Poll
GOOD! Your character should feel the same way.[/i][/b]
Agreed.
True.
I've been killed many times by mundanes who just found me travelling outside the city and decided: "Well, noone's around. My character is a "raider" (I just want an excuse to pk someone because I have no intentions of letting them live no matter how cooperative they are with me.) and had them randomly jump and kill my pc with no other interaction whatsoever.
I've -never- had a magicker pc do this to me.
Exactly, -every- time I've seen a mundane killed by a magicker it's because the dumbass brought it upon themselves by either attacking on sight or not leaving the area when the magicker gave them fair warning to: "Get out of here or it's gonna be bad for you."
It's like going and trying to poke a mekillot with a stick (knowing how dangerous they are), getting killed by it and then blaming the mekillot.
I have never seen this either. I've only died once to a magicker and it was when I was playing one myself and had done something to give them cause to want me dead. I was given a pretty interesting death scene as well.
Your badass warrior should be too afraid for his life and the lives of his family and friends to -ever- go take on a magicker by himself. And if you don't believe one mis-spell can mean your magicker is fucked by almost -any- mundane (much less a badass warrior) then you quite obviously don't have much experience with magick.
I have lost a few magickers to a single spell failing at a bad time.
Right on the money there and with your whole post Cenghiz. It's pretty close to things I've seen and experienced regarding magick.
That's a completely bullshit thing to say and you've just lost -every- ounce of respect I once had for you for saying it.
Sounds to me like you're only saying it because you think that mundane pcs should be out there hunting down and killing magickers solo. Used to do it before (even though it has been said several times that this should -rarely- if -ever- happen) You're likely one of the people that are the cause of them having to be given more teeth codedly.
(Only put that in there to show how dickheaded that statement you made was and can be said in reverse.)
How would you have liked it if the discussion was about desert elves and I popped in and made a statement that -everyone- who likes desert elves and plays them consistently just do it because they're a bunch of pgaming/pk'ing twinks? Actually, through my experiences I've been pk'ed randomly by delves a whole shitload more times while travelling outside with -any- pc. There you have it folks, desert elves are overpowered and I -hate- them. :roll:
I've had exactly the opposite experience. There has been absolutely -zero- increase in my magicker encounters with mundane pcs since they were given teeth. Why? Because I didn't go looking for them, I stayed away from places that they hear they may be lurking. Huh, pretty much the same way I played it before they were given teeth.
Codedly, a magicker can actually be killed by almost -any- mundane pc. If you aren't stupid about it and you disregard the fact that you should almost -never- typically be trying to kill them by yourself as far as the gameworld is concerned.
No it is not like that. With an assassin you would not really be going after PCs and expecting a score before you hit the 20 days of play time. (And even after 20 days, there will be occasions you will get your ass handed to you even after preparation)
On the other hand, a friend of mine recently told me how fast he could become confident enough for survival: He said he branched 9 spells within 2 days of play time and nearly 1 day of it, he was linkdead due to power shortage.
Considering this statement and a previous experience of mine, from this point on whenever I roll for an outdoorsy character, or more like someone who is not totally city-bound I will always roll a magicker. Seriously, why make a mundane and try so hard and get smoked in the halfway before you are confident enough that you can achieve your character's goals?
Being self sufficent? So what? Any ranger with half a brain behind their player is self-sufficent almost from the get go!
Magickers can't go around slaughtering people that quick unless they having godlike wisdom or they are just spam casting. Not to mention you just have to stratagize every guild has their strengths and weaknesses.
Are magickers immune to poison? I think not.
Are they capable in combat? I think not.
People focus and focus on magickers and really blow this kind of thing out of proportion.
Did he -kill- any of them? Just because he could keep them from killing him with that one spell by no means displays that -all- magickers can do so. In fact, most of them would've just died in that situation if they could not get away.
I'm pretty sure I know what one you're talking about. If so, you are sorely mistaken about how long that one had been played. I happen to know it had quite a few days of playing time on it -and- that also just happens to be the -one- type of magicker that specializes and excels in that area.
I also know of an 80 day rukkian that was two hit killed by a much much lesser played mul warrior as well.
I agree with this. But I don't see it as a problem with magickers. I see it as a problem with assassins.
By that way of thinking, if you live in an area that has alot of mekillots/silt horrors/bahamets/gith/halflings,etc then it's expected that you shouldn't -fear- them? I don't really get what point you're trying to make here, LoD.
No matter how often you come into contact with it, you should fear it because it -is- dangerous and potentially lethal to you.
Noone owns -every- damned cave and hidey hole in the game. In fact I quite agree with you that if a magicker is looking for a place to hide out it would make sense that they do not do so too close to other groups of people that may consider the area "their land". The problem is also that some people seem to overstep their bounds on what is considered "their land" in order to have excuses to go make contact with magickers and go magehunting.
If they're foolish enough to go attempt to hide out in a place that's quite obviously known to be a certain tribes land then they deserve it when -the tribe- gathers forces and attempts to do something about it. That still doesn't make it realistic for single tribe members to head for that cave and attempt to take on an abomination against nature that could possibly put a plague on their tribe.
I take no issue with a -tribe- or other -group- going to hunt down a mage that's too close to home. I do take issue with people going to take care of this dangerous being alone.
Just something to note - that is good and intentional. We want mages to get survivable and semi-powerful in a decently short time. The reason is so that they will spend less time powergaming and more time roleplaying. Yes, they have to practice their magick to get good, but it doesn't take too terribly much time to practice. Generally speaking, mages are karma or special-app roles, so we usually trust the player enough to let them get that kind of power fairly quickly.
And by "that kind of power" I mean survivably-powerful, not take-over-the-world powerful.
Perhaps I can make it more clear for you. Mekillots, Bahamets, and Silt Horrors are known dangers and predators that frequent specific and limited ranges of land. People know where they live, people know where not to travel. They respect that boundary, and the mekillots, bahamets, and silt horrors do not encroach into areas where they, themselves, would be killed - such as civilization centers or sprawling territories where they would be hunted.
You don't see bahamets in the tablelands, do you? If not, then that's case closed on your arguement. Magickers know no such boundaries and choose to move across commonly used and travelled hunting grounds, water sources, roads, and other such infrastructure.
If you aren't one of these magickers, then don't respond personally. However, just because YOU wouldn't float around the grasslands, tablelands, or roadways frequented by mundanes doesn't mean that all magickers don't. They do. And they are representative of the types of magickers people are speaking of here, who don't respect these boundaries and, thus, invite and warrant the often aggressive attention of the mundane populace they should hope to avoid.
I never said they did, but we both know that magickers DO sometimes use such areas that DO reside on tribal lands. It is to those people that I speak, not you personally. If you aren't one of them, then you shouldn't have anything to worry about as far as that point is concerned. It's important, however, for players to consider whether or not the area they're using to "hide" is in fact remote and unused. If not, they shouldn't be surprised if mundanes DO find them and DO try to do something about them being there.
I'm really tired of the 'magehunting' excuse out of you, jhunter. It comes out of your mouth every time one of these dicussions pops up. You seem completely unable to conceive of a reason why someone would want changes to made to the magicker role other than a very specific and twinkish agenda of "making them easier for my PC to kill." New flash, that ain't the main reason. Not even by a longshot.
Mundanes don't want to "magehunt", they want to interact with other mundanes and go about their lives without some invisible mystical mouth harassing them when they're just trying to RP out a nice hunt, or tryng to get to the next town. They want to RP with their peers instead of having some player with an inferiority complex show up with their mage expecting the mundane to grovel and their feet and beg for their life simply because they selected "g" on the character creation sheet. These are the very same people that have caused all this magehunting in the first place.
[rant]
Guess what, I don't hunt tigers. Know why? Because they don't come into my town. They don't try to attack my car while I'm driving to my job. They don't show up at restaurants while I'm eating my food. They stay away from people and people stay away from them -- and we both survive.
But if a tiger showed up at my doorstep, ready to fight and kill me. I would run. I would hide like a little girl and call the cops. The first time.
But after I survived that encounter, you can be damned sure I'm going to load up on protection against some mother fucking tigers. And if that bastard shows up again, I'm going to be ready and gonna do something about it because I'm only going to be afraid until that tiger FORCES me to be unafraid by coming around again, and again, and again.
It's no longer a rare and wondrous creature. It's a threat. A viable threat. And all of its wonder, and power, and mystery isn't going to mean crap when my "tiger patrol" goes riding around town specifically looking for tigers to kill. And we're gonna kill 'em. Every single one we see, whether it's someone's exotic pet or a special one-of-a-kind pacifist tiger that contains the holy spirit of an entire religion, it's freakin' toast. Because we can't tell and it's not worth finding out.
And we do this all because that first tiger couldn't leave well enough alone. They couldn't keep all their power, and strength, and speed, and lethal cunning to themselves and just enjoy being a tiger. No, they had to go out and fuck with people who had NO intention of ever hurting tigers in their entire lives.
So, you want someone to blame for people "magehunting" - look at the mages. Don't look at the people just trying to go about their daily lives, hunting food for dinner, travelling from city to city to make a sale, or going about their general mundane business. You want to be left alone, then leave them alone. It's really freakin' simple - but it's surprising how many people just can't manage to do it.
[/rant]
-LoD
Then perhaps they shouldn't complain about it when they do get slaughtered for attacking someone randomly because they're paranoid?
I'm in full agreement with you there. It's dumb for either side to complain OOCly about consequences of their own character's actions.
Amen. I do think there has been a disturbing amount of IC info revealed about magicker's capabilities, both what they can and what they can't do. I do feel bad for anyone that learned something new about magickers from this thread.
Do you know what ArmageddonMUD's Karma is?
It's a measure of trust, to trust that you will play the role as it is supposed to be played.
Invisibility can be such an awesome RP tool, too, especially when coupled with hemotes and semotes.
There's one mage in particular that comes to mind who could make invisibility a creepshow like no other. He's so good I thought he was an NPC at first because his emotes seemed to be so environmental.
A well-played mage, to me, gives me the OOC thought, "Wow, if I'm gonna have to lose X character, at least it'll hopefully be to this guy."
Too bad I never learned his PC's name and it was back when I was too new to understand how to give kudos. :( You were awesome, invisible guy.
I want to mention that I added to this thread despite your original post rather than because of it. I don't believe that the Imm Staff condone or prefer mages harassing, killing, or ruining the RP of the mundanes. They've simply mentioned that magick is a powerful force that should be respected. Mess with the bull and you'll get the horns, etc...
Magicker abuse on mundanes happens much less frequently than mundane on mundane abuse where people murder indiscriminantly, purposefully target LD characters, spam skills with little to no thought of their application in the gameworld, or act out completely unrealistic scenes that ignore VNPC or NPC components of the game.
The notion that people would receive karma based at all on how much they harass, kill, or meddle with other players is baseless and simply incorrect.
My aim was to put reasons behind the feelings that people are describing, as well as better communicate the true issue -- which is not because the playerbase hates magickers, but because there are other issues at play better represented in the thoughtful posts of others than by your borderline trolling commentary.
Be careful not to mistake paassion for anger, frustration for hate, or criticism for damning. They are none of those things.
-LoD
I wanted to respond to this: though I have never played a mage myself, it's dismaying to hear their branch curve is so much shorter than a non-karma class' curve will be. I understand that we want people to be able to spend more time roleplaying, but I don't see why this should be true only for mage classes and not for anyone else.
It sounds almost as if it's permissable for a mage to be able to branch One Hit Pwnage Superspell in 5 or 10 days so that they can spend less time powergaming, but it still takes an assassin 20 or 50 days to be able to get backstab up to any kind of comparable power level. Yes, one is a karma guild and one isn't, but some players with karma will play nonkarma guilds, and some players without karma will be playing mages through special app.
Why not have the time it takes to become decently survivable be more or less the same for every guild?
This is the problem some people are trying to get at. ...
Like i said i personally don't care how powerful they are and to be honest i've seen alot more magickers die to mundanes then the other way around. Its true that unless you really provoke one, you can usually get out of it alive. However magickers and magick are supposed to be feared and rare, once there secret is out they'll be in trouble. To me though its not only the fact that there are more players playing magickers (and rather openly i might add) but that there are alot more magick influences plots right now. Of course this might just be due to the current times of the game...you know the end of the world and all. :cry:
There is actually a third problem.
3. Magickers are too often forced into roles and environments that encourage and almost mandate negative, hostile, and often fatal interaction with mundanes.
Imagine a time before the Cataclysm. Tuluk and Allanak both tolerate magickers in their midst. They are allowed to rent property, have families, practice magicks in temples, be employed, and lawfully exist within either city-state.
Let's compare them to an ant farm. Occasionally one might escape and be found wandering on a kitchen corner, but for the most part they just go about their busienss quietly, keeping to themselves. There may be 100 of them, but they aren't constantly in your face. They have a home of their own, and little need or want of anyone else. If one were to ask them if they thought they had an "ant problem" they would say no.
Now someone goes and destroys the city, er...ant farm. Now the exact same number of ants are in existence, but they are all over the house. They're on countertops, eating jello, crawling in bedsheets, moving through the curtains, all over the cabinets...everywhere. They're in places they never were before (i.e. tablelands, tribal areas, etc...) and they are causing all kinds of grief.
Now, without increasing the number of ants by even one lowly critter, the very same owner of the house would likely say, "I have a HUGE ant problem!" The only thing that has changed was the distribution. Not the power. Not the number. The distribution.
This simple event has had an impact on the entire Known World. The distribution of magickers has soared in areas that used to hardly ever see them. People are being "affected" by magickers within cultures and parts of the game that never did before, and it creates the illusion of magickers crawling all over the woodwork.
If magickers were again contained, given their own space within society, and made part of the normal makeup of the gameworld, my guess is you would have an exponential decrease in complaints about them.
-LoD
Absolutely. That is why I'd like Rindan's idea from Reborn magicker thread taken to extreme, in effect of making magickers generally acceptable, without weakening them.
There is no chance that staff will deal with problems 1 and 2, as they have stated many times that there are no such problems at all. But I've not yet abandoned hope that they will direct magick into more constructive way, so magickers would have something else to do other then screwing mundanes.
My exact problem with 90% of magickers.
I like super powerful mages, but, as many others have stated, there are too many of them. Emoting pissing yourself and cowering gets old - really old - after the third time your character is involved in a super high magick RPT in which the city is nearly exploded and appoximately the fifteenth time of running into a spooky mysterious magicker. Maybe that is why people choose to draw and attack, spam walk away, or whatever reaction that always gets brought up when mundanes complain. Personally, I get pretty tired of roleplaying the secret mysteriousness and scariness of magick for the hundredth time...
Well, I sort of gathered from this thread, player experience, and staff opinion that this is not the case. But tomato, tomato, right?
I only ever play city bound characters. They are never buff and none of them can really tell one end of a sword from another. Even my shortest lived character goes way pass 10 days playing time (save the one character I had in Tuluk, but I retired her out of boredom), they often have sustained interaction with no less than 3 mages and sometimes a couple of psi.
It's definitely not because I go out of my way to look for them. As soon as my character uncover plots and gets involved... they would come looking for me. Occasionally, all I ever have to do sit solo rp with myself while crafting. It's really difficult to rp a mortal fear of a whiran when your character knew a sorcerer and a psi are just around the corner, oh, and a couple of drovians are stalking you at the same time.
I adore mages. I like that they are powerful. None of them are badly played, too. There are rarely any aggressive encounters even though we are oppositions. In fact, all of them are excellent roleplayers. But there are just so many of them. As someone already mentioned, they are all over the plots, so it's nigh on impossible to do anything without stumbling across them.
I don't think it's a matter of roleplay style, or maybe we should all stay away from plots, in which case nothing can really be done.
And I think Ghost is right. And LoD, too.
It's somewhat disturbing that this invisible magicker was in such an accessible location as to encounter not only you, but some random ranger waltzing through the area. I don't know the details or geography of where you were, but if the magicker (and yourself) were being careful about meeting, I doubt that situation would've happened.
Perhaps the person walking in thought you were going to be attacked and thought they'd help. Perhaps they'd been ganked by a magicker somewhere with their last character without an emotes. I know that has certainly happened to me, despite the arguement that karma breeds responsbile play. Or perhpas this guy was just a noob and thought, "Watch me wtfpwn this finger wiggler!".
I don't know the whole situation, but there is more "wrong" with that entire situation than the ranger's actions. Just as there is more wrong with the roles of magick in the present game than simply how mundane characters react and treat them.
I'm glad that Apocolyptic Cow caught onto the general issue I have with magick in the world, and hope that it's something which can be built upon in the forthcoming game. Magick is awesome. Magick should be rare and mysterious. And Magick should be woven into the framework of the game in such a way that its presence more often cooperates with mundane plots rather than trumps them.
It's also my hope that players exercise their own form of self restraint in special apping or consistently playing magicker characters, especially as a means of avoiding the time investment required to reach a modicum of survivability and/or power. I don't believe the changes made to mages that allow them to quickly gain their spells is necessarily the best move, especially their more lethal abilities.
I'd be much more in favor of seeing mages granted a much greater degree of survivability without the teeth. Give them ways to avoid, escape, or withstand mundane attacks without simultaneously granting them the aggressive tools to kill. Let those powers develop more slowly, and I think you will see just as quick a rate of return on mundanes not hunting mages.
Make mages require group coordination to take down not because they can kill you so quickly, but because you can't actually take them down by yourself. Then they wouldn't be worth attacking mindlessly because you nearly couldn't manage it alone. I'm not advocating mages be stripped of every offensive capability, but it might keep the folks away if the system was tweaked a bit in this direction as well.
-LoD
As many have said, interaction with magickers tends to be a problem only when the problem is caused by the mundane. Magicker characters are played by players that the staff has given some trust to. Mundanes are played by those same players...and the players that haven't gained enough trust with the staff for interacting as they should with the world (which means other PCs too) around them.
Read Halaster's post regarding this. I think it might help you understand why certain things are this way.
Just like there were too many d.elves in the game at one time? Half-elves? Pickpockets? Muls? Burglars spam stealing everything from rooms and taverns, including the couches. The list goes on and on.
Mages and their numbers will dwindle, just as the numbers of every other guild/race has in the past. Things are cyclic.
Can't we all just stop whining and play the game? Sheesh, there's only a few months of it left. Does it really fuckin' matter?
People aren't whining, they're discussing a pertinent topic regarding their perception of issues with magick in the current world and how it will translate over to the new game. They've expressed opinions and suggestions for how magick could be offered a better role within the framework of the game, along with a model change to allow some of the rarity and mystery back into the world.
If you don't have any constructive to add, you should really take your own advice.
-LoD
I believe I did add something constructive. It was something to the effect of "stop whining and just play the game, enjoy what little time we have left".
I'm done, bye bye.
The only thing is, meks are less common than scrabs and beetles.
I definitely agree with you on the point that it seems like you have to fight to get RPTs and plots that aren't even just magick-heavy, but magick-dominated-and-driven. Of course, the events related to the end of the world are probably going to be magick out the ass. I don't like that, but it's realistic for the setting and I trust the staff will at least try to make it fun for those of us who don't want to play magicker characters.
As someone who joined Arm over other games because I don't like high fantasy and I didn't want to run into mages around every corner, this has killed a large chunk of my interest in the game.
And this is coming from someone with a tendency to actively avoid magickal plots to begin with. It's one thing to say, "Well if you don't like mages, don't play in X location," but when mages are ridiculously prevalent in every corner of the map and they make up a large portion of the playerbase and eclipse or negate the role of mundanes in almost every plot you get involved in, it's far easier said than done.
Ditto
It isn't wanting to keep magickal encounters "to a minimum." It's just wanting to keep them to anything but "to a maximum."
All of the suggestions you have are good ones, but my point is that I didn't think the game's setting was designed so that my character's everyday life should include running from, attacking, 'hunting', being suspicious of, or panicking over mages. Because mages aren't supposed to be so prominent in every mundane character's daily routine.
To me, my PC's near-constant exposure to magick and the overall repetitive nature of many of my magickal encounters have cheapened what is supposed to be a rare, frightening, and interesting event.
That's like me saying, "I can't believe that some of you think magickal role-play is cool."
Which I'm not, by the way.
I'm not overexaggerating. However, it is a statement that is based on -our- 'green area' of where the magicker population should be. The staff is in charge, I'm not refuting that.
But some people like to see it less, some people are fine with more. To those who like to see it less, it will probably always seem like too much until a change comes around.
Isn't that kind of the whole point of why this discussion always goes on so long? People want it at different measures of prominence. I don't think it will change, since I've seen this thread come up countless times in eight years.
That doesn't mean I have no reason to share my personal viewpoint and share with people what my 'green area' consists of, though, does it?
The reason I think people have a problem with this IS due to how powerful magickers are. You NOTICE the magicker more because of the impact that magicker has. Magickers have more impact due to the abilities they posess and that the mundanes do not. That's the way it is, and I'd rather not see it change.
What I would like to see is more magickers giving explanation for what they do through something (an emote or a say as they start doing what they do), and this is VERY much directed at those that can accomplish invisibility or the equivalent. Most problems I have are when they just start casting from their hidden state without preamble. It's kind of hard to scare people away from your secret sanctuary unless you leave some survivors.
Oh, and Rindan, anecdotal evidence is NOT indicative of actual numbers. It's indicative of perceptions.
Armaddict, the same thing goes for you that I said to Nile. You may not be exaggerating the number of mages you meet, but you are discounting the number of mundanes you meet too.
Fathi, same thing too. They're not a maximum, like you claim they are. If they were a maximum, you'd be accosted by magickers every moment you're logged in. You ARE exaggerating, because you probably don't run across magickers more than 5% of the time you're logged in. Oh, and while your character is 'mundane' by nature of the fact that your character is not a magicker, but your character is by NO means mundane when you consider the fact that a mundane, run-of-the-mill person probably has only a few coins to rub together at one point and lives their life without EVER stepping outside the gates, without ever actually interacting directly with a noble or templar, or doing anything other than their tiny little job that you and I and the rest of the playerbase would find boring. Your character is exceptional because your character DOES rise above his/her situation and aspires to something big. When you aspire to something big, anything and everything could go wrong, including coming across magickers with similar or opposing goals.
This is exactly the problem!
The amount of magickers in the game shouldn't even be comparable to the amount of mundanes.
And to me, 'mundane' means 'not a magicker'. Please don't go around changing accepted terms for no good reason.
But I digress. If you counted all the mundanes and the magickers that you saw, even if you counted every hidden magicker as a mundane, you'd still get a ratio around, say, one mage for every six characters. If you do count the hidden magickers, you get one mage for every five (or even four) mundane characters. And these mundane characters include Bynners, templars, merchants and aides and far-away tribals.
That ratio is simply not good. It should be around one mage for every twelve or so mundane characters - if 60 people are on, then five magickers running around causing havoc should be enough.
If your ranger sees that there are magickers in the Grey Forest, he can hunt in the Scrub. But what happens if there are magickers in the Grey Forest, the Scrub, the Plains beyond, the North Road, the Red Desert, the Tablelands and the area around Luir's? You have to go somewhere, since this is a game after all.
There are too many magickers. This is most likely caused by the coming of Arm 2. I personally know that since the announcement came, I've stored my mundane mage-hater and started working on playing all the interesting types that I won't be able to play later (read: magickers).
And some people wonder why we're continually losing players. I believe an attitude like that contributes a lot to the somewhat common feeling of "why bother playing the last x months if they're gonna leave the game to rot while working on the new one?".
I believe this statement is a good summation, and I don't think that Larrath is wrong or alone in his decision. The gameworld has changed, and it is not likely to swing back.
The perceived effect? The familiar mundane atmosphere of 1.Arm is already in its final death throes.
Seeker
Read as: I can't stand the fact that there's a bunch of beings that are potentially more dangerous than mine, therefore there are too many magickers and I'm tired of running into them.
No offense intended at all but this is typical of the argument that I'm seeing about it. I honestly feel with all my heart that 75% of it is people's personal issues with magick itself, or frustration at both the gameworld and the code being against them just crushing magickers like they would other characters they might run into outside. Sort of a: Well, at least if they're mundanes proper rp doesn't require me to automatically be afraid of them and be on the "losing" end from the getgo and now should I choose to disregard it and jump them anyway, I'll likely lose because they are powerful enough to do something about it.
Magickers in no way trivialize the impact of mundanes, in fact mundanes have alot more opportunity to make an impact on the gameworld than magickers. More changes have been made to the gameworld due to the actions and efforts of mundane characters and mundane characters are hot -hated- or -feared- by all. (Real big hindrance if you want to make an impact on the gameworld.) They can work for and with those who have as much power if not more than most -any- magicker.
I know for a fact that I've had much more impact on the world as a whole with my mundane pcs than I have any magicker. I've also seen alot more changes in the gameworld brought about by mundanes than I've seen from any magicker.
Read: I'm jhunter and cannot comprehend a single reason why people would ever criticize magickers besides one singular idea that players don't ever want another player to be more powerful than them. Again.
Stop this. This line of thinking. This erroneous and stubborn grasp on issues that aren't being described. No one is saying they want to be able to KILL magickers. No one is saying that they have problems because magicker characters can become more powerful than their mundane character.
If you botherred to read and absorb even a scrap of what is being said, you would begin to understand that many mundane players feel as if they cannot participate in a given plot or quest without often being introduced to magickal participants. I can't believe that you honestly cannot see the permeation of magikers in the curent game, as you claim.
My last character played in Tuluk. I would see something magickal every RL week. -Every- RL week. Here are a few examples:
1. A magicker attacked a friend inside the city-state using their magicks.
2. A magicker ran through a grove where my character was chopping wood about 10 leagues out of the gate. And there was nothing subtle about his display of magickal power.
3. A magicker assaulted my employees in the grasslands.
4. A magicker approached us in the same grove, invisible, and demanded we leave because they were the "Protector of the grove."
5. An invisible magicker was spotted on the North Road.
6. A magicker was seen by my character moving through the grasslands with visible and full displays of magickal ability.
7. A templar organized no less than 3 hunts where magickers were physically seen and chased through the area.
I didn't go out of my way to find magickers. I didn't visit completely remote areas of the gameworld in hopes of finding them. I moved on roads between cities, across small sections of commonly travelled hunting grounds, and throughout the wilderness areas surrounding the sprawling city-states. And that was just what was witnessed by one character.
And did I ever attack one? No. Did I ever kill one? No. Did I ever chase one around by myself? No.
In a land where magicks are supposed to be rare and mysterious, they were anything but that. They were a consistent part of our weekly activities, and that is just my personal experience. It may vary, but I know that other players, even city-based characters, have had just as many or more experiences with magickers or psionicists.
For once, some people want to be part of a quest that doesn't involve some sorcerous master, minions of undead, legions of magickally influenced beasts, vampires, invisible voices, or any number of these magickal elements. When Imms use magickal characters to further these plot lines, it often dooms such a hope from the start. People seem to think that if it doesn't have shiny sparks, flames, or invisibility, that it's boring.
There are many of us that thoroughly enjoy the very mundane interplay surrounding governmental politics, econonmic struggle, martial conquest, terrirtorial disputes, and cultural/racial tension. When magick hangs thick enough to influence many of these, it becomes tiresome. It's similar to having that unwanted and obnoxious cousin following you and your friends around no matter how much you try to avoid him.
It's not because I want to kill magickers, and it's not because I don't want anyone more powerful than myself. There are plenty of mundane people far more powerful, whether by position or by ability, than my character. I don't NEED someone who can conjure magickal fire to present obstacles to my goals. What I want is to play amidst my peers and enjoy the challenges of a simple and mundane plan set in motion without some magickal element being used to drive it forward.
The issue is that magickal entities pushing many of the current plots in the game has seemingly become the standard rather than the exception. And that frustration is what you see come up on the boards from time to time. It has nothing to do with being able to kill magickers, or being killed by them in return -- but more simply, that they are involved at all.
-LoD
Did I reference those events as being indicative of the "major plots" in which magickers played a role? It should be clear by the text preceding the list of events that I was demonstrating how my character noticed the permeation of magick within the mundane portions of the game.
It's so difficult not to reply to your posts with the same patronizing, condescending, and insulting tone. However, I don't believe that style of writing is either productive or warranted, and while I cannot claim to always be innocent, I can only hope that you will consider this and refrain from using it in future posts.
I don't happen to believe that the same magickal agents and/or forces responsible for such events as the Cataclysm, destruction of Steinal, or the Dragon turning Zalanthas into the desert world it is today have even a remote interest in what much of the world does on a regular basis. Many of the plots people are speaking of aren't trying to change the world. They aren't even trying to change their given city/village.
I was just trying to complete mundane tasks around a city-state that is known to hate and hunt magickers, and I'd still run into them on a regular basis. I wasn't in the distant wilderness where magickers gather. I wasn't out looking for trouble in locations where I shouldn't have been -- in fact, that's what the magicker's were doing.
You can reference my previous posts for a detailed description of my arguements on how the current culture and code changes have affected the role of magick in the game, as well as why those changes have had a negative impact on the player's perception of magick in the gameworld. You'll find that my arguements do not deny that the world has always been affected at its highest level by magicks, nor do they call for an elimination of magick from plots that would obviously concern them.
There are improvements that could be made, and many of the complaints, frustrations, and fears regarding the role of magick and magickers in Arm 2 demonstrated in this thread are both pertinent and warranted. Consider the motive as well as the content, and you may come to different conclusions.
-LoD
Thanks for stooping to personal attacks LoD. Real conducive to discussion.
Note: I did specify 75%, not all, everyone, 100% or any such absurd thing. I am allowed to post my opinion and not be attacked for it thankyouverymuch.
What that means, since you seem to have an issue comprehending the viewpoints or opinions of anyone that disagrees with you on the subject and keep clinging to the stubborn and rather naive stance that "everyone is just being straight forward and none of the people posting such have an ulterior motive for chiming in agreement with something that will help to further their own goals", is that I -am- saying I believe some people who aren't actually experiencing such (since from my own personal experience I haven't seen -anything- like it) are exaggerating to help turn the game toward their own personal ideal of what it should be.
If you aren't one of these mundanes, then don't respond personally. However, just because YOU wouldn't run around the thornlands hideyholes, caves on the fringes of tablelands, or deep in the forests, or other ruins frequented by magickers doesn't mean that all mundanes don't. They do. And they are representative of the types of mundanes I am speaking of here, who don't respect these boundaries and, thus, invite and warrant the often aggressive attention of the magicker populace they should hope to avoid.
Does anyone else spot the irony here? :roll:
I apologize if you feel insulted, jhunter. It really wasn't my intention, and I agree that it isn't conducive to discussion. However, my beef is with the same arguement that rears its ugly head every time you respond to one of these threads. You don't address the issues people are bringing forward, instead you claim that everyone's arguements are a disguise for their true agenda -- a conspiracy to make "magehunting" easier.
I have a hard time believing that 3 out of 4 players criticize magick because they don't want anyone more powerful than their character and are tired of running into people that are. The mere existence of templars, nobles, and other authority figures already sets most PC's up to be inferior to a healthy supply of characters in the game.
Why would these 75% focus solely on magickers and not focus on these social authority figures who hold power and sway over their PC's? Why don't we see as many, "I hate templars." or "I hate nobles." threads if people are truly being motivated by their characters running into beings that are more powerful?
That's why I have trouble validating the arguement. It doesn't seem to hold up logically is all. It also seems that many people have commented that they don't mind magick, that they enjoy the magick of Armageddon, but enjoy what it brings to the game as a rare and myseterious component rather than a frequent and heavy handed plot driving tool. And I really have to agree with many of them based solely on my experiences.
Does it really seem more likely to you that the perception people have regarding magickers is based upon 3 out of 4 characters purposefully wandering the deep portions of the wilderness in order to hunt them down? Or is it more likely that the current game culture, especially in the northlands, provides far too few opportunities for non-violent interaction between the magicker and mundane character? I argue for the latter.
Mages cannot be common and feared in the way you argue they should be. Magick needs to be rare and mysterious in order to retain its sense of wonder, terror, and surprise. The current game does not appropriately reflect that rare and mysterious status, thus, many of the players are encountering problems when interacting with magickers. Some of them cannot seem to escape, despite being city-bound and purposefully trying to avoid magickal interaction.
It's my opinion that the Cataclysm and the alienation of magickers in the northlands was one of the worst things to happen to the game. There's nothing that can be done about that now, except to view and discuss the results and consider them when designing the new game. And that's what I hope results from all this.
-LoD
It holds up as a logical possibility when you take into account recent events in game. It also makes it very hard for me to believe when my personal experiences have been so far removed from what people are saying is so common. I mean, if it were really that bad...wouldn't I have seen some inkling of this myself? If it were truly that bad, wouldn't we agree on some middle ground rather than there being such a wide range and variance on our experiences regarding magick? This is what makes me believe that there is truly some exaggeration of the issue going on, whatever the reasons may be.
It does because my first several mage attempts ended with my mage pc killed in their very -first- encounter with a -single- mundane pc and my pc was not the aggressor. (In fact, I've never killed a pc with a magicker.) On the side of mundanes, several times I witnessed other mundanes chasing after mages by themselves and such. I've seen pcs acting poorly toward gemmed mages, showing zero fear or superstition toward them and even open hostility without fear of retaliation. It's a real sensitive subject to me when people talk as if mundanes are somehow getting the shaft. It's a real challenge to play a mage in this game, outlaw or gemmed for many different reasons that have nothing to do with how "powerful" you are. Even with all the potential for power, I still find the mages to be one of the most difficult things in the game to play.
Nice of you to assume things that I never said. I wonder where you got the idea that I'm playing exceptional characters... I think anyone who knows me well can agree that if there's one thing I don't do, it's play the kind of character that you described. Is it "bad" to:
Be in the Tablelands as a Soh elf?
Hunt in the grasslands as a Tuluki?
Go mining or salt grebbing as an Allanaki?
I've seen plenty of illegal magicks even inside the walls of Allanak. Almost every one of my characters have had to deal with it in some way or another - my current one especially is forced into a plot that is so obviously magickal all the way through, and it's just one example of how it (to me) is absolutely impossible to consider magick rare and mysterious. I'm not saying that magick shouldn't exist, but I am in absolute disagreement with those who say that it's not too blatant and common in the world. You don't need to roam the deep deserts or dark forests to see magick frequently.
If your character is getting involved in 'plot driven by magick', then he's most definitely doing something above and beyond what your truly average Zalanthan does in his/her life.
Sorry, but you kind of asked for it, since more than one person has already posted accounts of being about as normal as a PC can get and still interesting (especially that 'rinthi elf) and still encountering magick.
It may seem like the logical and productive path to simply blow off the entire discussion, but unfortunately, that's what the board is supposed to be for. If you don't want to see discussions, you're probably in the wrong place.
It is silly to say 'If your character does anything exceptional at all, you can't complain about magick.' Every PC is going to be exceptional. By this rational, it is completely okay for every PC ever to always be involved with magick. By that rational, magick would be widely less feared and awed over - which is about where we stand now, and neither side is happy. Some say 'Too many magickers!' and the others respond 'The real problem is that mundanes don't react properly!' The latter is caused by the former, or at least perpetuated.
That's like saying it's wrong to see plenty of templars in Allanak. You should expect to encounter a magicker or see magick at -least-(meaning barest minimum) once in the lifetime of -any- Allanaki character, IMO.
See, there's this place called the Elementalist's Quarter and these people (who are magickers) that are accepted in the city so long as they wear this little black gem. It's -in- Allanak. There's also these warrior priests known as templars that are pretty widely known to wield magick as well who live there too.
I'm simply stating my take on it, which is more or less adding to the discussion, right?
If every PC is exceptional, then I would probably expect to encounter other exceptional personalities.. magickers included. Across the known world, magick is rare. Compared to the population of NPCs and VNPCs, magick is rare. If there are 30 people online, and each is searching for some sort of worthwhile interaction, then chances are magick is going to come to you at one point or another.
I just don't buy the argument that because everyone one of your characters encounters magick at some point, it is somehow less rare.
I cannot even begin to respond to this. I'm not trying to be rude, but that is just silly. Of course if everyone encounters magick, it is less rare! We can all put on a surprised face every time magick comes by, but it's all going to be skin deep, half-hearted roleplaying if the players themselves are rolling their eyes.
They state illegal[/b] magicks in the first sentence, jhunter.
Gemmed magickers and templar magick aren't considered illegal.
That would mean they are referencing magickers that are not part of the accepted, tolerated, or widely used magickal peoples populating the city-state, but rather a subset of magickers that exist in addition to these people. In fact, their first sentence specifies "even in Allanak", meaning that Allanak is only one location in which they've witnessed these illegal magicks. The sarcasm doesn't help the situation either.
Referring to the comments that claim encountering the rare and mysterious should be expected because we are playing "exceptional" characters, I'm not sure that really works. To some degree, yes, a noble or templar probably has a higher chance of interacting with a magicker due to their position and authority. However, I had a character that followed a fairly strict regimen of hunting the same group of land, none of which was more than 10 leagues from a road or city wall, and still encountered quite a few magickers. Was that character "exceptional"? Not really. Their life seemed to be indicative of many of the VNPC and NPC hunters for the House.
The problem is that the documentation sets up an unrealistic expectation on the part of both players; magick and mundane. Operating under the assumption that our characters are "exceptional" creates issues by people beginning to play the "exception" to the rule. Magickers and mundanes both are emboldened. Magickers aren't being quite as careful as they should be, and neither are the mundanes. Does this "exceptional" play really help promote an environment that both sides want to see? I'm not sure that it does.
As many have mentioned, arguing what's been going on with 1.Arm in the last few months isn't really productive. There are many lessons to be learned from how magick has progressed through the game in the last 10 years. And it's good to discuss and debate how to use that information when making suggestions on how to create a better "environment" with rare and mysterious magicks in 2.Arm without completly removing the aspects of magick play that people enjoy.
-LoD
It is different because no one is expecting people to act surprised and impressed that their character isn't a beggar.
It isn't just one character. It's every single one of my characters, and it happens to some others too. Most of the encounters are within city walls. Here's a not so recent but isn't terribly old example that reflects an extremity in the argument, and actually it happened:
There are about eight characters in a well frequented tavern. Six of them are not mundane. All six of them are not gemmed.
So what?
It's all good and fun. But once it happens too often, the enjoyment diminishes.
I'm just going to note that the last sentence there seems exceptionally odd.
I'm very sorry, I thought I made it clear when I said "illegal magicks" that I wasn't referring to the legal gemmed magickers or the very legal templars. My apologies. By illegal I mean things that aren't allowed/expected such as magicker attacks in the Barrel, people getting hauled around by whirans, and strange creatures appearing for unnatural reasons.
I've seen more acts of hostile magick than I have seen murders committed between mundane people, across all my characters. Just saying, for no particular reason.
Being "exceptional" by Zalanthan standards shouldn't make exposure to magick any less rare or mysterious. That rarity and mystery should be defined by one's relation to entities or beings that deal with those entities. For example, a Lord Templar will probably have a high level of exposure to magicks while a Kadian Senior Agent stationed in Tuluk should have a fair chance at never being exposed.
Both roles are "exceptional" by your definition, but they don't inherently share the same potential for exposure to magick. Thus, when Senior Agent Kadius, and more importantly their player, does witness what they consider a high exposure to magick -- they provide feedback in threads like this by claiming magick isn't rare enough. You are claiming that every PC has an elevated chance of being exposed, and should simply accept whatever interaction they receive as "normal" or "standard".
They just don't agree, and neither do I. You know my reasons for why I feel the perception of magick in the gameworld is exaggerated. They may not be arguing the true problem, but the symptoms are much the same and to simply offer responses such as this which don't identify and bring the two ideas together just seems combative.
-LoD
I didn't say the majority, I said a large percentage. A large percentage could be 20-30%. A large percentage of Allanak's population are warriors by profession and clan affiliation. Are they exceptional? The entirety of this particular argument is pointless - I intentionally play characters who are very much the average Zalanthan. You're stating as a fact that the reason I'm seeing a lot of magickers is because I'm doing what I'm not supposed to do. Judge me more please...
No, I'm used to seeing magick in some form or another on a weekly (IC) basis. My characters are usually played for a period of time that roughly equals 10% of their virtual lifespan, on average. Going by your strange logic, my 20 year old character would see magick or be indirectly involved something like... 3-400 times during their 20 year lifespan.
Experiencing magick doesn't necessarily mean having a guy throw a fireball in your face. If I'm walking down the street and suddenly see a wall of sand, I've witnessed magick. If I'm involved in a plot where NPCs or vNPCs people are being killed by magickers, my character is experiencing magick too. If I'm out mining and a guy sweeps past me with stoneskin, energy shield and fly on, I'm also seeing magick. If my PC's best friend gets blown out of a tavern by violent winds while I'm sitting next to them, I sure as hell am having a close encounter with magick. Most of my characters are having similar experiences too frequently for me to consider it rare in any way.
That was actually an exaggaration, but it's easily once per RL week, and does not change my point or opinion.
That's Hymwen. She's modest. Sometimes some of us have magical stalkers that chat you up every day for weeks oocly (Or every ic week). When one of them dies, you get a period of calm, for a week or two, and then some other magic or psi starts again. They are most unrelated, random (I hope). Maybe off peakers see more mages?
For some people, six times a year doesn't sound like much. But how much does it have to be before it is too much? This line of argument doesn't go anywhere for me. Perhaps you will kindly agree that the very existence of this thread might suggest something?
Actually, let's make this a bit more meaningful. You're jumping from "seeing" or "encountering" to the equivalent of being attacked by magick.
Six times a year for "seeing" a car accident isn't much. I probably "see" more accidents in a year than just a mere six.
The problem is, what one person considers rare is not rare enough for another. It's just where I like it from my personal experiences. No more. No less.
Anyway, I'm totally sick of the magick-hating whining. I know for a -fact- that some of the people who have posted in the negative regarding the amount of magick, the power of magickers, etc -do- have their own personal issues with magickers and magick period. I know that a few of them recently lost pcs to magickers, I know that a few have lost cherished characters to magickal things in the past. I also know that some of them never spoke out this way until such happened. They can front it all they want but I know the truth as do a few others who are not bothering to waste as much time as I have with this thread.
I'm not flaming anyone or intending to flame anyone. But I'm not going to sit by and listen to the few who honestly are having an issue with experiencing too much magick be a stepping stone for those with personal agendas against magick/magickers to springboard from in the hopes of getting their way. At least be honest about shit people.
The staff is going to decide how it goes, some of us may like it and some of us may not but we've gotta deal with it or go play another fucking game if you don't like it that much, but seriously...stop the bitching and whining.
I'm out of this hypocritical mess.
Good day all.
Halaster and the other Imms have done a great job with the spell lists, at least from an asethetic standpoint.
Doubt it.
cry more.
The problem I think is that the creators of the game keep telling us that there's no problem and it's all in our head, yet the players, except for a few, keep wondering why there's so many non-mundane characters allowed in the game.. So as long as the creators tell us that it's all in our head, posting over and over that there's a problem won't do much..
Sarcasm is a pretty solid way to go, too.
I don't see this at all. In fact, wasn't there an appeal a little while ago for people to STOP making magikers over and over again? Unless I have missed it, I have not see anywhere in this thread a staff member saying "you are all wrong, there are not as many magikers as you think".
I think the biggest issue with the world being stuffed with magikers is that it makes it really hard to keep the same mindset. Seeing one magiker for the first time in your characters life is scary. Seeing three of the little fuckers in one god damn around Tuluk is silly.
I say this as a completely NOT rhetorical question, but what is a person to think when half of the people they run into in the wastes are magikers? This happened to me very recently, and it wasn't like I was sulking around dark dens of 3vil. I kept running into magikers either literally on the North road, or just off it in sight of the North road. After a while the awe and mystery wears off and your character can't go into shock because of the horrors he has seen. Instead, your character grumbles under his breath and tells his kank to hurry up and go faster.
This is the point where I am with my character. He has seen so many magikers in such a short time that it is stupid to play according to the documentation. It is more logical for him to suspect anyone who looks even a little out of place in the wastes of be a magiker because half of the time he will be right. Further, it is logical to avoid magikers like the plague, but to not get too terribly upset about it. You might as well treat magikers like a pack of Carru. They are something to be flee from, but after they are out of sight you go back to doing whatever it is you do and think nothing of it.
My concern really is not with 1.Arm. I'll chalk piles of magikers wandering the wastes along well used paths with obvious magikal effects to the end of the world. My real worry is that this same ridiculousnesses will be present in 2.Arm. Maybe the staff won't have karma in 2.Arm, but I REALLY hope that they start rejecting magiker applications on the grounds that there are too many active magikers.
So true....
However i honestly can't blame people for wanting to play character where they don't have to spend RL months of repetitive training only to risk instant death the moment they try to do anything interesting concerning their profession. Is it any wonder it is so insanely hard to find a -skilled- assassin? (of any guild).Anyways this is getting to close to derailment but would make an excellent new thread.
I think flurry is right though making mundanes more appealing to play is a solution or at least putting Magicker classes on par (training wise) with mundanes. I've seen two magickers attack someone in the Sanctuary in Tuluk, however i've never seen an attempt at an assassination anywhere in the city. The attempts i've heard about usually end grimly for the person attempting it.
I never understood why magicker interaction is considered more important than mundane interaction. It's not like mundanes don't have to spend literal days sparring, sneaking, stealing, shooting, etc. in order to get to be survivable.
And, the truth of the matter is that some (if not most, I hate to generalize) magicker DON'T use that as a venue for increased interaction. Personally, I'd rather see less encouragement to play magickers to try to balance the population to the docs.
The problem is that some people playing magickers have brought their magicker into a position where they feel powerful in under 10 playing days. When addressing a possible problem, you have to look at both ends of the spectrum. Your fire elementalist may have taken 2 years to become powerful, but someone's elkran may have taken only 2 RL months to become powerful enough to put a hurt on nearly any single mundane they encountered.
Simply because you haven't experienced it doesn't make it impossible. So, while I appreciate that you probably follow a path more closely aligned with how magickers should progress, there are many that advance much more quickly. It is generally those magickers to whom people are referring when they complain about the process being too easy.
-LoD
So far, staff says that whatever happens with magickers is 100% completely and purely intentional, so I see no reason to rename this thread.
In theory though, I think that amount of twinkery is proportional to the room left for abuse. If half-giants were as powerful as magickers, we'd have the same complaints for certain. But it didn't really happen because downsides of being a HG are reflected by the code, namely by their low agility and wisdom, while magicker's weakneses are virtual and can be ignored.
While there is always a chance that HG will chop veteran warrior in half with a single blow, it is safe to say that more often then not veteran will be able to hold long enough to beat HG with a sparring needle before that lucky blow comes.
No? I wouldn't be so sure.
The point Doppleganger was making is that all of the karma classes are governed by a system of checks and balances. Half-giants are strong, but notoriously stupid, kind, and curious. Muls are strong and smart, but 99% of them are born into captivity and are easily recognizeable at a distance for what they are. Desert elves are hardy and agile, but they are limited by a strict cultural code of conduct and a sense of tribal belonging.
Magickers are supposed to be policed by the environment. Sorcerers are supposed to be immediately hated/hunted by everyone that notices them, but what should be the most prominent threats are usually represented by virtual entities (i.e. tribes, sorcerer-kings, other highly magickal beings) or NPC's. Elementalists are supposed to be hated/hunted, but several players know how to avoid detection by their fellow players; renting aparments, casting sporadically, and being patient as their magicker reaches a level of proficiency which allows them to interact with the playerbase at a stage capable of handling themselves.
The "checks and balances" for magickers are largely virtual when you actually consider what forces in the world are keeping them in check. Players -might- happen upon them if they are careless or sloppy, but they were given more "teeth" now, and several magickers are capable of holding their own long enough to flee. Magickers that are but a few playing days old have the potential to branch spells that are capable of not only holding their own, but swiftly overcoming mundane threats.
No other class/guild in the game has the ability to take a sufficient supply of food/water, retreat to a remote portion of the gameworld, and become as powerful as either an elementalist or sorcerer. In fact, most would consider it "cheesy" or "twinkish" if the other classes did the exact same thing. That's what's unfortunate about the system in my mind.
Things I would like to see change with magickers:
1. Initial defensive abilities increased.
2. Initial and early offensive abilities decreased.
3. Provided more outlets for non-violent social interaction with mundanes.
4. Rate of learning decreased.
5. Total number of magick/psionic PC's in game slightly decreased.
6. Magickal combat, in general, slowed down.
Who knows what will be the outcome in the new game, but those things would probably help to make magick a more rare and mysterious part of the gameworld again, both because of the slow skill progression, and the shift in culture where mundane encounters with magickers are no longer mandated as fearful, violent, and often lethal affairs.
-LoD
There isn't any contradiction here, not at all.
First of all, magickers are much more vulnerable than most people realize - even the powerful ones. The thing is that while magickers will take the time and effort to plan and prepare for their encounters, most people attacking them will just run in and kill. This is why they're blasted away - and even then not always.
If a mundane character prepares properly before they go out to hunt a magicker, they stand a *very* good chance of winning provided they do just a slight bit of research; checking what that magicker's particular strengths and weaknesses are, for instance.
Secondly, going prepared against a magicker usually also means not going on your own. One mundane against a magicker is a battle that will end very quickly, one way or the other. Two mundanes against one magicker is a battle that almost always ends with the magicker dying.
Plan and research. If you use a bit of strategy, it's far from impossible to kill even the most powerful magickers. If the magicker you're going up against is capable of landing crushing blows, use ranged weapons. If they have a powerful defense, find a way around it. If they're stealthy, out-maneuver them and find their hiding place.
A 5+ karma character with over 25 days played isn't supposed to be killed with one bash and four good hits, sorry. You're just going to have to work harder, just like the magickers themselves do in order to keep alive. Magickers that don't know how to be careful tend to die very quickly.
And finally, to add to the list of 'virtual' problems magickers have to deal with:
1 - generally being unable to live in a safe city.
2 - other magickers.
3 - finding a safe shelter, especially early on.
4 - getting food and water.
5 - getting lost in sandstorms.
6 - a few specific NPCs.
7 - gemmed elementalists.
8 - twinky guild-sniffers.
9 - extreme lack of interaction; try that one for three RL months.
You'd be surprised just how difficult it is to "make a magicker and sit in a cave until you're super-powerful". Twinks will be twinks and some people don't mind idling in a cave with a bot (or whatever) to practice their spells, but generally speaking it's not nearly as easy as people think.
I'd imagine that at least two thirds of all magickers die before they can attain any sort of power or significance. That's a lot.
I'll say it.
Warriors have positive balance in fighting magickers.
Want to know how? It's just one word.
Subdue.
/thread
Bullshit.
I have seen more "powerful" people killed by a newbie half-giant than anything else. A half-giant right out of the box is far more deadly than any mage out of the box. Another thing I'd like to point out, some of the mages are incapable of killing another pc without help for several days of playing time. They simply have -zero- offensive capability.
*touches his finger to his nose*
If you've got it in your head that you want to kill X PC, then you're already betting your character's life.
Beyond getting the jump on a PC, having a respectable subdue skill is a hell of a thing to have in your arsenal.
Let's cut it down to simple "yes" or "no" question. Is mundane Half-Giant more appealing for powerseeker then human Krathi or Rukkian?
I will trust your word, and if the answer is "yes", I will never say a word on magickers again. Not a big sacrifice on my part, since everything is said already, so go ahead and shut me up.
If I were a powerseeker, yes. If I were the type of person to go get instant gratification, to go out and kill someone who had just killed my pc (a stretch into OOC twinkyland) you'd better believe I'd go app a hg warrior, choose str as my primary stat and bust a subdue/kill on their ass.
Disclaimer: I'm not saying that I would do such a thing nor am I condoning doing such a thing.
What is this "if" condition about? If you start your reply with "bullshit", I'd expect you to be brave and firm when stating your own opinion. Unless, of course, the "bullshit" word was a quick preview to what you are going to say next.
What about long term gratification, or is ability to pursue long term goals reserved for stellar roleplayers alone? I've asked you about powerseekers, but I didn't expect you to enlighten me about mindset of imbecilles who are mentally too weak to keep their characters alive and thus are concerned about first few days balance.
As much as I surprised with your outlook on what power is, I have to trust your opinion as promised. Though I still believe that you should have started your last post with something like
Seriously.
Is there any point to this post other than to argue for the sake of arguing and trying to be insulting?
Needs more cowbell.
Done.
Seconded. Possibly Thirded.
Restraint being the important word in this post. Karma classes are Karma classes because they can kill in an instant. With great power comes great responsibility.
It appears of late the responsibility aspect has been tossed out the window, on many fronts.
Thirded, I find it irresponsible, when people rush in with their marcos flaring, and kill
anything in under 1 second. I have done it before and I guess it is probably Karma, but I
have stopped because it doesnt make the game fun for anything.
I do believe however, that people are powergaming more now than they would be if they
knew the entirety of the staff was watching the game. BUT MY MAIN Gripe...About
Magickers is that it is ok for them to spam cast if they want, but the moment a Mundane
spams bash, kick, disarm, training, etc. they are shunned and lose karma. I think that is BS
but I am just a player not an Admin.
That staff has said a few times that is not the reason for them being karma classes. It might be the reason for some but for some it is the fact that they are very difficult to play correctly.
Where in the hell does this misrepresentation come from that "all magickers can kill in an instant with a single spell" ? That is just simply not true for alot of them. Maybe at the highest ends of learning it is, but not on the average.
I believe Halaster and other staff members have said that this is intentional.
I didn't make that character to become powerful, I did it to see if it was possible. I'm not playing the character any further and I consider it an experiment, so while I do know that "twinking" like that isn't a good thing, it's not like I'm doing it so that I can kill a lot of people.
To me, it's not a question of "should you do it", it's a question of "can you do it", and the answer is obviously a big fat YES. Would you feel comfortable knowing that assassins can max backstab in 5 days (not saying they can) just because you know that they shouldn't do it?
I could have advanced that character even faster if I had done nothing but spam-casting the whole time, which wasn't the case. Your mage is apparently played more or less the intended way, and you don't sound like the type who is just interested in becoming deadly and winning the game. Some players are. In fact I think quite a few players are, judging by what I've seen through my whole time playing Armageddon. There will always be players to whom the most important thing is being able to defeat others, and it's it's not difficult to get to play a magicker. The character you saw was the 2-karma kind of magicker, not something you have to play nicely for 4 years to be granted. By those 2 days, I could survive lengthy combat (not kill, because I still hadn't developed my offensive spells) against creatures that I think most mundanes would consider quite dangerous, probably even for a 10 day warrior or ranger.
I'll say it again. Magickers should be powerful, they should be dangerous and people should have reasons to fear them. But it should not be so ridiculously easy to reach that, because it's the biggest twink magnet I've ever seen. If the way I played my magicker isn't how it's intended (I know it's not), then why is it still possible to advance so insanely fast? I branched before the twelve hour mark! Why is that window for powergaming and abuse wide open and only hindered if an imm is actively watching your boring cave-sitting ass for a good while? I bet the imms have more important things to do than make sure all the magickers are playing nice, I know I sure as hell wouldn't waste my time checking up on hermit mages all over the world because that has got to be the most tedious chore.
Why is the character type that is arguably the one most known for causing havoc and twinking also the one that most easily attains the ability to do so? There are no other characters who can progress through power at such a sickeningly fast rate, with such utter ease and little risk, and that's what I want to do everything I can to change. Apparently it took a real, played-out example to even get people to believe that it was possible.
So again, it's not a matter of whether or not you should do it, because of course you shouldn't. The problem is that you can, and some people do.
Memorable as a player, or as an Imm? I remember several mages from many years ago such as Ra, Dalaran, Gerrol, Shoka, Alkyone, Samah, Krysta, but I can't say that I can recall even one that had the same impact on me as a player in recent years. What is memorable to me over the recent years are the faceless mages that dash along the north road, run through a grove six leagues from a major city-state that hates them all glowy and sparkly, or dragging people with their magicks through the city streets.
That isn't to say that there haven't been any well-played mages, in fact there have probably been several. However, those aren't the ones most commonly felt by the players, IMO. The 2-day spammers are the most memorable for them. The ones that seemingly ignore the dangers of being discovered, lurking contently outside of NPC range from major civilization centers, that end up hiding, time after time, within a city-state that hates and hunts them. Or sorcerers that crawl through the labyrinth figuring as long as they have barrier on, the several mega-powerful beings in the gameworld that would crush them in an instant due to their potential won't notice them.
I agree that the best mages are those that maintain a sense of rarity and mystery through the patience and caution apparent in their careful and thoughtful character development. Why the people who are seemingly incapable of this and strive simply to grow as powerful as they can, as quickly as they can, are allowed to play mages is beyond me. It is especially amusing to witness mages that probably consider themselves good role-players spam-sifting spice or moving through other mundane tasks without even the slightest of interest in creating a good scene.
That behavior is indicative of someone who is more interested in the destination than the journey. And the world would be a better place without those people playing magickers.
-LoD
Magickers causing havoc and being "troublesome" is part of the design of the gameworld. It doesn't mean that is actually what is going on -most- of the time. Most magickers I've played and played with only want to live and be left alone, any trouble with mundanes was brought on by the mundanes themselves.
Actually, the most twinking I've ever seen in the game was with crafting skills and not with spellcasting. Besides the fact that magicker players -are- watched by the staff and those who are caught twinking usually are given a warning to rein it in or have their options removed.
You seem to be under the misconception that -most- of the magickers out there are causing trouble with others and their players are all doing as you did with your mage. This is just simply not true.
Well-noted, good sir. Damned correct, too.
Twinky crafting does not severely affect other players in the same way magick can. You can't craft someone to death or completely defy the documentation by producing jewelry.
No, I'm under no misconceptions. I never said those words that you're putting in my mouth. However, it's no secret that some do it, and the very core of the problem is that you can do it. I hope I don't have to say it any more times.
Actually, Shoka, her example proves that it is possible for one of the most powerful classes in the game to generate a fair amount of power within a very short amount of time. She's making the point that this model is a magnet for exactly the wrong type of player.
Consider for a moment that the entire northern part of the game is a gigantic rogue magicker playground. Filled with hidey holes, water sources, food items, and plenty of NPC targets, it is an environment ripe for abuse. The very culture of the game encourages mages to live in relative solitude for fear of being killed. At least, until they are able to defend themselves -- when players probably rationalize "now I can start playing my character without worrying about being killed".
Does this happen all the time? Of course not. Is it the norm? I doubt it. However, the problem is that the people that do follow this model are the same ones causing the perception of magick in the game to rise. Whenever you see a thread like this pop up, you should realize that what Hymwen is demonstrating is part of the issue.
Hymwen's point, and mine as well, is that no class in the game should have the potential to rise so swiftly and easily in coded power without a system of checks and balances. In fact, my contention is that magickers should take the most time to become powerful because of their potential. This is not the case, and obviously a good deal of the "wrong" type of mages get through the nets.
There is merit to Hymwen's experiment, if only to convince the naysayers of what is possible rather than probably. Some, like her and myself, consider it to be a problem. Do you think that murdering someone shouldn't be against the law simply because you haven't ever done it? Or is it something worth policing because of the people that do?
That's the type of situation Hymwen is describing.
-LoD
Both, but I mostly meant as a player.
I wholeheartedly agree. Any lifting of karma restrictions just because the game is ending (or a new one starting) is a very bad idea (IMO) and is the single biggest cause of the degredation of the game that is currently being experienced.
I am all about mages being powerful and having great power, yadda yadda. But I also wish they were rarer than currently being experienced. I guess people are playing them more, and being allowed to play them more, because the End is Nigh. The obvious, unfortunate side effect of this is that it makes them no longer rare and totally throws things out of whack.
My personal opinion is that it should be harder to get the karma/approval to play them than it is, so that they remain rare, despite the fact that the game will soon end. I hate knowing that the "last days" will be tainted by a vast swarm of people playing mages who shouldn't be.
Therein lies the flaw of your experiment. You set out with an established, inherent bias that would drive you to twink as much as possible to prove a point on the general discussion board of ArmageddonMUD so that you could win an argument on the internet. *eyeroll*
We make characters on this mud to roleplay and tell a story. I am stunned that you are "quitting" after "proving your point". I find that highly discouraging as a player and rude to those who know your pc. (And yes, I DO know your pc, and I DO find that rude).
Some people twink on rangers, warriors, burglars, pickpockets, hell even MERCHANTS.
Twinking happens. If you witness it, mail the mud. If you're doing it, stop. If you think mages are too powerful compared to mundane classes, then Halaster and the other staff who have tinkered with them have completed what they set out to do.
In restrospect, it's kind of an interesting situation that developed with this kind of thing. Long ago, it became evident mages were lame and weak. So, a decision was made to change that, and so it became fairly easy for them to get a moderate amount of power to survive fairly quick. This was done during the time when mages were rare so that was OK. I think we (myself being one of the main ones) didn't really totally think how that might look if they became considerably more commonplace.
In other words, the entire magick system and method of mages achieving power was completely, totally intentional. We meant for them to be able to branch quickly. But it was a system designed and intended for people who were uncommon at best if not outright rare. It didn't accomodate for large numbers, nor was never meant to be that way. They were made powerful because they were rare.
So, Laura, I think that at least meshes the seemingly conflicting ideas?
You can't defy the documentation by practicing magick either.
I never stated that you said it. What I -am- saying is that by your terminology, by how you're presenting your posts, it appears that is what you believe. It's no secret that people of any guild can twink out their skills and powergame. They usually do not keep any karma options for long or get any period.
Hymwen's rise to power as an experiment to lend a concise and accurate accounting of how the mage model works is exponentially better than the players who are swiftly rising to power to twink it out.
We do play characters on this MUD to roleplay and tell a story, but the extent to which Hymwen has gone to provide herself, and others, with factual support to her claim only goes to show how much this subject is affecting people. I grow weary of those players who defend magick for magick's sake clinging to the scraps of Imm snippets that support their arguement that "everything is working as the Imm's intended."
The Imms are referring to the magicker model, not to the current state of magickers in the game. Hymwen is outlining part of the problem, which is that the magicker model is attractive to twink players. Not only that, but it rewards them far more quickly and easily than any mundane class ever could -- and they don't even need to interact with anyone to do it.
The other part of the issue lies with Halaster's most recent comment regarding the rarity and mystery of mages being all by gone from the game as a result of both lax karma restrictions and the end of the game. It is irresponsible of us, as players, to simply accept the gameworld for what it is and keep our mouths shut when we are experiencing gameplay that runs counter to the documentation, away from the spirit of the game, and detracts from the world most of us fell in love with.
Don't attack Hymwen because she's been forced to these extremes. Instead, allow yourself to view the reasons behind the action and understand what is driving someone who is clearly passionate about the game to do these things. Is it because the game is running smoothly and the system (not the classes) are balanced? Or is it because there might be issues worth debating, worth reviewing, and, perhaps, worth addressing.
I actually find it rather sad that this entire issue has been allowed to go so far that players are recognizing and spending time addressing the game's faults rather than enjoying the game's many successes.
If you cannot see past the experiment for the reasons behind it, then you should perhaps consider that and what it means.
-LoD
Am I the only one that finds these statements disturbing? Dude, what she did was WRONG, if not worse than the asshole twinks who do misuse the code to gain power.
What?! Are you kidding me? We do NOT make pcs on this game to play experiments and prove fucking points on the damned gdb, a DISCUSSION board on the fuckin' internet. This isn't debate class, or the senate floor, it's an online gaming community. Let the immortals pass out information in how easy it is to branch 'x' class, not some player. You guys and your arguments are getting rediculous.
Alright, I've had enough of this shit. You've had beef against magickers ever since you lost your buff warrior to one. It's time to grow the fuck up and stop harassing us players who don't twink. I've watched you make similar posts for a couple years now, and I've had enough of this. No one is clinging to "snippets" from immortal dialogue to support their argument, you make it sound as if we're trying to hold onto the last vestige of something, whatever that may be, I just don't know. You've held a particularly nasty bias towards magickers and their players, and your arguments have been detrimental to this community as a whole, for your posts alone cause others to gravitate around you due to your longlived pc's. They see "omfg lolz LoD posted he must be right" and jump on your fucking bandwagon, whether you're right or wrong, or even post concise and well thoughtout arguments (which in this case you haven't - I don't consider making accusations of "clinging to support" a very strong statement that proves any point whatsoever).
If you grow weary of us, then I am most certainly growing fucking weary with you and your holier than thou attitude. You have no idea what you speak of, yet you present yourself as the champion of the "mundane" players, the fallen pariah whom has risen from the ashes to lead his acolytes to glory and victory on the damned general discussion board.
