Armageddon General Discussion Board

Please keep it about elves ability to run. Thanks

Inspired by comments in - http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,29160.0.html (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,29160.0.html)

Quote from: Throttle on January 03, 2008, 09:18:14 PM
I've always found city elves to be one of the "worst" races in the game, for many reasons.

- Code-wise they're about as poor as it gets. Their lack of strength and  endurance makes them terrible compared to any other playable race.  Add to that the fact that they can't ride, which rules out much out-of-city activity, and that very few clans will accept them. They get screwed over badly by the terrible stat system.

Quote from: Malken on January 03, 2008, 09:42:02 PM
Give them the bonuses of the desert elves and I guarantee you you'll start seeing elves in the game again.

At the very LEAST they should be able to run from one city to another.

When nobody wants to play the race, it's time to take a look at it and try to improve it some.

If you don't want the city elves to have the stamina of the desert elves, THEN at least get rid of this insane pride that they have toward (not) being able to go from one place to another with their legs, so they don't need a mount. (Hah!)

Desert elves: Proud, athletic, desert dwellers. They can run for miles, don't need mounts.
City elves: Tricksters, thieves, scums, that's where their pride comes from, they have absolutely no problem with riding mounts.

That's how it should be, in my opinion.

NO! I don't want City Elves out in the wastes running around like a Desert elf would!.
& No! I wouldn't want to see elves on any mount!

Quote from: Cerelum on January 04, 2008, 10:14:57 AM
Can city elves run between cities like a desert elf can?  If not.  No way in hell would I want to play one, cause elves sorta blow in other aspects, as says the help file.

Quote from: helpfiles - Race elvesNotes:
    Elves are not strong -- in comparison to most of the other humanoid
    races of Zalanthas, they are quite weak. They possess other abilities
    to compensate. If you are not happy running a character that is
    physically weak, you are advised not to choose this race.

Quote from: Malken on January 04, 2008, 10:16:54 AM
I don't even think they could run -halfway- between the cities.

I don't wanna say but anyone who's played a Traveller & a City elf would know.

Quote from: Maybe42or54 on January 04, 2008, 10:49:56 AM
City elves, like D-elves, are territorial. Leaving their city is like a d-elf leaving the grasslands. It shouldn't happen a lot.
City elves, like D-elves, are prideful. Riding a mount like a roundy little bitch because their legs are too weak to carry them? Absurd.

Agreed & Agreed!
Though to note,  I would like to see a change in how far they can run in the City & make them at least able to run further than any human in the desert.

Quote from: Cerelum on January 04, 2008, 11:24:33 AM

Quote from: Throttle on January 04, 2008, 11:19:30 AM

QuoteCity elves, like D-elves, are prideful. Riding a mount like a roundy little bitch because their legs are too weak to carry them? Absurd.

But it makes no sense. Why would city elves take pride in an ability that they don't have? Who are they kidding?

This has often been my bitch too.  D-elves get like massively better stats then C-elves and can run like 500 miles without resting.

C-elves just get nothing and are big pansies.

Quote from: Malken on January 04, 2008, 11:39:16 AM
That never made sense to me either. What are they proud of? That they are the reason why the entire Byn unit has to stop and wait for them to catch their breath every few minutes or so? Are they proud that they can't be traders by themselves and have to rely on stinkin' roundears to take them from one trading route to another?

The desert elf pride comes from the fact that they have powerful legs that can take them anywhere in the known world, and that is why they don't need no mounts, the city elves, they have their own pride, but in no way should it be related to the fact that they have strong legs as well. They just don't, code-wise. If they do ICly, then at least make it so code-wise, no?

We KNOW what city elves are capable of and what they're all about, but I still don't think that it has anything to do with the distances their legs can take them. Clever? Yup. Tricksters? You bet. Con-Artists extraordinaire? No one's arguing.. But able to run long distances? Pfft, c'mon.

Refusing to ride a mount when you can't run that far without getting exhausted is not pride, it's the whole race just being plainly retarded about it. Some elvish wiseman needs to stand up and speak the truth, unfortunately, the first elf who does so will have his race option taken away.

Quote from: Cerelum on January 04, 2008, 12:25:44 PM
I think they should be able to run like Desert Elves, or just allow them to ride mounts and erase that crap from their history about not wanting to ride.

