In Zalanthan terms, what is the sort of boundary line that makes your character rich? What amount of money does the average merchant have to have to be considered 'wealthy'?
The ability to feed and clothe yourself daily, and not have to work for it?
When your money makes money, THEN you're rich...
I don't think there is any really specific value. Think that food is like 20 coins, and water is 30ish to SURVIVE a day... so as long as you've got enough money to last yourself a month, you're probably doing better than the rest of the population.
Rich is probably more sid than you need to survive from day to day. So if can afford food(more than need to survive) and water, have some left over would be rich.
Amish Overlord 8)
Quote from: amish overlord on May 13, 2008, 06:21:10 PM
Rich is probably more sid than you need to survive from day to day. So if can afford food(more than need to survive) and water, have some left over would be rich.
Amish Overlord 8)
In other words, almost every single PC who has ever existed has been In The Money.
Being rich is the ability to drink one's milkshake, or a milkshake of another, using a straw that reaches acrooooooss the room.
Quote from: Tisiphone on May 13, 2008, 06:26:08 PM
Quote from: amish overlord on May 13, 2008, 06:21:10 PM
Rich is probably more sid than you need to survive from day to day. So if can afford food(more than need to survive) and water, have some left over would be rich.
Amish Overlord 8)
In other words, almost every single PC who has ever existed has been In The Money.
Pretty much most PC's would be upper lower class/middle class/lower upper class when compared to npc's and Vnpcs. To be richs as player would say have good supply food/water(be it can afford), decent clothes and some sid in the bank for emergencies.
Amish Overlord 8)
Well.. it's been said before.. PCs will never reflect the majority of the population.
I often found it more hard to play poor person, trying to scratch by. Even my two beggars were not too horribly off.
Amish Overlord 8)
Quote from: manonfire on May 13, 2008, 06:33:57 PM
Well.. it's been said before.. PCs will never reflect the majority of the population.
Absolutely, and I'm not complaining. I just want that be to clear, financially as well as socially.
Quote from: manonfire on May 13, 2008, 06:31:10 PM
Being rich is the ability to drink one's milkshake, or a milkshake of another, using a straw that reaches acrooooooss the room.
Quoted for absolute-Truth
I like playing paupers. Most of the time I junk my coin and start from the bottom, scavenging, stealing, looting the corpses and so on. Great fun! Especially in the rinth.
Did I hear somewhere that your starting money is a rough yearly wage for a commoner?
Maybe work it out from that.
I go by the generality of wealthy = silks.
There's rich and then there's rich.
Rich is generally being able to have more than enough money for what you need and some extra things.
RICH is being able to drop 5k+ on a bribe without batting an eye.
Sort of like the Chris Rock comparison:
A basket ball star is rich ...
The man who signs the basket ball stars' paychecks ... is wealthy.
In Zalanthas, everyone is in the same income tax bracket.
Quote from: Rahnevyn on May 14, 2008, 03:59:34 AM
In Zalanthas, everyone is in the same income tax bracket.
The ... you have as many sids as the templarate say you do, bracket?
It is odd that rinthers start with the same amount of sid as a normal Allanaki citizen. :-\
Spice.
2k+ weekly income.
I HAVE SO MANY GOOD ANSWERS TONIGHT!
Wealth is defiantly relative in Arm. If you have enough money/income to sustain yourself and have money left over for personal indulgences (within reason) you'd be considered well off by most commoner standards.
Rich though? No. Wealth in my opinion is also dependent on your social standing as well. Having enough money to impress a noble or a templar and to bribe them into your pocket is -much- harder to achieve.
There is always a divide between the old money and the new money. Someone who is say a noble or a templar might lose sight of the value of cold hard obsidian money in favor of social standings, holdings (i.e. properties, slaves), and political influence.
Quote from: Ender on May 15, 2008, 05:43:53 AM
There is always a divide between the old money and the new money. Someone who is say a noble or a templar might lose sight of the value of cold hard obsidian money in favor of social standings, holdings (i.e. properties, slaves), and political influence.
That was very well put. Thanks :)
Quote from: Ender on May 15, 2008, 05:43:53 AM
There is always a divide between the old money and the new money. Someone who is say a noble or a templar might lose sight of the value of cold hard obsidian money in favor of social standings, holdings (i.e. properties, slaves), and political influence.
This becomes significantly less likely if you have enough to make up the difference. If you're offering Templar Hard Nose FIFTY TIMES AS MUCH 'sid - you know, regularly sinking 20k into his Nenyuk account - that evens things out a little.
