Although it doesn't affect my current character, I was thinking of a previous one that spent quite a bit of time in the Byn, and remembered that there wasn't a whole lot of parrying happening, even when veteran warriors were defending against raw Runners.
What happened to the times when parry was a warrior's best friend?
EDIT: I did see parry get used effectively. Once. By an elven NPC.
Nope. I parry quite a fair bit.
I parry a lot.
Quote from: Delstro on June 09, 2008, 07:56:35 AM
I parry a lot.
How would you define "a lot".
I remember a time when nearly every attack made on an experienced warrior would be parried.
I'm no expert, but when you parry it means that the attacker's attack was accurate, but you defended. If the attacker was less experienced, they would have just missed. Maybe trying experienced warriors against experienced warriors would provide more parries.
I have noticed that the chance to parry seems to have dropped just a tad, but I'm actually ok with that. For me, the more deadly combat is, the more realistic it seems to me.
There was a fix about 6 months ago for certain guilds that didn't get the parry skill, but were still able to. Parry still works just fine, but only by those it should work for, and not as well as a using a shield to block.
I had a HG that branched his parry skill not too long ago and although it made a huge difference his defense wasn't much better than the elf I'm playing now without the parry skill at all.
Agility is the best defence at the end of the day. It's frustrating when you're playing an HG but for everyone else it's pretty balanced I think, especially with the other skills warriors get.
also make sure you don't have combat brief set to on. It doesn't seem like this is the case, but just be sure.
Since the "fix," I've branched parry with a class that branches parry, and even after countless combat encounters and practice, it never seemed to work worth a damn.
Of course, that probably has a lot to do with the fact that every Tom, Dick, and Harry combative character now prioritizes strength....
I had a 3-hour-old character in a parryless guild parry two attacks while fighting an animal. This was last week.
It's the exact opposite of most of the anecdotal evidence in this thread, but I found it strange nonetheless.
Quote from: Fnord on June 09, 2008, 10:24:58 AM
There was a fix about 6 months ago for certain guilds that didn't get the parry skill, but were still able to. Parry still works just fine, but only by those it should work for, and not as well as a using a shield to block.
No it doesn't.
Parry does not work as well...though I still have not decided if I think that is an improvement or not.
What is sad to me is since the shield fix, you cannot block any attack cept for weapons with a shield. And you cannot block ranged attacks with a shield unless you have the parry skill and have it worked up very high. And even then, A shield works no better to parry that arrow then a toothpick...I've tested that plenty. Parry/defense nerf, probly a good thing, shield fix broke more things then it fixed.
Quote from: X-D on June 12, 2008, 04:33:58 PM
And even then, A shield works no better to parry that
When was the "fix"? 'Cause I've seen that done pretty impressively, and not all that long ago.
Brytta, the shield fix went in almost 2 years ago. One of the first things you would have noticed is that shield suddenly turned into a yes/no skill. When there used to be maybe. The next thing you would notice is that You could no longer block kicks. Yup, thats right, Even if you have a wall of a shield, you will never block a kick now. The next thing you will notice is that you no longer block any ranged attack. You did not see somebody "block" a ranged attack Brytta, you saw them PARRY the attack with a shield. Which is completly different.
IE, you now get the chance to parry ranged or dodge but not block. Used to be you had all three if you had a weapon and a shield out.
But the message "swipes at with" is parry, not block. Have somebody who has no parry skill hold a shield and you shoot at them, they will never attempt to parry the arrow, not with the shield, not with anything.
I'd like to see a shield check to block kicks and projectiles.
My parry skill works fine. There is one thing I don't like about parry though, and that is the fact that you can unrealistically parry some attacks from animals. How do you parry the charging gores of a 1000lb. carru with horns or the snapping jaws of a tembo? You can't really "parry" attacks like that. You either dodge them or kill the creature first.
QuoteI'd like to see a shield check to block kicks and projectiles.
You can block projectiles with a shield, and it appears to be based on your skill.
But as X-D went through pains to point out: you will block it with your shield based on your -parry- skill, -not- on your shield use skill. I suspect that Sephiroto was suggesting that projectile-blocking checks with a shield should be based on either a) the shield use skill or b) some combination of parry and shield use, such that without the parry skill, an adept shield user would still have a reasonable chance of blocking projectiles.
Quote from: Synthesis on June 12, 2008, 06:29:10 PM
But as X-D went through pains to point out: you will block it with your shield based on your -parry- skill, -not- on your shield use skill. I suspect that Sephiroto was suggesting that projectile-blocking checks with a shield should be based on either a) the shield use skill or b) some combination of parry and shield use, such that without the parry skill, an adept shield user would still have a reasonable chance of blocking projectiles.
No, I've seen a character -block- projectiles with a shield. Using the block skill.