J-Rod

Quote from: Mr.B on January 04, 2008, 01:22:09 PM
When my played my 100+ day desert strolling elf, I was faced with the problems mentioned in this thread. Don't believe city-elves just plain suck when it comes to combat since my stats were not astronomical with that character, but I still became one of the most powerful combat creatures on the mud. Unfortunately, the desert always kicked my ass (this was after the elf-wide stamina nerf) and I repeatedly mailed the imms about the fact that regular elves, though supposed to be runners - had less stamina then the equivalent human and suffered equally as much as a human would in the desert while running. I thought it was pretty damn stupid that a race known for their awesome, and no less then -awesome- running prowess couldn't beat feet in the desert for more then a minute or two without collapsing from utter exhaustion. I had suggested giving regular elves the ability to run in the desert just like desert elves. Elves would have still suffered from pitifully low stamina totals, would still need to rest more often then desert elves, and would also need to consume more water then their more rugged cousins, the desert elf. I thought it would make elves more playable and less completely restricted to city life. This idea was pretty brutally shot down later and I didn't press the issue. Does anyone here think that my proposal was outrageous?

Quote from: Fathi on January 04, 2008, 06:55:33 PM

Quote from: Maybe42or54 on January 04, 2008, 02:08:49 PM
Mr. B, your idea would make me play more city elves. However, I don't think City elves should be leaving the city as much as they do.

Keep in mind "leaving the city" doesn't always mean going out to the desert with the intent of running around the desert itself.

I think it would be perfectly reasonable for a city elf trader or assassin to want to go from Tuluk to Allanak or Luir's for supplies/orders or for a contract.

I've rarely seen city elves leaving the gates, but agree thats the way it should be.

Quote from: Dusky on January 04, 2008, 02:32:02 PM
I recall quite clearly a certain Kuraci city-elf who lived as though he were a desert elf (actually became extremely bad-ass) and it was a marvel of role-play that he took that non-riding disadvantage upon himself.

Quote from: helpfiles - Race elvesThe differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result of their differing lifestyles--there is only one elven race.

Quote from: Malken on January 04, 2008, 02:43:09 PM
Exactly, if there's only one elven race, then make it so code-wise, otherwise, change the docs, because it's false. VERY false.

What? The doc clearly states they're different, just means they're still one race.

Quote from: Maybe42or54 on January 04, 2008, 02:50:05 PM
I definately agree with Mr. B. All elves should have a natural ability to run a long distance.

I wish it was like this:
Theoretically.
If an D-elf has 207 stamina and loses 3 per room while running in the desert. Able to run 69 rooms.
If a human has 102 Stamina and loses 8 per room, while running in the desert. Able to run 13 room.
Then a C-elf should have 160 stamina and should lose 4-5 stamina while running in the desert. They should be able to run 32-40 rooms.

That would make me happy. In doing so, the D-elf would still be the king of the wastes, and roundies will still have to ride a mount, but a C-elf would still be able to take pride in the run.

Quote from: Troicha on January 04, 2008, 06:05:38 PM
Check city-running stamina vs. rounders. That's all I'm saying.

To be honest, I think city elves should have some 'other' type of a  bonus that works ONLY in the city. Perhaps a natural stealth bonus, or maybe a natural bonus to weapon skills in areas marked as crowded and so on.

City elf racial skill is greatly underappreciated, in my opinion.

City elves are the fastest race in the game, as long as running in the city.

The races are not a matter of being 'balanced', it's a matter of being able to fulfill their role correctly.

City elves happen to be some of the coolest roleplay in the game, in my opinion, once you're actually entrenched in the mentality.

I dont know. Personally I believe in a 'quasi' balance of the game. It doesnt have to be 'coded' balance, but it has to be a matter of 'offsets'. Magickers are crazy powerful code wise, aswell as have some membership options unavailable to others. But they're severely shunned socially. Muls are crazy powerful combat wise, but they are either slaved, or on a run, and are unstable. Half-giants are dumb, delves dont enter cities, ride, and are tied up to their tribes. And so it goes with every role. Celves though got a lot of negative offsets, and very few positive ones. They dont even have that much of an advantage of a 'tribe' of other elves that they could trust, unless multiple players start up a preplanned one or there's an upraise in normally closed up clans.

