Let's talk about how to give Rangers traps. There is a guild that offers in-city traps. Rangers should be shooting stuff, and setting traps for stuff. How can we offer Rangers traps in a manner that is fair to both the PCs and the class?
Pit traps that trap an animal in a small hole. Easily avoided by intelligent humanoids and the smarter animals. Small, unintelligent animals would be caught in them and easy prey for a volley of arrows or rocks.
They could temporarily modify the room like a particular magickal spell does and then you could chase flighty animals into them or lure aggressive animals into them.
Spikes in said pit traps.
Small stonefall traps to capture virtual animals. Snare traps. Et cetera.
craft rock stick
You could craft that into a small, stonefall trap.
craft rock stick into a small, stonefall trap
craft trap
You could craft that into a mewling, broken-legged gortok pup.
You could craft that into a dead, red-spotted brown lizard.
You could craft that into a broken-shelled horn beetle.
You could craft that into a writhing sand rat.
craft vine stick stone
You could craft that into a looped snare trap.
craft vine stick stone into a looped snare trap
craft trap
You could craft that into a juvenile jozhal.
You could craft that into a long-tailed desert mouse.
craft trap into a long-tailed desert mouse
craft mouse
You could craft that into a small skin and some stringy meat.
The animals would be objects that could be crafted. Taming could be extended too.
craft jozhal
You could craft that into a small, docile jozhal.
That could then be used like the other tamed animal objects.
Ergh...I love the trap idea, but not the idea of crafting traps into critters.
If we don't have sufficient NPC wildlife to make "actual" trapping work, give traps a random chance per time interval of being filled with a creature (either dead or live an' angry) appropriate for the area.
A trap should be something you create, leave, and recheck periodically. Sitting there and crafting one into a yompar would ruin all kinds of immersion for me. :D
A simple warning trap that ties a rope along an exit (tripwire) and makes some noise by clattering bones together when tripped. Could do for inside-to-outside exits, or any rooms with a lot of trees.
Another trap that works with a tripwire, but is attached to something large and hanging high, like a log, which swings down when the wire is tripped.
Punji pits would be awesome.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 12, 2008, 10:23:35 PM
Ergh...I love the trap idea, but not the idea of crafting traps into critters.
If we don't have sufficient NPC wildlife to make "actual" trapping work, give traps a random chance per time interval of being filled with a creature (either dead or live an' angry) appropriate for the area.
Yeah, I agree... or have a chance that the trap be filled with the NPC objects that Yam suggested. Sort of how foraging yields certain edible little critters... these traps might allow you to catch larger ones with various other things you can do with them.
I agree. I just do not know how to code muds and so defaulted to something that would be easy to carry over.
Quote from: Cutthroat on August 12, 2008, 10:53:14 PM
A simple warning trap that ties a rope along an exit (tripwire) and makes some noise by clattering bones together when tripped. Could do for inside-to-outside exits, or any rooms with a lot of trees.
Another trap that works with a tripwire, but is attached to something large and hanging high, like a log, which swings down when the wire is tripped.
Punji pits would be awesome.
These would be cool, but to be avoided, use scan or dexterity. With scan, the trap would be seen nearly every time and the way could be traversed safely (if seen) by the scanee and his followers. With dexterity, you might see it at the last moment and manage to avoid it, personally.
Pitfalls would also function like this, and could be built in sizes of tiny, small, medium, and large, with corrasponding delays. The sizes would indicate what could and could not fall down the trap. A tiny trap could make a rat fall in it, or a jozhal, but not a halfling. A small trap could trap both the rat and the halfling and small dwarves, but not larger dwarves or humans, and so on and so forth. The exit size would be different, for these traps.
However, pit-traps should have a random SMALL (note, emphasis on SMALL) chance of injuring a person/mount moving through the area, to simulate stepping into a hole and turning an ankle/getting sharpened sticks in the sole of the foot.
As opposed to trapping them every single time they fail a perception check, or as opposed to ignoring them because the trap is smaller than required to actually trap the beast?
I can simulate all the wonders of traps with half the complication in just one skill.
