I was doing some cooking in game and had a thought. I was thinking it might be cool that if you had a craft skill raised to a certain point it would give you some hints as to what other ingredients you might need to craft an item. Obviously it would only hint to items under your current crafting skill level so for a example a person that isn't very good with cook that had an egg would get the standard:
<craft egg>
You don't think you could craft that into anything.
But a person a little better with it might get:
<craft egg>
You think you could do something with that if you had some flour
And a really skilled cook would get:
<craft egg>
You think with flour you could make a pastry-encased, hard-boiled egg from that.
Could also maybe set it up with a cap so you could never get hints on really tough crafting recipes. I just think a really skilled crafter of any type might be better able to figure out how to make new things. While a person newer at something might have to peck around and guess. Maybe even add it to part of the analyze skill or make it a new skill and give it to the Tinker subguild to make it less useless. Just a thought...
I like this, mainly because it seems realistic.
As it is now, we just run around like chickens with our heads cut off, randomly throwing crap together and hoping it codedly fits.
Where as if we were in the actual world of Zalanthas, we would have an idea already about craftables.
That is to say...IRL I dont go to Home Depot and randomly throw stuff in my cart and hope when I get home I can figure out how to put some of it together into a finished item.
I can walk around and say to myself..."To build a bird house I would probably need some nails, some planks of wood, a circular saw,,,ect"
The above would be more realistic IMO, in general than just randomly gathering/buying materials, and hoping the code is on your side for them to fit together into something.
Quote from: Desertman on July 23, 2008, 11:24:49 AM
Where as if we were in the actual world of Zalanthas, we would have an idea already about craftables.
That is to say...IRL I dont go to Home Depot and randomly throw stuff in my cart and hope when I get home I can figure out how to put some of it together into a finished item.
I can walk around and say to myself..."To build a bird house I would probably need some nails, some planks of wood, a circular saw,,,ect"
This is just so... incredibly wrong.
We aren't talking about crappy birdhouses, we're talking about precision tools. You can buy drywall, you can buy the hanging nails, and you can buy the joint compound, but can you cut it properly, can you hit the nails in so they don't make a mark that's too much trouble to cover up, and do you even know what floating is?
Someone has to show you these things. You can't come up with them on your own. So please use a justification other than realism. We play ignorant commoners, remember?
That's true, Dalmeth, but even us ignorant commoners can reason, improvise, and experiment to figure out how thinks could work.
I'm not sure I'd like to be told which ingredient I need to combine. It's sort of fun (in a frustrating way) to discover the recipes on my own.
On the other hand, the idea itself, would fit my personal preferences well, if the result was tweaked just a tiny bit:
craft egg:
>You think you could do something with this, if combined with something else.
So at least I know it IS craftable, by ME, as long as I find the right "other" ingredient(s). You could even take it a step further, which would make it even MORE useful when you need to combine multiple ingredients:
craft egg bread:
>You can make an egg sandwich.
You think you can do something else with this, if combined with something else.
craft egg bread cheese:
You can make an egg and cheese sandwich.
craft egg bread flint:
You can't do anything with this combination.
Quote from: Dalmeth on July 23, 2008, 11:39:25 AM
Quote from: Desertman on July 23, 2008, 11:24:49 AM
Where as if we were in the actual world of Zalanthas, we would have an idea already about craftables.
That is to say...IRL I dont go to Home Depot and randomly throw stuff in my cart and hope when I get home I can figure out how to put some of it together into a finished item.
I can walk around and say to myself..."To build a bird house I would probably need some nails, some planks of wood, a circular saw,,,ect"
This is just so... incredibly wrong.
We aren't talking about crappy birdhouses, we're talking about precision tools. You can buy drywall, you can buy the hanging nails, and you can buy the joint compound, but can you cut it properly, can you hit the nails in so they don't make a mark that's too much trouble to cover up, and do you even know what floating is?
Someone has to show you these things. You can't come up with them on your own. So please use a justification other than realism. We play ignorant commoners, remember?
Someone has to show you things before you have the ability to do them?
Then I wonder who came up with them the first time?
That sort of puts wrench in the gears of that whole..."inventing" concept.
My point is, it would be easier to assume how to make something IRL looking at actual materials, than it would be to read a text description of several materials and try to figure out how they might fit together.
If you want to argue that you find it just as easy to read a description of a room full of materials and decide what to make out of them, than actually viewing that room full of materials...Well, to each his own.
I personally think viewing crafting materials IRL makes it easier to see potential uses for them.
