My experience has been that most subguild crafts allow a character to barely make a profit after long toil unless he or she can somehow get raw materials at no cost. The obvious exception is the tailor subguild.
The effect has been that, to earn a living, a character has to grind away constantly in order to afford food and water. Leading to vulnerability to accusations of spamcrafting and to a general reduction of enjoyment in the game if trying to stay independent.
Tinkering, stonecrafting, jewelry making, leatherworking, etc... all more or less the same. Certainly, it can be argued that this is realistic, but it doesn't add much to the game experience.
Please share your experiences and opinions on this subject.
I think that is one perspective. Another perspective is that the mechanics around subguild crafting encourages teamwork. You get someone who is focusing on foraging, with someone who is focusing on a craft, and someone else who is focusing on defense and combat, and someone else who focuses on trade..and you have yourself a terrific -group- of people working together to live in a productive and profitable manner.
Sure you -could- do all that yourself, but how much fun is that? Like you suggested in your post, that's drudgery, a lot of work, and you end up spending so much time with the coded skills that you might be -perceived- as someone not all that interested in roleplay. We have city-based clans, and non-city-based tribals, for people who want a ready-made "team" available with pre-existing documented history, rules, and customs. And for people who want to go it without the clan environment, we have lots of independents who can develop their own teams if they wish. Or - you can do it by yourself, if you really want to. But it certainly isn't necessary, and the game environment, the skillsets themselves, and the availability of other players seems to suggest teamwork, rather than doing it all yourself, is the preferred method.
I have made FORTUNES with crafting subguilds. Never have I thought they were insufficient, and I always play crafting subguilds, because I enjoy the crafting system so much. There is a particular place most would suggest you start for a tailor, that aside, play a ranger or even warrior, and you can find supplies for the other crafts in the wild, forage for rocks, kill for skins and bones, etc. If you are having trouble with a particular subguild, I would be more than willing to offer some advice.
I have never had my character's crafting subguild be their 'true' profession. Always, it's something they tinker at in their free time until they get decent enough at it that they can make some money, and then and only THEN might they put aside their nine to five slog in favor of trying to make it as Bob the Stonecrafter Extraordinaire.
Since your subguild is generally regarded to be your profession, this never really made sense to me why it is you're not better at it to start with, but you CAN make money with most of them after awhile. If, as you said, you can come across the raw mats cheaply or for free.
Quote from: Shiroi Tsuki on September 08, 2008, 11:42:39 AM
Since your subguild is generally regarded to be your profession, this never really made sense to me why it is you're not better at it to start with
It has always seem to me that crafting subguilds, did start better then when they are first branched by a merchant, a good bit better.
True independence doesn't exist. Being an indie doesn't mean you are absolutely self sustainable.
Just observe the real world. Attempting complete independence will fuck you up: *cough* North Korea *cough.
Indie artists, freelance writers, small bands, etc all still work within the overall system of things and need other people
for resources, guidance, success.
You are better than a merchant who branches.
Also:
QuoteSince your subguild is generally regarded to be your profession
This is absolutely incorrect. Staff have previously stated that subguilds represent knowledge from previous to when you started playing your character. That is, it is background, and not meant to be the primary skills you would use as a character (that would be your guild). I find subguilds to be fine.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 08, 2008, 11:16:56 AM
My experience has been that most subguild crafts allow a character to barely make a profit after long toil unless he or she can somehow get raw materials at no cost. The obvious exception is the tailor subguild.
I stopped reading there.
I've made a fortune with many different subclasses in the past, ranging from forester to weaponcrafter.
Maybe it's because I play Armageddon in EZmode (Tuluk).
This was a LONG while ago when the Kadius shop in the Bazzar still bought stuff(or does it buy stuff again?
) but I had a warrior jeweler in the Byn. We often went out forging, anything I found they let me keep, I made stuff, and sold it. Made a VERY nice living off this. For some reason she though working for Kadius would be a good idea. ~shrug~
I've made a ton of money with subguild crafts. Veritable assloads.
Broken amounts of money. Srsly.
Stonecrafting makes you much more independent than people may think -- I made a small fortune after I found the right spots to dig. Finding those spots is fun, also.
That is all.
Quote
Stonecrafting makes you much more independent than people may think -- I made a small fortune after I found the right spots to dig. Finding those spots is fun, also.
Quote
but I had a warrior jeweler in the Byn. We often went out forging, anything I found they let me keep, I made stuff, and sold it.
Quote
There is a particular place most would suggest you start for a tailor, that aside, play a ranger or even warrior, and you can find supplies for the other crafts in the wild, forage for rocks, kill for skins and bones, etc.
Would people
please read the original post before replying? The first line even:
Quote from: Salt MerchantMy experience has been that most subguild crafts allow a character to barely make a profit after long toil unless he or she can somehow get raw materials at no cost. The obvious exception is the tailor subguild.