To be fair, I -think- the character was a special app, but I dunno.
Heh, I was only quoting X-D, as I rarely play warriors, and haven't played a non-HG warrior since the parry "fix."
Understood. It also doesn't invalidate what he says about the shield fix. There's a lot that needs to be patched in that patch.
As far as deflectng arrows (with a shield or weapon ... though I would think a shield would be easier) I would personally like to see it changed so that it only happens if you happen to be watching the direction that the arrow came from.
I just feel like it's a bit much to assume that every character is always watching the horizon in every direction so as to see something as small as an arrow coming towards them from a long ways away.
Of course, I have no experience with the code, so for all I know it may already be like this, or be similiar to it.
/derail
I've also had my character parry even though they don't have the skill, more than once. But since I don't know what the "norm" for how often a character should parry is ... I can't really attest to how broken it may or may not be.
Quote from: musashi on June 12, 2008, 06:59:32 PMI just feel like it's a bit much to assume that every character is always watching the horizon in every direction so as to see something as small as an arrow coming towards them from a long ways away.
Armageddon is heavily influenced by D&D. In D&D, all creatures and PCs are constantly (and rapidly) spinning around during combat. See? It makes sense.
Quote from: Mood on June 12, 2008, 07:36:26 PM
Quote from: musashi on June 12, 2008, 06:59:32 PMI just feel like it's a bit much to assume that every character is always watching the horizon in every direction so as to see something as small as an arrow coming towards them from a long ways away.
Armageddon is heavily influenced by D&D. In D&D, all creatures and PCs are constantly (and rapidly) spinning around during combat. See? It makes sense.
Then can we have a whirlwind attack skill?
You have seen a projectile blocked with a shield in the last 2 years Tis?
See, in that time I've had some extremely long lived warriors,(as in well over 70 days) And they have been shot at and thrown at thousands of times, and seen other people thrown and shot at thousands of times, and I have not seen a single projectile block in that time, Parry, sure, do that all the time, no blocks.
QuoteArmageddon is heavily influenced by D&D. In D&D, all creatures and PCs are constantly (and rapidly) spinning around during combat. See? It makes sense.
Not in the 2nd ed. AD&D campaign I'm playing in.
And hopefully not in Armageddon. :-\
Quote from: X-D on June 12, 2008, 07:52:34 PM
You have seen a projectile blocked with a shield in the last 2 years Tis?
Yes, I have. Just once. I did a doubletake at the time, and checked my scroll to be sure.
I've seen a high to mid range warrior consistently block arrows with a shield. Within the past two months. It was reliable.
Block, or parry?
I see both block and parry quite a lot with most of my chars. But I've never seen a missle blocked.
And it must have been blocked, cumon it's practically impossible to parry and arrow away with your sword...well I know I couldn't do it.....I'd just get the arrow in my face :'(
I'm currently investigating a potential bug with shield use and blocking both missile weapons and regular attacks. I will get back to you guys soon.
You rock, sir.
Three cheers for Morg keeping the fixes to Arm 1 coming, even with Arm 2 on the horizon!
Seriously.
Awesome.
But prepare for next topic: Missile weapons have been nerfed. ;)
Morgenes: Did you ever get enough info about two handed to make an assessment on the skill being balanced or not with the changes? I'm curious about this as it pertains to parry.
I've had a character guarding someone while protecting them from incoming missiles using my weapons, no shield though.
shields are for nubs.
I've noticied less effectivity with the shield, actually.
So hold on...people are saying that they have deflected missles with just a weapon??? :O In real life ain't that nearly impossible unless you practice all the time?
I think the whole "parrying arrows with a sword/club/dagger/whatever" is a little silly myself, but I'm sure a lot of people would jump up in a hurry to say that this is a fantasy game and they want their warriors to be able to deflect arrows with a blade just like in the movies.
Parrying an arrow is kinda stupid. Blocking an arrow with a shield is something I expect anybody who knows how to use a shield would know how to do, practice doing (New sparring drill, train archers, throwers and shield users!), and try to do in that situation.
Think about walking along with a shield and -twang-... your gonna go "Oh Shit!" and cringe behind your shield, or at least I would.
And yes, If I'm guarding someone I'm gonna be glued to their ass enough to guard them from an arrow with my shield or body one.
This topic again? http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,29521.0.html (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,29521.0.html)
Quote from: musashi on June 14, 2008, 07:48:03 AM
but I'm sure a lot of people would jump up in a hurry to say that this is a fantasy game and they want their warriors to be able to deflect arrows with a blade just like in the movies.
I don't care how unrealistic parrying an arrow with a sword is. It's fucking cool. This isn't a real life simulator.
I agree with the above post.
