Armageddon General Discussion Board

So as not to hijack Gimf's other thread, I put this up.
I thought we might attempt to be open and accumulate a list of reasons why we as characters or the players behind those characters may choose to resolve a conflict in armageddon by killing. I think this is mostly relevant with regards to PC to PC confrontation, since those certainly have the best interaction and potential, but it can certainly apply to PC to NPC conflict as well. And although discussing other options for killing game and wild beasts would be interesting, let's keep it to sentient conflict that has potential.

I'm hoping that after coming up with a list of reasons for why we choose death and killing, we might look at some of them and discuss what we might do to encourage other options, and if it's even appropriate.

To start:

1. To avoid revenge - they'll eventually try and get you back, be it the insult, theft, disfigurement, or whatever - death means no revenge
2. To keep anonimity - if you don't kill them, they'll tell all their friends, the authorities, and their mother. This is bad for you.
3. To get ALL the loot - it's just easier to make sure you got the good stuff hidden in their clothes when you kill them.
4. It's quicker - Getting someone to submit, stop, strip, and so on with RP can take upwards of IC days as they stall.
5. It's a message - It don't get more direct then death, even if it's not very creative.

These are just a taste, I'm sure you all have many IC and OOC additions.

Avenging the death of a close friend or loved one.

To protect a secret.

Because they really really pissed you off.

Because my boss told me to.

Because the laws of my city or clan said to (deserter, criminal, etc)

Because it says I'm a homicidal maniac in my bio and staff approved it

Thinking back over the reasons why I've killed PCs:

-- Because I thought it was what you were supposed to do when you had a conflict with another PC. (I was a n00b...still sorry, Barzalene!) I would definitely take this back if I could.

-- To avoid IC consequences from an underling's mistake. Looking back on it, I should have chosen to exile this PC instead--because honestly, the IC consequences weren't going to be THAT bad, and it's highly probably I could have gotten the PC to cooperate with whatever my demands were--but I was a n00b to playing leadership and didn't know better. (Sorry, Ourla!)

-- To get rid of a troublesome underling that I had put hours and hours and hours of effort into attempting to bring into line. I'd do this one over, still...it was a completely valid IC reason and the only solution my PC saw.

-- When ordered to kill PCs. These were all quite valid, and usually reflected great stupidity on the part of the PCs being killed...running from the law repeatedly, mouthing off to the wrong people despite warnings, flaunting "unnatural" abilities, etc. Nothing I'd change here, sometimes people will force the hand of authority and bring about their own doom.

Many of my characters would agree with Jayne:

Quote from: Jayne
I'll kill a man in a fair fight, or if I think he's gonna start a fair fight... If he bothers me, or if there's a woman... Or if I'm gettin' paid. Mostly only when I'm gettin' paid.

Morrolan

Self-defense: if someone else attacks you for a different reason.

Entertainment: you're stuck in the arena? Sucks for you.

To stop a message: if the person knows something you don't want someone else to know.

Territorial reasons: Someone stepped onto Tribe X's land, or the X side of the 'rinth, or whatever else there may be.

Morrolan wins the thread.

The most common reason I've PKed is because my leader characters have had their hand forced into it.

Employee A breaks Rule A which states they should get a light punishment or be dealt with at the leader's discretion.

Employee A decides to play the, "SCREW YOU, MAN, I DON'T HAVE TO PUT UP WITH YOUR CRAP!" card and attacks my character/attacks my character's other employees/attacks another superior/tries to loot the compound/flees from capture and deserts.

-- Because it's OOCly fun.

-- Because it feels like winning. "HAHA, I KILLED YOU!" Also mostly an OOC feeling. Killing seems to provide this feeling of "win" better than other stimuli in the game.

I don't have these reasons myself; I used to think it would be fun to PK, before I did it. But I've found it mostly a drag for a lot of reasons.

I used to pkill for various reasons. Bounties, out of anger, posing a threat, etc.

I haven't killed a single player for about two years now and will only do so as a last resort.

Because it's in character to do so.

I often refrain from killing another character because the character I'm trying to portray is not a killer. Know what I mean?

All, or most, of those reasons I've seen are pretty good reasons... but yeah, most of the time there's other alternatives that are more fun.  If nothing else, you can leave mercy on and just RP like you thought they were dead.. even though OOCly you know that they are just stunned or unconscious.  I'd say 90% of the time, or at least more times or not, there are probably better alternatives that add more to the game, overall.

I think a lot of these replies are missing the point:  it's not "give me reasons why you killed," it's "give me reasons why you killed instead of doing X, Y, or Z."

I think Dakurus pretty much covered the legitimate reasons in his initial post.

And hey, look, Gimfalisette just covered the noob reasons.

I think that about covers it.

I've killed quite a few PCs over the years, and it's slowly become clear that this is quite simply the smart thing to do.  -Every- time I've failed to kill someone, I've lived to regret it (unless an unrelated doom met me somewhere along the way).  Whether the PC managed to escape or I had mercy on them, when people live, they invariably involve others in the hunt for you, and while that may create some interesting conflict, 9 times out of 10, my (IC and OOC) goal is NOT simply to create conflict.  Killing you was a means to an end, and very often such ends are not attainable when the entire world is looking for you.

If you want to get butt-hurt about it, that's fine...but Armageddon's motto is: "Murder. Corruption. Betrayal." not "Second chances.  Multi-line emotes.  Conflict resolution."

Because they keep making trouble.

I kill because:
My hand was forced.
They were a magicker.


I make people kill me because:

It is easier to die and start over when the entire population of PCs in a given city ridicule you.

Quote from: Synthesis on July 16, 2008, 08:24:49 PMIf you want to get butt-hurt about it, that's fine...but Armageddon's motto is: "Murder. Corruption. Betrayal." not "Second chances.  Multi-line emotes.  Conflict resolution."

I gotta say, this one made me chuckle.

The above posts pretty much covered everything I could have contributed otherwise.

Also, just wanted to say... I'd rather die to another PC in a well-played scene than due to falling off a cliff, accidentally drinking cleaning solution, or getting eaten by scrab #138.
I'm the kind of guy that sends kudos for a good death. We all gotta go sometime, and it's kind of comforting to know that, at the very least, I provided somebody with a nice pair of boots.

My #1 reason for killing: Because I knew it was Synth's character.  ;)

Just kidding... I hope nobody holds grudges like that, because I'd be getting killed a lot.  Wait, I already do get killed a lot.  You bastards.

Your boots. Every time.

I kill because it is IC to do so, because of batrayal, and because it needs to happen. If you deserve it, you deserve it.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on July 16, 2008, 08:10:28 PM
-- Because it feels like winning. "HAHA, I KILLED YOU!" Also mostly an OOC feeling. Killing seems to provide this feeling of "win" better than other stimuli in the game.

I win Armageddon with at least 90% of my characters and I only had to kill one PC in the last.. Five years or so maybe?

Reason #1 is by far, "my hand was forced" Normaly it is a PC i've left alive because the PC should know mine is FAR to powerful to bother (at least alone..hint hint) And the third of forth time around my PC has simply had enough. All the rest are as Fathi and others have said, I have a leader PC of some sort and the other pc throws the I'M NOT AFRAID OF YOU card.

The second reason is simply and sadly there are some things that the mercy command simply does not work on.

Because killing is easier to think of and execute than other methods of 'resolution' or 'winning', e.g. disfigurement, exile, ostracization.

Because killing is kinder (sometimes!) than other possibilities, e.g. permacrimming someone and letting them rot.

Because killing is liberating. I come originally from a non-permadeath MUD. The ability to just permanently erase a problem is like a breath of fresh air.

(See above) Because sometimes conflict is seen as a problem instead of an opportunity.

Death is one of the few ways we have of actually inconveniencing the PLAYERS behind the characters. It causes players to lose something, and to need to put more work into the game. Death is the point where player and character interests most naturally coincide, and so the easiest method to use to modify player behaviour.

When they leave me no other alternative.
To protect anonymity.
When they refuse to play along and act out a scene. (Basically when you try to rp out a scene such as a raid and they pgame in order to escape without anything up.) I've had raider pcs where all I wanted was their water and 'sids. I've had a few people play along and give some up and let them go on their way, some others...foolishly would prefer to die than to give up some coins or a skin of water.
If you escape me pgaming instead of acting out a scene, my pc will kill yours without hesitation the next time they see you. If you're lucky I'll give you a courtesy emote after dropping you with mercy on before finishing you.

Because I don't like the way they played their character.


^ I haven't actually done that one.


Yet.

Quote from: Tisiphone on July 16, 2008, 09:38:18 PM
Death is one of the few ways we have of actually inconveniencing the PLAYERS behind the characters. It causes players to lose something, and to need to put more work into the game. Death is the point where player and character interests most naturally coincide, and so the easiest method to use to modify player behaviour.

This would be abuse, though.

Whether it's abuse or not I think that idea still exists and is somewhat valid, even if unintentional. If a player's PC who was casting spells in the Sanctuary dies, the player will probably think, "Oh crap, I probably shouldn't do that again unless I want my character to die again." If you go around killing PCs in order to inconvenience players, I think that would be considered griefing (I don't think anyone's advocating that though).

When a character flies into a rage over some setback and turns his fury onto his unfortunate subordinates.

Because I had a character that learned that it's not the punishment or the spirit of law that encourages people to follow it, but the certainty.  When I pike the head of some fool outside the gates who thought they could walk away from me and be free of the law my character upheld, I know plenty other folks will know that if they try something stupid, my character will find them.

Quote from: Cutthroat on July 16, 2008, 10:03:29 PM
Whether it's abuse or not I think that idea still exists and is somewhat valid, even if unintentional. If a player's PC who was casting spells in the Sanctuary dies, the player will probably think, "Oh crap, I probably shouldn't do that again unless I want my character to die again." If you go around killing PCs in order to inconvenience players, I think that would be considered griefing (I don't think anyone's advocating that though).

Oh yeah, I agree. I didn't think she was advocating for it, and I don't doubt it happens.

Quote from: flurry on July 16, 2008, 09:58:58 PM

Quote from: Tisiphone on July 16, 2008, 09:38:18 PM
Death is one of the few ways we have of actually inconveniencing the PLAYERS behind the characters. It causes players to lose something, and to need to put more work into the game. Death is the point where player and character interests most naturally coincide, and so the easiest method to use to modify player behaviour.

This would be abuse, though.

I don't think it always is, though. For example, some people just refuse to learn not to mouth off to templars.

Quote from: Tisiphone on July 16, 2008, 10:17:20 PM
I don't think it always is, though. For example, some people just refuse to learn not to mouth off to templars.

Yes, true, because there's also a valid IC reason to support it.

But if it were because some people refuse to learn to use 'talk' when sitting at a table, that would be another story.

Because the combat code is by far the easiest coded way to hurt another character?

A single tough character can conceivably gank your troublesome PC.  Holding someone still long enough for Intimidation to occur requires subdue and guard and locked doors and buddies and a good deal more luck.

