-Borsail
-Lack of Flour
-Lack of Natural Resources in General
-Poor Morale
-Conclusion
1) Borsail
Borsail was the top noble House of Allanak, suddenly it has been completely destroyed, yet we have seen minimal IC repercussions for this action. While Sath can, and I assume has taken over the slave trade, they do not have as near as many resources, contacts, facilities, funds and experience and so on that Borsail once did. Likewise, the NPCs are still Borsail NPCs that do construction in the city. Who is funding and maintaining the Arena? The city? The same city funding repairing the damage from the war they brought on themselves? This is like if the DOW crashed today, and we saw no repercussions. It's just not fathomable.
2) Flour
Allanak had a cut back in flour and we haven't seen flour since. Flour has for a long time been the cheapest resource of a semi nutritional meal. Cultures have tried to survive on it alone for centuries in real life. Suddenly, Allanak's primary and cheapest food source has been snatched from the hands of an already financially devastated and sometimes starving caste of grunts.
3) Lack of Natural Resources
Kanks. No one sold as many kanks as Allanak. They specialized in the best kanks in Zalanthas, suddenly this resource of income that appears to be sponsored by the Templarate is depleted and they have come to only rely mostly on beetles. In addition, the sell of honey, shell and meat from kanks has been slashed entirely. No kank meat, no flour. As well, mounts rely on food just like any other living thing. How DO they feed beetles the massive amounts of food they require to survive? There is no grass... last time I checked beetles do not eat sand. Though it WOULD be nice if they did.
Water, is not abundant either, the only logical conclusion I can make is that a massive amount of water is supplied by the mages of the city working almost constantly to water all of the humans and the animals in the city.
Wood and Meat. How realistic is it that everything be built out of hide and bone in Nak? Especially considering that there is not much game around Allanak, and almost none of it consists of anything with a hide or BONES, unless you actually count the humans that some how continue to reside here. So far I see that wood and flour are now to be two resources that the south relies on the north to obtain. It seems in every instance here that the north should have the upper hand. And not just slightly, they should have it almost entirely.
Herbs. Almost no medicinal/nutritional herbs grow around the south. And the environment is such that only special plants similar to cacti could flourish, however, instead of there being different foliage between the north and south, there is once again - none.
About the only resource that Allanak has going for it is obsidian (glass) and chitin which seems hardly enough for an entire already impoverished city to survive especially in the face of such devastation.
4) Morale
Yes, I know when you are raised in a system that is acceptable it is sound and comfortable. It's the same reason I don't save up and book a flight across the world to London even though I think it's a great society that cares for its citizens and has minimal violence. I see this as the same reason people from Allanak don't just pick up and wander off to Tuluk. However, in the face of devastation and refugees already fleeing there, I don't see how morale could be lower for the city to the point it would not evoke civil war or at least duress and lack of loyalty. Or how could it not at least cause the city to collapse all together as its own citizens should not, under the current conditions that I've mentioned be even barely capable of feeding themselves. (Much less children, mates or animals). The only reason I can see that they do not rebel is that they are terrified, as they should be.
5) Conclusion
My conclusion is simply this, in the face of such financial and physical devastations, why does there seem to be almost no repercussions to this in game economically? In Tuluk we see downtrodden refugees yet Allanak seems to function as well as it always has... somehow. Even after having to rely on another city state to feed those that have fled from the disaster wreaked upon the city.
What can we do to change this and cause a more realistic reaction? Or should, at this point, flour now be available once again. Tuluk has already breed a new mount in the wake of the kank extinction yet the south remains indignantly the same even though it's citizens were already in great poverty. Why have their been no IG reactions to reflect this other than the visible destruction of one or two squares? I would like to see acts of conquest and concern from the Pcs and their leaders.
Also in regards to the Alliance with one city having fallen so very far into devastation... instead of allying, would this not be the perfect time to react to the city that has been your mortal enemy for centuries instead of just rolling over, taking their refugees and turning into buddies? This of course is not for me to decide. This is for the IG leaders and ultimately the immortals to decide. However, I've just been considering this and I do not think the current route we are on, is the one most realistic by far from what I can tell.