The proposed above change would be a long step in the direction of bringing that realistic facet to the crafting code, IMO.
Failing at crafting would then make up for the fact that you..."Dont know how to hit the nail on the drywall just right yet"...You can look at the drywall, and the hammer, and the nail, and get a concept of how to hang it, and try it...But you will fail at crafting a few times, before you hang it just right.
Why are we keeping crafting recipes secret again?
Really...
If my character can, he can.. If he can't, he can't..
Currently, if he can and I know the recipe, he can. If he can't and/or I don't know the recipe, he can't. Why secret formulas? The current system punishes newbies. It took about an hour of mine to find out the recipe of a desk, not counting the time I spent trying when I didn't have enough skill to make a desk. Will my next merchant 'try' learning making a desk? Nope. I'll take <materials> and type 'craft <materials>'. I'm not logging in to play puzzle, I'm logging in to play a RP-enforced MUD.
If something's _really_ secret, make up a clan for it, make it a clan-only recipe, so one must be taught the recipe IC, only after when he gets codedly added to the clan and can use the recipe.
Quote from: evil_erdlu on July 23, 2008, 01:13:53 PM
Why are we keeping crafting recipes secret again?
Really...
If my character can, he can.. If he can't, he can't..
Currently, if he can and I know the recipe, he can. If he can't and/or I don't know the recipe, he can't. Why secret formulas? The current system punishes newbies. It took about an hour of mine to find out the recipe of a desk, not counting the time I spent trying when I didn't have enough skill to make a desk. Will my next merchant 'try' learning making a desk? Nope. I'll take <materials> and type 'craft <materials>'. I'm not logging in to play puzzle, I'm logging in to play a RP-enforced MUD.
If something's _really_ secret, make up a clan for it, make it a clan-only recipe, so one must be taught the recipe IC, only after when he gets codedly added to the clan and can use the recipe.
I think it has more to do with the excitement you get when you figure out a new recipe. It is kind of rewarding and fun.
I think the above proposed idea would be a good middle area for keeping that excitement, and also making it a tad more realistic.
I like Lizzie's idea. A lot.
Quote from: Tisiphone on July 23, 2008, 01:32:48 PM
I like Lizzie's idea. A lot.
You mean, you don't like egg and flint sandwiches?
I'm sad, now.
Quote from: Tisiphone on July 23, 2008, 01:32:48 PM
I like Lizzie's idea. A lot.
Dito, plus it is also makes it cooler when your charecters actually come up with the 'secret recepies" that noone else knows.
Very much of a trill, and you guard them like metal. I won't usually even sell stuff that I haven't seen before. I just hord them away until someone my charecters like needs them, or as a special gift.
Quote from: evil_erdlu on July 23, 2008, 01:13:53 PM
Why are we keeping crafting recipes secret again?
So we can all feel like an exclusive long-time-players club?
Quote from: evil_erdlu on July 23, 2008, 01:13:53 PM
The current system punishes newbies.
Amen.
I meant as a PC, not the player. If a Character finds a unique recipe, it would be to his advantage not to share it with all his little buddies.... It is in his best intersts to try to corner a specific market to ensure his survival. I share recipes quite often, but if my charecter figures out how to make a sword type that he hasn't seen before, he's not going to go running around, "Lookie, lookie what I made!" It would be professional suicide.
-FW
P.S. I have never had a PC that had more than one of these at a time.
For clarification, I'm talking from a players perspective. Crafting that makes things impossibly hard for newbies, and yet is a breeze for age-old-players is a) not fair, and b) creates unhappiness unless the newbie quickly gets into a clan/finds a mentor.
As a character, then yes, hold your secrets closely, share with no-one except the mundane cheese sandwiches, horde that egg and cress to yourself!
Quote from: Kyviantre on July 24, 2008, 03:38:04 AM
For clarification, I'm talking from a players perspective. Crafting that makes things impossibly hard for newbies, and yet is a breeze for age-old-players is a) not fair, and b) creates unhappiness unless the newbie quickly gets into a clan/finds a mentor.
The best advice I can offer for the OOC problem of finding new recipes, is to concentrate on one particular crafting skill that interests the player and the PC. Next, find a shop that sells items of the same "craft." See what the shop offers right after a restart (usually uncraftable items), then keep and eye out for "unusual" items that show up at said shop. The are usually sold to the shop by PC crafts and are thereby craftable 80% of the time. It helps to RP asking the shopkeeper if he has anything new, or to let you know if he has anything interesting come in or whatnot. After you have a fair amount of good recipes in that "area of experties" move on to another, and find another shop.