Because the victim had something I wanted, and the other ways weren't working.
Because the victim had something I didn't want them to have (knowledge included).
Because my lover told me I had to.
Because someone HAD to die, and that particular victim just got the shitty luck this time.
To make a crystal clear point to the survivors.
To preserve the game environment.
I was hungry, and the victim looked yummy (limited to certain PCs only)
To punish other associated PCs somehow connected to the victim.
As a squirming, bloody offering to {edited by request} so that I could {edited by request}
To earn a promotion or avoid punishment.
Orders.
Psychosis or specialized deviancy (limited to certain PCs only)
Self-preservation.
Either that jack-ass had to die, or my image would have suffered.  Status.

I think that is my complete list to date.  Sorry fellow-players.  Looking back up at the list, some look more convincing than others.


Seeker

Wow, you guys all did cover some pretty good reasons. I don't have much to add.

Sometimes, killing a PC might be "easiest". You get characters who feel threatened, or are jaded by past encounters, or are just too uncreative/lazy to take the effort to spare someone... and then they decide to pull the kill trigger on people often. It's a shame when killing somebody is your preferred option, but it does often seem to be the safest.

Quote from: Inigo MontoyaMy Name Is Inigo Montoya. You Killed My Father. Prepare to Die.

Quote from: Soldiers' MottoI live to fight, I fight to live.

Quote from: Bob from The Dresden FilesYes, well, it served him well, as did I, right up until you self-defensed him to death.

Reasons I'd Kill IC:
1.) Family & Close friends
2.) Duty
3.) Secret that should stay Secret
4.) Self-defense

Quote from: ale six on July 16, 2008, 11:00:53 PM
It's a shame when killing somebody is your preferred option, but it does often seem to be the safest.

Sociopathy is rampant on Zalanthas.  Especially when it comes to magickers, other races, and NPCs in general.

Morrolan

edit: to be fair  It's no more rampant than it is in Western media.  When was the last time an action hero lost any sleep over the 20 mooks he killed to get to the "big boss"?

My next PC is gonna be a Zalanthan Action Hero then  ;D.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on July 16, 2008, 07:59:15 PM
Looking back on it, I should have chosen to exile this PC instead--because honestly, the IC consequences weren't going to be THAT bad, and it's highly probably I could have gotten the PC to cooperate with whatever my demands were--but I was a n00b to playing leadership and didn't know better. (Sorry, Ourla!)

Hahaha, you nobles toying with peoples' lives.   :-*

The number one reason I pkill is because the victim is a threat to the livelihood of my PC and those she cares about.  If they were allowed to live, Bad Things would happen, and no alternative (smear campaigns, blackmail, torture, etc.) is a possible solution IC. 

The RP benefits of allowing a character with whom I'm having conflict to go free, rather than ending their story with death, outweigh most instances of instant-gratification pkilling.

I think most people break it down too far.

Zalanthas as I envision it doesn't have the moral aversion to killing and death that western culture does. Without fail, all of my PCs so far will kill:

1: When it is in their best interest to do so.

Zalanthas is a brutal, brutal place.

I rarely have any reason to pk someone that rationally outweighs the risks of trying to pk someone.

After thinking about this matter longer, the reason we kill is because every other form of punishment is subject to OOC reality. There is consent for everything, other than death. Furthermore, there is no code backup for anything, other than death. No torture code commonly available, no enslaving but by consent, no beat downs in the street which are not instantly broken up by guards, not enough corrupt people in higher places to pay off .... death is the one way to actually make the player of the other character think about saving his character's ass.

I've only directly killed a couple PCs --- on accident.  Only in the rarest of cases do I end the lives of human/elf/dwarf NPCs.

I've participated in a few PC deaths on orders from a leader. Really, the PK is on the leader's head in that case.

I've engineered the deaths a couple PCs -- because they were simply too codely powerful to let live, and I figured a way to get rid of them.  Of that particular classification of PC, my character would have murdered them by the dozen if I could figure out a safe way to do it.

...............
I've been on the opposite end a dozen or more times -- ignoring my coded right to flee, instead allowing a superior force of PCs to overtake my character and decide his fate.  That has mixed results.  Kudos to those who choose a more interesting fate for the my character than simple death.  No hard feelings to those who picked the kill command.
...............

Death is a little bit too acceptable in game, just a little bit.  It should be taboo to kill 'one of your kind' (say, rinthi round-ears killing rinthi round-ears without a damn good reason).  PCs who are known to murder others (including NPCs) when other avenues are available shouldn't be trusted.  I've seen some psychopathic PCs spanked, by staff and by other players. The balance just needs to be shifted a touch more in that direction.  That requires as much effort from the playerbase as it does from staff.

I've never actually killed another pc, ever, except by taking something needed to live from them, and even then, it was only once. I didn't feel too bad about it, because it was in the middle of about 12 hours of the best single session I have ever had playing Arm. I have to say, my character felt terrible about it, even though it was a total accident.

But then I've also barely killed any animals either. *shrug*

--Political Power
--Contracted
--Removing Potential Threats
--Following Orders
--The Only Solution
--Fear (Magickers, Mindworms, and Etc.)

Quote from: Synthesis on July 16, 2008, 08:24:49 PM

-Every- time I've failed to kill someone, I've lived to regret it (unless an unrelated doom met me somewhere along the way).

.....

Armageddon's motto is: "Murder. Corruption. Betrayal." not "Second chances.  Multi-line emotes.  Conflict resolution."

That said, I dislike killing other characters. It often makes me feel very bad oocly, and I rarely do it. On the other hand, I'd feel worse if my char died instead. Often, pk is a matter of ic necessity, when there is no way around a potentially lethal threat.

To fulfill a focus.

Quote from: Yokunama on July 17, 2008, 04:22:16 AM
--The Only Solution

This is the one I have to really support. If I could tell somebody IC that if I hear a word of this rumor, they will lose their right hand, and then go catch them and actually do it to them in coded terms, without staff intervention, I have got to say, killing would suddenly seem less attractive. If I could tell someone that the next time they steal from me, I'll lop off a foot, and I could codedly do it to them, killing would suddenly appeal much less to me.

But since the only lasting thing I can do to a PC is to kill them, that's what I'll continue to do as punishment ... that, or whip them. If it is not a coded punishment or some sort of really really good social punishment, I have no interest in it.

Lovely. Reading this it would seem the posters here are not the same people that actually play the game. I've been killed many times when even some lighter forms of punishment, though not much lighter, like brutal torture, disfigurement or rape would be far more than I deserved. Face it, many players -love- to kill other PC, and it is fun, I admit, but then go play a killer for hire and enjoy yourself, don't just kill someone for having a big mouth or looking at you wrong way. In all these instances my char was obviously new, powerless and without any friends worth mentioning.

Once again, if I knew the names or descs of the 2 would be dwarf rapists, I'd give them a fat kudos. Every housewife on Zalanthas would rape me, -and- kill me for the same thing. Which makes me, as a player, a bit quicker with the blade, too.

One should also ask

Why do we kill (ICly and OOCly) without RP?
If we are no newbie

Thinking back on reasons for my past characters:

--Imminent danger to an ally
--Duty
--Direct order
--Revenge for repeated thefts
--Revenge for attempted killing

Other reasons that almost brought my characters to that point:

--Jealousy
--To save an organization from bad leadership

Quote from: najdorf on July 17, 2008, 07:37:42 AM
One should also ask

Why do we kill (ICly and OOCly) without RP?
If we are no newbie

This is a really good question. I'd say:

- Because some players are afraid if they take time to RP, the other character will run away
- Because some players want to "win" by killing the other guy, even if it means there's no RP behind it
- Because some players would rather succeed in a kill with no emotes than fail an attempt with them

As brutal as this thread is, I really haven't seen a lot of excessive player killing in the last two years.  I think we've been pretty good about offering non-lethal alternatives when possible.

Your experience may vary, naturally.

Am I the only one that does "reverse raiding"?

I play characters and beef them up....put on relatively "newbie like" gear, and then walk out to the local raiding grounds.

It usually plays out something like this...

Raider rides in, looks down at me sid hacking.

Raider player thinks..."Oh, newbie gear, I can pwn this guy and get what little he does have, leet."

Raider demands everything.

I spit on him, and generally insult him instead of handing over the uber gear I dont have. I guess they want my waterskin or something, *shrugs*.

Raider decides to use muscle and attack poor little newbie me....

After about thee rounds of combat, the player of raider thinks..."Oh shit, WTF is happening?"

I then track them down, and kill them, because they attacked me, and I now have an IC reason to get revenge.

Its called Reverse Raiding. Making yourself look like a easy victim, getting raiders to attack you, then using the IC excuse to "Raid" them, but since they tried to raid you first, you still get to be the good guy because you are only protecting yourself and getting revenge against the "Evil Raider".

Thats how you raid, and still get to RP being a good guy. Its useful, and fun.


To answer the question, I typically only kill other PC's, because its fun.

Ironically, I usually kill more PC's with good guy characters, than bad guy characters. Hunting down criminals, getting revenge against "Bad Guys", kill evil magickers, ect.

With my bad guys, I always feel bad about killing PC's, I might kill 1 in 20 that I raid, and usually only because they were stupid enough to type..."Look Raider".

Note to victims, your survival rate goes up about 600% if you just keep your eyes on the ground. Go ahead and try to run, you might get away, but regardless of if you run or fight, keep your eyes on the ground, because if you "Look Raider", and you end up losing, and getting caught, the raider kind of has an obligation to kill you then.

Quote from: Desertman on July 17, 2008, 11:10:02 AM
Note to victims, your survival rate goes up about 600% if you just keep your eyes on the ground. Go ahead and try to run, you might get away, but regardless of if you run or fight, keep your eyes on the ground, because if you "Look Raider", and you end up losing, and getting caught, the raider kind of has an obligation to kill you then.

'Tis true.



Erm, but looking back, I've found most of my few pkills were all about money. Whether the person I was killing had lots of it, or my character was being hired to do it.

I must be one of the only people who hasn't ever killed anyone.  Weird...

Brandon

Quote from: Desertman on July 17, 2008, 11:10:02 AM
Am I the only one that does "reverse raiding"?

You are not alone.

Though I would say that SPECIFICALLY reverse raiding, i.e., going out of the gates with the intent of ganking some raiders, rather than simply using a Q-ship defense, is a bit...strange. After all, you should at least have a healthy respect for combat.

Quote from: Tisiphone on July 17, 2008, 12:20:20 PM
Though I would say that SPECIFICALLY reverse raiding, i.e., going out of the gates with the intent of ganking some raiders, rather than simply using a Q-ship defense, is a bit...strange. After all, you should at least have a healthy respect for combat.

Yeah, it is a bit strange. What sane person would leave the gates dressed like a commoner just so they can get attacked by someone and then kill them? I mean, why would anyone do that? If you're roleplaying someone who wants to rid the desert of raiders, I suppose it might be fine, but...... honestly, the way you described it seems more OOCly motivated than ICly to me.

The problem with that is that you expect the raider to use hand to hand weapons against you, because that's the way to go, code-wise.. But in reality, any smart raiders would just hold you at arrow-point and keep his bow leveled at your chest while you drop your bags and pack and slowly back away.. In game, you know that this isn't going to happen.

Because there's no 'approach' code.

Because there's no 'approach' code.

Because there's no 'approach' code.

(I think I've just summoned PF)

Quote from: Malken on July 17, 2008, 12:32:33 PM
Because there's no 'approach' code.

