Quote from: KrathIf I have a PC and decide to rp lifting weights, doing endurance training, or speed drills,
1.How many times can I send in logs to get raises
2. Can I get raises every year for a stat if I have sufficient logs
3. Can I get Multiple stats IE AGI, STR, and END get raises at the same time if you supply sufficient logs for the work?
4. How High can you get a stat raised to if you were to start out with Poor before the staff decides the pc at hand can not get faster, stronger, or more long winded no matter how much they train?
Taken from the
Ask the Staff forum, I was thinking about this briefly.
In general, there have been changes to the stat system in an effort to try and appease players' needs to have more control over their stat distribution. Rerolls and stat ordering were two such additions over the last many years, but the subject of improving one's stats through RP and Logs seems to come up every now and again, and I always envision both sides wincing a little bit as they ask and answer.
The underlying question is, "If we aren't happy with our stats, is there any good way we can fix it?"
Players hesitate to ask because they don't want to be called a twink, powergamer, or other such label that accuses them of paying too much attention to the coded statistics of the game and not enough on the roles themselves.
Imms hesitate to commit to any definitive answer because they don't want to be buried beneath an avalanche of player submitted logs and requests for stat changes due to some blanket statement that attributes metrics to stat increases and creates a false expectation on the part of the players that "X" logs = "Y" stat improvement.
So, what more could be done to empower the players without burdening the Imms?
While it may not be a perfect solution, I wondered what people thought about each character starting with (1) attribute point to distribute how they wish after they've completed their reroll. Every 6 RL months, the character would gain another (1) attribute point to a maximum of (3) on any one given character. You could consider it a growth spurt in the case of a 13 year old becoming an adult, the result of a strict training regimen, the experience gleaned from years involved in one's given profession, or whatever RP reason you so choose that you would've gathered together and submitted logs for in another system.
It would seem that this would provide characters a smidgen of further control without being too overpowered or having as much chance for abuse. People that just wanted a little better strength, wisdom, agility, or endurance on their new character would always have that (1) extra point, while characters that survive for long periods of time would have a chance to gradually grow their character however it made sense for them. And with a cap of (3) points, I don't think you'd see anyone grossly overbalance themselves in comparison to new characters that only have access to (1).
I'd see this as a nice way to completely remove the need for log submissions and character requests for stat conversions, pointing at the system as the best solution for your character seeing coded changes come about as a result of their RP and IC work. You can use the stat point right away, or save them and apply them at a later date once you've decided what direction your character might move.
The power flows into your hands instead of going down a path where an Imm must play judge to a PC which eventually results in approval or rejection. IMO -- the "RP Logs" system is doomed to create "bad feelings" and cries of favoritism between players and Imms. Why not eliminate that entire line of thinking and simply provide players with a small measure of control and disallow any further Imm-involved stat changes?
I'd be interested to hear whether the PC's that often find themselves disgruntled with the stat system or frequently asking Imms for stat improvements think of this type of solution? Would it meet your needs? Give you enough control over your character to be happy and avoid sending in RP logs?
-LoD
I would love to see something of this kind. The stat that concerns me the most is wisdom. Because I see far less viable options for visibly training this in a way that can be docmented.
Anyway, while I'm not sure about plausible ideas I would like to see something possible. I think long lived characters should be rewarded with developments that would be natural - with the exception of the elderly who should become weaker. It is frustrating not being able to better yourself in this way. Gah. I know it frustrates me everyday.
Yes.
I think something like this would work best if you not only had to raise one attribute, but also lower another.
From all that sparring that boosts your strength a point, you knock your head around and lose a point of wisdom.
I think, due to how stats are given based on age, maybe it could be more stats given one at a time, for a character that starts younger. After all, most of your physical 'attributes' you gain in life come after puberty and probably up until you are 24 or so. After that it will change, but not dramatically. So maybe just say, you roll a 30 year old, your getting one point before old age decays your stats.
You roll a 16 year old, you'll get several up until you reach 24 or so and then one every so often. Makes more sense to me.
On a side note, I know for a fact you can dramatically change your 'stats' if they aren't that great in real life. I was a skinny dorky weakling nerd. Then I joined the Marine Corps. Now I got a six pack (well had, it's not as defined anymore but I'm quite a bit older now) and am well toned and muscled still. However, you would reach a point where it gets harder and harder to improve...somewhere around average I suppose it would slow down.
Currently, there is some 'chance' of increase of stats as you age. Your character's birthday is the time when stats increase. At least, that's what we've been told.
If you make characters that start "older" than 18, you usually have a better chance at getting better stats.