Infact come to think of it, there is a great deal of things a celf theme holds, that let's say ... a human couldnt do, or a half-elf. This isnt the case for pretty much any other race that I can think of.

I don't eat from the floor IRL, even when it's perfectly clean and I don't get a bonus to save vs poison. Some pigs might find my behavior irrational and unpractical.
The same way, my city-elves don't ride mounts, even though some GDB roundears might find this tradition obsolete.

You guys seem to be missing the part that city elves are just as tribe oriented as desert elves.

Until you display city elf tribes with a tradition for traveling between the cities, why do they need to 'run'? There is not one city elf tribe in the game that I'm aware of that is well known for wandering between the cities. It's likely most have happily spent their generations living, (and, if you're in a tribe you're likely not enslaved in a city, so you could say thriving) in the city environments (city elves) they have chosen for a home.

I'm fairly disappointed this part of the argument hasn't come up, it sounds like you just want to play city elves like agile humans or agile, arrogant dwarves. Playing a city elf isn't about going from city to city or exploring the known world. You're still playing an elf, roleplay is focused on a tribe whose inherant abilities come from living in likely one city. If you can't handle that, play a -desert- elf in a tribe known to travel, interact and sex everything (Sun Runners).

Personally, I'd like to see elves played properly before you give the part of the race without a karma requirement free-roaming capabilities so they can run off and portray the race even more poorly. Most tribes are not well documented and there's already too many for the staff to reasonably police.

The elven population in Zalanthas more or less requires them to be on the list that doesn't require karma and city elves are a very appealing option if you plan to play them how they've been written. Otherwise you're probably better off with a half-elf. My next character will be a city elf.

It would probably be better to either drop desert elves to a 0 karma race (where staff believes 'running' is too powerful an ability) or put city elves to 1 karma.

They run good in the cities, which is cool, but yeah.. they should be able to at least run a -little- better than humans in the wastes.  Not anything like Delves, but slightly better than humans.   But then again, a human from a tribe in the wastes should be able to run better than a human from the cities.  So I guess all races should be adjusted, depending on their upbringing.

Quote from: Doppelganger on April 12, 2008, 04:05:02 AM
I don't eat from the floor IRL, even when it's perfectly clean and I don't get a bonus to save vs poison.

What about the 3 second rule?

Having played both, I think they're fine as is. C-elves are damn good in their environment. If they want to leave the city, they either need to carry a tent or run with a group that carries one for them. Also, if a c-elf wants to do a lot of outdoor running, dressing accordingly can make a noticeable difference.

This trend that c-elves are somehow underpowered seems, for lack of a better word, ignorant to me.

Quote from: Sokotra on April 12, 2008, 10:50:22 AM
They run good in the cities, which is cool, but yeah.. they should be able to at least run a -little- better than humans in the wastes.

No offense, but desert elves often overshadow the fact that elves are weaker and less resilient than humans.  Desert elves do what they do because of generations of conditioning.  Those elves without that conditioning should be inferior to humans in desert travel.  The end.

Dalmeth pretty much says it.

City elves are not adapted to the desert like their ancestors were.  They are adapted to the city.  You shouldn't expect them to be superior to a human on a mount in the desert, because in all likelihood...they probably would be as uncomfortable there as a desert elf who decides to spend a lot of time in the city.

It happens, yes, but that doesn't mean they're -good- there, in a vague sense of the word 'good'.

I personally have seen some nasty elven warriors in the Rinth and such other places. I have also seen some damn dangerous non-combative elven PC's in those places. Combat is not the only way you can become powerful, therefore lacking strength is no big deal. And City Elves are the second most agile humanoid race in game. I personally think if they are played right like Hot Dancer said, they are just fine as a race. Everyone these days is so concerned about having that giant bruiser of a warrior.....I think that the more secretive types of PC's are more fun to play even though they may take a little more time to manage.

Basically, I think they are fine.

Desert elves should get a penalty to running in the city.

Quote from: Dalmeth on April 12, 2008, 02:55:09 PM
No offense, but desert elves often overshadow the fact that elves are weaker and less resilient than humans.  Desert elves do what they do because of generations of conditioning.  Those elves without that conditioning should be inferior to humans in desert travel.  The end.