Because there's no 'approach' code.

Because there's no 'approach' code.

(I think I've just summoned PF)

He got twitted, you're okay.

FuSoYa wrote:

QuoteI must be one of the only people who hasn't ever killed anyone.  Weird...

Haha, definitely not. I've never killed another PC, in all my years in playing. Sometimes it was just because I wasn't quick enough on the draw, but for the most part, I never had a reason to. And I've played templars, 'gickers, and cold gangbanger 'Rinthi thugs.
I'm not adverse to killing, as my previous posts should make clear. If you'd kill an NPC for it, you should kill a PC for it. But I find that you rarely, rarely actually need to kill somebody. 7DV has a very good point about certain punishments not working well due to lack of coded support, but I can think of plenty of non-lethal punishments for enemies.
For politcal types, you could attempt to humiliate your enemy. Or you could try to hedge him out, steal clients or allies from him, and form a political alliance against him.
Exile also works very well. It's almost as good as death, and will keep the bad blood out of your little corner of the world.
If you're an evil magicker, you can always take the James Bond villain route. Don't kill your enemy, just leave him in a potentially deadly situation. I remember hearing an account in-game about a guy who attacked by a powerful sorceror. The sorceror incapacitated him with a spell, then summoned a monster to eat him. This allowed the sorceror to re-join the rest of the battle, leaving his victim to his fate. Amazingly, one of the victim's allies came and killed the monster, allowing the victim to recover.
While this could be considered ostensibly stupid or cocky on the defiler's part, you have to admit, it must have been absolutely awesome for the victim involved. Can you imagine the terror, the heart-pounding adrenaline as you watch your character get slowly eaten by a magickal monster? It might loose points in practicality, but it gains big points in sadism and theatricality.
Think outside of the coffin, people.

lol

I didnt say I sat there with my character IC'ly thinking..."I want to go reverse raid someone, let me put on these newbie clothes".

I just never change out of them lol.

To my pc, clothes are clothes.

Do I have the OOC thoughts..."Lets go reverse raid someone"...sure, but IC'ly, I am just going sid hacking in my comfortable sandcloth clothing.

*shrugs*

The big appeal to reverse raiding to me is, it kind of OOC'ly kicks the raider in the testicles for assuming something about a PC based completely on thier OOC knowledge of gear.

If I was wearing a full set special desc sandcloth gear and wearing my sid swords on my belt, that raider would think OOC'ly..."Ok, they have been in game a while, I will pass them by"...But because I am wearing standard regular sdesc sandcloth gear and the same swords the raider thinks..."Oh cool, he is wearing what I KNOW is typical newbie gear, he hasnt been in game long, I will raid him."

I bet they fucking think twice before using that OOC knowledge to raid someone again right?

Well, probably not, but alteast I got a good laugh out of watching thier "Oh shit" moment unfold.

QuoteIf I was wearing a full set special desc sandcloth gear and wearing my sid swords on my belt, that raider would think OOC'ly..."Ok, they have been in game a while, I will pass them by"...But because I am wearing standard regular sdesc sandcloth gear and the same swords the raider thinks..."Oh cool, he is wearing what I KNOW is typical newbie gear, he hasnt been in game long, I will raid him."

I've never had this mentality with a raider. My pc might be more cautious because they appear more well-equipped but they certainly will not pass them by on the basis of their clothing/gear. That's just plain OOC.

Actually the best part is they actually sit there and let me kick thier ass for a while...

I know the player is thinking..."WTF? Well, I will give it a minute to see if they just got really good rolls to start....*A few more rounds of combat pass, they are still losing horribly*...Holy crap, this newbie must have all AI stats, why is my sword flying away? Oh man....*Beep, Mantis Head*"

Its like they just refuse to flee, the shock gets them, and they sit there knowing that the combat is going to turn back around in a minute, because I am a newbie, they will usually stay right up until the moment of, or fully until death, thinking "I know I can beat this newbie, whats going on?"

Dont judge people based on your OOC knowledge of what gear they have.

I will have a really long lived pc that never changed out of gear that cost over 20 sids.

Quote from: jhunter on July 17, 2008, 12:55:43 PM

QuoteIf I was wearing a full set special desc sandcloth gear and wearing my sid swords on my belt, that raider would think OOC'ly..."Ok, they have been in game a while, I will pass them by"...But because I am wearing standard regular sdesc sandcloth gear and the same swords the raider thinks..."Oh cool, he is wearing what I KNOW is typical newbie gear, he hasnt been in game long, I will raid him."

I've never had this mentality with a raider. My pc might be more cautious because they appear more well-equipped but they certainly will not pass them by on the basis of their clothing/gear. That's just plain OOC.

I agree, with my raiders, the better the gear, the more likely I am to attack them. My pc will think..."Score, this guy is definantly worth raiding"...sure I might be thinking..."Set alias to flee, just incase"...but IC'ly, its how it should be, more of an incentive to raid.

Quote from: FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit on July 17, 2008, 12:51:23 PM
I remember hearing an account in-game about a guy who attacked by a powerful sorceror. The sorceror incapacitated him with a spell, then summoned a monster to eat him. This allowed the sorceror to re-join the rest of the battle, leaving his victim to his fate. Amazingly, one of the victim's allies came and killed the monster, allowing the victim to recover.

Man, unless this also happened to someone else, it's me that this happened to. Someday I'll tell y'all how the story really happened (the details aren't quite right), or post a log. It was very funny.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on July 17, 2008, 01:04:32 PM

Quote from: FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit on July 17, 2008, 12:51:23 PM
I remember hearing an account in-game about a guy who attacked by a powerful sorceror. The sorceror incapacitated him with a spell, then summoned a monster to eat him. This allowed the sorceror to re-join the rest of the battle, leaving his victim to his fate. Amazingly, one of the victim's allies came and killed the monster, allowing the victim to recover.

Man, unless this also happened to someone else, it's me that this happened to. Someday I'll tell y'all how the story really happened (the details aren't quite right), or post a log. It was very funny.

Hey, I think I know this story.

--Racism

I'm digging the James Bond villain approach. Just off the top of my head I can think of a handful of predicaments one could leave an unconscious character in, as a an alternative to death or dismemberment.

Quote from: number13 on July 17, 2008, 01:12:10 PM
I'm digging the James Bond villain approach. Just off the top of my head I can a handful of predicaments one could leave an unconscious character in, as a an alternative to death or dismemberment.

As long as it's truly an alternative. Just to clarify about the story a little, the sorceror was imm-animated, and the leaving my PC to get nearly eaten by a beast was accidental, not intentional. The imm(s) in charge weren't attempting to put my PC into a certainly-fatal position, even though that's nearly how it worked out.

Twice.

(Yeah, almost the same exact thing happened to that PC a few weeks later, too!)

I'm pretty sure it wasn't you, Gimf. The sorc was another player, I'm 99% certain,  and the James Bond villain style was intentional.
I don't know, I just thought it was a fun idea, and something I'd definitely do if I was an all-powerful defiler.

I do see a undercurrent of really wanting to pass a successful message or effect, and see references to turning to death as that message because other messages fail to be interpreted (or so it seems, since we can't always see why other characters decide things). Can we make the messages more clear to the victim? Are there ways the victim can better communicate (code or otherwise) why it seems the message is ignored, denied, or whatever (be it OOCly, or ICly).

I can give an example as a player and as a staff member.

Territory - As a player, belonging to a tribe or clan, territorially protective of a particular area. You come across interlopers, and interact. You warn them verbally, perhaps arrows into the room, perhaps even a simple beat down but without death intended. You do your best to communicate to them that, "they" shouldn't be here, and there are consequences. Sometimes there's a toll, but in some cases, they just aren't allowed. And after that, they continue to come back, because of whatever reasoning. (The area is poorly represented as patrolled or claimed, they ignore the message, they just don't fear you as a PC and you have no NPC backup, they don't fear death because it's just a new character, they think they can get away with it since you aren't around all the time, or whatever)

This repeated, ignored behavior can be many things as has been stated: theft, insubordination, insults, betrayal, law breaking, etc.

As staff, with regards to the territory example above, I've seen similar behavior, though usually it's in interactions with NPCs. Characters who constantly wade through sentient npcs such as gith, halflings, mantis, rinthis and others. For whatever justification and reasoning, they encroach about territory in which these cultures live with little regard to the theoretical but poorly represented consequences. Similarly, I'm faced with, how do I communicate a message to this effect, before choosing the option of death. One that will be heard, abided by to significant extent, instead of ignored because of whatever shortcoming (code, environment, IC, OOC, or otherwise). The cases are often different, a mantis eating you, vs a rinthi just wanting you off his corner, but I can see that it helps both players to understand the message was understood and of sufficient affect, which folks realize death is.

Desertman, you're an asshole and your reverse raiding reeks of abuse.

Dakurus did a great job of that with the gith mesa and a certain era of Kuraci.

Maybe some players just don't stop to think long enough to 'get it'.

Quote from: spicemustflow on July 17, 2008, 02:14:19 PM
Desertman, you're an asshole and your reverse raiding reeks of abuse.

I am indeed.

I dont see how I am abusing anything really....please explain.

If by abuse you mean playing a commoner who wears commoner clothing and ingoring the fact that my "Leet Gear" doesnt reflect my skill level is abuse...I guess you are right.

I didnt realize I was required to by uber gear if I am a skilled fighter...Sorry, I think.

I kill when people give me funny looks.

say (muttering at ~bar) I think tha' bastard gave me..th' EYE!

Edit: Oh and my first and only raider ever was unlucky enough to attack a 'gicker as his first target. *zap!*

Quote from: Vessol on July 17, 2008, 02:52:41 PM
I kill when people give me funny looks.

say (muttering at ~bar) I think tha' bastard gave me..th' EYE!

Edit: Oh and my first and only raider ever was unlucky enough to attack a 'gicker as his first target. *zap!*

Yeah, the only time I would suggest raiding on the basis of "gear"...is when that gear happens to be a dull black gem. Hehe.

(Not that your target was a gemmer, just saying)

Quote from: Desertman on July 17, 2008, 02:50:58 PM
I am indeed.

I dont see how I am abusing anything really....please explain.

If by abuse you mean playing a commoner who wears commoner clothing and ingoring the fact that my "Leet Gear" doesnt reflect my skill level is abuse...I guess you are right.

I didnt realize I was required to by uber gear if I am a skilled fighter...Sorry, I think.

What you do is no better than raiders who might prey on folks in newbie gear.  You go out, likely alone, confident only for the fact that your character has been active for a long time and should therefore be better than anyone he's likely to come across.  The only reasons for your confidence are OOC factors.

Quote from: Desertman on July 17, 2008, 02:50:58 PM

Quote from: spicemustflow on July 17, 2008, 02:14:19 PM
Desertman, you're an asshole and your reverse raiding reeks of abuse.

I am indeed.

I dont see how I am abusing anything really....please explain.

If by abuse you mean playing a commoner who wears commoner clothing and ingoring the fact that my "Leet Gear" doesnt reflect my skill level is abuse...I guess you are right.

I didnt realize I was required to by uber gear if I am a skilled fighter...Sorry, I think.