I wish there was a more dynamic way to change your stats. LoD's suggestion is very good, because it gives the users a chance to pick and choose which stats they want to increase, -rather- than have the game do it automatically - based on your guild or whatnot.
This gives -everybody- a chance to increase their skills, despite any proof or role-play involved. The only thing that gives you this is time played on your character. I like it. A lot.
Personally, I'd give 1 point at 3 months since the start of the character, 1 point at 9 months since the start of the character, and 1 point at 15 months since the start of the character.
I think a point at 3 months into the character will help -everybody-, and then the second point will help the characters that manage to live 9 months, which is -very hard to do-.
I do wish it would move alongside the age related stat changes, too. These stat points are based on whatever change we the players view has happened since we started the character.
Quote from: cisalus on April 14, 2008, 02:56:20 PM
I think something like this would work best if you not only had to raise one attribute, but also lower another.
From all that sparring that boosts your strength a point, you knock your head around and lose a point of wisdom.
This is something I'd definitely disagree on--I don't think a system where you have to take arbitrary hits to stats/skills in order to raise others makes sense, nor do I think it's conducive to roleplay.
Not to mention, aside from SEVERE injuries, I really can't think of any reason why a fresh-faced teenage runner who joins the Byn half-starved, then survives for years to trooperhood eating better and training constantly would get physically or mentally weaker.
I prefer a system where "development in one area just means you don't develop as much in others" is the rule, rather than "development in one area means you must arbitrarily suffer in others."
Quote from: cisalus on April 14, 2008, 02:56:20 PM
I think something like this would work best if you not only had to raise one attribute, but also lower another.
From all that sparring that boosts your strength a point, you knock your head around and lose a point of wisdom.
No.
Quote from: Fathi on April 14, 2008, 03:08:53 PM
I prefer a system where "development in one area just means you don't develop as much in others" is the rule, rather than "development in one area means you must arbitrarily suffer in others."
The character isn't 'suffering arbitrarily.' The decrease in another stat is to represent lack of focus in that area, much like the way many people support a skill system where your ability 'erodes' without use.
Of course, your choice to raise a stat and subsequently lower another would be your choice.
Edit- my previous sparring example was watered down to raise the 'do you get it?' value.
Quote from: cisalus on April 14, 2008, 03:34:32 PM
Quote from: Fathi on April 14, 2008, 03:08:53 PM
I prefer a system where "development in one area just means you don't develop as much in others" is the rule, rather than "development in one area means you must arbitrarily suffer in others."
The character isn't 'suffering arbitrarily.' The decrease in another stat is to represent lack of focus in that area, much like the way many people support a skill system where your ability 'erodes' without use.
Of course, your choice to raise a stat and subsequently lower another would be your choice.
Edit- my previous sparring example was watered down to raise the 'do you get it?' value.
I don't think people should lose stats because:
A) People are playing a game that they want to play, with characters with stats that may not represent what the character concept is. These extra stat points help make the players choose CODEDly how they want to be represented with their character concept.
B) Some people get bad rolls, and may end up with below average, below average, good, below average. Do you say that you suffer in agility to increase in wisdom? How do you play that out? Some justifications as to why you're now less intelligent or less endurance do not make sense.
C) When people submit logs, do the immortals usually switch stats, or drop one and increase another? Or do they just add one? What has been done in the past, for examples? The point of this is to allow characters to modify their characters without immortal intervention.
Quote from: mansa on April 14, 2008, 03:42:28 PM
I don't think people should lose stats because:
I guess this thread isn't exactly my place to comment, because I've never applied for a stat change. Bad stats never changed my ability to play.
I don't believe we're seeking balance or realism with this idea, but rather the opportunity for players to obtain a meager sense of control over their character's development.
They are very different goals. Since player stats are randomized, the system is already unbalanced when you directly compare one PC to another, so there's little reason to fight for balance here (i.e. increasing strength by 1, decreasing wisdom by 1). We also aren't attempting to make the system realistic, because these changes, especially physical changes, are certainly possible in the real world by introducing a fair amount of education, training, and hard work.
No, this idea is not aimed at balance or realism, but at making the system the tiniest bit dynamic, and to do so in a way that leaves the player happier with both their current stats and with the potential of their character down the road. These concessions are meant to give players a sense of control over the development of their character rather than be at the whim of complete randomization or a chance encounter with a favorable Immortal.
I'd prefer to remove that human factor and introduce a method by which all players can have a direct hand in their character's development. Not a world shaking change. Not a game breaking shift. Just a single point every several RL months to give players a positive role in developing their character and perhaps overcoming some of their OOC objections surrounding their character concept and/or character progression.
