Isn't it a bit silly that even if you're trying to climb up or down in darkness, you still "stumble around in the darkness and lose your bearings" to the point that you don't know your up from your down? Take, for example, the following. You know that you're in a pit or a chute of some sort, but you don't have a light source.
Darkness
Total darkness surrounds you, preventing you from seeing anything.
at all. You have trouble telling where to put your feet when you walk.
>d
You stumble around in the darkness and lose your bearings.
Alas, you cannot go that way.
>d
You stumble around in the darkness and lose your bearings.
Alas, you cannot go that way.
>d
You stumble around in the darkness and lose your bearings.
You carefully climb up.
Darkness
Total darkness surrounds you, preventing you from seeing anything.
at all. You have trouble telling where to put your feet when you walk.
>d
You stumble around in the darkness and lose your bearings.
Alas, you cannot go that way.
Etc.
Sure, there should be a penalty to climbing in darkness, but my character should never be confusing up and down. Especially I'm climbing up a chute of up/down only rooms, or I've fallen down a shaft and I want to climb back up. It's sheer annoying when I'm trying to climb out of a hole, but 80% of my commands are ignored because my character is so terribly blinded that they don't know up from down, and stumble accordingly.
And as an aside, I know its good practice to always have a spare torch on you. I just don't think you should need one to know up from down while climbing sheer surfaces. You would have to make an exception for U and D exits that are not climbing, because your character might reasonably get lost in the darkness trying to go through one of those. But for climbing a sheer surface? No. Darkness should not be so bad that my character will get so lost that he/she ends up climbing down when I have commanded them to climb up, or vice versa.
In the dark, I agree, but not with sandstorms.
Would be pretty hard to spot handholds and other essential climbing things in the dark, wouldn't it?
Quote from: hyzhenhok on June 07, 2008, 04:04:33 AM
Sure, there should be a penalty to climbing in darkness, but my character should never be confusing up and down.
Quote from: qzzrbl
Would be pretty hard to spot handholds and other essential climbing things in the dark, wouldn't it?
I think the original post was clear.
Seeker
So what exactly is the request? Do you want to be able to climb normally in the dark, or do you want climbing to not be an option with the randomized movement? I'm not too strong on either. For one, the second option eliminates the ability to stumble off a ledge in the darkness. That should still be a possible outcome. Secondly, you assume that when you climb, you just climb straight up without any problems. In the dark, you can't pick out a clear path, so you might eventually come to a spot with no sufficient handholds. Then you might try to scoot over the side or climb back down to try to find another path. The randomized movement sufficiently simulates the difficulty of this in my mind.
I think the simple solution that is being asked for is to make it so that UP and DOWN exits are not effected by randomized directions in the dark. It really doesn't make sense that you can't figure out where up or down is. Now, instead of randomized directions when trying to go UP/DOWN in the dark, there should be a penalty to the climb skill.
Simply, straightforward, sensible. What's the issue?
Quote from: psionic fungus on June 07, 2008, 01:38:12 PM
I think the simple solution that is being asked for is to make it so that UP and DOWN exits are not effected by randomized directions in the dark. It really doesn't make sense that you can't figure out where up or down is. Now, instead of randomized directions when trying to go UP/DOWN in the dark, there should be a penalty to the climb skill.
Simply, straightforward, sensible. What's the issue?
Read the above post.
QuoteRead the above post.
Huh? I did. Care to elaborate?
If you are refering to this:
QuoteIn the dark, you can't pick out a clear path, so you might eventually come to a spot with no sufficient handholds. Then you might try to scoot over the side or climb back down to try to find another path. The randomized movement sufficiently simulates the difficulty of this in my mind.
I disagree. Not being able to find a hand-hold in the dark is going to make me fail to go up or down, and possibly fall. It is not going to make me attempt to go "east" when I am in a tube slightly larger than the size of my body. When there is no way to go east or west or north or south, it seems pretty ridiculous that my character would "accidentally" attempt to go that direction when trying to go UP. Obviously, a simple failure of the climb check is more appropriate.