In my economics class this past semester one of the things we studied was how money is spent, and why the distribution of wealth is important for a nation's well-being. One of the big reasons was that very wealthy people, loosely speaking, already have all of the things that money can buy, so if only wealthy people in a nation have the money, then the nation's economy runs into trouble because the money never goes anywhere. The rich folks don't spend as rapidly as the people on the bottom because they have what they want already in terms of material goods.
Again that's loosely defined.
I still feel that for Armageddon, Ender brought up the best way to define who is rich and who isn't.
Almost every PC will put a bit of money in the bank if they hang around long enough ... but the rich people, have the things money can't purchase.
I am in no way talking about love :P
Quote from: Tisiphone on May 15, 2008, 09:00:34 AM
Quote from: Ender on May 15, 2008, 05:43:53 AM
There is always a divide between the old money and the new money. Someone who is say a noble or a templar might lose sight of the value of cold hard obsidian money in favor of social standings, holdings (i.e. properties, slaves), and political influence.
This becomes significantly less likely if you have enough to make up the difference. If you're offering Templar Hard Nose FIFTY TIMES AS MUCH 'sid - you know, regularly sinking 20k into his Nenyuk account - that evens things out a little.
If you have that much money to burn regularly I don't think anyone would question if you were rich or not.
Quote from: Ender on May 15, 2008, 11:36:57 AM
Quote from: Tisiphone on May 15, 2008, 09:00:34 AM
Quote from: Ender on May 15, 2008, 05:43:53 AM
There is always a divide between the old money and the new money. Someone who is say a noble or a templar might lose sight of the value of cold hard obsidian money in favor of social standings, holdings (i.e. properties, slaves), and political influence.
This becomes significantly less likely if you have enough to make up the difference. If you're offering Templar Hard Nose FIFTY TIMES AS MUCH 'sid - you know, regularly sinking 20k into his Nenyuk account - that evens things out a little.
If you have that much money to burn regularly I don't think anyone would question if you were rich or not.
If you have that much money to burn ONCE most people would agree you were rich, but I was simply making a point.
I'd like to see militia in both cities cracking down on rich commoners who have no actual power or influence.
Pay them even less to force them into taking bribes and extorting! LIKE IT SHOULD BE! :P
Quote from: Spoon on May 15, 2008, 11:58:39 AM
Pay them even less to force them into taking bribes and extorting! LIKE IT SHOULD BE! :P
You're probably wildly overestimating how much soldiers are currently paid. Really, it's not the fault of the militia in either city-state that they don't take bribes; for the most part, PCs do not offer them, and attempts to extort get thwarted by third parties.
Awww. I got my PC elf in Tuluk fined for having flashpowder in his pack by a dwarf in the Sun Legions once.
It was great. The dwarf didn't even TRY to make it look like it was actually mine. IT WAS AWESOME!
But that's never happened again. Someone needs to cram some corruption into these soldiers! You're not combat clans, you're BENT COPPERS!
(I'm aware of the fact you could call the Arm/Sun Legions combat clans, I just mean there's more to it)
So hurry up and mug some spam crafters.
Every militia/legion PC I ever had could be bribed, even the HG's.
Sadly, very few even try. Something like 1 of 30 criminals.
Quote from: X-D on May 15, 2008, 12:40:15 PM
Every militia/legion PC I ever had could be bribed, even the HG's.
Sadly, very few even try. Something like 1 of 30 criminals.
Bribes fuel the whole political scene, but I'm willing to bet people let real-world attitudes influence their PCs actions here. They're probably afraid that offering a bribe would be insulting or just make the situation worse, as it would in many (of course, not all) cases with modern law enforcement agencies. But, that's the thing: these
aren't modern law enforcement agencies. Templars extort 'sids and accept bribes, and I'm sure no Militia or Legion PC is going to be too badly reprimanded for doing the same (on a much smaller scale, of course). I say, go for it.
Bribes are -expected-. NOT offering a bribe is an insult. I've seen at least one character die for not doing so.
Quote from: X-D on May 15, 2008, 12:40:15 PM
Every militia/legion PC I ever had could be bribed, even the HG's.
Sadly, very few even try. Something like 1 of 30 criminals.
Ditto, and absolutely correct.
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on May 15, 2008, 01:12:52 PM
I'm sure no Militia or Legion PC is going to be too badly reprimanded for doing the same (on a much smaller scale, of course). I say, go for it.
It really depends. If you want to find out how things actually play out, YOU go for it. I've already been there, done that ;) I'll just say in brief: As a soldier, you will never make a living on bribes or extortion, as the game is currently played by both those you are extorting and those in authority over you. It's a very sad case of the awesome documentation being totally not followed by the playerbase as a whole.