Yeah, I'm still not sure on that... as far as desert travel in general, yes, humans should be better than city elves.  I'm talking about running.  Perhaps just on flat and solid terrain, but it just seemed to me that city elves should be at least -slightly- better than a city human when it comes to running in the desert.  I agree with what you are saying for the most part, though.  Maybe this could only go for when city elves are running on a road or something.. maybe it is already that way, I don't even know.  Just throwing out there what I thought would be logical.  I could be wrong... but again, a human from a desert tribe should be better at running through the desert than a human from the city.  Perhaps it wouldn't be that much of a difference to be noticeable, anyway.. or it would depend on the tribe.  *shrug*  Just a few thoughts...

If you combine specific things from strange shadow and Sokotra, I think you'd have a winning solution:

Make it so city elves get the reduced stamina drain when they're running on the North Road, between cities and Luir's. As soon as they leave the road, they go back to their usual stamina penalty. City elves are destined to be the -most- comfortable in the cities, no matter what the situation. So a little drain on roads outside the city would make sense. Just not as bad, or worse, than if they were a human doing the running. Because their legs are -still- longer and lanker than the average human. They -should- be able to stretch those legs further, with less stress, than a human should be able to do, on an actual road or well-worn path.

Also...

Make it so desert elves get a stamina penalty for running inside the city. Their feet, and even the way their boots get worn in, are adapted to soft ground, and rocky terrain. Not to smooth, hard-stone pavement. That should feel like a "slap" against the soles of their feet, virtually, and cause strain on the calf muscles and shins, and the arches of the feet..very tiring, you'd think.

Quote from: Lizzie on April 12, 2008, 08:37:33 PM
Make it so desert elves get a stamina penalty for running inside the city. Their feet, and even the way their boots get worn in, are adapted to soft ground, and rocky terrain. Not to smooth, hard-stone pavement. That should feel like a "slap" against the soles of their feet, virtually, and cause strain on the calf muscles and shins, and the arches of the feet..very tiring, you'd think.

Eh. I don't think so at all. Walking on uneven hard-packed ground, rocky terrain, and sand are all harder than walking on streets, regardless of what you're used to.

I like city elves just the way they are.

Does anyone think elves will exist in Arm 2.0, honestly?  There are more important things.  Still, while they exist, they should be able to run better than anyone else, and currently, they only can in certain areas, which is a load of BS.  Personally, I don't think there should be a delineation between city and desert elves, but oh well, we have one.  They should all just be elves with the same racial mods, going in and out of cities but remaining a nomadic people to the core.

City elves thrive so long as their 'rinthi.  ::)

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 12, 2008, 09:31:16 PM

Quote from: Lizzie on April 12, 2008, 08:37:33 PM
Make it so desert elves get a stamina penalty for running inside the city. Their feet, and even the way their boots get worn in, are adapted to soft ground, and rocky terrain. Not to smooth, hard-stone pavement. That should feel like a "slap" against the soles of their feet, virtually, and cause strain on the calf muscles and shins, and the arches of the feet..very tiring, you'd think.

Eh. I don't think so at all. Walking on uneven hard-packed ground, rocky terrain, and sand are all harder than walking on streets, regardless of what you're used to.

Okay then maybe their semi-xenophobia leads them to rather freak out in the throngs typically gathering in cities, slowing their movement as they try to avoid contact.

Which is an interesting concept in itself.

Running through people?  City elves may be able to pull it off, whether by dashing through booths or whatnot.  Desert elves?  That's some densely packed space.  *shrug*

I'm not really preferential to anything in particular.  I don't think there's a 'fix' needed, but I wouldn't throw a fit about a change, either.

Oh yeah! I totally support the idea of giving city elves a run bonus in cities. They could dash through the crowds in the bazaars without ease, find the quickest paths down streets, etc.

Quote from: jstorrie on April 13, 2008, 04:10:05 AM
Oh yeah! I totally support the idea of giving city elves a run bonus in cities. They could dash through the crowds in the bazaars without ease, find the quickest paths down streets, etc.

But why couldn't a human do this?

Sorry for being off topic.

Because elves are better.

I really enjoyed Hot Dancer's perspective. My intial reaction was no, they shouldn't run better in the wastes. But I think Hot Dancer really points out why they don't need that running bonus. Thanks HD

Quote from: Shalooonsh on April 13, 2008, 09:35:52 AM
Because elves are better.