I'm done. This is bullshit. It's annoying and making my bloodpressure rise just thinking about it. I'm going to the fuckin' gun-range this afternoon - maybe I'll go blow the fuck out of some snakes or something.
The sad part is that the "End" is not even near.. There's what, at least 6 months left now before the game ends? And there's probably going to be a few more complications, so let's just say 9 months just to play it safe..
So does that mean that the few of us who decided to stick with the mud because we were promised that we wouldn't regret it and great things would happen and it'd be exciting times to live in will now be stuck in a degrading mud where restrictions are pulled away and all the admins are busy elsewhere building the new mud instead of keeping the system in check?
It'd be comforting if Halaster was still part of the administration, yes... Now this comes from the guy who was probably the only one left trying to convince us that everything was going as planned and there wasn't too many or too few magickers :?
I said that, too, a few months ago, but everyone skipped over it.. Come on, we all know that at least 99% of the players that play magickers will stat prioritize wisdom.. It's THE stat you need, and more than half the time, you'll never get anything less than pretty freakin' good wisdom that way.
Another difference between warriors and magickers is that magickers only really need one stat to give them a major bonus in their class and that bonus is quite easy to gain.
A warrior probably needs more than decent strength, agility and endurance if they want a good starting boost, and on top of that, a good wisdom certainly doesn't hurt, but that's much more difficult to achieve than just getting one exceptional stat.
And don't forget to take your medicine while you're at it, too, Forest Junkie.
Thank you for making me feel better in work today. I was having a irritating day but to see somebody blow their top so spectacularly in a rant like that just cheered me up no end. I don't agree with it at all but it was hilarious to read nonetheless.
If cursing and bolding words in stentences to help make your point is a measure of maturity, then I'm sorry to disappoint. I've been frustrated with magickers in game far before I ever lost a "buff warrior" to one, which was actually to an NPC, and doesn't even really have a bearing on this particular conversation. Assumptions aren't going to win you arguements, which is what this entire thread is about -- someone's "hate" for magickers in the game. A thread, you'll notice, that I didn't start.
If you've assumed all of these things about me, that's your problem. I never claimed to be a champion of anything. However, I do happen to use past experience, supported points, valid arguements, and a logical analysis of the situation to formulate my opinion. I'm sorry it doesn't agree with yours, but that isn't a reason to curse and call people names. Other people on the forums disagree with me, but they seem plenty capable of making constructive posts that address my arguements instead of me, the player.
In fact, the entire idea of civil conversation frustrating you to the point of running to a "gun range" to shoot helpless animals doesn't do much for your own credibility as a mature and rationale person. So you can understand when someone might take your comments, which have nothing to do with the conversation and everything to do with attacking people personally, with a grain of salt.
None of my comments are meant to change the way magickers progress through their spell tiers, but to place some attention on the fact that several factors are contributing to a degradation in gameplay due to the proliferation of magickers. And while I agree that it's ideal for someone to assume a role with the full intention of playing out the character, I'd rather have 10 Hymwen magickers quietly testing things in the background than 1 twink magicker aggressively causing trouble.
-LoD
I would be insanely upset and worried if it was possible to make an assassin, and within two days, progress my skills to the point where I could kill with one backstab, and had high enough sneak/hide to backstab past your average NPC guard. But for some reason, it takes a mundane character about 15 days to max out and branch their tier 1 skills, while a mage can branch her tier 1 spells in about one day?
Here's my take on things, what I think is the formula for the problems we're seeing lately:
1) Game is ending... sometime vaguely soon. Everyone is rushing to play all the guilds now before things end. More mages, mindbenders, sorcs, etc.
2) People are also applying for special applications for guilds above their karma level in higher numbers. I wonder if there's a difference between how many are being accepted lately vs. how many used to be accepted. My hypothesis would be yes.
3) Mages, as Halaster said, were designed to hit lots of power faster than normal, because they were intended to be a small, controlled segment of the population played by responsible players.
4) Because if 1 and 2, the mage population is no longer as small or as controlled, and inevitably that means there will be more irresponsible mages. Unfortunately these mages are still being allowed to progress the same way they did under the old standard.
I think this is a sad thing all around. Not only is magick becoming less rare and mysterious, we're losing mundane characters that would normally be playing in the cities in favor of mage characters who can frolic around the deserts, or hide out in the rinth or Red Storm. I guess that's great if you enjoy playing in those places. As a mostly city-based player it's hard for me to adjust that the central areas that were once the focus of the game now seem like the boring safespots hidden away from Super Magicky Dangerland everywhere else.
One last thing... I feel like this debate is starting to attack the messenger and not the message. Hymwen gets called a twink for showing she can double her spell list in two days without even spending her whole time spamming. People flame LoD, and flame the rest of us for agreeing with him, as if that invalidates everything we say. I guess if you REALLY like mages that much that you so vehemently want to resist anything that might change them, go ahead. For my part, I wish they were far less prominent right now.
I think some people are misunderstanding a little. I don't want things to get any worse for those who play what I and others consider responsible magickers. It's the fact that doing the opposite is very rewarding that bothers me.
Funny thing is that I'm being called a twink for advancing a character so fast, yet some of the same people are telling me that the system should work like that. If you didn't play that way and you know that it's wrong to do, why do you care if I want it changed? If you did (ab)use the ridiculously fast skill progression of magickers to your advantage, then you can hardly call others a twink for doing so.
That's not targeted at anyone specific, I just find the whole thing odd.
By making characters with OOC aims, like experimenting, or proving points on the discussion board, you're contributing to the problem. We don't need more empty PCs, that's one of the core problems this thread is struggling to fix. Why not help the situation, create a character who isn't what this thread is denouncing, and inject some life into it?
That is awesome. There are definitely well played mages and I am glad you are confirming it. The problem is, people weren't believing that this kind of skill progression was possible, however obvious it may have been to you (see a few pages back in the thread) and Hymwen has demonstrated proof of this fact.
She's not contributing to the problem, she's contributing data about the magicker template for us to ponder. Why is this bad? Discussion is an exchange of knowledge. Don't hate, assimilate.
And then, out of the few PCs left there, you have to wonder how many of them are just rogue magickers trying to pass for mundane characters.. :?
At some point, with my previous character there, I was even willing to start accepting the fact that some of his friends might be rogue magickers, because I was really running out of mundane characters to interact with..
More than ten pages ago, I used to be in this thread and give examples of what I have seen/witnessed. And people refused to believe that, saying that I have to play one and see I am wrong.
Apperantly I was right. Apperantly it was that obvious, and refusing it so blantly was disturbing enough that a proof to the point of sticking it into the eye was required. And still we hear "Oh shit I bet you had AI wisdom." 1000 sids say she did not have AI wisdom.
P.S: Hello, I am back in the thread by the way. Not for long though.
Yep, pretty much anymore in Tuluk it goes like this:
-- Meet new character. Yay, this is rare, we only see a couple new people per RL week anymore, cool fun new friend maybe!
-- Look at new character. Uh-oh. Character is dressed all in newbie clothes and has no tattoos. This is a red flag either for "totally new to the MUD and has no idea what they're doing, but read enough of the docs to know that assassins are kewl in Tuluk" or "rogue magicker."
-- Ask new character about their life story. Confirm that they "grew up around here and there and always kind of drifted." Yep, rogue magicker.
-- Decide that if your character likes this new character, we'll just OOCly ignore any hints of magickerness that might come up, even though I've seen it so damn often it's like getting hit with a wooden plank between the eyes.
-- And after all that, probably never see new rogue magicker friend anymore anyways, because they've either died in the wilderness or gone and found some rogue magicker buddies or something.
There is, very honestly, an ennui that is setting in on me over this whole issue. I can neither OOCly nor ICly maintain the belief that magick is rare, nor maintain consistent fear, when my interaction with non-mundane aspects of the gameworld is so constant. (And by constant I mean "at each and every login.") My character probably should have died of fear-adrenaline overload a long time ago, but instead I think we're both just becoming desensitized to it.
Why does it bother you if power seeking/powergaming is not what you do? If the level of power and how easy it is to attain is not a reason for you to play magicker, why do you even care if people are saying they should not attain so much skills/spells/powers in such a short time?
If a 30 day magicker can come up with 30 different ideas of how easily killing my 50 day mundane character, it is fine. But I WISH it would take 30 days of playtime for a magicker to be considered dangerous enough.
Because the Staff isn't exactly telling us what's up, actually.. At first, the two that were part of this discussion were telling us that everything was working as it should be, but if you read the last five pages, now they are telling us that maybe something is not working as it should and that it might affect the quality of the mud and the way we should see magickers, as per the documentation.
The problem is that by making progression harder you make it harder to just survive. As a gemmer, you aren't useful to anyone to support yourself until a certain point. As a rogue magicker, you are unable to keep from being killed by the first npc, pc, weather, or whatever else until you reach a certain point.
It's hard enough as it is if you are playing realistically. I don't want to see it become harder just to survive even. Making it harder to become powerful to stop the twinks will also result in making it harder to even survive for those who did not twink out their skills. That's why.
If you want to cut down the time it takes to become truly powerful you need to make them more powerful to begin with in order for them to have a decent chance of survival.
That is only true if you are a clueless new guy on his first magicker or so.. The problem is that by making it easier for the few people that are playing a magicker for the first time, it also makes it a hell lot easier for the twenty other characters that are on their 10+ magickers and know exactly where to go, where to find fruits popping out of nowhere every 20 minutes or so, a source of infinite water, where to hide, etc.. It also makes it a lot easier for those who knows exactly what to branch and what spells to focus on to get powerful really quickly..
Another problem is that if a magicker dies, he's often going to come back as another magicker, except this time he'll know exactly what spells to go for and which not to waste time on.. So just as more people are getting karma, more people are learning how to play their magickers and what makes them strong and what to avoid..
False, if you are playing realistically and are not going to the same damned places with every pc and actually making them a different pc this is totally not true. You don't have to be a newbie to magickers for them to be difficult. You just have to stop rewriting the same pc with a few changes. Make an actual character.
Because I don't do it. I don't want to see it made harder to progress and go back to the days of every mage being forced to hide out from the public LONGER to keep the first newbie warrior with no concept that he shoud FEAR magick from killing my pc.
All this is going to accomplish (to prevent the -possibility- of a -few- people from doing it) is force those who aren't doing it to hide out LONGER and create LESS interaction with the end result being EXACTLY THE SAME.
No, I'm arguing that it's fine as it is. I never said make it LESS harsh than it -currently- is. It doesn't need to be made more difficult (for the rest of us) because the problem isn't as bad as some people are making it out to be, influenced by their own personal biases.
I can name three magicker types that can sustain themselves (in terms of nourishment) right out of the box. Another two more, I can name for avoiding danger again right out of the box. Is it risky? Yes. So is for every other ranger/merchant/warrior...etc character. If you are living in the wastes, risk is what you are taking anyway.
Aside from all these, there are so easy ways to earn coins to survive, it is not even funny. All it takes is, for you to be secret at what you do, and keep making coins, buying food/water if you are in the wastes. So it is not impossible. It is realistic in the way of considering it highly dangerous to survive Zalanthan wastes. Code should not be tweaked for any type of character to make it easier for them.
If a majority of the magickers were played realistically and never went back to the same spots they always go to, then we wouldn't be having this discussion to begin with. And if it was realistic by the documentation, that magickers are RARE, that'd solve another problem.
But to be fair, I'm also going to admit that the current world, ROOM wise, is rather small. There's just so many places a rogue magicker can go to.
I have never lost a PC to a magicker. I have only been in one combat situation against a magicker, though I have also been "attacked" in various non-combat ways on many many occasions. The one time that I did knowingly/willingly enter combat against a magicker, I would have totally accepted dying as my own damn fault, because it would have been.
I do not "hate" magick per se.
What I hate is that the current non-rarity of magick in the game is in direct conflict with the documentation.
I hate that there's been such a drain away from mundane characters in the game, to the point where it's hard to get mundane interaction.
I hate feeling blasé about magick and psionics.
I hate that this feeling comes from the fact that all of my mundane characters have had significant levels of interaction with non-mundane elements of the game, interaction that has only increased in the last few months. I have not had a choice as to whether magick is "rare" to my characters.
I hate that every large plot now revolves around magick, or has magick as an integral component of it.
I hate that my assumption about every new northlands character I meet is that he/she is a rogue magicker. I'm not kidding about that, that's always my first thought now, both ICly and OOCly. And it's not just me thinking it, either; I know that other characters are having the same thoughts, because it's so common now that it's all over our conversations.
I hate feeling like playing a mundane character is mostly pointless, because anything I can do in terms of plot-advancing skills, a non-mundane can do better. By "plot-advancing skills" I mean things like assassinations, spying, PC vs PC combat, travel, etc.; not things like general hunting or crafting.
I have nothing "against" the characters or players of non-mundanes in general. I don't think MOST of them are twinks, though some of them certainly are. In fact, I have roleplayed with some non-mundanes that I think have done an amazing job.
But I still think the game is suffering due to far too many non-mundanes (in proportion to the total PC population) right now.
Everyone has their own personal bias here, jhunter. You're definitely not innocent of that. It seems like your argument is, "If we make it harder for mages to progress in skill, it will be harder for mages to survive out in the deserts than it is now."
To me, that doesn't seem like a bad thing at all. In fact it sounds like a really good thing. If nothing else it will put a little more risk vs. the reward of being a mage with a whole bunch of spells and lots of power. Maybe it will even encourage people to come back and play in the cities, where it's safe, because, y'know, that's how the docs say life is supposed to be.
Why don't we clear this silly arguement up right here:
I lost a long lived warrior to a magickal being in March, 2004. My next post that had anything to do with magick was made in July, 2005 as a response to someone asking about the deaths of long-lived characters.
If I were jaded at losing a long lived character, don't you think I would've posted something in the next 14 months on the subject?
The first thread -I- started on magickal beings is Magick - Power and Place in Armageddon. This was posted on July, 2006, which was 26 months after the death of my "long lived warrior". One would assume that if I were jaded against the death of my character, I must obviously address those issues in the post?
Hrmmm, it seems to argue that I've felt magickers have been done a disservice since the destruction of Tuluk, and that the displacement of these magickers have had a negative impact on the perception of magick by the mundane populace. You know, I might have just been biding my time and waiting for the right moment to speak over those 26 months.
Except that I participated in 185 threads and started 9 of them over those 26 months, and none of the threads I started were on the subject of magick in Armageddon.
So, either I patiently waited and bided my time to express my anger over the loss of one character for 26 months and have since let that frustration affect every post I've ever made on the subject...
or...
...there's an actual issue to be addressed.
I think the fact that several other players, exlcuding myself, have an opinion on the matter that seems very close to my own would indicate that there's more at play here than what you perceive as my "jaded" past. There are very real and apparent issues with magickers and gameplay, and I'm sorry you disagree.
However, several people do agree. I'm afraid you'll just have to argue the facts with me next time, as exaggeration and assumption simply don't get the job done. There are problems with magickers and the gameworld. Other people feel it. Other people recognize it. And it's important for these discussions to happen so that the next iteration can benefit from past mistakes.
-LoD
I'm sorry, but this comment just pissed me off something royal. Jhunter, I'm assuming you've played a ranger before, so I'm pretty sure you remember just how !^$&ing hard it is to get one up to the point where it can weather all the dangers of the wilderness. Even then, a ranger's best tactic is hopping onto his mount and praying to whatever cruel gods that preside over Zalanthas that the animal has enough stamina left to get him to safety.
Still, everything out-rangers a human ranger. It seems every last elf and definitely all the gith NPCs can get better hiding skills along with being completely independent of a mount, which actually makes those hiding skills worthwhile. Not to mention there's still that bug where if you start running on a mount, you have to dismount and set your character to walking speed so your mount won't keep running. If you're being chased by a hunter-killer NPC, that's time you can't really afford to waste. Warriors of any race quickly outclass all rangers in the area of weapons combat. That archery ability doesn't help much, as not only do advanced warriors gain defenses against arrows, but the weapon switching delay, which includes taking an arrow in hand, makes a quick draw rather impossible. So if anything pins down a ranger or his mount quits on him before he can get to safety, he's dead.
Because of a ranger's jack-of-all trades nature, they fall under almost any serious pressure. At best, they just get by more easily than any other class.
Yet before the announcement, despite all these disadvantages, rangers were the most popularly played class, according to the staff. So why are you complaining about the difficulty of survival when rangers have it so tough already? Maybe you should start picking better subclasses with basic survival in mind.
So much for my plans for moving to Allanak in a desperate bid to get mundane interaction!
The whole issue is just very disappointing to me. I feel like I'm consistently being forced to play my character in conflict with the documentation. There's only so often that you can find out yet another friend is a sekret mage without starting to edge toward that dark place of, "yeah I guess mages aren't so bad after all..." Especially when, OOCly, I would really rather not solo-RP for the rest of my PC's life.
Why not play it like that, then? Sure, they've been brought up to it, but if an experience that doesn't match what you're expecting repeats itself, eventually you're going to change your expectations and your attitude. It's only natural.
How often have you met that kind of person that keeps complaining about foreigners/chinese/muslims/(insert minority of your choice here), but has that friend that he obviously likes, even though they're part of that minority?
Also, every time in history that there's been a 'shunned' minority, there were also been 'normal' people being friendly with them, having affairs or helping them out. Despite of the lifetime of prejudice that they've faced before that.
This is a major safety issue on earth, by the way, when people notice that something supposedly dangerous doesn't kill them right away, often they'll start treating it as something harmless, no matter the actual risk involved.
That's my point exactly. The documentatation is already out the window. And I'm not happy about it.
No. The docs tell you what you're most likely to start out with, which is magick-hating. This might increase because of IC events, or decrease gradually with time because you've run into the hundredth magicker now and you're still alive and kicking, even though you've been told that you'll get sick from looking at one.
If you feel that your character is getting used to things, it's probably a good time to LET them get used to things. It's called character development with time.
Yea, your usual zalanthian human is scared shitless of nobles and magickers. But your average PC might get used to it because they're much more likely to run into a magicker or a noble on a regular basis. Or they might turn the other way, but there's no point sticking to exactly the same attitude for years, no matter what happens. If a magicker kills your lover, you'll hate them even more, if your best buddy that you've known since you were three turns out to be a magicker, you -might- hate them a ittle less. It's called character development.
Not to nitpick, but pretty much everything you've said can apply to the opposite side of your argument as well.
People who want to play dirty mundane grebbers without having to worry about running into ridiculous amounts of mages out in the desert have no obligation to play how, who, and where -you- would want. They also are under no obligation to roll over and "deal with it" simply because you like an aspect of the game that they don't. The GDB exists so both sides of the discussion can voice their concerns if they think the game's balance is an issue.
I think the fact that this thread is twenty-two pages long says that more than just a handful of the playerbase is worried about the magicker/mundane balance in the game, and a lot of people are worried that it's only going to get worse as the game draws closer to an end.
By answering "deal with it" to a problem like that, you're basically saying that you're all right with alienating a portion of the playerbase that's significant and vocal enough to help propel twenty-two pages of discussion on the GDB.
I've never staffed a MU* personally, but I have run several large-scale roleplaying boards and groups in the past, and from an administrative standpoint, if enough of your players express a concern, it isn't something that should be answered with "deal with it" because there could be a legitimate problem. And if it's a problem big enough to impede your players' satisfaction and immersion and you don't even allow them to discuss it, you risk alienating your playerbase as well as potentially losing them.
And considering the amount of people that have been quitting and/or playing infrequently since Arm 2's announcement, I think it's more than a little irresponsible for players to take up a "deal with it" attitude on an issue that several people in this thread have said is enough to make them want to play less if it worsens.
When players quit, the game suffers.
People aren't trying to impede on your fun if you play a magicker--they're simply addressing what they see as a legitimate concern because it is lessening their enjoyment of the game.
Edit: To clarify, Shoka, I wasn't claiming you said the staff should tell players to deal with it or anything of the like; I was just using my personal experience adminning RP projects as an example. :)
First of all, that requires two people to do your 'comparison', two people are much easier to spot and deal with than one guy hiding in his apartment or secret cave spamming spells once in a while, with a semblance of roleplaying in between to keep the line between obvious twinkery and the basic roleplay required on the mud.
Second, doing so would be near useless, because the stat that dictates how often and how fast you gain in your selected skills is WISDOM, and how many warriors do you know of with anything above average wisdom, compared to the number of magickers you know of with anything LOWER than very good wisdom?
So even if two warriors with average wisdom were to spar all day, that'd be totally useless because their skill progression would probably lock after within two minutes and then remain locked for another hour or so (I'm just pulling numbers out of thin air, here, for the sake of example), but with your magicker with exceptional wisdom, their rate of advancement is MUCH faster due to the stat PLUS its much faster due to the fact that they've made advancing and branching in spells much faster to help out the magickers, so what you've got is a bonus to skills advancement + a bonus to spells progression = Magickers gaining new spells much faster than it's probably supposed to be like.
I hope I'm making sense.. It's no big secret that wisdom is the stat that deals with skills and spells progression, it says so in the help file. So now that you have 90% of the magickers with exceptional wisdom, and a much easier time learning and branching spells, of course it's a recipe for disaster in the long run..
I used to think that this was only happening in Tuluk, then I created a PC in Allanak just to see, and during my CST peaktime weeknights, I would often only see the same 2-3 PCs in the tavern sitting there, always going, dammit, I should have stayed in Tuluk, it seems like this Gimf chick is throwing RPTs every week or so, don't tell me that now that I've switched back to Allanak all the players went back to Tuluk?
So if you think it's just a problem in Tuluk, let me tell you that you'll be disappointed if you switch location thinking it's any better on the other side of the playground.
I do throw a mean RPT ;)
And my point wasn't that I'm thinking of switching to Allanak. That would mean storing my current character, which I'm just not going to do.
Nor was my point that I think that Allanak's not suffering, because clearly it is.
Point was...mundane RP is suffering. That is all.
And despite what some people think, tavern-sitting is a good thing. It's just as valid an activity as people being "off in their clan halls, doing work, or on missions, or doing business privately." Taverns are where the majority of first-time introductions happen, taverns are where commoners often interact with nobles and templars, taverns are where people can go for entertainment, taverns are where news is exchanged...it's silly to dismiss tavern-sitting like it's not important to the game, because it is.
Me too. With a ranger I routinely branch Charge in under 2 days.
Er, actually, that's often the only skill I branch. I ride around doing stuff, but none of the stuff I do ever makes anything branch. I suck at skills. As a merchant I might get one or two craft skills to branch, before I go out of my mind.
I think the only time I branched a spell was as a water elementalist. That time I had a spell branch from making water. If you grow up in a desert and then gain the ability to make free water, you really have to think of good reasons to not do it at every opportunity, because otherwise you could quite legitimately spend every waking moment making water or preparing to make water. Even if you can't sell it easily, hey, it's free water. Grow some houseplants or something.
With most other spells, I have trouble coming up with a good reason to cast spells. I'm all, "Hey, I can make something float, or glow, or do some other basically useless activity that will get me into trouble if anyone sees it, what fun." I never know how to go about it. Wake up, cast a couple spells and then . . . sit down and wait for the mana to regenerate so I can cast again? It is hard for me to figure out a reason to do that. I know that useful spells may be lurking behind some of the apparently useless spells, but since I haven't seen the skill and spells lists people insist exist, I have no idea which useless spells I should be spamming to get at the good stuff. Even the useful spells are really only useful a couple times a day, casting them continuously to force a branch doesn't appear to make sense.
Sure, I could avoid the problem by not casting spells, but if you don't cast spells then you are just a Merchant with no craft or trade skills. You know you've hit rock bottom when you find yourself thinking, "Man, if I wasn't an elementalist, I could be fletching arrows right now!"
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this is a problem. People speak about magick details far more freely on the GDB than they used to, and it makes me want to avoid all threads dealing with magick. I don't know where it went off track or why, but now people will freely post of the capabilities of the different classes.
It wasn't that long ago when discussion of skill tree progression, particularly for magickers, was not allowed. Now we at least one player creating a character with no intention to roleplay, but rather to spam-cast in an effort to gain IC info about magickers, and then post the results on the GDB. This is okay?
Someone posted on another thread about hoping players will keep the new sorcery details secret in Armageddon 2. I wanted to laugh. Not because I disagree; I couldn't agree more. I've just seen so little restraint shown about keeping secret info off the GDB.
It used to be that common knowledge of magick was determined by the public documentation, not by whoever were the most ineffective secret-keepers with karma. I miss those days.
edit to add: For one of many examples, see the post above.
I am fine with the idea that assassins should be able to branch parry (which is in the helpfile) in one day and max backstab and sneak/hide under two days of playtime.
Of course, it does not mean people should do it. Just let's make that possible. What do you say?
I was actually replying to this like in two sentence... But then I realized my original post was quite clear and the way it was meant to. I am not even going to explain myself one more time, anyone can go and reread it.
No. The concentration of the magickers in the world did not change. Or we would see a staff note in one of these threads like "The number of magick encounters on PC to PC level is purely IC, please RP it accordingly" if it was a change in the entire world. If it was really something that we should consider as an IC happening, and if the staff did not tell us, that would be a really great joke on all playerbase. Except it would not really be funny. Why would staff want to mislead us in something that affect the entire world in the first place?
Considering there are approximately 500000 people in Allanak, lets say 1000 is gemmed. That would probably be the approximate ratio of magicker/mundane in the entire world: About 1/500 I am guessing. Throw out the really burden-to-play roles (such as slaves) that will probably leave 150000 playable characters in Allanak. The ratio is now 1/150, which is still optional. Multiply it with people's enjoying certain roles and necessary special applications (nobles to drive plots, templars to enforce laws...etc) I will multiply that ratio with 10 (which I believe is more than generous) so that will leave an approximate ratio of 1/15. And that would be a reasonable ratio, at least for me to play along.
Now that is more or less the expected ratio that I would expect to encounter in any region of the known world. If I am now becoming magick-friendly just because majority of people I can interact (PCs) are magickers and most of everything else is just mindless zombies (vNPCs and NPCs) and if I am being magicker friendly for the sake of that then it is bad RP in all levels. It is not even true there are that many magickers, it is just they are so visible! And they are the only ones I can befriend/love/hate/oppose/compete/fight/work with/work for so what the hell? The best RP option here is to just quit the character so he can actually RP appropriately with the appropriate vNPCs, instead of going around lame excuses to interact with the playerbase.
P.S: I can just see someone taking one sentence out of this post and saying "Oh you should consider vNPCs it is how I RP it is how you should RP bla bla.."
Don't. Just don't. I know there are vNPCs and we RP accordingly, but they don't greet me back when I say hello or they don't fight back when I beat them, they don't sell me a piece of armor, I can't count them as one of my contacts to supply spice, and I definitely do not get killed by one of them. So don't derail mindlessly.
My guess is the people on the GDB that swore up and down that magickers were not capable of becoming powerful as quickly as Hymwen, Ghost, and a few others had claimed. Go back through the threads and you'll see this arguement come up over and over where players deny the fact that it is possible for a magicker to grow powerful enough to handle most mundane threats in a very short period of time.
When people don't like what they're hearing,denial is one of the first most obvious reactions. Well, we're not sitting face-to-face where we could privately convey our experiences, so Hymwen took another solution to help demonstrate to the vocal posters (and silent readers) what is possible. And simply because magickers are a karma class doesn't mean that several players haven't progressed through their spell trees extremely quickly -- especially those playing their second, third, or fourth magickal character in a row.
She isn't wrong. Especially not because you say so. The documentation is there to provide us with a guideline of how our general concepts of the world should be determined. There's no qualifier in the documentation that states players or player characters are exempt from following the documentation, which relates mostly or solely to the virtual populace.
I've always taken the documentation as a measure of how the entire gameworld should feel. If magick is a rare and mysterious component of Zalanthas, then it should be rare and mysterious to the player, non-player, and virtual characters in the game. You cannot bypass this with some convenient excuse that all player characters are "special" characters and, therefore, are excused from both following the documentation and expecting the documentation to be followed.
The problem is that the "available" roles span an extremely large cross section of the global food chain. You could have five people create new characters and enter the world as a 'rinth beggar, a Byn mercenary, a a Kuraci hunter, an Allanaki templar, and a rogue sorcerer. The difference between those roles is -massive- and the issue is that some of the lower end people are being trampled by a growing quantity of the upper tier. And by trampled, I mean their gameplay, which probably shouldn't contain an ounce of magickal interaction, now contains magickal elements. Not only once, but frequently.
As Halaster mentioned, the "teeth" given to magickers were designed with the notion that magickers, as a group of players, would be few and far between. Once that number began to grow, its presence was more prominently felt by the players of lower tier characters because of the disparity in power.
The problem isn't with the model for magickal spell progression.
The problem isn't with the power potential of the magicker class.
The problem is with both the total number and distribution of the magickers in game as they relate to the rest of the playerbase.
The playerbase isn't large enough to entertain a gameworld with lower, middle, and upper echelons of power while remaining independant of one another. The culture and the lack of players creates a frequent and often unwanted meeting of magickal/mundane that probably shouldn't happen, but does because there aren't enough other options.
Mundane leaders get approached (aggressively or passively) by magickal entities because magicker players, like mundane players, want to use the abilities they have practiced to "do something". Guards practice so they can guard. Merchants practice so they can make money. Thieves practice so they can steal. Magickers practice so they can use magick. Use it for what? Most of the plots in the gameworld involve mundane players because it simply follows the demographics, but the power of the magickers can be so awesome that it completely trumps the mundane's involvement.
The entire northern region makes it nearly impossible for magickers to use their powers in mundane plots in a positive way, so it constantly is introduced in an aggressive, overbearing, or sometimes fatal way that leaves the mundanes feeling frustrated. Those are the kind of problems that result from having a culture that forces a "us vs. them" mentality of magicker vs. mundane, but doesn't appropriately limit the number of magickers to keep a sense of balance between the two forces. And once that balance is lost, the game becomes less and less attractive to your average mundane player.
Let's say that you played pick-up basketball every week with the neighborhood kids. Every once and awhile, a professional basketball player would show up. It'd be fun because there'd be an army of low ability players and this professional that can do amazing things. However, now each week the number of professional quality players grows to the point that some of the pick-up players feel left out and trampled. They aren't guarding pick-up players, they're guarding professionals. The professionals start taking over their game and before you know it, the original players are kind of wishing that they could just go back to playing simple pick-up basketball without the professionals always showing up.
And, if it doesn't change, eventually those pick-up players are going to look for another court to play on.
You shouldn't interpret that feeling as "hatred" for magickers or a desire to see the option to play magickers being challenged, but a plea from several players that a game they really enjoyed has been changing in a way that lessens both the fun they glean from each session, and the desire to participate.
As Belenos said, there's no easy answer. Hopefully we can address some of these issues and provide fun for both groups in Arm 2.
-LoD
Question: Do you hate magickers?
Option 1: Yes
votes: 35
Option 2: No
votes: 68
Option 3: I hate no opinion in this matter
votes: 8
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LiquidShell on March 06, 2007, 12:45:04 AM
Post by: LiquidShell on March 06, 2007, 12:45:04 AM
Do you? Then post here.
My personal belief is that the mud is too magick heavy, by Halaster's will they have become too powerful due to the fact that their methods enable them to become overly powerful within a few days. If there were more methods to prevent spam casting to mon power then spamming to branch in necessity this might not be a problem, but it is. At current mundanes shouldn't even bother playing combative characters, we should all be merchants, or magickers, because when a magicker rolls around it's one spell death time. I do not approve of this, and I do not think the community, or staff should as well. Thus the reason for such a redundant thread. Once have I played one, and never again will I.
I hate magickers.
My personal belief is that the mud is too magick heavy, by Halaster's will they have become too powerful due to the fact that their methods enable them to become overly powerful within a few days. If there were more methods to prevent spam casting to mon power then spamming to branch in necessity this might not be a problem, but it is. At current mundanes shouldn't even bother playing combative characters, we should all be merchants, or magickers, because when a magicker rolls around it's one spell death time. I do not approve of this, and I do not think the community, or staff should as well. Thus the reason for such a redundant thread. Once have I played one, and never again will I.
I hate magickers.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Nile on March 06, 2007, 12:46:45 AM
Post by: Nile on March 06, 2007, 12:46:45 AM
I hate the feeling of going into battle against a gicker, knowing there is almost no chance of winning :(
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Armaddict on March 06, 2007, 12:48:39 AM
Post by: Armaddict on March 06, 2007, 12:48:39 AM
I don't mind them being powerful.
I just hate 'em because people who play them tend to get addicted. And so we end up with a huge amount of magick going around all the time.
I just always wanted it...well...more rare. But this discussion really has been done to death, and I don't really know of a solution.
Some people really enjoy playing magickers. It's what they like. Some people want to try them out from time to time. Some people only play them. It ends up with a steady population that fluxes up and down. So sometimes it's too common, sometimes it's relatively hard to find.
My other irritation with magick...every single event going on IC always seems to involve magick so that it's nearly impossible to counter until the go ahead is given. Mundane characters, and even other magick characters, are relatively useless unless its intended that way. Blam, lack of control in any form sucks.
I just hate 'em because people who play them tend to get addicted. And so we end up with a huge amount of magick going around all the time.
I just always wanted it...well...more rare. But this discussion really has been done to death, and I don't really know of a solution.
Some people really enjoy playing magickers. It's what they like. Some people want to try them out from time to time. Some people only play them. It ends up with a steady population that fluxes up and down. So sometimes it's too common, sometimes it's relatively hard to find.
My other irritation with magick...every single event going on IC always seems to involve magick so that it's nearly impossible to counter until the go ahead is given. Mundane characters, and even other magick characters, are relatively useless unless its intended that way. Blam, lack of control in any form sucks.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Only He Stands There on March 06, 2007, 01:00:38 AM
Post by: Only He Stands There on March 06, 2007, 01:00:38 AM
I'm kind of with Armaddict. I don't agree that mundanes get the shaft so much, but when it comes to PC magickers, I could stand seeing them a little more rare.
Magickers are, however, extremely easy to kill when you're in groups or if you have the drop on them. People really probably shouldn't go toe-to-toe with a magicker solo - it's a pretty stupid idea, even if you know the magicker is a brand-spanking-new PC, because you have no idea ICly what kind of crazy shit he could throw at you.
Magickers are, however, extremely easy to kill when you're in groups or if you have the drop on them. People really probably shouldn't go toe-to-toe with a magicker solo - it's a pretty stupid idea, even if you know the magicker is a brand-spanking-new PC, because you have no idea ICly what kind of crazy shit he could throw at you.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Forest Junkie on March 06, 2007, 01:09:22 AM
Post by: Forest Junkie on March 06, 2007, 01:09:22 AM
I'll be pithy:
1) If you hate magickers, don't play them.
2) If you're tired of dying to magickers, don't fight them.
3) Anyone who maxes a mage out in three playing days is a twink. You know it and I know it. If they have done so, I can promise you staff is onto them, and will note their accounts accordingly.
1) If you hate magickers, don't play them.
2) If you're tired of dying to magickers, don't fight them.
3) Anyone who maxes a mage out in three playing days is a twink. You know it and I know it. If they have done so, I can promise you staff is onto them, and will note their accounts accordingly.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Hot_Dancer on March 06, 2007, 01:31:53 AM
Post by: Hot_Dancer on March 06, 2007, 01:31:53 AM
I really dislike them.
It has become my experience that it's safer to suspect every new person you meet in the wilderness to be a spellcaster these days. They usually are.
Hot Dancer
It has become my experience that it's safer to suspect every new person you meet in the wilderness to be a spellcaster these days. They usually are.
Hot Dancer
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Kennath on March 06, 2007, 01:48:57 AM
Post by: Kennath on March 06, 2007, 01:48:57 AM
Magick is far over-powered. My suggestion: Make spellcasting hard. Make it so that high level spells require every bit of mana and expensive components. Wait, actually make every spell like that. Increase mana regen, and make spells sap A LOT more mana. Then one mis-spell means your fucked by the bad-ass warrior, and it prevents spam-casting.
-Ken
-Ken
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: manonfire on March 06, 2007, 02:07:30 AM
Post by: manonfire on March 06, 2007, 02:07:30 AM
I f*cking love magickers.
The only gripe in this thread that holds any water is that they ought to be a bit more rare.
Seriously, are you going to ambush a group of experienced, fully prepared magickers and expect to -not- get your ass handed to you?
The only gripe in this thread that holds any water is that they ought to be a bit more rare.
Seriously, are you going to ambush a group of experienced, fully prepared magickers and expect to -not- get your ass handed to you?
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Agent_137 on March 06, 2007, 02:17:08 AM
Post by: Agent_137 on March 06, 2007, 02:17:08 AM
I agree, magick should be more rare than it is, but it's not as bad as you mundanes make it out to be.
There are no maxed out 3 day 'gickers. Imfuckingpossible.
And it's just like any other class, really. Whoever gets the drop on the other has a significant advantage. Rangers have their poison and their arrows and their hiding. Honestly, you should be more fearful of an 18 day practiced ranger in the wild than some bumbling 'gicker.
I remember my magicker, I was quite intimate with his weaknesses, and quite aware of how he could be killed very easily with the right tactics.
This is not WoW. Classes are NOT balanced, nor should they be. At the same time, it's not imbalanced as you think it is, if you play your class smart.
There are no maxed out 3 day 'gickers. Imfuckingpossible.
And it's just like any other class, really. Whoever gets the drop on the other has a significant advantage. Rangers have their poison and their arrows and their hiding. Honestly, you should be more fearful of an 18 day practiced ranger in the wild than some bumbling 'gicker.
I remember my magicker, I was quite intimate with his weaknesses, and quite aware of how he could be killed very easily with the right tactics.
This is not WoW. Classes are NOT balanced, nor should they be. At the same time, it's not imbalanced as you think it is, if you play your class smart.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Medena on March 06, 2007, 02:18:20 AM
Post by: Medena on March 06, 2007, 02:18:20 AM
I love magickers.
I've never played one, not because I didn't want to but because there were just too many other character concepts screaming at me for attention. I am sad that I probably won't ever get to play one now.
I've never been killed by one, never even been attacked by one but they have still brought me many exciting, breath-holding, heart-pounding moments. They bring a lot of colour to the world.
I've never played one, not because I didn't want to but because there were just too many other character concepts screaming at me for attention. I am sad that I probably won't ever get to play one now.
I've never been killed by one, never even been attacked by one but they have still brought me many exciting, breath-holding, heart-pounding moments. They bring a lot of colour to the world.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Rothairh on March 06, 2007, 02:26:35 AM
Post by: Rothairh on March 06, 2007, 02:26:35 AM
I hate these threads.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Dresan on March 06, 2007, 02:28:10 AM
Post by: Dresan on March 06, 2007, 02:28:10 AM
I hate magickers, well not really but i dislike them. Not because they can kill me or because i think there are too many of them or because i think they are too powerful. The problem is my characters do encounter magickers and magick is involved in enough plots that i feel it gets old to constantly have to RP the fear. I honestly feel twinky not constantly shivering in my boots which icly is what should happen when a mundane encounters magick.
Its a natural IC/OOC feeling to be wary when dealing with magick because its so unpredicatable. The magicker could go crazy at anytime and kill everyone or you in theory. As a player and ICly as a character i have absolutely no control over the mater and that naturally sucks. This is completely okay with me though, i have no problems dealing with this.
However because of the way the IC world is set up unless i have a really good reason to interact with said magicker my RP feels limited to shivering in fear and trying to get away from said magicker as best as i can. I just wish i had more freedom to RP and interact with magickers in a variety of things/plots without feeling so twinky when i do.
Its a natural IC/OOC feeling to be wary when dealing with magick because its so unpredicatable. The magicker could go crazy at anytime and kill everyone or you in theory. As a player and ICly as a character i have absolutely no control over the mater and that naturally sucks. This is completely okay with me though, i have no problems dealing with this.
However because of the way the IC world is set up unless i have a really good reason to interact with said magicker my RP feels limited to shivering in fear and trying to get away from said magicker as best as i can. I just wish i had more freedom to RP and interact with magickers in a variety of things/plots without feeling so twinky when i do.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Apocalyptic_Cow on March 06, 2007, 02:29:23 AM
Post by: Apocalyptic_Cow on March 06, 2007, 02:29:23 AM
If I had a screwdriver I loved, I'd name it Magick. I think it's absolutely fantastic Arm has this system that you can spend years learning about and playing with, and still never consider everything to be done with it. Rather than allowing you to kill better, the main focus of magick, in my opinion, is to give you tools to manipulate Arm's environment in unique and interesting ways. Magick can, and does, push many many plots, and offers many fantastic situations for RP. Sure, sometimes a player gets through that might give magick a bad rap, but I think the cases are minimal, and they usually won't be recurring.
I have never seen a magicker character who just goes around killing mundane PCs for kicks. Every instance I can think of, where a magicker has approached a mundane, they go out of their way to provide an environment for play, and not just go in to notch their belt.
The problems I have seen involve mundane characters who don't approach magick with the fear and trembling it deserves. If you see something horrific on the horizon, you'd best not approach it. If you bump into a magicker when you shouldn't have, don't look at them and draw. Don't challenge magickers to "step outside the gates". You might get hurt. You'd might also get hurt if you did any of this to a mul.
I think it's important that magick on Arm is preserved as the esoteric and harrowing thing that it is. I'd be disappointed if magickers were castrated, and magick reduced to something plowed through with minimal mess to the undies.
That said, I could do with fewer magickers in game at any given time.
I have never seen a magicker character who just goes around killing mundane PCs for kicks. Every instance I can think of, where a magicker has approached a mundane, they go out of their way to provide an environment for play, and not just go in to notch their belt.
The problems I have seen involve mundane characters who don't approach magick with the fear and trembling it deserves. If you see something horrific on the horizon, you'd best not approach it. If you bump into a magicker when you shouldn't have, don't look at them and draw. Don't challenge magickers to "step outside the gates". You might get hurt. You'd might also get hurt if you did any of this to a mul.
I think it's important that magick on Arm is preserved as the esoteric and harrowing thing that it is. I'd be disappointed if magickers were castrated, and magick reduced to something plowed through with minimal mess to the undies.
That said, I could do with fewer magickers in game at any given time.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Rindan on March 06, 2007, 07:52:51 AM
Post by: Rindan on March 06, 2007, 07:52:51 AM
I don't dislike magikers. I do not mind that magikers cane eat your children with a a wink and a smile. I don't mind that magikers can OMFGWTFPWNED you.
What I mind about magikers is that there are just too damn many of them. I have a pile of magikers sitting on my list that I have not yet touched just because I am more of a freak if I pick a city elf these days over a magiker.
Niether magikers, nor their power is the bother. The bother is that if you close your eyes and point to a noble aid or guy wandering around in the wilderness, you stand a far too high of a chance of pointing to a magiker.
The player population doesn't need to match the VNPC population, but it shouldn't be turning a population that makes up a fraction of a percent of the population into something that is more common then a city elf.
So, do I hate magikers? No. Do I hate that everyone and their Gortok is a magiker? Yes.
What I mind about magikers is that there are just too damn many of them. I have a pile of magikers sitting on my list that I have not yet touched just because I am more of a freak if I pick a city elf these days over a magiker.
Niether magikers, nor their power is the bother. The bother is that if you close your eyes and point to a noble aid or guy wandering around in the wilderness, you stand a far too high of a chance of pointing to a magiker.
The player population doesn't need to match the VNPC population, but it shouldn't be turning a population that makes up a fraction of a percent of the population into something that is more common then a city elf.
So, do I hate magikers? No. Do I hate that everyone and their Gortok is a magiker? Yes.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Anael on March 06, 2007, 08:01:52 AM
Post by: Anael on March 06, 2007, 08:01:52 AM
I so totally agree with Apocalyptic_Cow (I was about to abbreviate it to AC and it gave me a pause, heh).
I'd like a bit less magick and more characters with lame excuses for not fearing magick such as 'he is crazy' or 'he doesn't fear anything'. I saw too many people go 'hunting 'gickers' either solo, or in pairs. Hey, it's cool. This one's a newb! Bah.
Sorry to derail, but it reminds me of the vast number of players who don't seem to realize what 'castes' mean, with every other Commoner thinking they're better than all nobles united. Or, even more amusingly, thinking they're better than all PC nobles while groveling in front of any NPC.
Back on topic. How come so many mundane Commoners, even those in Tuluk, know so much about magick? Where'd the info from the supersitions page go? How come a good half of nonmagickers will flippantly tell you which magickers can cast the 'eyepoke spell'? Seriously, folks...
I'd welcome magickers to be a bit more reasonable and less trigger happy in certain situations, but then, that's something I dislike about nonmagickers as well.
I'd like a bit less magick and more characters with lame excuses for not fearing magick such as 'he is crazy' or 'he doesn't fear anything'. I saw too many people go 'hunting 'gickers' either solo, or in pairs. Hey, it's cool. This one's a newb! Bah.
Sorry to derail, but it reminds me of the vast number of players who don't seem to realize what 'castes' mean, with every other Commoner thinking they're better than all nobles united. Or, even more amusingly, thinking they're better than all PC nobles while groveling in front of any NPC.
Back on topic. How come so many mundane Commoners, even those in Tuluk, know so much about magick? Where'd the info from the supersitions page go? How come a good half of nonmagickers will flippantly tell you which magickers can cast the 'eyepoke spell'? Seriously, folks...
I'd welcome magickers to be a bit more reasonable and less trigger happy in certain situations, but then, that's something I dislike about nonmagickers as well.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Marauder Moe on March 06, 2007, 08:51:42 AM
Post by: Marauder Moe on March 06, 2007, 08:51:42 AM
Quote from: "Nile"I hate the feeling of going into battle against a gicker, knowing there is almost no chance of winning :(
GOOD! Your character should feel the same way.[/i][/b]
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: moab on March 06, 2007, 09:05:58 AM
Post by: moab on March 06, 2007, 09:05:58 AM
I retired my sorcerer. She had 15 days of really great experience on her. I played her for about nine calender months or so.
She had nice phat list of spells.
Yet she was so weak that she could never initiate a successful attack with out a great deal of trickery, friends and pre-planning.
Had she been in a corner, there would have been no way out except for running (magicky-style or otherwise).
Every sorc is different of course - but this was my experience.
She had nice phat list of spells.
Yet she was so weak that she could never initiate a successful attack with out a great deal of trickery, friends and pre-planning.
Had she been in a corner, there would have been no way out except for running (magicky-style or otherwise).
Every sorc is different of course - but this was my experience.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Cenghiz on March 06, 2007, 09:29:02 AM
Post by: Cenghiz on March 06, 2007, 09:29:02 AM
Most of my mages are known as mundane by all the playerbase except a few chosen few. If one plays a totally visible magicker, he's a)gemmed b)new to magick. If you're seeing magickers a lot, just give them time. They possibly don't know how to hide from population and still interact.
3 days maxing out?? There's no such thing. If there is, that means that character is doing nothing but casting.
Everything comes with a cost. Magickers cannot interact. Period. They have little means using their abilities for interaction. Of course I'm exluding tribal mages and gemmers. But both are carefully watched. If you even perform a cantrip with a gemmed, you're dead meat. If you show that you're a magicker with your tribal, I'm sure an elder animates and kills you for the good of the tribe.
Arm is a MUD and the M means 'multi'. You don't hunt bahamets alone. You don't hunt silt horrors alone. And... you don't hunt magickers alone. About the suggestion that magick should cost more mana: Magick does cost a 'lot' of mana. I can think of only two elementalist types that can kill in groups. And they're supposed to be warmages. Other elementalist types simply exhaust themselves by even killing a jozhal. Two, only two warriors mean death to most of the 'prepared' mages and to all of the unprepared mages.
Even though killing a mage is so easy, it doesn't happen often. Why? Usually the scenario is one of these:
a)A krathi and his rukkian buddy prepare carefully for an hour to be able to get away from an assault then start foraging. A dwarf jumps down from the up exit and attacks the rukkian. In miliseconds, he falls unconscious and his hp is halved.
b) At the prime of his power, elementalist A wanders in deserted lands with a magickal companion with power equal to a bahamet. Desert elf runs in, desert elf attacks, the gigantic magickal creature guards (size affects your guarding ability), swings his magickal weapons twice, then proceeds with a spell which turns the elf to ash before the player of the magicker can even respond. The magicker sighs and starts looting.
But there are succesful scenarios:
a) Ranger loads his longbow. Ranger fires arrows. Ranger changes his room and slowly sneaks into the magicker's room. The magicker - bleeding furiously with arrows - is a one hit kill for him now.
b) Three desert elves attack poor rukkian. One desert elf gets immobilized, the other two slowly kill the magicker. They wait for the immobilized desert elf to awaken, then happily go to their outposts to announce the act of bravery.
c) Desert elf steals the krathi's kank. Then they start a trick with another desert elf ally, lure the krathi to a very distant place, then attack together and dismiss the krathi so easily. (I confess, the krathi was a new character or the trick wouldn't work because of a spell)
d) Assassin watches magicker from afar, follows him to his hiding place in 'rinth. Waits till the magicker rests and then attacks using a poison. He runs away before the magicker can even cast, then watches the magicker get weakened by poison. After an IC hour of wait, he performs a second assault which causes the death of the magicker.
All these are IC events that happened.
To sum up... If you're aiming to kill the magickers alone, make a Nilazi. Then even sorcerers shiver when they see you chanting. If you're aiming to kill magickers; gangbang them or use tactics and traps. Then it'll all be fine.
*mumbles* I hate magicker hating threads.
3 days maxing out?? There's no such thing. If there is, that means that character is doing nothing but casting.
Everything comes with a cost. Magickers cannot interact. Period. They have little means using their abilities for interaction. Of course I'm exluding tribal mages and gemmers. But both are carefully watched. If you even perform a cantrip with a gemmed, you're dead meat. If you show that you're a magicker with your tribal, I'm sure an elder animates and kills you for the good of the tribe.
Arm is a MUD and the M means 'multi'. You don't hunt bahamets alone. You don't hunt silt horrors alone. And... you don't hunt magickers alone. About the suggestion that magick should cost more mana: Magick does cost a 'lot' of mana. I can think of only two elementalist types that can kill in groups. And they're supposed to be warmages. Other elementalist types simply exhaust themselves by even killing a jozhal. Two, only two warriors mean death to most of the 'prepared' mages and to all of the unprepared mages.
Even though killing a mage is so easy, it doesn't happen often. Why? Usually the scenario is one of these:
a)A krathi and his rukkian buddy prepare carefully for an hour to be able to get away from an assault then start foraging. A dwarf jumps down from the up exit and attacks the rukkian. In miliseconds, he falls unconscious and his hp is halved.
b) At the prime of his power, elementalist A wanders in deserted lands with a magickal companion with power equal to a bahamet. Desert elf runs in, desert elf attacks, the gigantic magickal creature guards (size affects your guarding ability), swings his magickal weapons twice, then proceeds with a spell which turns the elf to ash before the player of the magicker can even respond. The magicker sighs and starts looting.
But there are succesful scenarios:
a) Ranger loads his longbow. Ranger fires arrows. Ranger changes his room and slowly sneaks into the magicker's room. The magicker - bleeding furiously with arrows - is a one hit kill for him now.
b) Three desert elves attack poor rukkian. One desert elf gets immobilized, the other two slowly kill the magicker. They wait for the immobilized desert elf to awaken, then happily go to their outposts to announce the act of bravery.
c) Desert elf steals the krathi's kank. Then they start a trick with another desert elf ally, lure the krathi to a very distant place, then attack together and dismiss the krathi so easily. (I confess, the krathi was a new character or the trick wouldn't work because of a spell)
d) Assassin watches magicker from afar, follows him to his hiding place in 'rinth. Waits till the magicker rests and then attacks using a poison. He runs away before the magicker can even cast, then watches the magicker get weakened by poison. After an IC hour of wait, he performs a second assault which causes the death of the magicker.
All these are IC events that happened.
To sum up... If you're aiming to kill the magickers alone, make a Nilazi. Then even sorcerers shiver when they see you chanting. If you're aiming to kill magickers; gangbang them or use tactics and traps. Then it'll all be fine.
*mumbles* I hate magicker hating threads.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on March 06, 2007, 09:30:59 AM
Post by: jhunter on March 06, 2007, 09:30:59 AM
Quote from: "Forest Junkie"I'll be pithy:
1) If you hate magickers, don't play them.
2) If you're tired of dying to magickers, don't fight them.
3) Anyone who maxes a mage out in three playing days is a twink. You know it and I know it. If they have done so, I can promise you staff is onto them, and will note their accounts accordingly.
Agreed.
Quote from: "Agent 137"And it's just like any other class, really. Whoever gets the drop on the other has a significant advantage. Rangers have their poison and their arrows and their hiding. Honestly, you should be more fearful of an 18 day practiced ranger in the wild than some bumbling 'gicker.
True.
I've been killed many times by mundanes who just found me travelling outside the city and decided: "Well, noone's around. My character is a "raider" (I just want an excuse to pk someone because I have no intentions of letting them live no matter how cooperative they are with me.) and had them randomly jump and kill my pc with no other interaction whatsoever.
I've -never- had a magicker pc do this to me.
Quote from: "Apocalyptic_Cow"The problems I have seen involve mundane characters who don't approach magick with the fear and trembling it deserves. If you see something horrific on the horizon, you'd best not approach it. If you bump into a magicker when you shouldn't have, don't look at them and draw. Don't challenge magickers to "step outside the gates". You might get hurt. You'd might also get hurt if you did any of this to a mul.
Exactly, -every- time I've seen a mundane killed by a magicker it's because the dumbass brought it upon themselves by either attacking on sight or not leaving the area when the magicker gave them fair warning to: "Get out of here or it's gonna be bad for you."
It's like going and trying to poke a mekillot with a stick (knowing how dangerous they are), getting killed by it and then blaming the mekillot.
Quote from: "Apocalyptic_Cow"I have never seen a magicker character who just goes around killing mundane PCs for kicks. Every instance I can think of, where a magicker has approached a mundane, they go out of their way to provide an environment for play, and not just go in to notch their belt.
I have never seen this either. I've only died once to a magicker and it was when I was playing one myself and had done something to give them cause to want me dead. I was given a pretty interesting death scene as well.
Quote from: "Kennath"Then one mis-spell means your fucked by the bad-ass warrior, and it prevents spam-casting.
Your badass warrior should be too afraid for his life and the lives of his family and friends to -ever- go take on a magicker by himself. And if you don't believe one mis-spell can mean your magicker is fucked by almost -any- mundane (much less a badass warrior) then you quite obviously don't have much experience with magick.
I have lost a few magickers to a single spell failing at a bad time.
Quote from: "Cenghiz"3 days maxing out?? There's no such thing. If there is, that means that character is doing nothing but casting.
Right on the money there and with your whole post Cenghiz. It's pretty close to things I've seen and experienced regarding magick.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Hot_Dancer on March 06, 2007, 09:52:24 AM
Post by: Hot_Dancer on March 06, 2007, 09:52:24 AM
Since magickers got stronger, they've absolutely dominated 90% of outside influence on my characters. This means a lot of boring, programmed, absolutely helpless to the situation roleplay.
Funny, this was never a case before Halaster gave them teeth.
Proof is in the pudding folks, people are only defending them because they were given a class option massively more powerful than the regular options.
It's currently only viable to play a non-spellcasting character that might enjoy any sort of dangerous conflict in the city, even then it'll probably be dominated by magickally based characters and your role will be minimalized again to a speck of dust.
I'm not interested in magical roleplay at all due to the totally overdone experiences I've run into in the last few years, but just to enjoy Arm on a reasonable playing field I've ended up considering my own elementalist options.
I definitely miss before magickers got their teeth, then you knew your character had a reasonable chance to affect an encounter without having a mana stat. The only things keeping me from hiatus til Armageddon 2 right now is a staff that's been beautifully active in my area of play and a clan that has managed to keep and attract a reasonable number of well-played characters.
*Voted hate but it may be because he got called in early to work*
Funny, this was never a case before Halaster gave them teeth.
Proof is in the pudding folks, people are only defending them because they were given a class option massively more powerful than the regular options.
It's currently only viable to play a non-spellcasting character that might enjoy any sort of dangerous conflict in the city, even then it'll probably be dominated by magickally based characters and your role will be minimalized again to a speck of dust.
I'm not interested in magical roleplay at all due to the totally overdone experiences I've run into in the last few years, but just to enjoy Arm on a reasonable playing field I've ended up considering my own elementalist options.
I definitely miss before magickers got their teeth, then you knew your character had a reasonable chance to affect an encounter without having a mana stat. The only things keeping me from hiatus til Armageddon 2 right now is a staff that's been beautifully active in my area of play and a clan that has managed to keep and attract a reasonable number of well-played characters.
*Voted hate but it may be because he got called in early to work*
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Tarx on March 06, 2007, 09:52:56 AM
Post by: Tarx on March 06, 2007, 09:52:56 AM
I've never seen an uber-maxed-out-in-three-days magicker. From my experiences playing this guild, it's exceptionally hard to do that.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: BuNutzCola on March 06, 2007, 10:00:39 AM
Post by: BuNutzCola on March 06, 2007, 10:00:39 AM
Since I know some of this is spurned off a recent event, while yes magickers are powerful, pretty much the entire reason for losing can be chalked up to not having used an ability that every character in the game starts with.
Pretty much, go against magickers without a well thought out plan, and you're going to lose. Same is with any class really, assassins after a good while can wreck someone quite well, but if they don't plan and prepare for it, there's a good chance they are going to get their asses handed to them.
And don't even get me started on the wonders of delf rangers and their bows vs any non delf race in general.
Pretty much, go against magickers without a well thought out plan, and you're going to lose. Same is with any class really, assassins after a good while can wreck someone quite well, but if they don't plan and prepare for it, there's a good chance they are going to get their asses handed to them.
And don't even get me started on the wonders of delf rangers and their bows vs any non delf race in general.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on March 06, 2007, 10:02:18 AM
Post by: jhunter on March 06, 2007, 10:02:18 AM
Quote from: "Hot Dancer"Proof is in the pudding folks, people are only defending them because they were given a class option massively more powerful than the regular options
That's a completely bullshit thing to say and you've just lost -every- ounce of respect I once had for you for saying it.
Sounds to me like you're only saying it because you think that mundane pcs should be out there hunting down and killing magickers solo. Used to do it before (even though it has been said several times that this should -rarely- if -ever- happen) You're likely one of the people that are the cause of them having to be given more teeth codedly.
(Only put that in there to show how dickheaded that statement you made was and can be said in reverse.)
How would you have liked it if the discussion was about desert elves and I popped in and made a statement that -everyone- who likes desert elves and plays them consistently just do it because they're a bunch of pgaming/pk'ing twinks? Actually, through my experiences I've been pk'ed randomly by delves a whole shitload more times while travelling outside with -any- pc. There you have it folks, desert elves are overpowered and I -hate- them. :roll:
I've had exactly the opposite experience. There has been absolutely -zero- increase in my magicker encounters with mundane pcs since they were given teeth. Why? Because I didn't go looking for them, I stayed away from places that they hear they may be lurking. Huh, pretty much the same way I played it before they were given teeth.
Codedly, a magicker can actually be killed by almost -any- mundane pc. If you aren't stupid about it and you disregard the fact that you should almost -never- typically be trying to kill them by yourself as far as the gameworld is concerned.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on March 06, 2007, 10:15:49 AM
Post by: jhunter on March 06, 2007, 10:15:49 AM
Heh, it's funny because I've seen this several times throughout the last few years.
"Let's go over to this secret cave out west here."
"Nay, I hear there's a dangerous magicker lurking around there."
"Well, I'm gonna go check it out for <insert whatever lame excuse to ignore any fear of magick here>"
"It's your funeral pyre. I'm heading the opposite direction"
*Guy ends up dead or attacked by magicker and narrowly surviving -after- having ran into and ignore warnings by magicker or just ran up and attacked it.*
*Same player posts on the board about how magickers are overpowered and the magicker players are all twinks, hates magickers, etc.*
*I laugh like a madman at the stupidity of people.*
It's like those scenes in some movies where a character heads down a path ignoring repeated HUGE signs saying that way leads to certain death, etc and ends up dying.
"Let's go over to this secret cave out west here."
"Nay, I hear there's a dangerous magicker lurking around there."
"Well, I'm gonna go check it out for <insert whatever lame excuse to ignore any fear of magick here>"
"It's your funeral pyre. I'm heading the opposite direction"
*Guy ends up dead or attacked by magicker and narrowly surviving -after- having ran into and ignore warnings by magicker or just ran up and attacked it.*
*Same player posts on the board about how magickers are overpowered and the magicker players are all twinks, hates magickers, etc.*
*I laugh like a madman at the stupidity of people.*
It's like those scenes in some movies where a character heads down a path ignoring repeated HUGE signs saying that way leads to certain death, etc and ends up dying.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Hot_Dancer on March 06, 2007, 10:25:34 AM
Post by: Hot_Dancer on March 06, 2007, 10:25:34 AM
I've never had a pc killed by a magicker other than a templar on the warpath with a following of half-giants.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Shalooonsh on March 06, 2007, 10:38:55 AM
Post by: Shalooonsh on March 06, 2007, 10:38:55 AM
This is not the opinion of the entire staff.
Fighting a magicker should be the equivalent of going up against a 500 lb football player loaded on PCP, with an unstable cold-war era Soviet nuclear suitcase bomb strapped to his arm.
You should NEVER want to fight one.
Let me repeat this, for all of you 'mage hunters' out there.
You should NEVER want to fight one.
Magickers are not people. They are half demon things that eat babies, lurk in shadows, and can strike you with a curse to make your genitalia swell to the size of a wagon which then starts to try to choke the life out of you. You DO NOT know what they can do. You DO NOT have any defense.
-EVERY- mage should be treated differently... but they aren't. -EVERY- mage should be feared... but they aren't. This is because players realize that in a slug fest, they might have a chance. "Oh, that's a sardine elementalist... he has 'create salt' and 'everlasting tin container of safety' and no real offensive spells. I can take him!" UNTRUE. Your CHARACTER has no bloody idea if that PC actually can actually cast 'floppy halibut of pain' and make you dance a horizontal jig while he curses every one you have ever known.
I, for one, am extremely glad that magickers are very powerful. I am glad that they are starting to go around and blow people up. People have been very 'ho-hum' about magick lately, and it really Grinds My Gears.
If your PC looks cross-eyed at a water mage, they should be worried about getting a curse set upon them that makes every sip of water taste like gargled glass... and that's just a bad look, let alone actually attacking one.
To those about to cast. We salute you.
Keep the fear level high.
Thanks be to Halaster for making all those awesome, scary-as-all-hell spells.
Again, this post does not reflect the opinion of the entire staff, but only one snivelling newbie of a brainzeater who has not even learned yet how to properly crack open a skull without getting bits of bone in his meal.
Fighting a magicker should be the equivalent of going up against a 500 lb football player loaded on PCP, with an unstable cold-war era Soviet nuclear suitcase bomb strapped to his arm.
You should NEVER want to fight one.
Let me repeat this, for all of you 'mage hunters' out there.
You should NEVER want to fight one.
Magickers are not people. They are half demon things that eat babies, lurk in shadows, and can strike you with a curse to make your genitalia swell to the size of a wagon which then starts to try to choke the life out of you. You DO NOT know what they can do. You DO NOT have any defense.
-EVERY- mage should be treated differently... but they aren't. -EVERY- mage should be feared... but they aren't. This is because players realize that in a slug fest, they might have a chance. "Oh, that's a sardine elementalist... he has 'create salt' and 'everlasting tin container of safety' and no real offensive spells. I can take him!" UNTRUE. Your CHARACTER has no bloody idea if that PC actually can actually cast 'floppy halibut of pain' and make you dance a horizontal jig while he curses every one you have ever known.
I, for one, am extremely glad that magickers are very powerful. I am glad that they are starting to go around and blow people up. People have been very 'ho-hum' about magick lately, and it really Grinds My Gears.
If your PC looks cross-eyed at a water mage, they should be worried about getting a curse set upon them that makes every sip of water taste like gargled glass... and that's just a bad look, let alone actually attacking one.
To those about to cast. We salute you.
Keep the fear level high.
Thanks be to Halaster for making all those awesome, scary-as-all-hell spells.
