Quote from: Nyr on October 25, 2008, 10:24:19 AM
Let me rephrase:
What I meant was that I didn't realize that was even part of the documentation anywhere--it's really neat.
However, I don't think it needs to be changed since this is an example (to me) of exceptional circumstances. Not every Amos Six-Bottletm is going to be a sorcerer.
it's neat he says.
And last I checked, sorcerors have very mundane psionic abilities, otherwise they tend to turn into God-Kings. So why couldn't every Amos Six-Bottle do with psionics exactly what a Sorceror would do? Sure it might not be worth the trouble, but he should be CAPABLE of it.
Check again, Agent.
Ah ah ah ... lets not go down that road.
So, if a Sorc hiding in Allanak gets into a scuffle, he's automatically noticed by the Highlord.
SWEET.
I'm calling for a city-wide brawl in Allanak.
Quote from: Nez on October 25, 2008, 03:35:04 AMWhat I am worried though, is the psi scrying, sdesc sniffing. Some hooded figure fails a steal and gets attacked. Gets away and runs off, but immediately everyone present will scry him up. Hit and runs by assassins? The chances for upkeeping anonymity are ... that much lower.
For those who still think along these lines and haven't been paying attention to staff posts here and elsewhere: after the next reboot, contact will only allow the use of temporary keywords for targeting if the target is in the same room. The old "> contact figure"
will not work unless said figure is in the room with you, or you are trying to contact "the dwarf with a shapely figure."
Regarding documentation about sorcerers: now and then, what you see in documentation represents the "common knowledge" side of things, rather than an absolute truth. In other words, public documentation is going to be generic ("sorcerers should have barrier up at all times to avoid discovery!") rather than specific ("sorcerers should have barrier up when doing x,y,z to avoid discovery.") Experimentation in game or learning from other players in game or sometimes documentation that is given to people in particular roles will give more detailed information than generic documentation.
To put it a slightly different way, you already know that we don't tell everyone everything. We like to hold back on some types of information in order to make the game more fun and make certain roles more interesting. Even after joining staff, you will still run into all kinds of things that you just did not know or were slightly (or completely) incorrect about. That's the nature of the game, though. It's meant to be a little mysterious in some ways.
Regarding changes in gameplay... barrier used to be a psionicist-only skill. I wasn't playing when that was the case, that's just what I've been told by a couple of Highlords who were around back in the day. In a way, I wish that were still the case because the widespread availability of the skill has created more problems than it has solved. In particular it seems to have created a widespread set of assumptions about what it can (or should) do that not only don't match up with actual gameplay, but also happen to be ill-advised. The "sdesc-sniffing" is a good example of this. Barrier isn't a good solution to that problem; it doesn't even address the underlying issue. The real issue, in this case, is the way the contact skill handles targeting. Hopefully Morgenes has now addressed that problem, but if it remains an issue, we'll address it as an issue with contact, rather than an issue with barrier.
If melee combat lowers barrier, shouldn't other skills like throw, archery, and magick lower it as well?
Quote from: Sephiroto on October 25, 2008, 03:13:18 PM
If melee combat lowers barrier, shouldn't other skills like throw, archery, and magick lower it as well?
It's the matter of turning your concentration to melee fighting, which requires constant attention that we are trying to reconcile with these changes. You can do other tasks while maintaining a barrier, just not something that requires as much concentration as combat.
You never utterly lose your concentration while fighting in a melee, with the exception of reeling perhaps. You can lose your concentration with magick though. I'm sure we've all RP'd a spell backfiring from time to time.
I understand what your position and intent with the barrier thing is Morgenes, but it doesn't make any sense at all to me. Wouldn't summoning fireballs be just as hard or even harder than punching someone in the face or slashing at someone? How is backstabbing or throwing a dagger at someone's throat any less concentration-intensive than regular melee?
There's probably some sort of reasoning behind the scenes for this change that I'm not aware off and I'll concede that. But from my point of view as a player, the changes don't seem to be fair from one guild to another.
This has gone past how the skill affects my character. This is me trying to understand how in the world this makes any sense at all. I've got no problem with skills being sacked as long as they're sacked across the board.
**edited for spelling**
Quote from: Sephiroto on October 25, 2008, 04:17:40 PM
You never utterly lose your concentration while fighting in a melee, with the exception of reeling perhaps. You can lose your concentration with magick though. I'm sure we've all RP'd a spell backfiring from time to time.
I understand what your position and intent with the barrier thing is Morgenes, but it doesn't make any sense at all to me. Wouldn't summoning fireballs be just as hard or even harder than punching someone in the face or slashing at someone? How is backstabbing or throwing a dagger at someone's throat any less concentration-intensive than regular melee?
There's probably some sort of reasoning behind the scenes for this change that I'm not aware off and I'll concede that. But from my point of view as a player, the changes don't seem to be fair from one guild to another.
This has gone past how the skill affects my character. This is me trying to understand how in the world this makes any sense at all. I've got on problem with skills being sacked as long as they're sacked across the board.
If we're talking about realism, combat is a far more frantic, heart pounding affair than the mud even begins to simulate properly. I suppose you could argue that since Zalanthans are terrified of magick they'd freak out and lose their concentration if they even saw a spell being cast... but comparing chucking a dagger to engaging in melee doesn't work.
With that said, I think it's more of a game play issue than a realism issue. So I wouldn't sweat it too much.
Also, this isn't a mmorpg, the classes were never meant to be balanced.
Here I am raising the dead.
I noticed that barrier can no longer be erected during combat.
I've also noticed a trend in ideas where; when I think of something for psionics... the opposite tends to happen.
-make contact more difficult -- everyone gets mastered contact
-make barrier last through the beginning of combat -- you can't even create a mind barrier during combat anymore
luckily, those were the only two things about psionics that I've ever had any knowledge or opinions about.
Quote from: a strange shadow on October 21, 2008, 12:41:18 PM
I don't know that I agree with that kind of change though, for certain reasons I won't go into on the GDB.
It makes certain situations much, much more perilous, and shafts certain types of characters even further on the ultimate power scale.
Hey look, this is still my opinion 10 years later!
holy shit TEN YEARS later
You could barrier in combat?
It was dangerous since you took the substantial stun hit as per normal, and noticeably difficult to do, but there were also benefits to doing so.
I thought the difficulty of doing so - and the stun penalty - reflected the difficulty of holding it up during combat just fine.
Looking back on it, some of the behaviors do seem more like features than intentional code, so I guess the point of this is to make it behave like contact does.
I liked combat barrier and will miss that but then again combat should be a tough time to create layers of mental defenses. Of course barrier sucks to actually block psionics anyway so it doesn't matter so much in the end.
I guess I'm just sorta confused as to why it was taken out? Of all things to change, why this?
Quote from: wizturbo on May 17, 2016, 08:36:25 PM
I guess I'm just sorta confused as to why it was taken out? Of all things to change, why this?
Just a guess, but maybe a recent event that happened where the ability to use barrier in combat was deemed not desirable. If you don't know which scenarios could prompt that, I can't elaborate further.
Total and complete shot in the dark, by the way. I always figure nothing is done 'just because.' Something draws attention to it.
Some spec-app 8karma jedi got reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeekt
Hopefully.