Let's call it ambush. A ranger uses it while hidden. There's an antecedent delay after which you seem to attack like normal, but with with a markedly shorter delay than your average kill command and your target's shield use and parry skills are heavily penalized for a short period of time.
Make the message something like, " Someone springs up and charges toward another someone." Give it a command emote function that removes that first bit and could go something like this, "Half-running and half-sliding down the shifting, sandy slope of a dune, someone charges toward someone else."
Better. Much better. Now we won't have half-assed engineers digging up holes everywhere.
Dalmeth's ambush idea could easily be used in conjunction with hide/sneak/shadow.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 13, 2008, 01:07:18 AM
These would be cool, but to be avoided, use scan or dexterity. With scan, the trap would be seen nearly every time and the way could be traversed safely (if seen) by the scanee and his followers.
Now here's what I don't like.... Why should this trap be seen nearly every time? What if the ranger was consciously trying to trap another human?
Then craft a trap for a human. I'm asking for ideas here, not posting solutions specifically. A trap for an animal should be the first thing a ranger can make. Trapping humans should branch later. A trap intended for an animal should tend to avoid the path of a human. A trap for a human is more likely to catch a human than an animal.
The scan idea is to give the human a chance to escape the trap, or avoid a trap that isn't intended for his ass.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 13, 2008, 01:32:56 PM
Then craft a trap for a human. I'm asking for ideas here, not posting solutions specifically. A trap for an animal should be the first thing a ranger can make. Trapping humans should branch later. A trap intended for an animal should tend to avoid the path of a human. A trap for a human is more likely to catch a human than an animal.
The scan idea is to give the human a chance to escape the trap, or avoid a trap that isn't intended for his ass.
Right-o. I've got a little system as how this could work.... I'll post it up as soon as I put it into words. ;D
Ok, nemesis. ;D
The only thing rangers really need is to have the defense nerf revoked.
::)
Bah, why not just rig up some flash powder like everyone else? It'll cook the meat too, so you pretty much kill two tregils with one arrow.
Hmm... thinking out loud:
What is the goal of the trap? It has been discussed that traps would make up for the defense "nerf". So, rangers have sucky defense for a while, but can use a bow something nasty. How about if traps stopped someone from moving for a brief period of time. Maybe enough time to shoot an arrow? Another possibility is a trap that hit for a small amount of damage, but could be poisoned. All traps could be hidden, with a chance to spot them. If spotted they could be disarmed or destroyed... by people with certain skills.
They'd just need to be challenging to make and set, so the world wasn't just littered with traps everywhere. ;D
Another possibility is let rangers give their mounts orders. :-X
Another possibility would be simply to revoke the defense nerf, instead of resorting to a bunch of clunky workarounds for it.
So far, all the suggestions strike me as slightly ridiculous, in that the circumstances under which they would be useful would be so narrow that the addition of the skill would just be tossing a dog a bone to distract him. ::)
Let's give a class with practically zero defense a skill that takes a lot of preparation to use, takes a long time to get any good at, and has a pretty slim chance of working against anything with half a brain. Sounds pretty fucking useless, to me.
Actually, the biggest problem I think rangers have is that they have a backwards branching tree.
Meaning, Almost all the skills they branch, really the should start with and and the ones that they start with should be the branched.
If 95% of them were reversed, you all would actually be happy and not so worried about the defense nerf or traps or what have you.
Quote from: X-D on August 13, 2008, 05:30:10 PM
Actually, the biggest problem I think rangers have is that they have a backwards branching tree.
Meaning, Almost all the skills they branch, really the should start with and and the ones that they start with should be the branched.
If 95% of them were reversed, you all would actually be happy and not so worried about the defense nerf or traps or what have you.
Ha, yeah. If they started with parry, I probably wouldn't be bitching about the defense nerf. Good point. As for the rest of the skills they branch...not so much. The ranger skill tree is about the easiest mundane tree to fully branch out, hands down. Hell, most of them you can apparently branch out without ever even leaving the city to engage in "ranger-like" activities. I'm not sure how much sense -that- makes, but there you have it.
That may be true, but not the point.