... Oh. Right. Well then, dispute settled.

I keep writing out concepts for a delf, but I keep chickening out. I just cant bring myself to put in the App. It all sounds so intriguing, but then I'm like... Will I have fun? Will there be a consistent amount of people there to enjoy the game with? Will I be able to fight whatever urges I might get to go against the docs? Will I play one realistically?

Stuff like that.

A lot of people here have only pointed out the physical details about why city elves should be able to run outside of cities, but the way I see it, you have to look at their psyche as well.

I think the documentation is fairly clear that city elves are territorial and would most likely not leave their city (or, to be even more realistic, their district) of origin -- its home, it's familiar, it's THEIRS.  They are territorial over a specific area, not the vague concept of just "a city," and so I believe a city elf who was raised in Allanak would be just as uncomfortable in Tuluk as he would be in the middle of the bloody wastes (and vice versa). 

The running penality is fine; I can imagine very few instances where any sane elf (as far as sane goes with them.. ^.-) would have any business at all outside of their home turf.  The stamina penalties can be thought of as a direct result of their extreme discomfort.

Besides... out in the desert, or on the road to Luir's... they are still standing naked in the open. :)

I voted 'Let 'em ride mounts' because if the argument against them being able to run in the wastes is a lack of conditioning from generations of living in that environment I do not think they would have the same aversion to mounts as they do not have the same confidence in the ability which riding a mount replaces.

Pride in the fact that you don't ride mounts is the reason why your race is not making an appearance in Arm 2.

GG prideful city elves.

Quote from: Malken on April 13, 2008, 12:38:16 PMPride in the fact that you don't ride mounts is the reason why your race is not making an appearance in Arm 2.

IP issues aside, city-elves should not make it into 2.0 because concept of the race is seriously fucked up with staff enforcing thesis "don't trust an elf" too hard on OOC level. People refuse to buy even perfectly laid scam to avoid branded poor roleplayers, city elven merchant takes the same spot on a social ladder as your average undead, altogether it hardly represents the race that supposedly takes a quarter of city's population and been living alongside with humans for ages.

This thread itself is a natural development of roleplaying culture, IMO. When most vrtual guidelines are no longer taken seriously, people start question coded differences between races as well as the bounds that limit them to certain ways of racial roleplay. With that in mind, I believe that staff should make serious adjustments to racial structure of Arm 2.0. Races that are any different from human should make it, because they will be proven unplayable by the playerbase.

The thing I find irritating is that most PCs dealing with city elves don't take into account virtual or NPC families.

The main "bonus" city elves get is a family with practically unfailing loyalty.

Unfortunately, this is usually virtual, non-coded, and easily dismissed.  Hell, even when you -are- in a coded city-elf tribe, chances are there isn't a staffer assigned to it, which means you're only slightly better off than your average "my entire family is dead" city-elf.

I have felt an itch to get a mount with a city-elf.  If you're playing in such a way that you feel a need to go and drop half a large on a riding critter... just what exactly ARE you doing???

Admittedly, all of my city-elves save maybe one were played with a player-organized family.  I didn't know there were any hard-coded ones, but it isn't difficult to post on Player Announcements and start setting up a city-elf tribe, especially if you've got a talent for theme and writing up something interesting.  Playing the lone badass just doesn't pay.  :P

QuotePeople refuse to buy even perfectly laid scam to avoid branded poor roleplayers, city elven merchant takes the same spot on a social ladder as your average undead, altogether it hardly represents the race that supposedly takes a quarter of city's population and been living alongside with humans for ages.

Just wanted to note (And sorry to derail), this is what I meant by the elven mentality.  In my opinion, elves should not rely on trust the same way other merchants may.  Instead, situations are manipulated to either make things incredibly tempting or give their 'scam target' little to no choice in the matter.  I'd point out examples, except for that then people would be on guard against it.  But if someone is having a really hard time getting into the elven mentality, drop me a line.  I don't consider myself an expert, but I did learn some tricks of the trade over the years.

Just to reiterate, an elven merchant may have this innate mistrust placed in them, but they know it will be there.  It leads to an entirely different way of doing business.  It is not merely a 'show your wares and haggle' deal that most merchants do, which is what makes the elf so enjoyable to play.  There are far more facets to their business than the average business-running PC.