And, in response, I would hope that players cease making requests for stat improvements based on RP logs and simply allocate these few extra points in the areas that make the most sense for their character.
-LoD
I really like this idea, especially with Mansa's revision of the timing, but I'd also like to be able to use these points to decrease my stat values, if I so choose.
Quote from: Tisiphone on April 14, 2008, 04:01:33 PM
I really like this idea, especially with Mansa's revision of the timing, but I'd also like to be able to use these points to decrease my stat values, if I so choose.
I like the option to decrease stats, if I were to choose, as well. Or to do nothing. It's solely up to the player.
Over all I like LoD's suggestion and don't see any real problem with it.
As to using the points to lower stats...I suppose. But lowering stats is not the same as raising stats. Currently I don't think any of the staff has any problem lowering a stat if you request it. Specialy when your PC is just out of the box.
Quote from: X-D on April 14, 2008, 11:17:07 PM
Over all I like LoD's suggestion and don't see any real problem with it.
As to using the points to lower stats...I suppose. But lowering stats is not the same as raising stats. Currently I don't think any of the staff has any problem lowering a stat if you request it. Specialy when your PC is just out of the box.
Ahh, but it still requires immortal intervention to do so.
I typically like this idea for the flexibility it gives a player to adjust a character when they settle into a role their stats may not be adequate for.
I would also like to suggest another facet to the discussion : what if you could use these points to boost a skill as well? Should it be only skills you currently have on you skills list, or could it involve more than that? Could it be all skills or just a limited selection of skills that exclude some of the more class-specific items? What if your selection broadens with each point? Maybe, at the final point awarded, you could opt to pick something up that is completely unrelated to your class, maybe even something more often associated with other classes?
Quote from: Dalmeth on April 15, 2008, 03:02:15 AM
I typically like this idea for the flexibility it gives a player to adjust a character when they settle into a role their stats may not be adequate for.
I would also like to suggest another facet to the discussion : what if you could use these points to boost a skill as well? Should it be only skills you currently have on you skills list, or could it involve more than that? Could it be all skills or just a limited selection of skills that exclude some of the more class-specific items? What if your selection broadens with each point? Maybe, at the final point awarded, you could opt to pick something up that is completely unrelated to your class, maybe even something more often associated with other classes?
That would be -really- nice. So over the course of a 15 month characters life they would have three points to spend. This could be spent on stat raises (point for a point) or skill additions (point for 1 skill). Not only do I find myself yearning for a single stat increase right now, I also wish I could get an extra skill or two away from my tree, because in all honesty after playing a character for so long, I'm really freaking bored of my skilltree. I should so be able to learn something else, realistically, but the code doesn't allow for it. Please introduce this now. And please give old characters back pay. Ta.
One more thing - rather than having the stat-point accumulation be based on RL time since character creation, how about days played? It can be tweaked so that someone who plays a little less or a little more than the average player (about 15 hours a week? I dunno) would accumulate points in roughly the same amount of time as the other system.
It perhaps 'punishes' people who play their characters less, but also doesn't allow for apping a character right before going on a long vacation in order to have your points when you come back. I'd also throw in some chicanery about it being more 'realisitically' tied to the character, but that's probably just that, chicanery.
Quote from: Tisiphone on April 15, 2008, 09:19:20 AM
One more thing - rather than having the stat-point accumulation be based on RL time since character creation, how about days played? It can be tweaked so that someone who plays a little less or a little more than the average player (about 15 hours a week? I dunno) would accumulate points in roughly the same amount of time as the other system.
It perhaps 'punishes' people who play their characters less, but also doesn't allow for apping a character right before going on a long vacation in order to have your points when you come back. I'd also throw in some chicanery about it being more 'realisitically' tied to the character, but that's probably just that, chicanery.
There should probably be a way of balancing between actual time and hours played. I wouldn't want to see players who cannot lay very often for RL reasons, and maybe only manage an hour or two a week, be punished for this, while the example you gave of someone app'ing and then going on holiday (or not playing for a while) and leaving their character to 'grow' is something I would not like to see. Perhaps if someone doesn't log in for a month the timer stops until they return?
So far I've hated most stat-adjusting/improving systems. I was strongly against stat ordering (I'll freely admit it hasn't been the doom and gloom I predicted). This idea seems more than reasonable, though.
The only problem I see, however, is that it removes the incentive to RP training to earn this stat increase.
Quote from: Tisiphone on April 15, 2008, 09:19:20 AM
One more thing - rather than having the stat-point accumulation be based on RL time since character creation, how about days played? It can be tweaked so that someone who plays a little less or a little more than the average player (about 15 hours a week? I dunno) would accumulate points in roughly the same amount of time as the other system.