Also, it's not like -every- pc out there can do it either, only those who are pretty skilled. I enjoy a bit of unrealistic fantasy in my fantasy games, I don't know about some of the others around here though. If not, I think they should find non-fantasy games to play. *shrug* If I can suspend disbelief for magick and all sorts of fantasy creatures, I think I can handled a skilled warrior being able to deflect projectiles with their weapons.
"Unrealistic", once again, is a ridiculous term to throw out in a world with fucking two ton insects walking around.
Armageddon may not be a real-life simulator, but it -is- a Zalanthas simulator, and one that the staff has said they want to be as "realistic" as possible. I happen to find it easily believable that highly-skilled warriors could bat projectiles out of the air. Probably not with as much accuracy as some can, though. It should also be -much- more easy to block a projectile with a shield than parry it.
I want to see realism to the point that -Zalanthas- is simulated accurately and consistently.
I agree that blocking an arrow with a shield should be easier than parrying one with a blade.
Just to clarify when people say parry an arrow with a blade. When you say parry are you saying that they cut the arrow in half? or the actually just block it with the blade?
What does it matter? I'm pretty sure it means to knock it out of the air with your weapon, but I have no idea what the code does, and that should be left to find out IC anyways.
Quote from: Inix77 on June 14, 2008, 02:09:25 PM
When you say parry are you saying that they cut the arrow in half? or the actually just block it with the blade?
Since parrying an arrow with a blade is already in the realm of fantasy why not interpret it however you like? Rather than in half, I'd say they are splitting the shaft lengthwise with a well-timed chop - it's even funnier to imagine. However, if you parry a sling-thrown stone with a club but it is only deflected two rooms away then you earn a ground rule double.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 14, 2008, 12:30:05 PM
I don't care how unrealistic parrying an arrow with a sword is. It's fucking cool. This isn't a real life simulator.
Right, like I said ...
I would rather have missle deflection be something far easier to pull off with a shield than dual wielding a pair of bone scimitars.
I would also rather have it so that folks only did that if they were looking (ie "watching" syntax wise) in the direction the arrows were coming from.
But ... eh, just my opinion.
My character can parry arrows with a fork, while focussing on her dinner. She's that cool.
What were we talking about?
Quote from: Maso on June 17, 2008, 07:19:55 AM
My character can parry arrows with a fork, while focussing on her dinner. She's that cool.
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
Quote from: Morgenes on June 13, 2008, 11:21:29 AM
I'm currently investigating a potential bug with shield use and blocking both missile weapons and regular attacks. I will get back to you guys soon.
I have pushed a fix that will open shield use back to blocking kicks and missile weapons. While doing this, I have updated the code for parrying & blocking missile weapons to take more things into account, while on the whole making parrying arrows harder overall. Blocking arrows with shield use is the much more reliable way to stop an arrow. Being attentive will also help you with either parrying or blocking. If you are not attacking the person who is attacking you (if you're fighting at all), you will find it harder to block with your shield or parry (missile weapons and kicks only)
In Morgenes, I trust.
Morgenes is now the roxors.
I do have to say I cant figure out a scenario where you would be fighting a person who could use a projectile against you...But I'm glad to know that if someone figures out how to crossbow me while I am whacking on them with my sword, my shield will be taken into account. ;)
You ... are ... soo .... awesome! :o
Morgenes, you are ten Jihaens. Please start a secret clan of which you are the Top Imm so that I can be your minion.
Uh, don't mention this to my current Top Imms.
Quote from: Desertman on June 23, 2008, 04:53:06 PMI do have to say I cant figure out a scenario where you would be fighting a person who could use a projectile against you...But I'm glad to know that if someone figures out how to crossbow me while I am whacking on them with my sword, my shield will be taken into account. ;)
It's more an issue that it's harder to block a projectile if you're actively fighting someone else.
A and B are fighting.
C shoots at A.
A has a small chance of blocking C's projectile, because he's fighting B.I realize that shooting/throwing into a combat should have a chance to hit random combatants, that will come in a later patch.
Quote from: Morgenes on June 23, 2008, 07:43:12 PM
Quote from: Desertman on June 23, 2008, 04:53:06 PMI do have to say I cant figure out a scenario where you would be fighting a person who could use a projectile against you...But I'm glad to know that if someone figures out how to crossbow me while I am whacking on them with my sword, my shield will be taken into account. ;)
It's more an issue that it's harder to block a projectile if you're actively fighting someone else.
A and B are fighting.
C shoots at A.
A has a small chance of blocking C's projectile, because he's fighting B.
I realize that shooting/throwing into a combat should have a chance to hit random combatants, that will come in a later patch.