I can say from personal experience that bribing guards is awesome and has great results.
In my dream world, the law would be only laxly enforced until someone started throwing money around. Actually, it may already be a bit like that in game, depending on the players and events involved. :)
Quote from: Tisiphone on May 15, 2008, 01:14:17 PM
Bribes are -expected-. NOT offering a bribe is an insult. I've seen at least one character die for not doing so.
I've
had at least one character die for not offering a bribe. I was oddly okay with it, so like I said, bribe harder, everyone!
Quote from: Gimfalisette on May 15, 2008, 02:13:34 PM
It's a very sad case of the awesome documentation being totally not followed by the playerbase as a whole.
Just another in a long line, really. It's not game-ruining, of course, just a little disappointing.
Quote from: X-D on May 15, 2008, 12:40:15 PM
Every militia/legion PC I ever had could be bribed, even the HG's.
Sadly, very few even try. Something like 1 of 30 criminals.
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on May 15, 2008, 01:12:52 PM
They're probably afraid that offering a bribe would be insulting
My PC's never offer bribe because they think it would be insulting to the templarate... This isn't because I don't think they'd accept my bribe I just only could bribe them with the shirt off my back or MAYBE my pants, but I don't like not having pants. Sometimes I might have boots or a few 'sids.
Groveling, you say to the cruel templar,in sirihish
"Please don't kill me, you can have my cloths!"
If you don't have the bribe today, promise you will get the authority figure X coins within Y weeks. (Say, 100 coins in 2 Zalanthan weeks.) Then, make good on your promise. The authority figure will like you for the bribe, and also for the fact that they didn't have to hunt you down and kill you.
Really, bribes can be a lot of things, not just coins. Be creative. BRIBE MORE.
Quote from: Tisiphone on May 15, 2008, 01:14:17 PM
Bribes are -expected-. NOT offering a bribe is an insult. I've seen at least one character die for not doing so.
This goes across all levels of the spectrum. Bribes are never insulting. You just have to do it the right way. If you go in with the attitude (even in Allanak) that you can simply throw sid at a problem and make it go away without at least paying lip service at the same time, your bribe CAN be taken the wrong way.
Either way, it will be taken, so why not bribe?
Does anyone else here get the impression that the system is somewhat against bribery? I find that the tightly regimented armies that almost every aspect of civilization employs restricts the perception of bribality? I mean, why do soldiers even take bribes now? Because this is a game. Bribery is fun. However, what material good does extra money do for a soldier? They can buy more drinks at the taverns? They can buy that extra pretty axe that their lives are absolutely hollow without? What else can they do? Can they even use their position to guarantee themselves a decent place to live? They're expected to report back to a barracks every day and are under the constant supervision of a superior officer without whom, they are powerless to act.
I'd suggest a more disorganized system whereby those admitted to a law enforcement agency are expected to act professionally from the start. Not only are they expected to enforce the law, but keep the peace. This doesn't always mean following the law to the letter, because the world at large is much less under control. You simply don't have enough people to send the law into every dark corner. A law enforcement officer squeezes one direction, some criminal runs another, maybe kills a few people in the process or tries to overthrow your authority. So long as they're paying you to keep off their backs, you at least have some dialog with them, and with that, you have some control. It's time to stop thinking of bribery as corruption and more of a method of control, as getting the people who aren't going to go by the letter of the law working with you. Unfortunately, most law enforcement types simply don't have the authority to establish that sort of relationship.
I'm kind of eager to see how the Watchers of Basal will turn out. Depending on how they're controlled and organized, they may turn out to be tons more fun. Just imagine getting a bribe that lets you get into a slightly higher, much larger home on the level you're currently on, or maybe you get some money that lets a deal go down that makes you a much richer man for letting a smuggler get a few items in. I think it's going to be a lot more fun when the law enforcement officials are given the power to be political players in their own authority.
PCs definitely do not bribe enough, and often it makes their lives much harder.
Consider this scenario: you get arrested by PC militia for a petty crime like theft or illegal weapons sales, or for having contraband. As long as the templars aren't actively hunting you, they probably don't care if you're brought before them or not. The soldier is going to do his job unless you give him a reason not to, though. If you offer a small bribe (100-300 sid, depending on the crime), you might get off free before a templar even knows you exist.
Not having templars know you exist is a good thing. It's a very significant power that soldiers have. They can catch you doing something even MILDLY illegal and extort a bribe over it by threatening to tell a templar if you don't pay up. That tactic works even if you're somebody like a noble's aide, because what aide wants their noble knowing about their moonlighting as a burglar? What noble wants their aide known as a thief? The trick for soldiers is catching the people who can be extorted into giving a bribe, and then impressing upon them that they should.