Again, this post does not reflect the opinion of the entire staff, but only one snivelling newbie of a brainzeater who has not even learned yet how to properly crack open a skull without getting bits of bone in his meal.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Halaster on March 06, 2007, 10:40:21 AM
Post by: Halaster on March 06, 2007, 10:40:21 AM
It is 100% completely intentional that magickers are the way they are in regards to how much power they hold versus the non-mages. That is the setup of the game, sorry if you don't like it.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LauraMars on March 06, 2007, 11:07:57 AM
Post by: LauraMars on March 06, 2007, 11:07:57 AM
I don't have a lot of problems with mages being supermen, able to kill tall buildings in a single bound (though there are a couple of spells I take passionate issue with). I just do my UTTER best to avoid them, since unless I'm playing a magicker myself (and sometimes even when I am), I have no interest in interacting with them.
However, I don't like the fact that there seems to be so...many...of them. Why do we need a ton of supermen in the game? There's only so long I'm going to roleplay cowering terror. Superman is cool because there's only one of him.
The mundane classes living outdoors...I feel for them. They must see a lot of magick, and these severely (and according to staff, intentionally) unbalanced interactions grow stale rather quickly.
It's up to the (increasing number of) players who have high-karma roles right now to play these roles fully and well, with complete awareness and rational of what they are doing. We all know that with great power comes great responsibility.
By the way, this thread is on the way to destruction!
However, I don't like the fact that there seems to be so...many...of them. Why do we need a ton of supermen in the game? There's only so long I'm going to roleplay cowering terror. Superman is cool because there's only one of him.
The mundane classes living outdoors...I feel for them. They must see a lot of magick, and these severely (and according to staff, intentionally) unbalanced interactions grow stale rather quickly.
It's up to the (increasing number of) players who have high-karma roles right now to play these roles fully and well, with complete awareness and rational of what they are doing. We all know that with great power comes great responsibility.
By the way, this thread is on the way to destruction!
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Bebop on March 06, 2007, 11:19:11 AM
Post by: Bebop on March 06, 2007, 11:19:11 AM
ANY character with enough time, practice, experience and aliases can pwn you in various ways. Why do magickers always get the shaft?
Babies.
We don't want to whore ourselves out for water.
We don't want to bow to templars.
We don't want to be burned to crisp by 3 hour Elkrosian.
I see the fear that maybe invoked in a karma less system but I think things will balance themselves out. As far as just plain hating magickers, this is the first I've heard of people just outright not liking them and to that I say magick is an integral part of this MUD. That's kind of the bottom line.
Babies.
We don't want to whore ourselves out for water.
We don't want to bow to templars.
We don't want to be burned to crisp by 3 hour Elkrosian.
I see the fear that maybe invoked in a karma less system but I think things will balance themselves out. As far as just plain hating magickers, this is the first I've heard of people just outright not liking them and to that I say magick is an integral part of this MUD. That's kind of the bottom line.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Ghost on March 06, 2007, 11:27:07 AM
Post by: Ghost on March 06, 2007, 11:27:07 AM
Quote from: "Bebop"ANY character with enough time, practice, experience and aliases can pwn you in various ways. Why do magickers always get the shaft?
No it is not like that. With an assassin you would not really be going after PCs and expecting a score before you hit the 20 days of play time. (And even after 20 days, there will be occasions you will get your ass handed to you even after preparation)
On the other hand, a friend of mine recently told me how fast he could become confident enough for survival: He said he branched 9 spells within 2 days of play time and nearly 1 day of it, he was linkdead due to power shortage.
Considering this statement and a previous experience of mine, from this point on whenever I roll for an outdoorsy character, or more like someone who is not totally city-bound I will always roll a magicker. Seriously, why make a mundane and try so hard and get smoked in the halfway before you are confident enough that you can achieve your character's goals?
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Bebop on March 06, 2007, 11:40:02 AM
Post by: Bebop on March 06, 2007, 11:40:02 AM
Quote from: "Ghost"Quote from: "Bebop"ANY character with enough time, practice, experience and aliases can pwn you in various ways. Why do magickers always get the shaft?
No it is not like that. With an assassin you would not really be going after PCs and expecting a score before you hit the 20 days of play time. (And even after 20 days, there will be occasions you will get your ass handed to you even after preparation)
On the other hand, a friend of mine recently told me how fast he could become confident enough for survival: He said he branched 9 spells within 2 days of play time and nearly 1 day of it, he was linkdead due to power shortage.
Considering this statement and a previous experience of mine, from this point on whenever I roll for an outdoorsy character, or more like someone who is not totally city-bound I will always roll a magicker. Seriously, why make a mundane and try so hard and get smoked in the halfway before you are confident enough that you can achieve your character's goals?
Being self sufficent? So what? Any ranger with half a brain behind their player is self-sufficent almost from the get go!
Magickers can't go around slaughtering people that quick unless they having godlike wisdom or they are just spam casting. Not to mention you just have to stratagize every guild has their strengths and weaknesses.
Are magickers immune to poison? I think not.
Are they capable in combat? I think not.
People focus and focus on magickers and really blow this kind of thing out of proportion.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Ghost on March 06, 2007, 11:53:52 AM
Post by: Ghost on March 06, 2007, 11:53:52 AM
They are capable in combat. I will give an example:
A certain elementalist with a single defensive spell on him withstood a combat against 3 people, two of them had unnatural strength (consider it as half giant strength) the magicker did not cast a single spell for healing or any other purposes. And he survived the combat, after a considerably long time (lets say there passed enough time to make travel cakes).
I will give another example now:
Another certain elementalist could outmatch a mul in melee. Elementalist had only one spell on him, and mul has been played for a longer time (at least to my observation). The fight was not to death, so the elementalist did not use any spells, just fought in melee. And it was not like the elementalist was 30+ days old with byn training. I don't even think he was any higher up than 4 days of playing time. And as I said, mul had more time played (to my observation).
I will give you one final example and this will be it:
The real sad part, where I really decided to play magickers for all criminal and outdoorsy types from this point on was after I realized, whenever I need something done the first thing that crossed my mind was magickers.
Someone needs assassinated? This guy spends his time here, we need this elementalist.
The guy is too important and guarded too well? We may use the combination of this and this elementalists.
It never was a "We need a maxed out assassin" because we all knew the chances of having a maxed out assassin is FAR lower than finding out an elementalist that can get the same job done. And the elementalist probably has higher chance of survival in the end.
Not just assassinations, for other tools of crime as well. For me, I don't really mind magickers anymore. This is the way it is supposed to be, there is nothing else for discussion.
That said I am done with hating magickers. Instead I will play one. And I am done with this thread. Everything has been discussed to death so many times.
A certain elementalist with a single defensive spell on him withstood a combat against 3 people, two of them had unnatural strength (consider it as half giant strength) the magicker did not cast a single spell for healing or any other purposes. And he survived the combat, after a considerably long time (lets say there passed enough time to make travel cakes).
I will give another example now:
Another certain elementalist could outmatch a mul in melee. Elementalist had only one spell on him, and mul has been played for a longer time (at least to my observation). The fight was not to death, so the elementalist did not use any spells, just fought in melee. And it was not like the elementalist was 30+ days old with byn training. I don't even think he was any higher up than 4 days of playing time. And as I said, mul had more time played (to my observation).
I will give you one final example and this will be it:
The real sad part, where I really decided to play magickers for all criminal and outdoorsy types from this point on was after I realized, whenever I need something done the first thing that crossed my mind was magickers.
Someone needs assassinated? This guy spends his time here, we need this elementalist.
The guy is too important and guarded too well? We may use the combination of this and this elementalists.
It never was a "We need a maxed out assassin" because we all knew the chances of having a maxed out assassin is FAR lower than finding out an elementalist that can get the same job done. And the elementalist probably has higher chance of survival in the end.
Not just assassinations, for other tools of crime as well. For me, I don't really mind magickers anymore. This is the way it is supposed to be, there is nothing else for discussion.
That said I am done with hating magickers. Instead I will play one. And I am done with this thread. Everything has been discussed to death so many times.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: enigma on March 06, 2007, 12:04:31 PM
Post by: enigma on March 06, 2007, 12:04:31 PM
It's the end of the world, people! Of course the world's suddenly full of magickers. Haven't you heard the prophecy?
When magicks come in vast abound
Apocalypse there shall be found
These dark days shall be the last
When arcane things doth kill us fast
When magicks come in vast abound
Apocalypse there shall be found
These dark days shall be the last
When arcane things doth kill us fast
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LoD on March 06, 2007, 12:10:44 PM
Post by: LoD on March 06, 2007, 12:10:44 PM
I do not hate the magick system. It's awesome.
I do not hate magick characters. They're usually well played.
I do believe that IC events (i.e. Cataclysm) and class alterations (i.e. Halaster's notorious "teeth") have somewhat done a disservice to the role of the magicker within the gameworld. I've said it all many times, so I don't want to rehash the entire conversation simply because another thread has popped up with a related title.
Magick was better when it rare and mysterious in practice rather than in concept. Rare to the characters, and rare to the players. It made discoveries all the more exciting, and encounters all the more terrifying. Being fearful of magick is much easier when it isn't so prevalent a thing. And keeping its terrible and wonderful experience difficult to attain, and I mean pretty damn difficult, helped to reinforce this atmosphere.
Magickal power was hard to attain. Mundanes could take down fledgling and even accomplished mages without needing an army. This partially helped thin the ranks, but the mages hunted/killed were predominantly those travelling in the wilderness, or attacking people on the roads. Tuluk and Allanak both provided viable homes, lives, and loyalties for magick characters. True power took time, effort, and no small amount of patience.
Magick haters will claim that every PC they run into in the desert is a magicker now, which is an exaggeration. Magick lovers will claim that every player speaking out against magick just wants to be able to easly kill mages, which is also an exaggeration.
The truth is that the ever increasing number of players with access to karma restricited magicker roles, the lethal potential of the magicker, and their displacement within the gameworld have fostered the current culture which, to many, feels jam packed with magick. Magick plots, magick fiends, magick armies, magick people hanging around our oasis, magick people travelling the roads, magick people travelling tribal lands, etc...
This isn't about hating magick. No one hates magick. They hate an environment that represents a direct contradiction to the documentation. They hate an environment where players craving interaction sometimes force their magicker to make unrealistic choices such as travelling in lands known to be frequented/owned by VNPC or NPC tribes that would likely hunt and kill them on sight.
Certain areas of the game are accommodating OOCly to an outlaw mage, offering "free" water, creatures/game to practice spells upon, plants to gather/sell. Each rogue magicker probably thinks they are doing their best to keep a low profile, doing what it takes to survive, and feels personally offended or attacked when other players claim magickers are a problem in the game. They probably feel this way because they don't play out the perspective of the tribesman living there. They don't see the view of the desert elf or human nomad that has run into the 8th magicker casting at their oasis this month, or hidden in the -same- cave smack dab in the middle of their -known- territory.
Jhunter uses an example of a cave rumored to be inhabited by a magicker as an example of unrealistic behavior for mundanes. He argues that mundanes should be afraid of the magicker and should endeavor to leave it alone, run from it, avoid contact at all costs.
What about the people who own the land the cave is on? What about the people who have used that cave for decades before the magicker got there? What about their entire tribe feeling nervous about a magicker being close to them, or their territory? Shouldn't the magicker feel any fear? Shouldn't the magicker try to avoid angering the locals at all costs? Shoudln't the magicker try and stay off other people's lands or areas known to be traveled or used by tribals for fear of being found?
Some people love the power potential of the current mage. Some people love the "outlaw mage" concept. Some people love the RP surrounding fantastical and magickal plots and beings. They will always fight, tooth and nail, against any system that speaks of changing what they feel is their "right" to experience. There's no easy way out of this mess, and I certainly hope that Arm 2 is able to strike a better balance.
-LoD
I do not hate magick characters. They're usually well played.
I do believe that IC events (i.e. Cataclysm) and class alterations (i.e. Halaster's notorious "teeth") have somewhat done a disservice to the role of the magicker within the gameworld. I've said it all many times, so I don't want to rehash the entire conversation simply because another thread has popped up with a related title.
Magick was better when it rare and mysterious in practice rather than in concept. Rare to the characters, and rare to the players. It made discoveries all the more exciting, and encounters all the more terrifying. Being fearful of magick is much easier when it isn't so prevalent a thing. And keeping its terrible and wonderful experience difficult to attain, and I mean pretty damn difficult, helped to reinforce this atmosphere.
Magickal power was hard to attain. Mundanes could take down fledgling and even accomplished mages without needing an army. This partially helped thin the ranks, but the mages hunted/killed were predominantly those travelling in the wilderness, or attacking people on the roads. Tuluk and Allanak both provided viable homes, lives, and loyalties for magick characters. True power took time, effort, and no small amount of patience.
Magick haters will claim that every PC they run into in the desert is a magicker now, which is an exaggeration. Magick lovers will claim that every player speaking out against magick just wants to be able to easly kill mages, which is also an exaggeration.
The truth is that the ever increasing number of players with access to karma restricited magicker roles, the lethal potential of the magicker, and their displacement within the gameworld have fostered the current culture which, to many, feels jam packed with magick. Magick plots, magick fiends, magick armies, magick people hanging around our oasis, magick people travelling the roads, magick people travelling tribal lands, etc...
This isn't about hating magick. No one hates magick. They hate an environment that represents a direct contradiction to the documentation. They hate an environment where players craving interaction sometimes force their magicker to make unrealistic choices such as travelling in lands known to be frequented/owned by VNPC or NPC tribes that would likely hunt and kill them on sight.
Certain areas of the game are accommodating OOCly to an outlaw mage, offering "free" water, creatures/game to practice spells upon, plants to gather/sell. Each rogue magicker probably thinks they are doing their best to keep a low profile, doing what it takes to survive, and feels personally offended or attacked when other players claim magickers are a problem in the game. They probably feel this way because they don't play out the perspective of the tribesman living there. They don't see the view of the desert elf or human nomad that has run into the 8th magicker casting at their oasis this month, or hidden in the -same- cave smack dab in the middle of their -known- territory.
Jhunter uses an example of a cave rumored to be inhabited by a magicker as an example of unrealistic behavior for mundanes. He argues that mundanes should be afraid of the magicker and should endeavor to leave it alone, run from it, avoid contact at all costs.
What about the people who own the land the cave is on? What about the people who have used that cave for decades before the magicker got there? What about their entire tribe feeling nervous about a magicker being close to them, or their territory? Shouldn't the magicker feel any fear? Shouldn't the magicker try to avoid angering the locals at all costs? Shoudln't the magicker try and stay off other people's lands or areas known to be traveled or used by tribals for fear of being found?
Some people love the power potential of the current mage. Some people love the "outlaw mage" concept. Some people love the RP surrounding fantastical and magickal plots and beings. They will always fight, tooth and nail, against any system that speaks of changing what they feel is their "right" to experience. There's no easy way out of this mess, and I certainly hope that Arm 2 is able to strike a better balance.
-LoD
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on March 06, 2007, 12:12:42 PM
Post by: jhunter on March 06, 2007, 12:12:42 PM
Quote from: "Ghost"They are capable in combat. I will give an example:
A certain elementalist with a single defensive spell on him withstood a combat against 3 people, two of them had unnatural strength (consider it as half giant strength) the magicker did not cast a single spell for healing or any other purposes. And he survived the combat, after a considerably long time (lets say there passed enough time to make travel cakes).
Did he -kill- any of them? Just because he could keep them from killing him with that one spell by no means displays that -all- magickers can do so. In fact, most of them would've just died in that situation if they could not get away.
Quote from: "Ghost"I will give another example now:
Another certain elementalist could outmatch a mul in melee. Elementalist had only one spell on him, and mul has been played for a longer time (at least to my observation). The fight was not to death, so the elementalist did not use any spells, just fought in melee. And it was not like the elementalist was 30+ days old with byn training. I don't even think he was any higher up than 4 days of playing time. And as I said, mul had more time played (to my observation).
I'm pretty sure I know what one you're talking about. If so, you are sorely mistaken about how long that one had been played. I happen to know it had quite a few days of playing time on it -and- that also just happens to be the -one- type of magicker that specializes and excels in that area.
I also know of an 80 day rukkian that was two hit killed by a much much lesser played mul warrior as well.
Quote from: "Ghost"It never was a "We need a maxed out assassin" because we all knew the chances of having a maxed out assassin is FAR lower than finding out an elementalist that can get the same job done. And the elementalist probably has higher chance of survival in the end.
I agree with this. But I don't see it as a problem with magickers. I see it as a problem with assassins.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Ghost on March 06, 2007, 12:20:37 PM
Post by: Ghost on March 06, 2007, 12:20:37 PM
Hopefully my last post in the thread, just wanted to make it clear:
No. It was not the type of elementalist that specialized in melee defense. Completely different, and I think the elementalist does not have any other defense magicks against melee. But it was pretty obvious even out of his expertise, it defended him better than muls/halfgiants/warriors with shield training.
Hopefully my last post.
Quote from: "jhunter"I'm pretty sure I know what one you're talking about. If so, you are sorely mistaken about how long that one had been played. I happen to know it had quite a few days of playing time on it -and- that also just happens to be the -one- type of magicker that specializes and excels in that area.
No. It was not the type of elementalist that specialized in melee defense. Completely different, and I think the elementalist does not have any other defense magicks against melee. But it was pretty obvious even out of his expertise, it defended him better than muls/halfgiants/warriors with shield training.
Hopefully my last post.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Agent_137 on March 06, 2007, 12:20:44 PM
Post by: Agent_137 on March 06, 2007, 12:20:44 PM
Ghost, your inexperience with the system leads to your misconceptions. Quit listening rumors about playtime and spell lists and play your magickers and learn how it really is.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on March 06, 2007, 12:27:31 PM
Post by: jhunter on March 06, 2007, 12:27:31 PM
Quote from: "LoD"Being fearful of magick is much easier when it isn't so prevalent a thing.
By that way of thinking, if you live in an area that has alot of mekillots/silt horrors/bahamets/gith/halflings,etc then it's expected that you shouldn't -fear- them? I don't really get what point you're trying to make here, LoD.
No matter how often you come into contact with it, you should fear it because it -is- dangerous and potentially lethal to you.
Quote from: "LoD"Jhunter uses an example of a cave rumored to be inhabited by a magicker as an example of unrealistic behavior for mundanes. He portends that mundanes should be afraid of the magicker and should endeavor to leave it alone, run from it, avoid contact at all costs.
What about the people who own the land the cave is on? What about the people who have used that cave for decades before the magicker got there? What about their entire tribe feeling nervous about a magicker being close to them, or their territory? Shouldn't the magicker feel any fear? Shouldn't the magicker try to avoid angering the locals at all costs? Shoudln't the magicker try and stay off other people's lands or areas known to be traveled or used by tribals for fear of being found?
Noone owns -every- damned cave and hidey hole in the game. In fact I quite agree with you that if a magicker is looking for a place to hide out it would make sense that they do not do so too close to other groups of people that may consider the area "their land". The problem is also that some people seem to overstep their bounds on what is considered "their land" in order to have excuses to go make contact with magickers and go magehunting.
If they're foolish enough to go attempt to hide out in a place that's quite obviously known to be a certain tribes land then they deserve it when -the tribe- gathers forces and attempts to do something about it. That still doesn't make it realistic for single tribe members to head for that cave and attempt to take on an abomination against nature that could possibly put a plague on their tribe.
I take no issue with a -tribe- or other -group- going to hunt down a mage that's too close to home. I do take issue with people going to take care of this dangerous being alone.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Halaster on March 06, 2007, 12:37:05 PM
Post by: Halaster on March 06, 2007, 12:37:05 PM
Quote from: "Ghost"
On the other hand, a friend of mine recently told me how fast he could become confident enough for survival: He said he branched 9 spells within 2 days of play time and nearly 1 day of it, he was linkdead due to power shortage.
Just something to note - that is good and intentional. We want mages to get survivable and semi-powerful in a decently short time. The reason is so that they will spend less time powergaming and more time roleplaying. Yes, they have to practice their magick to get good, but it doesn't take too terribly much time to practice. Generally speaking, mages are karma or special-app roles, so we usually trust the player enough to let them get that kind of power fairly quickly.
And by "that kind of power" I mean survivably-powerful, not take-over-the-world powerful.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Twilight on March 06, 2007, 12:50:51 PM
Post by: Twilight on March 06, 2007, 12:50:51 PM
Of course, then there is the issue that I can only think of perhaps three or four areas in the game that aren't claimed by something, at least virtually (ie those tribes in the docs with no present NPCs in the territory). And at least one of those isn't really liveable. So yes, they are pretty much always going to be in someone else's territory. But so are other tribes, etc. And while we may go to every single room in a tribal territory, this is because there are a limited number of rooms in the game, not because a tribal would necessarily do this.
I've made melee capable elementalists. It is possible, but not easy. I would ask Ghost what guilds were fighting the elementalists in question. I would hazard they were not warriors. Two warriors of decent skill will destroy an elementalist in melee combat. There isn't a single defensive spell I know of that will, by itself, prevent this. If they were not warriors, or combat guilds, then yes, an elementalist with a single defensive spell vs three other elementalists can survive. You aren't giving us enough to judge anything about relative power.
As for me, I definately don't hate mages. I think that in the last two years there has been a steady increase in the number of them. However, having played them previous to that, from the magicker perspective the current situation is very, very nice in that you actually have other magickers to RP with. I had one gemmed, years ago, a Krathi with Tor. I played him perhaps 9 RL months, and I met something like 5 other mages in that entire time, total. I never got to interact with a single other gemmed on a sustained basis. No magick RP, theoretical discussions, etc. Its fun to have other mages now.
I've made melee capable elementalists. It is possible, but not easy. I would ask Ghost what guilds were fighting the elementalists in question. I would hazard they were not warriors. Two warriors of decent skill will destroy an elementalist in melee combat. There isn't a single defensive spell I know of that will, by itself, prevent this. If they were not warriors, or combat guilds, then yes, an elementalist with a single defensive spell vs three other elementalists can survive. You aren't giving us enough to judge anything about relative power.
As for me, I definately don't hate mages. I think that in the last two years there has been a steady increase in the number of them. However, having played them previous to that, from the magicker perspective the current situation is very, very nice in that you actually have other magickers to RP with. I had one gemmed, years ago, a Krathi with Tor. I played him perhaps 9 RL months, and I met something like 5 other mages in that entire time, total. I never got to interact with a single other gemmed on a sustained basis. No magick RP, theoretical discussions, etc. Its fun to have other mages now.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: mansa on March 06, 2007, 12:53:45 PM
Post by: mansa on March 06, 2007, 12:53:45 PM
I have karma for a magicker, but I don't play them.
I like having skills that people can't pinpoint by viewing them once.
I like being an -everyman- character, like a warrior, ranger, pickpocket, burglar, or assassin.
That's just me. I find casting to be in the same category as crafting.
I like having skills that people can't pinpoint by viewing them once.
I like being an -everyman- character, like a warrior, ranger, pickpocket, burglar, or assassin.
That's just me. I find casting to be in the same category as crafting.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Ghost on March 06, 2007, 01:03:22 PM
Post by: Ghost on March 06, 2007, 01:03:22 PM
Again for clarification:
My first example of 3 against one: Two of those with the unnatural strength was a warrior (with enough playing time to be considered a real danger), the other was not but he was a very long lived character and also again, the strength category is that of a halfgiant, I could easily say he could beat a 10 day warrior in melee (he was able to outmatch the other warrior)
The third attacker was not much of a melee
The second example: It was a mul warrior.
In my final example: All those plannings had been done. Never using an assassin crossed our minds.
Quote from: "Twilight"
I've made melee capable elementalists. It is possible, but not easy. I would ask Ghost what guilds were fighting the elementalists in question. I would hazard they were not warriors. Two warriors of decent skill will destroy an elementalist in melee combat. There isn't a single defensive spell I know of that will, by itself, prevent this. If they were not warriors, or combat guilds, then yes, an elementalist with a single defensive spell vs three other elementalists can survive. You aren't giving us enough to judge anything about relative power.
My first example of 3 against one: Two of those with the unnatural strength was a warrior (with enough playing time to be considered a real danger), the other was not but he was a very long lived character and also again, the strength category is that of a halfgiant, I could easily say he could beat a 10 day warrior in melee (he was able to outmatch the other warrior)
The third attacker was not much of a melee
The second example: It was a mul warrior.
In my final example: All those plannings had been done. Never using an assassin crossed our minds.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LoD on March 06, 2007, 01:14:58 PM
Post by: LoD on March 06, 2007, 01:14:58 PM
Quote from: "jhunter"By that way of thinking, if you live in an area that has alot of mekillots/silt horrors/bahamets/gith/halflings,etc then it's expected that you shouldn't -fear- them? I don't really get what point you're trying to make here, LoD.
Perhaps I can make it more clear for you. Mekillots, Bahamets, and Silt Horrors are known dangers and predators that frequent specific and limited ranges of land. People know where they live, people know where not to travel. They respect that boundary, and the mekillots, bahamets, and silt horrors do not encroach into areas where they, themselves, would be killed - such as civilization centers or sprawling territories where they would be hunted.
You don't see bahamets in the tablelands, do you? If not, then that's case closed on your arguement. Magickers know no such boundaries and choose to move across commonly used and travelled hunting grounds, water sources, roads, and other such infrastructure.
If you aren't one of these magickers, then don't respond personally. However, just because YOU wouldn't float around the grasslands, tablelands, or roadways frequented by mundanes doesn't mean that all magickers don't. They do. And they are representative of the types of magickers people are speaking of here, who don't respect these boundaries and, thus, invite and warrant the often aggressive attention of the mundane populace they should hope to avoid.
Quote from: "jhunter"Noone owns -every- damned cave and hidey hole in the game.
I never said they did, but we both know that magickers DO sometimes use such areas that DO reside on tribal lands. It is to those people that I speak, not you personally. If you aren't one of them, then you shouldn't have anything to worry about as far as that point is concerned. It's important, however, for players to consider whether or not the area they're using to "hide" is in fact remote and unused. If not, they shouldn't be surprised if mundanes DO find them and DO try to do something about them being there.
Quote from: "jhunter"In fact I quite agree with you that if a magicker is looking for a place to hide out it would make sense that they do not do so too close to other groups of people that may consider the area "their land". The problem is also that some people seem to overstep their bounds on what is considered "their land" in order to have excuses to go make contact with magickers and go magehunting.
I'm really tired of the 'magehunting' excuse out of you, jhunter. It comes out of your mouth every time one of these dicussions pops up. You seem completely unable to conceive of a reason why someone would want changes to made to the magicker role other than a very specific and twinkish agenda of "making them easier for my PC to kill." New flash, that ain't the main reason. Not even by a longshot.
Mundanes don't want to "magehunt", they want to interact with other mundanes and go about their lives without some invisible mystical mouth harassing them when they're just trying to RP out a nice hunt, or tryng to get to the next town. They want to RP with their peers instead of having some player with an inferiority complex show up with their mage expecting the mundane to grovel and their feet and beg for their life simply because they selected "g" on the character creation sheet. These are the very same people that have caused all this magehunting in the first place.
[rant]
Guess what, I don't hunt tigers. Know why? Because they don't come into my town. They don't try to attack my car while I'm driving to my job. They don't show up at restaurants while I'm eating my food. They stay away from people and people stay away from them -- and we both survive.
But if a tiger showed up at my doorstep, ready to fight and kill me. I would run. I would hide like a little girl and call the cops. The first time.
But after I survived that encounter, you can be damned sure I'm going to load up on protection against some mother fucking tigers. And if that bastard shows up again, I'm going to be ready and gonna do something about it because I'm only going to be afraid until that tiger FORCES me to be unafraid by coming around again, and again, and again.
It's no longer a rare and wondrous creature. It's a threat. A viable threat. And all of its wonder, and power, and mystery isn't going to mean crap when my "tiger patrol" goes riding around town specifically looking for tigers to kill. And we're gonna kill 'em. Every single one we see, whether it's someone's exotic pet or a special one-of-a-kind pacifist tiger that contains the holy spirit of an entire religion, it's freakin' toast. Because we can't tell and it's not worth finding out.
And we do this all because that first tiger couldn't leave well enough alone. They couldn't keep all their power, and strength, and speed, and lethal cunning to themselves and just enjoy being a tiger. No, they had to go out and fuck with people who had NO intention of ever hurting tigers in their entire lives.
So, you want someone to blame for people "magehunting" - look at the mages. Don't look at the people just trying to go about their daily lives, hunting food for dinner, travelling from city to city to make a sale, or going about their general mundane business. You want to be left alone, then leave them alone. It's really freakin' simple - but it's surprising how many people just can't manage to do it.
[/rant]
-LoD
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Malken on March 06, 2007, 01:23:19 PM
Post by: Malken on March 06, 2007, 01:23:19 PM
I want to add a point that no one really ever considers.. Now with stat placement, it's VERY easy to get anything above very good wisdom as a magicker.. Anything under and I would find myself quite unlucky.. All the magickers I've played so far at least had very good wisdom, if not exceptional, easily..
So very good wisdom + faster spell branching, of course now you'll see ever more powerful magickers attaining a dangerous level faster.
Add to that a crafting subclass that allows you to easily survive on your own, branching new recipes really fast with your high wisdom, it's easy now to play a non-gemmed magicker, you don't even need to seek out faraway caves anymore..
Can any of you honestly say that they never place widsom first when they create magickers? (Those who don't randomly select them, of course)
So very good wisdom + faster spell branching, of course now you'll see ever more powerful magickers attaining a dangerous level faster.
Add to that a crafting subclass that allows you to easily survive on your own, branching new recipes really fast with your high wisdom, it's easy now to play a non-gemmed magicker, you don't even need to seek out faraway caves anymore..
Can any of you honestly say that they never place widsom first when they create magickers? (Those who don't randomly select them, of course)
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Dresan on March 06, 2007, 01:32:48 PM
Post by: Dresan on March 06, 2007, 01:32:48 PM
Wow...LoD is my hero.
I also agree with LauraMars. However i want to add that its just not magickers (players). Its also magickal things going on in various places. Alot of people have mentioned there always seems to be magick involved in the plots or staring you down in the face in the wilderness.
All of it adds up to magick not feeling as rare and mysterious as it did before and even though that might be only the fifth magicker talking to my character ever out in the wilds trembling in fear yet again gets old.
I also agree with LauraMars. However i want to add that its just not magickers (players). Its also magickal things going on in various places. Alot of people have mentioned there always seems to be magick involved in the plots or staring you down in the face in the wilderness.
All of it adds up to magick not feeling as rare and mysterious as it did before and even though that might be only the fifth magicker talking to my character ever out in the wilds trembling in fear yet again gets old.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Onimantu on March 06, 2007, 01:52:18 PM
Post by: Onimantu on March 06, 2007, 01:52:18 PM
I'm going to give the usual disclaimer that this is not an official staff opinion.
I'm the type who either plays rangers or 'non-mundanes' pretty exclusively. The strategy of the various systems appeals to me in a way that, frankly, most other situations just don't. This might change in 2.arm, and I will be immensely happy if it does.
Having played mages for oh... 5 years of my 7+ on Arm, I can honestly say I've intentionally killed a PC without being directly provoked by aggression maybe... three times? And then I had a reason for every single one of those kills that was far beyond "omg, i want l00t."
Again, in my opinion, which in no way reflects that of staff, if you want to look for the reason your PC likely died in a horrible fashion to a mage you might want to examine your own IG behavior. Let me paint some scenarios I've participated in or seen.
1) Non-Mage walks in, looks at mage. Sees evidence of magickry and draws weapons in order to attempt to kill mage while mage is sitting on the ground minding their own business, or in a lot of cases even acting friendly. NM gets owned like nobody's business.
2) NM walks in, sees wounded mage with some sort of visible spell on. Assumes they can take wounded mage. NM attacks. NM gets destroyed utterly.
3) NM charges in blindly, attempting to kill mage for the phat magick l00tz they must have, not even bothering to use a think or a feel or an emote as they prepare (and by prepare I mean spot the mage, decide OOCly if they have a chance of taking them, and then press the direction the mage is located in)
There are some people who play aggressive mages. This is a viable option. Some people aren't nice. Some people want the womenz (or menz), the power and the money. It's ok to play like that, in my opinion, as long as you don't take it to senseless PKing which I've seen rarely, and by rarely I think twice.
As Loon noted, it doesn't matter where they are. Just. Don't. Attack. Them. You wouldn't attack a friendly ranger(I'm assuming so since there isn't a three page thread called 'I hate Friendly Rangers'), why the hell are you attacking someone who every bit of documentation available on the game tells you is twenty times as powerful? It doesn't matter if they -are- that powerful or not, what matters is that everything you know should be saying "A mage! Run!" or at least "A mage! be wary but don't provoke it!"
But, I'd like to be constructive in this post rather than just pointing out that the majority of magick realted deaths occur when someone decides OOCly they can take a mage without ever having actually -killed- one IG with that character. So, here are some solutions:
1) Use think, feel and emote before you attack a mage. Not only does this give staff a better idea of what you're doing, the most important thing it does is -buy you time so you can think a little more like your character-. If you think like them, maybe you'll realize you're probably going to die if the mage is a) smart, b) prepared or the worst possible combination, c) all of the above.
2) Make a PC who doesn't look at killing like sneezing. It is possible to roleplay someone who finds killing to be unpleasant, doesn't have a desire to end the lives of other thinking, feeling beings, and in general acts like life matters to them(some folks seem to confuse a survival oriented existence with a suicidal existence). This doesn't mean you can't be a hard as nails ranger or warrior, who doesn't like killing but will do it if they have to (times of war, etc) but it does give you a reason to let people live or to not engage them at all. That slight tweak in personality can change your -entire- gameplay perspective.
3) If you feel bound by the rules of your clan, tribe, organization in regards to mages... interpret them a little differently. Weigh your potential loss to the clan/tribe/organization vs the potential gain of killing some random dude wandering the wastes. He might have a few hundred sid, or some interesting looking trinkets but you represent a being that can work, hunt, procreate, etc for your tribe/organization/clan. Losing you over some piddly guy wandering around, not bothering anybody, is not worth it so you can assume if you go back home and say something like "Watch out around, X Y or Z, I saw some magicker." Nobody's going to look at you and go "Get out of the clan loser! You didn't throw yourself at them!"
Those are my points, and my suggestions. They do not reflect staff's opinions (except for the bit about staff -really- liking it if you use thinks and feels to describe how your character is at any given point, that part might be a staff opinion ;), but the rest is purely me).
I'm the type who either plays rangers or 'non-mundanes' pretty exclusively. The strategy of the various systems appeals to me in a way that, frankly, most other situations just don't. This might change in 2.arm, and I will be immensely happy if it does.
Having played mages for oh... 5 years of my 7+ on Arm, I can honestly say I've intentionally killed a PC without being directly provoked by aggression maybe... three times? And then I had a reason for every single one of those kills that was far beyond "omg, i want l00t."
Again, in my opinion, which in no way reflects that of staff, if you want to look for the reason your PC likely died in a horrible fashion to a mage you might want to examine your own IG behavior. Let me paint some scenarios I've participated in or seen.
1) Non-Mage walks in, looks at mage. Sees evidence of magickry and draws weapons in order to attempt to kill mage while mage is sitting on the ground minding their own business, or in a lot of cases even acting friendly. NM gets owned like nobody's business.
2) NM walks in, sees wounded mage with some sort of visible spell on. Assumes they can take wounded mage. NM attacks. NM gets destroyed utterly.
3) NM charges in blindly, attempting to kill mage for the phat magick l00tz they must have, not even bothering to use a think or a feel or an emote as they prepare (and by prepare I mean spot the mage, decide OOCly if they have a chance of taking them, and then press the direction the mage is located in)
There are some people who play aggressive mages. This is a viable option. Some people aren't nice. Some people want the womenz (or menz), the power and the money. It's ok to play like that, in my opinion, as long as you don't take it to senseless PKing which I've seen rarely, and by rarely I think twice.
As Loon noted, it doesn't matter where they are. Just. Don't. Attack. Them. You wouldn't attack a friendly ranger(I'm assuming so since there isn't a three page thread called 'I hate Friendly Rangers'), why the hell are you attacking someone who every bit of documentation available on the game tells you is twenty times as powerful? It doesn't matter if they -are- that powerful or not, what matters is that everything you know should be saying "A mage! Run!" or at least "A mage! be wary but don't provoke it!"
But, I'd like to be constructive in this post rather than just pointing out that the majority of magick realted deaths occur when someone decides OOCly they can take a mage without ever having actually -killed- one IG with that character. So, here are some solutions:
1) Use think, feel and emote before you attack a mage. Not only does this give staff a better idea of what you're doing, the most important thing it does is -buy you time so you can think a little more like your character-. If you think like them, maybe you'll realize you're probably going to die if the mage is a) smart, b) prepared or the worst possible combination, c) all of the above.
2) Make a PC who doesn't look at killing like sneezing. It is possible to roleplay someone who finds killing to be unpleasant, doesn't have a desire to end the lives of other thinking, feeling beings, and in general acts like life matters to them(some folks seem to confuse a survival oriented existence with a suicidal existence). This doesn't mean you can't be a hard as nails ranger or warrior, who doesn't like killing but will do it if they have to (times of war, etc) but it does give you a reason to let people live or to not engage them at all. That slight tweak in personality can change your -entire- gameplay perspective.
3) If you feel bound by the rules of your clan, tribe, organization in regards to mages... interpret them a little differently. Weigh your potential loss to the clan/tribe/organization vs the potential gain of killing some random dude wandering the wastes. He might have a few hundred sid, or some interesting looking trinkets but you represent a being that can work, hunt, procreate, etc for your tribe/organization/clan. Losing you over some piddly guy wandering around, not bothering anybody, is not worth it so you can assume if you go back home and say something like "Watch out around, X Y or Z, I saw some magicker." Nobody's going to look at you and go "Get out of the clan loser! You didn't throw yourself at them!"
Those are my points, and my suggestions. They do not reflect staff's opinions (except for the bit about staff -really- liking it if you use thinks and feels to describe how your character is at any given point, that part might be a staff opinion ;), but the rest is purely me).
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Fathi on March 06, 2007, 01:54:48 PM
Post by: Fathi on March 06, 2007, 01:54:48 PM
When your character goes on a 20-league-or-less ride that's mostly a perimeter jaunt around a large city-state and you run into not only two mages, but two sorcerers, magick is too prevalent.
People can bitch about how mundanes are too hostile to magickers in the desert all they want, but if you're an ungemmed and you're going to openly cast around people without even wearing a facewrap or whatever to disguise yourself, there are gonna be consequences. Even if they don't try to attack you when they see you casting, if they run, you bet they're gonna tell their buddies about it. Hey, they might even realise that in some towns, if they report you to a templar, they could get paid for it.
You might have been trying to heal my character or summon a box of muffins for him, but my ranger or warrior wouldn't know that. It looks like an offensive action.
And also, don't assume my mundane doesn't like your magicker becausee I have an OOC bias against the class. My character's family could have been burned alive by Krathi in his background. He could just be hostile to -anybody- he meets out in the desert because he's paranoid or has gotten attacked a lot recently. Maybe he's ducked into his favourite ranger hidey hole and gotten hit with invis/paralyse twice in a row now and thinks your Vivaduan who happened to be passing through did it, because it's not like he knows the difference between a water mage and a Whrian or Elkran.
People can bitch about how mundanes are too hostile to magickers in the desert all they want, but if you're an ungemmed and you're going to openly cast around people without even wearing a facewrap or whatever to disguise yourself, there are gonna be consequences. Even if they don't try to attack you when they see you casting, if they run, you bet they're gonna tell their buddies about it. Hey, they might even realise that in some towns, if they report you to a templar, they could get paid for it.
You might have been trying to heal my character or summon a box of muffins for him, but my ranger or warrior wouldn't know that. It looks like an offensive action.
And also, don't assume my mundane doesn't like your magicker becausee I have an OOC bias against the class. My character's family could have been burned alive by Krathi in his background. He could just be hostile to -anybody- he meets out in the desert because he's paranoid or has gotten attacked a lot recently. Maybe he's ducked into his favourite ranger hidey hole and gotten hit with invis/paralyse twice in a row now and thinks your Vivaduan who happened to be passing through did it, because it's not like he knows the difference between a water mage and a Whrian or Elkran.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Onimantu on March 06, 2007, 02:01:43 PM
Post by: Onimantu on March 06, 2007, 02:01:43 PM
Quote from: "Fathi"
And also, don't assume my mundane doesn't like your magicker becausee I have an OOC bias against the class. My character's family could have been burned alive by Krathi in his background. He could just be hostile to -anybody- he meets out in the desert because he's paranoid or has gotten attacked a lot recently. Maybe he's ducked into his favourite ranger hidey hole and gotten hit with invis/paralyse twice in a row now and thinks your Vivaduan who happened to be passing through did it, because it's not like he knows the difference between a water mage and a Whrian or Elkran.
Then perhaps they shouldn't complain about it when they do get slaughtered for attacking someone randomly because they're paranoid?
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Medena on March 06, 2007, 02:06:36 PM
Post by: Medena on March 06, 2007, 02:06:36 PM
If there is a single thing which dilutes the mystique of the magicker as rare/mysterious/dangerous it is these f***ing threads. It is not their great proliferation in recent times. It is not magicker PC's sitting in every single cave in the world spam-casting.
It is you folks talking about how magicker X can branch spells X, Y, Z in two days; about the places secret magickers hang out; about the areas of the world they are prevalent; about how good or not good magickers are in combat; about how a warrior can fight a mage; etc, etc, etc. So that now every player who might not have known any of these things now know. So that newer players who might not have been so wary now see a magicker behind every bush.
A while back I played a ranger who spent a lot of time rambling around near Tuluk at a time when there was a big "there are magickers everywhere around Tuluk" thread going on. My PC was pretty dumb, both in general and specifically about magick, and I can honestly say that apart from a run-in with a sorceror, she never to her knowledge saw a single magicker. She probably did but didn't know. And I am probably lucky that, despite threads like these, my personal magick knowledge was low and so I could quite easily play my character's naivety.
It is you folks talking about how magicker X can branch spells X, Y, Z in two days; about the places secret magickers hang out; about the areas of the world they are prevalent; about how good or not good magickers are in combat; about how a warrior can fight a mage; etc, etc, etc. So that now every player who might not have known any of these things now know. So that newer players who might not have been so wary now see a magicker behind every bush.
A while back I played a ranger who spent a lot of time rambling around near Tuluk at a time when there was a big "there are magickers everywhere around Tuluk" thread going on. My PC was pretty dumb, both in general and specifically about magick, and I can honestly say that apart from a run-in with a sorceror, she never to her knowledge saw a single magicker. She probably did but didn't know. And I am probably lucky that, despite threads like these, my personal magick knowledge was low and so I could quite easily play my character's naivety.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Fathi on March 06, 2007, 02:08:30 PM
Post by: Fathi on March 06, 2007, 02:08:30 PM
Quote from: "Onimantu"Quote from: "Fathi"
And also, don't assume my mundane doesn't like your magicker becausee I have an OOC bias against the class. My character's family could have been burned alive by Krathi in his background. He could just be hostile to -anybody- he meets out in the desert because he's paranoid or has gotten attacked a lot recently. Maybe he's ducked into his favourite ranger hidey hole and gotten hit with invis/paralyse twice in a row now and thinks your Vivaduan who happened to be passing through did it, because it's not like he knows the difference between a water mage and a Whrian or Elkran.
Then perhaps they shouldn't complain about it when they do get slaughtered for attacking someone randomly because they're paranoid?
I'm in full agreement with you there. It's dumb for either side to complain OOCly about consequences of their own character's actions.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: spawnloser on March 06, 2007, 02:25:13 PM
Post by: spawnloser on March 06, 2007, 02:25:13 PM
Quote from: "Medena"If there is a single thing which dilutes the mystique of the magicker as rare/mysterious/dangerous it is these f***ing threads. It is not their great proliferation in recent times. It is not magicker PC's sitting in every single cave in the world spam-casting.See, half of what these people have said is wrong, though. They're misconceptions and hearsay. I love these threads for exposing who has never actually played an experienced mage.
It is you folks talking about how magicker X can branch spells X, Y, Z in two days; about the places secret magickers hang out; about the areas of the world they are prevalent; about how good or not good magickers are in combat; about how a warrior can fight a mage; etc, etc, etc. So that now every player who might not have known any of these things now know.
Quote from: "Medena"So that newer players who might not have been so wary now see a magicker behind every bush.I'll agree with this part, though.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Marauder Moe on March 06, 2007, 02:27:31 PM
Post by: Marauder Moe on March 06, 2007, 02:27:31 PM
Quote from: "Medena"If there is a single thing which dilutes the mystique of the magicker as rare/mysterious/dangerous it is these f***ing threads.
Amen. I do think there has been a disturbing amount of IC info revealed about magicker's capabilities, both what they can and what they can't do. I do feel bad for anyone that learned something new about magickers from this thread.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jmordetsky on March 06, 2007, 02:31:42 PM
Post by: jmordetsky on March 06, 2007, 02:31:42 PM
Um sorry.
On the subject of mages being to powerful:
First - There are like at least 5 warriors in game right NOW who's skills are buff enough and who's players are smart enough to pown most mid-level mages.
Second - Very powerful mages are supposed to be able to ruin non-mages.
Trust me, I worry now much more about maxxed sneak, hide and sap (ouch) then I do about mages.
From what I could see, the biggest issue with mages are the evil floating invisible ones that don't emote and just cast paralyze on you. Um. Lamezor. All of that would be balanced by letting warriors branch scan, and creating a spice or something that boosted it.
Without invisibility, most mages are glass cannons and prone to serious weaknesses.
On the other hand as far as there being too many mages in game...yes...lets tone the special apps down a bit, eh? Jeez.
On the subject of mages being to powerful:
First - There are like at least 5 warriors in game right NOW who's skills are buff enough and who's players are smart enough to pown most mid-level mages.
Second - Very powerful mages are supposed to be able to ruin non-mages.
Trust me, I worry now much more about maxxed sneak, hide and sap (ouch) then I do about mages.
From what I could see, the biggest issue with mages are the evil floating invisible ones that don't emote and just cast paralyze on you. Um. Lamezor. All of that would be balanced by letting warriors branch scan, and creating a spice or something that boosted it.
Without invisibility, most mages are glass cannons and prone to serious weaknesses.
On the other hand as far as there being too many mages in game...yes...lets tone the special apps down a bit, eh? Jeez.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Gimfalisette on March 06, 2007, 02:53:51 PM
Post by: Gimfalisette on March 06, 2007, 02:53:51 PM
Have to say I'm really in LoD's camp on the overall issue. I play mundane characters who just want to not get involved in magick, almost exclusively. I also am not combat-oriented or much of a pkiller; I'll do it if it absolutely MUST be done, from an IC standpoint, but it's never been nor will it ever be my main thing. (Because it bores me.) In theory, Tuluk should be a perfect place to play a mundane, non-combat, mostly city-bound character who just wants to avoid magick, right? And yet I find that magick impacts every one of my characters in very significant ways.
"Oh great, that new friend/lover is a sekret magicker. Again."
"Wow, I didn't even do anything to that magicker and yet here I am being (insert name of magickal spell of your choice) all over the city."
"What the hell was that?! Oh just another magicker/psionicist using me for practice..."
"Hey let's go logging/hunting/foraging...whoops, just heard the news, can't go to (region we need to travel that is in sight of the city walls) because it's being plagued by magickal raiders."
"Damn, still not safe this week to travel to Luir's due to magickal raiders on the road."
Honestly, I just want to get on with my mundane characters' lives and not deal with magick so often. It's so un-rare it's ridiculous. The "you just want to be powerful enough to pkill a magicker thing" completely doesn't apply to me. I want to be left alone by magickers, because I'm leaving them alone.
But if magickers won't leave me alone, then I reserve the right for my characters to know enough about them to keep themselves protected. I don't create my characters so they can become magickers' playthings, so until magick doesn't unwelcomely impact my characters at every turn, I'm not interested in playing so dumb/naive about it that my characters are endangered.
"Oh great, that new friend/lover is a sekret magicker. Again."
"Wow, I didn't even do anything to that magicker and yet here I am being (insert name of magickal spell of your choice) all over the city."
"What the hell was that?! Oh just another magicker/psionicist using me for practice..."
"Hey let's go logging/hunting/foraging...whoops, just heard the news, can't go to (region we need to travel that is in sight of the city walls) because it's being plagued by magickal raiders."
"Damn, still not safe this week to travel to Luir's due to magickal raiders on the road."
Honestly, I just want to get on with my mundane characters' lives and not deal with magick so often. It's so un-rare it's ridiculous. The "you just want to be powerful enough to pkill a magicker thing" completely doesn't apply to me. I want to be left alone by magickers, because I'm leaving them alone.
But if magickers won't leave me alone, then I reserve the right for my characters to know enough about them to keep themselves protected. I don't create my characters so they can become magickers' playthings, so until magick doesn't unwelcomely impact my characters at every turn, I'm not interested in playing so dumb/naive about it that my characters are endangered.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LiquidShell on March 06, 2007, 03:51:11 PM
Post by: LiquidShell on March 06, 2007, 03:51:11 PM
I'm glad that we clarified that some of our staff condone, or even prefers mages to harass, kill, and otherwise ruin the rp of the mundanes. I'm glad that we established that it takes a run of the mill 15-20 day mundane pc to be able to do anything about a two day elementalist who's been summoning monsters on you during your hunt unprovoked, or just sleeping you for fun. You know what? I think everyone should start making magickers, maybe if we didn't have any mundanes because everyone was tired of being stepped on by the amount of rabid magickers in game the staff might think differently about the teething of magickers. The more I read into the thread, the more I become disgusted, the more I realize that magicker abuse on mundanes is not an isolated event, and hell you might even get karma for doing it.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: manonfire on March 06, 2007, 04:13:47 PM
Post by: manonfire on March 06, 2007, 04:13:47 PM
Aren't you the kid who got himself sitebanned from SoI?
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: mansa on March 06, 2007, 04:18:14 PM
Post by: mansa on March 06, 2007, 04:18:14 PM
Quote from: "LiquidShell"I'm glad that we clarified that some of our staff condone, or even prefers mages to harass, kill, and otherwise ruin the rp of the mundanes. I'm glad that we established that it takes a run of the mill 15-20 day mundane pc to be able to do anything about a two day elementalist who's been summoning monsters on you during your hunt unprovoked, or just sleeping you for fun. You know what? I think everyone should start making magickers, maybe if we didn't have any mundanes because everyone was tired of being stepped on by the amount of rabid magickers in game the staff might think differently about the teething of magickers. The more I read into the thread, the more I become disgusted, the more I realize that magicker abuse on mundanes is not an isolated event, and hell you might even get karma for doing it.
Do you know what ArmageddonMUD's Karma is?
It's a measure of trust, to trust that you will play the role as it is supposed to be played.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Shalooonsh on March 06, 2007, 04:20:51 PM
Post by: Shalooonsh on March 06, 2007, 04:20:51 PM
LiquidShell writes:
It's quite clear that you are sore about a particular incident.
I think it would do you well to reminisce about the exact sequence of events of that particular incident, and consider the fact that, given all the evidence you were presented, you made an exceptionally bad decision.
Not unlike Don Quixote.
Quoteblah blah blah
It's quite clear that you are sore about a particular incident.
I think it would do you well to reminisce about the exact sequence of events of that particular incident, and consider the fact that, given all the evidence you were presented, you made an exceptionally bad decision.
Not unlike Don Quixote.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: a strange shadow on March 06, 2007, 04:21:16 PM
Post by: a strange shadow on March 06, 2007, 04:21:16 PM
1) Somebody has to be able to kill those 150 day warriors/rangers.
2) Use tactics and teamwork to kill a mage. Other than kill;bash.
2) Use tactics and teamwork to kill a mage. Other than kill;bash.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Fathi on March 06, 2007, 04:24:31 PM
Post by: Fathi on March 06, 2007, 04:24:31 PM
Quote from: "jmordetsky"
Without invisibility, most mages are glass cannons and prone to serious weaknesses.
Invisibility can be such an awesome RP tool, too, especially when coupled with hemotes and semotes.
There's one mage in particular that comes to mind who could make invisibility a creepshow like no other. He's so good I thought he was an NPC at first because his emotes seemed to be so environmental.
A well-played mage, to me, gives me the OOC thought, "Wow, if I'm gonna have to lose X character, at least it'll hopefully be to this guy."
Too bad I never learned his PC's name and it was back when I was too new to understand how to give kudos. :( You were awesome, invisible guy.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LoD on March 06, 2007, 04:25:17 PM
Post by: LoD on March 06, 2007, 04:25:17 PM
Quote from: "LiquidShell"I'm glad that we clarified that some of our staff condone, or even prefers mages to harass, kill, and otherwise ruin the rp of the mundanes. I'm glad that we established that it takes a run of the mill 15-20 day mundane pc to be able to do anything about a two day elementalist who's been summoning monsters on you during your hunt unprovoked, or just sleeping you for fun. You know what? I think everyone should start making magickers, maybe if we didn't have any mundanes because everyone was tired of being stepped on by the amount of rabid magickers in game the staff might think differently about the teething of magickers. The more I read into the thread, the more I become disgusted, the more I realize that magicker abuse on mundanes is not an isolated event, and hell you might even get karma for doing it.
I want to mention that I added to this thread despite your original post rather than because of it. I don't believe that the Imm Staff condone or prefer mages harassing, killing, or ruining the RP of the mundanes. They've simply mentioned that magick is a powerful force that should be respected. Mess with the bull and you'll get the horns, etc...
Magicker abuse on mundanes happens much less frequently than mundane on mundane abuse where people murder indiscriminantly, purposefully target LD characters, spam skills with little to no thought of their application in the gameworld, or act out completely unrealistic scenes that ignore VNPC or NPC components of the game.
The notion that people would receive karma based at all on how much they harass, kill, or meddle with other players is baseless and simply incorrect.
My aim was to put reasons behind the feelings that people are describing, as well as better communicate the true issue -- which is not because the playerbase hates magickers, but because there are other issues at play better represented in the thoughtful posts of others than by your borderline trolling commentary.
Be careful not to mistake paassion for anger, frustration for hate, or criticism for damning. They are none of those things.
-LoD
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Apocalyptic_Cow on March 06, 2007, 04:59:34 PM
Post by: Apocalyptic_Cow on March 06, 2007, 04:59:34 PM
I think LOD brought up some good points that we should address and potentially salvage this titanic of a thread. Rather than considering this a problem between all mundanes and all magickers, I really agree that it's a territory issue. I sympathize with the clan that struggles to function, given their culture, because their territory is not recognized remotely as theirs, or is used as a highway for characters they are in conflict with. Looking at the game as it is, this is only a problem for some tribes, and I think we should look at what keeps the others from facing this problem.
There are some tribes whose land is relatively open, unmarked, and caravans could be plowed through without ever recognizing they were trespassing. Foreign characters can't be expected to understand that there are virtual tribesmen around (if indeed there are) without any indication, especially if the players themselves are unaware.
However, there are also some tribes whose land you know you are on immediately, and I'm pretty sure they don't struggle with the problem of constantly having to deal with magickers they are told OOCly to avoid. The tribe in mind has a very designated area of land, with NPCs that are visibly on the lookout, and trespassers are approached and (in my experience) told they're where they shouldn't be, and to get the hell out. This seems to work.
To resolve some of this in the new incarnation, I'd like to suggest:
:arrow: More NPC tribesmen at boundary locations, and more visible markers.
:arrow: Some NPCs that actively hunt, or are scripted to yell at intruders/toss the odd spear would be neat.
:arrow: Pushing back "guarded" territory boundaries so that they don't include things like commonly used roads or stops. This would let the tribes be territorial and the mundane players go about their lives without facing the offense of someone trespassing every time they're about their normal activity, as well as give unaffiliated rangers space to do their thing.
There are some tribes whose land is relatively open, unmarked, and caravans could be plowed through without ever recognizing they were trespassing. Foreign characters can't be expected to understand that there are virtual tribesmen around (if indeed there are) without any indication, especially if the players themselves are unaware.
However, there are also some tribes whose land you know you are on immediately, and I'm pretty sure they don't struggle with the problem of constantly having to deal with magickers they are told OOCly to avoid. The tribe in mind has a very designated area of land, with NPCs that are visibly on the lookout, and trespassers are approached and (in my experience) told they're where they shouldn't be, and to get the hell out. This seems to work.
To resolve some of this in the new incarnation, I'd like to suggest:
:arrow: More NPC tribesmen at boundary locations, and more visible markers.
:arrow: Some NPCs that actively hunt, or are scripted to yell at intruders/toss the odd spear would be neat.
:arrow: Pushing back "guarded" territory boundaries so that they don't include things like commonly used roads or stops. This would let the tribes be territorial and the mundane players go about their lives without facing the offense of someone trespassing every time they're about their normal activity, as well as give unaffiliated rangers space to do their thing.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jmordetsky on March 06, 2007, 05:06:02 PM
Post by: jmordetsky on March 06, 2007, 05:06:02 PM
As far as I can see every gripe and point on this board can be boiled to one sickness...
Diku mud combat doesn't fit Roleplaying games. You go from RP to Unreal Tournament as soon as combat starts and it sucks. You can't think you can't emote you can't do anything. People kill (or try to kill) mages (and each other out in the wastes) because they are afraid to die. If a mage floats into a room surrounded by fire, I do what any other sane person would do, I run.
As soon as someone casts or types kill on arm the entire game goes from well thought emotes to who can spam flee, type kill, kick, bash, disarm or cast fireball the fastest.
The only way to cure things to change kill so it doesn't implement a scrawl of actions, but rather becomes something that is D20-esque and semi-turn based and to implement a threaten command (which is really just making things turn based in specific instances)
List of things fixed by semi-turn based combat:
1 - Enter a Room and Flee Syndrome
2 - Cast and Flee Syndrome
3 - Enter a room and cast syndrome
4 - Walk-chasing around the rinth or cities
Diku mud combat doesn't fit Roleplaying games. You go from RP to Unreal Tournament as soon as combat starts and it sucks. You can't think you can't emote you can't do anything. People kill (or try to kill) mages (and each other out in the wastes) because they are afraid to die. If a mage floats into a room surrounded by fire, I do what any other sane person would do, I run.
As soon as someone casts or types kill on arm the entire game goes from well thought emotes to who can spam flee, type kill, kick, bash, disarm or cast fireball the fastest.
The only way to cure things to change kill so it doesn't implement a scrawl of actions, but rather becomes something that is D20-esque and semi-turn based and to implement a threaten command (which is really just making things turn based in specific instances)
List of things fixed by semi-turn based combat:
1 - Enter a Room and Flee Syndrome
2 - Cast and Flee Syndrome
3 - Enter a room and cast syndrome
4 - Walk-chasing around the rinth or cities
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Lizzie on March 06, 2007, 05:12:48 PM
Post by: Lizzie on March 06, 2007, 05:12:48 PM
You know Liquidshell, I've had this character I'm on now, since August. She's been exposed to magickers of all types, both in relative safety and in dire dangerous areas. Not -once- has any magicker threatened or attempted to cause her harm. My character isn't a buff anything - I spend MUCH more time roleplaying than I do utilizing my coded skills. I don't know much about how the magick system works, I only skimmed very briefly over it in the web docs just so I would have a feel for what any mundane character might know.
If you have experienced THAT much trouble with magickers, you might consider that maybe you're the one causing it. Sure there are magickers pretty much everywhere these days, and even my PC might think everyone who walks by is probably one of those nasty vile things, heh. But 1) that doesn't make it true, and 2) even if it is true, none of them are trying to hurt my PC so I don't really give a flying fig.
Why have I managed to have such a long-lived, UNbuffed character, exposed regularly to magickers during the usual mundane course of RP, and continue to enjoy my RP unscathed? Why do you have a buffed character, exposed to the same stuff (or similar) and come out of it all kinds of pissy and hateful?
My advice to you: Spend more time with RP, less time worrying about your skills. It sounds to me like you simply have decided in advance that magickers have to be dealt with via the coded skills and cannot be dealt with any other way, and those magicker PCs have discovered this about your PCs and have chosen their OWN characters' survival over yours.
L. Stanson
If you have experienced THAT much trouble with magickers, you might consider that maybe you're the one causing it. Sure there are magickers pretty much everywhere these days, and even my PC might think everyone who walks by is probably one of those nasty vile things, heh. But 1) that doesn't make it true, and 2) even if it is true, none of them are trying to hurt my PC so I don't really give a flying fig.
Why have I managed to have such a long-lived, UNbuffed character, exposed regularly to magickers during the usual mundane course of RP, and continue to enjoy my RP unscathed? Why do you have a buffed character, exposed to the same stuff (or similar) and come out of it all kinds of pissy and hateful?
My advice to you: Spend more time with RP, less time worrying about your skills. It sounds to me like you simply have decided in advance that magickers have to be dealt with via the coded skills and cannot be dealt with any other way, and those magicker PCs have discovered this about your PCs and have chosen their OWN characters' survival over yours.
L. Stanson
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Jherlen on March 06, 2007, 05:16:24 PM
Post by: Jherlen on March 06, 2007, 05:16:24 PM
Quote from: "Halaster"Quote from: "Ghost"
On the other hand, a friend of mine recently told me how fast he could become confident enough for survival: He said he branched 9 spells within 2 days of play time and nearly 1 day of it, he was linkdead due to power shortage.
Just something to note - that is good and intentional. We want mages to get survivable and semi-powerful in a decently short time. The reason is so that they will spend less time powergaming and more time roleplaying. Yes, they have to practice their magick to get good, but it doesn't take too terribly much time to practice. Generally speaking, mages are karma or special-app roles, so we usually trust the player enough to let them get that kind of power fairly quickly.
And by "that kind of power" I mean survivably-powerful, not take-over-the-world powerful.
I wanted to respond to this: though I have never played a mage myself, it's dismaying to hear their branch curve is so much shorter than a non-karma class' curve will be. I understand that we want people to be able to spend more time roleplaying, but I don't see why this should be true only for mage classes and not for anyone else.
It sounds almost as if it's permissable for a mage to be able to branch One Hit Pwnage Superspell in 5 or 10 days so that they can spend less time powergaming, but it still takes an assassin 20 or 50 days to be able to get backstab up to any kind of comparable power level. Yes, one is a karma guild and one isn't, but some players with karma will play nonkarma guilds, and some players without karma will be playing mages through special app.
Why not have the time it takes to become decently survivable be more or less the same for every guild?
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Jherlen on March 06, 2007, 05:27:44 PM
Post by: Jherlen on March 06, 2007, 05:27:44 PM
One more small thing to add about mages now that I think on it:
I had a PC who for a few months was in the Allanaki militia. It was an enjoyable clan and there seemed to be a lot going on, and I got to participate in several RPTs and such. The problem was that most of these RPTs were oriented around something magickal or other, and depended mostly on the templars and the gemmed they were working with at the time. The warrior/ranger militia soldiers got to come along, but our role mostly revolved around standing around and guarding things, and watching the templars and the gemmers fool around with magicky stuff. It made me question what role the militia were really needed for, unless a random tarantula or beetle should happen across us, in which case we were basically just front line fodder.
It would be nice if, in the new game, there was a more symbiotic relationship between magickers and mundane classes, rather than mages being unquestionably more powerful and more ideal for certain tasks in most situations. I don't necessarily want to see their power reduced, but I'd like to see limitations placed on them so that they'd be most effective and efficient when working with mundane guilds as well. I wouldn't want to see the role of the loner mage or the hidden coven of sekrit mages eliminated, but I like the idea of mages being integrated into mundane society a bit if they wanted to truly be super powerful.
I had a PC who for a few months was in the Allanaki militia. It was an enjoyable clan and there seemed to be a lot going on, and I got to participate in several RPTs and such. The problem was that most of these RPTs were oriented around something magickal or other, and depended mostly on the templars and the gemmed they were working with at the time. The warrior/ranger militia soldiers got to come along, but our role mostly revolved around standing around and guarding things, and watching the templars and the gemmers fool around with magicky stuff. It made me question what role the militia were really needed for, unless a random tarantula or beetle should happen across us, in which case we were basically just front line fodder.
It would be nice if, in the new game, there was a more symbiotic relationship between magickers and mundane classes, rather than mages being unquestionably more powerful and more ideal for certain tasks in most situations. I don't necessarily want to see their power reduced, but I'd like to see limitations placed on them so that they'd be most effective and efficient when working with mundane guilds as well. I wouldn't want to see the role of the loner mage or the hidden coven of sekrit mages eliminated, but I like the idea of mages being integrated into mundane society a bit if they wanted to truly be super powerful.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: bardbard#4 on March 06, 2007, 05:37:49 PM
Post by: bardbard#4 on March 06, 2007, 05:37:49 PM
Yep I agree, Jherlen. It would be great if magickers had a whole spectrum of social integration.