Hope it helps,
-FW
I am forced to repeat...
I am playing a MUD.. If ever I want to play a puzle-game, a word-hunting game or a similar game I know where to look in the internet.
If people want crafts special to their characters only, there should be another way, making up coded clans like 'Excellent Tuluki wood crafter', 'Luir's Outpost Hoopah Carvers', 'Allanak Obsidian Experts' etc could be a way.
Let's assume two things. First, all crafts are visible, second, players are allowed to form coded clans if they prove they're long-living and able to provide a clan themselves. Now let's make an example.
You want to make a legacy item? Make your masterwork sword.
First craft: shard of obsidian into prismatic obsidian blade (knife making)
Second craft: prismatic obsidian blade x 5 into grouping of prismatic obsidian blades (foraging)
Third craft: grouping of prismatic obsidian blades into prismatic obsidian blade x 5 (foraging) - just to take back what you did in case you have to
Fourth craft: short baobab haft + grouping of prismatic obsidian blades x 2 into an elegant baobab macahuitl
... Your character is a skinny female merchant/weaponcrafter in Luir's outpost, known as Chick. So you make up a clan "Chick's expertise" because you have lived for 15 days playing time and it seems you'll live for at least 15 days more. It's a long time. The staff lets you. You etch a small erdlu chick carving on the macahuithls you make. They travel the world. Everyone that analyze it, know that IC they're made by the well-known crafter Chick from Luir's Outpost and they have to come be your apprentice (get accepted into the coded clan) to be able to make the same. It's accomplished. Only you and your apprentices know about your super duper special craft.
And, if you die before you can teach to someone else - if your clan dissipates? Then it's staff's choice. They may decide it to become common knowledge in time. They may decide it to become forgotten knowledge and buried to the sands with you. You're dead, you have no say in that.
.......
But, currently, just because some players want to keep their special cookery and armor recipes special, I'm having difficulties finding even the simplest recipes? I'm forced the repeat. The current system does nothing but punishing newbies.
Quote from: evil_erdlu on July 24, 2008, 04:45:37 AM
I'm having difficulties finding even the simplest recipes?
Quote from: FantasyWriter on July 24, 2008, 03:51:19 AM
The best advice I can offer for the OOC problem of finding new recipes, is to concentrate on one particular crafting skill that interests the player and the PC. Next, find a shop that sells items of the same "craft." See what the shop offers right after a restart (usually uncraftable items), then keep and eye out for "unusual" items that show up at said shop. The are usually sold to the shop by PC crafts and are thereby craftable 80% of the time. It helps to RP asking the shopkeeper if he has anything new, or to let you know if he has anything interesting come in or whatnot. After you have a fair amount of good recipes in that "area of experties" move on to another, and find another shop.
Hope it helps,
-FW
Quote from: evil_erdlu on July 24, 2008, 04:45:37 AM
The current system does nothing but punishing newbies.
How would you have it work? Any suggestions?
While I do agree with you, Erdlu, I doubt we'll see this sort of change in Arm1. The good news is that, according to the blog, the crafting system in Reborn should solve your problems.
http://www.zalanthas.org/blogs/brideofson/archives/001389.html
Quote from: FantasyWriterHow would you have it work? Any suggestions?
I believe I just offered a suggestion. Didn't I? Just above that sentence you quoted. Just let everyone peruse through
every crafting recipe possible OOC, but let skill of character and IC achievement (acceptance in a coded clan which replaces apprenticeship - learning from a master) decide if we can perform some crafts or not. If a player really really wants to keep a craft secret for himself and his apprentices, let him form an IC clan for himself, a coded way to be able to show that he's teaching his recipes to only folks worthy of his attention. More staff work? I fear it is. But if a player has passed through a good mark, has enough connections and seems to be adding to the trade world of the game a lot, he could be given a bit of extra snuggling time?
Just because a player wants to keep a templar-bottom-etched alabaster-hilted obsidian-bladed battle sword's recipe secret, all newbie players shouldn't suffer trying to figure out how to make even the simplest of the clubs. The opposite should be the norm, or maybe it's just my two shiny forged clattering obsidian chips.
I (and I am sure others too) enjoy finding "new ways" to put things together. It is part of the fun in learning a new craft IRL, too.