I'll explain. if your character is a seasoned "desertman" it would make no sense for him to venture out of the gates and not protect himself from the dangers like dehydration, beasts, raiders etc. It would make sense that he wears camouflaged sandcloth, armor, facewraps cloaks and weapons, and not go sid mining in patched trousers and scruffy boots, like a desperate beginner. Your "clever tactic" of bating the raiders would never occur to your character and stems only from OOC knowledge of his player. Which is hardly fair, don't you think. It's also unfair of raiders who take advantage of newbies, but it doesn't change the fact that you're a cunt :).

Conan did it.

-Chargen Background:  Really, so many things are set there, including the willingness and likelihood a character of mine will pkill.
-Attitude:  I don't play characters that believe in the santicy or value of life, generally, unless it is something specific to the character.  So think child soldiers in Africa.
-Frustration:  I've had a PC channel frustration with other topics into killing another PC, because it was, at least, -something- she could do.
-Because they were a mul with a bad attitude even before they became a nilazi?
-Or, that reminds me, mul rage

Quote from: spicemustflow on July 17, 2008, 03:30:11 PM

Quote from: Desertman on July 17, 2008, 02:50:58 PM

Quote from: spicemustflow on July 17, 2008, 02:14:19 PM
Desertman, you're an asshole and your reverse raiding reeks of abuse.

I am indeed.

I dont see how I am abusing anything really....please explain.

If by abuse you mean playing a commoner who wears commoner clothing and ingoring the fact that my "Leet Gear" doesnt reflect my skill level is abuse...I guess you are right.

I didnt realize I was required to by uber gear if I am a skilled fighter...Sorry, I think.

I'll explain. if your character is a seasoned "desertman" it would make no sense for him to venture out of the gates and not protect himself from the dangers like dehydration, beasts, raiders etc. It would make sense that he wears camouflaged sandcloth, armor, facewraps cloaks and weapons, and not go sid mining in patched trousers and scruffy boots, like a desperate beginner. Your "clever tactic" of bating the raiders would never occur to your character and stems only from OOC knowledge of his player. Which is hardly fair, don't you think. It's also unfair of raiders who take advantage of newbies, but it doesn't change the fact that you're a cunt :).

Actually he is a skilled dirt poor Byn mercenary who simply never had the obsidian coins to buy Leet Desert Camo gear as you put it.

*shrugs*

I play dirt poor commoners, even if it means throwing away coins to keep that persona.

My most recent PC who encoutered this..."Being raided because of his lack of cool gear" problem/opportunity was a 30 day warrior who just never wore armor.

Ironically, I was a raider, but because I didnt wear gear, I had a ton of raiders try to raid me, based solely on the fact I didnt wear gear.

And my pc didnt wear gear, simply because that was a facet of his unique personality.


Please refrain from name calling, atleast until you know what you are talking about, and even then, please refrain from name calling.

We can disagree with each other, and still be nice about it.

I gotta say Desertman's thing 'is' pretty ... out there. Oh, it's well explained, but ... still on the very edge of OOC, perhaps a little past it. It's like giving your character a small description, and wearing very little, just so you can get confused with NPCs. You have every reason to describe your character however you like, as long as it's 4 lone, and you've got every reason to wear whatever you think you can afford or is sensable. But in the end ....

I've killed two PCs on my own, and out of my own volition (Every other ones were mostly leader inspired). I regret killing the first PC to this very day. Oh it had a 'very' good reason, I spent about 50 rl days with thinks/dreams/biography preparing for the kill. But then, instead of giving the pc a fun death, I stumbled upon an opportunity and one hit killed him. No emotes, nothing. Felt pretty ashamed afterwards. Even figured how to even it out a bit, but the details would be IC.

Second kill was fairly simple. The guy kept being a nuisance to me, and other people my character was allied with. Had to go ... just had to.

Quote from: FatDot on July 17, 2008, 03:50:42 PM
I gotta say Desertman's thing 'is' pretty ... out there. Oh, it's well explained, but ... still on the very edge of OOC, perhaps a little past it. It's like giving your character a small description, and wearing very little, just so you can get confused with NPCs. You have every reason to describe your character however you like, as long as it's 4 lone, and you've got every reason to wear whatever you think you can afford or is sensable. But in the end ....

I've killed two PCs on my own, and out of my own volition (Every other ones were mostly leader inspired). I regret killing the first PC to this very day. Oh it had a 'very' good reason, I spent about 50 rl days with thinks/dreams/biography preparing for the kill. But then, instead of giving the pc a fun death, I stumbled upon an opportunity and one hit killed him. No emotes, nothing. Felt pretty ashamed afterwards. Even figured how to even it out a bit, but the details would be IC.

Second kill was fairly simple. The guy kept being a nuisance to me, and other people my character was allied with. Had to go ... just had to.

Ooh...You mean like making your pc have the sdesc...The brown-haired man...and then making him a natorious sorcerer?

Yeah, I have to agree with you, that is pretty bad.

Desertman, when I said you were a cunt :) I didn't mean any offense, I put a smiley face. I was just disagreeing strongly with your tactics. And a person who was skilled and experienced in anyway wouldn't go out raiding without a proper gear, as he would know that he is risking far more than it's worth.

As for previous discussion: What you wear ICly is what you want to wear. I personally have played chars that didn't like to wear heavy armor. They liked to move fast and easy instead. Wtf is wrong with that?

If you wore all noob gear and talked like a noob. "Hi, where can a person get some weapons?" while running a 20 day char, that would be abuse. But wearing common commoner garb? Hello... any assasin worth two shits wants to BLEND IN, not looking like a fucking assasin.

In 6 years or so of arm I've only pk'd a few times on purpose. Sadly I have more accidental Pk's then real ones!

One because I was a Salarri Sarge, and I found an elf wearing a salarri cloak a few days after noticing a missing recruit. Bye bye elf.

One with a templar. Their kind cannot be allowed to live *IC reasons

One with my current char! Their kind cannot be allowed to live * IC reasons

Aside from that I have four or five accidents,

three pk's with a half giant that was just too friggen scary for his own good.

Two with that same templar while I was learning the power of using hit within the city.... whoops.

Oocly I only really kill when the role demands it. Like the sarge, like the templar. My templar did many other things that were public displays, making folk kiss the soldier statue feet for an IC day and so forth.

Allthough I do get an ooc thrill in a fight or conflict, I always find it more thrilling when the other person escapes, and especially after some tense rp following attack + escape. After that happens, every moment in the game is exciting and tense. If the other person dies, it's like. Job done. Now what?

Quote from: spicemustflow on July 17, 2008, 04:04:18 PM
Desertman, when I said you were a cunt :) I didn't mean any offense, I put a smiley face. I was just disagreeing strongly with your tactics. And a person who was skilled and experienced in anyway wouldn't go out raiding without a proper gear, as he would know that he is risking far more than it's worth.

That entirely depends on what you consider proper gear.

I was extremely succsessful at raiding in the gear I chose...so through method and achievement, I would have to say it was "proper" for my character.

OOCly, I kill because I'm a sociopath that likes to tie people up in my basement and watch them die by starvation or slow amputation (depending on my mood) for all the bad things anyone has ever done to me.


ICly, I kill if it seems in character to do so.. but I like to play good guys, so I don't do much of this. I save all my killing for RL.

;D

Quote from: sarahjc on July 17, 2008, 04:16:22 PM
OOCly, I kill because I'm a sociopath that likes to tie people up in my basement and watch them die by starvation or slow amputation (depending on my mood) for all the bad things anyone has ever done to me.


ICly, I kill if it seems in character to do so.. but I like to play good guys, so I don't do much of this. I save all my killing for RL.

;D

Amputations are the best....

Put salt on the stumps, they thrash like you wouldnt believe.

Quote from: Desertman on July 17, 2008, 04:12:12 PM

Quote from: spicemustflow on July 17, 2008, 04:04:18 PM
Desertman, when I said you were a cunt :) I didn't mean any offense, I put a smiley face. I was just disagreeing strongly with your tactics. And a person who was skilled and experienced in anyway wouldn't go out raiding without a proper gear, as he would know that he is risking far more than it's worth.

That entirely depends on what you consider proper gear.

I was extremely succsessful at raiding in the gear I chose...so through method and achievement, I would have to say it was "proper" for my character.

You were extremely successful because you were relying on OOC assumption of the other players by pretending to be a newb who's scraping a bit of black, not because your gear was ICly appropriate for any sane person who'd go out in the desert.

Quote from: spicemustflow on July 17, 2008, 04:38:45 PM

Quote from: Desertman on July 17, 2008, 04:12:12 PM

Quote from: spicemustflow on July 17, 2008, 04:04:18 PM
Desertman, when I said you were a cunt :) I didn't mean any offense, I put a smiley face. I was just disagreeing strongly with your tactics. And a person who was skilled and experienced in anyway wouldn't go out raiding without a proper gear, as he would know that he is risking far more than it's worth.

That entirely depends on what you consider proper gear.

I was extremely succsessful at raiding in the gear I chose...so through method and achievement, I would have to say it was "proper" for my character.

You were extremely successful because you were relying on OOC assumption of the other players by pretending to be a newb who's scraping a bit of black, not because your gear was ICly appropriate for any sane person who'd go out in the desert.

I WAS the raider, I wasnt baiting raiders.

So a genuine "experienced" raider goes into the harsh desert, in a gear that doesn't protect him from from the elements, beasts, and blades, and he thinks it's fine, even though everyone has heard grim stories about the dangerous sands? And sun. And other raiders. And wild necks. And so on.

Can we end the derail of an otherwise good thread please? Take it up in PMs if you want.

Quote from: spicemustflow on July 17, 2008, 05:19:04 PM
So a genuine "experienced" raider goes into the harsh desert, in a gear that doesn't protect him from from the elements, beasts, and blades, and he thinks it's fine, even though everyone has heard grim stories about the dangerous sands? And sun. And other raiders. And wild necks. And so on.

Some people Zalanthans just need a bit of sandcloth and a skin of water.

And I don't see how his "reverse raiding" would be abuse.  That's silly.

When I -do- kill, and it really is pretty rare, it is usually either because I have a friend to help me accomplish it, or the guy is wearing a full or full-looking set of armor, or has a really cool looking sword.


That is to say, though, that I've never just outright been like stand;draw;draw;kill, I always try to emote with people. Be friendly, see if they're worth killing. Sometimes I'll use a Kruth Deck or a pair of dice and roll or draw, see what comes up, and then decide. (I like to make people think -I- didn't want to do it. I'm so shneakay!)

But then, I'm not really a raider. I honestly don't -like- killing, but OOCly I know that if I don't, they'll contact and get my sdesc, or look at my armor, or tell them my entire mdesc if they can. Honestly, I havn't done that in a long time. I saw a like, Umber-skinned Elf or something, and said it was some skinny, with -really- dark skin. I can't think of a reason to say "umber-skinned" unless I'm an artist and use that word a lot IC.

I did have one character for whose reactions to various stimuli I rolled a die, but she was supposed to be stone-cold crazy.

Quote from: Tisiphone on July 17, 2008, 07:10:44 PM
I did have one character for whose reactions to various stimuli I rolled a die, but she was supposed to be stone-cold crazy.