But I think for that to happen, we have to seriously rethink what a magicker is. Here's what I think should happen:
1) Erase all magick words from the helpfiles.
2) Don't give new magickers any ooc help in learning the spell words at all.
3) For elementalists, let the basic spells not require words at all. Remember, they have some sort of physiospiritual connection to the elemental planes. Why should they need words to cast their innate spells?
4) Broaden the range of initial spells, but reduce their potential function. Spread these spells out randomly among magickers so that each is somewhat different.
5) To get the higher level spells, which are invoked by spell words, this would require interaction with other magickers since there are no words in the documentation or helpfiles.
I think this would adequately stratify magickers so that they can be integrated into various societies in a variety of ways.
But I think for that to happen, we have to seriously rethink what a magicker is. Here's what I think should happen:
1) Erase all magick words from the helpfiles.
2) Don't give new magickers any ooc help in learning the spell words at all.
3) For elementalists, let the basic spells not require words at all. Remember, they have some sort of physiospiritual connection to the elemental planes. Why should they need words to cast their innate spells?
4) Broaden the range of initial spells, but reduce their potential function. Spread these spells out randomly among magickers so that each is somewhat different.
5) To get the higher level spells, which are invoked by spell words, this would require interaction with other magickers since there are no words in the documentation or helpfiles.
I think this would adequately stratify magickers so that they can be integrated into various societies in a variety of ways.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Rindan on March 06, 2007, 05:40:57 PM
Post by: Rindan on March 06, 2007, 05:40:57 PM
People are talking sideways at each other. There are exactly two complaints on this thread.
1) Magikers are too buff.
Nearly every response has addressed this point from one side or the other.
2) There are too many magikers.
No one has addressed this point.
Most people that complain that magikers are too strong are not really complaining that magikers are too strong. They are really complaining that there are too many of the little fuckers, and they think that there are too many BECAUSE they are too strong. They hope that if you just gimped magikers, people would play fewer magikers.
The issue isn't how strong magikers are. I don't mind strong magikers. I do mind how massively out of proportion they are to the rest of the player base. I would be willing to take the bet that there are more magikers and mindbenders online in Armageddon during peak, then there are city elves and dwarves combined.
I don't mind strong magikers. I don't find magikers killing people to even be all that much of a problem. What does bother me is that the second you get six inches deep into a plot, magikers start pouring out of the woodwork no matter how hard you try and avoid them. Seriously, I play the most boring mundane characters this world has ever seen, and sure as shit, as soon as I even sniff a plot by accident, I am up to my neck in stinking magik.
I don't mind the magiker plot here and there. I don't mind the occasional secret magiker. It doesn't bother me if these magikers can tear out my entrails and feed them back to me. It does bother me that it is hard to find an even vaguely mundane plot. I would merrily toss all of my karma if it capped off the magiker population at no more then 5% of the total active population.
The issue isn't the power of magikers. The issue is that there are too many of them. I really hope that 2.Arm finds a way to actively control the number of magikers running around. A new found love and openness to magikers combined with absolutely no barrier to playing one is just going to make me a sad fellow.
1) Magikers are too buff.
Nearly every response has addressed this point from one side or the other.
2) There are too many magikers.
No one has addressed this point.
Most people that complain that magikers are too strong are not really complaining that magikers are too strong. They are really complaining that there are too many of the little fuckers, and they think that there are too many BECAUSE they are too strong. They hope that if you just gimped magikers, people would play fewer magikers.
The issue isn't how strong magikers are. I don't mind strong magikers. I do mind how massively out of proportion they are to the rest of the player base. I would be willing to take the bet that there are more magikers and mindbenders online in Armageddon during peak, then there are city elves and dwarves combined.
I don't mind strong magikers. I don't find magikers killing people to even be all that much of a problem. What does bother me is that the second you get six inches deep into a plot, magikers start pouring out of the woodwork no matter how hard you try and avoid them. Seriously, I play the most boring mundane characters this world has ever seen, and sure as shit, as soon as I even sniff a plot by accident, I am up to my neck in stinking magik.
I don't mind the magiker plot here and there. I don't mind the occasional secret magiker. It doesn't bother me if these magikers can tear out my entrails and feed them back to me. It does bother me that it is hard to find an even vaguely mundane plot. I would merrily toss all of my karma if it capped off the magiker population at no more then 5% of the total active population.
The issue isn't the power of magikers. The issue is that there are too many of them. I really hope that 2.Arm finds a way to actively control the number of magikers running around. A new found love and openness to magikers combined with absolutely no barrier to playing one is just going to make me a sad fellow.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Tarx on March 06, 2007, 05:42:35 PM
Post by: Tarx on March 06, 2007, 05:42:35 PM
I had a PC a long time ago (years) within the Atrium. Even within Allanak as an Atrium Host for months, I never saw more than perhaps two or three gemmed. I never saw them cast spells. I never saw them do anything with magick code. I just saw them in the street. I never left 'nak, because it was "dangerous" in the wild. That's how I played that character. Yeah, there was one freaky weird magickal occurence at one point, but it didn't affect my character, just someone nearby.
Fast forward a couple years. I had another PC that was long-lived (over a year and a half before he bit the dust). Well-traveled, city-hater that was involved with many RPTs and plots. I recall some magick-related occurences over the course of the entire year and a half, but very few and far between the normal occurences.
I guess I see the world a lot differently than it has been portrayed by other posters. My characters knew to avoid magickers, so they did. Hence, I can't really argue with "magickers are too strong" or "there are too many magickers" when I haven't seen either point proven with my own characters.
Fast forward a couple years. I had another PC that was long-lived (over a year and a half before he bit the dust). Well-traveled, city-hater that was involved with many RPTs and plots. I recall some magick-related occurences over the course of the entire year and a half, but very few and far between the normal occurences.
I guess I see the world a lot differently than it has been portrayed by other posters. My characters knew to avoid magickers, so they did. Hence, I can't really argue with "magickers are too strong" or "there are too many magickers" when I haven't seen either point proven with my own characters.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Dresan on March 06, 2007, 05:43:57 PM
Post by: Dresan on March 06, 2007, 05:43:57 PM
Quote from: "Lizzie"I've had this character I'm on now, since August. She's been exposed to magickers of all types
This is the problem some people are trying to get at. ...
Like i said i personally don't care how powerful they are and to be honest i've seen alot more magickers die to mundanes then the other way around. Its true that unless you really provoke one, you can usually get out of it alive. However magickers and magick are supposed to be feared and rare, once there secret is out they'll be in trouble. To me though its not only the fact that there are more players playing magickers (and rather openly i might add) but that there are alot more magick influences plots right now. Of course this might just be due to the current times of the game...you know the end of the world and all. :cry:
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Armaddict on March 06, 2007, 05:59:58 PM
Post by: Armaddict on March 06, 2007, 05:59:58 PM
Uhm. Wow. Lots of 'discussion' since the last post.
I have no problems with how magickers are role-played. I have NO QUALMS...let me repeat that for emphasis...NO QUALMS whatsoever with how powerful mages are. That is, to me, how they're -supposed- to be. Mages are supposed to be big and scary, and they're supposed to be damn hard to kill. They require certain measures being taken, and if you want to hunt one alone, you're -probably- putting yourself in a damn bad spot. Not a good gamble.
I partially agree with LoD. Well, mostly. I think that the appearance of magick, the prevalance of magick, is just overdone. My hope for it has always been that it would remain a rare occurance to actually -see- one cast. The fear and wonder should be preserved. I'd always hoped that the mundane character would still be the preferred method of play due to the vast array of opportunities available that were unavailable to magickers.
The last statement above is not meant as an attack against those who highly prefer to play mages. I am just of the mind that it became too easy to solely the magick type, and I think it has ended up affecting the game. On one hand, we now have those who feel forced to -hate- magickers of all sorts with all their being, and the polar opposite of people who get to see first-hand the usefulness of magick in a variety of situations. I think the latter has become a little too common.
Now, PC's in the south almost always run into the gemmed all over the place. When someone shows distaste towards one wearing a gem, like the documentation says, not only does the gemmer usually feel justified to rebel and spit in their face, they sometimes gain support from other commoners. The documentation about how the gemmed are tolerated, not liked, has largely gone down the drain.
Likewise, magickers now find their way into every major plot. They are ultimately useful in most situations. They make things easy. It's unusual to see missions by the military in Allanak that is not supplemented by magickers, and they even receive a large deal of credit for wins, which brings about the question...when magickers make everything easier, what is the role of the mundane?
Seemingly, it has gotten to the point that every major plot -cannot- be completed with only the mundane. It requires magickal investigation or participation to overcome. This saddens me, as it makes those of us who enjoy the mundane enter roles where we may be treated well, but we are used as a secondary to the new primary.
I just want magick to become something that the public mundanes do not need to see all the time. I don't want it to be an omnipresent entity, showed through these gems that show up all over the place. I want it to be extremely powerful, and to be -mysterious- because of that power. If you use it in public, in front of the average commoner, who knows what will ensue? In immediate effect, every commoner should likely be afraid. But fear becomes a driving effect unless the power is great enough to overcome mass fear. Otherwise, fear may compel a large group to take care of it. And that's the situation I like. It shouldn't be this passing thing that you acknowledge or show understanding about.
Recently, I've heard a lot more of 'They can't help what they were born as, they are a good person.' I hate this. This is not earth. There isn't a notion of equality or empathy for something that is entirely different from you. I liked where Onimantu said they are a half-demon. They don't deserve, warrant, or provoke understanding from the average person. They provoke fear and caution. They are not useful objects to most. They are a liability, something that could turn and unleash untold destruction on you. They aren't something you want to go out of your way to befriend, you want to go out of your way to avoid it.
When we can finally play that out, the balance comes back. You are immensely powerful as a magicker, but your role-play is limited. You are living the being that most people will hate and try not to associate with. You can harass and destroy at will, but find it hard to create friendships or live in synergy with anyone else due to their lack of understanding.
I have no problems with how magickers are role-played. I have NO QUALMS...let me repeat that for emphasis...NO QUALMS whatsoever with how powerful mages are. That is, to me, how they're -supposed- to be. Mages are supposed to be big and scary, and they're supposed to be damn hard to kill. They require certain measures being taken, and if you want to hunt one alone, you're -probably- putting yourself in a damn bad spot. Not a good gamble.
I partially agree with LoD. Well, mostly. I think that the appearance of magick, the prevalance of magick, is just overdone. My hope for it has always been that it would remain a rare occurance to actually -see- one cast. The fear and wonder should be preserved. I'd always hoped that the mundane character would still be the preferred method of play due to the vast array of opportunities available that were unavailable to magickers.
The last statement above is not meant as an attack against those who highly prefer to play mages. I am just of the mind that it became too easy to solely the magick type, and I think it has ended up affecting the game. On one hand, we now have those who feel forced to -hate- magickers of all sorts with all their being, and the polar opposite of people who get to see first-hand the usefulness of magick in a variety of situations. I think the latter has become a little too common.
Now, PC's in the south almost always run into the gemmed all over the place. When someone shows distaste towards one wearing a gem, like the documentation says, not only does the gemmer usually feel justified to rebel and spit in their face, they sometimes gain support from other commoners. The documentation about how the gemmed are tolerated, not liked, has largely gone down the drain.
Likewise, magickers now find their way into every major plot. They are ultimately useful in most situations. They make things easy. It's unusual to see missions by the military in Allanak that is not supplemented by magickers, and they even receive a large deal of credit for wins, which brings about the question...when magickers make everything easier, what is the role of the mundane?
Seemingly, it has gotten to the point that every major plot -cannot- be completed with only the mundane. It requires magickal investigation or participation to overcome. This saddens me, as it makes those of us who enjoy the mundane enter roles where we may be treated well, but we are used as a secondary to the new primary.
I just want magick to become something that the public mundanes do not need to see all the time. I don't want it to be an omnipresent entity, showed through these gems that show up all over the place. I want it to be extremely powerful, and to be -mysterious- because of that power. If you use it in public, in front of the average commoner, who knows what will ensue? In immediate effect, every commoner should likely be afraid. But fear becomes a driving effect unless the power is great enough to overcome mass fear. Otherwise, fear may compel a large group to take care of it. And that's the situation I like. It shouldn't be this passing thing that you acknowledge or show understanding about.
Recently, I've heard a lot more of 'They can't help what they were born as, they are a good person.' I hate this. This is not earth. There isn't a notion of equality or empathy for something that is entirely different from you. I liked where Onimantu said they are a half-demon. They don't deserve, warrant, or provoke understanding from the average person. They provoke fear and caution. They are not useful objects to most. They are a liability, something that could turn and unleash untold destruction on you. They aren't something you want to go out of your way to befriend, you want to go out of your way to avoid it.
When we can finally play that out, the balance comes back. You are immensely powerful as a magicker, but your role-play is limited. You are living the being that most people will hate and try not to associate with. You can harass and destroy at will, but find it hard to create friendships or live in synergy with anyone else due to their lack of understanding.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LoD on March 06, 2007, 06:20:16 PM
Post by: LoD on March 06, 2007, 06:20:16 PM
Quote from: "Rindan"There are exactly two complaints on this thread.
1) Magikers are too buff.
2) There are too many magikers.
No one has addressed this point.
There is actually a third problem.
3. Magickers are too often forced into roles and environments that encourage and almost mandate negative, hostile, and often fatal interaction with mundanes.
Imagine a time before the Cataclysm. Tuluk and Allanak both tolerate magickers in their midst. They are allowed to rent property, have families, practice magicks in temples, be employed, and lawfully exist within either city-state.
Let's compare them to an ant farm. Occasionally one might escape and be found wandering on a kitchen corner, but for the most part they just go about their busienss quietly, keeping to themselves. There may be 100 of them, but they aren't constantly in your face. They have a home of their own, and little need or want of anyone else. If one were to ask them if they thought they had an "ant problem" they would say no.
Now someone goes and destroys the city, er...ant farm. Now the exact same number of ants are in existence, but they are all over the house. They're on countertops, eating jello, crawling in bedsheets, moving through the curtains, all over the cabinets...everywhere. They're in places they never were before (i.e. tablelands, tribal areas, etc...) and they are causing all kinds of grief.
Now, without increasing the number of ants by even one lowly critter, the very same owner of the house would likely say, "I have a HUGE ant problem!" The only thing that has changed was the distribution. Not the power. Not the number. The distribution.
This simple event has had an impact on the entire Known World. The distribution of magickers has soared in areas that used to hardly ever see them. People are being "affected" by magickers within cultures and parts of the game that never did before, and it creates the illusion of magickers crawling all over the woodwork.
If magickers were again contained, given their own space within society, and made part of the normal makeup of the gameworld, my guess is you would have an exponential decrease in complaints about them.
-LoD
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Doppelganger on March 06, 2007, 07:05:51 PM
Post by: Doppelganger on March 06, 2007, 07:05:51 PM
Quote from: "LoD"Quote from: "Rindan"There are exactly two complaints on this thread.
1) Magikers are too buff.
2) There are too many magikers.
No one has addressed this point.
There is actually a third problem.
3. Magickers are too often forced into roles and environments that encourage and almost mandate negative, hostile, and often fatal interaction with mundanes.
Absolutely. That is why I'd like Rindan's idea from Reborn magicker thread taken to extreme, in effect of making magickers generally acceptable, without weakening them.
There is no chance that staff will deal with problems 1 and 2, as they have stated many times that there are no such problems at all. But I've not yet abandoned hope that they will direct magick into more constructive way, so magickers would have something else to do other then screwing mundanes.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Dakurus on March 06, 2007, 07:53:05 PM
Post by: Dakurus on March 06, 2007, 07:53:05 PM
It's a mix and match, of desires along with realities.
On one hand, we want players to be able to play whatever class they enjoy playing, as long as they qualify, with regards to karma/trust.
On the other, it's all of our jobs (players and staff) to try and bring the world alive along the lines of how it's documented. Doing our best to keep this environment consistent and in line allows people to better understand the world around them, and play their roles to their fullest.
In some ways, the two above can conflict.
Too many or too powerful of a particular class can very much effect a PC perception of the world. This can be true of magical classes or mundanes. This can also be true of preset roles, though we have control and can limit these.
You can easily search the GDB to find old threads about this, or about limits. I'm not sure a robust or successful solution has ever been formulated that while still a compromise, achieves most of the major goals. Because of that, it's a good discussion topic.
Some food for thought that might be used in a combined solution:
More robust/representation of non-PC forces to make things more obvious.
Allow the environment/documention/perceptions of the world to change as PC's do.
Create some sort of limits (overhead?) on various classes, or powers of classes (even a few very very good pickpockets can significantly change how the world works/feels)
Modify the environment/documentation to be more general to accept highest variable levels of classes or particular situations (more co-dependence, inter relation)
Others
On one hand, we want players to be able to play whatever class they enjoy playing, as long as they qualify, with regards to karma/trust.
On the other, it's all of our jobs (players and staff) to try and bring the world alive along the lines of how it's documented. Doing our best to keep this environment consistent and in line allows people to better understand the world around them, and play their roles to their fullest.
In some ways, the two above can conflict.
Too many or too powerful of a particular class can very much effect a PC perception of the world. This can be true of magical classes or mundanes. This can also be true of preset roles, though we have control and can limit these.
You can easily search the GDB to find old threads about this, or about limits. I'm not sure a robust or successful solution has ever been formulated that while still a compromise, achieves most of the major goals. Because of that, it's a good discussion topic.
Some food for thought that might be used in a combined solution:
More robust/representation of non-PC forces to make things more obvious.
Allow the environment/documention/perceptions of the world to change as PC's do.
Create some sort of limits (overhead?) on various classes, or powers of classes (even a few very very good pickpockets can significantly change how the world works/feels)
Modify the environment/documentation to be more general to accept highest variable levels of classes or particular situations (more co-dependence, inter relation)
Others
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: bloodfromstone on March 07, 2007, 12:33:22 AM
Post by: bloodfromstone on March 07, 2007, 12:33:22 AM
QuoteMagickers cannot interact. Period.
My exact problem with 90% of magickers.
I like super powerful mages, but, as many others have stated, there are too many of them. Emoting pissing yourself and cowering gets old - really old - after the third time your character is involved in a super high magick RPT in which the city is nearly exploded and appoximately the fifteenth time of running into a spooky mysterious magicker. Maybe that is why people choose to draw and attack, spam walk away, or whatever reaction that always gets brought up when mundanes complain. Personally, I get pretty tired of roleplaying the secret mysteriousness and scariness of magick for the hundredth time...
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LiquidShell on March 07, 2007, 01:19:10 AM
Post by: LiquidShell on March 07, 2007, 01:19:10 AM
Yeah, was a bit trollish, guess I was getting carried away.
ANYWAY, Lizzie, this has nothing to do with me, so save your criticisms of me for someone else, I'm just expressing my feelings of magickers. I honestly don't care that your character is unbuffed, not code using, and getting along fine with magickers, many players don't have that option, and many players by necessity are forced to be aggressive to them.
To me, the whole magicker thing seems to eat away at the grit of the story. In this beautifully horrible place a person has to scrap for every meal they get, search around in particularly hostile places for water, or pay some extreme prices. You throw three magickers together you can have all seven foodgroups, fifteen flavors of water, and mounts that never get tired. Is that grit? I don't believe so. When I think of grit, I don't think of Merlin. I think Grog Skullsplitter the axe swinging mul who's mother died in childbirth because he was so huge. I just don't buy the magicker thing at all, too many even if there were two, I'd rather see them as npc's, and I don't think they bring much to the game other than over simplifying it.
ANYWAY, Lizzie, this has nothing to do with me, so save your criticisms of me for someone else, I'm just expressing my feelings of magickers. I honestly don't care that your character is unbuffed, not code using, and getting along fine with magickers, many players don't have that option, and many players by necessity are forced to be aggressive to them.
To me, the whole magicker thing seems to eat away at the grit of the story. In this beautifully horrible place a person has to scrap for every meal they get, search around in particularly hostile places for water, or pay some extreme prices. You throw three magickers together you can have all seven foodgroups, fifteen flavors of water, and mounts that never get tired. Is that grit? I don't believe so. When I think of grit, I don't think of Merlin. I think Grog Skullsplitter the axe swinging mul who's mother died in childbirth because he was so huge. I just don't buy the magicker thing at all, too many even if there were two, I'd rather see them as npc's, and I don't think they bring much to the game other than over simplifying it.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Tarx on March 07, 2007, 04:05:21 PM
Post by: Tarx on March 07, 2007, 04:05:21 PM
Quote...and many players by necessity are forced to be aggressive to them [magickers].
Well, I sort of gathered from this thread, player experience, and staff opinion that this is not the case. But tomato, tomato, right?
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Marauder Moe on March 07, 2007, 04:20:17 PM
Post by: Marauder Moe on March 07, 2007, 04:20:17 PM
Magickers can't be gritty? Yeesh. You mention that copious food and free mounts are the antithesis of grit, while your hypothetical mul is the height of grit just because his mom is dead? In Arm, very often Grog Skullsplitter is going to be very well pampered and fed by his Borsail handlers between arena matches. Meanwhile, a magicker might get discovered and suddenly he has to flee the city and live in some dank cave. In Allanak, they are sometimes forced to slog through the sewers and hunt nilazis as ordered by a templar. Gemmed and ungemmed might sometimes be civil to eachother, but try having a love affair between a magicker and a mundane. That will get very gritty. Looking back, I can think of many dirty rotten awful disgusting things I've seen magickers have to do to get by.
Grit isn't just poverty and starvation. Magickers don't all have it easy, even the kind that don't need food.
Grit isn't just poverty and starvation. Magickers don't all have it easy, even the kind that don't need food.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Melody on March 07, 2007, 04:30:23 PM
Post by: Melody on March 07, 2007, 04:30:23 PM
Quote from: "Lizzie"Not -once- has any magicker threatened or attempted to cause her harm. My character isn't a buff anything - I spend MUCH more time roleplaying than I do utilizing my coded skills. I don't know much about how the magick system works, I only skimmed very briefly over it in the web docs just so I would have a feel for what any mundane character might know.
If you have experienced THAT much trouble with magickers, you might consider that maybe you're the one causing it. Sure there are magickers pretty much everywhere these days, and even my PC might think everyone who walks by is probably one of those nasty vile things, heh. But 1) that doesn't make it true, and 2) even if it is true, none of them are trying to hurt my PC so I don't really give a flying fig.
I only ever play city bound characters. They are never buff and none of them can really tell one end of a sword from another. Even my shortest lived character goes way pass 10 days playing time (save the one character I had in Tuluk, but I retired her out of boredom), they often have sustained interaction with no less than 3 mages and sometimes a couple of psi.
It's definitely not because I go out of my way to look for them. As soon as my character uncover plots and gets involved... they would come looking for me. Occasionally, all I ever have to do sit solo rp with myself while crafting. It's really difficult to rp a mortal fear of a whiran when your character knew a sorcerer and a psi are just around the corner, oh, and a couple of drovians are stalking you at the same time.
I adore mages. I like that they are powerful. None of them are badly played, too. There are rarely any aggressive encounters even though we are oppositions. In fact, all of them are excellent roleplayers. But there are just so many of them. As someone already mentioned, they are all over the plots, so it's nigh on impossible to do anything without stumbling across them.
I don't think it's a matter of roleplay style, or maybe we should all stay away from plots, in which case nothing can really be done.
And I think Ghost is right. And LoD, too.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: moab on March 07, 2007, 04:41:22 PM
Post by: moab on March 07, 2007, 04:41:22 PM
Hey, I justed remembered an interesting moment in one of my character's lives that I think demonstrates a point made by other mage-friendly characters.
My gemmed dude was hanging outside. Unknown to anyone an invisible POWERFUL mage was chatting with him.
An elf runs by and decides to attack (randomly, I guess, after checking me out). Boom. Unconscious.
Moments later, his buddy runs into the room (who woulda guessed) and pulls his blade. Boom. Dealt with.
The mage I was standing with had a years of experience and had planned his reactions over and over again. He knew exactly what he needed to do and when.
On top of it all he emoted and talked.
Warriors: poor planning.
Mages: all planning.
My gemmed dude was hanging outside. Unknown to anyone an invisible POWERFUL mage was chatting with him.
An elf runs by and decides to attack (randomly, I guess, after checking me out). Boom. Unconscious.
Moments later, his buddy runs into the room (who woulda guessed) and pulls his blade. Boom. Dealt with.
The mage I was standing with had a years of experience and had planned his reactions over and over again. He knew exactly what he needed to do and when.
On top of it all he emoted and talked.
Warriors: poor planning.
Mages: all planning.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Bebop on March 07, 2007, 05:05:34 PM
Post by: Bebop on March 07, 2007, 05:05:34 PM
moabs post reminds me of something similiar I saw once.
I was talking to an invisible mage, ranger has scan on, walks in an immediately with no questions (or emotes) whips out his weapons and attacks said gicker.
Needless to say the mage did not hesitate to prompty BBQPK him.
The severe problem as I see it, is not with magickers but with how people choose to interact and RP their interaction with magickers.
I was talking to an invisible mage, ranger has scan on, walks in an immediately with no questions (or emotes) whips out his weapons and attacks said gicker.
Needless to say the mage did not hesitate to prompty BBQPK him.
The severe problem as I see it, is not with magickers but with how people choose to interact and RP their interaction with magickers.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LoD on March 07, 2007, 05:25:51 PM
Post by: LoD on March 07, 2007, 05:25:51 PM
Quote from: "Bebop"moabs post reminds me of something similiar I saw once.
I was talking to an invisible mage, ranger has scan on, walks in an immediately with no questions (or emotes) whips out his weapons and attacks said gicker.
Needless to say the mage did not hesitate to prompty BBQPK him.
The severe problem as I see it, is not with magickers but with how people choose to interact and RP their interaction with magickers.
It's somewhat disturbing that this invisible magicker was in such an accessible location as to encounter not only you, but some random ranger waltzing through the area. I don't know the details or geography of where you were, but if the magicker (and yourself) were being careful about meeting, I doubt that situation would've happened.
Perhaps the person walking in thought you were going to be attacked and thought they'd help. Perhaps they'd been ganked by a magicker somewhere with their last character without an emotes. I know that has certainly happened to me, despite the arguement that karma breeds responsbile play. Or perhpas this guy was just a noob and thought, "Watch me wtfpwn this finger wiggler!".
I don't know the whole situation, but there is more "wrong" with that entire situation than the ranger's actions. Just as there is more wrong with the roles of magick in the present game than simply how mundane characters react and treat them.
I'm glad that Apocolyptic Cow caught onto the general issue I have with magick in the world, and hope that it's something which can be built upon in the forthcoming game. Magick is awesome. Magick should be rare and mysterious. And Magick should be woven into the framework of the game in such a way that its presence more often cooperates with mundane plots rather than trumps them.
It's also my hope that players exercise their own form of self restraint in special apping or consistently playing magicker characters, especially as a means of avoiding the time investment required to reach a modicum of survivability and/or power. I don't believe the changes made to mages that allow them to quickly gain their spells is necessarily the best move, especially their more lethal abilities.
I'd be much more in favor of seeing mages granted a much greater degree of survivability without the teeth. Give them ways to avoid, escape, or withstand mundane attacks without simultaneously granting them the aggressive tools to kill. Let those powers develop more slowly, and I think you will see just as quick a rate of return on mundanes not hunting mages.
Make mages require group coordination to take down not because they can kill you so quickly, but because you can't actually take them down by yourself. Then they wouldn't be worth attacking mindlessly because you nearly couldn't manage it alone. I'm not advocating mages be stripped of every offensive capability, but it might keep the folks away if the system was tweaked a bit in this direction as well.
-LoD
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Hymwen on March 07, 2007, 05:27:53 PM
Post by: Hymwen on March 07, 2007, 05:27:53 PM
I started a long, rambling post but decided that my opinion boils down to this:
They're not necessarily too powerful, but the power they can achieve is gained too easily. And there are too many of them.
They're not necessarily too powerful, but the power they can achieve is gained too easily. And there are too many of them.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: spawnloser on March 07, 2007, 05:30:15 PM
Post by: spawnloser on March 07, 2007, 05:30:15 PM
Quote from: "LiquidShell"Yeah, was a bit trollish, guess I was getting carried away.Yes. Yes, you were.
Quote from: "LiquidShell"ANYWAY, Lizzie, this has nothing to do with me, so save your criticisms of me for someone else, I'm just expressing my feelings of magickers.Do you realize how you contradicted yourself in this statement? Honestly, it's not about you but about your feelings? That means it's about you.
Quote from: "LiquidShell"I honestly don't care that your character is unbuffed, not code using, and getting along fine with magickers, many players don't have that option, and many players by necessity are forced to be aggressive to them.Yes they do have the option. Most players of magickers will give you an option. Deal with the magicker as your character probably should, which means plenty of being scared and cowering, or go head to head. In a head to head match up, magickers often have the upper hand, as they should have...according to the documenation. You're not being forced to be aggressive. You are choosing to be aggressive instead of a scared twit running away, begging for your life or simply passing out.
As many have said, interaction with magickers tends to be a problem only when the problem is caused by the mundane. Magicker characters are played by players that the staff has given some trust to. Mundanes are played by those same players...and the players that haven't gained enough trust with the staff for interacting as they should with the world (which means other PCs too) around them.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Forest Junkie on March 07, 2007, 05:31:53 PM
Post by: Forest Junkie on March 07, 2007, 05:31:53 PM
Quote from: "Hymwen"They're not necessarily too powerful, but the power they can achieve is gained too easily.
Read Halaster's post regarding this. I think it might help you understand why certain things are this way.
Quote from: "Hymwen"And there are too many of them.
Just like there were too many d.elves in the game at one time? Half-elves? Pickpockets? Muls? Burglars spam stealing everything from rooms and taverns, including the couches. The list goes on and on.
Mages and their numbers will dwindle, just as the numbers of every other guild/race has in the past. Things are cyclic.
Can't we all just stop whining and play the game? Sheesh, there's only a few months of it left. Does it really fuckin' matter?
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Malken on March 07, 2007, 05:33:44 PM
Post by: Malken on March 07, 2007, 05:33:44 PM
It's nothing surprising.. I've met an invisible magicker having a friendly chat with another character right in the middle of the road not too long ago. The visible guy even looked surprised to see me.
I didn't walked in and attacked the guy but I knew better than to stick around. Unfortunately, the guy saw my description and what followed was a series of , "You've seen me with the magicker-now you must die" events..
What I would like to see is something like this.. If there's 300 active characters in the game at the moment, only 10% or so of them should be allowed to play magickers at any given time. That means that no more than 30 magickers in total should be allowed in the game.
Once one of the magicker dies, if someone is currently creating a character and there's a spot left and he has the karma, then that option will be open, if not, it just won't be open and they'll have to play a mundane or another sort of special class..
Is it a bit unfair? Sure, but at least it keeps the numbers in check. You say, "Well, what if that person just stops playing, won't he or she keep a slot to herself?" Well, no, because that person won't be part of the 'active users' anymore, so that percentage will go up or down depending on the number of players currently playing during that week or month..
I didn't walked in and attacked the guy but I knew better than to stick around. Unfortunately, the guy saw my description and what followed was a series of , "You've seen me with the magicker-now you must die" events..
What I would like to see is something like this.. If there's 300 active characters in the game at the moment, only 10% or so of them should be allowed to play magickers at any given time. That means that no more than 30 magickers in total should be allowed in the game.
Once one of the magicker dies, if someone is currently creating a character and there's a spot left and he has the karma, then that option will be open, if not, it just won't be open and they'll have to play a mundane or another sort of special class..
Is it a bit unfair? Sure, but at least it keeps the numbers in check. You say, "Well, what if that person just stops playing, won't he or she keep a slot to herself?" Well, no, because that person won't be part of the 'active users' anymore, so that percentage will go up or down depending on the number of players currently playing during that week or month..
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LoD on March 07, 2007, 05:42:38 PM
Post by: LoD on March 07, 2007, 05:42:38 PM
Quote from: "Forest Junkie"Can't we all just stop whining and play the game? Sheesh, there's only a few months of it left. Does it really fuckin' matter?
People aren't whining, they're discussing a pertinent topic regarding their perception of issues with magick in the current world and how it will translate over to the new game. They've expressed opinions and suggestions for how magick could be offered a better role within the framework of the game, along with a model change to allow some of the rarity and mystery back into the world.
If you don't have any constructive to add, you should really take your own advice.
-LoD
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Forest Junkie on March 07, 2007, 05:45:43 PM
Post by: Forest Junkie on March 07, 2007, 05:45:43 PM
Quote from: "LoD"If you don't have any constructive to add...
I believe I did add something constructive. It was something to the effect of "stop whining and just play the game, enjoy what little time we have left".
I'm done, bye bye.
Title: Heh
Post by: Dakkon Black on March 07, 2007, 05:53:21 PM
Post by: Dakkon Black on March 07, 2007, 05:53:21 PM
I friggen love magickers, and this comes from somebody who had an absolute destroyer of a giant killed by one without any noticeable reason or emote.
Pretty much just out of the blue, cast, cast, cast die.
That's the danger of stepping out of the gates, every time you do it. I still think that mage was a useless turkey, and think considering the amount of control he had over the situation he could have at least emoted. But I don't want to quash things that are powerful.
This is like saying we need Mek's to hit for less damage. It does seem at times though that every single plot going on is happening because of an uber defiler or mage. I'd definately like to see the new arm focus more on the mundane. Perhaps we should have a limit to active powerhouses?
Pretty much just out of the blue, cast, cast, cast die.
That's the danger of stepping out of the gates, every time you do it. I still think that mage was a useless turkey, and think considering the amount of control he had over the situation he could have at least emoted. But I don't want to quash things that are powerful.
This is like saying we need Mek's to hit for less damage. It does seem at times though that every single plot going on is happening because of an uber defiler or mage. I'd definately like to see the new arm focus more on the mundane. Perhaps we should have a limit to active powerhouses?
Title: Re: Heh
Post by: Fathi on March 07, 2007, 06:55:15 PM
Post by: Fathi on March 07, 2007, 06:55:15 PM
Quote from: "Dakkon Black"
This is like saying we need Mek's to hit for less damage. It does seem at times though that every single plot going on is happening because of an uber defiler or mage. I'd definately like to see the new arm focus more on the mundane. Perhaps we should have a limit to active powerhouses?
The only thing is, meks are less common than scrabs and beetles.
I definitely agree with you on the point that it seems like you have to fight to get RPTs and plots that aren't even just magick-heavy, but magick-dominated-and-driven. Of course, the events related to the end of the world are probably going to be magick out the ass. I don't like that, but it's realistic for the setting and I trust the staff will at least try to make it fun for those of us who don't want to play magicker characters.
As someone who joined Arm over other games because I don't like high fantasy and I didn't want to run into mages around every corner, this has killed a large chunk of my interest in the game.
And this is coming from someone with a tendency to actively avoid magickal plots to begin with. It's one thing to say, "Well if you don't like mages, don't play in X location," but when mages are ridiculously prevalent in every corner of the map and they make up a large portion of the playerbase and eclipse or negate the role of mundanes in almost every plot you get involved in, it's far easier said than done.
Title: Re: Heh
Post by: Krath on March 07, 2007, 08:01:08 PM
Post by: Krath on March 07, 2007, 08:01:08 PM
Quote from: "Fathi"Quote from: "Dakkon Black"
This is like saying we need Mek's to hit for less damage. It does seem at times though that every single plot going on is happening because of an uber defiler or mage. I'd definately like to see the new arm focus more on the mundane. Perhaps we should have a limit to active powerhouses?
The only thing is, meks are less common than scrabs and beetles.
I definitely agree with you on the point that it seems like you have to fight to get RPTs and plots that aren't even just magick-heavy, but magick-dominated-and-driven. Of course, the events related to the end of the world are probably going to be magick out the ass. I don't like that, but it's realistic for the setting and I trust the staff will at least try to make it fun for those of us who don't want to play magicker characters.
As someone who joined Arm over other games because I don't like high fantasy and I didn't want to run into mages around every corner, this has killed a large chunk of my interest in the game.
And this is coming from someone with a tendency to actively avoid magickal plots to begin with. It's one thing to say, "Well if you don't like mages, don't play in X location," but when mages are ridiculously prevalent in every corner of the map and they make up a large portion of the playerbase and eclipse or negate the role of mundanes in almost every plot you get involved in, it's far easier said than done.
Ditto
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: bloodfromstone on March 07, 2007, 08:43:36 PM
Post by: bloodfromstone on March 07, 2007, 08:43:36 PM
Fathi's post is a good one.
The presence of mages in every plot and every location pretty much makes mundanes useless. Who needs an assassin when we have a mage? Scout? Mage. Transportation? Mage. I understand they should be better than mundanes and more powerful and all that, but there has to be some place for mundanes in the world, other than standing around and gossiping about the latest magick attack and waiting to be ganked by a magicker.
Less magickers, please. I had a character not long ago that, literally, more of his close circle of interaction turned out to be magickers than not.
"Hey, how's Aide X?" "Oh, she was a magicker, we got rid of her." "Oh, no. At least you have Aide Y." "Magicker." "Crap. I'll tell Lord Templar Z's aide to keep a look out for a new aide." "Oh, he was a magicker, too." "Private A?" "Magicker." (actual titles and such altered a bit)
I know this is partially just bad luck, but to slog through that while trying to protect friend #2 from getting whipped away by the second or third Whiran before getting killed by a magicker himself.... Good lord. Enough. Magick is neat and all, but I think I might wretch if I see another spell cast for the next little while.
The presence of mages in every plot and every location pretty much makes mundanes useless. Who needs an assassin when we have a mage? Scout? Mage. Transportation? Mage. I understand they should be better than mundanes and more powerful and all that, but there has to be some place for mundanes in the world, other than standing around and gossiping about the latest magick attack and waiting to be ganked by a magicker.
Less magickers, please. I had a character not long ago that, literally, more of his close circle of interaction turned out to be magickers than not.
"Hey, how's Aide X?" "Oh, she was a magicker, we got rid of her." "Oh, no. At least you have Aide Y." "Magicker." "Crap. I'll tell Lord Templar Z's aide to keep a look out for a new aide." "Oh, he was a magicker, too." "Private A?" "Magicker." (actual titles and such altered a bit)
I know this is partially just bad luck, but to slog through that while trying to protect friend #2 from getting whipped away by the second or third Whiran before getting killed by a magicker himself.... Good lord. Enough. Magick is neat and all, but I think I might wretch if I see another spell cast for the next little while.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Nao on March 07, 2007, 09:14:21 PM
Post by: Nao on March 07, 2007, 09:14:21 PM
I think you guys a little spoiled.
Are magickers really invading all plots, or would at least some of the plots not be happening at all without the magickers? Would you rather sit about and twiddle your thumbs than have those plots that wouldn't exist at all without the magickers?
I'm usually happy about anything happening at all, this might be connected to off-peak play times. Until I played a magicker myself and went actively looking for other 'gickers, my encounters with magick were marginal.
And if they weren't... Where is the problem of having to do with them in one way or another? Your best friend turns out to be a gicker...? Kill them, help them hide, sell them out to a templar or anyone that will pay, threaten them, scare the hell out of them with little hints, share a secret. Run and never talk to them again, but don't tell anyone else, either.
Catch someone casting in a cave out there? Basically the same options as above.
Getting bullied by some invisible mage? Have a nervous breakdown. Try to find out who this could have been and pay people for any information whatsoever about magickers that are around or magick in general. Do a well-organized mage hunt. Suspect random people and stalk them or have someone stalk them, whatever is appropriate for your character.
Make a character that fanatically hates everything even vaguely related to magick and see where that leads to.
There are so many possibilities for roleplay and interaction. I can't believe that some of you apparently would rather keep encounters with mages to a minimum and miss out on all this.
Are magickers really invading all plots, or would at least some of the plots not be happening at all without the magickers? Would you rather sit about and twiddle your thumbs than have those plots that wouldn't exist at all without the magickers?
I'm usually happy about anything happening at all, this might be connected to off-peak play times. Until I played a magicker myself and went actively looking for other 'gickers, my encounters with magick were marginal.
And if they weren't... Where is the problem of having to do with them in one way or another? Your best friend turns out to be a gicker...? Kill them, help them hide, sell them out to a templar or anyone that will pay, threaten them, scare the hell out of them with little hints, share a secret. Run and never talk to them again, but don't tell anyone else, either.
Catch someone casting in a cave out there? Basically the same options as above.
Getting bullied by some invisible mage? Have a nervous breakdown. Try to find out who this could have been and pay people for any information whatsoever about magickers that are around or magick in general. Do a well-organized mage hunt. Suspect random people and stalk them or have someone stalk them, whatever is appropriate for your character.
Make a character that fanatically hates everything even vaguely related to magick and see where that leads to.
There are so many possibilities for roleplay and interaction. I can't believe that some of you apparently would rather keep encounters with mages to a minimum and miss out on all this.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: bloodfromstone on March 07, 2007, 09:33:21 PM
Post by: bloodfromstone on March 07, 2007, 09:33:21 PM
A major part of the problem, in my opinion, Nao, is that those responses you give are great. They're perfect for magickers in the documented setting. They are not really even realistic responses to magickers in the game as is, however. If we had nervous breakdowns every time an invisible mage harassed us, I think more of the population would be insane than not.
I'd love for freaking out, paranoia, etc to be the logical response to a magicker encounter. But I don't think anyone can really expect anyone to react this way when they're all over to place.
I'd love for freaking out, paranoia, etc to be the logical response to a magicker encounter. But I don't think anyone can really expect anyone to react this way when they're all over to place.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: X-D on March 07, 2007, 09:49:30 PM
Post by: X-D on March 07, 2007, 09:49:30 PM
I'm with Fathi and others. Current mage numbers, Silly.
Also, I'd like to say, I have seen some well played...currently, and some I think are less well played...but maybe because the apparent objectives for many of them are just so OLD and TIRED.
I AM THE SELF APPOINTED PROTECTER OF (Insert proper noun here) AND THOUGH I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT YOU...UM, Your here, SO ,um I NOW HAVE REASON TO KILL YOU Ya! WITHOUT ANY OTHER INTERACTION, EMOTE, ANYTHING!!! Cept they don't even say that.
One word LAME!
I mean really, I swear I have seen that exact deal on more then 200 pc mages and maybe nearly that many npc mages in the last 4 years.
Its OLD, makes me gag IRL
And the sad thing about it is that its the karma 4+ PCs that do it the most.
Not too horribly long ago I ran a magicker who's only purpose was to make people fear and respect his kind, and even he killed less then half the PC's he dealt with, and even then the ones he did was dependant on thier actions. He knew he was pretty safe weather he was visible or not. And so, "I" Took the time to interact with victems and such as much as possible. EVEN with the PCs who attacked him without emote or warning, yes, even they got as nice a death as I could craft, sometimes quick sometimes slow.
Sorry, I ramble. My points are this.
Powerful high karma mages, if they are going to interact with other pcs, even just to raid, PLEASE, do so with more then coded spells.
There are way too many mages.
There are way too many mage plots.
Stop with the old tired cliche objective/focus/reason to PK..stop protecting shit that does not need protecting from the people who are not hurting it. Hell, compared to that a mage who was simply a homicidal maniac would be refreshing.
As to Nao post, There are so many of them that none of your suggestions are even fun anymore, with a single PC, I've done them ALL so many times its boring...which is what Fathi and others are saying as well...even LoD.
Lets go bag us a scrab...four rooms out the gates "magickal stuff" Oh, great, ANOTHER magicker...fuck it, turn around head to nearest quit safe room.........
Also, I'd like to say, I have seen some well played...currently, and some I think are less well played...but maybe because the apparent objectives for many of them are just so OLD and TIRED.
I AM THE SELF APPOINTED PROTECTER OF (Insert proper noun here) AND THOUGH I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT YOU...UM, Your here, SO ,um I NOW HAVE REASON TO KILL YOU Ya! WITHOUT ANY OTHER INTERACTION, EMOTE, ANYTHING!!! Cept they don't even say that.
One word LAME!
I mean really, I swear I have seen that exact deal on more then 200 pc mages and maybe nearly that many npc mages in the last 4 years.
Its OLD, makes me gag IRL
And the sad thing about it is that its the karma 4+ PCs that do it the most.
Not too horribly long ago I ran a magicker who's only purpose was to make people fear and respect his kind, and even he killed less then half the PC's he dealt with, and even then the ones he did was dependant on thier actions. He knew he was pretty safe weather he was visible or not. And so, "I" Took the time to interact with victems and such as much as possible. EVEN with the PCs who attacked him without emote or warning, yes, even they got as nice a death as I could craft, sometimes quick sometimes slow.
Sorry, I ramble. My points are this.
Powerful high karma mages, if they are going to interact with other pcs, even just to raid, PLEASE, do so with more then coded spells.
There are way too many mages.
There are way too many mage plots.
Stop with the old tired cliche objective/focus/reason to PK..stop protecting shit that does not need protecting from the people who are not hurting it. Hell, compared to that a mage who was simply a homicidal maniac would be refreshing.
As to Nao post, There are so many of them that none of your suggestions are even fun anymore, with a single PC, I've done them ALL so many times its boring...which is what Fathi and others are saying as well...even LoD.
Lets go bag us a scrab...four rooms out the gates "magickal stuff" Oh, great, ANOTHER magicker...fuck it, turn around head to nearest quit safe room.........
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Fathi on March 07, 2007, 11:00:28 PM
Post by: Fathi on March 07, 2007, 11:00:28 PM
Quote from: "Nao"I can't believe that some of you apparently would rather keep encounters with mages to a minimum and miss out on all this.
It isn't wanting to keep magickal encounters "to a minimum." It's just wanting to keep them to anything but "to a maximum."
All of the suggestions you have are good ones, but my point is that I didn't think the game's setting was designed so that my character's everyday life should include running from, attacking, 'hunting', being suspicious of, or panicking over mages. Because mages aren't supposed to be so prominent in every mundane character's daily routine.
To me, my PC's near-constant exposure to magick and the overall repetitive nature of many of my magickal encounters have cheapened what is supposed to be a rare, frightening, and interesting event.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Armaddict on March 07, 2007, 11:06:51 PM
Post by: Armaddict on March 07, 2007, 11:06:51 PM
QuoteI can't believe that some of you apparently would rather keep encounters with mages to a minimum and miss out on all this.
That's like me saying, "I can't believe that some of you think magickal role-play is cool."
Which I'm not, by the way.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on March 07, 2007, 11:28:39 PM
Post by: jhunter on March 07, 2007, 11:28:39 PM
I believe that the staff has stated in the past that the magicker populations were at intended proportions on average. I believe it is -fact- that alot of you are overexaggerating the amount of magickers you encounter with a single pc bigtime.
I may not have ever been one of the "trouble" mages people are talking about but I do not wish to see my opportunity to continue playing the ones that I do decimated by other's hatred of magickers and everything magickal in the game.
I may not have ever been one of the "trouble" mages people are talking about but I do not wish to see my opportunity to continue playing the ones that I do decimated by other's hatred of magickers and everything magickal in the game.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Armaddict on March 07, 2007, 11:34:49 PM
Post by: Armaddict on March 07, 2007, 11:34:49 PM
QuoteI believe it is -fact- that alot of you are overexaggerating the amount of magickers you encounter with a single pc bigtime.
I'm not overexaggerating. However, it is a statement that is based on -our- 'green area' of where the magicker population should be. The staff is in charge, I'm not refuting that.
But some people like to see it less, some people are fine with more. To those who like to see it less, it will probably always seem like too much until a change comes around.
Isn't that kind of the whole point of why this discussion always goes on so long? People want it at different measures of prominence. I don't think it will change, since I've seen this thread come up countless times in eight years.
That doesn't mean I have no reason to share my personal viewpoint and share with people what my 'green area' consists of, though, does it?
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on March 07, 2007, 11:38:24 PM
Post by: jhunter on March 07, 2007, 11:38:24 PM
No, of course it doesn't mean that. I'm finding it really hard to believe that it's as bad as -any- of you guys are saying. My experience has never been -remotely- close to the amounts of magick that people are stating they encounter on a consistent basis. I've played pcs in all ranges of types and locations and the only ones I encountered alot of magick with were either magickers themselves or a templar. (To be expected for either considering the type of templar I was playing.)
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Nile on March 08, 2007, 12:40:28 AM
Post by: Nile on March 08, 2007, 12:40:28 AM
Over my last few characters, I have seen a LOT of magickers, I'm talking a very large number of them.
I'd just rather see mundanes. More fun.
I'd just rather see mundanes. More fun.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Rindan on March 08, 2007, 12:48:28 AM
Post by: Rindan on March 08, 2007, 12:48:28 AM
I think the anecdotal evidence is pretty strong that the world is swarming with magikers. It is a pretty question to answer though. Any staff members want to the post the number of magikers and mindbenders they see on the who during peak?
My real concern isn't magikers right now. Eh, it is the end of the world, let people have their fun. My real concern is that in 2.arm when we don't even have karma, the world is going to be crawling with the bastard. If they are as buff as they are now, regardless what cultural restrictions (or lack there of) are put in place, I think it is going to really rob from the atmosphere of the game.
I don't mind strong magikers, I just want their numbers to be limited. If we want to have unlimited numbers of magikers and turn the game more magik heavy, then I think that they should be gimped. Whatever the case, I think that having a state of affairs where magikers are plentiful and powerful is intolerable.
Personally, I would prefer to keep magikers both strong and rare. I really don't want to see Armageddon degrade in AD&D where I need a frigging assassin, thief, warrior, water elementalist, and fire elementalist in my party when I go kill goblins for l00t. I like that magikers are rare and scary... but that whole "rare" party is important. Without the 'rare' party of 'rare and scary', it becomes 'plentiful and irritating' to those that just want to be a mundane nobody.
My real concern isn't magikers right now. Eh, it is the end of the world, let people have their fun. My real concern is that in 2.arm when we don't even have karma, the world is going to be crawling with the bastard. If they are as buff as they are now, regardless what cultural restrictions (or lack there of) are put in place, I think it is going to really rob from the atmosphere of the game.
I don't mind strong magikers, I just want their numbers to be limited. If we want to have unlimited numbers of magikers and turn the game more magik heavy, then I think that they should be gimped. Whatever the case, I think that having a state of affairs where magikers are plentiful and powerful is intolerable.
Personally, I would prefer to keep magikers both strong and rare. I really don't want to see Armageddon degrade in AD&D where I need a frigging assassin, thief, warrior, water elementalist, and fire elementalist in my party when I go kill goblins for l00t. I like that magikers are rare and scary... but that whole "rare" party is important. Without the 'rare' party of 'rare and scary', it becomes 'plentiful and irritating' to those that just want to be a mundane nobody.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: spawnloser on March 08, 2007, 05:10:18 AM
Post by: spawnloser on March 08, 2007, 05:10:18 AM
Quote from: "Nile"Over my last few characters, I have seen a LOT of magickers, I'm talking a very large number of them.Okay, count up the total number of mages you've seen with your last few characters...and then total up the number of non-mages. I will GUARANTEE that you've seen more non-mages. You've interacted with more of them and more often than any magickers, too.
I'd just rather see mundanes. More fun.
The reason I think people have a problem with this IS due to how powerful magickers are. You NOTICE the magicker more because of the impact that magicker has. Magickers have more impact due to the abilities they posess and that the mundanes do not. That's the way it is, and I'd rather not see it change.
What I would like to see is more magickers giving explanation for what they do through something (an emote or a say as they start doing what they do), and this is VERY much directed at those that can accomplish invisibility or the equivalent. Most problems I have are when they just start casting from their hidden state without preamble. It's kind of hard to scare people away from your secret sanctuary unless you leave some survivors.
Oh, and Rindan, anecdotal evidence is NOT indicative of actual numbers. It's indicative of perceptions.
Armaddict, the same thing goes for you that I said to Nile. You may not be exaggerating the number of mages you meet, but you are discounting the number of mundanes you meet too.
Fathi, same thing too. They're not a maximum, like you claim they are. If they were a maximum, you'd be accosted by magickers every moment you're logged in. You ARE exaggerating, because you probably don't run across magickers more than 5% of the time you're logged in. Oh, and while your character is 'mundane' by nature of the fact that your character is not a magicker, but your character is by NO means mundane when you consider the fact that a mundane, run-of-the-mill person probably has only a few coins to rub together at one point and lives their life without EVER stepping outside the gates, without ever actually interacting directly with a noble or templar, or doing anything other than their tiny little job that you and I and the rest of the playerbase would find boring. Your character is exceptional because your character DOES rise above his/her situation and aspires to something big. When you aspire to something big, anything and everything could go wrong, including coming across magickers with similar or opposing goals.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Larrath on March 08, 2007, 05:50:36 AM
Post by: Larrath on March 08, 2007, 05:50:36 AM
Quote from: "spawnloser"Okay, count up the total number of mages you've seen with your last few characters...and then total up the number of non-mages. I will GUARANTEE that you've seen more non-mages. You've interacted with more of them and more often than any magickers, too.[/quote]
I'd just rather see mundanes. More fun.
This is exactly the problem!
The amount of magickers in the game shouldn't even be comparable to the amount of mundanes.
And to me, 'mundane' means 'not a magicker'. Please don't go around changing accepted terms for no good reason.
But I digress. If you counted all the mundanes and the magickers that you saw, even if you counted every hidden magicker as a mundane, you'd still get a ratio around, say, one mage for every six characters. If you do count the hidden magickers, you get one mage for every five (or even four) mundane characters. And these mundane characters include Bynners, templars, merchants and aides and far-away tribals.
That ratio is simply not good. It should be around one mage for every twelve or so mundane characters - if 60 people are on, then five magickers running around causing havoc should be enough.
Quote from: "spawnloser"The reason I think people have a problem with this IS due to how powerful magickers are. You NOTICE the magicker more because of the impact that magicker has. Magickers have more impact due to the abilities they posess and that the mundanes do not.Yes, this is the reason. Most people seem to feel that their mundane magick-fearing ranger or warrior is made completely irrelevant by the veritable sea of powerful, high-impact characters. Magickers are supposed to be an impact, but that impact shouldn't be so great as to trivialize and nullify non-magickers. In addition, it's very dull and silly for a character to be scared to death of magickers even though they run into one four times every day. It's realistic, sure, but it also makes for very limited and boring roleplay.
If your ranger sees that there are magickers in the Grey Forest, he can hunt in the Scrub. But what happens if there are magickers in the Grey Forest, the Scrub, the Plains beyond, the North Road, the Red Desert, the Tablelands and the area around Luir's? You have to go somewhere, since this is a game after all.
Quote from: "spawnloser"What I would like to see is more magickers giving explanation for what they do through something (an emote or a say as they start doing what they do), and this is VERY much directed at those that can accomplish invisibility or the equivalent. Most problems I have are when they just start casting from their hidden state without preamble. It's kind of hard to scare people away from your secret sanctuary unless you leave some survivors.More emoting and less killing-happiness from magickers (and non-magickers as well) is cool and great and awesome, but that isn't what will resolve the problem of overpopulation.
There are too many magickers. This is most likely caused by the coming of Arm 2. I personally know that since the announcement came, I've stored my mundane mage-hater and started working on playing all the interesting types that I won't be able to play later (read: magickers).
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Lizzie on March 08, 2007, 07:24:39 AM
Post by: Lizzie on March 08, 2007, 07:24:39 AM
A thought that might calm some of the panic:
It is possible, that the magicker who killed your bed-mate yesterday is dead, and the magicker you're seeing today is a different one. It is possible, that there really aren't that many mages at any given point, but rather, a very swift shift in living/dead mage PCs. So, one day there's 10 of them, the next day, 3 die off and at the same time, 3 more are approved. Bumps back up to 10, and it just gives the impression that there's all these dozens of magickers running around, when in actuality there are just a couple handsful but a few keep dying and a few keep genning at regular intervals.
I can think of only 4 characters that I am absolutely positive are mages, that my PC has met. I can think of perhaps another 4 or 5 that I'm suspicious of, but don't really know for sure and have no evidence to prove one way or another. That's world-wide, in the entire scope of the terrain my character has experienced, during play times that range from early morning EST to late night. Assuming that I haven't been everywhere in the game, and haven't logged on at every possible hour of play time, double that total and you get a whopping - 18 mages out of how many PCs in the entire game (not just peak, I mean total)?
I think it's just perception.
It is possible, that the magicker who killed your bed-mate yesterday is dead, and the magicker you're seeing today is a different one. It is possible, that there really aren't that many mages at any given point, but rather, a very swift shift in living/dead mage PCs. So, one day there's 10 of them, the next day, 3 die off and at the same time, 3 more are approved. Bumps back up to 10, and it just gives the impression that there's all these dozens of magickers running around, when in actuality there are just a couple handsful but a few keep dying and a few keep genning at regular intervals.
I can think of only 4 characters that I am absolutely positive are mages, that my PC has met. I can think of perhaps another 4 or 5 that I'm suspicious of, but don't really know for sure and have no evidence to prove one way or another. That's world-wide, in the entire scope of the terrain my character has experienced, during play times that range from early morning EST to late night. Assuming that I haven't been everywhere in the game, and haven't logged on at every possible hour of play time, double that total and you get a whopping - 18 mages out of how many PCs in the entire game (not just peak, I mean total)?
I think it's just perception.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: HoD on March 08, 2007, 07:41:38 AM
Post by: HoD on March 08, 2007, 07:41:38 AM
Hmm, most likely the number of magickers flying around is because of the ending of arm 1. People want to play what they want to play? And I suppose alot of people have wanted to play magickers.
Also, from what I remember, magickers are easy to become "powerful" with, in the sense you CAN lock yourself away from the world and come out only when your powerful enough, or whatever. With the end of arm1 coming in quickly (3 months people!) My guess is people are opting for magickers so they can have a somewhat powerful char for the final ending, rather then warrior #1039 who has trouble with a kank fly.
Also, from what I remember, magickers are easy to become "powerful" with, in the sense you CAN lock yourself away from the world and come out only when your powerful enough, or whatever. With the end of arm1 coming in quickly (3 months people!) My guess is people are opting for magickers so they can have a somewhat powerful char for the final ending, rather then warrior #1039 who has trouble with a kank fly.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Hymwen on March 08, 2007, 07:47:41 AM
Post by: Hymwen on March 08, 2007, 07:47:41 AM
QuoteCan't we all just stop whining and play the game? Sheesh, there's only a few months of it left. Does it really fuckin' matter?
And some people wonder why we're continually losing players. I believe an attitude like that contributes a lot to the somewhat common feeling of "why bother playing the last x months if they're gonna leave the game to rot while working on the new one?".
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Seeker on March 08, 2007, 08:46:32 AM
Post by: Seeker on March 08, 2007, 08:46:32 AM
Quote from: "Larrath"
There are too many magickers. This is most likely caused by the coming of Arm 2. I personally know that since the announcement came, I've stored my mundane mage-hater and started working on playing all the interesting types that I won't be able to play later (read: magickers).
I believe this statement is a good summation, and I don't think that Larrath is wrong or alone in his decision. The gameworld has changed, and it is not likely to swing back.
The perceived effect? The familiar mundane atmosphere of 1.Arm is already in its final death throes.
Seeker
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: moab on March 08, 2007, 09:37:59 AM
Post by: moab on March 08, 2007, 09:37:59 AM
magicker with cool spells != powerful
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Krath on March 08, 2007, 09:48:01 AM
Post by: Krath on March 08, 2007, 09:48:01 AM
Once again, I agree completely with X-D. The whole Protecting of the land thing, fucking
retarted. I dont care if it is in your to immediately kill someone for being on "your" Land,
Fucking RP.
retarted. I dont care if it is in your to immediately kill someone for being on "your" Land,
Fucking RP.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Hot_Dancer on March 08, 2007, 09:48:51 AM
Post by: Hot_Dancer on March 08, 2007, 09:48:51 AM
Lets see. Out of active players I've seen in my area play over the last week, if I counted between the split of magical and mundane characters that were visible in the area more than one RL day of the week it would be:
5 Mages
4 Mundanes
Of course, by this time next week those numbers will fluctuate due to various reasons but I don't expect the ratio to change much.
I don't really hate mages. I'd rather have their interaction than none at all, I don't want my careless, grumpy morning opinions here to make anyone uncomfortable that interacts with my character in the game. I have enjoyed some good roleplay with them.
Hot Dancer
5 Mages
4 Mundanes
Of course, by this time next week those numbers will fluctuate due to various reasons but I don't expect the ratio to change much.
I don't really hate mages. I'd rather have their interaction than none at all, I don't want my careless, grumpy morning opinions here to make anyone uncomfortable that interacts with my character in the game. I have enjoyed some good roleplay with them.
Hot Dancer
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Malken on March 08, 2007, 10:17:59 AM
Post by: Malken on March 08, 2007, 10:17:59 AM
The problem with thinking that by killing a magicker, you rid the world of it, is that the person you just killed probably will just go ahead and make ANOTHER magicker, because now they know how to play the role and is curious about the other spells he or she didn't get to see..
There's just no restrictions, you can make as many magickers as you want if you have the karma.. I really doubt that an application has ever been refused because an admin wrote, "Sorry, there's currently too many Rukkians in game right now.."?
Also, it's so easy to make money in a couple of places I know of that you have to wonder if these places are not known to a huge percentage of the magickers by now, that wants to play non-gemmed ones and know that they won't be hunted there if they try just a little to remain unknown.
There's one place in the world where I KNOW you can just sit on your butt all day and make a fortune just by staying inside the walls, if you select the right subclass, and anyone that goes to that place often knows what I'm talking about.. How many 'mundane-looking' characters with the same subclass do you spot in that place? It's almost hilarous, if not sad, at times.. You all know they're magickers, perhaps your character doesn't, but you as a player just knows it.
It's not just a matter of magickers taking huge risks to survive anymore, it's a matter of the game made it so easy to survive and pile up coins that anyone can survive easily just by staying in the same safe area.. Why play a hunter and take risks dying every day when you can just play a magicker and make a small fortune if you just know a few tricks and grow in power pretty easily? I know two places in the world where you can do that at the moment.
Before, you knew that if you picked a non-gemmed magicker, you'd really have a hard time for a couple of months, you'd have to go out and seek your water and know a good spot or two where you could gather a few fruits to survive.. Now? No way, you sit in a tavern and you either pick a few easily obtainable items to sell once in a while or spam craft with your subclass and you can be a non-gemmed magicker loaded with coins who doesn't have to worry about a single thing, except from being seen casting in his luxurious bedroom if he's really an unlucky one...
There's just no restrictions, you can make as many magickers as you want if you have the karma.. I really doubt that an application has ever been refused because an admin wrote, "Sorry, there's currently too many Rukkians in game right now.."?
Also, it's so easy to make money in a couple of places I know of that you have to wonder if these places are not known to a huge percentage of the magickers by now, that wants to play non-gemmed ones and know that they won't be hunted there if they try just a little to remain unknown.
There's one place in the world where I KNOW you can just sit on your butt all day and make a fortune just by staying inside the walls, if you select the right subclass, and anyone that goes to that place often knows what I'm talking about.. How many 'mundane-looking' characters with the same subclass do you spot in that place? It's almost hilarous, if not sad, at times.. You all know they're magickers, perhaps your character doesn't, but you as a player just knows it.
It's not just a matter of magickers taking huge risks to survive anymore, it's a matter of the game made it so easy to survive and pile up coins that anyone can survive easily just by staying in the same safe area.. Why play a hunter and take risks dying every day when you can just play a magicker and make a small fortune if you just know a few tricks and grow in power pretty easily? I know two places in the world where you can do that at the moment.
Before, you knew that if you picked a non-gemmed magicker, you'd really have a hard time for a couple of months, you'd have to go out and seek your water and know a good spot or two where you could gather a few fruits to survive.. Now? No way, you sit in a tavern and you either pick a few easily obtainable items to sell once in a while or spam craft with your subclass and you can be a non-gemmed magicker loaded with coins who doesn't have to worry about a single thing, except from being seen casting in his luxurious bedroom if he's really an unlucky one...
Title: Perception.
Post by: LoD on March 08, 2007, 10:33:09 AM
Post by: LoD on March 08, 2007, 10:33:09 AM
People are arguing about whether or not there are a lot of magickers. There are. There usually are. There are probably more people playing magickers at a given moment, as Rindan noted, than people playing city elves and dwarves combined.
The total head count is not the problem, yet. The problem is that the culture does not provide those magickers something better to do with their time, and promotes hostile and often fatal encounters going both ways.