Without going into the actual tree. There are many things that you can do from the start, but you cannot make the things to do them till you have mastered the first, this is silly and backwards.
Everyone knows rangers have stealth skills, but if you think about the ones you start with and what they branch, well, it makes no sense going that direction either. Going the other direction makes more sense.
Not to mention, you would have to leave the city and do ranger things to make the branches if you switched them around.
Quote from: Synthesis on August 13, 2008, 04:42:16 PM
Another possibility would be simply to revoke the defense nerf, instead of resorting to a bunch of clunky workarounds for it.
Heh, this sounds like a program architecture debate at work. Everyone gets all excited about how to fix a problem, until some asks
why are we having this discussion? Just put things back and the problem is solved. I'm not saying that is the case here, but it just reminded of the old "yes we can, but should we" question.
Even so, it still would kinda make sense for rangers to eventually learn how to set snare/deadfall/pit traps and things of that nature.
I don't think the ranger class is lacking at all, but traps would be cool. I'd want it to be something where you set it up, leave it, and come back later hopefully to find an ensnared animal. I'd prefer that to anything that worked as quickly as crafting does.
Quote from: flurry on August 17, 2008, 01:11:06 PM
I don't think the ranger class is lacking at all, but traps would be cool. I'd want it to be something where you set it up, leave it, and come back later hopefully to find an ensnared animal. I'd prefer that to anything that worked as quickly as crafting does.
Precisely. I did not make this thread to counter defense nerfs, as some think I did. I did this because Rangers should be able to have snares, plain and simple. Rangers are supposed to hunt Animals first, people second. So surely, they could figure out a way to lay a pitfall to do their job?
It'd be neat if one of the range specializations dealt in the setting of snares and traps, but not necessarily only the kind people are thinking of.
What if a ranger could set a snare/trap in a wilderness room that had signs of wildlife, similar to foraging in a room that seemed to have wood, stone, or another resource. They'd set the trap and then, every hour, it'd have a chance of snaring a critter. Once snared, the critter would remain in the trap until either someone (i.e. the hunter, another traveler, or a predator) found them, or until the trap broke (i.e. time elapsed).
That way, a ranger could set traps around a certain area and then check them the next morning to see what may have been yielded from those rooms. Similar to foraging, but with a longer turnaround rate.
-LoD
Quote from: LoD on August 17, 2008, 05:07:35 PM
It'd be neat if one of the range specializations dealt in the setting of snares and traps, but not necessarily only the kind people are thinking of.
What if a ranger could set a snare/trap in a wilderness room that had signs of wildlife, similar to foraging in a room that seemed to have wood, stone, or another resource. They'd set the trap and then, every hour, it'd have a chance of snaring a critter. Once snared, the critter would remain in the trap until either someone (i.e. the hunter, another traveler, or a predator) found them, or until the trap broke (i.e. time elapsed).
That way, a ranger could set traps around a certain area and then check them the next morning to see what may have been yielded from those rooms. Similar to foraging, but with a longer turnaround rate.
-LoD
I think this is the best version of the idea yet, and others PCs, and VNPCs, and NPCs predators should defiantly have a change of capturing the traps prize or destroying the trap.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on August 17, 2008, 06:40:01 PM
Quote from: LoD on August 17, 2008, 05:07:35 PM
It'd be neat if one of the range specializations dealt in the setting of snares and traps, but not necessarily only the kind people are thinking of.
What if a ranger could set a snare/trap in a wilderness room that had signs of wildlife, similar to foraging in a room that seemed to have wood, stone, or another resource. They'd set the trap and then, every hour, it'd have a chance of snaring a critter. Once snared, the critter would remain in the trap until either someone (i.e. the hunter, another traveler, or a predator) found them, or until the trap broke (i.e. time elapsed).
That way, a ranger could set traps around a certain area and then check them the next morning to see what may have been yielded from those rooms. Similar to foraging, but with a longer turnaround rate.
-LoD
I think this is the best version of the idea yet, and others PCs, and VNPCs, and NPCs predators should defiantly have a change of capturing the traps prize or destroying the trap.
It would certainly lead to interesting IC competition and possibilities.
Such as two rival hunters who claim the same hunting territory.