Options on a 1d6

1. Drink more ale.

2. Pick nose.

3. Blurt out something completely unrelated to the current situation.

4. Homocide.

5. Pick nose, drink more ale, then homocide.

6. Dance naked.

Quote from: Sokotra on July 17, 2008, 07:00:31 PM

Quote from: spicemustflow on July 17, 2008, 05:19:04 PM
So a genuine "experienced" raider goes into the harsh desert, in a gear that doesn't protect him from from the elements, beasts, and blades, and he thinks it's fine, even though everyone has heard grim stories about the dangerous sands? And sun. And other raiders. And wild necks. And so on.

Some people Zalanthans just need a bit of sandcloth and a skin of water.

And I don't see how his "reverse raiding" would be abuse.  That's silly.

Sometimes, you just have to consider the source.

I try to look at such things from a Staff perspective.

If I were on Staff, and I saw someone raid-baiting would I be more inclined to:

a) Think this player exceptionally clever, and chuckle to myself.

b) Load up an escaped mul raider and subdue;hit, strip them naked, and leave them lying in the sands for being a complete fucking idiot.

c) Roll my eyes and put a nasty note on their account, and possibly remove everything but their city elf merchant option.

d) b and c

If you guessed "d," you were correct!

That being said, here's my take on the matter:

Master swordsmen don't go out and mine 'sid for a living...and if they did, they wouldn't remain master swordsmen for very long.  When was the last time you saw a UFC fighter bagging groceries at H-E-B?  There's a reason top competitors in every sport get sponsorships out the ass:  because being really good at -anything- requires a lot of consistent training and practice.  I don't care if you were in the Byn for 10 fucking years:  if you've been doing nothing but mining 'sid for the last 5, when you pick up that sword, you're more likely to cut your own arm off than anything else.

I hope you're just joking about this whole reverse-raiding thing...because you're coming across as a serious douchebag.  That's the kind of dumb shit I'd expect from Delerak.

Neither side is right. Those who prey on people wearing newbie clothing, as well as those who lure in the aforementioned twinks..both wrong, imo.

On topic:

I don't go ooc and kill just because I as the player wants to. Everytime I kill, there is a reason/motivation/method to my madness.

I don't know.  I think there's a lot of logic behind it.  If he's got half a brain he knows that obsidian miners get hit by raiders often.  As a raider himself he knows they probably either carry valuables on them or something worth something.  So he sets up a fake hit and goes out there... throwing his cloak off and fighting back.

Sounds fucking like a good idea is what it does.

It's not OOC knowledge to know that raiders often hit obsidian miners.

Brandon

Quote from: Dakurus on July 17, 2008, 01:33:14 PM
I do see a undercurrent of really wanting to pass a successful message or effect, and see references to turning to death as that message because other messages fail to be interpreted (or so it seems, since we can't always see why other characters decide things). Can we make the messages more clear to the victim? Are there ways the victim can better communicate (code or otherwise) why it seems the message is ignored, denied, or whatever (be it OOCly, or ICly).

I can give an example as a player and as a staff member.

Territory - As a player, belonging to a tribe or clan, territorially protective of a particular area. You come across interlopers, and interact. You warn them verbally, perhaps arrows into the room, perhaps even a simple beat down but without death intended. You do your best to communicate to them that, "they" shouldn't be here, and there are consequences. Sometimes there's a toll, but in some cases, they just aren't allowed. And after that, they continue to come back, because of whatever reasoning. (The area is poorly represented as patrolled or claimed, they ignore the message, they just don't fear you as a PC and you have no NPC backup, they don't fear death because it's just a new character, they think they can get away with it since you aren't around all the time, or whatever)

This repeated, ignored behavior can be many things as has been stated: theft, insubordination, insults, betrayal, law breaking, etc.

As staff, with regards to the territory example above, I've seen similar behavior, though usually it's in interactions with NPCs. Characters who constantly wade through sentient npcs such as gith, halflings, mantis, rinthis and others. For whatever justification and reasoning, they encroach about territory in which these cultures live with little regard to the theoretical but poorly represented consequences. Similarly, I'm faced with, how do I communicate a message to this effect, before choosing the option of death. One that will be heard, abided by to significant extent, instead of ignored because of whatever shortcoming (code, environment, IC, OOC, or otherwise). The cases are often different, a mantis eating you, vs a rinthi just wanting you off his corner, but I can see that it helps both players to understand the message was understood and of sufficient affect, which folks realize death is.

Simple... let the newly slain linger on for a moment, unable to do anything except watch.

That would give the killer time to perform a few emotes, like cuss the idiocy of the miner for looking at him, or pound a stake with the tribe's emblem into the ground next to the corpse, or whatever is needed to deliver the message.

Sort of the time between the deathblow and when the victim finally loses conciousness. Could even have a message indicating that to the killer... <x>'s eyes glaze over in death, at the same time the victim sees "Your vision goes black".... beep!

If for some reason speed is of the essence and the killer can't wait thirty seconds, behead would end the process early.

Quote from: Synthesis on July 17, 2008, 08:34:41 PM
I hope you're just joking about this whole reverse-raiding thing...because you're coming across as a serious douchebag.  That's the kind of dumb shit I'd expect from Delerak.

Unless I missed something he said, I don't get what the big deal is.  The "master swordsman" comparison thing didn't make any sense to me.  From what I understand, it's just some guy that decides he's going to be a raider (or raid the raiders) and in order to do so he's going to hang out where he knows that raiders like to search for easy targets.  He pretends to be an easy target and gives the would-be raider a taste of his own medicine.  What's wrong with that?  That is real life - not some 'cheat code' in a video game.  I see no abuse there whatsoever and, with the scenario I just described, the Staff would have no problem - ask them.  Like I said, unless there is something I missed where something wrong is being done.  I didn't see anything.  In fact, in some situations the guy might actually be turning the tables on the "abusers" who think they can search for easy noobs to kill or whatever.

The worst twinks are always the ones who don't even realize they're being twinks.

If you can't figure this shit out yourself, there's no use trying to explain it to you.

::)

Quote from: Synthesis on July 17, 2008, 10:07:30 PM
The worst twinks are always the ones who don't even realize they're being twinks.

If you can't figure this shit out yourself, there's no use trying to explain it to you.

::)

And the worst posters are self-righteous ones who don't even care to discuss a thing and just dismiss it.  It's cool.  You know you're right and that's all that matters.

Brandon

Quote from: Synthesis on July 17, 2008, 10:07:30 PM
The worst twinks are always the ones who don't even realize they're being twinks.

If you can't figure this shit out yourself, there's no use trying to explain it to you.

::)

Lol.  I think you are just over sensitive or just like to argue.  You're wrong, sorry.  ;)  I've never used this tactic, anyhow.

Just because someone is wearing a disguise or fakes you out doesn't mean it is abuse.  I'm sure there are some situations where there could be abuse involved, but this doesn't look like one of them.  Don't get angry and just start throwing insults.  That won't get us anywhere unless you are just here to hear yourself talk rather than discuss things.

Guys, enough with this bickering.

It's -wrong- to dress up in newbie clothes to lure in twinks. As much as I sympathize, that doesn't make it right. Same goes for the twinks who prey on brand new pcs.

However, I see -nothing- wrong with doing a little acting. If your pc raids raiders, I think it would be perfectly acceptable to be a little naive and "trusting" so as to lull them into a false sense of security. I also see nothing wrong if you take off a few pieces of armor to give the illusion that you are weak or perhaps poorer/less experienced as a Zalanthan, not as a player controlling said marionette.

So, let's review:

Taking off armors and wearing less expensive clothing and/or cheap armors to give the illusion you are suitable prey is acceptable.

Using actual newbie gear to fool your prey into a false sense of OOC security is, naturally, making you no better than them.

Don't be a dick.

Quote from: Forest Junkie on July 17, 2008, 10:18:20 PM

Taking off armors and wearing less expensive clothing and/or cheap armors to give the illusion you are suitable prey is acceptable.

Using actual newbie gear to fool your prey into a false sense of OOC security is, naturally, making you no better than them.

Don't be a dick.

QFT.

If you want to buy some ratty clothes from the 'rinth or something, I think thats one thing. Wearing Leather Newbie Boots and all the newbie-only armor, thats being a bit twink-ish and using the OOC knowledge that all newbies start with that equipment set as your basis. Sure, raiding newbies is wrong, but there might be reasons behind it. Thats the point of this thread, -why- you kill. Not -how- you do it. Jackers =)

There is no newbie gear in Zalanthas, just as there are no Newbie Training Zones and stuff like that.  But yeah, we all know what you start with when you first enter the game - so I guess you can call that newbie gear.  If you are attacking someone just because they have newbie gear on then you probably deserve what you get.  However, I'm not even sure that's what Desertman meant... because his actual quote was "put on relatively "newbie like" gear" which could just mean an average pair of pants and stuff.  Who cares?  So I can't put on a disguise as an average commoner now?  That is abuse?  Sorry, doesn't make sense to me.  Please help me understand how this is being a twink.  Even if you are wearing exact newbie gear, I would still have trouble calling that abuse - though I might call it bad form.  But you could be some special-apped were-tembo from the pits of suk-krath... you can never assume someone is a newb to begin with.

I'm surprisingly on the "not-abuse" side of this one.  The classic newbie outfit is pretty much by definition the typical type of gear that a commoner of a particular region wears.  That is the standard we have collectively been instructed to accept.

Wearing typical clothing and gear of an average commoner is not abusive for any conceivable reason that I can imagine.


Seeker

It sure as hell is if you're doing it  due to OOC factors for the sole purpose of baiting raiders. It's bad form. It's -cheating-.

Quote from: Synthesis on July 16, 2008, 08:24:49 PM
I've killed quite a few PCs over the years, and it's slowly become clear that this is quite simply the smart thing to do.  -Every- time I've failed to kill someone, I've lived to regret it (unless an unrelated doom met me somewhere along the way).  Whether the PC managed to escape or I had mercy on them, when people live, they invariably involve others in the hunt for you, and while that may create some interesting conflict, 9 times out of 10, my (IC and OOC) goal is NOT simply to create conflict.  Killing you was a means to an end, and very often such ends are not attainable when the entire world is looking for you.

Unfortunately, with my last character I seem to have made this mistake.

It's very hard for me OOCly to determine when my character would and when I would just want to etc, etc, etc.  I have lost long lived characters to stupid, stupid reasons and it's very hard for me to decide when to gack someone.  Typically though, I dont' think mercy is appreciated.  I think people are bored and just waitin' to exact that revenge.  Instead of cowering off gratefully it just turns into a silly IC and sometimes even OOC conflict which results in mercy obtaining you death.  It's a very fine line, it can sometimes lead to a great plot, I know it has for me in the past.  I DEFINITELY think people should be selective in there killing.  Obviously if I am a Templar I am not going to walk in and pwn someone who looks at me the wrong way, at the same time if someone has involvement in something critical they've kind of brought it on their selves.  I'm rambling but I suppose my point is there takes an OOC amount of respect on both ends in regards to PKing.  Also I kind of agree with Synthesis though I am not condoning PKing everything with in your capability.   I guess I just think people should pay close attention on both ends as the PK'd and PKer.  If someone is exacting mercy on you for a legitimate reason, in game you should probably consider this instead of exacting revenge.  Also as the PKer you should be conscious of the situation and the be fully informed etc.  As IRL it is a very permanent circumstance and sometimes people have placed many hours of effort into their character.  If you must kill, I think you should try to be as creative as possible with the process as you can be and still exact your kill.

