Is it me, or do some classes seem to be grossly underpowered in combat?
Merchants, pickpockets, and magickers especially.
Even with a decent bit of combat training, it has been my experience that they are regularly bested by things like skeets, jozhals, and other various small creatures.
Now, don't get me wrong, I don't want them to rival a warrior in combat prowess, but doesn't it seem a bit screwy that a merchant can't fight a small lizard?
In D&D, 3 cats can kill a level 1 mage.
THERE GOES YOUR 4 HIT POINTS
MAGIC MISSILE.
Stupid derailing Canuck.
Underpowered in combat? Yes.
Intentional? Yes.
These classes weren't meant to be melee fighters...but still, there are ways of making them at least decent in a fight against the wild life...Finding the right weapon works wonders.
Yeah, it is a little dumb, but I think part of it is to prevent the merchant from being his own hunter. Skins from small, supposedly harmless animals can often be worth as much as the skin of a raptor or the shell of a beetle, and if a merchant could just go out and kill a jozhal, then skin it himself, tan the hide, and sell it or work it into a finished product, I think it'd be negative for the game's already shaky economical balance.
Quote from: "Pale Horse"Underpowered in combat? Yes.
Intentional? Yes.
These classes weren't meant to be melee fighters...but still, there are ways of making them at least decent in a fight against the wild life...Finding the right weapon works wonders.
It's not just that they're underpowered, but they can't kill a small herbivore the size of an iguana.
That's not underpowered.
That's unrealistic.
Quote from: "Hymwen"Yeah, it is a little dumb, but I think part of it is to prevent the merchant from being his own hunter. Skins from small, supposedly harmless animals can often be worth as much as the skin of a raptor or the shell of a beetle, and if a merchant could just go out and kill a jozhal, then skin it himself, tan the hide, and sell it or work it into a finished product, I think it'd be negative for the game's already shaky economical balance.
You forget that merchants lack skin.
Edit: and that skin-granting subguilds are capped at a fairly low level.
QuoteYou forget that merchants lack skin.
No.
Can they skin? Yes.
Can they skin well? Maybe. Maybe not.
Either way, merchants skinning jozhals wouldn't really be that bad. Shouldn't they be able to anyway? Just because a person's vocation or skillbase is focused around trading, why shouldn't they be able to kill small animals like any regular human/elf/dwarf/whatever.
The shock of seeing a grown man get murdered by a small, docile animal far outweighs the ability for a merchant to sell jozhal pelts.
At least I think so.
I think Hymwen is right. I don't find it unrealistic, because classes are about talents - and I could imagine someone unable to kill anything bigger than a kitty. Merchants have other powers, IMHO.
But I also think that the system on Arm2 is going to be slightly different in this matter.
I don't think most of these animals are truly harmless little fluffy wabbits, except maybe tregils (and merchants can kill those). Jozhals might be more like fierce, semi-intelligent dogs when cornered. Most Zalanthan creatures survive by being:
a) Hard to kill
b) Very stealthy
c) Not worth killing
And then there's the mysterious tregil that survives possibly because it multiplies like rabbits on viagra, faster than the hordes of spoiled treehuggers can kill them. Heh heh.
You mean there are merchants out there who don't take the Hunter or Archer subguild? Freaky.
Quote from: "Morfeus"I think Hymwen is right. I don't find it unrealistic, because classes are about talents - and I could imagine someone unable to kill anything bigger than a kitty. Merchants have other powers, IMHO.
But I also think that the system on Arm2 is going to be slightly different in this matter.
I'm hoping so. I actually made this more with 2.arm in mind. And I really hope that class system allows for merchants who don't fight like boneless toddlers.
And Morfeus, really? A fully functional, grown human being unable to kill a kitten? Or cat? Even as a hyperbole, that's ridiculous.
I don't know about you but if a cat new i was trying to kill, it I'd likely be unable to kill it. Sure if it's just lazing there in the sun and is domesticated and doesn't see me start swinging. Otherwise just forget about it.
::vision of a cat latching onto it's attackers face comes to mind::
Quote from: "daedroug"I don't know about you but if a cat new i was trying to kill, it I'd likely be unable to kill it. Sure if it's just lazing there in the sun and is domesticated and doesn't see me start swinging. Otherwise just forget about it.