I think PF has it exactly. The OP's issue was successfully climbing in a different direction that you thought you did, which shouldn't be possible. If you are completely buried in snow experts recommend spitting before digging to determine which direction is up; employing a similar strategy here would prevent climbing (not falling) in the wrong direction.
It's a lot easier to fall down than up. I'd like only up to be taken out of the equation.
Quote from: psionic fungus on June 07, 2008, 01:46:27 PM
I disagree. Not being able to find a hand-hold in the dark is going to make me fail to go up or down, and possibly fall.
You're assuming that when you climb, you simply go up. A simple skill check, and that's it. In truth, you pick a path along the surface you're climbing until you get to the top. Without sight, you're simply reaching out to grope surface until you can grab something. You drift to the left. You drift to the right. You find dead ends where you can no longer climb and must move down again until you can find a different path. This sort of thing is exhausting and frustrating work. You do go east because you have very little sense of where you are. Sometimes, you are forced to double back because you can't follow your current path anymore.
Quote from: psionic fungus on June 07, 2008, 01:46:27 PM
It is not going to make me attempt to go "east" when I am in a tube slightly larger than the size of my body. When there is no way to go east or west or north or south, it seems pretty ridiculous that my character would "accidentally" attempt to go that direction when trying to go UP. Obviously, a simple failure of the climb check is more appropriate.
Obviously not. This penalty adds a real consumption of time to the activity which is wholly appropriate. Besides, what if while you're climbing through that tube, you stick your arm into a crack leading to a chamber where a terrible beasty waits to tear you limb from limb? Or maybe there's the end of the ledge. You might slip if you wander in that direction.
So we get to what this sort of change really is, a way of reducing reducing risk in what is a very risky situation.
That's laughable, but okay... I agree to disagree.
I find it annoying to see myself "stumble" around, when clinging to a ledge, and then not be able to go a direction I wasn't attempting to go. It's not hard to move yourself in a generally upwards direction and, again, I think that a climb failure more accurately represents failing to find a route upwards than arbitrary moving in a random direction.
Certainly there are places in the game where you can traverse multiple rooms, but I don't think that anyone would unintentionally move that far in one direction while trying to ascend a cliff without making significant progress upwards as well... And in that case there should be something very different happening with the code.
I certainly don't think that an increase in your chance to fall when climbing in the dark is any attempt to make climbing more safe. That's a good one, though.
Up and down...ehh...I see Dalmeth's point. But I still think you should have a greater risk of slipping and falling, as well, in the dark.
Honestly I've been more confused by being in a sandstorm, with the wind out of the north and trying to move south and suddenly finding myself moving north into the wind and sand. I mean, I think I'd notice that as soon as the sand was flying up my nose instead of pelting the back of my head through my sandcloth cloak. Not ranger movement...but if I'm walking south I can at least you the blinding sand as a reference and only go east, west, or south, and not north...or up for that matter. (falling down a hole is very realistic)
Quote from: Shoka Windrunner on June 09, 2008, 11:41:55 AM
Up and down...ehh...I see Dalmeth's point. But I still think you should have a greater risk of slipping and falling, as well, in the dark.
Honestly I've been more confused by being in a sandstorm, with the wind out of the north and trying to move south and suddenly finding myself moving north into the wind and sand. I mean, I think I'd notice that as soon as the sand was flying up my nose instead of pelting the back of my head through my sandcloth cloak. Not ranger movement...but if I'm walking south I can at least you the blinding sand as a reference and only go east, west, or south, and not north...or up for that matter. (falling down a hole is very realistic)
But if my PC is not a ranger ... knowing where "north" is to begin with (without a road or something to show him where to go) may not be something he's is able to discern in the first place.
Plus when I was in Iraq and got to see a sandstorm up close, it didn't really feel like it was blowing from any one direction, rather, it was coming from everywhere at once.
We had to walk outside and play in it of course ... but we used a rope to make sure we could pull ourselves back to the bunker ;D
EDIT: So as not to derail, I think you should be able to travel up and down without the risk of getting lost, although I think the penalties for climbing in complete darkness should be hefty as well.
Sandstorm navigation should be a thing any character can learn.