Quote from: Desertman on July 17, 2008, 08:00:50 PM

Quote from: Sokotra on July 17, 2008, 07:00:31 PM

Quote from: spicemustflow on July 17, 2008, 05:19:04 PM
So a genuine "experienced" raider goes into the harsh desert, in a gear that doesn't protect him from from the elements, beasts, and blades, and he thinks it's fine, even though everyone has heard grim stories about the dangerous sands? And sun. And other raiders. And wild necks. And so on.

Some people Zalanthans just need a bit of sandcloth and a skin of water.

And I don't see how his "reverse raiding" would be abuse.  That's silly.

Sometimes, you just have to consider the source.

What? Nobody who could afford anything better than "some sandcloth and a skin of water" would go into the desert so ill equipped, especially if they have some raiding in mind, which means they expect trouble. Conan can cross the sands only in loincloth and a sword, but try traveling like that further than the mining site and see what happens, will you? The fact that you know how many days you invested in your ranger or whatever and your faith in his approximate skills is completely OOC knowledge and luring people who prey on small fish is twinking. Newbie killers are even less of a twinks in this case. You are luring people into a trap and it's a trap that relies on OOC assumptions from both you and your victim, which makes it an extremely shitty one.

For example, a master assassin might disguise himself as a beggar or a shoe cleaner to avoid suspicion and make his victim underestimate him, but as he operates in the city, or even inside a building, he won't die from Krath's touch or be eaten by a raptor, while your raider-bait should have to be crazy to go out underprotected if he knows shit about where he's going.

And Desertman, you were saying something about name calling? Anyway, it's a game, man, enjoy yourself, just next time when you go out like that, I hope you meet a pack of extremely thirsty desert elves with a sandcloth fetish.

Quote from: Forest Junkie on July 17, 2008, 10:18:20 PM
Guys, enough with this bickering.

It's -wrong- to dress up in newbie clothes to lure in twinks. As much as I sympathize, that doesn't make it right. Same goes for the twinks who prey on brand new pcs.

However, I see -nothing- wrong with doing a little acting. If your pc raids raiders, I think it would be perfectly acceptable to be a little naive and "trusting" so as to lull them into a false sense of security. I also see nothing wrong if you take off a few pieces of armor to give the illusion that you are weak or perhaps poorer/less experienced as a Zalanthan, not as a player controlling said marionette.

So, let's review:

Taking off armors and wearing less expensive clothing and/or cheap armors to give the illusion you are suitable prey is acceptable.

Using actual newbie gear to fool your prey into a false sense of OOC security is, naturally, making you no better than them.

Don't be a dick.

I pretty much see it the same way. If you dress up in a less "warrior-like" outfit to bait in would-be raiders that's fine. Intentionally wearing the "I just got into the game newbie-gear" to bait people in OOCly is just as wrong as someone choosing to select you as a victim purely on the basis if your "newbie" outfit.

No one, in this thread, ever claimed to intend to use the complete set of "newbie clothes" as a deliberate ruse.  We've had plenty of discussions about that topic before.  Here's a good one.  http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,9869.msg97450 (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,9869.msg97450).  I agree with Forest Junkie and Jhunter and most everyone else that that is bogus.

Desertman claimed his pc might

Quote from: Desertman on July 17, 2008, 11:10:02 AM..put on relatively "newbie like" gear...

i.e. typical gear of the average commoner of the region. 

I still don't see why it is being so vehemently argued that this makes a player a cunt, an asshole and a cheater.  I don't see it, and I continue to disagree. 

Why is dressing up like an old lady to catch a purse-snatcher, if it is IC for someone's character to want to do so, abuse of the code?


Seeker
(I apologize for the continued derail)

Other than my char being ordered to do so, or their hand being forced, or they simply hit the other guy way too hard when they weren't 'really' trying to kill them, I tend to not kill people because its more fun to try and rp something out, and the whole 'I'll get you one day' usually ensures a band of ragtag (or professional) mercs coming for you at some point down the line. Who doesn't love an old fashion duel that's actually an ambush?

Quote from: Seeker on July 18, 2008, 02:40:17 AM
No one, in this thread, ever claimed to intend to use the complete set of "newbie clothes" as a deliberate ruse.  We've had plenty of discussions about that topic before.  Here's a good one.  http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,9869.msg97450 (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,9869.msg97450).  I agree with Forest Junkie and Jhunter and most everyone else that that is bogus.

Desertman claimed his pc might

Quote from: Desertman on July 17, 2008, 11:10:02 AM..put on relatively "newbie like" gear...

i.e. typical gear of the average commoner of the region. 

I still don't see why it is being so vehemently argued that this makes a player a cunt, an asshole and a cheater.  I don't see it, and I continue to disagree. 

Why is dressing up like an old lady to catch a purse-snatcher, if it is IC for someone's character to want to do so, abuse of the code?


Seeker
(I apologize for the continued derail)

Typical city dwelling commoner, that's the problem, if you live in Manaus, you don't go hunting into the rainforest in the same clothes you go about your house. But never mind, this is going nowhere.

Who needs armor when your skin is leather?  Zalanthans are tough.  ;)

Quote from: spicemustflow on July 18, 2008, 11:40:39 AM
Typical city dwelling commoner, that's the problem, if you live in Manaus, you don't go hunting into the rainforest in the same clothes you go about your house. But never mind, this is going nowhere.

So basically you are upset that someone isn't playing the game the way you want them to play it/feel is the right way to play it?  Personally I think you sound a bit bitter so I'm guessing you raided Desertman's PC or a PC that was stronger then you and got a taste of your own medicine.

Back to why we kill!

Brandon

xx

Quote from: FuSoYa on July 18, 2008, 11:48:41 AM

Quote from: spicemustflow on July 18, 2008, 11:40:39 AM
Typical city dwelling commoner, that's the problem, if you live in Manaus, you don't go hunting into the rainforest in the same clothes you go about your house. But never mind, this is going nowhere.

So basically you are upset that someone isn't playing the game the way you want them to play it/feel is the right way to play it?  Personally I think you sound a bit bitter so I'm guessing you raided Desertman's PC or a PC that was stronger then you and got a taste of your own medicine.

Don't be ignorant. Perhaps he has a legitimate reason. I've only tried raiding in the past (read: around eight years ago) and it didn't work out well for me and my crew, because most victims autofled.

Quote from: FuSoYa on July 18, 2008, 11:48:41 AM

Quote from: spicemustflow on July 18, 2008, 11:40:39 AM
Typical city dwelling commoner, that's the problem, if you live in Manaus, you don't go hunting into the rainforest in the same clothes you go about your house. But never mind, this is going nowhere.

So basically you are upset that someone isn't playing the game the way you want them to play it/feel is the right way to play it?  Personally I think you sound a bit bitter so I'm guessing you raided Desertman's PC or a PC that was stronger then you and got a taste of your own medicine.

Back to why we kill!

Brandon

I've never played a raider, and I'm completely okay with raiders who kill their victims. Danger, excitement and all that. But what he's doing is OOC fishing, not raiding. Just strikes me as odd that the same people who frown on backstabbing a rat are approving this.

Guys, please pull it back on topic.

Quote from: spicemustflow on July 18, 2008, 11:56:55 AM
I've never played a raider, and I'm completely okay with raiders who kill their victims. Danger, excitement and all that. But what he's doing is OOC fishing, not raiding. Just strikes me as odd that the same people who frown on backstabbing a rat are approving this.

How is it OOC?  IC a person from Allanak or who had even been there for an extended amount of time would know that raiders often hit the miners outside.  So a person who was semi-intelligent and knew how raiders work might deduce from that a surprise attack... milling out with the throng of miners and raiding the raider.

Hell, I think it could even be as funny as Jaynestown from Firefly where the person might become an unexpected hero to the miners even though he's really just a ruthless bastard looking for some easy coin.

Anyways.  I'll quit posting on this part so as not to derail further.  If you desire you can hit me up in PMs.  Just wanted to get my point across.

Brandon

Wait wait wait...

I think the problem here is when I said "Newbie Gear"...you guys thought I meant I went to buy "Starting Clothes".

I didnt mean..."Starting Clothes".

I do agree that would be some really bad form...

When I said "Newbie Gear"...I just meant basic cheap gear that can be bought from your local merchant.

The shit that most people buy when they start out, as in, not expensive stuff.

I didnt mean..."Bone studded backpack, Sandcloth Shirt, and Brown Pants".

I dont think anyone is argueing over the same issue here.

I can agree that using "Starting Gear" to fool raiders is very bad form, using "Newbie Gear" to luir raiders, is totally different.

By "Newbie Gear", I just meant gear that wasnt obviously bought because its looks "badass" and you can afford it because you have been alive a long time.

Newbie Gear to me is just basic commoner gear, sandcloth clothes of the cheap variety ect....What most commoners actually wear.

Fair enough, if that's what you really meant.

Though "newbie" is a bit of an OOC term for a brand new player/character, so it's understandable that people would interpret that as "starting" gear.  People might have understood better if you'd said "cheap" or "basic" gear.

Yeah, I think it's fine if an experienced, badass warrior wants to eschew fancy and expensive armors and weapons to ICly mask his ability/wealth.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on July 18, 2008, 12:37:44 PM
Fair enough, if that's what you really meant.

Though "newbie" is a bit of an OOC term for a brand new player/character, so it's understandable that people would interpret that as "starting" gear.  People might have understood better if you'd said "cheap" or "basic" gear.

Yeah, I think it's fine if an experienced, badass warrior wants to eschew fancy and expensive armors and weapons to ICly mask his ability/wealth.

Yeah, I started reading other peoples replies...I typically dont unless its an IMM, and I realized none of these people are argueing about the same thing.

I like to play "poor people"...like I said, I will throw away coins to stay poor, because I like playing a poor commoner. So my gear, regardless of how codedly badass I am, doesnt usually reflect the fact that I am codedly badass, because I am doing what I like to call "playing a role" instead of playing a PC.

So when I am out sid hacking with my 25 day warrior trying to get a few coins for a whore and ale for the night because I am broke, as usual, and I'm wearing my crappy hole-filled sandcloth clothes and my chipped obsidian sword...Its because I am playing a role.

Now when your raider attacks me and goes WTF!!!! HE IS A NEWBIE!!!...because I stomp thier ass and send thier sword flying away to the north...Sure I get an OOC kick out of it, and sure I OOC'ly sit around hoping they come in to try and raid me, because I think its funny OOC. Am I going to start buying uber leet gear with my "poor" commoner just so these guys can better guess how long I have been alive? No, because then I would be playing a PC, and not playing a role.

The point is, I think you guys are argueing over two totally seperate concepts.

Starting Clothes, and Newbie Clothes, were not meant to be interpreted as the same thing.

I think Rahnevyn said to shut it.

Quote from: Malken on July 18, 2008, 12:54:47 PM
I think Rahnevyn said to shut it.

Edited out due to better judgement, considering the source material.

I think Desertman's explanation should conclude the derail nicely.


Anyway, back on topic, then...