Enforcing restrictions on the physical number of mage characters is one way that the perception could be changed, but it doesn't address the true problem. Changing the culture, or ensuring that the Arm 2 culture doesn't likewise suffer from the same affliction, will have a more lasting and profound effect. Mages need more viable roles where they can cooperate with mundanes. Perhaps not directly, but certainly not opposed.
There needs to be a greater interdependence between mundane and magickal forces in the world, where one does not consistently trump the other or become the clear and obvious choice. Mages used to not be the clear and obvious choice because they were in the minority or unavailable, but that seems to become less and less the norm. And when you have an entire set of geographical regions react violently to magick without having any inherent magickal protection, you begin seeing a very limited and repetitive series of encounters.
My sincere hope is that the problem is eventually attacked from both sides, where the physical number of mages diminishes as their social opportunities and liberties increase. It has been an easy trap for Immortals to select magickal entities to further quests because they take less time and explanation to develop. Mundanes take actual effort and interaction to achieve similar levels of power, while a sorcerer just takes time, food, and water. It's an easier background story.
And since the plots were driven by magickal entities, magickal characters were more likely not only to be involved, but to make a sustained impact. Some of these issues will naturally be addressed by the planned shift in player participation in Arm 2. Characters should have more power, and more ability to make changes/decisions, which will remove some of the magickal superpower components. However, the current mage would be a monster amidst men in a gameworld of small outposts, settlements, and tribes. It's my fervent hope that the culture and the class choices address both of these issues in a way that doesn't trivialize the role of the mundane player as many have expressed they feel in today's game.
-LoD
The total head count is not the problem, yet. The problem is that the culture does not provide those magickers something better to do with their time, and promotes hostile and often fatal encounters going both ways.
Enforcing restrictions on the physical number of mage characters is one way that the perception could be changed, but it doesn't address the true problem. Changing the culture, or ensuring that the Arm 2 culture doesn't likewise suffer from the same affliction, will have a more lasting and profound effect. Mages need more viable roles where they can cooperate with mundanes. Perhaps not directly, but certainly not opposed.
There needs to be a greater interdependence between mundane and magickal forces in the world, where one does not consistently trump the other or become the clear and obvious choice. Mages used to not be the clear and obvious choice because they were in the minority or unavailable, but that seems to become less and less the norm. And when you have an entire set of geographical regions react violently to magick without having any inherent magickal protection, you begin seeing a very limited and repetitive series of encounters.
My sincere hope is that the problem is eventually attacked from both sides, where the physical number of mages diminishes as their social opportunities and liberties increase. It has been an easy trap for Immortals to select magickal entities to further quests because they take less time and explanation to develop. Mundanes take actual effort and interaction to achieve similar levels of power, while a sorcerer just takes time, food, and water. It's an easier background story.
And since the plots were driven by magickal entities, magickal characters were more likely not only to be involved, but to make a sustained impact. Some of these issues will naturally be addressed by the planned shift in player participation in Arm 2. Characters should have more power, and more ability to make changes/decisions, which will remove some of the magickal superpower components. However, the current mage would be a monster amidst men in a gameworld of small outposts, settlements, and tribes. It's my fervent hope that the culture and the class choices address both of these issues in a way that doesn't trivialize the role of the mundane player as many have expressed they feel in today's game.
-LoD
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on March 08, 2007, 10:58:39 AM
Post by: jhunter on March 08, 2007, 10:58:39 AM
QuoteMagickers are supposed to be an impact, but that impact shouldn't be so great as to trivialize and nullify non-magickers.
Read as: I can't stand the fact that there's a bunch of beings that are potentially more dangerous than mine, therefore there are too many magickers and I'm tired of running into them.
No offense intended at all but this is typical of the argument that I'm seeing about it. I honestly feel with all my heart that 75% of it is people's personal issues with magick itself, or frustration at both the gameworld and the code being against them just crushing magickers like they would other characters they might run into outside. Sort of a: Well, at least if they're mundanes proper rp doesn't require me to automatically be afraid of them and be on the "losing" end from the getgo and now should I choose to disregard it and jump them anyway, I'll likely lose because they are powerful enough to do something about it.
Magickers in no way trivialize the impact of mundanes, in fact mundanes have alot more opportunity to make an impact on the gameworld than magickers. More changes have been made to the gameworld due to the actions and efforts of mundane characters and mundane characters are hot -hated- or -feared- by all. (Real big hindrance if you want to make an impact on the gameworld.) They can work for and with those who have as much power if not more than most -any- magicker.
I know for a fact that I've had much more impact on the world as a whole with my mundane pcs than I have any magicker. I've also seen alot more changes in the gameworld brought about by mundanes than I've seen from any magicker.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LoD on March 08, 2007, 12:09:37 PM
Post by: LoD on March 08, 2007, 12:09:37 PM
Quote from: "jhunter"Read as: I can't stand the fact that there's a bunch of beings that are potentially more dangerous than mine, therefore there are too many magickers and I'm tired of running into them.
Read: I'm jhunter and cannot comprehend a single reason why people would ever criticize magickers besides one singular idea that players don't ever want another player to be more powerful than them. Again.
Stop this. This line of thinking. This erroneous and stubborn grasp on issues that aren't being described. No one is saying they want to be able to KILL magickers. No one is saying that they have problems because magicker characters can become more powerful than their mundane character.
If you botherred to read and absorb even a scrap of what is being said, you would begin to understand that many mundane players feel as if they cannot participate in a given plot or quest without often being introduced to magickal participants. I can't believe that you honestly cannot see the permeation of magikers in the curent game, as you claim.
My last character played in Tuluk. I would see something magickal every RL week. -Every- RL week. Here are a few examples:
1. A magicker attacked a friend inside the city-state using their magicks.
2. A magicker ran through a grove where my character was chopping wood about 10 leagues out of the gate. And there was nothing subtle about his display of magickal power.
3. A magicker assaulted my employees in the grasslands.
4. A magicker approached us in the same grove, invisible, and demanded we leave because they were the "Protector of the grove."
5. An invisible magicker was spotted on the North Road.
6. A magicker was seen by my character moving through the grasslands with visible and full displays of magickal ability.
7. A templar organized no less than 3 hunts where magickers were physically seen and chased through the area.
I didn't go out of my way to find magickers. I didn't visit completely remote areas of the gameworld in hopes of finding them. I moved on roads between cities, across small sections of commonly travelled hunting grounds, and throughout the wilderness areas surrounding the sprawling city-states. And that was just what was witnessed by one character.
And did I ever attack one? No. Did I ever kill one? No. Did I ever chase one around by myself? No.
In a land where magicks are supposed to be rare and mysterious, they were anything but that. They were a consistent part of our weekly activities, and that is just my personal experience. It may vary, but I know that other players, even city-based characters, have had just as many or more experiences with magickers or psionicists.
For once, some people want to be part of a quest that doesn't involve some sorcerous master, minions of undead, legions of magickally influenced beasts, vampires, invisible voices, or any number of these magickal elements. When Imms use magickal characters to further these plot lines, it often dooms such a hope from the start. People seem to think that if it doesn't have shiny sparks, flames, or invisibility, that it's boring.
There are many of us that thoroughly enjoy the very mundane interplay surrounding governmental politics, econonmic struggle, martial conquest, terrirtorial disputes, and cultural/racial tension. When magick hangs thick enough to influence many of these, it becomes tiresome. It's similar to having that unwanted and obnoxious cousin following you and your friends around no matter how much you try to avoid him.
It's not because I want to kill magickers, and it's not because I don't want anyone more powerful than myself. There are plenty of mundane people far more powerful, whether by position or by ability, than my character. I don't NEED someone who can conjure magickal fire to present obstacles to my goals. What I want is to play amidst my peers and enjoy the challenges of a simple and mundane plan set in motion without some magickal element being used to drive it forward.
The issue is that magickal entities pushing many of the current plots in the game has seemingly become the standard rather than the exception. And that frustration is what you see come up on the boards from time to time. It has nothing to do with being able to kill magickers, or being killed by them in return -- but more simply, that they are involved at all.
-LoD
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: BuNutzCola on March 08, 2007, 12:42:43 PM
Post by: BuNutzCola on March 08, 2007, 12:42:43 PM
While I admit that it seems plots have involved more magick recently, I suppose a lot of it ties into the end of the world, and that I imagine there is a lot of Magickal reasons for such.
But aside from that, one of the most major events I've seen in a while had absolutely nothing to do with magic, and was good old mundane effort.
In the past six months or so I've been playing, I think I can conclusively say I came across roughly 8 people I -knew/think- were magickers, and no mindbenders. As opposed to probably 50+ mundanes easily. Of that, at least half the magickers were gemmed, so I don't really get the feeling that we're overrun with them.
And in all but two encounters, I found the mundanes to be much scarier, though without a doubt the Magicker encounters scared me willy-nilly.
And while I've only played two magicker characters of the same element, at least in my experience, that particular element wasn't incredibly powerful, nor did I ever once think "Hmph, mundane, this should be a breeze." When I was coming into a conflict.
Hell, I'm embarassed to admit it but after three days with one magicker I still nearly died to a cactus snake, something I'd -never- see happen with any of my mundanes save maybe a merchant (which I've never played)
But aside from that, one of the most major events I've seen in a while had absolutely nothing to do with magic, and was good old mundane effort.
In the past six months or so I've been playing, I think I can conclusively say I came across roughly 8 people I -knew/think- were magickers, and no mindbenders. As opposed to probably 50+ mundanes easily. Of that, at least half the magickers were gemmed, so I don't really get the feeling that we're overrun with them.
And in all but two encounters, I found the mundanes to be much scarier, though without a doubt the Magicker encounters scared me willy-nilly.
And while I've only played two magicker characters of the same element, at least in my experience, that particular element wasn't incredibly powerful, nor did I ever once think "Hmph, mundane, this should be a breeze." When I was coming into a conflict.
Hell, I'm embarassed to admit it but after three days with one magicker I still nearly died to a cactus snake, something I'd -never- see happen with any of my mundanes save maybe a merchant (which I've never played)
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Tarx on March 08, 2007, 12:45:55 PM
Post by: Tarx on March 08, 2007, 12:45:55 PM
Ah. LoD's post made a lot of sense to me, I can see where that comes from now. Thanks for clarifying that, maybe some others may see your point more clearly now as well.
As a personal opinion, I don't think any of us except for the imms can really see the whole picture on this. I do recall a similar opinion about "d00d there r 2 many magick3rs" a few years back, which would make me think this is cyclical. A post supporting this theory:
Dakurus wrote:
I think everyone's made the points they are going to make about this, really...I don't see anything new coming up anymore.
As a personal opinion, I don't think any of us except for the imms can really see the whole picture on this. I do recall a similar opinion about "d00d there r 2 many magick3rs" a few years back, which would make me think this is cyclical. A post supporting this theory:
Dakurus wrote:
QuoteThere's another potential objective that would be nice to solve with a similar system, but we may give up some choice to do it.
At least in the current Arm we have a huge tendency for cyclical population of clans, tribes, houses, and so on. The reasons for it are many, (popularity, strong leader, fad, interest, mass killings, etc) however it is disappointing in that without PC's, the npc/vnpc strength and interaction from other PC/clan viewpoints is often ignored or overlooked. Ideally we'd have more consistent populations.
So many times we have no X tribe in Y location.
Or only the east side of the rinth has PCs, or M house, but not N.
Currently this is handled for high (noble/etc) roles by Staff asking for apps, but the rest is player hired.
And perhaps in Arm2 this would be less desired, but I suspect consistency in any environment would be nice.
I think everyone's made the points they are going to make about this, really...I don't see anything new coming up anymore.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Hymwen on March 08, 2007, 01:08:27 PM
Post by: Hymwen on March 08, 2007, 01:08:27 PM
For as long as I've played (a bit over a year) there hasn't been a time where I wasn't thinking that there were too many magickers. Practically every one of my characters has been involuntarily involved with magick in one way or another, without trying/wanting to. I do play primarily in Allanak so a larger amount of magickers is to be expected, but it was only slightly less apparent when playing in other areas. My 3-day d-elf in the Tablelands had close encounters with I think 4 different magickers. My Tuluki PC(s) met them in the grasslands just outside the gates on a daily basis. In Allanak you'll often see as many gemmers as non-gemmers in the Barrel at any given time.
One problem is that restricting people from playing what they want isn't going to make those magick-favoring players happy. It needs to be so that playing a magicker isn't so damn appealing. It should be something that's challenging and difficult enough that a large percentage of the playerbase doesn't play them, and so that noone plays them over and over again one after another.
No, you probably can't max out a magicker in 3 days. I'm not sure if anyone said that, but a lot of people sure are acting as if someone did. Maybe I missed it. But you sure as hell can reach extremely potent power or defensive abilities (often both) within a handful of days, enough that only a select few things that a mundane player can do will reliably kill you. Paralyze poison arrows and one-hit backstabs, yeah... but a straight-up fight against all but the strongest of warriors, no way. Magickers should become monsters with time, but not within a week of logged play. It doesn't take a "maxed out" magicker to kill just about anyone in two spells, or escape in ways that a mundane character has no chance of preventing. The fact is that if you just want to be super powerful and defeat other players, playing a magicker is the best way to go, especially if you want that kind of deadliness before 20 days played.
One problem is that restricting people from playing what they want isn't going to make those magick-favoring players happy. It needs to be so that playing a magicker isn't so damn appealing. It should be something that's challenging and difficult enough that a large percentage of the playerbase doesn't play them, and so that noone plays them over and over again one after another.
No, you probably can't max out a magicker in 3 days. I'm not sure if anyone said that, but a lot of people sure are acting as if someone did. Maybe I missed it. But you sure as hell can reach extremely potent power or defensive abilities (often both) within a handful of days, enough that only a select few things that a mundane player can do will reliably kill you. Paralyze poison arrows and one-hit backstabs, yeah... but a straight-up fight against all but the strongest of warriors, no way. Magickers should become monsters with time, but not within a week of logged play. It doesn't take a "maxed out" magicker to kill just about anyone in two spells, or escape in ways that a mundane character has no chance of preventing. The fact is that if you just want to be super powerful and defeat other players, playing a magicker is the best way to go, especially if you want that kind of deadliness before 20 days played.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: spawnloser on March 08, 2007, 02:28:15 PM
Post by: spawnloser on March 08, 2007, 02:28:15 PM
First thing's first, Larrath, you misquoted. If you'd like to fix it, what you screwed up on was cutting out the original quote tag that was in my post, for the quote I'd taken to respond to. Just letting you know so that you can fix it to save on confusion. I know when I first looked at your post, I was like, "Wait, I didn't say that."
On to addressing other points...
(snip)
You want a mundane plot that doesn't involve magickers doing magicky things? Do something without trying to change the world. Have a bardic competition. I've seen those in both Tuluk and Allanak, though I'll admit less frequently in Allanak. Throw a party for socialites with some competition involved. Hell, just have some sort of competition and disallow magickers. Be prejudiced like you should be.
These kinds of things make fun for the mundanes, making it attractive to be a mundane. Continue these things and do them more often and you'll attract more people to playing the mundane roles instead of trying to set some arbitrary, silly (in my mind) and potentially just as problematic system to limit something just because some people are having a hissy over it.
Quote from: "Larrath"No, you see, you're forgetting all those characters you walked past in the town but didn't actually stop and talk to, and all those people in X bar that you just walked past instead of going into. You could EASILY live a life with a character that wasn't involved in a 'magicker plot.' Don't go to where magickers are in abundance, outside of the areas that don't tolerate them. If you play in Tuluk and never leave the gates, in all likeliness, you'll never even SEE a magicker except the odd one hiding his/her abilities while in Tuluk. Those you probably won't notice just as much as the mundanes that you also aren't noticing due to their lowered impact on the world.Quote from: "spawnloser"Okay, count up the total number of mages you've seen with your last few characters...and then total up the number of non-mages. I will GUARANTEE that you've seen more non-mages. You've interacted with more of them and more often than any magickers, too.This is exactly the problem!
The amount of magickers in the game shouldn't even be comparable to the amount of mundanes.
Quote from: "Larrath"And to me, 'mundane' means 'not a magicker'. Please don't go around changing accepted terms for no good reason.(sigh) I'm not changing any definitions. If you read through what I said and understood it, you'd understand that I'm saying that your character isn't "mundane" in the normal sense of the word, the definition provided in the dictionary, but is exceptional in that s/he rises above his/her normal allotment in life...which all those NPCs and VNPCs are not doing. You're not playing 'your average Zalanthan,' so don't expect to have the experiences of your average Zalanthan. If you want to have the experiences of your average Zalanthan, go dig clay all day. You'll probably never have to worry about a magicker.
Quote from: "Larrath"But I digress. If you counted all the mundanes and the magickers that you saw, even if you counted every hidden magicker as a mundane, you'd still get a ratio around, say, one mage for every six characters. If you do count the hidden magickers, you get one mage for every five (or even four) mundane characters. And these mundane characters include Bynners, templars, merchants and aides and far-away tribals.Again, as I and others have said, I think you're exaggerating the ratio. As I said, I'd expect it to be closer to a one magicker for twenty characters. You just notice the magickers more.
That ratio is simply not good. It should be around one mage for every twelve or so mundane characters - if 60 people are on, then five magickers running around causing havoc should be enough.
Quote from: "Larrath"Yeah, so? Magickers have nowhere to go, so you're surprised to see them claiming or at least living in the wilds? Don't go gallavanting around all over the world. If you see a magicker in the territory you're planning to hunt in, run and come back later. They're not logged in 24/7, are they?Quote from: "spawnloser"The reason I think people have a problem with this IS due to how powerful magickers are. You NOTICE the magicker more because of the impact that magicker has. Magickers have more impact due to the abilities they posess and that the mundanes do not.Yes, this is the reason. Most people seem to feel that their mundane magick-fearing ranger or warrior is made completely irrelevant by the veritable sea of powerful, high-impact characters. Magickers are supposed to be an impact, but that impact shouldn't be so great as to trivialize and nullify non-magickers. In addition, it's very dull and silly for a character to be scared to death of magickers even though they run into one four times every day. It's realistic, sure, but it also makes for very limited and boring roleplay.
If your ranger sees that there are magickers in the Grey Forest, he can hunt in the Scrub. But what happens if there are magickers in the Grey Forest, the Scrub, the Plains beyond, the North Road, the Red Desert, the Tablelands and the area around Luir's? You have to go somewhere, since this is a game after all.
Quote from: "Larrath"Again, I will say, "Perceived problem."Quote from: "spawnloser"What I would like to see is more magickers giving explanation for what they do through something (an emote or a say as they start doing what they do), and this is VERY much directed at those that can accomplish invisibility or the equivalent. Most problems I have are when they just start casting from their hidden state without preamble. It's kind of hard to scare people away from your secret sanctuary unless you leave some survivors.More emoting and less killing-happiness from magickers (and non-magickers as well) is cool and great and awesome, but that isn't what will resolve the problem of overpopulation.
On to addressing other points...
Quote from: "LoD"(snipped response to jhunter)And these are major plots that magickers are having grave influence on? A magicker being seen in the distance or as s/he ran past, being hunted, hunting you or a friend or demanding your leaving is NOT a major plot event. Just because someone sees a magicker while doing something doesn't mean that magickers are dominating plotlines, like everyone seems to think they are. I think this is part of the issue. Someone sees a magicker and now everything about what they're doing is influenced by a magicker and now the plot is ruined...or some such tripe.
If you botherred to read and absorb even a scrap of what is being said, you would begin to understand that many mundane players feel as if they cannot participate in a given plot or quest without often being introduced to magickal participants. I can't believe that you honestly cannot see the permeation of magikers in the curent game, as you claim.
My last character played in Tuluk. I would see something magickal every RL week. -Every- RL week. Here are a few examples:
1. A magicker attacked a friend inside the city-state using their magicks.
2. A magicker ran through a grove where my character was chopping wood about 10 leagues out of the gate. And there was nothing subtle about his display of magickal power.
3. A magicker assaulted my employees in the grasslands.
4. A magicker approached us in the same grove, invisible, and demanded we leave because they were the "Protector of the grove."
5. An invisible magicker was spotted on the North Road.
6. A magicker was seen by my character moving through the grasslands with visible and full displays of magickal ability.
7. A templar organized no less than 3 hunts where magickers were physically seen and chased through the area.
(snip)
Quote from: "LoD"For once, some people want to be part of a quest that doesn't involve some sorcerous master, minions of undead, legions of magickally influenced beasts, vampires, invisible voices, or any number of these magickal elements. When Imms use magickal characters to further these plot lines, it often dooms such a hope from the start. People seem to think that if it doesn't have shiny sparks, flames, or invisibility, that it's boring.In response to all of this, I ask, "Have any of you actually READ the history documentation?!?" Seriously, magick is what makes the world go 'round. Just because a small percentage of the population has it or knows much about it doesn't mean that those that have it aren't the major movers in the world. It's plainly evident that this is the case, actually. Tek, Muk, the Dragon, dragonthralls, the Cataclysm...I could go on, but I'd rather people read the documentation themselves.
There are many of us that thoroughly enjoy the very mundane interplay surrounding governmental politics, econonmic struggle, martial conquest, terrirtorial disputes, and cultural/racial tension. When magick hangs thick enough to influence many of these, it becomes tiresome. It's similar to having that unwanted and obnoxious cousin following you and your friends around no matter how much you try to avoid him.
It's not because I want to kill magickers, and it's not because I don't want anyone more powerful than myself. There are plenty of mundane people far more powerful, whether by position or by ability, than my character. I don't NEED someone who can conjure magickal fire to present obstacles to my goals. What I want is to play amidst my peers and enjoy the challenges of a simple and mundane plan set in motion without some magickal element being used to drive it forward.
The issue is that magickal entities pushing many of the current plots in the game has seemingly become the standard rather than the exception. And that frustration is what you see come up on the boards from time to time. It has nothing to do with being able to kill magickers, or being killed by them in return -- but more simply, that they are involved at all.
You want a mundane plot that doesn't involve magickers doing magicky things? Do something without trying to change the world. Have a bardic competition. I've seen those in both Tuluk and Allanak, though I'll admit less frequently in Allanak. Throw a party for socialites with some competition involved. Hell, just have some sort of competition and disallow magickers. Be prejudiced like you should be.
These kinds of things make fun for the mundanes, making it attractive to be a mundane. Continue these things and do them more often and you'll attract more people to playing the mundane roles instead of trying to set some arbitrary, silly (in my mind) and potentially just as problematic system to limit something just because some people are having a hissy over it.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: joyofdiscord on March 08, 2007, 02:43:30 PM
Post by: joyofdiscord on March 08, 2007, 02:43:30 PM
I think the speed of development of magickers vs. mundanes is not quite so different as everyone is trying to claim either. I for one have never branched even a single spell within three days. Even within five days I would consider a gift from the skill gods. Furthermore, it most certainly does not take a million bajillion days to make a mundane character dangerous. I played a burglar who was a pretty effective killer after about the 10-12 day mark and only got progressively more powerful from there. He could have been deadly much sooner, but he was a very late bloomer in developing some of his skills due to life circumstances, and he never branched backstab in his entire career. Want to guess how long it took me to get a magicker anyhere near the point where I could even think about killing a PC, or for that matter, do anything but flee if I ran into trouble? Probably a little past 12 days, and without wasting time. It wasn't exactly the "killingest" element, but not the "nicest" one either.
Magickers accomplish their goals in more spectacular ways than mundanes, so it seems like they get powerful faster. Stealthies accomplish their goals with little fanfare or notice, but they can be pretty competent at what they do from 5 days onward. All the mundane characters I've played developed and branched much faster and easier than any magicker. Mundanes tend to branch without you even thinking about it, just with natural use of the skills. Every stealthy I've played has had that nigh-untouchable feeling of power before 10 days of play. Only once have I ever had to intentionally work at branching a mundane skill, but branching spells has involved joyless grinding in almost every case, just to achieve the modest pace of growth I have mentioned.
Seriously, if you want a character that is survivable and becomes useful and versatile quickly, roll a warrior, burglar, or ranger. If you want a handful of spectacular powers that you can only use in limited circumstances (if you even live long enough to branch and develop them, which I'd say 1/2 to 2/3 of gemmed mages don't), while being useless at every normal activity and suffering from heaps of exploitable vulnerabilities, roll a magicker.
Magickers accomplish their goals in more spectacular ways than mundanes, so it seems like they get powerful faster. Stealthies accomplish their goals with little fanfare or notice, but they can be pretty competent at what they do from 5 days onward. All the mundane characters I've played developed and branched much faster and easier than any magicker. Mundanes tend to branch without you even thinking about it, just with natural use of the skills. Every stealthy I've played has had that nigh-untouchable feeling of power before 10 days of play. Only once have I ever had to intentionally work at branching a mundane skill, but branching spells has involved joyless grinding in almost every case, just to achieve the modest pace of growth I have mentioned.
Seriously, if you want a character that is survivable and becomes useful and versatile quickly, roll a warrior, burglar, or ranger. If you want a handful of spectacular powers that you can only use in limited circumstances (if you even live long enough to branch and develop them, which I'd say 1/2 to 2/3 of gemmed mages don't), while being useless at every normal activity and suffering from heaps of exploitable vulnerabilities, roll a magicker.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Hymwen on March 08, 2007, 02:54:54 PM
Post by: Hymwen on March 08, 2007, 02:54:54 PM
Spawnloser, I think LoD's point was that mundane players would like to be involved in RPT-type events that aren't just pointless drinking parties or singing competitions, without knowing that it's unlikely that magick isn't the main aspect of the plot. The history link you provided may state that magick is "what makes the world go 'round", but the documentation also says that it's rare and mysterious. It has been a long time since I had a character who didn't run into magick on a weekly basis, and it seems that many have the same "perceived problem".
There's magick everywhere I look, to the point where I can't even ignore it because it gets thrown in my character's face. My current clan is involved in a plot that is reeking of magick. I know there's magick going on in that noble house, and that one as well. I know that merchant house has had major problems with magickers in recent past. I know that several members of that combat-orientated clan over there were killed by magickers and don't even know why. I know that you can't make a tribal territorial character without having to fend off magickers at every water-hole. Some of those things are examples, but it's what the game is like to me. Maintaining this sense of "rare and mysterious magick" is very difficult when more than half of my characters have had to deal with it (or ignore its blatant presence) relatively frequently. It would be equally hard to imagine metal being super rare if a shop in the bazaar sold it, which I believe is a fair comparison.
And as a snide final, I wouldn't have as much against magickers if it wasn't because so many of them have made me wonder how the player got karma or special-app approval for a restricted guild.
There's magick everywhere I look, to the point where I can't even ignore it because it gets thrown in my character's face. My current clan is involved in a plot that is reeking of magick. I know there's magick going on in that noble house, and that one as well. I know that merchant house has had major problems with magickers in recent past. I know that several members of that combat-orientated clan over there were killed by magickers and don't even know why. I know that you can't make a tribal territorial character without having to fend off magickers at every water-hole. Some of those things are examples, but it's what the game is like to me. Maintaining this sense of "rare and mysterious magick" is very difficult when more than half of my characters have had to deal with it (or ignore its blatant presence) relatively frequently. It would be equally hard to imagine metal being super rare if a shop in the bazaar sold it, which I believe is a fair comparison.
And as a snide final, I wouldn't have as much against magickers if it wasn't because so many of them have made me wonder how the player got karma or special-app approval for a restricted guild.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LoD on March 08, 2007, 03:22:35 PM
Post by: LoD on March 08, 2007, 03:22:35 PM
Quote from: "spawnloser"And these are major plots that magickers are having grave influence on? A magicker being seen in the distance or as s/he ran past, being hunted, hunting you or a friend or demanding your leaving is NOT a major plot event. Just because someone sees a magicker while doing something doesn't mean that magickers are dominating plotlines, like everyone seems to think they are. I think this is part of the issue. Someone sees a magicker and now everything about what they're doing is influenced by a magicker and now the plot is ruined...or some such tripe.
Did I reference those events as being indicative of the "major plots" in which magickers played a role? It should be clear by the text preceding the list of events that I was demonstrating how my character noticed the permeation of magick within the mundane portions of the game.
It's so difficult not to reply to your posts with the same patronizing, condescending, and insulting tone. However, I don't believe that style of writing is either productive or warranted, and while I cannot claim to always be innocent, I can only hope that you will consider this and refrain from using it in future posts.
Quote from: "spawnloser"In response to all of this, I ask, "Have any of you actually READ the history documentation?!?"
I don't happen to believe that the same magickal agents and/or forces responsible for such events as the Cataclysm, destruction of Steinal, or the Dragon turning Zalanthas into the desert world it is today have even a remote interest in what much of the world does on a regular basis. Many of the plots people are speaking of aren't trying to change the world. They aren't even trying to change their given city/village.
I was just trying to complete mundane tasks around a city-state that is known to hate and hunt magickers, and I'd still run into them on a regular basis. I wasn't in the distant wilderness where magickers gather. I wasn't out looking for trouble in locations where I shouldn't have been -- in fact, that's what the magicker's were doing.
You can reference my previous posts for a detailed description of my arguements on how the current culture and code changes have affected the role of magick in the game, as well as why those changes have had a negative impact on the player's perception of magick in the gameworld. You'll find that my arguements do not deny that the world has always been affected at its highest level by magicks, nor do they call for an elimination of magick from plots that would obviously concern them.
There are improvements that could be made, and many of the complaints, frustrations, and fears regarding the role of magick and magickers in Arm 2 demonstrated in this thread are both pertinent and warranted. Consider the motive as well as the content, and you may come to different conclusions.
-LoD
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: X-D on March 08, 2007, 09:42:25 PM
Post by: X-D on March 08, 2007, 09:42:25 PM
First, I want to say, I voted no opinion because I don't HATE magickers, But I do hate so damm many of them.
Joyofdiscord, 12days play? If I really try I can take ANY mage class to uber deadly in 3 or less, I can do it in 5 if I spend 80% of my time NOT practicing. *DISCLAIMER* I am not saying it is right and proper to do it in 3 or less. I normaly just work really hard on getting the one or two SAVE MY ASS spells that most mages get then let everything happen from there.
Spawn...come on man, you are not giving people enough credit. Just because they are not staff does not mean that they cannot use the WHO command then do simple math.
Here is a bit of fact for you. Inside the last two weeks I logged my PC in, was in the barrel, now, when I log in I do score/stat/time/look self and who. I logged in at 7:50pm mountain time, there were 36 people on. moved to the main room of the barrel, 2 gemmed at the bar, Alright, we are currently at 1 of 18 is a mage, time was before dawn so started for the stables because my PC was heading north. passed another gemmer on the way, now we are at 1 of 12 is a mage. Got mount, waited for dawn, headed out. Hit the salt flats and saw a mage with spells on, possible it could be one of the 3 gemmers I already saw, but I doubt it. So, I'm counting, We are at 1 in 9. stopped in luirs where I saw another gemmed, this one I know was not one of the other 4, did a who, 37 players. 1 in 7.4. Continued on north, between Luirs and tuluk I saw more, and one of them at least was a sorcerer. Total now is 8 sightings, 2 of which might have been repeated. Thats 1 in 4.6. Got to tuluk, it is now 8:40pm(ish). Who says there are 38 people on. come dawn again, head out on the grasses, who states 31 people on, saw two mages, I'm sure they were repeats so not counting them, within 7 rooms of the plains gates BTW. Farther out see one more that I know was not a repeat. Returned to town and logged off at around 9:30 or so. Less then two hours, magickal sightings totalling more then 11, lets call it 9 mages with an average total number of people on at 34. Thats 1 mage for every 3.7 players in a two hour time frame. If anything, Larrath's estimate was conservative.
Go back one year when I was playing a mage and I KNOW there was more then 20 active mages playing because I was playing one myself had a group and interacted with no less then 3 other groups and that was just the ungemmed.
LoD...Good posts.
Joyofdiscord, 12days play? If I really try I can take ANY mage class to uber deadly in 3 or less, I can do it in 5 if I spend 80% of my time NOT practicing. *DISCLAIMER* I am not saying it is right and proper to do it in 3 or less. I normaly just work really hard on getting the one or two SAVE MY ASS spells that most mages get then let everything happen from there.
Spawn...come on man, you are not giving people enough credit. Just because they are not staff does not mean that they cannot use the WHO command then do simple math.
Here is a bit of fact for you. Inside the last two weeks I logged my PC in, was in the barrel, now, when I log in I do score/stat/time/look self and who. I logged in at 7:50pm mountain time, there were 36 people on. moved to the main room of the barrel, 2 gemmed at the bar, Alright, we are currently at 1 of 18 is a mage, time was before dawn so started for the stables because my PC was heading north. passed another gemmer on the way, now we are at 1 of 12 is a mage. Got mount, waited for dawn, headed out. Hit the salt flats and saw a mage with spells on, possible it could be one of the 3 gemmers I already saw, but I doubt it. So, I'm counting, We are at 1 in 9. stopped in luirs where I saw another gemmed, this one I know was not one of the other 4, did a who, 37 players. 1 in 7.4. Continued on north, between Luirs and tuluk I saw more, and one of them at least was a sorcerer. Total now is 8 sightings, 2 of which might have been repeated. Thats 1 in 4.6. Got to tuluk, it is now 8:40pm(ish). Who says there are 38 people on. come dawn again, head out on the grasses, who states 31 people on, saw two mages, I'm sure they were repeats so not counting them, within 7 rooms of the plains gates BTW. Farther out see one more that I know was not a repeat. Returned to town and logged off at around 9:30 or so. Less then two hours, magickal sightings totalling more then 11, lets call it 9 mages with an average total number of people on at 34. Thats 1 mage for every 3.7 players in a two hour time frame. If anything, Larrath's estimate was conservative.
Go back one year when I was playing a mage and I KNOW there was more then 20 active mages playing because I was playing one myself had a group and interacted with no less then 3 other groups and that was just the ungemmed.
LoD...Good posts.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on March 08, 2007, 10:41:54 PM
Post by: jhunter on March 08, 2007, 10:41:54 PM
Quote from: "LoD"Quote from: "jhunter"Read as: I can't stand the fact that there's a bunch of beings that are potentially more dangerous than mine, therefore there are too many magickers and I'm tired of running into them.
Read: I'm jhunter and cannot comprehend a single reason why people would ever criticize magickers besides one singular idea that players don't ever want another player to be more powerful than them. Again.
Stop this. This line of thinking. This erroneous and stubborn grasp on issues that aren't being described. No one is saying they want to be able to KILL magickers. No one is saying that they have problems because magicker characters can become more powerful than their mundane character.
If you botherred to read and absorb even a scrap of what is being said, you would begin to understand that many mundane players feel as if they cannot participate in a given plot or quest without often being introduced to magickal participants. I can't believe that you honestly cannot see the permeation of magikers in the curent game, as you claim.
My last character played in Tuluk. I would see something magickal every RL week. -Every- RL week. Here are a few examples:
1. A magicker attacked a friend inside the city-state using their magicks.
2. A magicker ran through a grove where my character was chopping wood about 10 leagues out of the gate. And there was nothing subtle about his display of magickal power.
3. A magicker assaulted my employees in the grasslands.
4. A magicker approached us in the same grove, invisible, and demanded we leave because they were the "Protector of the grove."
5. An invisible magicker was spotted on the North Road.
6. A magicker was seen by my character moving through the grasslands with visible and full displays of magickal ability.
7. A templar organized no less than 3 hunts where magickers were physically seen and chased through the area.
I didn't go out of my way to find magickers. I didn't visit completely remote areas of the gameworld in hopes of finding them. I moved on roads between cities, across small sections of commonly travelled hunting grounds, and throughout the wilderness areas surrounding the sprawling city-states. And that was just what was witnessed by one character.
And did I ever attack one? No. Did I ever kill one? No. Did I ever chase one around by myself? No.
In a land where magicks are supposed to be rare and mysterious, they were anything but that. They were a consistent part of our weekly activities, and that is just my personal experience. It may vary, but I know that other players, even city-based characters, have had just as many or more experiences with magickers or psionicists.
For once, some people want to be part of a quest that doesn't involve some sorcerous master, minions of undead, legions of magickally influenced beasts, vampires, invisible voices, or any number of these magickal elements. When Imms use magickal characters to further these plot lines, it often dooms such a hope from the start. People seem to think that if it doesn't have shiny sparks, flames, or invisibility, that it's boring.
There are many of us that thoroughly enjoy the very mundane interplay surrounding governmental politics, econonmic struggle, martial conquest, terrirtorial disputes, and cultural/racial tension. When magick hangs thick enough to influence many of these, it becomes tiresome. It's similar to having that unwanted and obnoxious cousin following you and your friends around no matter how much you try to avoid him.
It's not because I want to kill magickers, and it's not because I don't want anyone more powerful than myself. There are plenty of mundane people far more powerful, whether by position or by ability, than my character. I don't NEED someone who can conjure magickal fire to present obstacles to my goals. What I want is to play amidst my peers and enjoy the challenges of a simple and mundane plan set in motion without some magickal element being used to drive it forward.
The issue is that magickal entities pushing many of the current plots in the game has seemingly become the standard rather than the exception. And that frustration is what you see come up on the boards from time to time. It has nothing to do with being able to kill magickers, or being killed by them in return -- but more simply, that they are involved at all.
-LoD
Thanks for stooping to personal attacks LoD. Real conducive to discussion.
Quote from: "Me"I honestly feel with all my heart that 75% of it is people's personal issues with magick itself
Note: I did specify 75%, not all, everyone, 100% or any such absurd thing. I am allowed to post my opinion and not be attacked for it thankyouverymuch.
What that means, since you seem to have an issue comprehending the viewpoints or opinions of anyone that disagrees with you on the subject and keep clinging to the stubborn and rather naive stance that "everyone is just being straight forward and none of the people posting such have an ulterior motive for chiming in agreement with something that will help to further their own goals", is that I -am- saying I believe some people who aren't actually experiencing such (since from my own personal experience I haven't seen -anything- like it) are exaggerating to help turn the game toward their own personal ideal of what it should be.
Quote from: "LoD"It's not because I want to kill magickers, and it's not because I don't want anyone more powerful than myself.
If you aren't one of these mundanes, then don't respond personally. However, just because YOU wouldn't run around the thornlands hideyholes, caves on the fringes of tablelands, or deep in the forests, or other ruins frequented by magickers doesn't mean that all mundanes don't. They do. And they are representative of the types of mundanes I am speaking of here, who don't respect these boundaries and, thus, invite and warrant the often aggressive attention of the magicker populace they should hope to avoid.
Does anyone else spot the irony here? :roll:
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Nile on March 08, 2007, 10:54:11 PM
Post by: Nile on March 08, 2007, 10:54:11 PM
I think all the gickers is taking away from city life a lot.
I log in, see theres 50 players in the world...Figure I head to a tavern for some interaction, out of 6 taverns I check, not a single one has a PC in there.
Am I missing some secret RPTs or what :P
I log in, see theres 50 players in the world...Figure I head to a tavern for some interaction, out of 6 taverns I check, not a single one has a PC in there.
Am I missing some secret RPTs or what :P
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LoD on March 09, 2007, 01:54:31 AM
Post by: LoD on March 09, 2007, 01:54:31 AM
Quote from: "jhunter"Note: I did specify 75%, not all, everyone, 100% or any such absurd thing. I am allowed to post my opinion and not be attacked for it thankyouverymuch.
I apologize if you feel insulted, jhunter. It really wasn't my intention, and I agree that it isn't conducive to discussion. However, my beef is with the same arguement that rears its ugly head every time you respond to one of these threads. You don't address the issues people are bringing forward, instead you claim that everyone's arguements are a disguise for their true agenda -- a conspiracy to make "magehunting" easier.
I have a hard time believing that 3 out of 4 players criticize magick because they don't want anyone more powerful than their character and are tired of running into people that are. The mere existence of templars, nobles, and other authority figures already sets most PC's up to be inferior to a healthy supply of characters in the game.
Why would these 75% focus solely on magickers and not focus on these social authority figures who hold power and sway over their PC's? Why don't we see as many, "I hate templars." or "I hate nobles." threads if people are truly being motivated by their characters running into beings that are more powerful?
That's why I have trouble validating the arguement. It doesn't seem to hold up logically is all. It also seems that many people have commented that they don't mind magick, that they enjoy the magick of Armageddon, but enjoy what it brings to the game as a rare and myseterious component rather than a frequent and heavy handed plot driving tool. And I really have to agree with many of them based solely on my experiences.
Does it really seem more likely to you that the perception people have regarding magickers is based upon 3 out of 4 characters purposefully wandering the deep portions of the wilderness in order to hunt them down? Or is it more likely that the current game culture, especially in the northlands, provides far too few opportunities for non-violent interaction between the magicker and mundane character? I argue for the latter.
Mages cannot be common and feared in the way you argue they should be. Magick needs to be rare and mysterious in order to retain its sense of wonder, terror, and surprise. The current game does not appropriately reflect that rare and mysterious status, thus, many of the players are encountering problems when interacting with magickers. Some of them cannot seem to escape, despite being city-bound and purposefully trying to avoid magickal interaction.
It's my opinion that the Cataclysm and the alienation of magickers in the northlands was one of the worst things to happen to the game. There's nothing that can be done about that now, except to view and discuss the results and consider them when designing the new game. And that's what I hope results from all this.
-LoD
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: spawnloser on March 09, 2007, 05:19:22 AM
Post by: spawnloser on March 09, 2007, 05:19:22 AM
Hymwen:
Don't play a bard then, if you think that everything they do is pointless.
Oh, and as I've said, stop playing exceptional characters if you don't want to run across magick. If you go outside your tribe's village or city's walls, expect to have to deal with the worst the world has to offer...and sometimes, that's your fellow players playing magickers that have been forced into roles that leave them in the wastes competing with all those mundane characters whose players are bitching because the magickers are there. You don't want to see magickers? Never leave Tuluk. I've NEVER had a problem with coming across magickers with any character I've played in Tuluk, and if I'm not playing a tribal, nearly half my characters are Tulukis.
Again, for clarification, if you want to do something that is above and beyond what your truly average Zalanthan does in his/her life, don't expect to never come across a magicker.
LoD:
I've seen noone describe which plots have been affected, only that every plot has magickers in them. I think this is a ridiculous statement. As I said, there are plenty of plots that people can engage in that have nothing to do with magickal might, even though they may include magickers, those magickers aren't participating because they're magickers or to do magickal things. The last Luirsfest, for example, had a few gemmers show up to participate, as I recall. Did they do magicker stuff? No. They did the same stuff that everyone else did in the same ways.
Also, you said that magickers were affecting plots and then proceeded to list how magickers were so abundant. I assumed you were drawing a correlation from one to the next. If not, why mention them one after the other?
To give MY experience, though, my current character is too far removed to make any real observations with...but my previous character that lived for longer than a couple weeks was played in Tuluk and for not a short time. I saw zero magickers until I went to Allanak on business. I was outside ALL THE TIME.
As far as your earlier posts about how the culture has helped to create an environment that forces magickers into primarily antagonistic roles instead of letting them just live a life like everyone else? Yeah, I've read them and agree. That's why I didn't post a counter-point to what you said in them. I suggest you do the same. I'm solely arguing against what I find to be exaggerated claims and reactionary thought generated in a large part by people that just dislike magickers, as some people have actually admitted to.
Editted to add: Oh, and as others have said, and I'm sure they're right, the fact that the game is ending soon very likely has had many people rolling up magickers that they've always wanted to try and have only a limited time to do so before 1.Arm ends. This is something that will be taken care of in the natural order of things...when 1.Arm ends. You can't use the last 3 months as a proper gauge for measuring anything, in my opinion. Go back a bit further for data and I might find your arguments that there have been too many more seriously.
Don't play a bard then, if you think that everything they do is pointless.
Oh, and as I've said, stop playing exceptional characters if you don't want to run across magick. If you go outside your tribe's village or city's walls, expect to have to deal with the worst the world has to offer...and sometimes, that's your fellow players playing magickers that have been forced into roles that leave them in the wastes competing with all those mundane characters whose players are bitching because the magickers are there. You don't want to see magickers? Never leave Tuluk. I've NEVER had a problem with coming across magickers with any character I've played in Tuluk, and if I'm not playing a tribal, nearly half my characters are Tulukis.
Again, for clarification, if you want to do something that is above and beyond what your truly average Zalanthan does in his/her life, don't expect to never come across a magicker.
LoD:
I've seen noone describe which plots have been affected, only that every plot has magickers in them. I think this is a ridiculous statement. As I said, there are plenty of plots that people can engage in that have nothing to do with magickal might, even though they may include magickers, those magickers aren't participating because they're magickers or to do magickal things. The last Luirsfest, for example, had a few gemmers show up to participate, as I recall. Did they do magicker stuff? No. They did the same stuff that everyone else did in the same ways.
Also, you said that magickers were affecting plots and then proceeded to list how magickers were so abundant. I assumed you were drawing a correlation from one to the next. If not, why mention them one after the other?
To give MY experience, though, my current character is too far removed to make any real observations with...but my previous character that lived for longer than a couple weeks was played in Tuluk and for not a short time. I saw zero magickers until I went to Allanak on business. I was outside ALL THE TIME.
As far as your earlier posts about how the culture has helped to create an environment that forces magickers into primarily antagonistic roles instead of letting them just live a life like everyone else? Yeah, I've read them and agree. That's why I didn't post a counter-point to what you said in them. I suggest you do the same. I'm solely arguing against what I find to be exaggerated claims and reactionary thought generated in a large part by people that just dislike magickers, as some people have actually admitted to.
Editted to add: Oh, and as others have said, and I'm sure they're right, the fact that the game is ending soon very likely has had many people rolling up magickers that they've always wanted to try and have only a limited time to do so before 1.Arm ends. This is something that will be taken care of in the natural order of things...when 1.Arm ends. You can't use the last 3 months as a proper gauge for measuring anything, in my opinion. Go back a bit further for data and I might find your arguments that there have been too many more seriously.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on March 09, 2007, 05:34:55 AM
Post by: jhunter on March 09, 2007, 05:34:55 AM
Quote from: "LoD"That's why I have trouble validating the arguement. It doesn't seem to hold up logically is all. It also seems that many people have commented that they don't mind magick, that they enjoy the magick of Armageddon, but enjoy what it brings to the game as a rare and myseterious component rather than a frequent and heavy handed plot driving tool. And I really have to agree with many of them based solely on my experiences.
It holds up as a logical possibility when you take into account recent events in game. It also makes it very hard for me to believe when my personal experiences have been so far removed from what people are saying is so common. I mean, if it were really that bad...wouldn't I have seen some inkling of this myself? If it were truly that bad, wouldn't we agree on some middle ground rather than there being such a wide range and variance on our experiences regarding magick? This is what makes me believe that there is truly some exaggeration of the issue going on, whatever the reasons may be.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on March 09, 2007, 05:41:45 AM
Post by: jhunter on March 09, 2007, 05:41:45 AM
Quote from: "LoD"However, my beef is with the same arguement that rears its ugly head every time you respond to one of these threads.
It does because my first several mage attempts ended with my mage pc killed in their very -first- encounter with a -single- mundane pc and my pc was not the aggressor. (In fact, I've never killed a pc with a magicker.) On the side of mundanes, several times I witnessed other mundanes chasing after mages by themselves and such. I've seen pcs acting poorly toward gemmed mages, showing zero fear or superstition toward them and even open hostility without fear of retaliation. It's a real sensitive subject to me when people talk as if mundanes are somehow getting the shaft. It's a real challenge to play a mage in this game, outlaw or gemmed for many different reasons that have nothing to do with how "powerful" you are. Even with all the potential for power, I still find the mages to be one of the most difficult things in the game to play.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Pantoufle on March 09, 2007, 06:00:59 AM
Post by: Pantoufle on March 09, 2007, 06:00:59 AM
I think a great deal of the problem centering round the current strength of magick based guilds is how it compares to the other powers that be. After a while, great merchant houses and noble houses do not feel very powerful at all (yet they should) when surrounded by a host of well-practised mages swarming throughout the game. I say this and yet I'm not going anywhere near the argument that there are too many mages or that they are too powerful. I'd just like to see other, equally threatening forces with actual coded powers besides that of the mages of the game. A mage needs one thing only: skills. A clan which allegedly is supposed to be powerful and influential on the other hand needs actual players, otherwise its power is only virtual and, consequently, no one really fears or respects them. Because, honestly, who would you really fear hunting you more? House Whomever or that nameless renegade mage you have just upset?
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Hymwen on March 09, 2007, 11:26:58 AM
Post by: Hymwen on March 09, 2007, 11:26:58 AM
Quote from: "spawnloser"Again, for clarification, if you want to do something that is above and beyond what your truly average Zalanthan does in his/her life, don't expect to never come across a magicker.
Nice of you to assume things that I never said. I wonder where you got the idea that I'm playing exceptional characters... I think anyone who knows me well can agree that if there's one thing I don't do, it's play the kind of character that you described. Is it "bad" to:
Be in the Tablelands as a Soh elf?
Hunt in the grasslands as a Tuluki?
Go mining or salt grebbing as an Allanaki?
I've seen plenty of illegal magicks even inside the walls of Allanak. Almost every one of my characters have had to deal with it in some way or another - my current one especially is forced into a plot that is so obviously magickal all the way through, and it's just one example of how it (to me) is absolutely impossible to consider magick rare and mysterious. I'm not saying that magick shouldn't exist, but I am in absolute disagreement with those who say that it's not too blatant and common in the world. You don't need to roam the deep deserts or dark forests to see magick frequently.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Khorm on March 09, 2007, 11:36:27 AM
Post by: Khorm on March 09, 2007, 11:36:27 AM
Quote from: "Hymwen"Quote from: "spawnloser"Again, for clarification, if you want to do something that is above and beyond what your truly average Zalanthan does in his/her life, don't expect to never come across a magicker.
Nice of you to assume things that I never said. I wonder where you got the idea that I'm playing exceptional characters... I think anyone who knows me well can agree that if there's one thing I don't do, it's play the kind of character that you described.
If your character is getting involved in 'plot driven by magick', then he's most definitely doing something above and beyond what your truly average Zalanthan does in his/her life.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Hymwen on March 09, 2007, 11:46:04 AM
Post by: Hymwen on March 09, 2007, 11:46:04 AM
No, she's doing what a very large percentage of the city-state of Allanak is doing, actually. But I won't go into detail for obvious reasons. My point is that it certainly doesn't take anything out of the ordinary to get involved with magicks (unless I've been extremely unlucky over and over and over again?) and that people should stop making baseless assumptions that make them look stupid.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Khorm on March 09, 2007, 12:12:57 PM
Post by: Khorm on March 09, 2007, 12:12:57 PM
Since I got torn apart by the ever destructive "no, ______, actually" argument, I'll just say that people should be playing what they want to play.
If it threatens the integrity of your Armageddon, too goddamn bad.
If it threatens the integrity of your Armageddon, too goddamn bad.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: X-D on March 09, 2007, 12:32:07 PM
Post by: X-D on March 09, 2007, 12:32:07 PM
Um....NO, it threatons The Integrity of Documented armageddon as written by Staff.
Farther more, about 5 years ago, anybody with the karma could play muls and such when ever they wanted. They became special app because too many people were doing so.
Farther more, about 5 years ago, anybody with the karma could play muls and such when ever they wanted. They became special app because too many people were doing so.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Tarx on March 09, 2007, 12:34:13 PM
Post by: Tarx on March 09, 2007, 12:34:13 PM
No, my character is a mul sorcerer named Amos, actually.
This thread needs more kittens.
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287/icarusaquanaut/gemm.jpg)[/img]
This thread needs more kittens.
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287/icarusaquanaut/gemm.jpg)[/img]
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: bloodfromstone on March 09, 2007, 12:39:59 PM
Post by: bloodfromstone on March 09, 2007, 12:39:59 PM
QuoteSince I got torn apart by the ever destructive "no, ______, actually" argument, I'll just say that people should be playing what they want to play.
Sorry, but you kind of asked for it, since more than one person has already posted accounts of being about as normal as a PC can get and still interesting (especially that 'rinthi elf) and still encountering magick.
QuoteIf it threatens the integrity of your Armageddon, too goddamn bad.
It may seem like the logical and productive path to simply blow off the entire discussion, but unfortunately, that's what the board is supposed to be for. If you don't want to see discussions, you're probably in the wrong place.
It is silly to say 'If your character does anything exceptional at all, you can't complain about magick.' Every PC is going to be exceptional. By this rational, it is completely okay for every PC ever to always be involved with magick. By that rational, magick would be widely less feared and awed over - which is about where we stand now, and neither side is happy. Some say 'Too many magickers!' and the others respond 'The real problem is that mundanes don't react properly!' The latter is caused by the former, or at least perpetuated.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on March 09, 2007, 12:51:02 PM
Post by: jhunter on March 09, 2007, 12:51:02 PM
QuoteI've seen plenty of illegal magicks even inside the walls of Allanak. Almost every one of my characters have had to deal with it in some way or another - my current one especially is forced into a plot that is so obviously magickal all the way through, and it's just one example of how it (to me) is absolutely impossible to consider magick rare and mysterious. I'm not saying that magick shouldn't exist, but I am in absolute disagreement with those who say that it's not too blatant and common in the world. You don't need to roam the deep deserts or dark forests to see magick frequently.
That's like saying it's wrong to see plenty of templars in Allanak. You should expect to encounter a magicker or see magick at -least-(meaning barest minimum) once in the lifetime of -any- Allanaki character, IMO.
See, there's this place called the Elementalist's Quarter and these people (who are magickers) that are accepted in the city so long as they wear this little black gem. It's -in- Allanak. There's also these warrior priests known as templars that are pretty widely known to wield magick as well who live there too.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Khorm on March 09, 2007, 01:05:25 PM
Post by: Khorm on March 09, 2007, 01:05:25 PM
Quote from: "bloodfromstone"
It may seem like the logical and productive path to simply blow off the entire discussion, but unfortunately, that's what the board is supposed to be for. If you don't want to see discussions, you're probably in the wrong place.
It is silly to say 'If your character does anything exceptional at all, you can't complain about magick.' Every PC is going to be exceptional. By this rational, it is completely okay for every PC ever to always be involved with magick. By that rational, magick would be widely less feared and awed over - which is about where we stand now, and neither side is happy. Some say 'Too many magickers!' and the others respond 'The real problem is that mundanes don't react properly!' The latter is caused by the former, or at least perpetuated.
I'm simply stating my take on it, which is more or less adding to the discussion, right?
If every PC is exceptional, then I would probably expect to encounter other exceptional personalities.. magickers included. Across the known world, magick is rare. Compared to the population of NPCs and VNPCs, magick is rare. If there are 30 people online, and each is searching for some sort of worthwhile interaction, then chances are magick is going to come to you at one point or another.
I just don't buy the argument that because everyone one of your characters encounters magick at some point, it is somehow less rare.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: bloodfromstone on March 09, 2007, 01:08:05 PM
Post by: bloodfromstone on March 09, 2007, 01:08:05 PM
QuoteI just don't buy the argument that because everyone one of your characters encounters magick at some point, it is somehow less rare.
I cannot even begin to respond to this. I'm not trying to be rude, but that is just silly. Of course if everyone encounters magick, it is less rare! We can all put on a surprised face every time magick comes by, but it's all going to be skin deep, half-hearted roleplaying if the players themselves are rolling their eyes.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Marauder Moe on March 09, 2007, 01:14:23 PM
Post by: Marauder Moe on March 09, 2007, 01:14:23 PM
Just because 99% Allanaki PCs are free doesn't mean that 50% of the population of Allanak isn't enslaved in some form or another.
How is that statement so different from what Khorm said?
Your characters are abnormal in more ways than just the amount of magick they encounter, yet no one complains nearly as much about too many PCs being free citizens, or noble aides, or nobles, or people rich enough to not have to beg.
How is that statement so different from what Khorm said?
Your characters are abnormal in more ways than just the amount of magick they encounter, yet no one complains nearly as much about too many PCs being free citizens, or noble aides, or nobles, or people rich enough to not have to beg.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Supreme Allah on March 09, 2007, 01:15:02 PM
Post by: Supreme Allah on March 09, 2007, 01:15:02 PM
I agree with Khorm's statements - past, present, and future - completely.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LoD on March 09, 2007, 01:17:40 PM
Post by: LoD on March 09, 2007, 01:17:40 PM
Quote from: "jhunter"QuoteI've seen plenty of illegal magicks even inside the walls of Allanak...<snip>
That's like saying it's wrong to see plenty of templars in Allanak. You should expect to encounter a magicker or see magick at -least-(meaning barest minimum) once in the lifetime of -any- Allanaki character, IMO.
See, there's this place called the Elementalist's Quarter and these people (who are magickers) that are accepted in the city so long as they wear this little black gem. It's -in- Allanak. There's also these warrior priests known as templars that are pretty widely known to wield magick as well who live there too.
They state illegal[/b] magicks in the first sentence, jhunter.
Gemmed magickers and templar magick aren't considered illegal.
That would mean they are referencing magickers that are not part of the accepted, tolerated, or widely used magickal peoples populating the city-state, but rather a subset of magickers that exist in addition to these people. In fact, their first sentence specifies "even in Allanak", meaning that Allanak is only one location in which they've witnessed these illegal magicks. The sarcasm doesn't help the situation either.
Referring to the comments that claim encountering the rare and mysterious should be expected because we are playing "exceptional" characters, I'm not sure that really works. To some degree, yes, a noble or templar probably has a higher chance of interacting with a magicker due to their position and authority. However, I had a character that followed a fairly strict regimen of hunting the same group of land, none of which was more than 10 leagues from a road or city wall, and still encountered quite a few magickers. Was that character "exceptional"? Not really. Their life seemed to be indicative of many of the VNPC and NPC hunters for the House.
The problem is that the documentation sets up an unrealistic expectation on the part of both players; magick and mundane. Operating under the assumption that our characters are "exceptional" creates issues by people beginning to play the "exception" to the rule. Magickers and mundanes both are emboldened. Magickers aren't being quite as careful as they should be, and neither are the mundanes. Does this "exceptional" play really help promote an environment that both sides want to see? I'm not sure that it does.
As many have mentioned, arguing what's been going on with 1.Arm in the last few months isn't really productive. There are many lessons to be learned from how magick has progressed through the game in the last 10 years. And it's good to discuss and debate how to use that information when making suggestions on how to create a better "environment" with rare and mysterious magicks in 2.Arm without completly removing the aspects of magick play that people enjoy.
-LoD
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: bloodfromstone on March 09, 2007, 01:22:19 PM
Post by: bloodfromstone on March 09, 2007, 01:22:19 PM
QuoteHow is that statement so different from what Khorm said?
It is different because no one is expecting people to act surprised and impressed that their character isn't a beggar.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Marauder Moe on March 09, 2007, 01:38:48 PM
Post by: Marauder Moe on March 09, 2007, 01:38:48 PM
Really? Being a noble's aide should be a pretty huge deal. Aides are supposed to be socially higher than a freaking militia sergeant. Aides should be seen has having a great deal of power and prestige. They have the ear of an actual noble, afterall, as well as a fair amount of money. If someone tells you they're a noble's aide, your average poor commoner should be pretty damned impressed and envious. They're not, though, because in the PC population there's usually at least one aide for each noble, usually 8 in Allanak. Not too different from the average the number of gemmed...
A lot of you people seem to have trouble recognizing that there is a difference between Armageddon and Zalanthas. Armageddon the game is a subset of Zalanthas the world. Armageddon the game does not,, however, and is not meant to be, an even cross-section of Zalanthas. It emphasizes some things (nobles/aides, magickers, merchants, free commoners), and de-emphasizes others (slaves, farmers, some tribes). You're not supposed to roleplay as though the PC population is a perfect representation of the vNPC population.
If your character sees a lot of magick, so what? If they get a little desensitized to it, so what? Just don't presume that just because you and maybe many of your friends are a bit desensitized to magick, everyone else is also. Recognize that your character has an abnormal life, and that your experiences make you different. Maybe they're cursed, maybe just unlucky, whatever.
A lot of you people seem to have trouble recognizing that there is a difference between Armageddon and Zalanthas. Armageddon the game is a subset of Zalanthas the world. Armageddon the game does not,, however, and is not meant to be, an even cross-section of Zalanthas. It emphasizes some things (nobles/aides, magickers, merchants, free commoners), and de-emphasizes others (slaves, farmers, some tribes). You're not supposed to roleplay as though the PC population is a perfect representation of the vNPC population.
If your character sees a lot of magick, so what? If they get a little desensitized to it, so what? Just don't presume that just because you and maybe many of your friends are a bit desensitized to magick, everyone else is also. Recognize that your character has an abnormal life, and that your experiences make you different. Maybe they're cursed, maybe just unlucky, whatever.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Melody on March 09, 2007, 02:15:17 PM
Post by: Melody on March 09, 2007, 02:15:17 PM
Quote from: "Marauder Moe"
If your character sees a lot of magick, so what? If they get a little desensitized to it, so what? Just don't presume that just because you and maybe many of your friends are a bit desensitized to magick, everyone else is also. Recognize that your character has an abnormal life, and that your experiences make you different. Maybe they're cursed, maybe just unlucky, whatever.
It isn't just one character. It's every single one of my characters, and it happens to some others too. Most of the encounters are within city walls. Here's a not so recent but isn't terribly old example that reflects an extremity in the argument, and actually it happened:
There are about eight characters in a well frequented tavern. Six of them are not mundane. All six of them are not gemmed.
So what?
It's all good and fun. But once it happens too often, the enjoyment diminishes.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Tarx on March 09, 2007, 02:27:45 PM
Post by: Tarx on March 09, 2007, 02:27:45 PM
QuoteThere are about eight characters in a well frequented tavern. Six of them are not mundane. All six of them are not gemmed.
I'm just going to note that the last sentence there seems exceptionally odd.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Shoka Windrunner on March 09, 2007, 02:30:30 PM
Post by: Shoka Windrunner on March 09, 2007, 02:30:30 PM
I guess we can all argue till we are blue in the fingers. But it won't change anyone's opinion I think. Actually I like magickers as I have said before. I enjoy playing them. And I enjoy fucking with people as a magicker in the following ways:
I attempt to intimidate them, in ways like toying with my dull black gem.
I have a current character who is mindfucking people because of what my character has gone through becoming a magicker. It's not my fault! I was born this way and didn't have a choice! I'm sorry that if for some of you that makes you feel unhappy cause MAGICKERS SHOULDN'T BE LIKE THAT! They are EVIL! No actually any mundane's perception of magick is that it is evil. If someone who couldn't adapt and rationalize the fact that they suddenly find out that they are a magicker, then they would probably kill themselves as the anathema they fell like. However, if a magicker comes and dumps cold hard logic on your head, you can deny it all you want. But it makes you think. Once upon a time certain races of humans were considered not human. Someone sat down and thought about this later and decided that wasn't true. After it was shown to them by those races of human that that is not true. (this was about a post I saw somewhere in this thread)
Cast a non violent spell on someone from a distant, and fuck with them.
I don't however randomly kill people in game. As a 'powerful' magicker I haven't killed a single PC ever. Except the one my char hated years ago. No PC's. Barely any NPC's except in defense. So I guess I never saw this problem of magicker raiders really.
Now...I do other things as well but this brings me to my next point. Documentation states you should be scared to fuck of magick. Okay. How many years since the world blew up anyway? In the near future we are going to fast forward another 500 years. Maybe this is the beginning of how the new world will be. More magick. Maybe more accepted. I don't have a clue though. But it's probably going to be accepted in certain areas. And it should be. You can pit a Whiran, Rukkian, Vivaduan, and Krathi against any other group of people caught in a cataclysm, and guess who is probably going to survive and who isn't?
Someone I know is going to say well no one will ever respect a half-elf. No one ever looks at a mul like another person. No one ever trusts an elf.
Yes, they do. Maybe to their own detriment, or to their own ridicule by others but it happens. Some people hate magickers, but maybe you should think about what your saying. I can argue the logic of why people shouldn't fear magickers anymore as much. It's not hard to do. Some magickers suck ass and kill people. Others try to help and fit in. Some live by themselves and want to be left alone just like you do. Do you have to approach someone you see in the wild just because you can tell they are a PC? No. So don't. That doesn't mean that everyone does.
If magick is indeed that common, maybe people should be getting used to it. If you can say that the average person in Allanak meets magick all the time, perhaps it isn't that rare. Maybe, just maybe, it doesn't need to be that rare. Maybe people should be getting more used to it. You don't have to like it, but even Republicans and Democrats can occasionally work together on things.
I think honestly there is some RP on both sides that players don't agree with and don't ever see themselves playing. That's the trap of criticizing how something is RPed. To others, you look like a twit, just like they look like a twit to you. That's because everyone is different.