Regarding #1. Find out IC.
Other than that, you have some great points. Do, however, remember that Allanak has always survived tough times, for some reason. Also remember that Tuluki citizens are not any better off than Allanaki citizens, outside of the flour situation. It looks that way, but they ain't. All commoners are broke. Some just revel in it, and others try to cover it up. Guess who's who.
Find out IC.
Quote from: Bebop on August 10, 2008, 11:55:48 PM=
1) Borsail
Borsail was the top noble House of Allanak, suddenly it has been completely destroyed, yet we have seen minimal IC repercussions for this action. While Sath can, and I assume has taken over the slave trade, they do not have as near as many resources, contacts, facilities, funds and experience and so on that Borsail once did. Likewise, the NPCs are still Borsail NPCs that do construction in the city. Who is funding and maintaining the Arena? The city? The same city funding repairing the damage from the war they brought on themselves? This is like if the DOW crashed today, and we saw no repercussions. It's just not fathomable.
The Borsail estate was destroyed and a large number of Borsail blood died (edit: and slaves and servants, etc). People in Allanak that care (I imagine joe commoner might not care or understand) would still notice that their slaving pavilion is still active, the Borsail Wyvern barracks is still active and that they haven't been completely destroyed.
As far as the rest of the post, yeah, people in Allanak should be freaking out. I agree. You forgot "There's a big pool of lava/volcano in the middle of the city."
Quote from: Myrdryn on August 11, 2008, 12:22:07 AM
As far as the rest of the post, yeah, people in Allanak should be freaking out. I agree. You forgot "There's a big pool of lava/volcano in the middle of the city."
This didn't strike me as common knowledge.
It certianly is. The scene is pretty much open to anyone who cares to observe, and there were enough commoners there that th story would have spread and gotten even worse by now.
Also, Sath does not do slaves. Kasix does.
A certain PC did not know this untill another PC pointed it out.
Was a small, short but never the less, good scene for RP.
So while it probably is common knowledge for most. It is -certainly- still something that could be found out in game.
And I usually hate "Find out IC" answers.
So come on Allanak!
Start freaking out already!
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 11, 2008, 12:31:40 AM
The scene is pretty much open to anyone who cares to observe
Not so much...most people don't have access to that part of the city.
...alright, buddy...
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 11, 2008, 12:46:58 AM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 11, 2008, 12:31:40 AM
The scene is pretty much open to anyone who cares to observe
Not so much...most people don't have access to that part of the city.
Actually it isn't something that would be restricted to the noble quarter. But I don't really want to say much more about it right now. But if you know where to look, there is ample evidence.
SPOILER ALERT:
....go look past the Arena on Arena road, dimwits. Don't you people ever -explore- the damn city?
Or, uh, check the room ONE ROOM OFF CARAVAN ROAD that has evidence of Bad Things.
Re: the general topic, your answers are basically...
-Magick
-Magick
-Magick
-Openly Permitted Magickers in Giant Quantities
-The meat, bones, and skin of a single mekillot can, according to the docs, feed and outfit a small army.
Ooh, forgot about that one. Good call.
Bah! Even magick wins threads much better than any mundane arguments will ever do *grins*
Quote from: Synthesis on August 11, 2008, 01:09:41 AM
Don't you people ever -explore- the damn city?
Oh. Heh. Not in quite a while, apparently. :-[
Stay on topic please? I really didn't want this to be about Borsail/Pools of Lava... so much as about the general economics of Allanak.
I haven't ever actually played a character based out of Allanak. But this seems way too apt. Or at least from what I've seen with various tribals and Tulukis I've had that have visited the city-state. The entire state of it makes no sense to me. I had my second or third character, and a few since then visit, and I pretty much refuse to make a character that starts in Allanak now.