Lets say you do get brought before the templar. I'll let you in on a secret: executions take time and effort, and depending on how busy the templar is or how lazy he is that day, he may not be overly excited for MOOORE BLOOOOD. (If he is, sorry, you picked the wrong templar. Welcome to Armageddon.)
In this case, you're bribing a templar, so you better offer a bit more, but in most cases, the templar will happily take your money and leave you alive so you can get caught again and bribe him again.
On the other hand, insisting to the templar/soldier you're innocent, or giving him attitude, or taking the "Well I'm gonna die anyway so FUCK YOU" attitude are all great ways to die even when a relatively small bribe would have got you off. People need to better understand the 'game' between the law and criminals. It's not really about justice or who is 'right', it's more about acknowledging the law has the power and should be rewarded for it.
Quote from: Southie on May 15, 2008, 04:14:05 PM
PCs definitely do not bribe enough, and often it makes their lives much harder.
Consider this scenario: you get arrested by PC militia for a petty crime like theft or illegal weapons sales, or for having contraband. As long as the templars aren't actively hunting you, they probably don't care if you're brought before them or not. The soldier is going to do his job unless you give him a reason not to, though. If you offer a small bribe (100-300 sid, depending on the crime), you might get off free before a templar even knows you exist.
Not having templars know you exist is a good thing. It's a very significant power that soldiers have. They can catch you doing something even MILDLY illegal and extort a bribe over it by threatening to tell a templar if you don't pay up. That tactic works even if you're somebody like a noble's aide, because what aide wants their noble knowing about their moonlighting as a burglar? What noble wants their aide known as a thief? The trick for soldiers is catching the people who can be extorted into giving a bribe, and then impressing upon them that they should.
I'm sorry, but the ability to circumvent the law you are mentioning here is rather flimsy. It's only the sort of thing that would happen very rarely, as many of the events you speak of are covered by the criminal code. Now, if the enforcers were given the ability to process criminals and carry out punishments within a certain range, then we might have something, but for now, they're just muscle. The templar and lackey formation just isn't very flexible.
Quote from: Southie on May 15, 2008, 04:14:05 PM
On the other hand, insisting to the templar/soldier you're innocent, or giving him attitude, or taking the "Well I'm gonna die anyway so FUCK YOU" attitude are all great ways to die even when a relatively small bribe would have got you off. People need to better understand the 'game' between the law and criminals. It's not really about justice or who is 'right', it's more about acknowledging the law has the power and should be rewarded for it.
Now this part I can't stress enough. Having played a law enforcement character before, I've killed people who insisted on not cooperating. Remember folks, you have no rights. Your relationship with the the law is equivalent with your relationship to the law enforcement officer standing in front of you. Let them know they're in control, and trust me, they are, and they will be fairly lenient with you.
Quote from: Dalmeth on May 15, 2008, 03:53:12 PM
I'd suggest a more disorganized system whereby those admitted to a law enforcement agency are expected to act professionally from the start. Not only are they expected to enforce the law, but keep the peace. This doesn't always mean following the law to the letter, because the world at large is much less under control. You simply don't have enough people to send the law into every dark corner. A law enforcement officer squeezes one direction, some criminal runs another, maybe kills a few people in the process or tries to overthrow your authority. So long as they're paying you to keep off their backs, you at least have some dialog with them, and with that, you have some control. It's time to stop thinking of bribery as corruption and more of a method of control, as getting the people who aren't going to go by the letter of the law working with you. Unfortunately, most law enforcement types simply don't have the authority to establish that sort of relationship.
I'm kind of eager to see how the Watchers of Basal will turn out. Depending on how they're controlled and organized, they may turn out to be tons more fun. Just imagine getting a bribe that lets you get into a slightly higher, much larger home on the level you're currently on, or maybe you get some money that lets a deal go down that makes you a much richer man for letting a smuggler get a few items in. I think it's going to be a lot more fun when the law enforcement officials are given the power to be political players in their own authority.
I'm gonna give this a big "hell yeah."
I'd love if law enforcement was less of a rank-and-file military organization, where they are all organized and working together all the time, into a less centralized system. Obviously there has to be some center, but if each arm of the beast has some autonomy, keeping the peace becomes more important than enforcing the law. I love the idea that accepting bribes lets you keep the briber under some sort of control. Corruption isn't always "evil" or "selfish"--sometimes, it really is the best way to go about things.
This is only really true with the
big sort of criminals. Some person or some organization that is truly dangerous would be foolish to simply run down when subtler means can be used, causing much less noise to likely greater effect. Your average pickpocket probably wouldn't be worth worrying about (and thus could simply "circumvent" the law through bribery), but something equivalent to, say, The Guild would be most effectively controlled this way.