Maybe we need more coded non-lethal torture implements (the whip is the only one I know about currently).

Maybe an eye-gouging script that automatically applies the missing eye scar?

Maybe code for applying missing finger scars?

Easier ways to apply poisons (force feeding).

Quote from: ale six on July 18, 2008, 01:07:22 PM
Easier ways to apply poisons (force feeding).

I am in favor of this, I dont know how to code it so that it wouldnt be abused....maybe only if the victim is knocked out or subdued or something, but I am in favor of it in general.

Yeah, definitely the victim for all these things needs to be subdued or unconscious.  Should also trigger a crim flag, so people don't go stabbing people in the eye for fun when someone passes out at the bar.

It might be helpful if clan leaders were more often willing to take something away from clan members, as punishments. Often it seems like if a minion from one clan pisses off someone important in another clan, nothing ever gets done about the legitimate problem; no punishment is forthcoming. If clan leaders were more happy to mete out punishments, especially harsh ones, then perhaps death would be less frequently sought as a vengeance method by outsiders against clan members. Sometimes, however, it seems like clan leaders feel they need to tip-toe around their clannies and not be "too harsh" because the minion might leave the clan.

Things that can be done as punishments for minions, rather than going to the death option:

-- Revoking privilege of leaving the city alone, for clans that normally allow this.
-- Revoking privilege of engaging in sparring practice.
-- Revoking promised bonuses or usual tips given for service.
-- Suspending salary.
-- Fining.
-- Confiscating clan-granted gear for a time.
-- Give extra chores, either virtual such as scrubbing floors, or real such as re-organizing storage space.
-- A virtual beating (emotes only), either alone or in front of clannies for extra humiliation.
-- A coded whipping.
-- Branding (virtual of course).
-- House arrest (confinement for a period of time to clan quarters).
-- Booting from the clan.
-- Exile from the city for a period of time (bribe your friendly local templar!).

Edited to add another thing or two.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on July 18, 2008, 01:18:31 PM
Yeah, definitely the victim for all these things needs to be subdued or unconscious.  Should also trigger a crim flag, so people don't go stabbing people in the eye for fun when someone passes out at the bar.

Maybe knocked out AND subdued, and in a fitting area, the way QUIT works now.

For example...

In a Tavern (N,S)

The blue-eyed man is inconciouss being held by the half-giant soldier here.

Forcefeed blue posion

Here? Find a more suitable place!

I've probably killed more people with one character (Bushman/Sandman) than all of the rest of the my characters put together over the last 18 years.  I'd say probably about 45 or so, maybe half of which where Synthesis and Cyrian20 desert elves. ;)  Just kidding.

Rather than list reasons why I (the player) think people kill, I thought listing some of the reasons why my character killed might be an interesting perspective as well.

Bushman was a ex-Salarri slave that had been freed by the Blackmoon Raiders during an attack on one of their caravans.  He was given the opportunity to live and join their ranks, so he accepted.  He was one of their primary scouts, providers or food, and survivalist.  I would often move about the desert environment making small scale demands of loners I found out in the world - usually to the tune of 50 'sid.  I used this as an opportunity to recruit potential raiders, make contacts, and make a little money on the side.

Some of the reasons why I chose to kill the other player with Bushman were:

Byproduct of Raiding

• The person I was raiding decided they didn't want to give up 50 coins, so they attacked.
• The person I was raiding would spam flee from me every time I tried to initiate contact.  I usually made 3 attempts with escalating degrees of punishment should the PC auto-flee.
• The people we would raid thought they had better odds, or a chance of survival.
• Sometimes it was necessary to kill someone in order to make a point, or dissolve the will of a group to fight back.  I killed a Byn Sergeant once for that reason before we raided the group that was larger than we were.  We figured that with their leader cut down like a blade of grass, the rest of the group would be that much more submissive to our demands.  It helped that we'd already raided that Sergeant before and told him not to try and escape us in the future.

Revenge

• I killed a long-time Krathi because he had carried the severed head of one of our raider spies from Red Storm to Allanak to deliver it to the authorities.  I selected him out of the rest of the people involved as the target since he was the one that personally had disrespected Bushman's friend.  I found him outside of Allanak foraging for rocks one day and began a conversation with him.  I planned full well to kill him, but I wanted to have a chat about why first -- he got nervous and only managed a couple phrases before mounting up, at which point I attacked and pursued to finish the job.
• We caught up with Eldor in the grasslands east of Tuluk alone, my mullish war-chief and I.  He'd frequently hunted us on the roads with other Kadian hunters or local folks.  The mul had subdued him when we found him in the grasses, and we talked with him for awhile.  The war-chief demanded that he drop his weapons and beg for forgiveness.  Instead, he chose to attack and subsequently died.
• A relatively long-lived dwarven warrior had chased some of us along the road one day, and I happened to come across him sitting with a group of other dwarves just north of Allanak on the shield wall one day as I was tracking random people along the North Road.  I attacked him from range and managed to find him exhausted against the walls of Allanak.  I knocked him unconscious and drug him to the old fort that used to exist along the North Road, where I RP'd out cutting of his right arm as a punishment for chasing me.  I finished the job and then drug him outside onto the road for fate to determine his outcome.  Unfortunately, Zalanthas is not kind.

Racism/Hatred

• Probably the PK that I felt the worst about (as a player) was when I was riding through the rocky barrens southwest of Allanak and saw an elf sitting there, bleeding profusely.  Bushman hated elves, so h figured he'd just put the fellow out of his misery.  It wasn't personal, I didn't even know the guy.  He just shot him like he'd shoot a stray dog.  I felt guilty that I didn't give the guy a better death, but I guess sometimes crap just happens.
• There was a player coordinated elven tribe that all had golden eyes.  They always seemed to be after me after I'd raided some of them, so there became a long line of fights with golden-eyed elves based on those interactions.  This wasn't helped by the fact that Bushman hated elves in the first place, much less elves that would actively follow/taunt him.

Territorial Protection

• After Bushman and the Blackmoon had joined with the Rebellion, there were a few instances where people had encroached upon our camp.  Even though it was well concealed (and in an inventive way), there were times when Bushman killed out of fear of discovery.

It's difficult now to recall all of the encounters and outcomes during that period of time.  I know that I frequently had entirely peaceful and calm discussions with characters I found out in the wilderness along with raiding them.  Some paid their 50 'sid and we actually became friends while others chose simply to attack out of fear or hatred.

I know that sometimes killing the other PC felt good, whereas sometimes it felt bad.  Sometimes I was happy and excited at success, and other times I felt guilty or frustrated that the outcome didn't come out another way.

In the end though, I like to think that I acted as the character would act.  That the deaths he dealt were largely deserved and in line with the spirit of the Zalanthan world; gritty, dangerous, and merciless.  I often attempted to make the scene more than a string of coded responses, even if my plan was to kill the person from the very beginning of the scene (which probably happened only 10% of the time).

As long as other players are playing true to the character, keeping in line with the spirit of the game, and making attempts to create a story rather than end a life.  I'm down with death.

-LoD

Nah, those things would all be more fun if the victim was awake, I think.  Also certainly law enforcement should be quite capable of publicly torturing someone.

The Bushman raided my entire Byn unit once, by himself...mad props to you, mad props.

I loved that PC.

Quote from: Desertman on July 18, 2008, 12:33:32 PM
Wait wait wait...

I think the problem here is when I said "Newbie Gear"...you guys thought I meant I went to buy "Starting Clothes".

I didnt mean..."Starting Clothes".

I do agree that would be some really bad form...

When I said "Newbie Gear"...I just meant basic cheap gear that can be bought from your local merchant.

The shit that most people buy when they start out, as in, not expensive stuff.

I didnt mean..."Bone studded backpack, Sandcloth Shirt, and Brown Pants".

I dont think anyone is argueing over the same issue here.

I can agree that using "Starting Gear" to fool raiders is very bad form, using "Newbie Gear" to luir raiders, is totally different.

By "Newbie Gear", I just meant gear that wasnt obviously bought because its looks "badass" and you can afford it because you have been alive a long time.

Newbie Gear to me is just basic commoner gear, sandcloth clothes of the cheap variety ect....What most commoners actually wear.

I misunderstood you then. Sorry.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on July 18, 2008, 01:24:27 PM
It might be helpful if clan leaders were more often willing to take something away from clan members, as punishments. Often it seems like if a minion from one clan pisses off someone important in another clan, nothing ever gets done about the legitimate problem; no punishment is forthcoming. If clan leaders were more happy to mete out punishments, especially harsh ones, then perhaps death would be less frequently sought as a vengeance method by outsiders against clan members. Sometimes, however, it seems like clan leaders feel they need to tip-toe around their clannies and not be "too harsh" because the minion might leave the clan.

Things that can be done as punishments for minions, rather than going to the death option:

-- Revoking privilege of leaving the city alone, for clans that normally allow this.
-- Revoking privilege of engaging in sparring practice.
-- Revoking promised bonuses or usual tips given for service.
-- Suspending salary.
-- Fining.
-- Confiscating clan-granted gear for a time.
-- Give extra chores, either virtual such as scrubbing floors, or real such as re-organizing storage space.
-- A virtual beating (emotes only), either alone or in front of clannies for extra humiliation.
-- A coded whipping.
-- Branding (virtual of course).
-- House arrest (confinement for a period of time to clan quarters).
-- Booting from the clan.
-- Exile from the city for a period of time (bribe your friendly local templar!).

Edited to add another thing or two.

I beleive that I shall keep that in mind. This is an excellent suggestion, regarding leaders punishing their clannies.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on July 18, 2008, 01:24:27 PM
It might be helpful if clan leaders were more often willing to take something away from clan members, as punishments. Often it seems like if a minion from one clan pisses off someone important in another clan, nothing ever gets done about the legitimate problem; no punishment is forthcoming. If clan leaders were more happy to mete out punishments, especially harsh ones, then perhaps death would be less frequently sought as a vengeance method by outsiders against clan members. Sometimes, however, it seems like clan leaders feel they need to tip-toe around their clannies and not be "too harsh" because the minion might leave the clan.

Things that can be done as punishments for minions, rather than going to the death option:

-- Revoking privilege of leaving the city alone, for clans that normally allow this.
-- Revoking privilege of engaging in sparring practice.
-- Revoking promised bonuses or usual tips given for service.
-- Suspending salary.
-- Fining.
-- Confiscating clan-granted gear for a time.
-- Give extra chores, either virtual such as scrubbing floors, or real such as re-organizing storage space.
-- A virtual beating (emotes only), either alone or in front of clannies for extra humiliation.
-- A coded whipping.
-- Branding (virtual of course).
-- House arrest (confinement for a period of time to clan quarters).
-- Booting from the clan.
-- Exile from the city for a period of time (bribe your friendly local templar!).

Edited to add another thing or two.

All good, and don't forget enslaving.


Here's the thing... make it public.   One, it enforces the humilation  and two, it alerts other players to treat the PC accordingly.

If you are the leader, make your minions hold the unruly one down while you use him as a punching bag.
Then threaten his life, and stab him in the leg, so he knows you mean business.

I find this approach works best...when you hire them give them a line like...

"If you fuck me over, if you so much as look at me the wrong way when you get orders, I will gut you where you stand. Just so we understand one another from the get go."