*now for a mini-rant/thought*- how many more of the 'too-many-magicker' threads will there be when the link page from TMC suggests that new players make a character in Allanak? I mean, its the single most likely place outside a few relatively iso tribal areas, to find magickers. *end of thought/rant*
I mean, thats all just kinda my take on it, but even fairly soon after the 'fire from the sky' incident, around when I first visited, everyone was so calm and settled about the state of things. I feel more affected by the state of Allanak up in Tuluk where there're various refugees from there, then down in Allanak where it seems to have been swept very neatly under the rug.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on August 11, 2008, 09:07:27 AM
I had my second or third character, and a few since then visit, and I pretty much refuse to make a character that starts in Allanak now.
Well then that is really your loss. Allanak is great, and thriving, and just represents Zalanthas to me so fully it's hard to put into words.
Yes it does have it's problems and it is very questionable how things are going about right now but I suppose we just have to suspend disbelief until we hear from up high. I myself am curious about the flour issue, it would be nice to have another mount added if only for the fun factor, and I thought the Borsail were basically defunct and either in hiding or something else after the event but it appears I was wrong. The crews definitely have been confusing me.
Brandon
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on August 11, 2008, 09:07:27 AM
I pretty much refuse to make a character that starts in Allanak now.
You'll have more fun in ARM if you don't let OOC prejudices limit you. I have a rep on this forum of (previously at least) being a huge Tuluk rah-rah, and yet I have played extensively in Allanak also and love it for its own unique qualities.
As to the thrust of this thread...I just don't really see a problem. There were effects of the gith invasion, and there still are effects of the gith invasion; Allanak is still struggling with recovery. If the question is really, "OMG shouldn't Allanak be totally destroyed?!?!," I'll say no, it shouldn't. For one thing, although the invasion and the kank dieoff and other IC events have had repercussions, PC leaders in the city have worked very, very hard on IC solutions (are still working hard) and have averted many consequences. Example, the PC defense of the city from the gith invasion was actually incredibly successful, and though there were lives (PC, NPC, and VNPC) lost, the overall property damage was small compared to what it could have been from having 10,000 gith coming out of the sewers.
Another point to consider: With 2.ARM still not anywhere in sight, the playerbase needs viable city locations in which to play. Allanak is one of these, and it's needed. Although we know there's going to be no Allanak, and no Tuluk, and no desert elves, and no halflings in 2.ARM, all of these are still in the game because we need them. (And because IC events have not fully unfolded, but I suspect that's partly because we still NEED these options.)
Holy IC misinformation, Batman.
There's not much I can respond to in this thread besides saying I wish the city was this nice happy place with no reflected problems that everyone says it is.
There should be more chaos. :o
Quote from: Sokotra on August 11, 2008, 01:59:57 PM
There should be more chaos. :o
There should always be more chaos.
Quote from: Yam on August 11, 2008, 02:08:51 PM
Quote from: Sokotra on August 11, 2008, 01:59:57 PM
There should be more chaos. :o
There should always be more chaos.
I'll think I'll cause some chaos....
...if I can get away with it before I get insta-slain because there isn't enough chaos (like there should be) to keep everyone too preoccupied to be able to deal with me. ;)
The survival of Allanak, and surrounding areas, have always been a bit of an enigma to me. Half a million people is a lot of people, it is more than my RL city has. Even when they were virtually importing food from both the northlands and Red Storm East, the population seemed to be greater than the environment could support. It is a terrible place to have a city. I have a theory, a couple of theories.
1. The south used to be lusher. Not much of a stretch here, you can find room descriptions that indicate the land was more fertile even a few hundred years ago. Not a steamy jungle paradise, but perhaps as fertile as the grasslands east of Tuluk. When Tektolnes founded the town, it was a good place to put a town and it prospered. There was probably a big-ass spring, oasis, or other access to the underground aquifer.* He's pretty good with the earth moving (see: burying Stinal and Luirs Dragonthall using magick) so he could probably enlarge/enhance the aquifer access point. When the current walls were built the land was able to support many productive farms and ranches, the hunting was pretty good, and dieing of starvation/dehydration was quite rare, even among the poor. Gradually 2 things happened: the population increased, and the land died.