I like it!
You'd have to give rangers two skillsets.
Trapmaking - Constructing traps from raw materials.
Trapping - Laying traps.
I like snares better than pit traps. Snares are fairly simple to make, and don't require a shovel.
A snare might trigger on a larger creature, or one with sharp pincers, claws, teeth, or knives, in which case the creature should be able to break free in a few rounds . . . er, a few minutes. :) A PC could get trapped in a snare, but as long as they have a knife (or similar cutting weapon) they can cut themselves free quite quickly. If they don't have a knife they can still escape, but disassembling a trap without a knife takes a little longer. (They can also free a mount or a buddy who is snared, in a similar amount of time). This delay while the creature is trapped gives the ranger a chance to use archery to kill or wound it, before it can charge in to attack or run away. While snared they can not move out of the room (obviously) and they suffer a small defensive penalty because they can not dodge as effectively.
Instead of setting the snare in the room, set it "on" an exit. Or make snares set in the "middle" of a room only able to catch virtual game, while exit snares can catch coded NPCs and PCs (and maybe virtual game too?). You can set a snare on each exit, possibly even more than one. Creatures who make a perception check will notice that, for example, the north exit is trapped. Their chance to notice the snare would be increased both by scanning, or by watching in the direction of the snare -- attentiveness pays off. Then they can either choose to make a detour, take a chance moving in the direction anyway, or perhaps try to deliberately trigger, disarm, disable or disassemble the trap, depending on their skills.
Traveling speed might effect your chance of seeing or being caught in snares as well. You are most likely to spot and avoid snares when you are sneaking, and least likely to spot or avoid snares when you are running/fleeing. (Delves are the people most likely to be running, but they are also the people most likely to be sneaking, so it evens out. People on mounts sometimes run, but never sneak).
Ambient visibility might modify the chance to spot it as well. It is easier to spot a snare on a clear day than on a dusty night.
Skill_Snare_Making -
A basic crafting skill. You takes some twine, rope, leather cord or possibly strong vines (you can't just use grass, you need to use the rope-making skill to turn the grass into twine first) and fashion a snare. You get a snare object. On a failure you get "a tangled length of twine" or whatever. You untangle it and try again with the same rope, snare making rarely renders component unusable. A good quality snare may last longer when triggered or be more difficult to cut yourself free than a shabby snare. It will also last longer without being triggered. Eventually any snare will be tangled by wind, buried by sand, or nibbled by insects, but a good quality snare will last longer before it expires. As your skill progresses, you can make a greater variety of snares. Initially you can just craft basic snares, later you can make more complex "recipes" that involve adding bells or other noisemakers to make an Alarm Snare, or add sharp bits of glass or obsidian to make a snare that actually does a little damage. The damage type snares could also be poisoned, using the poisoning skill. This would be a starting skill for Rangers, a more advanced skill for Assassins and Merchants. (Yes, merchants. If they have already mastered skills like Basket_Weaving and Rope_Making, then are good with their hands and they know a lot about how ropes and knots work).
Skill_Snare_Setting -
You take your snare object, and attach it to a room or exit. This can be used indoors, but it can not be attached to objects like chests -- you need the trapping skill for that. (If used indoors it can still catch virtual game like rats and other vermin). How well you set the snare could modify how difficult it is to spot, and how difficult it is to disarm the snare. A person good at snare setting can unset a snare without damaging it, salvaging the snare to be used again later. This skill would branch off of Snare_Making for everyone that gets that skill.
Forget DersertMan!!!
Angela Christine for president!!!
No offense James. ;)
I think we are going to have to avoid pit traps...
The humanoids we have on Armageddon already are so stupid they walk into giant holes and canyons in the middle the road (You T-Lands players know what I'm talking about)
Imagine the chaos provided by setting pits that would actually be hard to see.
I dont even want to think about it.
(Yes, that was a plug against the silly holes people fall into, that noone with half a brain would be stupid enough to ride a kank into. Those holes in the middle of roads and crap are some of the cheesiest things I have seen in game, completely stupid.)
Scan would take care of ranger traps.