::vision of a cat latching onto it's attackers face comes to mind::
You watch too many cartoons. Try killing a cat that wont run away. It's easy.
Especially if you have a knife.
Well they aren't little cats. Taking the jozhal as an example, it's probably as big as a large goose and extremely quick, plus it has sharp claws and grew up in the toughest neighbourhood you can imagine (apart from the 'rinth, maybe). And the only reason it doesn't run away once you attack it is because it's coded not to flee when injured, which is very unrealistic but would probably be way too much of a hassle if implemented.
Merchants can kill some things. There are little animals, mainly in the north, that a merchant can take down if he/she really wants to. I still believe it's more healthy for the game that merchants generally can't do their own hunting. The guild system may not be fully realistic but I guess that's something we accept for now, and hope might change you-know-when.
I actually feel that the guilds system works best if you base your characters around your guild in a way, however odd that may sound. What I mean is that I'll make my merchant a person who doesn't want to go hunting, rather than question the fact that I can't kill most animals.
I find this to be an issue with many skills. I think that class cut offs are too sharp. A merchant, even a fat lazy bastard, should be able to hide behind a bed or rock. He might hide poorly, and any idiot might be able to spot him if they bother to look (scan), but anyone should be able to do it. The same goes for scan. Any warriors should be able to at least TRY and find a hidden person. If the hidden person is an incompetently hiding merchant, the warrior should be able to spot hi,
There are other silly skills out there. Skinning a Silt Horror should produce SOMETHING to anyone who knows how to hold a blade with stabbing themselves through the gut. Starting everyone off low cooking such that they can't cook a piece of meat or slice frigging piece of fruit is silly to the point of absurdity. I, as a lazy ass American who can't cook can cook a steak better then my jack ass rangers who I assume must have had to of learned how to cook at least one point in his life. Any idiot should be able to notice a silt horror track.
I think that the idea that your character must start out at zero some times gets in the way of reality. People should enter the game with the ability to cook a steak, slice fruit, kill a rat, hide poorly, spot a poor hider, track a silt horror, kick a sleeping person, backstab a sleeping person, and keep themselves from being killed by a knee high cat. Failure for the sake of preserving the idea that you start at zero or the idea that your class CAN'T DO THAT really doesn't add much in my opinion. I don't think the world would end if my ranger started knowing how to hold a piece of meat over the fire without catching himself on fire, or if my merchant knew how to cower behind a rock when raiders came close.
Seriously.
Even people without any combat skills should be able to fend themselves against, say, a vestric. Comparing a merchant to your average American is a silly thing; that merchant is working all day, carrying heavy things and dealing with muggers and breaking rocks or chopping wood. They don't sit on a couch watching television.
You take a guy like that, even without any combat training whatsoever, dress him up in hard leather and give him a sharp bone stick and pit him against a dog-sized rat. The rat is not going to win!
A jozhal has sharp claws and it's a quick animal, but that's all it is. A jozhal isn't an RL jackal. And now picture yourself for a moment wearing hard wooden armor and holding two spears made of super-hard bone, and going up against this:
(http://www.africanfauna.com/images/jackal.jpg)
That's a nasty looking canine, but you're wearing armor and carrying spears. You'd get hurt, but do you seriously think an animal like that can kill a grown, armed and armored human on its own?
New game fixes that problem with the ability to duel class.
Quote from: "HoD"New game fixes that problem with the ability to duel class.
I disagree.
What if I want to make a Pure merchant? I won't be able to kill a vestric?
I'd rather not be forced to duel class.
I had a merchant who, after over a year of Byn training, managed to kill a gortok by himself.
If you want to make a pure merchant, then you have to go with the "basic instinct" of your PC. And lack the "formal training" a skill gives you.
Sure, we can all fight RL, we have the basic ability, but I for one, wouldn't go up against a soldier, nor would I go up against any type of wild animal. Due to the simple fact I would get my butt handed too me.
The lack of a coded weapon skill implies that your PC has spent his life in the city under the protection of the king and his loyal warriors. Just because the world is a harsh unforving place doesn't mean you should have a weapon skill. You can play the game and die of old age without ever getting into a fight.
And besides, if your in armour wielding spears or what have you, you'll have an advantage over simpler creatures - but then, on the other hand - the citter has teeth and claws, and if it gets in close that spear becomes useless, simply because you cant use it at such a close range, more so if the creature is up on you mauling your face.