1a. Humans breed. We're good at it. No one wants to live outside the walls, so the population density kept increasing inside the walls. It is possible that both the Rinth and the Templar's Quarter were later extensions to the walls, since they are both self-contained and fully walled districts that would leave a completely walled rectangle if they were removed. Living space was precious, so single family huts gradually gave way to crowded tenements. Eventually space was too valuable, and no one could afford to keep a little kitchen garden, or even an outhouse, of their own. Meanwhile, the population was approaching the limit of what the natural water source could support. In the beginning water may have been freely available at public fountains, but as demand rose they had to raise prices to limit waste. And keep raising prices. Until today, when poor families may not be able to afford enough water to keep the whole family alive. Water elementalists probably do contribute to the water supply. You never see water overflowing from the Vivaduan temple and running down the street, so chances are good that there is a drain in there somewhere, to catch excess production. Still, water is in scarce supply. This would have forced the farmlands to shift to growing the least water-intensive crops they could. So no more variety of grains, fruits and vegetables, instead they seem to grow a drought tolerant variety of wheat exclusively.
1b. The land died. The insatiable thirst of the growing city may have had something to do with this. If they are pumping enough water out of the aquifer, that will lower the level of the aquifer, dry the land, and eventually kill the plants above. The existence of a the sorcerer-king himself probably had something to do with it too. Unless Tektolnes is a dedicated Preserver, which seems unlikely, he must be defiling the land for power. We don't see piles of ash lying around, but Tektolnes is the big dog, he probably found a way to draw power from a larger area than just the "room" he is in, draining it in tiny, almost imperceptible ways - maybe that is why he needed the tall tower, to increase his line of sight and distance-draining capabilities. If he can drain anything he can see, then from his tower he can probably use the land from the saltflats in the east to the canyons in the west, from the Red Desert in the north to the Silt Sea in the south, a frikkin' huge area. At first this may have seemed like a foolproof plan with no downside, the land could easily recover from the proportionally tiny amounts of power he was draining. But as the city grew, the number of Templars drawing power from him grew, so the amount of power he was drawing from the land increased. Still not enough in any one spot to insta-kill the local plants and cause significant ash deposits, but enough to drain the vitality and fertility of the land faster than the land could recover. Gradually the cumulative damage began to render some areas completely lifeless, then the growing desert claimed them and turned them into the dunes we know and love today. The loss of fertile grasslands eventually made ranching and nomadic herding untenable, there simply isn't enough naturally occurring plant life to support large herds. At this point most of the damage is irreversible, too much biodiversity has been lost.
2. The land was artificially harshened, because we like it harsh. We want a barren wasteland populated by monsters. We want a filthy and corrupt city seething with danger. We want a city
in a barren wasteland. Even if it doesn't make sense. ;D
It never rains. At one point there may simply have been no coded rain, because hardly any MUDs bother coding in precipitation . . . but somewhere along the line the lack of coded rain became a belief that it never rains in Zalanthas, or at least that it hasn't rained anywhere in the known world for hundreds of years. Huge volumes of water must be coming from somewhere (underground? elemental plane of water?) to keep half a million people alive, and some of that water is evaporating (if nothing else, at least in the form of sweat and pee). Perhaps the moisture is being magickally sucked out of the air, or perhaps it does rain somewhere downwind, outside of the known world. Whatever.
We have giant monsters, but suspiciously little for the giant monsters to eat. Can scrabs really subsist on a diet consisting of nothing but newbies? :P Sure, in the real world bears can live for months in the spring on a diet of grass, roots and the occasional rat, but even grass, roots and rats are pretty rare around Allanak. There are very few small game animals, either coded NPCs or as part of the environment. Ok, maybe you don't see them because the survivors survived because they are hard to see. But even mice would have trouble living off the natural plant life in the area, so I'm not sure what the invisible small animals are eating. Sure, mekillots eat salt worms which eat . . . salt, and silt horrors eat things we don't see that live in the silt, but the scrabs, giant beetles, and taratulas are a bit of a mystery.
