The failed sneak echo currently gives the wrong kind of impression for how a character is moving in the city. Perhaps in the wilderness, "moving sneakily" is acceptable, but in the city? The success echo is "you try to blend into the crowd". If you're not blending, then you're just walking, aren't you? Why not change this to how palm/slip works, and just have you walk if you fail sneak.
It creates the wrong type of response and impression altogether, in my opinion, to leave the echo as it is in the city.
It does seem kinda of odd that if you fail to "blend into the crowd", you instead end up doing a cartoony, tippy-toe, blatantly-obvious-to-everyone-except-yourself, Look at Me Failing Being Sneaky maneuver that can mark your PC for life. Doesn't it? A bit?
Seeker
Use your imagination.
The failure in question could be obviously checking the movements of the people around them, trying to imply association with a group they don't match, feigning interest in something nearby, travelling from merchant to merchant pretending to browse, etc
All of those to me could easily become a failed attempt at looking natural and blending in.
Quote from: staggerlee on July 14, 2008, 10:25:29 PM
Use your imagination.
The failure in question could be obviously checking the movements of the people around them, trying to imply association with a group they don't match, feigning interest in something nearby, travelling from merchant to merchant pretending to browse, etc
All of those to me could easily become a failed attempt at looking natural and blending in.
Also, when someone is actually trying to sneak in and out of a building, down hallways, or in the shadows of an alley and stuff then it really would look rather "sneaky". Maybe a command emote would help.
Quote from: staggerlee on July 14, 2008, 10:25:29 PM
Use your imagination.
The failure in question could be obviously checking the movements of the people around them, trying to imply association with a group they don't match, feigning interest in something nearby, travelling from merchant to merchant pretending to browse, etc
All of those to me could easily become a failed attempt at looking natural and blending in.
It's not that I can't use my imagination, it's that the echo, in my experience, encourages responses of suspicion when there is nothing suspicious to be had.
The "sneaky" echo is only supposed to show when it is used by sneaks of low skill level or else by veterans who roll a critical failure. This was my impression of how it was supposed to work. Or has this since been changed ?? :-\
Is Friday wrote:QuoteIt's not that I can't use my imagination, it's that the echo, in my experience, encourages responses of suspicion when there is nothing suspicious to be had.
No, there's something suspicious going on. Your character failed his sneak check, and therefore failed to blend in.
There's nothing inherently suspicious about standing in line at an airport, but security personnel can still pick out would-be bombers that fail their 'sneak' check. Your character might be sweating profusely from the nerves, twitching or displaying some other 'tell', moving too quickly from stall to stall, and generally looking nervous and suspicious.
Or they might just be wearing a turban, but hey, that's a different thread.
You know, I've never really -used- sneak unless my guild had it as a skill, but I never thought of "idly perusing wares" or "generally pretending like I'm just walking around when I have a secret agenda" as times to use sneak.
Could make for some fun when I DO fail a sneak check (which, without the skill, is probably all the time, as I'm currently playing as a PC Bahamet in the Tuluki Militia)
If I went and tried to blend into a crowd of people that don't know me/distrust me, they are going to show it in their mannerisms. They are going to give me a wide birth, keep glancing at me, tell me to get away, stop and wait for me to keep walking, change direction, etc..
Now, -I- may just be walking down the road right behind a crowd of people. I might be the only one in tight black spandex with a mask on, or the only one in shorts and no shirts, but yes, I am still just walking along.
There is more to blending in while you are walking than just walking.
Maybe my experience is just mired with people chasing my character down the street to say "YOU LOOK SUSPICIOUS CITIZEN. I AM WATCHING YOU."
That sounds like me. I WATCH EVERYTHING. @.@
I sometimes do that. Sit in a tavern and set watch on ... the most suspicious person present. He doesnt have to be rinthie, or hooded, or anything. Just the one that feels ... least trustworthy.