A dog-sized rat? Yeah, screw that. I'll stick to the merchant places and continue to buy and sell under the protection of the king, thank you very much.
Quote from: "HoD"If you want to make a pure merchant, then you have to go with the "basic instinct" of your PC. And lack the "formal training" a skill gives you.
Sure, we can all fight RL, we have the basic ability, but I for one, wouldn't go up against a soldier, nor would I go up against any type of wild animal. Due to the simple fact I would get my butt handed too me.
The lack of a coded weapon skill implies that your PC has spent his life in the city under the protection of the king and his loyal warriors. Just because the world is a harsh unforving place doesn't mean you should have a weapon skill. You can play the game and die of old age without ever getting into a fight.
And besides, if your in armour wielding spears or what have you, you'll have an advantage over simpler creatures - but then, on the other hand - the citter has teeth and claws, and if it gets in close that spear becomes useless, simply because you cant use it at such a close range, more so if the creature is up on you mauling your face.
A dog-sized rat? Yeah, screw that. I'll stick to the merchant places and continue to buy and sell under the protection of the king, thank you very much.
I really think you under estimate the innate combat ability of human beings. Nearly all grown human beings, male or female, are capable of fending off attacks from lesser wild animals. You give a human tools - weapons - and even an unskilled teenager will be able to kill a large dog.
The inability for a merchant class human (or humanoid, for that matter) to fend off attacks from large iguanas is ridiculous, especially when that human has weapons. It doesn't matter if that human is a pampered noble or a seasoned warrior, it's going to be able to defend itself from a small, non-deadly creature.
Well, I think you over estimate. But to each there own?
The point is, from an OOC point of view, giving merchants the coded combat skills plus the ability to craft pretty much every item in the game removes the need for the merchant to hire guards, hunters, gatherers, etc, removing the sid to spread out around the PC population, thus screwing the the game's ecomony.
In the new game, if you want to have combat abilities, you can pick warrior/merchant. You'd get combat skills plus crafting skills, but not the extent of a pure warrior or a pure merchant. Game balance. And I for one like it. I mean, who here likes the idea of the class system? I know I do. I have done classless muds, they just end up becoming lame. With every tom dick and harry being both L33t warriors and master craftsmen and handsome swavy socialites. I dont wanna be master of all, superman of the world. I just want to be the guy everyone says "Oh, yeh need that done? Ah know just the man!"
If, at the very least. I would like to see subguilds offer weapon skills, however.
HoD, have you played a merchant? The ability to kill small animals is no match for the haggle skill or the ability to chop down trees. Or the ability to forage and find precious gemstones. In fact, for established merchants, it'll be cheaper to buy hides of small animals rather than go out and kill them. Yeah, even jozhals. The hides aren't made of metal or anything.
And this isn't about giving merchants, pickpockets, etc. the combat skills of a ranger or warrior. It's about not letting them get killed in an unrealistic fashion by something that should not be able to kill a humanoid.
Skeet are over six feet long, or somewhere near there...
That's not little....
I once had a ranger get seriously wounded by a vestric.
Something needs to be tweaked.
Quote
the wizened, horn-helmed man says, "There he is!"
the brawny, full-bearded man says, "Where?"
the wizened, horn-helmed man says, "There!"
the brawny, full-bearded man says, "What? Behind the vestric?"
the wizened, horn-helmed man says, "It *is* the vestric!"
The problems with a merchant fighting an aggressive "dog sized rat," is that when the merchant does get the first hit, he may get over confident, leading to even more errors, then he may get nervous, fidgety, scared shitless. Then if he isn't used to blood. the sight of his own blood may cause him to panic. When someone panics in a fight, it is easy for them to lose.
Want an example?
I am a marine that was in full protective gear trying to ward off an aggro dog-sized dog. That fucker tackled me, shredded some of my protective gear, gave me a shitload of scratches.
Why? I got the first hit, got over confident, got the dog to feel like it is in a corner, and it fucked me up. Could have killed me if the guy didn't say his german word for stop to make the dog lick my face and run off wagging its tail.
If you are telling me, a merchant, who spends all their time not fighting, will fight a wild animal bigger than a rat and win.. well, I say BS.
Fighting a dog sized pig is also fucking risky. My brothers arm was broken that way.