Only rangers should get it perfectly, and do it well straight off the bat. Others, after many years out in sandy conditions, should be able to function well, but they still wouldn't want to walk near a cliff in a raging sandstorm.
Quote from: Shoka Windrunner on June 09, 2008, 11:41:55 AM
Up and down...ehh...I see Dalmeth's point. But I still think you should have a greater risk of slipping and falling, as well, in the dark.
Why should you have a greater chance of slipping? Does darkness affect your grip? The lack of sight doesn't necessarily mean you can't judge what's stable and what's not. In fact, I'd imagine sight has very little to do with that.
I would think that things like not being able to look down and see where to put my feet next, along with having to perhaps, hang on by one hand while I feel around for the next spot to grip above me, hoping its stable, would mean that I'd be more prone to slip and fall than if I had light.
I dunno, I just feel like common sense = things that require hand-eye cordination are more difficult to do in the dark. :-\
I mean, I see what you're saying, that technically, one doesn't have to look to climb ... but technically, I don't have to look to play guitar either ... but if I don't look, the odds of me making a mistake go up quite a bit, because I'm used to looking. I just figure climb would be kind of similiar.
I agree with PF. Nonrandom up/downs, appropriate penalties to climb in situations of reduced visibility.
I agree as well.
People getting lost trying to climb a sheer surface by hand? Well, I guess I can accept that with a bit of a stretch. My character couldn't find I way up on his current path, so he had to go back. Fine.
But what about those using rope? There's really no excuse for me trying to climb up with a rope, and accidentally going down, or vice versa.
So IMO the best, most consistent and logical mechanic would be to grant a penalty for climbing in darkness. This penalty would be higher for those climbing barehanded than for those using climbing rope for obvious reasons.
I would much rather see the inability to find an appropriate route represented through a failed climb check - rather than disorientation...
Two 'sids.
.
This is something that has irked me as well. Up should be taken out of the direction randomizer and when climbing in the dark I do agree that the only directions that should be in the equation are up and down and maybe the message should be a bit more explicit about climbing down out of confusion. Maybe instead of it making, "you lose your bearings and climb down," it tells you that, "you slip from the ledge and fall." And you definitely shouldn't fall up if you're trying to go do so when going down in darkness or a sandstorm, down should be the only direction you go.
Quote from: Archbaron on June 19, 2008, 10:50:11 PM
This is something that has irked me as well. Up should be taken out of the direction randomizer and when climbing in the dark I do agree that the only directions that should be in the equation are up and down and maybe the message should be a bit more explicit about climbing down out of confusion. Maybe instead of it making, "you lose your bearings and climb down," it tells you that, "you slip from the ledge and fall." And you definitely shouldn't fall up if you're trying to go do so when going down in darkness or a sandstorm, down should be the only direction you go.
Or as Dalmeth has said, 'You reach a point with no more handholds and climb back down to find another path.'
That would be sufficient. 'You slip and fall' is already part of the equation, so a different message would be nice.
Just make it so you cant accidently climb up or down in darkness. Simple.
You can say..."What if THIS scenario happens"
But typically, UP squares indicate scaling sheer surfaces. Its much more realistic to NOT accidently climb up a cliff face in the blinding darkness than anything else you can think up and propose.
The blue-eyed man says in sirihish, peering up the steep cliff face, "How did you get up there?"
The uber-climbing blind man says in sirhish, peering down the steep cliff face, "Well, there was this sandstorm, and I didnt realize I spent an hour climbing hand over hand straight up this cliff."
Dont be silly, you know what the origional poster is talking about, and you know what he is proposing is much more feasable than any "CHANCE" scenarios you can pull out of your butts.
Just barely off this topic:
For moving in sandstorms, there are three things I would like to see.
1) (discussed elsewhere) A skill for navigating sandstorms for all classes, with Rangers getting it as a main guild skill.
2) More movement failures in sandstorms. "You try to press on in the storm but cannot make any progress."
3) Wind direction affecting failure chances. For example, if the wind is from the west, going West is really hard, going East is easier. North and South are more likely to land you West than East.
Morrolan