I think of the OOC equivalent to a recipe database the equivalent to saying, "Hey, by the way, even though the docs say water is scarce in the Known World, here is a list of 10 places you can find absolutley free and semi-unprotected water." or "If you leave Red Storm and go 2s 5w 3s 10e 3e, then 20 s you can get all the way to the ubber secret place on the other side of the Sea of Eternal dust and not even have to fly." or her you go... "If you just happen to see NPC-Aggro-Wild-Animal-Monster-X and are able to enter the room he is in before he attacks you for the first time, and have a really good XXXXXXX-skill, you might be able to XXXXXX it before he kills you in one bite."
I have had characters die trying to find a place they could hide without without having to come to the city for water. I had one die of dehydration VERY close to one of them that I, as the player knew about, and didn't go because my PC didn't, and the city was in the other direction. I have had rangers died from trying to find out which animals that aren't normally considered mounts, are actually tamable.
I have had apartments FULL of JUNK that I didn't know if it was any good or not, and found new recipes for things that I had NEVER seen in game before, and was absolutely thrilled about discovering something new or long forgotten among the player base.
And no, Armageddon is not a long time players club of elitists... I have only been playing for a year and three months, but have been willing to take the risks and search for the secret places, and willing to take the time and effort required to save everything I ran across that looked like it might be usable in my PC's craft. IC-Zalanthus is NOT an easy world to live in... OOC Armageddon is NOT an easy game to play. If it were, we wouldn't have the quality of players that we do, and thank God that we do. Just in case you are interested in a game that comes with a set of manuals the tells you every secret about food/armor/spells and every nook and cranny in the world, Books-A-Million and Barnes and Noble have usually have whole sections on World of Warcraft and Dungeons and Dragons books.
-FW
P.S. - I think they have Pokimon and Sims books too.
A watering hole should be kept secret. Noone can question why. It's obvious. Some secrets should be secrets and noone would even bother questioning. They _are_ obvious. But we're talking about...
Note: I don't even have a merchant character right now. The ones below are past problems I already got over.
- Tables... Making tables.. My character has become the best woodcarver. He/she branched, became mastercrafter, yada yada.. And yet he/she can't make tables because I haven't yet tried 'every' combination of raw materials.
- Clubs. A simple club. My character can make it. He/she would know. I (player) don't know. I will know in 5 weeks or so. I will join the 'long-term-players' club and the problem will be over. But then a new player will come over and he'll have the same problem.
- Basic knives. My character can make perfect dirks but still has to try out everything with 'wood' in sdesc to find out how to make that simple wooden knife? Why? I can make better ones already!
- Basic axes. Hey.. Same here. I can make battle axes and I'm bored of buying every simple axe in game just to see a blank line after 'analyze'ing it.
Sarcasm against sarcasm: Why do we have maps of cities? Is this warcraft or something? I'm against the helpfile 'help map'.. Let the players figure out where the bazaar is. Noone says Armageddon is an easy game to play. Let them wander aimlessly in the city they lived for years till they can find the bazaar.
Why do we have documentation about herbs? Plants? Most of the animals? If I didn't read that page, I wouldn't run away from that raptor I saw on the road. It helped me cheat. It stripped me off the enjoyment of exploring. Remove it! Armageddon does not need helpfiles. We, hardcore players can find out everything on our own. We are the geniuses of RPing. You say you don't want to find out those basic information? What are you going to ask for next, secret rituals for defiling? Go play warcraft, idiot! They do include your 'basic information' there.
I am definately for Bast's Idea. Crafting drives me crazy.
Erdlu, some of us ENJOY puzzling things out for ourselves. Arm IS in part a questing game, and those recipes are some of the questing aspects of the game. It is a lot of types of games rolled into one. I can't stand long, involved, convoluted quests. But I do enjoy little puzzles. The types that, when I figure them out, I can say "Aha!" and get back to pillaging and raping Tek's minions without having to wipe the sweat from my brow.
Crafting gives me that questing outlet. If you don't enjoy this little mini-questing aspect of Arm, you have a few choices:
1. Don't craft, don't create a crafting character, don't join a guild that specializes in crafting stuff so you don't have to watch other people enjoying it all day long.
2. Join a guild that specializes in crafting, with your crafting character, and go nuts with your character's boss learning every recipe he can possibly show you. Make a database. Die. Create a new character, join another clan...and so on and so forth. Just make sure to ROLEPLAY it out, because SOME of us actually -like- roleplaying our way in and out of these discoveries, and if you just say "ooc just give me the recipe for everything you got I shouldn't have to roleplay figuring this out my character should -know- that an obsidian blade uses twice-tanned leather cord made from the hide of a virgin goudra sacrificed at high sun by a male gypsy, and not just any generic leather cord."