And, if you don't think I am good at fighting, I am 8-2 for unarmed sparring for this year against equally trained marines.
I can't even win against spiders IRL.
Make your merchants scared wimps like me.
QuoteThe inability for a merchant class human (or humanoid, for that matter) to fend off attacks from large iguanas is ridiculous, especially when that human has weapons. It doesn't matter if that human is a pampered noble or a seasoned warrior, it's going to be able to defend itself from a small, non-deadly creature.
It's not like merchants die in a harsh wind. An animal such as a jozhal, a vestric or your proverbial dog-sized rat will probably need to claw/bite/slap the merchant ten or more times for him or her to actually die. If the merchant in question is wearing armor, it might be even more. It's generally not until you go up against real predators or larger mammals that we can talk about the risk of getting slaughtered. Yeah merchants can't really fight, but it's not like that tregil is gnawing him in half the second a fight breaks out. Can you (those of you who aren't ripped army guys or practice martial arts) take on a feral dog without getting some scrapes and cuts, and maybe a nasty bite on your arm when you "fend off attacks" from it?
Merchants suck at fighting, maybe a little more than is realistic, but they can dodge hits and even parry/block if wielding the proper equipment. It also depends a lot on stats; you're not going to avoid many hits if your agility sucks, and you're not causing much carnage if you're having trouble lifting that spear.
Maybe animals are sometimes unfairly strong or evasive. I've had my newly-made burglar (described as having moderate combat prowess) spar against a merchant and the merchant held their own fairly well considering that they're completely unskilled in combat. I've also had my ranger forced to flee from things like hawks, durrits (aren't they a bit like swans in size/shape?) and jozhals. Don't get me started on trying to hunt as an assassin. Sometimes the rats just twink out and bite you very hard on the neck.
Well, this is getting kind of circular, isn't it?
Edit: =P
Quote from: "Maybe42or54"I am a marine that was in full protective gear trying to ward off an aggro dog-sized dog. That fucker tackled me, shredded some of my protective gear, gave me a shitload of scratches.
Why? I got the first hit, got over confident, got the dog to feel like it is in a corner, and it fucked me up. Could have killed me if the guy didn't say his german word for stop to make the dog lick my face and run off wagging its tail.
I'm telling you this, if a marine can't take on a dog, then we're all screwed. I know this from personal experience, having been attacked by a LARGE wild dog before. (I don't know if you have any country, dirt-road experience, but when I say wild dog I mean like feckin' feral-wild.) I was only twelve at the time and wearing nothing but a T-shirt and blue jeans. Yeah, I got bit pretty bad and scratched even worse, but when you think you are really about to be die something will snap, you will grab that sumbitch by the throat and repeatedly ram your fist, feet and everything else into it's face.
Maybe the reason you were taken down and had such a rough time was BECAUSE of the protective gear. Are you talking about one of those big, bulky dog-suits they use to train police dogs? I doubt I could fend off a rabbit if I was wearing something the prohibited movement that bad.
So yeah, I defiantly think that even an unarmed, unarmored merchant should be able to kill a Jozahl or a Vestric. They may claw and bite you, but feck, Merchants got teeth and nails to.
Quote from: "Maybe42or54"Fighting a dog sized pig is also fucking risky. My brothers arm was broken that way.
I agree with you here, hogs can be feckin' SCARY when they're pissed.
Quote from: "Maybe42or54"And, if you don't think I am good at fighting, I am 8-2 for unarmed sparring for this year against equally trained marines.
D00d, 8-2's really not that good of a record. You lost twice :wink:
Exactly. And the two times I lost, the guy was a Mul.
As for my opinions on the "I want a full merchant, but I still want to kill shit." We can't have it all.
Get a merchant specialization in something and hunt a little bit by yourself, or be a full merchant and and involve other pcs in your life by paying them to get what you want. This game is about interaction with other people, not about making as much money as you can, as fast as you can. Get out there and involve other people. Its more fun that way.
Nobody said they wanted a merchant that can kill shit for himself.
Some people would just like to have a Merchant that doesn't get killed by a kank-fly while he takes a walk outside for once.
No, no, you've all got it all wrong.
The truth is, all the animals hate merchants more than any other class, so they fight harder. Because the dragon is a communist.
I bet I would do good against a wild dog if I had a couple of obsidian daggers to defend myself with.