To give a specific number, I'd say that 1000 'sid is more money than most commoners would ever see in one place. I've always had all of my characters react to 1000 'sids or more as a -lot- of friggin' money. 1000 'sid = $100,000 American, perhaps? I think it's a fair comparison. Many people earn 100,000 bucks over the course of their lifetime, but very few see that amount lining their briefcase. If you make deals in 'large' rather than 'small', the average grebber will probably see you as very wealthy.
I would say the general rule-of-thumb for new players is that in the major cities, and the mercantile outposts, the socially acceptable way to bribe your way out of most arrests is to apologize for wasting Authority Figure Jim's time and offer to compensate him for it.
Of course, many commoners, having never got in trouble, will be pretty awkward with their first bribes. And this is perfectly cool.
I send kudos for bribes. You want kudos? BRIBE MORE.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on May 15, 2008, 06:00:15 PM
I send kudos for bribes. You want kudos? BRIBE MORE.
I never got any kudos for bribing you.
:'(
Quote from: Gimfalisette on May 15, 2008, 06:00:15 PM
I send kudos for bribes. You want kudos? BRIBE MORE.
Wait... bribe you with real money for Kudos, or bribe guards in game for Kudos?? ;D
Quote from: jcljules on May 15, 2008, 07:00:23 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on May 15, 2008, 06:00:15 PM
I send kudos for bribes. You want kudos? BRIBE MORE.
Wait... bribe you with real money for Kudos, or bribe guards in game for Kudos?? ;D
Exactly!
Actually what I meant was that doing bribery is good game play. I really have sent kudos to people in the past for things like playing a great torture victim, or playing the corruption side of things, and whatnot. It just always impresses me when I see that, rather than seeing the much more frequent, "I may be a thieving elf, but screw you, Mr. Templar!" attitude.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on May 15, 2008, 07:04:32 PM
Quote from: jcljules on May 15, 2008, 07:00:23 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on May 15, 2008, 06:00:15 PM
I send kudos for bribes. You want kudos? BRIBE MORE.
Wait... bribe you with real money for Kudos, or bribe guards in game for Kudos?? ;D
Exactly!
Actually what I meant was that doing bribery is good game play. I really have sent kudos to people in the past for things like playing a great torture victim, or playing the corruption side of things, and whatnot. It just always impresses me when I see that, rather than seeing the much more frequent, "I may be a thieving elf, but screw you, Mr. Templar!" attitude.
Y'know, this is a whole 'nother discussion for a whole 'nother thread, and I think I'll go ahead and make that thread, because it's a discussion I'd love to have.
Quote from: manonfire on May 13, 2008, 06:31:10 PM
Being rich is the ability to drink one's milkshake, or a milkshake of another, using a straw that reaches acrooooooss the room.
I just caught the
There Will be Blood reference
I do admit that some of my characters will not be willing to pay a bribe for something they didnt do, on matter of principal. Though for the most part, if I was innocent, I would bring that up, then I would probably offer to compensate the soldier or templar for spending some of their time just to confirm that I am in fact innocent. Most of my characters dont really do illegal things, so normal bribes to keep stuff hidden wouldnt be IC for them. But I do agree that offering a bandit a few sid for his protection is wiser then the screw your, or run away instantly attitude lots of people have, and more fun besides.
Read through most of the thread and it didnt look like anyone mentioned it.
My PCs have always equated wealth to more money than they could carry at one time.
They'd rationalize it as... if I can't carry all my money with me, I've made it... I have more money than I can literally bring with me, and am forced to use a bank, a stationary anchor in life, that then allows me to make more money, and continue to become wealthier.
Of course commoner rich and noble rich is different.
One PC could never hope to obtain the wealth of a noble house of 100s doing virtual business day and night with 100s more.
You're rich when you no longer wonder if you're rich. If you think about money, you're not rich. If you see a huge, intricately carved wooden bed with a silk canopy, and say to yourself, "I need to find a place that sells those." instead of, "Krath! I bet that costs a fortune." Then you're rich.
I think there is a difference between being wealthy and rich. If you're rich, you can buy food, water, clothing and housing without feeling too much of a pinch. You probably already have income of some sort which helps keep you afloat. Even a small time hunter, burglar or mercenary could eventually become rich if they made the right choices in the long run.
Being wealthy... now that is beyond rich. You don't even think about money as an object you have to climb over to get what you want. Money probably has always been in your family since ages previous and you've been born into it. The wealthy of Zalanthas are the ones to fear. Money = power...