Magick is a part of Arm. I'll agree, Magickers get scary really fast. They do. It doesn't take that long. I doubt 3 days would make you invincible unless all you did was cast spells, spamming or RPing them out would make little difference. But it's been said by the Staff they are supposed to be scary.
I will say this, I think other classes should be scary as well, or scarier anyway. Maybe they should start with skills a little better than they do now. At least at a level that a ranger can actually hunt without getting his ass handed to himself constantly. It should be possible to just start a character who is mundane, who works and lives off the wild, and be able to do that from the start.
Maybe then people wouldn't spar all day, god damn I hate sparring, which is why I play magickers or non combat PC's mostly. I hate trying to be an assassin who can barely stab himself, let alone someone or something else. I hate being a ranger who gets his ass handed to him, hunting the things near where he starts, things he has learned and trained for years to hunt, and get's his ass kicked.
Make everyone a bit more even at the start, and playing a magicker wouldn't be so appealing. I say I hate sparring, that is because I feel like a twink doing it. If I didn't have to spar, if I improved through actually doing my chosen profession and not from sparring, I would be so much happier. I would play a much wider variety of roles. But I've played Arm off and on for a long time. I know what is enjoyable to me and what isn't. So maybe you need to decide that maybe people enjoy playing magickers and don't like playing mundanes. Make everyone start at a decent level of skills. That goes for every class there is. I'd rather roleplay, make skills a secondary thing completely, and just have fun and live. If you want to start with no knowledge and learn in game, then put that in your background, wish it up and ask for your skills to be lowered to represent that. That's your choice as well.
BUT that is my idea of fun, and maybe not yours. So sue me.
I attempt to intimidate them, in ways like toying with my dull black gem.
I have a current character who is mindfucking people because of what my character has gone through becoming a magicker. It's not my fault! I was born this way and didn't have a choice! I'm sorry that if for some of you that makes you feel unhappy cause MAGICKERS SHOULDN'T BE LIKE THAT! They are EVIL! No actually any mundane's perception of magick is that it is evil. If someone who couldn't adapt and rationalize the fact that they suddenly find out that they are a magicker, then they would probably kill themselves as the anathema they fell like. However, if a magicker comes and dumps cold hard logic on your head, you can deny it all you want. But it makes you think. Once upon a time certain races of humans were considered not human. Someone sat down and thought about this later and decided that wasn't true. After it was shown to them by those races of human that that is not true. (this was about a post I saw somewhere in this thread)
Cast a non violent spell on someone from a distant, and fuck with them.
I don't however randomly kill people in game. As a 'powerful' magicker I haven't killed a single PC ever. Except the one my char hated years ago. No PC's. Barely any NPC's except in defense. So I guess I never saw this problem of magicker raiders really.
Now...I do other things as well but this brings me to my next point. Documentation states you should be scared to fuck of magick. Okay. How many years since the world blew up anyway? In the near future we are going to fast forward another 500 years. Maybe this is the beginning of how the new world will be. More magick. Maybe more accepted. I don't have a clue though. But it's probably going to be accepted in certain areas. And it should be. You can pit a Whiran, Rukkian, Vivaduan, and Krathi against any other group of people caught in a cataclysm, and guess who is probably going to survive and who isn't?
Someone I know is going to say well no one will ever respect a half-elf. No one ever looks at a mul like another person. No one ever trusts an elf.
Yes, they do. Maybe to their own detriment, or to their own ridicule by others but it happens. Some people hate magickers, but maybe you should think about what your saying. I can argue the logic of why people shouldn't fear magickers anymore as much. It's not hard to do. Some magickers suck ass and kill people. Others try to help and fit in. Some live by themselves and want to be left alone just like you do. Do you have to approach someone you see in the wild just because you can tell they are a PC? No. So don't. That doesn't mean that everyone does.
If magick is indeed that common, maybe people should be getting used to it. If you can say that the average person in Allanak meets magick all the time, perhaps it isn't that rare. Maybe, just maybe, it doesn't need to be that rare. Maybe people should be getting more used to it. You don't have to like it, but even Republicans and Democrats can occasionally work together on things.
I think honestly there is some RP on both sides that players don't agree with and don't ever see themselves playing. That's the trap of criticizing how something is RPed. To others, you look like a twit, just like they look like a twit to you. That's because everyone is different.
Magick is a part of Arm. I'll agree, Magickers get scary really fast. They do. It doesn't take that long. I doubt 3 days would make you invincible unless all you did was cast spells, spamming or RPing them out would make little difference. But it's been said by the Staff they are supposed to be scary.
I will say this, I think other classes should be scary as well, or scarier anyway. Maybe they should start with skills a little better than they do now. At least at a level that a ranger can actually hunt without getting his ass handed to himself constantly. It should be possible to just start a character who is mundane, who works and lives off the wild, and be able to do that from the start.
Maybe then people wouldn't spar all day, god damn I hate sparring, which is why I play magickers or non combat PC's mostly. I hate trying to be an assassin who can barely stab himself, let alone someone or something else. I hate being a ranger who gets his ass handed to him, hunting the things near where he starts, things he has learned and trained for years to hunt, and get's his ass kicked.
Make everyone a bit more even at the start, and playing a magicker wouldn't be so appealing. I say I hate sparring, that is because I feel like a twink doing it. If I didn't have to spar, if I improved through actually doing my chosen profession and not from sparring, I would be so much happier. I would play a much wider variety of roles. But I've played Arm off and on for a long time. I know what is enjoyable to me and what isn't. So maybe you need to decide that maybe people enjoy playing magickers and don't like playing mundanes. Make everyone start at a decent level of skills. That goes for every class there is. I'd rather roleplay, make skills a secondary thing completely, and just have fun and live. If you want to start with no knowledge and learn in game, then put that in your background, wish it up and ask for your skills to be lowered to represent that. That's your choice as well.
BUT that is my idea of fun, and maybe not yours. So sue me.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LauraMars on March 09, 2007, 02:33:18 PM
Post by: LauraMars on March 09, 2007, 02:33:18 PM
*touches this thread with a ten foot pole*
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: spawnloser on March 09, 2007, 03:04:55 PM
Post by: spawnloser on March 09, 2007, 03:04:55 PM
Hymwen, the majority of people are slaves, so you're hardly doing anything that the majority is doing. The majority of the non-slaves are poor and hardly ever have spare coin lying around. They rarely see a temlar, much less interact with them. They don't work for a noble house or a great merchant house. Your character is exceptional by Zalanthan standards. Get used to the idea.
Just because you've come across magick, by the way, that doesn't mean it's no longer mysterious to your character. Addressing the rare issue? You encounter magick 3 times in a characters life. How old is your character? A good average seems to be in the 20's, so that's once every 7 to 10 years, on average. Sounds pretty rare to me.
Just because you've come across magick, by the way, that doesn't mean it's no longer mysterious to your character. Addressing the rare issue? You encounter magick 3 times in a characters life. How old is your character? A good average seems to be in the 20's, so that's once every 7 to 10 years, on average. Sounds pretty rare to me.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Hymwen on March 09, 2007, 04:07:43 PM
Post by: Hymwen on March 09, 2007, 04:07:43 PM
Quote from: "jhunter"QuoteI've seen plenty of illegal magicks even inside the walls of Allanak. Almost every one of my characters have had to deal with it in some way or another - my current one especially is forced into a plot that is so obviously magickal all the way through, and it's just one example of how it (to me) is absolutely impossible to consider magick rare and mysterious. I'm not saying that magick shouldn't exist, but I am in absolute disagreement with those who say that it's not too blatant and common in the world. You don't need to roam the deep deserts or dark forests to see magick frequently.
That's like saying it's wrong to see plenty of templars in Allanak. You should expect to encounter a magicker or see magick at -least-(meaning barest minimum) once in the lifetime of -any- Allanaki character, IMO.
See, there's this place called the Elementalist's Quarter and these people (who are magickers) that are accepted in the city so long as they wear this little black gem. It's -in- Allanak. There's also these warrior priests known as templars that are pretty widely known to wield magick as well who live there too.
I'm very sorry, I thought I made it clear when I said "illegal magicks" that I wasn't referring to the legal gemmed magickers or the very legal templars. My apologies. By illegal I mean things that aren't allowed/expected such as magicker attacks in the Barrel, people getting hauled around by whirans, and strange creatures appearing for unnatural reasons.
I've seen more acts of hostile magick than I have seen murders committed between mundane people, across all my characters. Just saying, for no particular reason.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LoD on March 09, 2007, 04:12:42 PM
Post by: LoD on March 09, 2007, 04:12:42 PM
Quote from: "spawnloser"Hymwen, the majority of people are slaves, so you're hardly doing anything that the majority is doing. The majority of the non-slaves are poor and hardly ever have spare coin lying around. They rarely see a temlar, much less interact with them. They don't work for a noble house or a great merchant house. Your character is exceptional by Zalanthan standards. Get used to the idea.
Being "exceptional" by Zalanthan standards shouldn't make exposure to magick any less rare or mysterious. That rarity and mystery should be defined by one's relation to entities or beings that deal with those entities. For example, a Lord Templar will probably have a high level of exposure to magicks while a Kadian Senior Agent stationed in Tuluk should have a fair chance at never being exposed.
Both roles are "exceptional" by your definition, but they don't inherently share the same potential for exposure to magick. Thus, when Senior Agent Kadius, and more importantly their player, does witness what they consider a high exposure to magick -- they provide feedback in threads like this by claiming magick isn't rare enough. You are claiming that every PC has an elevated chance of being exposed, and should simply accept whatever interaction they receive as "normal" or "standard".
They just don't agree, and neither do I. You know my reasons for why I feel the perception of magick in the gameworld is exaggerated. They may not be arguing the true problem, but the symptoms are much the same and to simply offer responses such as this which don't identify and bring the two ideas together just seems combative.
-LoD
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Hymwen on March 09, 2007, 04:34:02 PM
Post by: Hymwen on March 09, 2007, 04:34:02 PM
Quote from: "spawnloser"Hymwen, the majority of people are slaves, so you're hardly doing anything that the majority is doing. The majority of the non-slaves are poor and hardly ever have spare coin lying around. They rarely see a temlar, much less interact with them. They don't work for a noble house or a great merchant house. Your character is exceptional by Zalanthan standards. Get used to the idea.
I didn't say the majority, I said a large percentage. A large percentage could be 20-30%. A large percentage of Allanak's population are warriors by profession and clan affiliation. Are they exceptional? The entirety of this particular argument is pointless - I intentionally play characters who are very much the average Zalanthan. You're stating as a fact that the reason I'm seeing a lot of magickers is because I'm doing what I'm not supposed to do. Judge me more please...
Quote from: "spawnloser"Just because you've come across magick, by the way, that doesn't mean it's no longer mysterious to your character. Addressing the rare issue? You encounter magick 3 times in a characters life. How old is your character? A good average seems to be in the 20's, so that's once every 7 to 10 years, on average. Sounds pretty rare to me.
No, I'm used to seeing magick in some form or another on a weekly (IC) basis. My characters are usually played for a period of time that roughly equals 10% of their virtual lifespan, on average. Going by your strange logic, my 20 year old character would see magick or be indirectly involved something like... 3-400 times during their 20 year lifespan.
Experiencing magick doesn't necessarily mean having a guy throw a fireball in your face. If I'm walking down the street and suddenly see a wall of sand, I've witnessed magick. If I'm involved in a plot where NPCs or vNPCs people are being killed by magickers, my character is experiencing magick too. If I'm out mining and a guy sweeps past me with stoneskin, energy shield and fly on, I'm also seeing magick. If my PC's best friend gets blown out of a tavern by violent winds while I'm sitting next to them, I sure as hell am having a close encounter with magick. Most of my characters are having similar experiences too frequently for me to consider it rare in any way.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: moab on March 09, 2007, 04:36:14 PM
Post by: moab on March 09, 2007, 04:36:14 PM
Not to derail (can you derail a discussion that's gone on for 11 or 12 pages?) but Hymwen, I have to say it's nice to meet someone who likes average joe characters too (not that I haven't played the other frequently as well).
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Jherlen on March 09, 2007, 04:44:37 PM
Post by: Jherlen on March 09, 2007, 04:44:37 PM
OKAY. Can everyone please step back a moment?
If there is one thing evident about this thread it is that there is a problem here somewhere. A thread would not go on for 11 pages if everyone was happy with the number of mages and the level of magick in the game.
Telling the people who perceive a problem that there is really no problem with mages at all is not constructive to debate. If they didn't have a perception that something was wrong, they wouldn't be here. We can argue about the virtual world and virtual proportions of slaves and boring people and blah blah blah, but the issue central to the debate is: that some people think there are too many magickers in the game and too much is revolving around magick.
Maybe we could have some constructive debate about how to address this perception rather than just arguing if it exists. Of course the perception exists, otherwise people wouldn't be here. Some people seem to be arguing with others in this thread just for the sake or arguing, and others seem to be sticking their heads in the sand and denying there is an issue at all, and that doesn't help anyone.
If there is one thing evident about this thread it is that there is a problem here somewhere. A thread would not go on for 11 pages if everyone was happy with the number of mages and the level of magick in the game.
Telling the people who perceive a problem that there is really no problem with mages at all is not constructive to debate. If they didn't have a perception that something was wrong, they wouldn't be here. We can argue about the virtual world and virtual proportions of slaves and boring people and blah blah blah, but the issue central to the debate is: that some people think there are too many magickers in the game and too much is revolving around magick.
Maybe we could have some constructive debate about how to address this perception rather than just arguing if it exists. Of course the perception exists, otherwise people wouldn't be here. Some people seem to be arguing with others in this thread just for the sake or arguing, and others seem to be sticking their heads in the sand and denying there is an issue at all, and that doesn't help anyone.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Hymwen on March 09, 2007, 04:45:02 PM
Post by: Hymwen on March 09, 2007, 04:45:02 PM
Quote from: "Hymwen"No, I'm used to seeing magick in some form or another on a weekly (IC) basis.
That was actually an exaggaration, but it's easily once per RL week, and does not change my point or opinion.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: spawnloser on March 09, 2007, 06:34:03 PM
Post by: spawnloser on March 09, 2007, 06:34:03 PM
Okay, once per RL week. Let's go with that. That comes to roughly six times per IG year, right? Six times a year doesn't sound like much to me. I'd say that something I only do six times in a year is not common.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Melody on March 09, 2007, 07:11:18 PM
Post by: Melody on March 09, 2007, 07:11:18 PM
Quote from: "spawnloser"Okay, once per RL week. Let's go with that. That comes to roughly six times per IG year, right? Six times a year doesn't sound like much to me. I'd say that something I only do six times in a year is not common.
That's Hymwen. She's modest. Sometimes some of us have magical stalkers that chat you up every day for weeks oocly (Or every ic week). When one of them dies, you get a period of calm, for a week or two, and then some other magic or psi starts again. They are most unrelated, random (I hope). Maybe off peakers see more mages?
For some people, six times a year doesn't sound like much. But how much does it have to be before it is too much? This line of argument doesn't go anywhere for me. Perhaps you will kindly agree that the very existence of this thread might suggest something?
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: spawnloser on March 09, 2007, 07:26:02 PM
Post by: spawnloser on March 09, 2007, 07:26:02 PM
I just thought of something that may help. I think what causes this is that it's hard for it to feel like it's only six times a year when, for us, it is 52 times a year. It's common on an OOC level, in that regard, but not nearly so on an IC level.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Gimfalisette on March 09, 2007, 07:29:42 PM
Post by: Gimfalisette on March 09, 2007, 07:29:42 PM
If I was having six car accidents in RL per year, that would be far too much for me to consider them rare and mysterious. I'd feel like, "Oh crap, here we go again." They would feel tiresome and inevitable.
If I was visiting the dentist six times per RL year, I'd have to be in some kind of serious treatment for my teeth.
If one of my friends, family, or myself was shot and wounded by a gunman six times per year, I'd probably want to move to a different neighborhood. I would be weary and saddened by the violence, and it would feel like a regular part of my life.
None of these is really analogous to magick in the game, except that they are all unpleasant events which happen to ME in real life far less frequently than magick happens to my characters in game.
Something that happens six times per RL year is pretty damn common. Obviously we have different perceptions about this, but that's what a LOT of us perceive: Magick is common, it is not rare, it is not mysterious, and it's tiresome. We can't get away from it, even with our most mundane of mundane characters. And we want the option to get away from it, and have it BE rare and mysterious, like the game documentation says it's supposed to be. Continuing to try to convince us we're wrong in that desire is really just...silly.
If I was visiting the dentist six times per RL year, I'd have to be in some kind of serious treatment for my teeth.
If one of my friends, family, or myself was shot and wounded by a gunman six times per year, I'd probably want to move to a different neighborhood. I would be weary and saddened by the violence, and it would feel like a regular part of my life.
None of these is really analogous to magick in the game, except that they are all unpleasant events which happen to ME in real life far less frequently than magick happens to my characters in game.
Something that happens six times per RL year is pretty damn common. Obviously we have different perceptions about this, but that's what a LOT of us perceive: Magick is common, it is not rare, it is not mysterious, and it's tiresome. We can't get away from it, even with our most mundane of mundane characters. And we want the option to get away from it, and have it BE rare and mysterious, like the game documentation says it's supposed to be. Continuing to try to convince us we're wrong in that desire is really just...silly.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on March 09, 2007, 07:33:32 PM
Post by: jhunter on March 09, 2007, 07:33:32 PM
What fucking difference does it make if it's "illegal" magicks or "legal" magicks? None whatsoever, the topic at hand is encountering magick -period-. Whether legal or illegal is completely irrelevant.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on March 09, 2007, 07:40:16 PM
Post by: jhunter on March 09, 2007, 07:40:16 PM
QuoteIf they didn't have a perception that something was wrong, they wouldn't be here.Just because they perceive there is a problem does in no way prove that there is.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit on March 09, 2007, 07:41:45 PM
Post by: FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit on March 09, 2007, 07:41:45 PM
Here's the deal:
There are a lot of magickers running around right now. Probably too many.
But the game's about to end. People are special apping more. People who like magickers are trying to get their fill now, while they still can. People who've never played magickers are giving them a try. And who can blame them?
Of course, I doubt the surge in magickers we're seeing will magickally disappear once Arm2 comes out. With the restrictions of karma gone, we'll probably be seeing lots of magickers. People will be trying exotic, high-karma classes they never got a chance to test out before. Newbs who've been aching for the opportunity to play a magicker will jump at the chance. And people who just plain like magickers will keep doing what they always do.
What this means is that there re a lot of magickers now. And the trend will most likely continue for a fair bit into Arm2.
But eventually, the magick-hype will fade. People are being given a unique opportunity to play more magickers for the next six months or so; can we really be surprised that they're taking that opportunity?
Rather than freaking out about it and trying to re-design the new version of this game around what is most likely a temporary trend, I'd rather we all step back, take a deep breath, be a little understanding, and let people enjoy their magickers while they still can.
(Sorry if this was a little rambling- I had my wisdom teeth out, and I'm on painkillers)
There are a lot of magickers running around right now. Probably too many.
But the game's about to end. People are special apping more. People who like magickers are trying to get their fill now, while they still can. People who've never played magickers are giving them a try. And who can blame them?
Of course, I doubt the surge in magickers we're seeing will magickally disappear once Arm2 comes out. With the restrictions of karma gone, we'll probably be seeing lots of magickers. People will be trying exotic, high-karma classes they never got a chance to test out before. Newbs who've been aching for the opportunity to play a magicker will jump at the chance. And people who just plain like magickers will keep doing what they always do.
What this means is that there re a lot of magickers now. And the trend will most likely continue for a fair bit into Arm2.
But eventually, the magick-hype will fade. People are being given a unique opportunity to play more magickers for the next six months or so; can we really be surprised that they're taking that opportunity?
Rather than freaking out about it and trying to re-design the new version of this game around what is most likely a temporary trend, I'd rather we all step back, take a deep breath, be a little understanding, and let people enjoy their magickers while they still can.
(Sorry if this was a little rambling- I had my wisdom teeth out, and I'm on painkillers)
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on March 09, 2007, 07:43:49 PM
Post by: jhunter on March 09, 2007, 07:43:49 PM
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"If I was having six car accidents in RL per year, that would be far too much for me to consider them rare and mysterious. I'd feel like, "Oh crap, here we go again." They would feel tiresome and inevitable.
If I was visiting the dentist six times per RL year, I'd have to be in some kind of serious treatment for my teeth.
If one of my friends, family, or myself was shot and wounded by a gunman six times per year, I'd probably want to move to a different neighborhood. I would be weary and saddened by the violence, and it would feel like a regular part of my life.
None of these is really analogous to magick in the game, except that they are all unpleasant events which happen to ME in real life far less frequently than magick happens to my characters in game.
Something that happens six times per RL year is pretty damn common. Obviously we have different perceptions about this, but that's what a LOT of us perceive: Magick is common, it is not rare, it is not mysterious, and it's tiresome. We can't get away from it, even with our most mundane of mundane characters. And we want the option to get away from it, and have it BE rare and mysterious, like the game documentation says it's supposed to be. Continuing to try to convince us we're wrong in that desire is really just...silly.
Actually, let's make this a bit more meaningful. You're jumping from "seeing" or "encountering" to the equivalent of being attacked by magick.
Six times a year for "seeing" a car accident isn't much. I probably "see" more accidents in a year than just a mere six.
The problem is, what one person considers rare is not rare enough for another. It's just where I like it from my personal experiences. No more. No less.
Anyway, I'm totally sick of the magick-hating whining. I know for a -fact- that some of the people who have posted in the negative regarding the amount of magick, the power of magickers, etc -do- have their own personal issues with magickers and magick period. I know that a few of them recently lost pcs to magickers, I know that a few have lost cherished characters to magickal things in the past. I also know that some of them never spoke out this way until such happened. They can front it all they want but I know the truth as do a few others who are not bothering to waste as much time as I have with this thread.
I'm not flaming anyone or intending to flame anyone. But I'm not going to sit by and listen to the few who honestly are having an issue with experiencing too much magick be a stepping stone for those with personal agendas against magick/magickers to springboard from in the hopes of getting their way. At least be honest about shit people.
The staff is going to decide how it goes, some of us may like it and some of us may not but we've gotta deal with it or go play another fucking game if you don't like it that much, but seriously...stop the bitching and whining.
I'm out of this hypocritical mess.
Good day all.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Angela Christine on March 09, 2007, 08:45:34 PM
Post by: Angela Christine on March 09, 2007, 08:45:34 PM
Meh. Just change the documentation, so that instead of being "rare and mysterious" they are "somewhat uncommon and poorly understood."
Problem solved.
Problem solved.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LiquidShell on March 14, 2007, 02:31:15 AM
Post by: LiquidShell on March 14, 2007, 02:31:15 AM
This thread rocks.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Dalmeth on March 14, 2007, 11:24:43 AM
Post by: Dalmeth on March 14, 2007, 11:24:43 AM
I don't hate magickers. Most of my experiences with them have been good. It's the magick I hate.
As someone said earlier, it's too DIKU. When I'm facing a krathi, I'm not worried that the witch is going to turn the area around me into a blazing inferno. I don't think hunting down a Nilazi is going to end with me banished into the Eternal Abyss of Darkness and Despair. I know I'm going up against something with 200 damage per second and 50% damage reduction. Bleh.
It's boring! Where's the mystery? So many of the offensive and defensive spells are just what everyone else does except better. Most defensive spells are just armor except without any weight. Given how combat in this game is pure statistics, magickers will always win straight up because they have the numbers on their side. They don't even have to make much of a fuss about it, just fireball folks until they're dead. No summoning horrors from the darkest depths of wherever at all. No fun at all.
As someone said earlier, it's too DIKU. When I'm facing a krathi, I'm not worried that the witch is going to turn the area around me into a blazing inferno. I don't think hunting down a Nilazi is going to end with me banished into the Eternal Abyss of Darkness and Despair. I know I'm going up against something with 200 damage per second and 50% damage reduction. Bleh.
It's boring! Where's the mystery? So many of the offensive and defensive spells are just what everyone else does except better. Most defensive spells are just armor except without any weight. Given how combat in this game is pure statistics, magickers will always win straight up because they have the numbers on their side. They don't even have to make much of a fuss about it, just fireball folks until they're dead. No summoning horrors from the darkest depths of wherever at all. No fun at all.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Marauder Moe on March 14, 2007, 11:27:28 AM
Post by: Marauder Moe on March 14, 2007, 11:27:28 AM
More magickal misconceptions...
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit on March 14, 2007, 11:47:35 AM
Post by: FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit on March 14, 2007, 11:47:35 AM
QuoteIt's boring! Where's the mystery? So many of the offensive and defensive spells are just what everyone else does except better. Most defensive spells are just armor except without any weight. Given how combat in this game is pure statistics, magickers will always win straight up because they have the numbers on their side. They don't even have to make much of a fuss about it, just fireball folks until they're dead. No summoning horrors from the darkest depths of wherever at all. No fun at all.I disagree. The spells in Armageddon that I've seen have been remarkably unique and innovative. You rarely see the "fireball", "fireball level 2", "fireball level 3" crap you see in most other games. Obviously, I can't describe some of the more impressive (or even just wacky) spells I've seen, and while I can't say "you're wrong", I am going to have to respectfully disagree.
Halaster and the other Imms have done a great job with the spell lists, at least from an asethetic standpoint.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Dresan on March 16, 2007, 08:10:26 PM
Post by: Dresan on March 16, 2007, 08:10:26 PM
Magicks isn't limited by code, often only time and imagination. The code itself is pretty impressive aswell from what i've seen and definately not limited to 'fireball' or other 'basic' attacks.
I also can't say that your wrong, Dalmeth because that would be too IC however i too disagree with your assessment. :wink:
I also can't say that your wrong, Dalmeth because that would be too IC however i too disagree with your assessment. :wink:
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Mr.B on March 24, 2007, 08:19:07 PM
Post by: Mr.B on March 24, 2007, 08:19:07 PM
The problem with the current incarnation of magickers is that many of the cheesefuck magicker lovers have figured out exactly how to twink them out, to a science with exact figures of time spells need to be cast, exactly what they need to branch and so on, in addition to it being extremely easy and quick to powerup in comparison to mundanes. Couple that with armageddon closing down and a proliferation of magicker characters in game and you have an equation for why alot of players do not like the current magicker classes. But have no fear, for 2.Arm will probably depower mages from their current incarnation substantially so that it's more on par with mundanes as far as advancing in their leetness and what they can do before reaching supremacy levels of power.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Pale Horse on March 24, 2007, 09:48:54 PM
Post by: Pale Horse on March 24, 2007, 09:48:54 PM
Quote from: "Mr.B"...But have no fear, for 2.Arm will probably depower mages from their current incarnation substantially so that it's more on par with mundanes as far as advancing...
Doubt it.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Agent_137 on March 25, 2007, 02:13:46 AM
Post by: Agent_137 on March 25, 2007, 02:13:46 AM
Quote from: "Mr.B"The problem with the current incarnation of magickers is that many of the cheesefuck magicker lovers have figured out exactly how to twink them out, to a science with exact figures of time spells need to be cast, exactly what they need to branch and so on, in addition to it being extremely easy and quick to powerup in comparison to mundanes. Couple that with armageddon closing down and a proliferation of magicker characters in game and you have an equation for why alot of players do not like the current magicker classes. But have no fear, for 2.Arm will probably depower mages from their current incarnation substantially so that it's more on par with mundanes as far as advancing in their leetness and what they can do before reaching supremacy levels of power.
cry more.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Oasis on March 25, 2007, 03:36:14 AM
Post by: Oasis on March 25, 2007, 03:36:14 AM
Ah, the "cry more" last resort again. Not the first time you play that card, eh? Always handy when you can't accept people disagreeing with your stoic opinions, yet can't really argue why they're wrong. Such respect it garners.
I'm wondering now, by the look of this thread, which option will satisfy the most people: changing magick back to a point where it actually is rare, and isn't just the easy and fast way to insane power - or simply keeping it that way for the obviously numerous players who enjoy that style of play and seem incapable of accepting how anyone can speak against it.
Obviously if someone disagrees with you, the best riposte is to ignore those of their arguments that make sense, and twist the rest of their words around to make your version look more favorable. Luckily the posters who often do that tend to be disliked and disregarded.
Magick is like house rules. It doesn't match what's written on the game box, but we can always ignore the laws laid out by the game's creators and take matterrs into our own hands, doing things like we prefer it instead. After all, it doesn't affect anyone negatively, right?
I'm wondering now, by the look of this thread, which option will satisfy the most people: changing magick back to a point where it actually is rare, and isn't just the easy and fast way to insane power - or simply keeping it that way for the obviously numerous players who enjoy that style of play and seem incapable of accepting how anyone can speak against it.
Obviously if someone disagrees with you, the best riposte is to ignore those of their arguments that make sense, and twist the rest of their words around to make your version look more favorable. Luckily the posters who often do that tend to be disliked and disregarded.
Magick is like house rules. It doesn't match what's written on the game box, but we can always ignore the laws laid out by the game's creators and take matterrs into our own hands, doing things like we prefer it instead. After all, it doesn't affect anyone negatively, right?
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Malken on March 25, 2007, 11:27:52 AM
Post by: Malken on March 25, 2007, 11:27:52 AM
Quote from: "Oasis"
Magick is like house rules. It doesn't match what's written on the game box, but we can always ignore the laws laid out by the game's creators and take matterrs into our own hands, doing things like we prefer it instead. After all, it doesn't affect anyone negatively, right?
The problem I think is that the creators of the game keep telling us that there's no problem and it's all in our head, yet the players, except for a few, keep wondering why there's so many non-mundane characters allowed in the game.. So as long as the creators tell us that it's all in our head, posting over and over that there's a problem won't do much..
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: manonfire on March 25, 2007, 11:36:50 AM
Post by: manonfire on March 25, 2007, 11:36:50 AM
Quote from: "Oasis"Ah, the "cry more" last resort again. Not the first time you play that card, eh? Always handy when you can't accept people disagreeing with your stoic opinions, yet can't really argue why they're wrong. Such respect it garners.
I'm wondering now, by the look of this thread, which option will satisfy the most people: changing magick back to a point where it actually is rare, and isn't just the easy and fast way to insane power - or simply keeping it that way for the obviously numerous players who enjoy that style of play and seem incapable of accepting how anyone can speak against it.
Obviously if someone disagrees with you, the best riposte is to ignore those of their arguments that make sense, and twist the rest of their words around to make your version look more favorable. Luckily the posters who often do that tend to be disliked and disregarded.
Magick is like house rules. It doesn't match what's written on the game box, but we can always ignore the laws laid out by the game's creators and take matterrs into our own hands, doing things like we prefer it instead. After all, it doesn't affect anyone negatively, right?
Sarcasm is a pretty solid way to go, too.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Rindan on March 25, 2007, 11:44:28 AM
Post by: Rindan on March 25, 2007, 11:44:28 AM
Quote from: "Malken"The problem I think is that the creators of the game keep telling us that there's no problem and it's all in our head, yet the players, except for a few, keep wondering why there's so many non-mundane characters allowed in the game.. So as long as the creators tell us that it's all in our head, posting over and over that there's a problem won't do much..
I don't see this at all. In fact, wasn't there an appeal a little while ago for people to STOP making magikers over and over again? Unless I have missed it, I have not see anywhere in this thread a staff member saying "you are all wrong, there are not as many magikers as you think".
I think the biggest issue with the world being stuffed with magikers is that it makes it really hard to keep the same mindset. Seeing one magiker for the first time in your characters life is scary. Seeing three of the little fuckers in one god damn around Tuluk is silly.
I say this as a completely NOT rhetorical question, but what is a person to think when half of the people they run into in the wastes are magikers? This happened to me very recently, and it wasn't like I was sulking around dark dens of 3vil. I kept running into magikers either literally on the North road, or just off it in sight of the North road. After a while the awe and mystery wears off and your character can't go into shock because of the horrors he has seen. Instead, your character grumbles under his breath and tells his kank to hurry up and go faster.
This is the point where I am with my character. He has seen so many magikers in such a short time that it is stupid to play according to the documentation. It is more logical for him to suspect anyone who looks even a little out of place in the wastes of be a magiker because half of the time he will be right. Further, it is logical to avoid magikers like the plague, but to not get too terribly upset about it. You might as well treat magikers like a pack of Carru. They are something to be flee from, but after they are out of sight you go back to doing whatever it is you do and think nothing of it.
My concern really is not with 1.Arm. I'll chalk piles of magikers wandering the wastes along well used paths with obvious magikal effects to the end of the world. My real worry is that this same ridiculousnesses will be present in 2.Arm. Maybe the staff won't have karma in 2.Arm, but I REALLY hope that they start rejecting magiker applications on the grounds that there are too many active magikers.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Hymwen on March 25, 2007, 12:50:31 PM
Post by: Hymwen on March 25, 2007, 12:50:31 PM
The question of documentation and rarity aside, is it really healthy for the game to have so many magickers? This may be a misconception, but a bit over a year ago when I started playing, there weren't quite as many magickers. Not as few as I get the impression that there were way back in the days of olden glory, but I still remember it as being much less. And much more hunters, travelling merchants, tribal people who weren't the Tan Muark or renegade tribals who just lived in Allanak/Tuluk... much more diversity in roles as I saw it, where I suspect that now many of the players who liked to play the outdoorsy types have given up on making them mundane characters and instead opt to play magickers because it's so difficult to do it without being someone's bitch every few days if you can't cast spells yourself.
My current character interacts regularly with about 10 PCs. They all live in an area that isn't lawful, but definitely isn't what I would consider a safe haven for magickers (or anyone). 3 of those 10 are magickers, openly, casting in plain sight and making no attempt at hiding the fact, and I bet at least one or two more are secret non-mundanes in some form. And I'm not even surprised by that statistic because it isn't a first for me. It forces everyone in that area to adapt fully to these powers and leaves no chance for anyone to play anything that deviates from what the players of those non-mundanes have decided for them. That's a whole area of the game where you let yourself be ruled completely by imposing "exceptional characters", or don't play there.
My current character interacts regularly with about 10 PCs. They all live in an area that isn't lawful, but definitely isn't what I would consider a safe haven for magickers (or anyone). 3 of those 10 are magickers, openly, casting in plain sight and making no attempt at hiding the fact, and I bet at least one or two more are secret non-mundanes in some form. And I'm not even surprised by that statistic because it isn't a first for me. It forces everyone in that area to adapt fully to these powers and leaves no chance for anyone to play anything that deviates from what the players of those non-mundanes have decided for them. That's a whole area of the game where you let yourself be ruled completely by imposing "exceptional characters", or don't play there.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Lizzie on March 25, 2007, 01:32:51 PM
Post by: Lizzie on March 25, 2007, 01:32:51 PM
What if it isn't an issue? I mean, ok so there are more magicker PCs in the game than previously. It's the end of the world stuff. Everyone knows the game will be ending soon, so everyone who has magicker karma but hasn't tried it out before, is trying it now. So what, really? I mean, the game's going to end in 6 months, we already know this in advance, and maybe having more magickers than before will make a *perfect* explanation for why the world ends, as a kick-off for the history of Arm.2
Personally I'm loving all these magickers coming out of the woodworks. My first PC didn't know a magicker from a mekillot. My second character sees them all over the place, or at least she thinks she's seeing them (even without any proof at all - flame-haired? Gotta be a krathi. Doesn't wear a waterskin? Must be a vivaduan. Frizzy hair? Ha! Elkros, no doubt! - that's her perception, even if it isn't true.)
What's fun, for me, is when my PC assumes half a dozen people are magickers, and they turn out to be just average joes. Gives me a reason to RP being WRONG, or start rumors based on assumptions, or tell the boss that this or that guy needs to get shived when in fact he's just a humble law-abiding no-body. Or even more fun - when I assume that guy without a waterskin is a viv, and it turns out he's a mindbender assassin spy of House Jimbob.
I'm having SO much fun with the "idea" of "everyone's a magicker oh noez!" that I can't bring myself to be worried AT ALL about the notion that it might be true.
It's the end of the world as we know it - and I feel fine.
L. Stanson
Personally I'm loving all these magickers coming out of the woodworks. My first PC didn't know a magicker from a mekillot. My second character sees them all over the place, or at least she thinks she's seeing them (even without any proof at all - flame-haired? Gotta be a krathi. Doesn't wear a waterskin? Must be a vivaduan. Frizzy hair? Ha! Elkros, no doubt! - that's her perception, even if it isn't true.)
What's fun, for me, is when my PC assumes half a dozen people are magickers, and they turn out to be just average joes. Gives me a reason to RP being WRONG, or start rumors based on assumptions, or tell the boss that this or that guy needs to get shived when in fact he's just a humble law-abiding no-body. Or even more fun - when I assume that guy without a waterskin is a viv, and it turns out he's a mindbender assassin spy of House Jimbob.
I'm having SO much fun with the "idea" of "everyone's a magicker oh noez!" that I can't bring myself to be worried AT ALL about the notion that it might be true.
It's the end of the world as we know it - and I feel fine.
L. Stanson
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: flurry on March 25, 2007, 01:56:57 PM
Post by: flurry on March 25, 2007, 01:56:57 PM
I think some of the concern is overblown. With only half a dozen months to go with the current version of Armageddon, people naturally are going to want to try some things they haven't before.
I don't think there's a "solution" other than imposing tighter restrictions on what people can play and I don't think that would go over very well.
edit to add: I still think a better approach would be to find a way to make people want to play mundane roles. With more incentive to pick non-karma roles, there would be fewer magickers around without anyone feeling like their options are taken away.
I don't think there's a "solution" other than imposing tighter restrictions on what people can play and I don't think that would go over very well.
edit to add: I still think a better approach would be to find a way to make people want to play mundane roles. With more incentive to pick non-karma roles, there would be fewer magickers around without anyone feeling like their options are taken away.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: spawnloser on March 25, 2007, 02:14:55 PM
Post by: spawnloser on March 25, 2007, 02:14:55 PM
Rindan, Halaster actually, not long ago when people were bitching about the number of magickers, said that there aren't as many magickers as the-people-saying-that-there-were-too-many think. They said that if they notice someone making magicker after magicker and that that is a problem, they will ask the person to make something else.
Continuing to address the rest of your post, Rindan, as I said before, this is mostly a problem of perception. Your character has met a bunch of magickers in the waste. It took you two weeks to notice all these magickers, but in your character's life, that's 1/3 of the year or ,to put it in familiar Earth terms, 4 months the way you and I would tell it. It doesn't feel like that's much time to you...but it will feel like much more to someone that lives at seven times the speed that you do.
Of course, we can always go back to the 'end of the world' issue. All the players know that the world will irrevocably change and thus are trying to play something they haven't just to see what it's like. I doubt we'll see quite as much of this in the new game, though. We'll all know that we have plenty of time to play things, and for the first chunk of time, there will be no restrictions on who plays what. People will have plenty of options and we'll very likely see plenty of people wanting to set up their merchant dynasties and the like right off the bat too. Those sorts of roles are in low demand, seeing as how there's only a few months left, so how could you get as big as Kadius in that amount of time? You can't, so noone's trying any more. That will be available in our next version of the game.
Mr. B, Halaster also said that magickers are designed to be they way they are to MINIMIZE spam-casting by allowing the magickers to branch a few spells quickly to have some survivability, thus encouraging interaction. It's not being a 'cheesefuck,' as you so elegantly put it, to branch as designed. It is being a 'cheesefuck' to spam-cast without roleplay. Not all roleplay is emoting. Just because some people have played a magicker before and know what branches to what doesn't make them cheesefucks either, nor does trying to branch to a particular spell. People try to practice mundane skills if they think that it will branch to something useful too, and if they can realistically roleplay that desire to practice as well as the actual practice itself, there is nothing wrong with it, and the same goes for magickal or psionic skills.
I guess what I'm saying is that not all people that enjoy playing magickers are 'cheesefuck magicker lovers' all of whom have 'figured out exactly how to twink them out' and the rest.
Continuing to address the rest of your post, Rindan, as I said before, this is mostly a problem of perception. Your character has met a bunch of magickers in the waste. It took you two weeks to notice all these magickers, but in your character's life, that's 1/3 of the year or ,to put it in familiar Earth terms, 4 months the way you and I would tell it. It doesn't feel like that's much time to you...but it will feel like much more to someone that lives at seven times the speed that you do.
Of course, we can always go back to the 'end of the world' issue. All the players know that the world will irrevocably change and thus are trying to play something they haven't just to see what it's like. I doubt we'll see quite as much of this in the new game, though. We'll all know that we have plenty of time to play things, and for the first chunk of time, there will be no restrictions on who plays what. People will have plenty of options and we'll very likely see plenty of people wanting to set up their merchant dynasties and the like right off the bat too. Those sorts of roles are in low demand, seeing as how there's only a few months left, so how could you get as big as Kadius in that amount of time? You can't, so noone's trying any more. That will be available in our next version of the game.
Mr. B, Halaster also said that magickers are designed to be they way they are to MINIMIZE spam-casting by allowing the magickers to branch a few spells quickly to have some survivability, thus encouraging interaction. It's not being a 'cheesefuck,' as you so elegantly put it, to branch as designed. It is being a 'cheesefuck' to spam-cast without roleplay. Not all roleplay is emoting. Just because some people have played a magicker before and know what branches to what doesn't make them cheesefucks either, nor does trying to branch to a particular spell. People try to practice mundane skills if they think that it will branch to something useful too, and if they can realistically roleplay that desire to practice as well as the actual practice itself, there is nothing wrong with it, and the same goes for magickal or psionic skills.
I guess what I'm saying is that not all people that enjoy playing magickers are 'cheesefuck magicker lovers' all of whom have 'figured out exactly how to twink them out' and the rest.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Malken on March 25, 2007, 02:43:48 PM
Post by: Malken on March 25, 2007, 02:43:48 PM
Another problem is that if you actually manage to kill a magicker, unless it was one of the few special-app'ed (And often, people get to keep their special-app'ed race option) then that person who played a magicker and just died will just go ahead and make another magicker and often will play it in exactly the same spot because they got used to that place and they now know better how to play that mage..
And yes, Rindan, like Spawnloser wrote, I was referring to Halaster's post and another admin that I can't recall who are telling us that out of X number of characters currently online, there's maybe only 10% of them that are non-mundane. I don't want to say that they are lying at all, but this weekend only, it certainly doesn't seem that way to me at all. Or the past week... Or pretty much since I've started playing my current character. And no, I don't play him or her often in Allanak at all. Or a magicker-friendly tribe.
And yes, Rindan, like Spawnloser wrote, I was referring to Halaster's post and another admin that I can't recall who are telling us that out of X number of characters currently online, there's maybe only 10% of them that are non-mundane. I don't want to say that they are lying at all, but this weekend only, it certainly doesn't seem that way to me at all. Or the past week... Or pretty much since I've started playing my current character. And no, I don't play him or her often in Allanak at all. Or a magicker-friendly tribe.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Hymwen on March 25, 2007, 04:20:03 PM
Post by: Hymwen on March 25, 2007, 04:20:03 PM
Lizzie, I would feel better if I knew that the next version of the game will bring things back to what many of us consider an acceptable balance, but I don't know. Apparently the staff considers the power that magickers hold intended and I don't disagree with that in itself, but coupled with the ease of progress and the high numbers, it creates a game environment that obviously doesn't reflect the documentation or what many players want. Will people be less inclined to play those powerful magickers in a new game where they don't know everything about the wilderness, where that oasis is located, what types of food they can get and where? Unless mundanes become somehow less disadvantaged in almost every power- and survival-related aspect, why would the players who value personal power over the state of the game play them? It's clear to me that this is the issue we currently deal with.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Malken on March 25, 2007, 04:50:49 PM
Post by: Malken on March 25, 2007, 04:50:49 PM
And Lizzie, please also remember that we've been saying that for months, now, but until the announcement of the new game was announced, people were just telling us that it was all in our head, but now that it is quite obvious that there's a huge number of magickers around all the time, the new catchphrase to shut us up is to say that people are just trying new classes and are playing more magickers before the game will end..
Well, the problem is that the announcement was nearly three months ago, and that the game won't end for at LEAST six months.. So does that mean that we will have been playing for nearly a whole year in a high fantasy, high magick mud? That for a whole year it's 'okay' if we have tons of magickers and non-mundane classes running around because the game will be ending 'eventually'?
Well, the problem is that the announcement was nearly three months ago, and that the game won't end for at LEAST six months.. So does that mean that we will have been playing for nearly a whole year in a high fantasy, high magick mud? That for a whole year it's 'okay' if we have tons of magickers and non-mundane classes running around because the game will be ending 'eventually'?
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Lizzie on March 25, 2007, 05:26:29 PM
Post by: Lizzie on March 25, 2007, 05:26:29 PM
Considering the game's been around in its current "version" for around 10 years as I understand it (post hack-n-slash version before Sanvean took over), then yeah I think it really is reasonable to expect an influx of magickers for around a year before Arm.2 is released. That's 1/10'the the history of the game in its current incarnation.
I've read the docs, and the forums, extensively before I started playing. I've read the concerns about magickers, and many of the concerns were dramatic and over-exaggerated intentionally to prove points.
I agree there are more magickers than previously, like most people have stated. That means, to me, that previously, there weren't more magickers than there are now. And that means, to me, that the "problem" wasn't nearly the problem people perceived it was, previously, and the current "problem" can easily be chalked up to the fact that people simply want to try out things they haven't tried out for, but have karma for, before the game ends.
I also think that the staff is probably allowing such an influx, because it will make a really awesome "ending" to the world. Maybe they -want- magicks to be the fad of the day specifically because they want a rip-roaring earth-shattering krathi/drov/nilaz/elkros/vivadu/rukkian blowup of the world, in portions apocalyptic, so that no one can claim they were descended of Lord Jimbob or Jojo the Akei or whoever.
I don't know, and I don't want to speculate, because I don't want to be disappinted or let down if I put all my hopes in such a big huge deal only to find out the world ends because some guy who found the motherload of flash-powder chose the wrong moment to light up his spice pipe.
I've read the docs, and the forums, extensively before I started playing. I've read the concerns about magickers, and many of the concerns were dramatic and over-exaggerated intentionally to prove points.
I agree there are more magickers than previously, like most people have stated. That means, to me, that previously, there weren't more magickers than there are now. And that means, to me, that the "problem" wasn't nearly the problem people perceived it was, previously, and the current "problem" can easily be chalked up to the fact that people simply want to try out things they haven't tried out for, but have karma for, before the game ends.
I also think that the staff is probably allowing such an influx, because it will make a really awesome "ending" to the world. Maybe they -want- magicks to be the fad of the day specifically because they want a rip-roaring earth-shattering krathi/drov/nilaz/elkros/vivadu/rukkian blowup of the world, in portions apocalyptic, so that no one can claim they were descended of Lord Jimbob or Jojo the Akei or whoever.
I don't know, and I don't want to speculate, because I don't want to be disappinted or let down if I put all my hopes in such a big huge deal only to find out the world ends because some guy who found the motherload of flash-powder chose the wrong moment to light up his spice pipe.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Marauder Moe on March 25, 2007, 05:36:55 PM
Post by: Marauder Moe on March 25, 2007, 05:36:55 PM
Well truly, only the staff know for sure if the percentage of magickers has increased over the years. I myself am not sure. From what I've seen in Allanak, it comes and goes in phases just as normal. Sometimes there's a dozen active gemmed players, sometimes just two or three. I can't really speak for other parts of the world because I never played them for long periods.
It's possible that the playerbase has a higher proportion of seasoned veteran (karma) players now than it did a few years ago, which might account for any increase.
As I've said, though, I prefer IG solutions to any artificial magicker-quota or the like. I'd rather there be IC difficulties that discourage people from playing magickers in the new game, rather than simply not being allowed.
It's possible that the playerbase has a higher proportion of seasoned veteran (karma) players now than it did a few years ago, which might account for any increase.
As I've said, though, I prefer IG solutions to any artificial magicker-quota or the like. I'd rather there be IC difficulties that discourage people from playing magickers in the new game, rather than simply not being allowed.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Jherlen on March 25, 2007, 07:49:55 PM
Post by: Jherlen on March 25, 2007, 07:49:55 PM
Worth noting that we weren't in the "game is ending" phase when those statistics about the number of magickers were gathered.
I'd bet they're higher now than before, but still probably not above 40%.
I'd bet they're higher now than before, but still probably not above 40%.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Rindan on March 25, 2007, 08:03:45 PM
Post by: Rindan on March 25, 2007, 08:03:45 PM
I make this one appeal to people. If you are playing a magiker, PLEASE make an effort to hide yourself. Running down the middle of the North road with obvious magikal effects is flagrantly stupid. Yes, you might not see a PC, but VNPCs also move down that road. If you are a magiker with even an ounce of brains, you will stay the hell away from major routs of travel. Further, casting a few rooms away from any city is also extremely dumb. Soldiers patrol around these cities and people are always moving in and out of them.
Just use an ounce of common sense. True, the PC population is far too small to conjure up a mob, and the risk of ranger/assassins from the cities coming after you in the wilderness is small because these units don't exist as PCs and the staff is reluctant to have imm controlled NPCs hunt people down, but you SHOULD be worried about these things. This goes double and triple around Tuluk where you have half a million people who got into a frenzied mob when they hear about magikers.
It would just be nice if my character could make it from the span to Tuluk without running into multiple magikers.
Just use an ounce of common sense. True, the PC population is far too small to conjure up a mob, and the risk of ranger/assassins from the cities coming after you in the wilderness is small because these units don't exist as PCs and the staff is reluctant to have imm controlled NPCs hunt people down, but you SHOULD be worried about these things. This goes double and triple around Tuluk where you have half a million people who got into a frenzied mob when they hear about magikers.
It would just be nice if my character could make it from the span to Tuluk without running into multiple magikers.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Dresan on March 25, 2007, 08:56:55 PM
Post by: Dresan on March 25, 2007, 08:56:55 PM
Quote from: "Rindan"I make this one appeal to people. ....
It would just be nice if my character could make it from the span to Tuluk without running into multiple magikers.
So true....
However i honestly can't blame people for wanting to play character where they don't have to spend RL months of repetitive training only to risk instant death the moment they try to do anything interesting concerning their profession. Is it any wonder it is so insanely hard to find a -skilled- assassin? (of any guild).Anyways this is getting to close to derailment but would make an excellent new thread.
I think flurry is right though making mundanes more appealing to play is a solution or at least putting Magicker classes on par (training wise) with mundanes. I've seen two magickers attack someone in the Sanctuary in Tuluk, however i've never seen an attempt at an assassination anywhere in the city. The attempts i've heard about usually end grimly for the person attempting it.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: bloodfromstone on March 25, 2007, 09:25:56 PM
Post by: bloodfromstone on March 25, 2007, 09:25:56 PM
QuoteMr. B, Halaster also said that magickers are designed to be they way they are to MINIMIZE spam-casting by allowing the magickers to branch a few spells quickly to have some survivability, thus encouraging interaction.
I never understood why magicker interaction is considered more important than mundane interaction. It's not like mundanes don't have to spend literal days sparring, sneaking, stealing, shooting, etc. in order to get to be survivable.
And, the truth of the matter is that some (if not most, I hate to generalize) magicker DON'T use that as a venue for increased interaction. Personally, I'd rather see less encouragement to play magickers to try to balance the population to the docs.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: spawnloser on March 26, 2007, 05:00:03 PM
Post by: spawnloser on March 26, 2007, 05:00:03 PM
It's not more important, bloodfromstone, but mundanes practice their skills with each other mundanes...magickers do not practice with anyone but themselves. They can't practice their skills in town, unlike the thieves and fighters of the world, nor the merchants which practically HAVE to practice some of their skills with other people, even if they're NPC people.
The people that still don't interact, however, is an issue that the staff can solve by restricting those that do not do so in favor of spam-branching from continuing to do so.
The people that still don't interact, however, is an issue that the staff can solve by restricting those that do not do so in favor of spam-branching from continuing to do so.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Agent_137 on March 26, 2007, 05:06:11 PM
Post by: Agent_137 on March 26, 2007, 05:06:11 PM
already a thread on this subject:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18361
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18361
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: spawnloser on March 26, 2007, 06:54:26 PM
Post by: spawnloser on March 26, 2007, 06:54:26 PM
...a locked one, Agent. We can't continue discussion there. Here, though, we've actually discussed some things that were not discussed on that thread. I'm content. How about you?
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Agent_137 on March 27, 2007, 12:47:28 AM
Post by: Agent_137 on March 27, 2007, 12:47:28 AM
i know it was locked. i was trying to be subtle.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Dan on March 30, 2007, 02:16:17 PM
Post by: Dan on March 30, 2007, 02:16:17 PM
Im personally tired of people saying it doesn't take long for magickers to get powerful, that it can be done in a short amount of time.
It took me two years to get into a position where I felt my fire-elementalist was powerful. Two freaking real life years, and we are talking about the ones supposed to be war-mages.
Seriously, it isn't -that- easy to get powerful... you just have to know how to survive a really long time.
It took me two years to get into a position where I felt my fire-elementalist was powerful. Two freaking real life years, and we are talking about the ones supposed to be war-mages.
Seriously, it isn't -that- easy to get powerful... you just have to know how to survive a really long time.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LoD on March 30, 2007, 02:26:39 PM
Post by: LoD on March 30, 2007, 02:26:39 PM
Quote from: "Dan"Im personally tired of people saying it doesn't take long for magickers to get powerful, that it can be done in a short amount of time.
It took me two years to get into a position where I felt my fire-elementalist was powerful. Two freaking real life years, and we are talking about the ones supposed to be war-mages.
Seriously, it isn't -that- easy to get powerful... you just have to know how to survive a really long time.
The problem is that some people playing magickers have brought their magicker into a position where they feel powerful in under 10 playing days. When addressing a possible problem, you have to look at both ends of the spectrum. Your fire elementalist may have taken 2 years to become powerful, but someone's elkran may have taken only 2 RL months to become powerful enough to put a hurt on nearly any single mundane they encountered.
Simply because you haven't experienced it doesn't make it impossible. So, while I appreciate that you probably follow a path more closely aligned with how magickers should progress, there are many that advance much more quickly. It is generally those magickers to whom people are referring when they complain about the process being too easy.
-LoD
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Tisiphone on March 30, 2007, 02:38:02 PM
Post by: Tisiphone on March 30, 2007, 02:38:02 PM
Shouldn't this be more "I hate twinks" rather than "I hate magickers"?
If the twinks went around playing half-giants, we'd have the same complaints. They're supposed to be rare, and 'tisn't fair at all when a 0 day half-giant can pick up a bench and have a decent chance at beating down a 20 or 40 day warrior.
If the twinks went around playing half-giants, we'd have the same complaints. They're supposed to be rare, and 'tisn't fair at all when a 0 day half-giant can pick up a bench and have a decent chance at beating down a 20 or 40 day warrior.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Fiona Deathspike on March 30, 2007, 03:30:34 PM
Post by: Fiona Deathspike on March 30, 2007, 03:30:34 PM
I hate when a magicker is surprised that my character is scared to death of him or her. Especially when meeting away from the city or in another uncontrolled situation.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Doppelganger on March 30, 2007, 03:35:42 PM
Post by: Doppelganger on March 30, 2007, 03:35:42 PM
Quote from: "Tisiphone"Shouldn't this be more "I hate twinks" rather than "I hate magickers"?
If the twinks went around playing half-giants, we'd have the same complaints. They're supposed to be rare, and 'tisn't fair at all when a 0 day half-giant can pick up a bench and have a decent chance at beating down a 20 or 40 day warrior.
So far, staff says that whatever happens with magickers is 100% completely and purely intentional, so I see no reason to rename this thread.
In theory though, I think that amount of twinkery is proportional to the room left for abuse. If half-giants were as powerful as magickers, we'd have the same complaints for certain. But it didn't really happen because downsides of being a HG are reflected by the code, namely by their low agility and wisdom, while magicker's weakneses are virtual and can be ignored.
While there is always a chance that HG will chop veteran warrior in half with a single blow, it is safe to say that more often then not veteran will be able to hold long enough to beat HG with a sparring needle before that lucky blow comes.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Marauder Moe on March 30, 2007, 03:44:18 PM
Post by: Marauder Moe on March 30, 2007, 03:44:18 PM
Which of the magickers' virtual weaknesses can be ignored? All the clans that won't hire you? The friends that turn you in when they find out? The dull black gem? The Faithful that comes to hunt your ass down?
*boggle*
*boggle*
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Doppelganger on March 30, 2007, 04:05:01 PM
Post by: Doppelganger on March 30, 2007, 04:05:01 PM
If they needed mundane clans and mundane friends for anything worthwhile, it could be their weakness, but they don't need them by design.
As for the Faithful coming, I am all thrilled, but at least rogue magickers do not need to worry about southern Templars who randomly trample more characters then your average Faithful sees in his lifetime.
As for the Faithful coming, I am all thrilled, but at least rogue magickers do not need to worry about southern Templars who randomly trample more characters then your average Faithful sees in his lifetime.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Dan on March 30, 2007, 05:26:32 PM
Post by: Dan on March 30, 2007, 05:26:32 PM
Not to mention you cannot cast with anything in your hands, so if you are bashed before you finish the spell that might save you, well, you are pretty much dead against any soldier worth his salt.
Magickers don't really have too many virtual weaknesses, they are there and very real.
Someone already stated that magickers dont go looking for fights until they are powerful, well, most of them do not. The ones that do probably never let loose a spell before they die. The smart ones however are prepared, and any 'mundane' going against them is fucking stupid in the first place for going one-on-one against a magicker. So basically if your character is going around pissing off people that can kill you that easily, well then mayby your character just plain deserves to die.
Magickers don't really have too many virtual weaknesses, they are there and very real.
Someone already stated that magickers dont go looking for fights until they are powerful, well, most of them do not. The ones that do probably never let loose a spell before they die. The smart ones however are prepared, and any 'mundane' going against them is fucking stupid in the first place for going one-on-one against a magicker. So basically if your character is going around pissing off people that can kill you that easily, well then mayby your character just plain deserves to die.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LoD on March 30, 2007, 05:57:57 PM
Post by: LoD on March 30, 2007, 05:57:57 PM
Quote from: "Dan"Not to mention you cannot cast with anything in your hands...
No? I wouldn't be so sure.
The point Doppleganger was making is that all of the karma classes are governed by a system of checks and balances. Half-giants are strong, but notoriously stupid, kind, and curious. Muls are strong and smart, but 99% of them are born into captivity and are easily recognizeable at a distance for what they are. Desert elves are hardy and agile, but they are limited by a strict cultural code of conduct and a sense of tribal belonging.
Magickers are supposed to be policed by the environment. Sorcerers are supposed to be immediately hated/hunted by everyone that notices them, but what should be the most prominent threats are usually represented by virtual entities (i.e. tribes, sorcerer-kings, other highly magickal beings) or NPC's. Elementalists are supposed to be hated/hunted, but several players know how to avoid detection by their fellow players; renting aparments, casting sporadically, and being patient as their magicker reaches a level of proficiency which allows them to interact with the playerbase at a stage capable of handling themselves.
The "checks and balances" for magickers are largely virtual when you actually consider what forces in the world are keeping them in check. Players -might- happen upon them if they are careless or sloppy, but they were given more "teeth" now, and several magickers are capable of holding their own long enough to flee. Magickers that are but a few playing days old have the potential to branch spells that are capable of not only holding their own, but swiftly overcoming mundane threats.
No other class/guild in the game has the ability to take a sufficient supply of food/water, retreat to a remote portion of the gameworld, and become as powerful as either an elementalist or sorcerer. In fact, most would consider it "cheesy" or "twinkish" if the other classes did the exact same thing. That's what's unfortunate about the system in my mind.
Things I would like to see change with magickers:
1. Initial defensive abilities increased.
2. Initial and early offensive abilities decreased.
3. Provided more outlets for non-violent social interaction with mundanes.
4. Rate of learning decreased.
5. Total number of magick/psionic PC's in game slightly decreased.
6. Magickal combat, in general, slowed down.
Who knows what will be the outcome in the new game, but those things would probably help to make magick a more rare and mysterious part of the gameworld again, both because of the slow skill progression, and the shift in culture where mundane encounters with magickers are no longer mandated as fearful, violent, and often lethal affairs.
-LoD
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Doppelganger on March 30, 2007, 05:59:08 PM
Post by: Doppelganger on March 30, 2007, 05:59:08 PM
Quote from: "Dan"if you are bashed before you finish the spell that might save you, well, you are pretty much dead
.
.
.
The smart ones however are prepared, and any 'mundane' going against them is fucking stupid in the first place for going one-on-one against a magicker
There isn't any contradiction here, not at all.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Larrath on March 30, 2007, 06:26:43 PM
Post by: Larrath on March 30, 2007, 06:26:43 PM
Quote from: "Doppelganger"It's not a contradiction at all.Quote from: "Dan"if you are bashed before you finish the spell that might save you, well, you are pretty much dead
.
.
.
The smart ones however are prepared, and any 'mundane' going against them is fucking stupid in the first place for going one-on-one against a magicker
There isn't any contradiction here, not at all.
First of all, magickers are much more vulnerable than most people realize - even the powerful ones. The thing is that while magickers will take the time and effort to plan and prepare for their encounters, most people attacking them will just run in and kill. This is why they're blasted away - and even then not always.
If a mundane character prepares properly before they go out to hunt a magicker, they stand a *very* good chance of winning provided they do just a slight bit of research; checking what that magicker's particular strengths and weaknesses are, for instance.
Secondly, going prepared against a magicker usually also means not going on your own. One mundane against a magicker is a battle that will end very quickly, one way or the other. Two mundanes against one magicker is a battle that almost always ends with the magicker dying.
Plan and research. If you use a bit of strategy, it's far from impossible to kill even the most powerful magickers. If the magicker you're going up against is capable of landing crushing blows, use ranged weapons. If they have a powerful defense, find a way around it. If they're stealthy, out-maneuver them and find their hiding place.
A 5+ karma character with over 25 days played isn't supposed to be killed with one bash and four good hits, sorry. You're just going to have to work harder, just like the magickers themselves do in order to keep alive. Magickers that don't know how to be careful tend to die very quickly.
And finally, to add to the list of 'virtual' problems magickers have to deal with:
1 - generally being unable to live in a safe city.
2 - other magickers.
3 - finding a safe shelter, especially early on.
4 - getting food and water.
5 - getting lost in sandstorms.
6 - a few specific NPCs.
7 - gemmed elementalists.
8 - twinky guild-sniffers.
9 - extreme lack of interaction; try that one for three RL months.
You'd be surprised just how difficult it is to "make a magicker and sit in a cave until you're super-powerful". Twinks will be twinks and some people don't mind idling in a cave with a bot (or whatever) to practice their spells, but generally speaking it's not nearly as easy as people think.
I'd imagine that at least two thirds of all magickers die before they can attain any sort of power or significance. That's a lot.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Twilight on March 30, 2007, 06:35:44 PM
Post by: Twilight on March 30, 2007, 06:35:44 PM
Perhaps we have different values for power and significance, because I would say 90%.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit on March 30, 2007, 07:06:31 PM
Post by: FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit on March 30, 2007, 07:06:31 PM
Yeah... I really have to question who these uber-three-day-old-magickers are. I've played a lot of magickers, most of them living to five days or more, and I've never been 'uber'. Heck, most weren't even able to defend themselves, and died as soon as they met another aggressive PC.
So where are all these super-strong, super 'young' magickers? 'Cause I've never met one. And I've certainly never been one.
I smell a straw man.
So where are all these super-strong, super 'young' magickers? 'Cause I've never met one. And I've certainly never been one.
I smell a straw man.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Tisiphone on March 30, 2007, 07:14:59 PM
Post by: Tisiphone on March 30, 2007, 07:14:59 PM
I can absolutely guarantee that, even assuming 12 hour a day spam-casting, there is at least one type of 10 day magicker out there who couldn't win a fight with a pick-pocket.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Doppelganger on March 30, 2007, 07:48:02 PM
Post by: Doppelganger on March 30, 2007, 07:48:02 PM
I didn't say magickers are invincible, Larrath. There are always chances and possibilities, but my original point was that those chances against average magicker are much lower then chances against average half-giant. All these difficulties you describe exist, but I honestly believe that advantages they gain over mundanes cover those difficulties with overkill. And that is the reason why magickers are so popular now and why there are so many complaints about them. And that is why magick documentation seems to be written for VNPCs alone and that is why I'd like staff to adapt the rest of the world to changed magicker PCs, instead of discussing unicode characters.