We have farms that grow wheat exclusively, but we have a grocery store that doesn't sell flour, and does sell things like cheese and fruit. Umm. I have no idea. The government owns all the wheat and right now chooses not to sell any of it to commoners, ok, but where is all the other stuff that is not brought in by PCs coming from?
We have a fantasy setting. It is fantastic.
*
I am assuming the existence of an underground aquifer, because without rain or an underground water source there would be not plant life at all in the south.
I'm kind of with AC. The economics of Zalanthas never have made sense, so this latest change and lack of more than cosmetic repercussions bothers me little, excepting lost opportunities for roleplay.
That said, reading this thread has given me an -awesome- idea for a white-robe.
I've always imagined that the scrabs, giant beetles, and tarantulas ate various little virtual npc critters like desert rats or other medium sized insects and stuff. I'm sure the desert is crawling with fist-sized or head-sized (or bigger) insects and other creatures that the bigger beasts can live off of other than just humanoids. Many may not be seen because they burrow under the sand, but yeah, it would be nice to see these things once in a while. Especially if something like wild escru or some other deer-sized creature doesn't exist (or won't be codedly introduced) in those parts.
Quote from: Tisiphone on August 12, 2008, 12:04:20 PM
That said, reading this thread has given me an -awesome- idea for a white-robe.
An environmentalist Lirathan?
A population-thinning nihilist Maltheist?
I wouldn't be against changes in the gameworld to show these and to make it more obvious to PCs in the city. More crime? Higher prices? I don't think it is too IC to say that there are many more soldiers patrolling the streets which does make sense. Some echos or added room descriptions showing the starving vNPCs would be awesome. And many say how easy obsidian can be made by some players..maybe an idea could be to lower the amount paid by some of those endeavors(such as lower the price that the Office of Mining pays for obsidian).
Quote from: Ourla on August 12, 2008, 03:12:07 PM
Quote from: Tisiphone on August 12, 2008, 12:04:20 PM
That said, reading this thread has given me an -awesome- idea for a white-robe.
An environmentalist Lirathan?
[/quote
A -southern- white-robe. And yes, I know those aren't open for play. More's the pity.
Step 1: punch a hole to the elemental plain of water under a city and enslave everyone you can catch with a create food spell
Step 2: burn the countryside
Step 3: profit
Quote from: Sokotra on August 12, 2008, 12:22:40 PM
I've always imagined that the scrabs, giant beetles, and tarantulas ate various little virtual npc critters like desert rats or other medium sized insects and stuff. I'm sure the desert is crawling with fist-sized or head-sized (or bigger) insects and other creatures that the bigger beasts can live off of other than just humanoids. Many may not be seen because they burrow under the sand, but yeah, it would be nice to see these things once in a while. Especially if something like wild escru or some other deer-sized creature doesn't exist (or won't be codedly introduced) in those parts.
Jeez... I though everyone knew that a scrab's diet consists of three thing: Newbie rangers, 'sid miners, and wannabe rouges.
The economic situation of the game has made some sense in the past. There have been events that players have started, that have caused issues to come up in the game, regarding economics and food supplies and etc.
The COPPER WAR was supposed to be an event that relied on economics and troop control, and all that other jazz. It was supposed to work over time, and be won over by supply routes and the like.
When players have characters that have been in the game for a long time, they come to expect a more dynamic game that they play. Kadians start to get upset when non-kadian shops start selling silk clothes and other designer outfits. Salarr gets angry at Kurac when Kurac sells weapons. Tuluk gets angry at elves when they don't get a thieving tattoo. Etc, etc.
We've had some MAJOR RPTs in Allanak that destroyed MANY troops, MANY soldiers, MANY lands. Red Storm East has been destroyed, and that's where Allanak gets most of its food from. And it feels like the rest of the city hasn't felt it.