3. If someone gave you a chocolate layer cake with strawberry filling and fudge frosting, would you know how to make it from scratch, without acquiring the recipe from SOMEWHERE? Just by looking at it, you're telling me you could easily figure out how to make it?
If you had never cooked before, if this was the first time you've ever used an old-fashioned charcoal grill in the back yard, and someone brought you a whole plucked chicken with giblets, are you telling me you would somehow, instinctively know, exactly how to turn that whole plucked chicken with giblets into a succulent platter of barbequed chicken wings and breasts, crusty outside and fall-off-the-bone tender inside?
Just because you can see full well what the ingredients are...just by looking at something - doesn't mean you know dick about making something. Or even what, exactly, goes into the making of it. You don't know WHICH paste to use, you don't know if it DOES use paste, you don't know if it uses rantarri-cat gut, or simply twine from a shrub in the grasslands. You don't know if the leather is tanned with vats of pickled gimpka rat shit, tregil shit, or escrue shit. You don't know if you're supposed to PULL with the scraper, or PUSH with the scraper, and when to NOT scrape at all but gently tug instead.
In short: BECAUSE of the fact that having a list of ingredients CANNOT possibly be sufficient to help you figure out how to make something that your character can't make, is reason enough for me, that you shouldn't have that list.
Perhaps what you need is not "The uber list of every craft", but "A newbie's simple guide to what to craft".
Give them a small selection (say three/five/ten) crafts for each skill (if you're feeling that anti-newbie-crafting, don't stick skill titles, just give them a long list and let them play hunt-the-item from it).
Make them simple, make them available everywhere, or have one from three areas (Nak, Tuluk, Luir's & around).
This way, newbies get to see that a branch of baobab and a lump of grey rock can go together to make a spear (I'm making it up, don't believe they do, no trusting me on that one!).
I know there are -some- examples in the helpfiles, but if you're in the wrong city/don't travel/don't explore/don't forage, you will never find the sorts of things that some of them mention.
A few handy-hints-for-newbies-so-they-don't-look-completely-stupid might help. Sure, save the uber-templar-sword-of-doom as a top secret, but a wooden club -should- be easy for a 24 year old crafter type that's probably been fiddling with chunks of wood since they were 6!
...also like Evil Erdlu's idea, but instead of clan, perhaps use another word, like 'group', so people don't get confused with clans as we know them (Kadius/Salaar/Legion/Kurac/etc)
Thanks, as always, Liz. ;)
I miss having you-know-who, so I could interact with *clears his throat*. Maybe we will run into each other again one day.
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Erdlu, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one...
I guess you're right. No need to further involve in repeating the same thing. I understand your opinion. Just, I am dumb as rock IRL and I do hate puzzles. Next time I'll try joining a clan and try harder. Just, my last merchant was stuck in a city with nearly no interaction (gatherers for me) possible around.
Someone find a kitten photo and post it to soften the air, now!
I'm good with a newbie list...so if your character has skill_knifemakiing, you could type..
crafts
and get:
For your Tuluk-based character, skill_knifemaking recipes include the following:
a large baobab branch
a head-sized chunk of grey stone
a skinny agafari twig and a piece of flint
a scrap of leather and a small grey pebble
So you'd have to find that branch, to learn what it makes...but now you know not only that you need a large baobab branch, but that once you find one, you will be able to do something with it.
4 items per craft, per newbie, and only for those crafts that are currently on their list. By the time you are good enough to branch different crafts, you -should- already know how to figure this stuff out without a recipe list.
Oh god, nothing would make me happier than a list of newbie crafts. Trying to find newbie recipes for a craft I'm unfamiliar with sucks.
Quote from: Mood on July 24, 2008, 10:12:03 AM
Oh god, nothing would make me happier than a list of newbie crafts. Trying to find newbie recipes for a craft I'm unfamiliar with sucks.
Seconded!
Quote from: Kyviantre on July 24, 2008, 10:14:26 AM
Quote from: Mood on July 24, 2008, 10:12:03 AM
Oh god, nothing would make me happier than a list of newbie crafts. Trying to find newbie recipes for a craft I'm unfamiliar with sucks.
Seconded!
Thirded!!
I am a genius. Don't forget to send kudos about me for being the truly remarkable wonderful problem-solving little gamer-geek that I am!
Quote from: evil_erdlu on July 24, 2008, 04:45:37 AM
I am playing a MUD.. If ever I want to play a puzzle-game, a word-hunting game or a similar game I know where to look in the internet.
While I agree with the sentiment, I am forced to point out that you should research some of the history of MUDing.