Of course, I play a lot of Bynners, we do shit differently there.

Quote from: My 2 sids on July 18, 2008, 03:32:36 PM
All good, and don't forget enslaving.

Here's the thing... make it public.   One, it enforces the humilation  and two, it alerts other players to treat the PC accordingly.

I'd never go to enslaving unless I'd already tried pretty much everything on the list. Few players will be able to deal with the IC restrictions; enslavement isn't a punishment, it's actually a complete change of situation for their PC. Punishment implies that the PC may be able to learn from the situation and change, but enslavement is a final answer to the problem, much like death.

Also, I do not think that all punishments of minions should be public. It depends on the offense, the person offended, the situation overall, and the PC being punished. I've done beatings in private which were very effective punishments and changed the targeted behavior, and I've done whippings in public which were not effective and didn't cause change...all dependent on the PC. Some PCs are more sensitive, some learn better, some learn poorly.

Quote from: Desertman on July 18, 2008, 03:39:37 PM
I find this approach works best...when you hire them give them a line like...

"If you fuck me over, if you so much as look at me the wrong way when you get orders, I will gut you where you stand. Just so we understand one another from the get go."

Of course, I play a lot of Bynners, we do shit differently there.

So you always would choose to kill PCs for first offenses? Hmm.

I think that there are many players who would be willing to play out enslavement, maiming, or other punishment that severely affects their playability situation.  I think authority figures in the position to inflict such a punishment should inquire whether or not the PC in question is willing, proceed if so, or find an alternative (up to an including retirement/death) if not.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on July 18, 2008, 03:48:56 PM

So you always would choose to kill PCs for first offenses? Hmm.

Of course not, I didnt say I actually -did- gut them where they stood....But imagine this...

You are recruited by the Nice, Well-Mannered man.

or...

You are recruited by the Hateful, Threatened-to-gut-you-right-out-of-the-box man.

Which one are you less likely to fuck up with?

That being said, I never have killed a clannie underling for any offense come to think of it...

I did have one who came to quit, with 34 bowls of stew in his pack...

Now, what do you do in that situation?

Really?

I tell you what you do, you do math.

"So, a bowl of stew costs about 30 coins down at the Barrel...it would seem you now owe the Byn around 900 obsidian pieces, I'll take payment in full, now"

"But but but but,,,Sarge! I dont have 900 coins!"

"Thats fine clannie underling...thats just fine."


So, I stripped him naked, and threw him into the street...His gear wasnt worth 900 coins, but its the best I could do, and it taught him a lesson without killing him.



Or...

You have a clannie you catch outside, I actually showed some sympathy on the poor bastard the first time, I just told him if I ever caught him again, I would gut him for sure.

The very next RL day, my unit coming back from a contract walks up on him in the desert hunting...

*sigh*

What am I to do here? Really?

So, I take him back to the compound and lash him six or seven good times...And then throw him out.


...

The point is, you dont have to actually gut them on the first offense, but I always tell them I will. I want them to know without a doubt that if they mess up there WILL be IC consequences for messing up because I dont want a stream of OOC complaints going to the IMM's to the affect of..."He stripped me naked and threw me out!" or "He lashed me six times for just being outside of the gates!"...Instead they have the mindset..."Holy shit, I'm so thankful he didnt kill me and only lashed me."

Ironically, the guy with the bowls of stew who was naked ended up becoming enslaved within one RL day to a templar...so in a round about way, I sentenced him to slavery, sort of.

I had a my elf assassin stab a human up for laughing in his face after I said I was going to kill them.

Stab stab stab. I think I'll call it: 'Spontaneous revenge'

Quote from: LoD on July 18, 2008, 01:26:50 PM
I've probably killed more people with one character (Bushman/Sandman) than all of the rest of the my characters put together over the last 18 years.  I'd say probably about 45 or so, maybe half of which where Synthesis and Cyrian20 desert elves. ;)  Just kidding.

He might be kidding, but he's also telling the truth.

I think the only time a character of mine really spontaneously (and successfully) killed (directly caused at least, though not having personally delivered the killing blow) another character was when some Bynner insulted a gemmer of mine, and then insulted his mate, and then challenged her to a duel outside the gates.  If I remember correctly, he followed them out, ended the whole thing before the guy even drew his blades, and then immediately turned to his mate (as though he'd just done nothing more significant than swatting a fly) and started arguing with her about how accepting a duel was a foolish risk (and she was upset with him for not letting her have a little sport).

Given the vulgarity of the insults and the fact that my character's mate was in danger, I felt that it was justified.

EDIT: Though... on second thought, I do wonder what would have happened if we'd simply stripped the guy and let him live.  It might have been an interesting and humiliating conversation with his sergeant, explaining that he lost his stuff because he insulted and tried to kill a gemmer's mate.  Damn, now I feel bad.   :(

Quote from: Sokotra on July 17, 2008, 07:20:29 PM
4. Homocide.

The gayest crime around.

Quote from: jstorrie on July 18, 2008, 05:03:48 PM

Quote from: Sokotra on July 17, 2008, 07:20:29 PM
4. Homocide.

The gayest crime around.

Only if it's against you.

Heh, nice catch, though.   Homicide is the actual topic here, though.. stop derailing.  ;)

I'm an adrenaline junkie.

Quote from: Desertman on July 17, 2008, 11:10:02 AM
I play characters and beef them up....put on relatively "newbie like" gear, and then walk out to the local raiding grounds.

Then, you admitted that your characters tend to come from the same mold?

Quote from: Desertman on July 17, 2008, 12:53:49 PM
Do I have the OOC thoughts..."Lets go reverse raid someone"...sure, but IC'ly, I am just going sid hacking in my comfortable sandcloth clothing.

If I'm wrong, someone will correct me, but I think you have the wrong concept of thinking and converting it into your character. Your OOC thoughts should be: "What would my character do today? How would he/she handle this situation? (Including whatever questions you may be face with concerning your character)"

The raider, on the other hand, is in the wrong also. If you think someone is a newbie, try to take an advantage of it, and act upon it, you'd be stepping onto the line of OOC abuse.

Quote from: Desertman on July 17, 2008, 11:10:02 AM
To answer the question, I typically only kill other PC's, because its fun.

Hmm...
This makes me wonder how many of your kills were prompted ICly, or if they the result of your boredom OOCly.

What you are saying makes sense, Yokunama, but it is a game after all.  People do things to have fun.  Others look at the game like it is real life, which is kind of going overboard.  I understand some people want to take the game more seriously then others, but that goes both ways.  I don't like being killed for stupid reasons either, and I pretty much always have mercy on no matter the situation (unless it is a very extreme situation) because there's always an IC excuse I can come up with for leaving the character alive or thinking the character is dead and not thinking OOCly "They haven't turned into an inanimate corpse object, so I better hit them again to kill them."

PvP is fun, whether it ends up in killing or not.  It ends up in killing for a lot of people, which I don't exactly agree is necessary, but again.. it's a game.

Quote from: Sokotra on July 19, 2008, 10:18:13 AM
What you are saying makes sense, Yokunama, but it is a game after all.  People do things to have fun.  Others look at the game like it is real life, which is kind of going overboard.

If people get bored with their roles, they can simply store.

My characters tend to come from the same mold and I make no excuses of it, becaues that's how I like to play them and that's the sort of characters I enjoy playing.

Quote from: Yokunama on July 19, 2008, 02:51:31 PM

Quote from: Sokotra on July 19, 2008, 10:18:13 AM
What you are saying makes sense, Yokunama, but it is a game after all.  People do things to have fun.  Others look at the game like it is real life, which is kind of going overboard.

If people get bored with their roles, they can simply store.

All of the roles will be boring if you do not "do things to have fun".  Heh.  I'm not saying you should just kill on an OOC whim for the heck of it, but there are a lot of easy ways to come up with IC reasons to be involved in PvP combat for the fun of it without going outside your role.  Nobody... or most of us... don't want the -game- to be a chore or a job where you simply fill an empty slot and grind away without any fun.

Quote from: manonfire on July 18, 2008, 05:32:30 PM
I'm an adrenaline junkie.

Me too.

I just live in the fast lane -- When my character is in line to do something, he does it. If that means killing someone, so be it. If it means torturing someone, so be it. If it means my character's torture or death, so be it.

When you begin to let go of a character as being an extension of your true psyche, and accept it as a facet of your imagination, you will be surprised how fun it is to die in Armageddon.

Because I love going through an elaborate plan, from plantation to fruition, and seeing the emotes people make before their character dies, knowing I forever claimed their life.

I enjoy killing because I think it's fun.

Does that make me sick?

To defend younger, weaker members of your family, tribe or clan.

I kill because it's the only thing to do. There is no arguing, you have no friends and everyone must die.
Someone will kill you for saying hey screw yourself, which is appearantly a reason to kill.  You get mad?
kill people, you get happy? kill people. Someone smudged your boot in a crowded room, better kill everyone
in the room just to make sure you got the right one.

Bump that

-blink-

Every PKill I make, I do because I think, 'Hey, I hope this is that douchebag FightClub.'

Note that it's in quotes.  That's an actual thought.  It's not a flame, it's an example.  I would never say that in order to flame someone, especially someone like FightClub.

The reason I pkill varies from PC to PC.  It basically boils down to "Do I have to kill this person for the betterment of my PC's existence?"  If yes, then yes, I need to kill them, and I do so with some roleplay (usually, unless they're a freakin pansy, and can't take it).  If no, then yes, I kill them, in order to put them out of my misery.

I am guilty of letting people live that I shouldn't have before, and it has always come back to haunt me (which is awesome).

IC'ly, hmm...

If I am just a raider, well, I ony go for people that are wearing nice expensive stuff, not bad-ass silt-horror armors and custom made weapons.

If I'm someone with a plan, I try to not kill anyone that could be of use. But normally, I'll run into someone that just pisses me off in game. 'Your insane.' "I'd kick your ass if I had a job." You know. I've heard some dumb things.

People that brag about how good they are... just so happens a few of my characters have managed ot be better. I love killing those folks that sport big guns they don't have.

OOC'ly? Well, I'm in the military.

OOCly, I get my jollies from killing PCs.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on July 18, 2008, 04:31:44 PM
I think the only time a character of mine really spontaneously (and successfully) killed (directly caused at least, though not having personally delivered the killing blow) another character was when some Bynner insulted a gemmer of mine, and then insulted his mate, and then challenged her to a duel outside the gates.  If I remember correctly, he followed them out, ended the whole thing before the guy even drew his blades, and then immediately turned to his mate (as though he'd just done nothing more significant than swatting a fly) and started arguing with her about how accepting a duel was a foolish risk (and she was upset with him for not letting her have a little sport).

Given the vulgarity of the insults and the fact that my character's mate was in danger, I felt that it was justified.

EDIT: Though... on second thought, I do wonder what would have happened if we'd simply stripped the guy and let him live.  It might have been an interesting and humiliating conversation with his sergeant, explaining that he lost his stuff because he insulted and tried to kill a gemmer's mate.  Damn, now I feel bad.   :(

Poor Bynner.

Personally, I prefer my gickers to be resting next to an obsidian deposit before I 'challenge' them to a duel.

Other then that, my IC motivation for killing is virulent, hateful racism.