I remember a year ago Cenghiz said that his magickers were forced to kill about 30 attacking warriors and never died themselves. I didn't count for him, but I see how it is possible. Smart ganging you describe is possible too, but I doubt that someone can honestly say that his warriors have positive balance in fighting magickers.
Seriously, PvP looks like very odd example of magicker's weakness.
As for the list of problems, those are not exclusive for any class in particular, they are results of the way of life chosen for the character. It depends on what we compare, rinthi magickers to mundane rats, gemmers to tavern-idlers, magick raiders to mundane raiders. Within these groups of interests problems will be roughly the same, but magickers are able to deal with them more effectively.
I remember a year ago Cenghiz said that his magickers were forced to kill about 30 attacking warriors and never died themselves. I didn't count for him, but I see how it is possible. Smart ganging you describe is possible too, but I doubt that someone can honestly say that his warriors have positive balance in fighting magickers.
Seriously, PvP looks like very odd example of magicker's weakness.
As for the list of problems, those are not exclusive for any class in particular, they are results of the way of life chosen for the character. It depends on what we compare, rinthi magickers to mundane rats, gemmers to tavern-idlers, magick raiders to mundane raiders. Within these groups of interests problems will be roughly the same, but magickers are able to deal with them more effectively.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: manonfire on March 30, 2007, 07:51:58 PM
Post by: manonfire on March 30, 2007, 07:51:58 PM
Quote from: "Doppelganger"I doubt that someone can honestly say that his warriors have positive balance in fighting magickers.
I'll say it.
Warriors have positive balance in fighting magickers.
Want to know how? It's just one word.
Subdue.
/thread
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Synthesis on March 30, 2007, 08:02:50 PM
Post by: Synthesis on March 30, 2007, 08:02:50 PM
I wouldn't bet my PC's life on his ability to subdue a magicker, if I were you. That kind of clueless assertion is what gets a lot of newbies killed, thinking that they can get the upper hand.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: manonfire on March 30, 2007, 08:15:08 PM
Post by: manonfire on March 30, 2007, 08:15:08 PM
If you've got it in your head that you want to kill X magicker, then you're already betting your character's life.
Beyond getting the jump on a magicker, having a respectable subdue skill is a hell of thing to have in your arsenal.
Beyond getting the jump on a magicker, having a respectable subdue skill is a hell of thing to have in your arsenal.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on March 31, 2007, 10:07:53 AM
Post by: jhunter on March 31, 2007, 10:07:53 AM
QuoteThere are always chances and possibilities, but my original point was that those chances against average magicker are much lower then chances against average half-giant.
Bullshit.
I have seen more "powerful" people killed by a newbie half-giant than anything else. A half-giant right out of the box is far more deadly than any mage out of the box. Another thing I'd like to point out, some of the mages are incapable of killing another pc without help for several days of playing time. They simply have -zero- offensive capability.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on March 31, 2007, 10:09:15 AM
Post by: jhunter on March 31, 2007, 10:09:15 AM
Quote from: "FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit"Yeah... I really have to question who these uber-three-day-old-magickers are. I've played a lot of magickers, most of them living to five days or more, and I've never been 'uber'. Heck, most weren't even able to defend themselves, and died as soon as they met another aggressive PC.
So where are all these super-strong, super 'young' magickers? 'Cause I've never met one. And I've certainly never been one.
I smell a straw man.
*touches his finger to his nose*
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Tisiphone on March 31, 2007, 10:50:45 AM
Post by: Tisiphone on March 31, 2007, 10:50:45 AM
Quote from: "manonfire"If you've got it in your head that you want to kill X magicker, then you're already betting your character's life.
Beyond getting the jump on a magicker, having a respectable subdue skill is a hell of thing to have in your arsenal.
If you've got it in your head that you want to kill X PC, then you're already betting your character's life.
Beyond getting the jump on a PC, having a respectable subdue skill is a hell of a thing to have in your arsenal.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Doppelganger on March 31, 2007, 11:14:57 AM
Post by: Doppelganger on March 31, 2007, 11:14:57 AM
Quote from: "jhunter"Bullshit.
I have seen more "powerful" people killed by a newbie half-giant than anything else. A half-giant right out of the box is far more deadly than any mage out of the box. Another thing I'd like to point out, some of the mages are incapable of killing another pc without help for several days of playing time. They simply have -zero- offensive capability.
Let's cut it down to simple "yes" or "no" question. Is mundane Half-Giant more appealing for powerseeker then human Krathi or Rukkian?
I will trust your word, and if the answer is "yes", I will never say a word on magickers again. Not a big sacrifice on my part, since everything is said already, so go ahead and shut me up.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Agent_137 on March 31, 2007, 03:39:10 PM
Post by: Agent_137 on March 31, 2007, 03:39:10 PM
dan, i killed this thread for FOUR days before you brought it back.
way to fucking go.
way to fucking go.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Nile on March 31, 2007, 05:55:50 PM
Post by: Nile on March 31, 2007, 05:55:50 PM
We need a raider group at the start of arm 2. To wipe out all the newbie magickers....Nod self.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Dan on March 31, 2007, 09:47:27 PM
Post by: Dan on March 31, 2007, 09:47:27 PM
Well, it already seems dead again since people have begun comparing magickers to half-giants and are organizing magicker-hunting raider grounds.
I wash my hands of it now.
I wash my hands of it now.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on April 01, 2007, 03:57:47 AM
Post by: jhunter on April 01, 2007, 03:57:47 AM
Quote from: "Doppelganger"Quote from: "jhunter"Bullshit.
I have seen more "powerful" people killed by a newbie half-giant than anything else. A half-giant right out of the box is far more deadly than any mage out of the box. Another thing I'd like to point out, some of the mages are incapable of killing another pc without help for several days of playing time. They simply have -zero- offensive capability.
Let's cut it down to simple "yes" or "no" question. Is mundane Half-Giant more appealing for powerseeker then human Krathi or Rukkian?
I will trust your word, and if the answer is "yes", I will never say a word on magickers again. Not a big sacrifice on my part, since everything is said already, so go ahead and shut me up.
If I were a powerseeker, yes. If I were the type of person to go get instant gratification, to go out and kill someone who had just killed my pc (a stretch into OOC twinkyland) you'd better believe I'd go app a hg warrior, choose str as my primary stat and bust a subdue/kill on their ass.
Disclaimer: I'm not saying that I would do such a thing nor am I condoning doing such a thing.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Doppelganger on April 01, 2007, 09:08:51 AM
Post by: Doppelganger on April 01, 2007, 09:08:51 AM
Quote from: "jhunter"If I were the type of person to go get instant gratification
What is this "if" condition about? If you start your reply with "bullshit", I'd expect you to be brave and firm when stating your own opinion. Unless, of course, the "bullshit" word was a quick preview to what you are going to say next.
What about long term gratification, or is ability to pursue long term goals reserved for stellar roleplayers alone? I've asked you about powerseekers, but I didn't expect you to enlighten me about mindset of imbecilles who are mentally too weak to keep their characters alive and thus are concerned about first few days balance.
As much as I surprised with your outlook on what power is, I have to trust your opinion as promised. Though I still believe that you should have started your last post with something like
Quote from: "jhunter"If I were an idiot, yes.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Tisiphone on April 01, 2007, 10:21:03 AM
Post by: Tisiphone on April 01, 2007, 10:21:03 AM
mmm, I lovr it when the forums start substituting flames for well-thought, rational replies. Remind me to get the marshmallows.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Oasis on April 01, 2007, 11:17:32 AM
Post by: Oasis on April 01, 2007, 11:17:32 AM
I know of a magicker who branched their first two spells at 11 hours, and two again at 19 hours played. That was through active training, but not full spam-casting. Sizeable power in less than 5 days is very possible if you decide to make it your goal.
I also happen to know that the magicker in question, during their first 12 hours in the wilderness, met no less than 5 or 6 different magickers, two of whom attacked unprovoked and without a word. It could be a fluke, but judging by the reports of many players, it's not far from what is to be expected lately.
As for the half-giant versus magicker, the only thing the giant has is immense offense, something that most magickers also gain. The giant doesn't learn how to completely disappear at the flick of a hand, how to create food and water, defend themselves almost completely from many types of damage, and all those other nice things that magickers can do depending on their element. And if the giant wants to train his skills, it happens through the risk of death with every challenging fight he enters, and at a progress many times slower than any magicker. He also has the tedious chore of roleplaying a retard.
Then there's the illusion of magickers being in the hands of responsible players. I wish it was so, but I know of cases where magicker special applications were approved to players who had been here for as little as six months. One particular player whose name shall not be mentioned had a 3 karma application approved despite the fact that I had submitted complaints about the player's blatant twinking and horrible roleplay more than once, and I doubt I'm the only one who did. Some of the worst roleplay I have ever seen during my time on this mud was from an Elkrosian. Don't assume that the player of a restricted role is responsible or mature.
I also happen to know that the magicker in question, during their first 12 hours in the wilderness, met no less than 5 or 6 different magickers, two of whom attacked unprovoked and without a word. It could be a fluke, but judging by the reports of many players, it's not far from what is to be expected lately.
As for the half-giant versus magicker, the only thing the giant has is immense offense, something that most magickers also gain. The giant doesn't learn how to completely disappear at the flick of a hand, how to create food and water, defend themselves almost completely from many types of damage, and all those other nice things that magickers can do depending on their element. And if the giant wants to train his skills, it happens through the risk of death with every challenging fight he enters, and at a progress many times slower than any magicker. He also has the tedious chore of roleplaying a retard.
Then there's the illusion of magickers being in the hands of responsible players. I wish it was so, but I know of cases where magicker special applications were approved to players who had been here for as little as six months. One particular player whose name shall not be mentioned had a 3 karma application approved despite the fact that I had submitted complaints about the player's blatant twinking and horrible roleplay more than once, and I doubt I'm the only one who did. Some of the worst roleplay I have ever seen during my time on this mud was from an Elkrosian. Don't assume that the player of a restricted role is responsible or mature.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on April 01, 2007, 09:30:49 PM
Post by: jhunter on April 01, 2007, 09:30:49 PM
Quote from: "Tisiphone"mmm, I lovr it when the forums start substituting flames for well-thought, rational replies. Remind me to get the marshmallows.
Seriously.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on April 01, 2007, 09:32:33 PM
Post by: jhunter on April 01, 2007, 09:32:33 PM
Quote from: "Doppelganger"Quote from: "jhunter"If I were the type of person to go get instant gratification
What is this "if" condition about? If you start your reply with "bullshit", I'd expect you to be brave and firm when stating your own opinion. Unless, of course, the "bullshit" word was a quick preview to what you are going to say next.
What about long term gratification, or is ability to pursue long term goals reserved for stellar roleplayers alone? I've asked you about powerseekers, but I didn't expect you to enlighten me about mindset of imbecilles who are mentally too weak to keep their characters alive and thus are concerned about first few days balance.
As much as I surprised with your outlook on what power is, I have to trust your opinion as promised. Though I still believe that you should have started your last post with something likeQuote from: "jhunter"If I were an idiot, yes.
Is there any point to this post other than to argue for the sake of arguing and trying to be insulting?
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Belenos on April 01, 2007, 10:31:09 PM
Post by: Belenos on April 01, 2007, 10:31:09 PM
Alright, lets get back to some semblance of civility. Post nicely.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Cegar on April 01, 2007, 10:36:04 PM
Post by: Cegar on April 01, 2007, 10:36:04 PM
I think that a lot of the issues brought up here are caused primarily by the end of our current world.
People are rushing to try new classes and try out new spells and explore all that they never did or could before. They also may be more twitchy about protecting the lives of their characters.
I predict that most of these problems will sort themselves out with 2.arm as people drift away from the magicker classes and take their time to enjoy the game once more.
People are rushing to try new classes and try out new spells and explore all that they never did or could before. They also may be more twitchy about protecting the lives of their characters.
I predict that most of these problems will sort themselves out with 2.arm as people drift away from the magicker classes and take their time to enjoy the game once more.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: alger on April 02, 2007, 02:25:52 AM
Post by: alger on April 02, 2007, 02:25:52 AM
Now that I think about it, amongst all my characters, the one that brought the most terror was my 0 karma elf burglar. I think karma classes are over-rated what's really strong are those races or classes that you can only get access to ig.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: cyberpatrol_735 on April 02, 2007, 07:47:47 PM
Post by: cyberpatrol_735 on April 02, 2007, 07:47:47 PM
Before this gets locked.
I just wanted to say.
Don't fear the magicker.
Fear the warrior affected by it.
In all sense people, this is an age-old gripe that somebody posts when they get killed by one.
My condolences. I refuse to argue the system, I like it.
I just wanted to say.
Don't fear the magicker.
Fear the warrior affected by it.
In all sense people, this is an age-old gripe that somebody posts when they get killed by one.
My condolences. I refuse to argue the system, I like it.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Agent_137 on April 03, 2007, 12:54:25 AM
Post by: Agent_137 on April 03, 2007, 12:54:25 AM
Come on baby... Don't fear the 'gicker
Baby take my hand... Don't fear the 'gicker
We'll be able to fly... Don't fear the 'gicker
Baby I'm your man...
Baby take my hand... Don't fear the 'gicker
We'll be able to fly... Don't fear the 'gicker
Baby I'm your man...
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: naatok on April 03, 2007, 12:53:13 PM
Post by: naatok on April 03, 2007, 12:53:13 PM
Magick in ArmageddonMud was always supposed to be powerful and fear inspiring....and also rare.
With the changes recently that I'm now reading about it seems that the 'rarity' factor is non-existent....which is going to severely impact the entire gameworld.
I understand that the planned demise of this game-world allows for 'flexibility' for some concepts, but the fact that magickers are dangerously powerful (or can get that way) isn't the real issue here. The real issue is probably that you're encountering a hell of alot more of them.
I might add that not just a few of these mages won't have the restraint that nearly all magickers used to have. :evil:
My not-so-humble opinion
With the changes recently that I'm now reading about it seems that the 'rarity' factor is non-existent....which is going to severely impact the entire gameworld.
I understand that the planned demise of this game-world allows for 'flexibility' for some concepts, but the fact that magickers are dangerously powerful (or can get that way) isn't the real issue here. The real issue is probably that you're encountering a hell of alot more of them.
I might add that not just a few of these mages won't have the restraint that nearly all magickers used to have. :evil:
My not-so-humble opinion
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: joyofdiscord on April 03, 2007, 03:43:25 PM
Post by: joyofdiscord on April 03, 2007, 03:43:25 PM
Remember, it was not that long ago that burglars and pickpockets where the ones breaking the mud. Remember when people used to complain that everyone that sat down at the bar totally lost everything on their belt and every apartment was cleaned out in a week? People -hated- losing their stuff and clamored for this and that stealthy class being made karma-required. Now in threads like these, people are declaring they've practically never been stolen from and what's more, they'd love to be.
This "too many magickers" complaint is nothing new, either. There may or may not actually be more magickers in terms of proportion today in the end days than during other relatively high-magicker times in the game's history. From my experience not terribly long ago in the elementalist quarter, it was common for anywhere from 1-3 elements to have no PC representation at all. If this is "too many magickers", I'd hate to play a gemmer when the proportion is "just right." If anything, I'd say more magickers were needed. It doesn't help that probably at least half of all magickers die before becoming even moderately skilled. We're all ready and willing to accept that since the end is coming, this time "too many magickers" is a true and valid complaint, but I remain unconvinced that it's a problem. Encounters with other magickers in the wilderness were rare from my perspective, and none of the mages I knew lacked appropriate responsibility and restraint in dealing with mundanes. As usual, though, magickers killed each other with abandon.
Magick is rare in Zalanthas, like a large of coins is rare, like speaking to a noble is rare. PCs tend to be involved in more important stuff than the average Amos. In the midst of end-of-the-world plots, which I'll venture to guess, might just involve some magick, it's only natural that magickal roles increase in prominence (but not just magickal roles, Guilders would be another example of a role I'd expect to be more important and active in these times).
So I don't just think it's tolerable that people might be rolling the magicker roles they've been imagining for years, in niches that won't exist in the new game, I think it's desireable. Magickers benefit from having other magickers around to roleplay with, and I think this is a time in the game's history where events will naturally tend to "zoom in" on and emphasize the magickal population, among other influential types of people, in much the same way the game has always "zoomed in" on the not-so-destitute-and-malnourished.
So my feeling is that if someone has the karma for a magicker and wants to play one, they should play one. This goes both for the magicker newbies and the players that have played lots of them, since the former need good examples of play from the latter.
When the new game comes along, mundanes will have a far greater appeal thanks to dual classing and since their social adaptability will let them become far more influential in the long run than any magicker. Any truly inept players who take advantage of no karma to make a magicker they can't really handle will certainly die off quickly in the unfamiliar world, just like so many magickers die early today. Those players that are confident in being able to earn karma again if it comes back won't feel any pressing urge to roll a magicker as the game starts, so I think things will balance out well enough.
This "too many magickers" complaint is nothing new, either. There may or may not actually be more magickers in terms of proportion today in the end days than during other relatively high-magicker times in the game's history. From my experience not terribly long ago in the elementalist quarter, it was common for anywhere from 1-3 elements to have no PC representation at all. If this is "too many magickers", I'd hate to play a gemmer when the proportion is "just right." If anything, I'd say more magickers were needed. It doesn't help that probably at least half of all magickers die before becoming even moderately skilled. We're all ready and willing to accept that since the end is coming, this time "too many magickers" is a true and valid complaint, but I remain unconvinced that it's a problem. Encounters with other magickers in the wilderness were rare from my perspective, and none of the mages I knew lacked appropriate responsibility and restraint in dealing with mundanes. As usual, though, magickers killed each other with abandon.
Magick is rare in Zalanthas, like a large of coins is rare, like speaking to a noble is rare. PCs tend to be involved in more important stuff than the average Amos. In the midst of end-of-the-world plots, which I'll venture to guess, might just involve some magick, it's only natural that magickal roles increase in prominence (but not just magickal roles, Guilders would be another example of a role I'd expect to be more important and active in these times).
So I don't just think it's tolerable that people might be rolling the magicker roles they've been imagining for years, in niches that won't exist in the new game, I think it's desireable. Magickers benefit from having other magickers around to roleplay with, and I think this is a time in the game's history where events will naturally tend to "zoom in" on and emphasize the magickal population, among other influential types of people, in much the same way the game has always "zoomed in" on the not-so-destitute-and-malnourished.
So my feeling is that if someone has the karma for a magicker and wants to play one, they should play one. This goes both for the magicker newbies and the players that have played lots of them, since the former need good examples of play from the latter.
When the new game comes along, mundanes will have a far greater appeal thanks to dual classing and since their social adaptability will let them become far more influential in the long run than any magicker. Any truly inept players who take advantage of no karma to make a magicker they can't really handle will certainly die off quickly in the unfamiliar world, just like so many magickers die early today. Those players that are confident in being able to earn karma again if it comes back won't feel any pressing urge to roll a magicker as the game starts, so I think things will balance out well enough.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Cegar on April 03, 2007, 04:55:51 PM
Post by: Cegar on April 03, 2007, 04:55:51 PM
Quote from: "Agent_137"Come on baby... Don't fear the 'gicker
Baby take my hand... Don't fear the 'gicker
We'll be able to fly... Don't fear the 'gicker
Baby I'm your man...
Needs more cowbell.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: manonfire on April 03, 2007, 05:20:44 PM
Post by: manonfire on April 03, 2007, 05:20:44 PM
Quote from: "Cegar"Quote from: "Agent_137"Come on baby... Don't fear the 'gicker
Baby take my hand... Don't fear the 'gicker
We'll be able to fly... Don't fear the 'gicker
Baby I'm your man...
Needs more cowbell.
Done.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jmordetsky on April 03, 2007, 11:40:22 PM
Post by: jmordetsky on April 03, 2007, 11:40:22 PM
Quote from: "naatok"Magick in ArmageddonMud was always supposed to be powerful and fear inspiring....and also rare.
With the changes recently that I'm now reading about it seems that the 'rarity' factor is non-existent....which is going to severely impact the entire gameworld.
I understand that the planned demise of this game-world allows for 'flexibility' for some concepts, but the fact that magickers are dangerously powerful (or can get that way) isn't the real issue here. The real issue is probably that you're encountering a hell of alot more of them.
I might add that not just a few of these mages won't have the restraint that nearly all magickers used to have. :evil:
My not-so-humble opinion
Seconded. Possibly Thirded.
Restraint being the important word in this post. Karma classes are Karma classes because they can kill in an instant. With great power comes great responsibility.
It appears of late the responsibility aspect has been tossed out the window, on many fronts.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Krath on April 04, 2007, 02:38:39 AM
Post by: Krath on April 04, 2007, 02:38:39 AM
Quote from: "jmordetsky"Quote from: "naatok"Magick in ArmageddonMud was always supposed to be powerful and fear inspiring....and also rare.
With the changes recently that I'm now reading about it seems that the 'rarity' factor is non-existent....which is going to severely impact the entire gameworld.
I understand that the planned demise of this game-world allows for 'flexibility' for some concepts, but the fact that magickers are dangerously powerful (or can get that way) isn't the real issue here. The real issue is probably that you're encountering a hell of alot more of them.
I might add that not just a few of these mages won't have the restraint that nearly all magickers used to have. :evil:
My not-so-humble opinion
Seconded. Possibly Thirded.
Restraint being the important word in this post. Karma classes are Karma classes because they can kill in an instant. With great power comes great responsibility.
It appears of late the responsibility aspect has been tossed out the window, on many fronts.
Thirded, I find it irresponsible, when people rush in with their marcos flaring, and kill
anything in under 1 second. I have done it before and I guess it is probably Karma, but I
have stopped because it doesnt make the game fun for anything.
I do believe however, that people are powergaming more now than they would be if they
knew the entirety of the staff was watching the game. BUT MY MAIN Gripe...About
Magickers is that it is ok for them to spam cast if they want, but the moment a Mundane
spams bash, kick, disarm, training, etc. they are shunned and lose karma. I think that is BS
but I am just a player not an Admin.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Hymwen on April 04, 2007, 06:25:31 AM
Post by: Hymwen on April 04, 2007, 06:25:31 AM
Note from Sanvean to replace text:
Do not post game mechanics on this board. Do not post lists of spells, branching mechanics, how many times you cast a spell, etc. The first time someone does it, they will be warned and a note to that effect made on that account. The second time, they will be banned.
This is not a change in policy. This is the way things have been since I started playing back in 1991 or 1992, when people were swiftly and efficiently banned when they passed around spell lists or words. The rule is to let people find these things out IC.
And since this thread has led to flames as well -- if you see something wrong on the boards, feel free to bring it to my or another admin's attention. Telling someone they're a twink or evil or whatever doesn't do anything but create long, flame-filled threads, sometimes in reaction to something that the original poster didn't realize was inappropriate.
Thanks,
Sanvean
Do not post game mechanics on this board. Do not post lists of spells, branching mechanics, how many times you cast a spell, etc. The first time someone does it, they will be warned and a note to that effect made on that account. The second time, they will be banned.
This is not a change in policy. This is the way things have been since I started playing back in 1991 or 1992, when people were swiftly and efficiently banned when they passed around spell lists or words. The rule is to let people find these things out IC.
And since this thread has led to flames as well -- if you see something wrong on the boards, feel free to bring it to my or another admin's attention. Telling someone they're a twink or evil or whatever doesn't do anything but create long, flame-filled threads, sometimes in reaction to something that the original poster didn't realize was inappropriate.
Thanks,
Sanvean
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Marauder Moe on April 04, 2007, 08:58:46 AM
Post by: Marauder Moe on April 04, 2007, 08:58:46 AM
Haha! I know which type of mage that is based off the number of letters in your spells. :P
But... that does seem to be an unusually large list for two days played. Makes me wonder if perhaps rate of learning was increased for the coming end of the game because it sure as hell took my mages a lot more than two days playing time to get a list that big.
But... that does seem to be an unusually large list for two days played. Makes me wonder if perhaps rate of learning was increased for the coming end of the game because it sure as hell took my mages a lot more than two days playing time to get a list that big.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LauraMars on April 04, 2007, 09:13:31 AM
Post by: LauraMars on April 04, 2007, 09:13:31 AM
No. I have experienced similar results in a similar length of time, before the end game announcement.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Marauder Moe on April 04, 2007, 09:23:24 AM
Post by: Marauder Moe on April 04, 2007, 09:23:24 AM
Well damn, maybe my magickers just suck, then. Also I suppose they didn't go out and use their powers for real that often, just holed up in the temple most of the time. I bet that makes a huge difference too.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: spawnloser on April 04, 2007, 09:29:35 AM
Post by: spawnloser on April 04, 2007, 09:29:35 AM
Well maybe you're just more focused on skill advancement than some of that play magickers and don't want to see them powered down, Hymwen? I've never had a magicker character branch that much in two days play time.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Shoka Windrunner on April 04, 2007, 09:51:57 AM
Post by: Shoka Windrunner on April 04, 2007, 09:51:57 AM
Edit from Sanvean - Do Not Post Spell Lists and Branching Figures. Thank you.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LauraMars on April 04, 2007, 09:55:08 AM
Post by: LauraMars on April 04, 2007, 09:55:08 AM
God dammit, do I ever hate the word twink. Damn it all to Disneyland.
Edit so I actually contribute something: Anyway, compare the two day mage's skill progression with that of a two day warrior of comparable stats/skill usage. The difference is vast. The two day mage branches her skill list twice over. The two day warrior doesn't even come close to branching.
Edit so I actually contribute something: Anyway, compare the two day mage's skill progression with that of a two day warrior of comparable stats/skill usage. The difference is vast. The two day mage branches her skill list twice over. The two day warrior doesn't even come close to branching.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Nao on April 04, 2007, 09:58:40 AM
Post by: Nao on April 04, 2007, 09:58:40 AM
With a character that got about six days old, then died, I got all my starting spells to mon but never branched. Granted, I didn't play the lone mage out, I stuck to my starting place and had lots of fun and interaction along the way.
So yes, it's not like that for everyone.
So yes, it's not like that for everyone.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Halaster on April 04, 2007, 09:58:52 AM
Post by: Halaster on April 04, 2007, 09:58:52 AM
Shoka makes a good point, IMO. Yes, you can possibly spam-cast your way to massive spells in short time. But that's not the point. When you do that, you are obviously neglecting a lot of character development in terms of personality, goals, dreams, etc.
The truly memorable mages in my mind are the ones whose personality developed right along with (or in front of) their magick. The best played ones were the ones who just played the character as maybe not knowing they knew magick, or at least were inexperienced with it. They'd play out figuring out what they knew, learning it. They might be at 10 days and have never even cast a spell, or hardly any. But they were memorable and fun to be around because they had personality. They weren't just some spell-casting machine.
The truly memorable mages in my mind are the ones whose personality developed right along with (or in front of) their magick. The best played ones were the ones who just played the character as maybe not knowing they knew magick, or at least were inexperienced with it. They'd play out figuring out what they knew, learning it. They might be at 10 days and have never even cast a spell, or hardly any. But they were memorable and fun to be around because they had personality. They weren't just some spell-casting machine.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Tarx on April 04, 2007, 10:14:32 AM
Post by: Tarx on April 04, 2007, 10:14:32 AM
There's other reasons to train your magickal abilities than just "seeking power." I've had characters do it for very simple or very complex reasons that had nothing to do with power.
The majority of gickers I've seen and played with recently are some of the best RPers I've seen. I've sent them kudos (or if I haven't, I need to check--thought I had). They all showed incredible restraint in a number of situations involving mundanes. There is one exception. But, you know. Always a bad apple in the bunch here and there.
The majority of gickers I've seen and played with recently are some of the best RPers I've seen. I've sent them kudos (or if I haven't, I need to check--thought I had). They all showed incredible restraint in a number of situations involving mundanes. There is one exception. But, you know. Always a bad apple in the bunch here and there.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on April 04, 2007, 10:15:38 AM
Post by: jhunter on April 04, 2007, 10:15:38 AM
Spell information edited out by Sanvean.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on April 04, 2007, 10:18:41 AM
Post by: jhunter on April 04, 2007, 10:18:41 AM
Quote from: "jmordetsky"Quote from: "naatok"Magick in ArmageddonMud was always supposed to be powerful and fear inspiring....and also rare.
With the changes recently that I'm now reading about it seems that the 'rarity' factor is non-existent....which is going to severely impact the entire gameworld.
I understand that the planned demise of this game-world allows for 'flexibility' for some concepts, but the fact that magickers are dangerously powerful (or can get that way) isn't the real issue here. The real issue is probably that you're encountering a hell of alot more of them.
I might add that not just a few of these mages won't have the restraint that nearly all magickers used to have. :evil:
My not-so-humble opinion
Seconded. Possibly Thirded.
Restraint being the important word in this post. Karma classes are Karma classes because they can kill in an instant. With great power comes great responsibility.
It appears of late the responsibility aspect has been tossed out the window, on many fronts.
That staff has said a few times that is not the reason for them being karma classes. It might be the reason for some but for some it is the fact that they are very difficult to play correctly.
Where in the hell does this misrepresentation come from that "all magickers can kill in an instant with a single spell" ? That is just simply not true for alot of them. Maybe at the highest ends of learning it is, but not on the average.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on April 04, 2007, 10:20:13 AM
Post by: jhunter on April 04, 2007, 10:20:13 AM
Quote from: "LauraMars"Anyway, compare the two day mage's skill progression with that of a two day warrior of comparable stats/skill usage. The difference is vast. The two day mage branches her skill list twice over. The two day warrior doesn't even come close to branching.
I believe Halaster and other staff members have said that this is intentional.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Hymwen on April 04, 2007, 10:20:18 AM
Post by: Hymwen on April 04, 2007, 10:20:18 AM
QuoteProves jack shit, other than if you are a twink. Yes you could twink it out. Get powerful. However twinks do that that regardless of class.
I didn't make that character to become powerful, I did it to see if it was possible. I'm not playing the character any further and I consider it an experiment, so while I do know that "twinking" like that isn't a good thing, it's not like I'm doing it so that I can kill a lot of people.
To me, it's not a question of "should you do it", it's a question of "can you do it", and the answer is obviously a big fat YES. Would you feel comfortable knowing that assassins can max backstab in 5 days (not saying they can) just because you know that they shouldn't do it?
I could have advanced that character even faster if I had done nothing but spam-casting the whole time, which wasn't the case. Your mage is apparently played more or less the intended way, and you don't sound like the type who is just interested in becoming deadly and winning the game. Some players are. In fact I think quite a few players are, judging by what I've seen through my whole time playing Armageddon. There will always be players to whom the most important thing is being able to defeat others, and it's it's not difficult to get to play a magicker. The character you saw was the 2-karma kind of magicker, not something you have to play nicely for 4 years to be granted. By those 2 days, I could survive lengthy combat (not kill, because I still hadn't developed my offensive spells) against creatures that I think most mundanes would consider quite dangerous, probably even for a 10 day warrior or ranger.
I'll say it again. Magickers should be powerful, they should be dangerous and people should have reasons to fear them. But it should not be so ridiculously easy to reach that, because it's the biggest twink magnet I've ever seen. If the way I played my magicker isn't how it's intended (I know it's not), then why is it still possible to advance so insanely fast? I branched before the twelve hour mark! Why is that window for powergaming and abuse wide open and only hindered if an imm is actively watching your boring cave-sitting ass for a good while? I bet the imms have more important things to do than make sure all the magickers are playing nice, I know I sure as hell wouldn't waste my time checking up on hermit mages all over the world because that has got to be the most tedious chore.
Why is the character type that is arguably the one most known for causing havoc and twinking also the one that most easily attains the ability to do so? There are no other characters who can progress through power at such a sickeningly fast rate, with such utter ease and little risk, and that's what I want to do everything I can to change. Apparently it took a real, played-out example to even get people to believe that it was possible.
So again, it's not a matter of whether or not you should do it, because of course you shouldn't. The problem is that you can, and some people do.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Marauder Moe on April 04, 2007, 10:23:46 AM
Post by: Marauder Moe on April 04, 2007, 10:23:46 AM
I don't think you can compare spell branching to skill branching. With the possible exception of merchants, I think there are many more spells to branch for mages than skills for the mundane guilds.
Anyway, I certainly didn't mean to imply Hymwen was a powergamer, just that possibly those results are atypical. One might very well be able to attain that level of skill increase by spending a lot of time in the wilds, constantly using (as opposed to practicing) magick. I could easily imagine a wilderness mage rarely having a full mana score. I think the risk of such a life (compared to being a city-bound gemmer) is a fair price for accelerated advancement, in theory at least. The immortals probably have a much better view of things, though.
Halaster also makes a good point. I played my favorite mage for fifteen days (time played, not RL time since creation) before he cast his first spell. If your mage character isn't fun to play without magick, he/she probably won't be that fun to play with it either.
Anyway, I certainly didn't mean to imply Hymwen was a powergamer, just that possibly those results are atypical. One might very well be able to attain that level of skill increase by spending a lot of time in the wilds, constantly using (as opposed to practicing) magick. I could easily imagine a wilderness mage rarely having a full mana score. I think the risk of such a life (compared to being a city-bound gemmer) is a fair price for accelerated advancement, in theory at least. The immortals probably have a much better view of things, though.
Halaster also makes a good point. I played my favorite mage for fifteen days (time played, not RL time since creation) before he cast his first spell. If your mage character isn't fun to play without magick, he/she probably won't be that fun to play with it either.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LoD on April 04, 2007, 10:26:04 AM
Post by: LoD on April 04, 2007, 10:26:04 AM
Quote from: "Halaster"The truly memorable mages in my mind are the ones whose personality developed right along with (or in front of) their magick.
Memorable as a player, or as an Imm? I remember several mages from many years ago such as Ra, Dalaran, Gerrol, Shoka, Alkyone, Samah, Krysta, but I can't say that I can recall even one that had the same impact on me as a player in recent years. What is memorable to me over the recent years are the faceless mages that dash along the north road, run through a grove six leagues from a major city-state that hates them all glowy and sparkly, or dragging people with their magicks through the city streets.
That isn't to say that there haven't been any well-played mages, in fact there have probably been several. However, those aren't the ones most commonly felt by the players, IMO. The 2-day spammers are the most memorable for them. The ones that seemingly ignore the dangers of being discovered, lurking contently outside of NPC range from major civilization centers, that end up hiding, time after time, within a city-state that hates and hunts them. Or sorcerers that crawl through the labyrinth figuring as long as they have barrier on, the several mega-powerful beings in the gameworld that would crush them in an instant due to their potential won't notice them.
I agree that the best mages are those that maintain a sense of rarity and mystery through the patience and caution apparent in their careful and thoughtful character development. Why the people who are seemingly incapable of this and strive simply to grow as powerful as they can, as quickly as they can, are allowed to play mages is beyond me. It is especially amusing to witness mages that probably consider themselves good role-players spam-sifting spice or moving through other mundane tasks without even the slightest of interest in creating a good scene.
That behavior is indicative of someone who is more interested in the destination than the journey. And the world would be a better place without those people playing magickers.
-LoD
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Marauder Moe on April 04, 2007, 10:27:02 AM
Post by: Marauder Moe on April 04, 2007, 10:27:02 AM
Totally incorrect game mechanic information edited out by Sanvean.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Hymwen on April 04, 2007, 10:30:20 AM
Post by: Hymwen on April 04, 2007, 10:30:20 AM
I had a tier 3 spell.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on April 04, 2007, 10:30:42 AM
Post by: jhunter on April 04, 2007, 10:30:42 AM
QuoteWhy is the character type that is arguably the one most known for causing havoc and twinking also the one that most easily attains the ability to do so?
Magickers causing havoc and being "troublesome" is part of the design of the gameworld. It doesn't mean that is actually what is going on -most- of the time. Most magickers I've played and played with only want to live and be left alone, any trouble with mundanes was brought on by the mundanes themselves.
Actually, the most twinking I've ever seen in the game was with crafting skills and not with spellcasting. Besides the fact that magicker players -are- watched by the staff and those who are caught twinking usually are given a warning to rein it in or have their options removed.
You seem to be under the misconception that -most- of the magickers out there are causing trouble with others and their players are all doing as you did with your mage. This is just simply not true.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Tarx on April 04, 2007, 10:34:17 AM
Post by: Tarx on April 04, 2007, 10:34:17 AM
QuoteAnother thing is that the starting spells branch into tier two spells way faster than tier two spells branch into tier three spells, perhaps on an order of magnitude.
Well-noted, good sir. Damned correct, too.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Lizzie on April 04, 2007, 10:34:42 AM
Post by: Lizzie on April 04, 2007, 10:34:42 AM
As a player of a mundane PC, I'll chime in on this. I branched a few very useful non-magicker combat skills in a very short period of time. Less than 2 days play-time in fact. My current progression rate is achingly slow, and has been since I started her. But, I rarely use the combat skills that come with the class. Sparring is all well and good, but that is sporadic at best, non-existent most of the time. If I had joined a clan that was more active with sparring, and had more people to spar with, it's my guess that I would be that "uber" combat character people claim can't exist in the same amount of time that magickers can. It's my guess, based on the fact that I branched so quickly with so little use of the skills the branches came from, that those skills would have been maxed long ago. I'd probably be capable of doing all kinds of serious damage that my PC wouldn't even dream of inflicting on anyone - one-shot kills, no problem. If I had spent my time skill maxing and not RPing. And my character isn't a magicker. So I don't think the arguement that a magicker can do this or that is a good arguement at all, because from my own experience, so can another class that isn't magick-related.
I don't know about the other classes since this is only my 2nd character in the game, and my first was a merchant class with little access to anyone who could help her learn recipes for crafting stuff :) But it's also my guess, that if I -had- access to that information, via RP or even a cheat-sheet, my merchant would've mastered it pretty quickly. IF I had spent my time spam-crafting. And if I had done that, I probably would've been rich enough to buy myself a seat on the Triumvirate, which would've made me a whole lot more "powerful" and influential than any 10-day uber-assassin magicker.
L. Stanson
I don't know about the other classes since this is only my 2nd character in the game, and my first was a merchant class with little access to anyone who could help her learn recipes for crafting stuff :) But it's also my guess, that if I -had- access to that information, via RP or even a cheat-sheet, my merchant would've mastered it pretty quickly. IF I had spent my time spam-crafting. And if I had done that, I probably would've been rich enough to buy myself a seat on the Triumvirate, which would've made me a whole lot more "powerful" and influential than any 10-day uber-assassin magicker.
L. Stanson
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Hymwen on April 04, 2007, 10:35:45 AM
Post by: Hymwen on April 04, 2007, 10:35:45 AM
QuoteActually, the most twinking I've ever seen in the game was with crafting skills and not with spellcasting. Besides the fact that magicker players -are- watched by the staff and those who are caught twinking usually are given a warning to rein it in or have their options removed.
You seem to be under the misconception that -most- of the magickers out there are causing trouble with others and their players are all doing as you did with your mage. This is just simply not true.
Twinky crafting does not severely affect other players in the same way magick can. You can't craft someone to death or completely defy the documentation by producing jewelry.
No, I'm under no misconceptions. I never said those words that you're putting in my mouth. However, it's no secret that some do it, and the very core of the problem is that you can do it. I hope I don't have to say it any more times.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LoD on April 04, 2007, 10:42:34 AM
Post by: LoD on April 04, 2007, 10:42:34 AM
Quote from: "Shoka Windrunner"But your example? Proves nothing, other than if you do spam cast the shit out of things you can get a lot of spells fast.
However I'm looking at your list, you have only 5 spells that are at mon. That means you have probably only have 5 spells that can really save your ass or be much of a threat to another player. (yes there are exceptions but there isn't any one shot kill spells like that) Hmm...so do I.
So I don't see your point. My character has a pretty good wisdom stat, and I have IC motivation to learn more about spells. However you have far surpassed me. Guess I'm not hard core enough about spamming.
Proves jack shit, other than if you are a twink. Yes you could twink it out. Get powerful. However twinks do that that regardless of class.
Actually, Shoka, her example proves that it is possible for one of the most powerful classes in the game to generate a fair amount of power within a very short amount of time. She's making the point that this model is a magnet for exactly the wrong type of player.
Consider for a moment that the entire northern part of the game is a gigantic rogue magicker playground. Filled with hidey holes, water sources, food items, and plenty of NPC targets, it is an environment ripe for abuse. The very culture of the game encourages mages to live in relative solitude for fear of being killed. At least, until they are able to defend themselves -- when players probably rationalize "now I can start playing my character without worrying about being killed".
Does this happen all the time? Of course not. Is it the norm? I doubt it. However, the problem is that the people that do follow this model are the same ones causing the perception of magick in the game to rise. Whenever you see a thread like this pop up, you should realize that what Hymwen is demonstrating is part of the issue.
Hymwen's point, and mine as well, is that no class in the game should have the potential to rise so swiftly and easily in coded power without a system of checks and balances. In fact, my contention is that magickers should take the most time to become powerful because of their potential. This is not the case, and obviously a good deal of the "wrong" type of mages get through the nets.
There is merit to Hymwen's experiment, if only to convince the naysayers of what is possible rather than probably. Some, like her and myself, consider it to be a problem. Do you think that murdering someone shouldn't be against the law simply because you haven't ever done it? Or is it something worth policing because of the people that do?
That's the type of situation Hymwen is describing.
-LoD
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LauraMars on April 04, 2007, 10:44:09 AM
Post by: LauraMars on April 04, 2007, 10:44:09 AM
I agree with Halaster in that yes, mages, like ANY OTHER CHARACTER of ANY OTHER GUILD are more interesting and more rewarding if you play them as a character rather than a skill set. That is the nature of the story we write.
But if the staff intend for mages to progress as fast as they obviously can, why are we not supposed to do it? If we aren't supposed to do it, why make it possible? Why not make it...IMPOSSIBLE? Isn't it obvious that if the power is there, people will use it?
I remember someone saying something like, "Mages have the ability to gain spells so quickly, because that is how they will survive against the dangerous mundanes." Yet here Hymwen has posted the results of the two day experiment, and behold. Tempers are flaring, people are calling her a twink and shooting her staff-sanctioned actions down.
I'm confused.
But if the staff intend for mages to progress as fast as they obviously can, why are we not supposed to do it? If we aren't supposed to do it, why make it possible? Why not make it...IMPOSSIBLE? Isn't it obvious that if the power is there, people will use it?
I remember someone saying something like, "Mages have the ability to gain spells so quickly, because that is how they will survive against the dangerous mundanes." Yet here Hymwen has posted the results of the two day experiment, and behold. Tempers are flaring, people are calling her a twink and shooting her staff-sanctioned actions down.
I'm confused.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Halaster on April 04, 2007, 10:48:00 AM
Post by: Halaster on April 04, 2007, 10:48:00 AM
Quote from: "LoD"
Memorable as a player, or as an Imm?
Both, but I mostly meant as a player.
Quote from: "LoD"
Why the people who are seemingly incapable of this and strive simply to grow as powerful as they can, as quickly as they can, are allowed to play mages is beyond me. -LoD
I wholeheartedly agree. Any lifting of karma restrictions just because the game is ending (or a new one starting) is a very bad idea (IMO) and is the single biggest cause of the degredation of the game that is currently being experienced.
I am all about mages being powerful and having great power, yadda yadda. But I also wish they were rarer than currently being experienced. I guess people are playing them more, and being allowed to play them more, because the End is Nigh. The obvious, unfortunate side effect of this is that it makes them no longer rare and totally throws things out of whack.
My personal opinion is that it should be harder to get the karma/approval to play them than it is, so that they remain rare, despite the fact that the game will soon end. I hate knowing that the "last days" will be tainted by a vast swarm of people playing mages who shouldn't be.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Hymwen on April 04, 2007, 10:56:16 AM
Post by: Hymwen on April 04, 2007, 10:56:16 AM
That comforts me somewhat to hear.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Forest Junkie on April 04, 2007, 10:57:13 AM
Post by: Forest Junkie on April 04, 2007, 10:57:13 AM
Quote from: "Hymwen"I didn't make that character to become powerful, I did it to see if it was possible.
Therein lies the flaw of your experiment. You set out with an established, inherent bias that would drive you to twink as much as possible to prove a point on the general discussion board of ArmageddonMUD so that you could win an argument on the internet. *eyeroll*
Quote from: "Hymwen"I'm not playing the character any further and I consider it an experiment, so while I do know that "twinking" like that isn't a good thing, it's not like I'm doing it so that I can kill a lot of people.
We make characters on this mud to roleplay and tell a story. I am stunned that you are "quitting" after "proving your point". I find that highly discouraging as a player and rude to those who know your pc. (And yes, I DO know your pc, and I DO find that rude).
Some people twink on rangers, warriors, burglars, pickpockets, hell even MERCHANTS.
Twinking happens. If you witness it, mail the mud. If you're doing it, stop. If you think mages are too powerful compared to mundane classes, then Halaster and the other staff who have tinkered with them have completed what they set out to do.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Halaster on April 04, 2007, 10:58:45 AM
Post by: Halaster on April 04, 2007, 10:58:45 AM
Quote from: "LauraMars"
But if the staff intend for mages to progress as fast as they obviously can, why are we not supposed to do it? If we aren't supposed to do it, why make it possible? Why not make it...IMPOSSIBLE? Isn't it obvious that if the power is there, people will use it?
In restrospect, it's kind of an interesting situation that developed with this kind of thing. Long ago, it became evident mages were lame and weak. So, a decision was made to change that, and so it became fairly easy for them to get a moderate amount of power to survive fairly quick. This was done during the time when mages were rare so that was OK. I think we (myself being one of the main ones) didn't really totally think how that might look if they became considerably more commonplace.
In other words, the entire magick system and method of mages achieving power was completely, totally intentional. We meant for them to be able to branch quickly. But it was a system designed and intended for people who were uncommon at best if not outright rare. It didn't accomodate for large numbers, nor was never meant to be that way. They were made powerful because they were rare.
So, Laura, I think that at least meshes the seemingly conflicting ideas?
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Mudder on April 04, 2007, 11:00:02 AM
Post by: Mudder on April 04, 2007, 11:00:02 AM
Game information edited out by Sanvean.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on April 04, 2007, 11:01:32 AM
Post by: jhunter on April 04, 2007, 11:01:32 AM
Quote from: "Hymwen"QuoteActually, the most twinking I've ever seen in the game was with crafting skills and not with spellcasting. Besides the fact that magicker players -are- watched by the staff and those who are caught twinking usually are given a warning to rein it in or have their options removed.
You seem to be under the misconception that -most- of the magickers out there are causing trouble with others and their players are all doing as you did with your mage. This is just simply not true.
Twinky crafting does not severely affect other players in the same way magick can. You can't craft someone to death or completely defy the documentation by producing jewelry.
No, I'm under no misconceptions. I never said those words that you're putting in my mouth. However, it's no secret that some do it, and the very core of the problem is that you can do it. I hope I don't have to say it any more times.
You can't defy the documentation by practicing magick either.
I never stated that you said it. What I -am- saying is that by your terminology, by how you're presenting your posts, it appears that is what you believe. It's no secret that people of any guild can twink out their skills and powergame. They usually do not keep any karma options for long or get any period.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LauraMars on April 04, 2007, 11:16:28 AM
Post by: LauraMars on April 04, 2007, 11:16:28 AM
Well it is obvious they're not so rare anymore.
I don't mind mages being powerful, but the rate of their progression is stunningly fast. Like LoD says, a solution would be to allow mages to become as powerful as they are, but make it a much more lengthy process. Slowing down the rate of their skill progression would both discourage the havoc-inclined from wreaking such, and encourage the roleplayers to plan out their characters a little more.
I like magickal characters alot, but seeing their powers used in this way is discouraging. My favorite magicker never cast a spell in 15 days of playtime, until the day she died. I think the majority of people who would be upset about the fast rate of skill progression being nerfed are those who want to use the skills for evil and want them fast, rather than people who are more concerned with the character.
I don't mind mages being powerful, but the rate of their progression is stunningly fast. Like LoD says, a solution would be to allow mages to become as powerful as they are, but make it a much more lengthy process. Slowing down the rate of their skill progression would both discourage the havoc-inclined from wreaking such, and encourage the roleplayers to plan out their characters a little more.
I like magickal characters alot, but seeing their powers used in this way is discouraging. My favorite magicker never cast a spell in 15 days of playtime, until the day she died. I think the majority of people who would be upset about the fast rate of skill progression being nerfed are those who want to use the skills for evil and want them fast, rather than people who are more concerned with the character.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LoD on April 04, 2007, 11:17:17 AM
Post by: LoD on April 04, 2007, 11:17:17 AM
Quote from: "Forest Junkie"Therein lies the flaw of your experiment. You set out with an established, inherent bias that would drive you to twink as much as possible to prove a point on the general discussion board of ArmageddonMUD so that you could win an argument on the internet. *eyeroll*
Hymwen's rise to power as an experiment to lend a concise and accurate accounting of how the mage model works is exponentially better than the players who are swiftly rising to power to twink it out.
We do play characters on this MUD to roleplay and tell a story, but the extent to which Hymwen has gone to provide herself, and others, with factual support to her claim only goes to show how much this subject is affecting people. I grow weary of those players who defend magick for magick's sake clinging to the scraps of Imm snippets that support their arguement that "everything is working as the Imm's intended."
The Imms are referring to the magicker model, not to the current state of magickers in the game. Hymwen is outlining part of the problem, which is that the magicker model is attractive to twink players. Not only that, but it rewards them far more quickly and easily than any mundane class ever could -- and they don't even need to interact with anyone to do it.
The other part of the issue lies with Halaster's most recent comment regarding the rarity and mystery of mages being all by gone from the game as a result of both lax karma restrictions and the end of the game. It is irresponsible of us, as players, to simply accept the gameworld for what it is and keep our mouths shut when we are experiencing gameplay that runs counter to the documentation, away from the spirit of the game, and detracts from the world most of us fell in love with.
Don't attack Hymwen because she's been forced to these extremes. Instead, allow yourself to view the reasons behind the action and understand what is driving someone who is clearly passionate about the game to do these things. Is it because the game is running smoothly and the system (not the classes) are balanced? Or is it because there might be issues worth debating, worth reviewing, and, perhaps, worth addressing.
I actually find it rather sad that this entire issue has been allowed to go so far that players are recognizing and spending time addressing the game's faults rather than enjoying the game's many successes.
If you cannot see past the experiment for the reasons behind it, then you should perhaps consider that and what it means.
-LoD
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: bloodfromstone on April 04, 2007, 11:25:39 AM
Post by: bloodfromstone on April 04, 2007, 11:25:39 AM
I love you, LoD.
Everyone gets angry (rightfully so) when someone makes an argument that isn't based in fact or evidence. Hymwen developed facts and evidence for her point, the goal of which is not the win an argument on the internet. It is to improve a part of the game that she (and others) see as flawed. People applaud when players go out of their way to write up locations to improve the game, and they get all weepy eyed when someone devotes time to drawing a picture to help solidify a part of the gameworld, and thereby improving the quality of the game. Hymwen basically did the same thing. She took her time to do something that she felt would help lead to the improvement of a part of the game. She already stated she didn't harm any other PCs in the process, so who cares? Don't take the game too seriously. The day we're not allowed to make characters to experiment or mess around because Armageddon is Serious Business is a sad day.
Everyone gets angry (rightfully so) when someone makes an argument that isn't based in fact or evidence. Hymwen developed facts and evidence for her point, the goal of which is not the win an argument on the internet. It is to improve a part of the game that she (and others) see as flawed. People applaud when players go out of their way to write up locations to improve the game, and they get all weepy eyed when someone devotes time to drawing a picture to help solidify a part of the gameworld, and thereby improving the quality of the game. Hymwen basically did the same thing. She took her time to do something that she felt would help lead to the improvement of a part of the game. She already stated she didn't harm any other PCs in the process, so who cares? Don't take the game too seriously. The day we're not allowed to make characters to experiment or mess around because Armageddon is Serious Business is a sad day.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Twilight on April 04, 2007, 11:25:57 AM
Post by: Twilight on April 04, 2007, 11:25:57 AM
Having gone through several iterations of magickers and changes to them, I have to say I love the potential power of magickers. I'm not so thrilled about how fast one can progress, or about how the whole learning system works now. Rather than have all the starting spells have the bump to starting percentage (when did that happen, 5-6 years ago?) I'd be happy with a couple of key ones having a bumped percentage, and the rest back to where they were before. Ones that either contribute to the survivability of the character, or directly branch to something that does.
That said, I'm really enjoying the current population of mages. This is because until about the last year and a half, every mage I had (and I had more than a few) would meet generally less than five mages in their lifetimes. It never felt like you were actually involved with magick, whereas nowadays you can get into things where you feel like you are. Meaning beyond just the coded spells you get. That is awesome. There are actually characters in the game that are knowledgeable about magick, and you actually have a chance to meet them. I'm sure there were before as well, but they were so exceedingly rare that even if you made a concerted effort to try to find them, you would be extremely lucky to encounter them. This is one of the coolest things for players of magickers about the current situation. These people exist and you could probably find them.
On the other hand, I wouldn't want the current situation to exist over an extended period. Sure, there are things probably even the knowledgeable characters and even players don't know about, but on the other hand some previous things that were THE secrets of secrets now seem fairly commonplace. Hopefully those all change for Arm2.
That said, I'm really enjoying the current population of mages. This is because until about the last year and a half, every mage I had (and I had more than a few) would meet generally less than five mages in their lifetimes. It never felt like you were actually involved with magick, whereas nowadays you can get into things where you feel like you are. Meaning beyond just the coded spells you get. That is awesome. There are actually characters in the game that are knowledgeable about magick, and you actually have a chance to meet them. I'm sure there were before as well, but they were so exceedingly rare that even if you made a concerted effort to try to find them, you would be extremely lucky to encounter them. This is one of the coolest things for players of magickers about the current situation. These people exist and you could probably find them.
On the other hand, I wouldn't want the current situation to exist over an extended period. Sure, there are things probably even the knowledgeable characters and even players don't know about, but on the other hand some previous things that were THE secrets of secrets now seem fairly commonplace. Hopefully those all change for Arm2.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Forest Junkie on April 04, 2007, 11:28:40 AM
Post by: Forest Junkie on April 04, 2007, 11:28:40 AM
Quote from: "LoD"Hymwen's rise to power as an experiment to lend a concise and accurate accounting of how the mage model works is exponentially better than the players who are swiftly rising to power to twink it out.
Am I the only one that finds these statements disturbing? Dude, what she did was WRONG, if not worse than the asshole twinks who do misuse the code to gain power.
Quote from: "LoD"We do play characters on this MUD to roleplay and tell a story, but the extent to which Hymwen has gone to provide herself, and others, with factual support to her claim only goes to show how much this subject is affecting people.
What?! Are you kidding me? We do NOT make pcs on this game to play experiments and prove fucking points on the damned gdb, a DISCUSSION board on the fuckin' internet. This isn't debate class, or the senate floor, it's an online gaming community. Let the immortals pass out information in how easy it is to branch 'x' class, not some player. You guys and your arguments are getting rediculous.
Quote from: "LoD"I grow weary of those players who defend magick for magick's sake clinging to the scraps of Imm snippets that support their arguement that "everything is working as the Imm's intended."
Alright, I've had enough of this shit. You've had beef against magickers ever since you lost your buff warrior to one. It's time to grow the fuck up and stop harassing us players who don't twink. I've watched you make similar posts for a couple years now, and I've had enough of this. No one is clinging to "snippets" from immortal dialogue to support their argument, you make it sound as if we're trying to hold onto the last vestige of something, whatever that may be, I just don't know. You've held a particularly nasty bias towards magickers and their players, and your arguments have been detrimental to this community as a whole, for your posts alone cause others to gravitate around you due to your longlived pc's. They see "omfg lolz LoD posted he must be right" and jump on your fucking bandwagon, whether you're right or wrong, or even post concise and well thoughtout arguments (which in this case you haven't - I don't consider making accusations of "clinging to support" a very strong statement that proves any point whatsoever).
If you grow weary of us, then I am most certainly growing fucking weary with you and your holier than thou attitude. You have no idea what you speak of, yet you present yourself as the champion of the "mundane" players, the fallen pariah whom has risen from the ashes to lead his acolytes to glory and victory on the damned general discussion board.
I'm done. This is bullshit. It's annoying and making my bloodpressure rise just thinking about it. I'm going to the fuckin' gun-range this afternoon - maybe I'll go blow the fuck out of some snakes or something.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Malken on April 04, 2007, 11:29:06 AM
Post by: Malken on April 04, 2007, 11:29:06 AM
Quote from: "Halaster"
I wholeheartedly agree. Any lifting of karma restrictions just because the game is ending (or a new one starting) is a very bad idea (IMO) and is the single biggest cause of the degredation of the game that is currently being experienced.
The sad part is that the "End" is not even near.. There's what, at least 6 months left now before the game ends? And there's probably going to be a few more complications, so let's just say 9 months just to play it safe..
So does that mean that the few of us who decided to stick with the mud because we were promised that we wouldn't regret it and great things would happen and it'd be exciting times to live in will now be stuck in a degrading mud where restrictions are pulled away and all the admins are busy elsewhere building the new mud instead of keeping the system in check?
Quote from: "Hymwen"
That comforts me somewhat to hear.
It'd be comforting if Halaster was still part of the administration, yes... Now this comes from the guy who was probably the only one left trying to convince us that everything was going as planned and there wasn't too many or too few magickers :?
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Mudder on April 04, 2007, 11:30:54 AM
Post by: Mudder on April 04, 2007, 11:30:54 AM
I have had spells lvl up on every cast, go from one power lvl to three or four higher in such few casting attempts. One reason I believe magickers are lvling up faster is the same reason -warrriors are uber strong. Like myself and I'm sure other magickers put wisdom as the number one priority, and I can tell you since the stat priorioty was put in I think I have played like 3 mages and put wisdom has #1 and never got anything lower than exceptional, thus making my spells go up unbeleivably fast.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: bloodfromstone on April 04, 2007, 11:34:36 AM
Post by: bloodfromstone on April 04, 2007, 11:34:36 AM
Whoa, there, Forest Junkie. Your arguments and statements will be a lot more easily received and, well, not crazy-sounding if you don't swear a lot and insult other players.
I have to agree with Malken, back on topic. The End isn't just around the corner. It'd be nice to see something put in place to keep the game world as it's supposed to be in the mean time. I've always been all for a raw limiter on how many mages can be in the world, but that's just me...
I have to agree with Malken, back on topic. The End isn't just around the corner. It'd be nice to see something put in place to keep the game world as it's supposed to be in the mean time. I've always been all for a raw limiter on how many mages can be in the world, but that's just me...
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LauraMars on April 04, 2007, 11:37:21 AM
Post by: LauraMars on April 04, 2007, 11:37:21 AM
Um..Forest Junkie...take a deep breath!
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Malken on April 04, 2007, 11:37:25 AM
Post by: Malken on April 04, 2007, 11:37:25 AM
Quote from: "Mudder"and I can tell you since the stat priorioty was put in I think I have played like 3 mages and put wisdom has #1 and never got anything lower than exceptional, thus making my spells go up unbeleivably fast.
I said that, too, a few months ago, but everyone skipped over it.. Come on, we all know that at least 99% of the players that play magickers will stat prioritize wisdom.. It's THE stat you need, and more than half the time, you'll never get anything less than pretty freakin' good wisdom that way.
Another difference between warriors and magickers is that magickers only really need one stat to give them a major bonus in their class and that bonus is quite easy to gain.
A warrior probably needs more than decent strength, agility and endurance if they want a good starting boost, and on top of that, a good wisdom certainly doesn't hurt, but that's much more difficult to achieve than just getting one exceptional stat.
And don't forget to take your medicine while you're at it, too, Forest Junkie.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Marauder Moe on April 04, 2007, 11:46:07 AM
Post by: Marauder Moe on April 04, 2007, 11:46:07 AM
I don't think what Hymwen did was so terrible. It's not like she didn't roleplay too or anything, at least I assume. Though, if I were her I'd totally keep the character. No reason you can't change the focus of a character (unless you're a dwarf) and start doing things differently. Have some goals beyond gaining power, make more friends... or enemies.
I do understand the defensive sentiment, though. I myself am a pretty big defender of magickers. I would really hate that the actions of a few (or many) players who are perceived as powergamers to ruin things for the more restrained players.
Still, I'm open to the possibility that something is wrong and something needs to be done. Not many of the solutions are that good, though. Weakening magickers would take away the fear that, in theory at least, is associated with them. Slowing down spell progression is just going only going to slightly hinder powergamers, not stop them, while it could cripple the more casual players. Karma reform would certainly make them more rare, but naturally you're sacrificing magicker-magicker interaction.
I do understand the defensive sentiment, though. I myself am a pretty big defender of magickers. I would really hate that the actions of a few (or many) players who are perceived as powergamers to ruin things for the more restrained players.
Still, I'm open to the possibility that something is wrong and something needs to be done. Not many of the solutions are that good, though. Weakening magickers would take away the fear that, in theory at least, is associated with them. Slowing down spell progression is just going only going to slightly hinder powergamers, not stop them, while it could cripple the more casual players. Karma reform would certainly make them more rare, but naturally you're sacrificing magicker-magicker interaction.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Boggis on April 04, 2007, 11:46:43 AM
Post by: Boggis on April 04, 2007, 11:46:43 AM
Quote from: "Forest Junkie".......
Thank you for making me feel better in work today. I was having a irritating day but to see somebody blow their top so spectacularly in a rant like that just cheered me up no end. I don't agree with it at all but it was hilarious to read nonetheless.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LoD on April 04, 2007, 11:47:12 AM
Post by: LoD on April 04, 2007, 11:47:12 AM
Quote from: "Forest Junkie"Alright, I've had enough of this shit. You've had beef against magickers ever since you lost your buff warrior to one. It's time to grow the fuck up and stop harassing us players who don't twink. I've watched you make similar posts for a couple years now, and I've had enough of this.
If cursing and bolding words in stentences to help make your point is a measure of maturity, then I'm sorry to disappoint. I've been frustrated with magickers in game far before I ever lost a "buff warrior" to one, which was actually to an NPC, and doesn't even really have a bearing on this particular conversation. Assumptions aren't going to win you arguements, which is what this entire thread is about -- someone's "hate" for magickers in the game. A thread, you'll notice, that I didn't start.
Quote from: "Forest Junkie"]If you grow weary of us, then I am most certainly growing fucking weary with you and your holier than thou attitude. You have no idea what you speak of, yet you present yourself as the champion of the "mundane" players, the fallen pariah whom has risen from the ashes to lead his acolytes to glory and victory on the damned general discussion board.
If you've assumed all of these things about me, that's your problem. I never claimed to be a champion of anything. However, I do happen to use past experience, supported points, valid arguements, and a logical analysis of the situation to formulate my opinion. I'm sorry it doesn't agree with yours, but that isn't a reason to curse and call people names. Other people on the forums disagree with me, but they seem plenty capable of making constructive posts that address my arguements instead of me, the player.
In fact, the entire idea of civil conversation frustrating you to the point of running to a "gun range" to shoot helpless animals doesn't do much for your own credibility as a mature and rationale person. So you can understand when someone might take your comments, which have nothing to do with the conversation and everything to do with attacking people personally, with a grain of salt.
None of my comments are meant to change the way magickers progress through their spell tiers, but to place some attention on the fact that several factors are contributing to a degradation in gameplay due to the proliferation of magickers. And while I agree that it's ideal for someone to assume a role with the full intention of playing out the character, I'd rather have 10 Hymwen magickers quietly testing things in the background than 1 twink magicker aggressively causing trouble.
-LoD
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: ale six on April 04, 2007, 11:54:29 AM
Post by: ale six on April 04, 2007, 11:54:29 AM
Quote from: "Insult Junkie"Am I the only one that finds these statements disturbing? Dude, what she did was WRONG, if not worse than the asshole twinks who do misuse the code to gain power.What I find disturbing is the lengths some people are going to defend magickers in the face of clear evidence that they branch really really really quick if you want them to. You can argue whether that's right or not, just like you can argue if it's right for an assassin to sneakhide everywhere she goes and practice backstab on scrabs, but the fact is, you can do it and PEOPLE ARE DOING IT, because the game lets them.
I would be insanely upset and worried if it was possible to make an assassin, and within two days, progress my skills to the point where I could kill with one backstab, and had high enough sneak/hide to backstab past your average NPC guard. But for some reason, it takes a mundane character about 15 days to max out and branch their tier 1 skills, while a mage can branch her tier 1 spells in about one day?