To the marine guy, were you trying to fight off the dog with a big ass sword, too?
I once also managed to knock a dog out with a hockey stick when I was 16.. Of course, I'm also Canadian, so I'm probably of the Canadian class that comes with Hockey Stick Combat skill pretty boosted up to begin with.
I'm about the farthest thing possible from an expert on combat in game or in real life...but from what I've experienced, it's not a -given- that the mentioned classes will be completely unable to defend themselves in combat right from the start. For example, I had a newbie magicker who was able to kill a skeet one-on-one, armed with just a single normal dagger, wearing no armor, and using no spells. Yes, the character was in fairly poor shape after that and I kinda thought the fight might not be survivable, but it turned out OK. There was certainly plenty of time to flee and run away.
So I'm just saying, I don't think it's 100% the case that a merchant, magicker, or pickpocket is going to be swatted by the first kankfly out of the gates. Like many things...it depends.
Quote from: "Tisiphone"No, no, you've all got it all wrong.
The truth is, all the animals hate merchants more than any other class, so they fight harder. Because the dragon is a communist.
Actually no, the Dragon is a capitalist pig. He perpetuates the class combat that this thread is addressing. The Dragon, aided by ginka, the NPCs, and the rightist staff autocracy, wants the "combat" classes (warriors, rangers) and their "strong" allies (mages, mindbenders, HGs and muls) to rule the game, at the expense of the hardworking crafter proletariat (merchants).
It's a vast capitalist conspiracy. How can I prove it, you ask? I apped a human merchant named Lenin (I even said he was from Tuluk!) and the staff REJECTED me! They knew what kind of uprising I might start! But we won't be stopped! Join me in overthrowing the rightist capitalist autocracy! Equal karma and equal combat skills for all the people! Vive le revolution!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: "Jherlen"Quote from: "Tisiphone"No, no, you've all got it all wrong.
The truth is, all the animals hate merchants more than any other class, so they fight harder. Because the dragon is a communist.
Actually no, the Dragon is a capitalist pig. He perpetuates the class combat that this thread is addressing. The Dragon, aided by ginka, the NPCs, and the rightist staff autocracy, wants the "combat" classes (warriors, rangers) and their "strong" allies (mages, mindbenders, HGs and muls) to rule the game, at the expense of the hardworking crafter proletariat (merchants).
It's a vast capitalist conspiracy. How can I prove it, you ask? I apped a human merchant named Lenin (I even said he was from Tuluk!) and the staff REJECTED me! They knew what kind of uprising I might start! But we won't be stopped! Join me in overthrowing the rightist capitalist autocracy! Equal karma and equal combat skills for all the people! Vive le
revolution!!!!!!!!!!!!
Actually, I accidentally apped a Nakkie named Stalin once. Pickpocket too.
Didn't mean to name him Stalin though. Oh, the fun we would have had. And if only the Panzerkank guy was around at the time too.
Quote from: "Cegar"Actually, I accidentally apped a Nakkie named Stalin once. Pickpocket too.
Didn't mean to name him Stalin though. Oh, the fun we would have had. And if only the Panzerkank guy was around at the time too.
I'm not disbelieving you, but how do you accidentally name someone?
Oh no... I just checked. His name was Lenin. I took your name.
12) XXXXXXX - Dead
13) Lenin - Dead
14) XXXXX - Dead
Edit: I'm not sure... I think I was pretty tired and hit a few wrong letters and didn't notice. He died pretty quick though.
You're obviously a traitor! A part of the rightist conspiracy! They wouldn't allow the REAL Lenin in their game!
Haha! This post was actually just a ploy to rally support for the learned combat aristocracy!
If your merchant is almost dead because of a kank fly, run.
Be real, if you are getting the shit fucked out of you by a kank fly. There is a reason that kank fly is taking down a human.
It can't kill you if it can't find you.
Quote from: "Jherlen"You're obviously a traitor! A part of the rightist conspiracy! They wouldn't allow the REAL Lenin in their game!
Of course not. He'd be a zombie or something similarly unwholesome, and you know how folks frown on the undead.
Well, his corpse -is- preserved....
...and Armageddon is supposedly post-apocalyptic, far in the future...
...and who knows what those crazy sorcerors can do...
...Arise Lenin, Arise!