What I'm referring to is an independent (i.e. unclanned) character that is smart enough to not head out into the desert alone to forage for raw materials, knowing that is how many people disappear after a short period of success.
...but everything comes with a cost!
Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 08, 2008, 09:21:34 PM
What I'm referring to is an independent (i.e. unclanned) character that is smart enough to not head out into the desert alone to forage for raw materials, knowing that is how many people disappear after a short period of success.
- 1) Hunt/forage yourself.
- 2) Hunt/forage with other indie friends that you connect with.
- 3) Buy materials from shops. Can still be profitable if you're willing to travel.
- 4) Make arrangements with someone else to bring you materials.
This one can work great if both people somehow benefit.
For example, maybe Amos the ranger makes 30 coins from selling a shell, but you can craft it into armor worth 3x that. You do so and split the profit, everyone wins. - 5) Join a group to help you, but that would naturally absolve the indie status.
Sounds like #2 or #4 are your best bets.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on September 08, 2008, 11:16:56 AM
My experience has been that most subguild crafts allow a character to barely make a profit after long toil unless he or she can somehow get raw materials at no cost. The obvious exception is the tailor subguild.
The effect has been that, to earn a living, a character has to grind away constantly in order to afford food and water. Leading to vulnerability to accusations of spamcrafting and to a general reduction of enjoyment in the game if trying to stay independent.
Tinkering, stonecrafting, jewelry making, leatherworking, etc... all more or less the same. Certainly, it can be argued that this is realistic, but it doesn't add much to the game experience.
Please share your experiences and opinions on this subject.
I'll re-iterate my
experience and opinion on the matter. If you want to sit in the safety of a city and be a crafter, than you'll probably have a hard time because you can't find your own raw materials. In my experience, I generally don't worry much about dying because I only walk a few leagues away from the city I operate out of. Stoneworking is a great sub-guild which offers the chance to make a fair profit even from the start -- cutlery and plates, vases and incense burners. I think this subguild is another obvious exception.
If I was to play a character who was strictly a [insert sub-guild here], I wouldn't care if people thought I was a "spamcrafter." Who cares? I need to stay alive. If you're so worried about what other people think, find a quiet place that isn't a tavern to craft in. Being vulnerable is better than being invincible in my opinion.
Playing an independent crafter can be difficult but rewarding at the same time. I wouldn't prefer to play one, but I think it can be done without making you "miserable."
Quote from: Ammut on September 09, 2008, 04:03:11 AM
Stoneworking is a great sub-guild which offers the chance to make a fair profit even from the start -- cutlery and plates, vases and incense burners.
I disagree. Plates and vases and incense burners? In several starting points, these can't be sold anywhere! It is possible to make a measly profit carving out forks, knives and spoons I found, but again it has to be a grind to accumulate money for basic needs, with the shops soon reaching saturation.
Quote
I wouldn't care if people thought I was a "spamcrafter." Who cares?
The staff, I suspect.
Quote
Playing an independent crafter can be difficult but rewarding at the same time. I wouldn't prefer to play one, but I think it can be done without making you "miserable."
Would it be so terrible to allow enough profit that more time can be devoted to other activities? All that would be necessary is to tweak breakage rates down somewhat (and for subguilds like stonecrafter, add a few new crafts that don't result in containers). This would help foragers not have to spam forage a hundred times to get enough materials too.
Fear of making the game too easy and/or subject to abuse has had various negative effects. And yet, as someone pointed out, location (Tuluk) can make it terribly easy anyhow. As can subguild choice (tailor). What if you don't want to be a tailor or live in Tuluk and you don't want to be someone else's minion with all the restrictions to go with it?
My suggestion would b__since yoru charecter would not want to take the risk themselves--find a hunter IC and pay him to bring you rocks, bone, leather, chitin, or what ever you need from the wild on their hunting trips. Most of it will be useless to them anyway, and YOU would set the price. I had a ranger that got all of his coin from two indie "merchants" who bought stone off of me, one in Tuluk and one in Nak.
I have always found that subguild crafting alone can make a good amount of money, but it is still a subguild. If your maini concern is, "You want to get finished making some coin so you can do more important things." Then I say, "What is more important than making plots and hiring other PCs to bring you craftable goods?" If you go out and collect your own things, then craft your own things, then sell your own things, you can make a lot of money easily. If you choose to outsource one of those jobs, then you could possible make only 2/3rds the profit. If you outsource another, you could end up only making 1/3rd the profit. 1/3 of 300 coins is still good money to get by and that is how I like it. I don't want to be rolling in the 'sid because I can make 300+ sid a day in the city finding my own raw materials in the city and crafting them in the safety of an empty building off Halthors.