Whenever I see someone walk stealthily to the (direction), I generally mark them as a thieving class and don't trust them
until they're good and dead. Or they somehow get close enough to me to be considered an equal.
Quote from: Ammut on July 18, 2008, 12:29:58 PM
Whenever I see someone walk stealthily to the (direction), I generally mark them as a thieving class and don't trust them
until they're good and dead. Or they somehow get close enough to me to be considered an equal.
I don't think that's very good roleplaying.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on July 18, 2008, 12:32:09 PM
Quote from: Ammut on July 18, 2008, 12:29:58 PM
Whenever I see someone walk stealthily to the (direction), I generally mark them as a thieving class and don't trust them
until they're good and dead. Or they somehow get close enough to me to be considered an equal.
I don't think that's very good roleplaying.
Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but who's to say I'm not roleplaying it out? If my pc notices
someone sneaking around or disappearing into the crowds, they'll probably ask themselves why and if
that person has a good reason to be trying to avoid detection. They'll at least be suspicious of said
person, especially if it happens frequently.
I totally agree with the OP that a failed sneak gives the wrong impression, mainly for me OOCly.
I doubt I'm the only one.
I don't see a need for a failed sneak echo. When you're sneaking around in a situation that really demands you pass the consequences are bad enough if you fail anyways. People noticing you should depend more on your relationship/appearance/manner/presence than how you walk down the street.
If you sneak.
You're trying to be sneaky.
If you fail at being so sneaky, people see you and think, "Hey, he's trying to be sneaky."
The tall muscular man moves stealthily west.
You were being stealthy, someone saw you trying to be stealthy, and the echo says you were moving west, being stealthy.
What's the deal?
???
Quote from: Qzzrbl on July 21, 2008, 05:42:42 AM
If you sneak.
You're trying to be sneaky.
If you fail at being so sneaky, people see you and think, "Hey, he's trying to be sneaky."
The tall muscular man moves stealthily west.
You were being stealthy, someone saw you trying to be stealthy, and the echo says you were moving west, being stealthy.
What's the deal?
???
They were saying that in most situations you are just trying to "blend in" with the crowd - therefore the logic was that you would not appear as someone being sneaky, but you would just appear as someone walking along with the crowd that didn't actually "blend in". So I guess they just figured you would see them "walk" to the next room instead of "stealthily" moving. The only problem is that not all rooms (we're talking city-sneak here) are full of crowds - like alleys and hallways and whatnot, so you would have to probably have a different room echo depending on the room you were trying to sneak around in. *shrug* Probably not worth the trouble since (as someone else said) you can just use your imagination and determine what someone might be doing in order to "sneak" in different environments. Also, I suppose you might look like you are trying to be sneaky when you are trying to blend in with a crowd.
So yeah, that pretty much sums up the thread.
I see it as trying to blend in a way that makes you conspicuous, when you're in a crowd. Maybe you're hunching your shoulders and checking behind you a little too often; maybe you're fiddling with your hood a bit too much, maybe there's a bit too much force in your relaxation. Maybe you're whistling nonchalantly. Maybe you're shouting at the top of your lungs that you're, "Doin' Fine! Nothin' t'see here!"
Still, if there's a huge crowd in the area, I may not notice you. You're being awkward, but there are a LOT of people.
Example of how the Shadow would like to see sneak failures work:
On a fail, each character present rolls to see if they notice it:
The elf is standing here.
The elf walks east.
You notice the elf was trying to be stealthy about it.
The Shadow above me has it right.
Seeker
What's the difference between "The elf stealthily moves west" and "You notice the elf was being stealthy about it"....
They say the exact same thing...?
Don't they?
???
Currently, when the elf fails, EVERYONE sees "the elf stealthily moves west."
The proposed change is that everyone has to roll (presumably vs. watch or scan) to see whether or not they individually notice it.
Sort of like how scan works - some people notice hidden people, some don't.
Oh, I thought that's how it worked currently.
-shrug-
I'd back that idea.