Would you believe, Armaddict, it's quite an easy task to tell when an average retard acts by the logic of IC events, and when he is suddenly struck with realisation that Mom and Dad told him not to talk with strangers.

I never said the role of an elven smuggler is an easy task and it never was. I simply point at the fact that three years ago the role was -possible-.

I don't think you understand what I mean.

I'm not talking about fooling them, I'm talking about making them HAVE to deal with you.

Why, I understood that you talk about blade at their throat IRL.

Has anyone else been unable to follow the last part of this conversation?


I personally feel that the City Elves have gotten the shaft for completely different reasons... Mainly a lack of documentation and an appropriate Staff/NPC layer.  It's almost all PC and VNPC.

Were you aware that there is only ONE coded, staff "sponsored" City-Elf tribe?  One...  And it's in the 'Rinth.

A resource-less ghetto with a glass-ceiling two cords above the rooftops....

Anyone else ever played in that Tribe and try to trade and do business with Desert Elves (as per the documents)?

Good Luck meeting them in the 'Rinth...
And don't LEAVE the city for the Highlord's sake, Zagren might get angry and ban you for a month...

Oh yes, and let's say you want to play in an established City-Elf tribe in Tuluk...  Tough cookies.  Even though a THIRD of the population is Elven, there are no established families, gangs, or other social groups.  Oops.


Shallow documentation that really gets to me...

QuoteAnyone else ever played in that Tribe and try to trade and do business with Desert Elves (as per the documents)?

I didn't have problems with it.  At all.

This is turning into another general gripes with c-elf thread. Trendy! :P

Edited to be more constructive: Let's start a thread on how to improve c-elves!

Quote from: psionic fungus on April 13, 2008, 07:22:54 PM
Were you aware that there is only ONE coded, staff "sponsored" City-Elf tribe?  One...  And it's in the 'Rinth.

A resource-less ghetto with a glass-ceiling two cords above the rooftops....

Anyone else ever played in that Tribe and try to trade and do business with Desert Elves (as per the documents)?

Good Luck meeting them in the 'Rinth...
And don't LEAVE the city for the Highlord's sake, Zagren might get angry and ban you for a month...

Gotta say... I smell what you are stepping in.   Hard to disagree with any of that.

To clarify some things:

There are actually several -coded- city-elf tribes in the 'rinth.

Whether they all receive dedicated staff support is another question entirely.

QuoteQuote from: psionic fungus on Today at 09:22:54 am
Were you aware that there is only ONE coded, staff "sponsored" City-Elf tribe?  One...  And it's in the 'Rinth.

A resource-less ghetto with a glass-ceiling two cords above the rooftops....

Anyone else ever played in that Tribe and try to trade and do business with Desert Elves (as per the documents)?

Good Luck meeting them in the 'Rinth...
And don't LEAVE the city for the Highlord's sake, Zagren might get angry and ban you for a month...

Gotta say... I smell what you are stepping in.   Hard to disagree with any of that.

Aside from the want for city elf tribes, none of that is particularly accurate.  The clan was just a bad one for him, is what I gather, as the documentation is pretty good and very explicit in the culture of that tribe.

I suppose the bit about the resourceless 'rinth is true, but...how is that different for any other race?  Because they have a -different- clan option in the 'rinth?

In addition, I would like to say that there are definately places IG where it is possible to play an enjoyable C-Elf with all the family and social support that they should have available to them.

Quote from: Psionic Fungus
Were you aware that there is only ONE coded, staff "sponsored" City-Elf tribe?

Quote from: Synthesis
There are actually several -coded- city-elf tribes in the 'rinth.

Whether they all receive dedicated staff support is another question entirely.

I have been hounding the staff about a variety of issues surrounding city-elves for a few months now... I sent an email lamenting (once again) the lack of city-elf tribes and asking about playing a character in a certain tribe in the 'Rinth... The response was this:

Quote from: Adhira
Only the Haruch Kemad is supported staff wise of the rinth elven tribes.

YMMV.

Quote from: Armaddict
Because they have a -different- clan option in the 'rinth?

Yes... You're moving in the right direction...