As for the holes in the ground ... learn to read the room desc. I've only seen one room that didn't indicate that the trap was there, and that's been typoed.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 18, 2008, 04:40:50 PM
Scan would take care of ranger traps.
As for the holes in the ground ... learn to read the room desc. I've only seen one room that didn't indicate that the trap was there, and that's been typoed.
I have only found one also, I typoed it both time I fell into it.
I know, stupidity on the players part.
But my PC shouldnt have to suffer for my stupidity.
Quote from: Desertman on August 19, 2008, 04:59:40 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 18, 2008, 04:40:50 PM
Scan would take care of ranger traps.
As for the holes in the ground ... learn to read the room desc. I've only seen one room that didn't indicate that the trap was there, and that's been typoed.
I have only found one also, I typoed it both time I fell into it.
I know, stupidity on the players part.
But my PC shouldnt have to suffer for my stupidity.
I believe the messages go away from dusk 'till dawn in the rooms prior to the holes even if ther is minimal light to see, but looking in that direction still works--last time I was there, anyway.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on August 19, 2008, 05:24:09 PM
I believe the messages go away from dusk 'till dawn in the rooms prior to the holes even if ther is minimal light to see, but looking in that direction still works--last time I was there, anyway.
If you're out there in the dark, sandy night, you deserve to fall into a hole.
I think it would be interesting to have a different class of creatures that emerge in a room and then "wander away" that are very hard to detect without scan. They wouldn't necessarily be hard to kill, but pretty hard to hunt for someone without hunting talents. Then you could add a lot of unique little critters that vary from being pretty common to being extremely rare and difficult to detect that could be skinned for valuable raw materials. Kind of "lower importance" species at least to fighting types... small game, certain birds, etc.
Imagine if you are assigned to hunt something common like a scrab and you are a warrior.... no problem. Now imagine you are in alaska and you have to hunt some sort of rare lynx. Very, very different propositions. Whoever made these "secondary" mobs could tailor them to different regions / ecologies.
Quote from: Tisiphone on August 19, 2008, 06:51:23 PM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on August 19, 2008, 05:24:09 PM
I believe the messages go away from dusk 'till dawn in the rooms prior to the holes even if ther is minimal light to see, but looking in that direction still works--last time I was there, anyway.
If you're out there in the dark, sandy night, you deserve to fall into a hole.
Errr... my characters don't, they REMEMBER where deep dark pits are with spiky rocks pointing for people to impale themselves upon. Just trying to help out D-man a bit. ;)
Quote from: hcwalker on August 19, 2008, 09:25:37 PM
I think it would be interesting to have a different class of creatures that emerge in a room and then "wander away" that are very hard to detect without scan. They wouldn't necessarily be hard to kill, but pretty hard to hunt for someone without hunting talents. Then you could add a lot of unique little critters that vary from being pretty common to being extremely rare and difficult to detect that could be skinned for valuable raw materials. Kind of "lower importance" species at least to fighting types... small game, certain birds, etc.
Imagine if you are assigned to hunt something common like a scrab and you are a warrior.... no problem. Now imagine you are in alaska and you have to hunt some sort of rare lynx. Very, very different propositions. Whoever made these "secondary" mobs could tailor them to different regions / ecologies.
The truth.
I just watched the movie The Hunted a few weeks ago. In the DVD extras is an interview with Tom Brown Jr., who runs survival schools (because his wife made him get a real job, or at least a real income). The movie is something like Assassin/Rebel vs. Ranger. It's pretty awesome.
Lots of traps in that movie. Realistic ones. I'm going to mine it for ideas.
Morrolan
There are a few creatures that require the scan skill for regular hunting.
More would be nice, though.
Especially around Allanak.
Quote from: Synthesis on August 21, 2008, 01:02:15 PM
There are a few creatures that require the scan skill for regular hunting.
More would be nice, though.
Especially around Allanak.
QFT. I always love it when my scan reaches the point that I can see a certain "coloration" of an animal that I can usually see without it... it makes me warm inside
Edited to add: I'd settle for desert rats or tiny lizards. Or hand sized tarantulas, maybe baby cousins of their badass family out in you-know-which-direction.