It perhaps 'punishes' people who play their characters less, but also doesn't allow for apping a character right before going on a long vacation in order to have your points when you come back. I'd also throw in some chicanery about it being more 'realisitically' tied to the character, but that's probably just that, chicanery.
Perhaps it should be like 6 months RL time
and at least 3 days played during that period.
Quote from: LoD on April 14, 2008, 03:52:23 PM
I don't believe we're seeking balance or realism with this idea
I like balance and realism. I don't like this idea, especially in the case of newbies who have a hard enough time getting settled among us old timers, and for those who still struggle to keep a character alive, this puts them further at a disadvantage. I was intrigued by the idea of having one point to distribute after creation, but I think stat ordering mostly covers this.
While the current situation is muddled, I like it. You train a lot and it's for the staff to decide. I like it that they can keep an eye on things.
I don't think this would hurt much if it went in. Having a few points for SMALL stat/skill boosts lets players further customize their PCs starting off, which adds for more variety and would help to decrease that feeling of newbie suckiness.
Quote from: path on April 15, 2008, 12:38:00 PM
I don't like this idea, especially in the case of newbies who have a hard enough time getting settled among us old timers, and for those who still struggle to keep a character alive, this puts them further at a disadvantage.
This point doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me, for a few reasons.
One. Everyone would have the same number of "extra" points until a character reached 6 months or so. There wouldn't even be an advantage until that time.
Two. In the event that a 6 month old character engaged a 1 month old character, the skill differential between the two should vastly eclipse any possible advantage (1) point of strength, agility, wisdom, or endurance could possibly grant them. It's kind of like saying that allowing Michael Jordan to wear a certain type of shoe puts high school basketball players at a disadvantage, when the truth is that the shoe is inconsequential and MJ could likely beat them barefoot if he wanted.
Three. The 1 month old character may very well have
better attributes than the veteran. They may have an extremely good, very good, good, exceptional roll while the 6 month old character has good, good, above average, very good. Is allocating that extra attribute point really so advantageous?
Perhaps you could provide a scenario where a 7 month character having 1 extra stat point would overshadow or unbalance the relationship with a 1 month character any more than it already does?
Quote from: path on April 15, 2008, 12:38:00 PM
I was intrigued by the idea of having one point to distribute after creation, but I think stat ordering mostly covers this.
Stat ordering helps ensure that your character
begins with the best possible chance at having their highest
random stat be in the attribute they desire. However, if we take group A (11, 10, 9, 12) and Group B (18, 15, 11, 13) we swiftly see that stat ordering merely awards Player A with a 12 strength and Player B with an 18 strength. The system doesn't account for any growth or further development of the character, which is why people send in RP logs of them lifting weights and running laps.
I also like the suggested idea of using the points to affect a larger group of potential things:
- Add 10% to the base value and 5% to the maximum value of a particular skill.
- Add 1 point to strength, agility, wisdom, or endurance.
- Add 1 dialect of choice.
- Add 1 language of choice (2 points)
- Add 1 skill from a general skill pool.
- Add 5 health, 10 stamina, or 10 stun.
It's more about customization options for your character throughout their development than a means to gain advantages over newbies. And comparing Imms reviewing logs to Imms watching over people isn't exactly the same thing. Imms already pro-actively watch players without needing to encourage a system where players have to constantly wish up and email in rationalizations concerning why they should have Skill X, Dialect Y, or Attribute Z.
This is a system that affords every player the same opportunity, regardless of time played, clan affiliation, playing times, character exposure, and several other factors that people have often complained about concerning why they haven't been able to receive as much attention as others.
-LoD
Quote from: Tisiphone on April 15, 2008, 09:19:20 AM
One more thing - rather than having the stat-point accumulation be based on RL time since character creation, how about days played? It can be tweaked so that someone who plays a little less or a little more than the average player (about 15 hours a week? I dunno) would accumulate points in roughly the same amount of time as the other system.
It perhaps 'punishes' people who play their characters less, but also doesn't allow for apping a character right before going on a long vacation in order to have your points when you come back. I'd also throw in some chicanery about it being more 'realisitically' tied to the character, but that's probably just that, chicanery.
I would say it definitely punishes players who cannot play the game more than an hour a day. I think asking the players to play -MORE- at once rather than playing -LONGER- with the character will force people to do strange stuff.. like finding bugs to increase their playing time on their character. Perhaps they will automate their character while going AFK.
Having a strict - Since the day you started - policy for this would make it impossible to adjust.