I wish that there were dead bodies everywhere, in body pits. Of starving citizens. I wish that there was more taxes on the food goods in Allanak. I wish that the merchant houses in Allanak started to fell the drain of the economy that got FLUSHED when the RPTs happened. I wish that the game was so DYNAMIC that any event that I do will have a ripple affect across the whole known world.
My question is - what do you think, as a playerbase, should be happening in various cities across the known world, because of recent events in the game? Tuluk, Luir's Outpost, Allanak, etc. What happened recently, and how does it affect others? If we give a good enough example, maybe it will get implemented, and the game will become more flexible. Isn't that why we play?
It should be pointed out that Allanak's population has dwindled substantially along with the food supply.
Between the deaths from the gith invasion and the exodus of refugees to Tuluk afterwards, it's no surprise that the city needs less food than before. Whether it balances the food supply loss, who knows, but it must make it less severe.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 20, 2008, 02:01:54 AM
It should be pointed out that Allanak's population has dwindled substantially along with the food supply.
Between the deaths from the gith invasion and the exodus of refugees to Tuluk afterwards, it's no surprise that the city needs less food than before. Whether it balances the food supply loss, who knows, but it must make it less severe.
Tektolnes says, in sirihish:
"What is the estimated loss of flour, templar."
The templar says, in sirihish:
"Enough to feed 15,000 people, Highlord."
Tektolnes says, in sirihish:
"And the gith war fatality count?"
The templar says, in sirihish:
"15,000 people." :P
That's true. There's refugees in Tuluk.
Does the loss of life make Allanak a less powerful citystate now, against Luir's Outpost and Tuluk?
Should there be less Soldiers on the streets, and more crime? Or have they recruited enough soldiers to keep up their lines?
Does Tuluk feel any pressure from the refugees?
In my opinion, Tuluk shouldn't feel any pressure from the extra people in regards to food. Perhaps there's something going on with the politics and power structures, but certainly not the food sources.
In my opinion, Allanak should have less soldiers on the streets, and the price of food should go up a tiny bit. There should be more taxes on the merchant houses to bring in more gear, in order to pay for the refitting of the soldiers they loss, and to pay for more food sources to come into the city.
In my opinion, Red Storm should be full of refugees too, if they aren't already, and the price of food there should go up as well.
In my opinion, Luir's Outpost doesn't matter.
Quote from: mansa on August 20, 2008, 02:12:44 AM
In my opinion, Red Storm should be full of refugees too, if they aren't already, and the price of food there should go up as well.
When a recent character of mine was having difficulty renting an apartment in Red Storm (due probably to the changes in apartment code), I attempted to ICly explain the situation by bitching about how stupid refugees from Storm East were taking up all the good housing spots.
The guy I was talking to didn't seem to understand why there might be refugees. :[
Quote from: mansa on August 20, 2008, 01:52:56 AM
We've had some MAJOR RPTs in Allanak that destroyed MANY troops, MANY soldiers, MANY lands.
You're vastly overestimating the number of troops killed in the gith invasion. Those of us who were involved know that the number of troops killed was in the low thousands. I.e., not very many, versus something like 10k gith. The low death count was due to the actions of the PCs involved.
And aren't you a huge advocate for having the actions of PCs matter?
Mansa is a huge advocate for having the actions of PCs matter.
Honestly, I wasn't involved in the last RPTs. My butt hurt when my character was killed and I stopped playing for a year.
But, people in this thread have posted an idea that the world around them is not being represented correctly from the events that occurred in it. I'm trying to ask the fellow players what they think should be happening to the world around us due to events that have happened. Didn't at least a legion of soldiers die in the fight?
The GDB is not the place to discuss recent IC info, even if the events you are discussing are well known.
The staff is working to ensure the world is represented as it should be. Play according to what the world shows. Much of what I have seen accepted as fact in this thread is indeed not correct.