...hit random combatants, of course also modified by skill of the thrower? Yeah, yeah. I know. You've already thought about that. You're always three steps ahead of me, Morgenes! *shakes fist*
I feel like a bitch for bringing this up in the face of the recent fixes:
does/will your fix also start taking into account different kinds of shields? So that my kank-shell kite shield will block better than my buddy's woodframe silk round?
Quote from: Tisiphone on June 24, 2008, 12:48:42 AM
I feel like a bitch for bringing this up in the face of the recent fixes:
does/will your fix also start taking into account different kinds of shields? So that my kank-shell kite shield will block better than my buddy's woodframe silk round?
No, but how you wield/hold/etwo your shield will make a difference. Unfortunately, something like you suggest would be a really cool idea, but much beyond the scope of the intended change. This would require coming up with a way to denote the different types of shields and updating the database of shields with this information in addition to the code changes (which would be minimal really) to use this data.
Quote from: Morgenes on June 24, 2008, 09:43:34 AM
Quote from: Tisiphone on June 24, 2008, 12:48:42 AM
I feel like a bitch for bringing this up in the face of the recent fixes:
does/will your fix also start taking into account different kinds of shields? So that my kank-shell kite shield will block better than my buddy's woodframe silk round?
No, but how you wield/hold/etwo your shield will make a difference. Unfortunately, something like you suggest would be a really cool idea, but much beyond the scope of the intended change. This would require coming up with a way to denote the different types of shields and updating the database of shields with this information in addition to the code changes (which would be minimal really) to use this data.
Dare we hope this idea makes it into Arm.2? *Hint, hint, beg, supplicate, put-up-sign-on-forehead-offering-free-brains*
Quote from: Pale Horse on June 24, 2008, 10:03:39 AM
Quote from: Morgenes on June 24, 2008, 09:43:34 AM
Quote from: Tisiphone on June 24, 2008, 12:48:42 AM
I feel like a bitch for bringing this up in the face of the recent fixes:
does/will your fix also start taking into account different kinds of shields? So that my kank-shell kite shield will block better than my buddy's woodframe silk round?
No, but how you wield/hold/etwo your shield will make a difference. Unfortunately, something like you suggest would be a really cool idea, but much beyond the scope of the intended change. This would require coming up with a way to denote the different types of shields and updating the database of shields with this information in addition to the code changes (which would be minimal really) to use this data.
Dare we hope this idea makes it into Arm.2? *Hint, hint, beg, supplicate, put-up-sign-on-forehead-offering-free-brains*
Can pretty well guarantee it will.
This thread makes me happy in my pants.
Quote from: Morgenes on June 24, 2008, 09:43:34 AM
Quote from: Tisiphone on June 24, 2008, 12:48:42 AM
I feel like a bitch for bringing this up in the face of the recent fixes: does/will your fix also start taking into account different kinds of shields? So that my kank-shell kite shield will block better than my buddy's woodframe silk round?
No, but how you wield/hold/etwo your shield will make a difference. Unfortunately, something like you suggest would be a really cool idea, but much beyond the scope of the intended change. This would require coming up with a way to denote the different types of shields and updating the database of shields with this information in addition to the code changes (which would be minimal really) to use this data.
Wouldn't the shield's intrisicate(sp?) armor value, weight and the material used be a good number to use for such a calculation? Obviously, the toughness of the shield, the weight of the shield, and the material are all values that are input by the builder. In the case of a hypothetical tower shield, for instance, the fact that it weighs 40 stone would indicate that it is big. The fact that it is made of mekkilot bone means that it is strong. Add the fact that it considered to have 340 toughness is a positive number to subtract or divide another number against. Because it weighs a lot, it might not be manuvuerable by your comparative strength, but it enhances protection when not in combat and watching in a particular direction. On the other hand, a smaller, more mobile shield of silk and wood would work better in a "suddenly an arrow arrives from the west' senario, while not providing much staying power and such.
Obviously, this is not really an issue Morg, but I'm just ideaing the values that I would use in creating a mathmatical formula to address that aspect of shield use. :)
Awesome job.
Quote from: Sephiroto on June 12, 2008, 05:27:05 PM
I'd like to see a shield check to block kicks and projectiles.
My parry skill works fine. There is one thing I don't like about parry though, and that is the fact that you can unrealistically parry some attacks from animals. How do you parry the charging gores of a 1000lb. carru with horns or the snapping jaws of a tembo? You can't really "parry" attacks like that. You either dodge them or kill the creature first.
Hmm parrying a carru charge is kinda far-fetched I agree, but I can imagine parrying a tembo bite, i.e. giving it a mouthful of obsidian shortsword, heh.
Parrying is just deflecting something enough with your weapon, so that it doesn't hit you. If you hit something that's lunging for you in the muzzle, and it bites off to the side, that's an instance I could see parrying an animal. It should maybe do the animal a tiny amount of damage? But maybe not even enough to reflect in HP.