If someone goes on vacation - well, they aren't really PLAYING the game, are they? They aren't enjoying it, or producing anything. And they aren't getting any chance to increase their skills, so I believe that point is minor.
Quote from: path on April 15, 2008, 12:38:00 PM
Quote from: LoD on April 14, 2008, 03:52:23 PM
I don't believe we're seeking balance or realism with this idea
I like balance and realism. I don't like this idea, especially in the case of newbies who have a hard enough time getting settled among us old timers, and for those who still struggle to keep a character alive, this puts them further at a disadvantage. I was intrigued by the idea of having one point to distribute after creation, but I think stat ordering mostly covers this.
While the current situation is muddled, I like it. You train a lot and it's for the staff to decide. I like it that they can keep an eye on things.
I would rather have an impersonal machine give everybody the same level of character development, than having my character's skills increase depend on how eloquent I can be in my email to a sympathetic immortal. I'm sure if something -dramatic- happens to your character you can petition an immortal to change it more than what this futuristic system offers...
But if this system was put into place, I believe there will be a dramatic cut in the amount of emails that immortals go through regarding Stat Changes.
I definitely would rather see a less-staff involved system in regards to stat raises.
It can sometimes be frustrating to be honest, to have to rp specific training. I know with my current character it seems almost more OOC to sit and lift weights to increase his strength, when the way he leads his life is far more impacting on his physical fitness.
I would say giving out the extra points based on Hours Played would be far more effective than basing it on time since creation.
Also, I would say -don't- put a limit on it, but have the the amount of time between points given increase exponentially.
Quote from: LoD on April 15, 2008, 01:07:15 PM
I also like the suggested idea of using the points to affect a larger group of potential things:
- Add 10% to the base value and 5% to the maximum value of a particular skill.
- Add 1 point to strength, agility, wisdom, or endurance.
- Add 1 dialect of choice.
- Add 1 language of choice (2 points)
- Add 1 skill from a general skill pool.
- Add 5 health, 10 stamina, or 10 stun.
While I really like this idea, I think some, if not all, would still be up for staff approval (goes into a queue to be reviewed by the staff and either approved or denied-with-reason). This would still put the decision in staff hands, but automate the process quite a bit more. This would also prevent things like a rinth-rat auto-learning Tatlum.
Quote from: DrunkenSalarr on April 15, 2008, 01:50:00 PM
This would also prevent things like a rinth-rat auto-learning Tatlum.
I take the point of your post and agree with it, but I think that this particular situation, and other outlandish ones, should be impossible simply because some skills don't make it into the common pool that can be picked up this way. Examples might include languages other than sirihish, allundean, and mirukkim (or, frankly, all languages - those can be picked up IC already without staff intervention) very specific guild skills, spells, psionics, etc.
Meh, I'm not so sure I'd like the idea of adding brand new skills based off of time alone. If these 'points' could be expended on skills, I'd much rather have them only able to be applied to skills your character is already good at, giving no immediate bump but increasing their 'maximum' for that skill. True weaponmasters emerge.
If we do the general skill pool, I just can't help but imagine the same skills will be chosen by everyone regardless, and it will just turn into 'Oh, everyone has this skill though.'
Another problem with basing it off of 'time played' is then some people might be very tempted to go linkdead in fairly safe places when they couldn't play - or not even linkdead, just idle or run some simple script for hours while they slept, worked, or went to class, to tick up the timer faster.
I like the idea of dynamic stat and skill change potentials. I'd like to see it based off of how your character lives, how it's spending its time. Things that might affect your character's 'well being' and stats for good or ill might be how varied its diet is over time, what drugs and possibly poisons its encountering over time, how hard it works and how long it stays injured or very tired.
Maybe food, intoxicants, even getting to a certain state of tired or hurt and staying there for an amount of time can place a subtle affect on you. And the game watches these effects. An alcoholic that eats almost only bread and works himself regularly to exhaustion, then -doesn't- rest for a while, might find all sorts of slow, negative, cumulative effects on his stats.
Eat a variety of meat, vegtables, fruit, and bread, work hard in their life but not to hard, then rest and recover soon after, avoid much of what tears up a body... and slowly improve in their stats as they maintain a sensible, healthy life.
I totally idle all the time now anyway, while I'm working etc and just wait for interesting stuff to happen. I think I'd start feeling guilty about idling if Stat Increases were based on hours played. And I think people who couldn't idle 24 hours a day (I would do that for +1 wis, seriously) would be pretty upset.
Hours played is not the way to go. People who can play for more hours a day already have an unfair advantage, they get to play more!
Why hasn't this system been implemented yet?! We've been talking about it for like a whole 2-3 days now! ::)