To get back to the running issue with city elves, I was thinking a little, and my conclusion goes something like this:

If desert elves can run long distances because of their physical conditioning, and not their racial genetics ... then city elves don't need to have any special running ability because they lack the physical conditioning that made desert elves able to run like that.

Of course, that might open the counter-arguement of: Ok then, if it's not genetic and it's based on physical conditioning why can't human tribals run long distances?

But ... then I remembered, human tribals don't have the cultural nuiance of refusing to let a mount carry their weight around so, even though the humans are living in tribes in the desert, they never bothered to condition themselves for long distance running because climbing on the back of a kank was an easier alternative.

So ... in the end, I'm thinking ... if the running ability is genetic, give it to the city elves as well. If the running ability is a product of their enviorment, then don't.

Quote from: musashi on April 16, 2008, 05:49:00 AM
If desert elves can run long distances because of their physical conditioning, and not their racial genetics ... then city elves don't need to have any special running ability because they lack the physical conditioning that made desert elves able to run like that.

Another interpretation being that, while elves are still the same race and can crossbreed, producing a fertile member of the same race (something that always got me about half-elves, mind you, but this isn't the place) elves in the desert naturally select for those who can run marathons, because the others die. Early. Now, there's obviously a great amount of physical conditioning that goes into simply growing up in the wastes, but humans simply -can't- do what desert elves do, because they haven't been under that genetic pressure for centuries/millenia.

Think of it like greyhounds and basset hounds:  yeah, they could probably hump and make greybass hounds, but the fact that they can do so in no way implies that even the fastest basset hound could ever run as fast as the most piss-poor, malnourished greyhound there ever was.

The fact that two sets share some common properties does not imply that both sets must therefore share all properties in common.  It's basic logic, folks.  (Remember those Venn diagrams they had you drawing up, and you were all like, "WTF, this is fucking stupid?")

Further, the "pop-culture evolution" nonsense is so bad I'm not even going to comment further on it.

This begs the question: When a city-elf and a desert-elf mate, what is the offspring?

???

Drizzt Do'Urden

Your logic throws me into a fit of rage, whereupon brightly hued blood begins to spurt from my eye sockets.  :D


Seriously though... Can some various Elves start breeding so we can answer the question of whether being a Desert Elf is nature or nurture?

Quote from: Synthesis on April 16, 2008, 11:56:13 PM
Drizzt Do'Urden

Lol.....I agree....

Quote from: Synthesis on April 16, 2008, 10:37:24 PM
Think of it like greyhounds and basset hounds:  yeah, they could probably hump and make greybass hounds, but the fact that they can do so in no way implies that even the fastest basset hound could ever run as fast as the most piss-poor, malnourished greyhound there ever was.

The fact that two sets share some common properties does not imply that both sets must therefore share all properties in common.  It's basic logic, folks.  (Remember those Venn diagrams they had you drawing up, and you were all like, "WTF, this is fucking stupid?")

Further, the "pop-culture evolution" nonsense is so bad I'm not even going to comment further on it.

But aren't grey hounds and basset hounds two different species? I would think that analogy is more akin to comparing humans and elves than desert elves and city elves.

But I'm just playing devil's adovcate a little.

Yeah the dog thing doesn't really apply, it's more like eskimo's and egyptians.  Both human.  But eskimo's have adapted to life in the freezing tundra.  Egyptians to the desert wastes. 

/derail of own thread
Now all we need is a funny neighbor and an obnoxious landlord and we got a sitcom.
/derail

They are both human, same genetics.  Just they aren't going to be enjoying or be able to handle being in each others environment.  That's life.  You can become acclimatized to the environment.  But you can't suddenly gain the ability to run marathons.  Took me 2 and a half years before I could run 26 miles.  And I'll tell you.  I don't want to do it again.  That sucked. 

But if you do it every day, all your life, your cool with it, it isn't no thing.  City elves, have gained the knowledge and street smarts of living the streets.  Desert elves have gained the ability to survive in the deserts and become sorta one with them.  That's the way of it I see it.  It's not evolution.  It's Eskimos and Egyptians.

Quote from: musashi on April 17, 2008, 10:03:54 AM
But aren't grey hounds and basset hounds two different species? I would think that analogy is more akin to comparing humans and elves than desert elves and city elves.

They are different BREEDS of the same species and even subspecies, canis familiaris familiaris. They can interbreed just fine.