Here's my take on things, what I think is the formula for the problems we're seeing lately:
1) Game is ending... sometime vaguely soon. Everyone is rushing to play all the guilds now before things end. More mages, mindbenders, sorcs, etc.
2) People are also applying for special applications for guilds above their karma level in higher numbers. I wonder if there's a difference between how many are being accepted lately vs. how many used to be accepted. My hypothesis would be yes.
3) Mages, as Halaster said, were designed to hit lots of power faster than normal, because they were intended to be a small, controlled segment of the population played by responsible players.
4) Because if 1 and 2, the mage population is no longer as small or as controlled, and inevitably that means there will be more irresponsible mages. Unfortunately these mages are still being allowed to progress the same way they did under the old standard.
I think this is a sad thing all around. Not only is magick becoming less rare and mysterious, we're losing mundane characters that would normally be playing in the cities in favor of mage characters who can frolic around the deserts, or hide out in the rinth or Red Storm. I guess that's great if you enjoy playing in those places. As a mostly city-based player it's hard for me to adjust that the central areas that were once the focus of the game now seem like the boring safespots hidden away from Super Magicky Dangerland everywhere else.
One last thing... I feel like this debate is starting to attack the messenger and not the message. Hymwen gets called a twink for showing she can double her spell list in two days without even spending her whole time spamming. People flame LoD, and flame the rest of us for agreeing with him, as if that invalidates everything we say. I guess if you REALLY like mages that much that you so vehemently want to resist anything that might change them, go ahead. For my part, I wish they were far less prominent right now.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Hymwen on April 04, 2007, 11:55:44 AM
Post by: Hymwen on April 04, 2007, 11:55:44 AM
QuoteI do understand the defensive sentiment, though. I myself am a pretty big defender of magickers. I would really hate that the actions of a few (or many) players who are perceived as powergamers to ruin things for the more restrained players.
I think some people are misunderstanding a little. I don't want things to get any worse for those who play what I and others consider responsible magickers. It's the fact that doing the opposite is very rewarding that bothers me.
Funny thing is that I'm being called a twink for advancing a character so fast, yet some of the same people are telling me that the system should work like that. If you didn't play that way and you know that it's wrong to do, why do you care if I want it changed? If you did (ab)use the ridiculously fast skill progression of magickers to your advantage, then you can hardly call others a twink for doing so.
That's not targeted at anyone specific, I just find the whole thing odd.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Twilight on April 04, 2007, 12:00:41 PM
Post by: Twilight on April 04, 2007, 12:00:41 PM
I don't want to go into the mechanics I've noticed about how you increase the power of your spells and branch them, but I will say that there is a maximum rate at which you can progress your magicking character. It may be too fast for some people's taste, but do not think for a second it doesn't exist.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Apocalyptic_Cow on April 04, 2007, 12:03:08 PM
Post by: Apocalyptic_Cow on April 04, 2007, 12:03:08 PM
Quote from: "Hymwen"For some reason, I find this really disappointing. It seems you're just trying to startle people. For the last RL year and a half, I've placed extensively with mages in group-oriented situations, and while I can't speak for the few odd stragglers, the RP has been prime (thus keeping me there), and progression has been fine. If you've proven the obvious, that powergaming is possible, I'll attest that there is also some fantastic RP going on, and this thread risks throwing the baby out with the bathwater. (apologies if you've ever actually done this)
So I made a rogue mage recently, not because I wanted to play one but simply to see for myself if the skill progression was really as fast and easy as many of us thought. It was faster than I had imagined. At two days played, here's the result:
By making characters with OOC aims, like experimenting, or proving points on the discussion board, you're contributing to the problem. We don't need more empty PCs, that's one of the core problems this thread is struggling to fix. Why not help the situation, create a character who isn't what this thread is denouncing, and inject some life into it?
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Hymwen on April 04, 2007, 12:10:22 PM
Post by: Hymwen on April 04, 2007, 12:10:22 PM
Because I don't want to play a career magicker. I don't get your point, how are your friends who are apparently responsible and interesting roleplayers harmed in any way by my attempt to make powergaming less rewarding?
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Dakurus on April 04, 2007, 12:11:32 PM
Post by: Dakurus on April 04, 2007, 12:11:32 PM
I know everyone enjoys having a group of similar folk around them when they play. It's more sociable, provides a more robust environment, and is generally more fun. This is true, if you're in the Byn, in a tribe, in a rinth gang, in a house military, being a gemmer/temple devotee, or a enclave of magickers. Sadly, we've got a very limited playerbase (until you teach your children and their friends) to fill a wide spectrum of roles and areas. And how those roles are filled can and does have a potentially significant impact on the rest of the PC population, especially if those roles are powerful and are not seriously opposed. (tribes, rinth gang, templars, magickers)
Halaster made a very good point about the changes made to magickers, and how it was made with certain assumptions about the then "current" rarity.
Is it that much of a surprise that this seems to be an issue in light of that?
1. More then half the classes available are magicker or psi
2. Karma accumulates over time, and we tend to attract long term players
3. Special apps are allowed
Magicker classes are attractive in that they are something new to explore, and give a very different spectrum of abilities. You have so many to choose from and experience. Additionally with the increase in magicker PC's you have more chance of having like individuals to play, learn, and interact with.
When they were a chore, there tended to be less. Less players to interact with, more of a pain in the ass, less people had access to them and they generally weren't as enticing to play.
The decrease in rarity while as a direct result of the above and us allowing players to pretty much freely play what they want (given the karma) leads to a conflict with the documented rarity, and the game experience as it relates to that for the players.
It's an imperfect science, but I'm glad the discussion is happening, because it's important we learn, both for this version of Arm and the next.
Halaster made a very good point about the changes made to magickers, and how it was made with certain assumptions about the then "current" rarity.
Is it that much of a surprise that this seems to be an issue in light of that?
1. More then half the classes available are magicker or psi
2. Karma accumulates over time, and we tend to attract long term players
3. Special apps are allowed
Magicker classes are attractive in that they are something new to explore, and give a very different spectrum of abilities. You have so many to choose from and experience. Additionally with the increase in magicker PC's you have more chance of having like individuals to play, learn, and interact with.
When they were a chore, there tended to be less. Less players to interact with, more of a pain in the ass, less people had access to them and they generally weren't as enticing to play.
The decrease in rarity while as a direct result of the above and us allowing players to pretty much freely play what they want (given the karma) leads to a conflict with the documented rarity, and the game experience as it relates to that for the players.
It's an imperfect science, but I'm glad the discussion is happening, because it's important we learn, both for this version of Arm and the next.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Tarx on April 04, 2007, 12:12:57 PM
Post by: Tarx on April 04, 2007, 12:12:57 PM
I think Apocalyptic Cow meant to play something (anything) with life in it. Not necessarily a gicker.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Malken on April 04, 2007, 12:13:01 PM
Post by: Malken on April 04, 2007, 12:13:01 PM
I don't think Hymwen is a twink at all, I just think that she represents a huge percentage of our playerbase, someone with plenty of time compared to the ones who only play an hour or two a night which seems like the current magick system was made for.
Let's say you log on, you go to your secret hideout, you cast a few spells.. That takes maybe 20 minutes top.. Then you start heading out, exploring the area around you, maybe find a social spot, interact a little with others... That's maybe an hour of your time, so in your daily playtime, you still have five hours or so to go... So what happens, then? You probably head back to your secret hideout, cast a few more spells, then you walk out again, do a few different things.. But after a while, you certainly go back and cast again, no?
Can the admins really blame you if you play that way? It's not being twinkish, it's just that the system was probably made to help the 'casual' players be able to do more than just cast spells to become powerful enough to survive after a while. So the system probably works GREAT for the few that only gets an hour or so after work a day..
But the problem is that how many players only get to play an hour or two a night compared to the ones with 5+ hours a day? I would say that the 'casual' players on a RPI mud are VERY low...
So two days of playtime and 20 spells on Hymwen's character might seem like A LOT to the guy who only plays two hours a night and which took him maybe 4 RL months to get his character to 5 days, but to the majority of the rest of the playerbase, a two days character might also just be a week RL long character tops.
So again, there's no need to call Hymwen a TWINK, she's just been truthful about it. How many magickers are currently in the game and doing exactly what she's doing but camouflaging it with some semblance of roleplay?
Let's say you log on, you go to your secret hideout, you cast a few spells.. That takes maybe 20 minutes top.. Then you start heading out, exploring the area around you, maybe find a social spot, interact a little with others... That's maybe an hour of your time, so in your daily playtime, you still have five hours or so to go... So what happens, then? You probably head back to your secret hideout, cast a few more spells, then you walk out again, do a few different things.. But after a while, you certainly go back and cast again, no?
Can the admins really blame you if you play that way? It's not being twinkish, it's just that the system was probably made to help the 'casual' players be able to do more than just cast spells to become powerful enough to survive after a while. So the system probably works GREAT for the few that only gets an hour or so after work a day..
But the problem is that how many players only get to play an hour or two a night compared to the ones with 5+ hours a day? I would say that the 'casual' players on a RPI mud are VERY low...
So two days of playtime and 20 spells on Hymwen's character might seem like A LOT to the guy who only plays two hours a night and which took him maybe 4 RL months to get his character to 5 days, but to the majority of the rest of the playerbase, a two days character might also just be a week RL long character tops.
So again, there's no need to call Hymwen a TWINK, she's just been truthful about it. How many magickers are currently in the game and doing exactly what she's doing but camouflaging it with some semblance of roleplay?
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Gimfalisette on April 04, 2007, 12:14:54 PM
Post by: Gimfalisette on April 04, 2007, 12:14:54 PM
Hymwen, thank you for doing that experiment. Obviously you've brought something to light here, and I appreciate that you've been willing to risk being called a "twink" for the sake of illustrating something.
Everyone who's been all over Hymwen's case about this...y'all need to just chill. She's not saying that this is how mages SHOULD be played. She's saying this is how they CAN be played, if someone wants to do so. And she's pointing out that this potentially damages the game, in combination with the great increase in magicker characters.
This is exactly what a lot of us have been trying to say for months now. The sad, honest truth is that it's now harder to find mundane characters to RP with in the city of Tuluk than it is to find magicker characters to RP "with" in the northern wilderness.
I am glad for you that you are getting the RP you want, and I don't mean that sarcastically in the least; I really am glad. But with a weekly player count that is down by 100 from pre-announcement, and the current great increase in number of magicker characters, that also means that magickers in comparison to the rest of the player populace are FAR from rare anymore...and it likewise means that there just aren't enough mundane characters in some areas, such as Tuluk. Tuluk is a ghostland nowadays...like playing in a big, spread-out iso clan with lots of shops. Even on nights when player count is in the 50s or 60s, it's rare to see more than 3 or 4 PCs hanging out anywhere in public in Tuluk.
The game overall is hurting over this issue. The northlands are especially negatively impacted, due to a lot of factors noted by LoD, because it's so attractive to magicker characters and there's been a global shift away from mundanes and toward magickers.
Everyone who's been all over Hymwen's case about this...y'all need to just chill. She's not saying that this is how mages SHOULD be played. She's saying this is how they CAN be played, if someone wants to do so. And she's pointing out that this potentially damages the game, in combination with the great increase in magicker characters.
Quote from: "Halaster"I am all about mages being powerful and having great power, yadda yadda. But I also wish they were rarer than currently being experienced. I guess people are playing them more, and being allowed to play them more, because the End is Nigh. The obvious, unfortunate side effect of this is that it makes them no longer rare and totally throws things out of whack.
This is exactly what a lot of us have been trying to say for months now. The sad, honest truth is that it's now harder to find mundane characters to RP with in the city of Tuluk than it is to find magicker characters to RP "with" in the northern wilderness.
Quote from: "Twilight"That said, I'm really enjoying the current population of mages. This is because until about the last year and a half, every mage I had (and I had more than a few) would meet generally less than five mages in their lifetimes. It never felt like you were actually involved with magick, whereas nowadays you can get into things where you feel like you are.
I am glad for you that you are getting the RP you want, and I don't mean that sarcastically in the least; I really am glad. But with a weekly player count that is down by 100 from pre-announcement, and the current great increase in number of magicker characters, that also means that magickers in comparison to the rest of the player populace are FAR from rare anymore...and it likewise means that there just aren't enough mundane characters in some areas, such as Tuluk. Tuluk is a ghostland nowadays...like playing in a big, spread-out iso clan with lots of shops. Even on nights when player count is in the 50s or 60s, it's rare to see more than 3 or 4 PCs hanging out anywhere in public in Tuluk.
The game overall is hurting over this issue. The northlands are especially negatively impacted, due to a lot of factors noted by LoD, because it's so attractive to magicker characters and there's been a global shift away from mundanes and toward magickers.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LauraMars on April 04, 2007, 12:19:37 PM
Post by: LauraMars on April 04, 2007, 12:19:37 PM
Quote from: "Apocalyptic_Cow"If you've proven the obvious, that powergaming is possible, I'll attest that there is also some fantastic RP going on
That is awesome. There are definitely well played mages and I am glad you are confirming it. The problem is, people weren't believing that this kind of skill progression was possible, however obvious it may have been to you (see a few pages back in the thread) and Hymwen has demonstrated proof of this fact.
QuoteBy making characters with OOC aims, like experimenting, or proving points on the discussion board, you're contributing to the problem.
She's not contributing to the problem, she's contributing data about the magicker template for us to ponder. Why is this bad? Discussion is an exchange of knowledge. Don't hate, assimilate.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Malken on April 04, 2007, 12:30:38 PM
Post by: Malken on April 04, 2007, 12:30:38 PM
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"
This is exactly what a lot of us have been trying to say for months now. The sad, honest truth is that it's now harder to find mundane characters to RP with in the city of Tuluk than it is to find magicker characters to RP "with" in the northern wilderness.
And then, out of the few PCs left there, you have to wonder how many of them are just rogue magickers trying to pass for mundane characters.. :?
At some point, with my previous character there, I was even willing to start accepting the fact that some of his friends might be rogue magickers, because I was really running out of mundane characters to interact with..
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Apocalyptic_Cow on April 04, 2007, 12:37:19 PM
Post by: Apocalyptic_Cow on April 04, 2007, 12:37:19 PM
I'm not hating on, uh, the exchange of knowledge. But why do we need to dive into the mud for this sort of data, making empty characters, especially when we have staff telling us what's up?
It's really not even data...its datum...its anecdotal.
We have staff telling us that mages have been constructed to be able to get their first few steps easier than other classes. Combining that with the notion that if you push for your skills, you can rush any class, don't we already know that in a short period if time, if you wanted, you could do this?
In response to Hymwen, these aren't my friends. It's not a gang of players opposed to other gangs of players. I've been in positions where many characters have come and gone, so it's been a stream of different players, lots, and they've been grand. What troubles me is the "shock factor" of your "experiment". People are going to be even -more- on edge, OOC, when encountering magickers, and that is trouble for people who want to offer a neat scene.
It's really not even data...its datum...its anecdotal.
We have staff telling us that mages have been constructed to be able to get their first few steps easier than other classes. Combining that with the notion that if you push for your skills, you can rush any class, don't we already know that in a short period if time, if you wanted, you could do this?
In response to Hymwen, these aren't my friends. It's not a gang of players opposed to other gangs of players. I've been in positions where many characters have come and gone, so it's been a stream of different players, lots, and they've been grand. What troubles me is the "shock factor" of your "experiment". People are going to be even -more- on edge, OOC, when encountering magickers, and that is trouble for people who want to offer a neat scene.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on April 04, 2007, 12:43:24 PM
Post by: jhunter on April 04, 2007, 12:43:24 PM
I for one, completely agree with everything Forest Junkie said. I think he was right on the nose on -all- counts. LoD never openly spoke out some adamantly against magick in the game until after losing his really long lived warrior to a magickal being in the blink of an eye. I noticed this as well and that's why his arguments against magick hold no salt in my opinion. There are also other factors that I know of ICly (that I'm not going to post on the board here about) that several of the "anti-magicker" people did something very foolish icly and lost their pcs because of it, then jumped on the bandwagon with the magickhaters. Alot of the claims in this thread are false.
I also see no reason to -fuck over- those of us who do not twink out our skills and do unrealistic things with magickers because of a -few- people who might do it. Then it makes it pretty much a given that in order to be successful with a mage you will -have- to twink out skills. I don't want to see it come to that, it would completely ruin any enjoyment of playing them.
I would also like to add: Since this thread popped up I have made an outdoorsman type pc and have yet to encounter a single drop of magick.
I also see no reason to -fuck over- those of us who do not twink out our skills and do unrealistic things with magickers because of a -few- people who might do it. Then it makes it pretty much a given that in order to be successful with a mage you will -have- to twink out skills. I don't want to see it come to that, it would completely ruin any enjoyment of playing them.
I would also like to add: Since this thread popped up I have made an outdoorsman type pc and have yet to encounter a single drop of magick.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Ghost on April 04, 2007, 12:43:49 PM
Post by: Ghost on April 04, 2007, 12:43:49 PM
Quote from: "Apocalyptic_Cow"I'm not hating on, uh, the exchange of knowledge. But why do we need to dive into the mud for this sort of data, making empty characters, especially when we have staff telling us what's up?
More than ten pages ago, I used to be in this thread and give examples of what I have seen/witnessed. And people refused to believe that, saying that I have to play one and see I am wrong.
Apperantly I was right. Apperantly it was that obvious, and refusing it so blantly was disturbing enough that a proof to the point of sticking it into the eye was required. And still we hear "Oh shit I bet you had AI wisdom." 1000 sids say she did not have AI wisdom.
P.S: Hello, I am back in the thread by the way. Not for long though.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Gimfalisette on April 04, 2007, 12:48:07 PM
Post by: Gimfalisette on April 04, 2007, 12:48:07 PM
Quote from: "Malken"Quote from: "Gimfalisette"
This is exactly what a lot of us have been trying to say for months now. The sad, honest truth is that it's now harder to find mundane characters to RP with in the city of Tuluk than it is to find magicker characters to RP "with" in the northern wilderness.
And then, out of the few PCs left there, you have to wonder how many of them are just rogue magickers trying to pass for mundane characters.. :?
At some point, with my previous character there, I was even willing to start accepting the fact that some of his friends might be rogue magickers, because I was really running out of mundane characters to interact with..
Yep, pretty much anymore in Tuluk it goes like this:
-- Meet new character. Yay, this is rare, we only see a couple new people per RL week anymore, cool fun new friend maybe!
-- Look at new character. Uh-oh. Character is dressed all in newbie clothes and has no tattoos. This is a red flag either for "totally new to the MUD and has no idea what they're doing, but read enough of the docs to know that assassins are kewl in Tuluk" or "rogue magicker."
-- Ask new character about their life story. Confirm that they "grew up around here and there and always kind of drifted." Yep, rogue magicker.
-- Decide that if your character likes this new character, we'll just OOCly ignore any hints of magickerness that might come up, even though I've seen it so damn often it's like getting hit with a wooden plank between the eyes.
-- And after all that, probably never see new rogue magicker friend anymore anyways, because they've either died in the wilderness or gone and found some rogue magicker buddies or something.
There is, very honestly, an ennui that is setting in on me over this whole issue. I can neither OOCly nor ICly maintain the belief that magick is rare, nor maintain consistent fear, when my interaction with non-mundane aspects of the gameworld is so constant. (And by constant I mean "at each and every login.") My character probably should have died of fear-adrenaline overload a long time ago, but instead I think we're both just becoming desensitized to it.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Ghost on April 04, 2007, 12:48:21 PM
Post by: Ghost on April 04, 2007, 12:48:21 PM
Quote from: "jhunter"I also see no reason to -fuck over- those of us who do not twink out our skills and do unrealistic things with magickers because of a -few- people who might do it.
Why does it bother you if power seeking/powergaming is not what you do? If the level of power and how easy it is to attain is not a reason for you to play magicker, why do you even care if people are saying they should not attain so much skills/spells/powers in such a short time?
If a 30 day magicker can come up with 30 different ideas of how easily killing my 50 day mundane character, it is fine. But I WISH it would take 30 days of playtime for a magicker to be considered dangerous enough.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Malken on April 04, 2007, 12:51:59 PM
Post by: Malken on April 04, 2007, 12:51:59 PM
Quote from: "Apocalyptic_Cow"I'm not hating on, uh, the exchange of knowledge. But why do we need to dive into the mud for this sort of data, making empty characters, especially when we have staff telling us what's up?
Because the Staff isn't exactly telling us what's up, actually.. At first, the two that were part of this discussion were telling us that everything was working as it should be, but if you read the last five pages, now they are telling us that maybe something is not working as it should and that it might affect the quality of the mud and the way we should see magickers, as per the documentation.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on April 04, 2007, 12:56:38 PM
Post by: jhunter on April 04, 2007, 12:56:38 PM
Quote from: "Ghost"Quote from: "jhunter"I also see no reason to -fuck over- those of us who do not twink out our skills and do unrealistic things with magickers because of a -few- people who might do it.
Why does it bother you if power seeking/powergaming is not what you do? If the level of power and how easy it is to attain is not a reason for you to play magicker, why do you even care if people are saying they should not attain so much skills/spells/powers in such a short time?
If a 30 day magicker can come up with 30 different ideas of how easily killing my 50 day mundane character, it is fine. But I WISH it would take 30 days of playtime for a magicker to be considered dangerous enough.
The problem is that by making progression harder you make it harder to just survive. As a gemmer, you aren't useful to anyone to support yourself until a certain point. As a rogue magicker, you are unable to keep from being killed by the first npc, pc, weather, or whatever else until you reach a certain point.
It's hard enough as it is if you are playing realistically. I don't want to see it become harder just to survive even. Making it harder to become powerful to stop the twinks will also result in making it harder to even survive for those who did not twink out their skills. That's why.
If you want to cut down the time it takes to become truly powerful you need to make them more powerful to begin with in order for them to have a decent chance of survival.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LauraMars on April 04, 2007, 01:03:00 PM
Post by: LauraMars on April 04, 2007, 01:03:00 PM
But everyone is mad at Hymwen for branching 10 spells in 2 days or whatever. You and Forest Junkie are furious about the entire situation, but you want the ability to branch 10 spells in 2 days to remain?
What are you angry about again? I mean I'm really curious.
What are you angry about again? I mean I'm really curious.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Malken on April 04, 2007, 01:06:12 PM
Post by: Malken on April 04, 2007, 01:06:12 PM
Quote from: "jhunter"
The problem is that by making progression harder you make it harder to just survive. As a gemmer, you aren't useful to anyone to support yourself until a certain point. As a rogue magicker, you are unable to keep from being killed by the first npc, pc, weather, or whatever else until you reach a certain point.
That is only true if you are a clueless new guy on his first magicker or so.. The problem is that by making it easier for the few people that are playing a magicker for the first time, it also makes it a hell lot easier for the twenty other characters that are on their 10+ magickers and know exactly where to go, where to find fruits popping out of nowhere every 20 minutes or so, a source of infinite water, where to hide, etc.. It also makes it a lot easier for those who knows exactly what to branch and what spells to focus on to get powerful really quickly..
Another problem is that if a magicker dies, he's often going to come back as another magicker, except this time he'll know exactly what spells to go for and which not to waste time on.. So just as more people are getting karma, more people are learning how to play their magickers and what makes them strong and what to avoid..
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on April 04, 2007, 01:08:30 PM
Post by: jhunter on April 04, 2007, 01:08:30 PM
Quote from: "Malken"Quote from: "jhunter"
The problem is that by making progression harder you make it harder to just survive. As a gemmer, you aren't useful to anyone to support yourself until a certain point. As a rogue magicker, you are unable to keep from being killed by the first npc, pc, weather, or whatever else until you reach a certain point.
That is only true if you are a clueless new guy on his first magicker or so.. The problem is that by making it easier for the few people that are playing a magicker for the first time, it also makes it a hell lot easier for the twenty other characters that are on their 10+ magickers and know exactly where to go, where to find fruits popping out of nowhere every 20 minutes or so, a source of infinite water, where to hide, etc.. It also makes it a lot easier for those who knows exactly what to branch and what spells to focus on to get powerful really quickly..
Another problem is that if you a magicker dies, he's often going to come back as another magicker, except this time he'll know exactly what spells to go for and which not to waste time on.. So just as more people are getting karma, more people are learning how to play their magickers and what makes them strong and what to avoid..
False, if you are playing realistically and are not going to the same damned places with every pc and actually making them a different pc this is totally not true. You don't have to be a newbie to magickers for them to be difficult. You just have to stop rewriting the same pc with a few changes. Make an actual character.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: ale six on April 04, 2007, 01:09:58 PM
Post by: ale six on April 04, 2007, 01:09:58 PM
Wait wait wait.
*rereads*
No WAY.
Is someone arguing the environment should be LESS harsh?
BURN THE HERETIC!!!
*rereads*
No WAY.
Quote from: "jhunter"The problem is that by making progression harder you make it harder to just survive.
Is someone arguing the environment should be LESS harsh?
BURN THE HERETIC!!!
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on April 04, 2007, 01:11:11 PM
Post by: jhunter on April 04, 2007, 01:11:11 PM
Quote from: "LauraMars"But everyone is mad at Hymwen for branching 10 spells in 2 days or whatever. You and Forest Junkie are furious about the entire situation, but you want the ability to branch 10 spells in 2 days to remain?
What are you angry about again? I mean I'm really curious.
Because I don't do it. I don't want to see it made harder to progress and go back to the days of every mage being forced to hide out from the public LONGER to keep the first newbie warrior with no concept that he shoud FEAR magick from killing my pc.
All this is going to accomplish (to prevent the -possibility- of a -few- people from doing it) is force those who aren't doing it to hide out LONGER and create LESS interaction with the end result being EXACTLY THE SAME.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: jhunter on April 04, 2007, 01:11:55 PM
Post by: jhunter on April 04, 2007, 01:11:55 PM
Quote from: "ale six"Wait wait wait.
*rereads*
No WAY.QuoteThe problem is that by making progression harder you make it harder to just survive.
Is someone arguing the environment should be LESS harsh?
BURN THE HERETIC!!!
No, I'm arguing that it's fine as it is. I never said make it LESS harsh than it -currently- is. It doesn't need to be made more difficult (for the rest of us) because the problem isn't as bad as some people are making it out to be, influenced by their own personal biases.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Ghost on April 04, 2007, 01:17:50 PM
Post by: Ghost on April 04, 2007, 01:17:50 PM
Quote from: "jhunter"The problem is that by making progression harder you make it harder to just survive. As a gemmer, you aren't useful to anyone to support yourself until a certain point. As a rogue magicker, you are unable to keep from being killed by the first npc, pc, weather, or whatever else until you reach a certain point.
I can name three magicker types that can sustain themselves (in terms of nourishment) right out of the box. Another two more, I can name for avoiding danger again right out of the box. Is it risky? Yes. So is for every other ranger/merchant/warrior...etc character. If you are living in the wastes, risk is what you are taking anyway.
Aside from all these, there are so easy ways to earn coins to survive, it is not even funny. All it takes is, for you to be secret at what you do, and keep making coins, buying food/water if you are in the wastes. So it is not impossible. It is realistic in the way of considering it highly dangerous to survive Zalanthan wastes. Code should not be tweaked for any type of character to make it easier for them.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Malken on April 04, 2007, 01:21:45 PM
Post by: Malken on April 04, 2007, 01:21:45 PM
Quote from: "jhunter"
False, if you are playing realistically and are not going to the same damned places with every pc and actually making them a different pc this is totally not true. You don't have to be a newbie to magickers for them to be difficult. You just have to stop rewriting the same pc with a few changes. Make an actual character.
If a majority of the magickers were played realistically and never went back to the same spots they always go to, then we wouldn't be having this discussion to begin with. And if it was realistic by the documentation, that magickers are RARE, that'd solve another problem.
But to be fair, I'm also going to admit that the current world, ROOM wise, is rather small. There's just so many places a rogue magicker can go to.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: ale six on April 04, 2007, 01:23:26 PM
Post by: ale six on April 04, 2007, 01:23:26 PM
Okay, to add something serious:
It isn't just Tuluk. I've been playing a southern PC who has been responsible for hiring a fair number of aides and nonmilitary employees over a long period of time. From what I noticed, since the announcement, we actually had an increase in the number of people who wanted jobs, but in every single case but one or two (just from what I was aware of), all of these PCs were mages or mindbenders just trying to avoid notice.
And to be fair, they were all REALLY GOOD players and enjoyable to RP with, and I don't think any of them were twinking at all. But it got to the point where whenever I or somebody else prominent I knew hired a new PC as an "aide", my cynical OOC side was starting to say "Gee, I wonder what kind of mage this one is."
I could go on about yearning for the good ol' days when the big sekrits were "I'm a kleptomaniac" or "I'm an assassin, can you buy me a dagger?" rather than "I'm a mage", but I just wanted to further emphasize the point that magick is really not so rare anymore. It almost feels like it's getting to the point where the rare people are the ones who aren't.
Quote from: "Gimf"This is exactly what a lot of us have been trying to say for months now. The sad, honest truth is that it's now harder to find mundane characters to RP with in the city of Tuluk than it is to find magicker characters to RP "with" in the northern wilderness.
It isn't just Tuluk. I've been playing a southern PC who has been responsible for hiring a fair number of aides and nonmilitary employees over a long period of time. From what I noticed, since the announcement, we actually had an increase in the number of people who wanted jobs, but in every single case but one or two (just from what I was aware of), all of these PCs were mages or mindbenders just trying to avoid notice.
And to be fair, they were all REALLY GOOD players and enjoyable to RP with, and I don't think any of them were twinking at all. But it got to the point where whenever I or somebody else prominent I knew hired a new PC as an "aide", my cynical OOC side was starting to say "Gee, I wonder what kind of mage this one is."
I could go on about yearning for the good ol' days when the big sekrits were "I'm a kleptomaniac" or "I'm an assassin, can you buy me a dagger?" rather than "I'm a mage", but I just wanted to further emphasize the point that magick is really not so rare anymore. It almost feels like it's getting to the point where the rare people are the ones who aren't.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Gimfalisette on April 04, 2007, 01:26:28 PM
Post by: Gimfalisette on April 04, 2007, 01:26:28 PM
Quote from: "jhunter"...several of the "anti-magicker" people did something very foolish icly and lost their pcs because of it, then jumped on the bandwagon with the magickhaters.
I have never lost a PC to a magicker. I have only been in one combat situation against a magicker, though I have also been "attacked" in various non-combat ways on many many occasions. The one time that I did knowingly/willingly enter combat against a magicker, I would have totally accepted dying as my own damn fault, because it would have been.
I do not "hate" magick per se.
What I hate is that the current non-rarity of magick in the game is in direct conflict with the documentation.
I hate that there's been such a drain away from mundane characters in the game, to the point where it's hard to get mundane interaction.
I hate feeling blasé about magick and psionics.
I hate that this feeling comes from the fact that all of my mundane characters have had significant levels of interaction with non-mundane elements of the game, interaction that has only increased in the last few months. I have not had a choice as to whether magick is "rare" to my characters.
I hate that every large plot now revolves around magick, or has magick as an integral component of it.
I hate that my assumption about every new northlands character I meet is that he/she is a rogue magicker. I'm not kidding about that, that's always my first thought now, both ICly and OOCly. And it's not just me thinking it, either; I know that other characters are having the same thoughts, because it's so common now that it's all over our conversations.
I hate feeling like playing a mundane character is mostly pointless, because anything I can do in terms of plot-advancing skills, a non-mundane can do better. By "plot-advancing skills" I mean things like assassinations, spying, PC vs PC combat, travel, etc.; not things like general hunting or crafting.
I have nothing "against" the characters or players of non-mundanes in general. I don't think MOST of them are twinks, though some of them certainly are. In fact, I have roleplayed with some non-mundanes that I think have done an amazing job.
But I still think the game is suffering due to far too many non-mundanes (in proportion to the total PC population) right now.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Nao on April 04, 2007, 01:28:14 PM
Post by: Nao on April 04, 2007, 01:28:14 PM
A suggestion, if people branching in two days is really the main problem: Put a timer on how fast skills can increase. If you increased a skill recently, x amount of time has to pass before it can go up again. If a timer like that is already in place, increase the time a bit.
Adjust the timer so that it takes a reasonable minimum time to branch.
This would hinder someone that spam-casts with very little time in between practiced spells, because the timer prevents the skill from going up for a certain amount of time no matter how much they're casting.
But it would not change the rate at all for someone that keeps casting to a reasonable frequency, since the timer wears off while they're sitting around chatting with a friend or otherwise doing non-magickal things, thus not changing things at all for someone that's not spam-casting.
On the other hand, does it really matter how much time played the guy that just killed you for no reason or otherwise misbehaved has on their hands? There's no way for me to see their time played, but I'm going to be pissed about it nonetheless.
Adjust the timer so that it takes a reasonable minimum time to branch.
This would hinder someone that spam-casts with very little time in between practiced spells, because the timer prevents the skill from going up for a certain amount of time no matter how much they're casting.
But it would not change the rate at all for someone that keeps casting to a reasonable frequency, since the timer wears off while they're sitting around chatting with a friend or otherwise doing non-magickal things, thus not changing things at all for someone that's not spam-casting.
On the other hand, does it really matter how much time played the guy that just killed you for no reason or otherwise misbehaved has on their hands? There's no way for me to see their time played, but I'm going to be pissed about it nonetheless.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit on April 04, 2007, 01:28:44 PM
Post by: FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit on April 04, 2007, 01:28:44 PM
LauraMars wrote:
However, whether or not I or any one else agrees with what Hymwen did has very little relevance to this discussion.
QuoteBut everyone is mad at Hymwen for branching 10 spells in 2 days or whatever.No, I think the reason some people are upset with Hymwen is because she created a mage-type that she had no intention of playing as an actual living, breathing character. She implied that she planned to store the character anyway, and was creating it just to prove a point. Personally, I think this goes against the very spirit of the game.
However, whether or not I or any one else agrees with what Hymwen did has very little relevance to this discussion.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: ale six on April 04, 2007, 01:30:09 PM
Post by: ale six on April 04, 2007, 01:30:09 PM
Quote from: "jhunter"Quote from: "ale six"Is someone arguing the environment should be LESS harsh?No, I'm arguing that it's fine as it is. I never said make it LESS harsh than it -currently- is. It doesn't need to be made more difficult (for the rest of us) because the problem isn't as bad as some people are making it out to be, influenced by their own personal biases.
Everyone has their own personal bias here, jhunter. You're definitely not innocent of that. It seems like your argument is, "If we make it harder for mages to progress in skill, it will be harder for mages to survive out in the deserts than it is now."
To me, that doesn't seem like a bad thing at all. In fact it sounds like a really good thing. If nothing else it will put a little more risk vs. the reward of being a mage with a whole bunch of spells and lots of power. Maybe it will even encourage people to come back and play in the cities, where it's safe, because, y'know, that's how the docs say life is supposed to be.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Hymwen on April 04, 2007, 01:32:26 PM
Post by: Hymwen on April 04, 2007, 01:32:26 PM
In my defense, I never initiated interaction with that character, and mostly went out of my way to avoid in so as to not cause problems due to storing early. I don't see how it's such a big deal - plenty of people make throwaway characters, plenty of characters die really early due to mistakes and so on. In the few PC to PC encounters I had, I did roleplay fully and as much as I would have with any of my other characters. I didn't reduce the quality of the game by making this experiment. I was attempting to do the opposite.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: X_Scars on April 04, 2007, 01:37:01 PM
Post by: X_Scars on April 04, 2007, 01:37:01 PM
Heh, only read the last post in this entire thread, but if anything, if you were to make it more difficult for magickers to get spells, then make sure every skill that a magicker gets is actually usuable in a reasonable way on a near regular basis, unless it's a spell of Doom.
There's a few spells that the only reason you might want to cast the spell is to branch it...and I find that a completely silly way to branch spells.
Not saying there shouldn't be those silly spells and cantrips (as some are actually pretty fun), but don't have it so you need to cast it to get anything from them.
In an ideal Armageddon world, I think magickers would be able to naturally learn and branch spells without having to sit down in a hole and cast all day, throwing in a few emotes and thinks once and a while, and expect to become better. Spells should be used practically and under situations that allows characters to grow in experience, rather than sitting down and casting, casting, casting.
There's a few spells that the only reason you might want to cast the spell is to branch it...and I find that a completely silly way to branch spells.
Not saying there shouldn't be those silly spells and cantrips (as some are actually pretty fun), but don't have it so you need to cast it to get anything from them.
In an ideal Armageddon world, I think magickers would be able to naturally learn and branch spells without having to sit down in a hole and cast all day, throwing in a few emotes and thinks once and a while, and expect to become better. Spells should be used practically and under situations that allows characters to grow in experience, rather than sitting down and casting, casting, casting.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LoD on April 04, 2007, 01:41:53 PM
Post by: LoD on April 04, 2007, 01:41:53 PM
Quote from: "jhunter"LoD never openly spoke out some adamantly against magick in the game until after losing his really long lived warrior to a magickal being in the blink of an eye. I noticed this as well and that's why his arguments against magick hold no salt in my opinion.
Why don't we clear this silly arguement up right here:
I lost a long lived warrior to a magickal being in March, 2004. My next post that had anything to do with magick was made in July, 2005 as a response to someone asking about the deaths of long-lived characters.
If I were jaded at losing a long lived character, don't you think I would've posted something in the next 14 months on the subject?
The first thread -I- started on magickal beings is Magick - Power and Place in Armageddon. This was posted on July, 2006, which was 26 months after the death of my "long lived warrior". One would assume that if I were jaded against the death of my character, I must obviously address those issues in the post?
Hrmmm, it seems to argue that I've felt magickers have been done a disservice since the destruction of Tuluk, and that the displacement of these magickers have had a negative impact on the perception of magick by the mundane populace. You know, I might have just been biding my time and waiting for the right moment to speak over those 26 months.
Except that I participated in 185 threads and started 9 of them over those 26 months, and none of the threads I started were on the subject of magick in Armageddon.
So, either I patiently waited and bided my time to express my anger over the loss of one character for 26 months and have since let that frustration affect every post I've ever made on the subject...
or...
...there's an actual issue to be addressed.
I think the fact that several other players, exlcuding myself, have an opinion on the matter that seems very close to my own would indicate that there's more at play here than what you perceive as my "jaded" past. There are very real and apparent issues with magickers and gameplay, and I'm sorry you disagree.
However, several people do agree. I'm afraid you'll just have to argue the facts with me next time, as exaggeration and assumption simply don't get the job done. There are problems with magickers and the gameworld. Other people feel it. Other people recognize it. And it's important for these discussions to happen so that the next iteration can benefit from past mistakes.
-LoD
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Dalmeth on April 04, 2007, 01:44:15 PM
Post by: Dalmeth on April 04, 2007, 01:44:15 PM
Quote from: "jhunter"As a gemmer, you aren't useful to anyone to support yourself until a certain point. As a rogue magicker, you are unable to keep from being killed by the first npc, pc, weather, or whatever else until you reach a certain point.
It's hard enough as it is if you are playing realistically. I don't want to see it become harder just to survive even.
I'm sorry, but this comment just pissed me off something royal. Jhunter, I'm assuming you've played a ranger before, so I'm pretty sure you remember just how !^$&ing hard it is to get one up to the point where it can weather all the dangers of the wilderness. Even then, a ranger's best tactic is hopping onto his mount and praying to whatever cruel gods that preside over Zalanthas that the animal has enough stamina left to get him to safety.
Still, everything out-rangers a human ranger. It seems every last elf and definitely all the gith NPCs can get better hiding skills along with being completely independent of a mount, which actually makes those hiding skills worthwhile. Not to mention there's still that bug where if you start running on a mount, you have to dismount and set your character to walking speed so your mount won't keep running. If you're being chased by a hunter-killer NPC, that's time you can't really afford to waste. Warriors of any race quickly outclass all rangers in the area of weapons combat. That archery ability doesn't help much, as not only do advanced warriors gain defenses against arrows, but the weapon switching delay, which includes taking an arrow in hand, makes a quick draw rather impossible. So if anything pins down a ranger or his mount quits on him before he can get to safety, he's dead.
Because of a ranger's jack-of-all trades nature, they fall under almost any serious pressure. At best, they just get by more easily than any other class.
Yet before the announcement, despite all these disadvantages, rangers were the most popularly played class, according to the staff. So why are you complaining about the difficulty of survival when rangers have it so tough already? Maybe you should start picking better subclasses with basic survival in mind.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Gimfalisette on April 04, 2007, 01:53:12 PM
Post by: Gimfalisette on April 04, 2007, 01:53:12 PM
Quote from: "ale six"It isn't just Tuluk. I've been playing a southern PC who has been responsible for hiring a fair number of aides and nonmilitary employees over a long period of time. From what I noticed, since the announcement, we actually had an increase in the number of people who wanted jobs, but in every single case but one or two (just from what I was aware of), all of these PCs were mages or mindbenders just trying to avoid notice.
So much for my plans for moving to Allanak in a desperate bid to get mundane interaction!
The whole issue is just very disappointing to me. I feel like I'm consistently being forced to play my character in conflict with the documentation. There's only so often that you can find out yet another friend is a sekret mage without starting to edge toward that dark place of, "yeah I guess mages aren't so bad after all..." Especially when, OOCly, I would really rather not solo-RP for the rest of my PC's life.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: ale six on April 04, 2007, 01:57:12 PM
Post by: ale six on April 04, 2007, 01:57:12 PM
I didn't mean to make it sound that bad. In Allanak, the hidden mages are probably more hidden than in Tuluk, because they can't just go frolic out in the grasslands. There's also, ironically, less saturation because some people playing southern mages are gemmed, and the gemmers tend to isolate themselves a bit.
But it's hard to deny the game is less mage-centric than it was a year ago in any form. That's what makes me sad.
But it's hard to deny the game is less mage-centric than it was a year ago in any form. That's what makes me sad.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Marauder Moe on April 04, 2007, 02:08:33 PM
Post by: Marauder Moe on April 04, 2007, 02:08:33 PM
I wouldn't be suprised if there were just as many mages in Tuluk as there are in Allanak. I mean, that would make sense, except for possibly that they have an easier time breeding in Allanak.
I'm sure there are far fewer secret mages in Allanak, though, because probably 80-90% of them get gemmed in the first two weeks of playing (which is a shame, because coming out after playing a long time can be so much fun if you're not in a position where it gets you killed). And, as Ale Six said, the gemmed do tend to be more seperated from the rest of the population.
Fortunately, Arm Reborn seems to have a lot of great stuff to encourage mundane gameplay: a new world to explore, player-malleable economy, caravans, and probably more we don't even know about. I still agree with Halaster that the karma system needs to stay, though.
I'm sure there are far fewer secret mages in Allanak, though, because probably 80-90% of them get gemmed in the first two weeks of playing (which is a shame, because coming out after playing a long time can be so much fun if you're not in a position where it gets you killed). And, as Ale Six said, the gemmed do tend to be more seperated from the rest of the population.
Fortunately, Arm Reborn seems to have a lot of great stuff to encourage mundane gameplay: a new world to explore, player-malleable economy, caravans, and probably more we don't even know about. I still agree with Halaster that the karma system needs to stay, though.
Title: Yeah
Post by: Dakkon Black on April 04, 2007, 02:20:46 PM
Post by: Dakkon Black on April 04, 2007, 02:20:46 PM
the karma system needs to stay
And I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of cap. I don't like the SOI system of LOOSING your karma because I don't want to feel like I am loosing trust. However I would like to see something like a Karma a month regenerates.
Blow 8 Karma on a Sorc. Wait 8 Months to get it back. Etc.
And I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of cap. I don't like the SOI system of LOOSING your karma because I don't want to feel like I am loosing trust. However I would like to see something like a Karma a month regenerates.
Blow 8 Karma on a Sorc. Wait 8 Months to get it back. Etc.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Nao on April 04, 2007, 03:05:27 PM
Post by: Nao on April 04, 2007, 03:05:27 PM
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"
The whole issue is just very disappointing to me. I feel like I'm consistently being forced to play my character in conflict with the documentation. There's only so often that you can find out yet another friend is a sekret mage without starting to edge toward that dark place of, "yeah I guess mages aren't so bad after all..." Especially when, OOCly, I would really rather not solo-RP for the rest of my PC's life.
Why not play it like that, then? Sure, they've been brought up to it, but if an experience that doesn't match what you're expecting repeats itself, eventually you're going to change your expectations and your attitude. It's only natural.
How often have you met that kind of person that keeps complaining about foreigners/chinese/muslims/(insert minority of your choice here), but has that friend that he obviously likes, even though they're part of that minority?
Also, every time in history that there's been a 'shunned' minority, there were also been 'normal' people being friendly with them, having affairs or helping them out. Despite of the lifetime of prejudice that they've faced before that.
This is a major safety issue on earth, by the way, when people notice that something supposedly dangerous doesn't kill them right away, often they'll start treating it as something harmless, no matter the actual risk involved.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Malken on April 04, 2007, 03:21:51 PM
Post by: Malken on April 04, 2007, 03:21:51 PM
If we all start becoming buddies with magickers because they are the only PCs left to interact with in a city like Tuluk, then we might just as well throw the whole documentation by the window, no?
The more magickers feel accepted by society, the less they'll be hunted on sight, and the more our mundane characters will be seen as 'traitors' by the powerups that run the city, aka, Templars, if we start softening up to them..
And on top of that, the more PLAYERS playing the magickers feel accepted by society, the more they'll feel like creating rogue ones in Tuluk isn't such a bad idea after all because they'll be 'accepted' by a few and then we'll just have more of them and it'll only serve to amplify the current problem, no?
The more magickers feel accepted by society, the less they'll be hunted on sight, and the more our mundane characters will be seen as 'traitors' by the powerups that run the city, aka, Templars, if we start softening up to them..
And on top of that, the more PLAYERS playing the magickers feel accepted by society, the more they'll feel like creating rogue ones in Tuluk isn't such a bad idea after all because they'll be 'accepted' by a few and then we'll just have more of them and it'll only serve to amplify the current problem, no?
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Ghost on April 04, 2007, 03:30:41 PM
Post by: Ghost on April 04, 2007, 03:30:41 PM
In a valley where thousand people lives, if one person has gun and everyone else just teeth and nails, that person is godlike.
If five people have guns, they are the drivers of the population.
If 300 people have guns, and 700 do not, it does not make guns special anymore. It makes wielders of the teeth and nail insignificant, and the gun bringing not awe or fear anymore.
Seeing magick once may invoke all kinds of fear and awe. Seeing it for the tenth times, does not. Learning someone is a secret mage for the first time will bring surprise, learning it for the tenth time will bring boredom.
A character of mine had this talk once when talking to a magicker: "Before you, I have worked with two nilazis, two drovians, two elkrans, four whirans, two krathi, two rukkian and one vivaduan." This is the list of people I worked with, not the magickers I met. The number of sorcerers I met was more than any single one of the elementalist type listed.
All these people, I worked was within two IG years. I was not living in a place called "Mage's den" nor was I nearby the Fountain of Mana, nor was I sitting on The Sorcerer's Stone to actually meet that many mages. That character's first reaction to seeing a visible magick in play, was to run away till there is no more space to run. Second time, he only showed his discomfort but stayed in place. For the tenth time he showed his discomfort, and refused any magickal help that was offered all the while trying not to sound offending. When it was hundreth time, he accepted the help, and by that time he knew, and heard and talked with so many mages, magick was just bread and butter.
I could give up all my karma and my probably favorite (or the second favorite) character, if the number of magickers in the game would be 5% of the active PC population. For that, there can be a number of ways to do: Pick one of the suggestions Rindan made (Awakening, or staff putting a quota on how many mages and distributing the options randomly etc..) or make it special app only, or make the karma regenerate (but one point at two months sound better to me really).
Or make it more challenging for the mages. Multiply the skill timers of mages by ten.
If five people have guns, they are the drivers of the population.
If 300 people have guns, and 700 do not, it does not make guns special anymore. It makes wielders of the teeth and nail insignificant, and the gun bringing not awe or fear anymore.
Seeing magick once may invoke all kinds of fear and awe. Seeing it for the tenth times, does not. Learning someone is a secret mage for the first time will bring surprise, learning it for the tenth time will bring boredom.
A character of mine had this talk once when talking to a magicker: "Before you, I have worked with two nilazis, two drovians, two elkrans, four whirans, two krathi, two rukkian and one vivaduan." This is the list of people I worked with, not the magickers I met. The number of sorcerers I met was more than any single one of the elementalist type listed.
All these people, I worked was within two IG years. I was not living in a place called "Mage's den" nor was I nearby the Fountain of Mana, nor was I sitting on The Sorcerer's Stone to actually meet that many mages. That character's first reaction to seeing a visible magick in play, was to run away till there is no more space to run. Second time, he only showed his discomfort but stayed in place. For the tenth time he showed his discomfort, and refused any magickal help that was offered all the while trying not to sound offending. When it was hundreth time, he accepted the help, and by that time he knew, and heard and talked with so many mages, magick was just bread and butter.
I could give up all my karma and my probably favorite (or the second favorite) character, if the number of magickers in the game would be 5% of the active PC population. For that, there can be a number of ways to do: Pick one of the suggestions Rindan made (Awakening, or staff putting a quota on how many mages and distributing the options randomly etc..) or make it special app only, or make the karma regenerate (but one point at two months sound better to me really).
Or make it more challenging for the mages. Multiply the skill timers of mages by ten.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Malken on April 04, 2007, 03:38:56 PM
Post by: Malken on April 04, 2007, 03:38:56 PM
I think that karma re-generation is a very fair compromise..
Jhunter and all, what is it that you have against karma re-generation? We could make it short enough that it would only take about a mundane average lifespan to get it back... So let's say you get yourself a Whiran, that's what, four karma? So, for the first day of playtime you have on him, if you die, you wouldn't lose any of your karma..
But if and when you die, you go back to 0 karma, and slowly, let's say, a karma every 2 weeks? You start regaining them that way.. So to get it back to enough karma to play a Whiran, you'd only have to wait 2 months, which give you plenty of time to play a mundane character or two in the meantime, just to keep the game in balance...
And if you REALLY just enjoy the game when you only get to play magickers, you could even use the special apps to be able to play another magicker, if you were desperate enough and really hated any other choices, but at least this way the admin in charge of special apps would be able to see if there's too many of a type of magickers currently in game to allow you to play that type while you wait for your karma to return..
Is that really asking too much?
Jhunter and all, what is it that you have against karma re-generation? We could make it short enough that it would only take about a mundane average lifespan to get it back... So let's say you get yourself a Whiran, that's what, four karma? So, for the first day of playtime you have on him, if you die, you wouldn't lose any of your karma..
But if and when you die, you go back to 0 karma, and slowly, let's say, a karma every 2 weeks? You start regaining them that way.. So to get it back to enough karma to play a Whiran, you'd only have to wait 2 months, which give you plenty of time to play a mundane character or two in the meantime, just to keep the game in balance...
And if you REALLY just enjoy the game when you only get to play magickers, you could even use the special apps to be able to play another magicker, if you were desperate enough and really hated any other choices, but at least this way the admin in charge of special apps would be able to see if there's too many of a type of magickers currently in game to allow you to play that type while you wait for your karma to return..
Is that really asking too much?
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Gimfalisette on April 04, 2007, 03:44:22 PM
Post by: Gimfalisette on April 04, 2007, 03:44:22 PM
Quote from: "Nao"Quote from: "Gimfalisette"
The whole issue is just very disappointing to me. I feel like I'm consistently being forced to play my character in conflict with the documentation. There's only so often that you can find out yet another friend is a sekret mage without starting to edge toward that dark place of, "yeah I guess mages aren't so bad after all..." Especially when, OOCly, I would really rather not solo-RP for the rest of my PC's life.
Why not play it like that, then? Sure, they've been brought up to it, but if an experience that doesn't match what you're expecting repeats itself, eventually you're going to change your expectations and your attitude. It's only natural.
Quote from: "Malken"If we all start becoming buddies with magickers because they are the only PCs left to interact with in a city like Tuluk, then we might just as well throw the whole documentation by the window, no?
That's my point exactly. The documentatation is already out the window. And I'm not happy about it.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Marauder Moe on April 04, 2007, 03:50:58 PM
Post by: Marauder Moe on April 04, 2007, 03:50:58 PM
I suppose I can't neccesarily speak for all players of gemmed characters, but having everyone be friendly didn't really please me or anything. The abuse is interesting and entertaining. Abuse of the few mundane friends or lovers my character did have was immensely interesting and entertaining. I don't really think you're doing a gemmed character's player a favor by ignoring what they are and acting friendly.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Nao on April 04, 2007, 04:12:38 PM
Post by: Nao on April 04, 2007, 04:12:38 PM
Quote from: "Malken"If we all start becoming buddies with magickers because they are the only PCs left to interact with in a city like Tuluk, then we might just as well throw the whole documentation by the window, no?
No. The docs tell you what you're most likely to start out with, which is magick-hating. This might increase because of IC events, or decrease gradually with time because you've run into the hundredth magicker now and you're still alive and kicking, even though you've been told that you'll get sick from looking at one.
If you feel that your character is getting used to things, it's probably a good time to LET them get used to things. It's called character development with time.
Yea, your usual zalanthian human is scared shitless of nobles and magickers. But your average PC might get used to it because they're much more likely to run into a magicker or a noble on a regular basis. Or they might turn the other way, but there's no point sticking to exactly the same attitude for years, no matter what happens. If a magicker kills your lover, you'll hate them even more, if your best buddy that you've known since you were three turns out to be a magicker, you -might- hate them a ittle less. It's called character development.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Nao on April 04, 2007, 04:23:42 PM
Post by: Nao on April 04, 2007, 04:23:42 PM
Wait a moment.
I'm NOT saying that anyone should be friendly with magickers all out the sudden.
I'm saying that you don't have to continue the abuse no matter the circumstances, especially when it just doesn't seem to make sense anymore.
Fear decreases when you see constant exposure, but nothing happening as a result.
And your char might find it hard to suddenly start hating an old friend no matter what they are or what they've done, I know I do. They also might feel betrayed, there's several possibilities.
I'm NOT saying that anyone should be friendly with magickers all out the sudden.
I'm saying that you don't have to continue the abuse no matter the circumstances, especially when it just doesn't seem to make sense anymore.
Fear decreases when you see constant exposure, but nothing happening as a result.
And your char might find it hard to suddenly start hating an old friend no matter what they are or what they've done, I know I do. They also might feel betrayed, there's several possibilities.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Shoka Windrunner on April 04, 2007, 05:17:05 PM
Post by: Shoka Windrunner on April 04, 2007, 05:17:05 PM
Hold up.
I haven't finished reading the explosion of posts here but let me interject something.
I did NOT call Hymwen a twink. I said she proved simply that yeah someone can do it.
I still believe you get two idjits together who want to twink and spar rest all day you will have a similar result. Anyone want to test that out?
The problem is not the number of skills...comparing spells to a warriors skills is silly. Hell a warrior or ranger start out with quite a few more skills than a magicker. Magicker gets six. Plus sub class. Warrior ranger? I don't know off the top of my head. But more than six. A Warrior probably gets at least 6 combat skills. To make it similar it would be like warriors starting with skill dagger, then branch to skill longknife and then on to skill half sword and then on to skill scimitar...get the idea?
We want to do that with mundanes and they can branch just as fast as magickers go for it.
Let me squash this right now. Unless you have lower than average HP there aren't any spells that can one shot you. If there are I've never seen them, never had them, and most likely would require a mon component of such rarity you would weep if you ever had to use it, since you would be waiting RL weeks trying to get another. It is a myth. There is no one shot spell I can even think of, unless like I stated, you have lower than average HP, then maybe.
I like playing a magicker, LOVE it actually. Especially now, since most of my memories date back to the days of being forced into being a twink just to get one spell to actually fucking go off. I think it took me 2 and a half days of play time to get 1 spell to mon, and then it still only worked like half the time.
Yes that isn't the point that some of you are trying to make. But some of you are saying then need to be regressed to some form of this. Yeah they'd be rare. Practically non existent. Like they were once upon a time. But regardless, it seemed that all those magickers back then teamed up, and if someone did fuck with them, they wouldn't live long. Why? I played that character for 3 RL fucking years. I mastered 4 spells. I didn't want to have to try to do it again. I was still a bitch ass.
Now they've been given teeth, I'll admit teeth that in some cases are 2 foot long and super pointy. But at least they are playable without being forced into having to resort to spam casting away.
I'll agree with LoD on one thing, magickers need a place in Armageddon MUD. A way to interact with mundanes. Currently that place is as a gemmer. You can at least be one, and not have to be super secret James Bond about it. You can play a magicker and it has opened up roles for them that haven't existed since way back when people ignored the docs and would actually befriend and hire them. It made it a better place for everyone I felt.
Actually two things LoD. They maybe do need to be policed some. But can you blame people for wanting to try something new before they won't be able to? Yeah the End is a long way off, again. But it wasn't that far off that long ago. Was June, now September. So yeah, the mad rush is still in crazy effect to play everything you haven't. Some people are going to twink it. That's because they are taught to do so from playing warriors and rangers in many of the clans. I'm not saying those clans are wrong, but you spar and spar and spar and spar and spar. So they get a magicker and they cast and cast and cast and cast and cast, and look at that! I branched...Wow! So they cast and cast and cast...wondering what's next. Many people can't control their curiosity, or their thrill at playing something so vastly different than what they have before. I think skill wise, mundane characters need a tweak as much as Magickers. That experience with Shoka burnt me out on playing a character, who is unable to do what their class states they should be able to do, without practicing skills all the time. I'd rather be decent in skills at the get go, and be able to do what I'm supposed to do without doing the sparring, casting, practicing, foraging, crafting that you have to do otherwise. I, and this is my personal feelings, fucking hate that. I don't like sparring, cause I've never seen it done in a fashion that didn't make me feel like it was directed, completely at building skills, and thus seemed fake and phony. My opinion, everyone elses will differ I'm sure.
I think that it's perfectly reasonable that magickers should run around with sparkles and flames and invisible and cloaked in shadow or whatever they cast on themselves. Hell, I don't want anyone to know who I am? Don't want to have to worry about someone trying to kill you? Easiest way to do that is pull your hood up and walk around on fire. Who in their right mind would even approach them? No one. Sounds logical to me. It's dangerous out there, let's just scare everyone off ahead of time. Do I agree they should do it while leaning against the gates of 'Nak? No. So yeah, you still need to be careful with what you do. But running around in the desert, well just leave me be if I'm not causing you trouble and I'll leave you be. How many people here would walk up to a group of ten people, wearing black hooded cloaks with their weapons out in the desert? Only the foolhardy. I don't think it's unreasonable that a magicker could possibly be seen as being just as dangerous.
Maybe there are a lot of magickers in the world. I play one and haven't seen what I would call a tremendous amount of them. Or even evidence of them being around. I think if I had to guess, I've suspected, or have seen no more than maybe ten magickers at most at any given moment.
Even back when I played Shoka there was more than that. Most people just never met them. (I think the reason was that people didn't have as much knowledge of the world back then and didn't have the crafting skills requiring them to go out in the wilderness to that one cave where you can get the pink panther diamonds, which happens to be way away from other centers of civilization and are upset that it is occupied by a magicker.)
So I'm guessing probably twenty magickers in the world. Okay. It's the end of the world. People want to play them. Even if you don't. So deal with it. Other people are having fun to. Not just yourself. Sorry guys. It's not actually about you. It's about whether you are having fun or not. For every individual. And since I don't pay to play this, and don't get payed to play this, I have no obligation to play how, who, and where, someone else would rather I do so.
I'm done with this. Some people are upset at magickers. For whatever reason they have. Whether they are truthful about it on here or not. You have the same feelings of annoyance with a lot of classes. Everyone does at one point in time or another, for a myriad different reasons.
Bottom line is this, there are twinks. They are going to twink. They will continue to twink in any manner possible that they can. Cause it's what they do. It's been stated that twinks are bad by the Imms. If you think someone is twinking send a mail to the mud. Then go on with your life. And if that alleged twink is still around, either the Imms have decided they aren't twinks or they have had a serious talk with an Imm and have hopefully straightened up.
I'm done arguing about magickers. Seriously. I hear many of you state something must change, but I've not heard anything that doesn't either impede on someone else's fun in some way, or that hasn't been proven to not work well in the past. I've already posted my ideas for solutions to this 'problem' in previous posts. Look them up if you want.
I haven't finished reading the explosion of posts here but let me interject something.
I did NOT call Hymwen a twink. I said she proved simply that yeah someone can do it.
I still believe you get two idjits together who want to twink and spar rest all day you will have a similar result. Anyone want to test that out?
The problem is not the number of skills...comparing spells to a warriors skills is silly. Hell a warrior or ranger start out with quite a few more skills than a magicker. Magicker gets six. Plus sub class. Warrior ranger? I don't know off the top of my head. But more than six. A Warrior probably gets at least 6 combat skills. To make it similar it would be like warriors starting with skill dagger, then branch to skill longknife and then on to skill half sword and then on to skill scimitar...get the idea?
We want to do that with mundanes and they can branch just as fast as magickers go for it.
Let me squash this right now. Unless you have lower than average HP there aren't any spells that can one shot you. If there are I've never seen them, never had them, and most likely would require a mon component of such rarity you would weep if you ever had to use it, since you would be waiting RL weeks trying to get another. It is a myth. There is no one shot spell I can even think of, unless like I stated, you have lower than average HP, then maybe.
I like playing a magicker, LOVE it actually. Especially now, since most of my memories date back to the days of being forced into being a twink just to get one spell to actually fucking go off. I think it took me 2 and a half days of play time to get 1 spell to mon, and then it still only worked like half the time.
Yes that isn't the point that some of you are trying to make. But some of you are saying then need to be regressed to some form of this. Yeah they'd be rare. Practically non existent. Like they were once upon a time. But regardless, it seemed that all those magickers back then teamed up, and if someone did fuck with them, they wouldn't live long. Why? I played that character for 3 RL fucking years. I mastered 4 spells. I didn't want to have to try to do it again. I was still a bitch ass.
Now they've been given teeth, I'll admit teeth that in some cases are 2 foot long and super pointy. But at least they are playable without being forced into having to resort to spam casting away.
I'll agree with LoD on one thing, magickers need a place in Armageddon MUD. A way to interact with mundanes. Currently that place is as a gemmer. You can at least be one, and not have to be super secret James Bond about it. You can play a magicker and it has opened up roles for them that haven't existed since way back when people ignored the docs and would actually befriend and hire them. It made it a better place for everyone I felt.
Actually two things LoD. They maybe do need to be policed some. But can you blame people for wanting to try something new before they won't be able to? Yeah the End is a long way off, again. But it wasn't that far off that long ago. Was June, now September. So yeah, the mad rush is still in crazy effect to play everything you haven't. Some people are going to twink it. That's because they are taught to do so from playing warriors and rangers in many of the clans. I'm not saying those clans are wrong, but you spar and spar and spar and spar and spar. So they get a magicker and they cast and cast and cast and cast and cast, and look at that! I branched...Wow! So they cast and cast and cast...wondering what's next. Many people can't control their curiosity, or their thrill at playing something so vastly different than what they have before. I think skill wise, mundane characters need a tweak as much as Magickers. That experience with Shoka burnt me out on playing a character, who is unable to do what their class states they should be able to do, without practicing skills all the time. I'd rather be decent in skills at the get go, and be able to do what I'm supposed to do without doing the sparring, casting, practicing, foraging, crafting that you have to do otherwise. I, and this is my personal feelings, fucking hate that. I don't like sparring, cause I've never seen it done in a fashion that didn't make me feel like it was directed, completely at building skills, and thus seemed fake and phony. My opinion, everyone elses will differ I'm sure.
I think that it's perfectly reasonable that magickers should run around with sparkles and flames and invisible and cloaked in shadow or whatever they cast on themselves. Hell, I don't want anyone to know who I am? Don't want to have to worry about someone trying to kill you? Easiest way to do that is pull your hood up and walk around on fire. Who in their right mind would even approach them? No one. Sounds logical to me. It's dangerous out there, let's just scare everyone off ahead of time. Do I agree they should do it while leaning against the gates of 'Nak? No. So yeah, you still need to be careful with what you do. But running around in the desert, well just leave me be if I'm not causing you trouble and I'll leave you be. How many people here would walk up to a group of ten people, wearing black hooded cloaks with their weapons out in the desert? Only the foolhardy. I don't think it's unreasonable that a magicker could possibly be seen as being just as dangerous.
Maybe there are a lot of magickers in the world. I play one and haven't seen what I would call a tremendous amount of them. Or even evidence of them being around. I think if I had to guess, I've suspected, or have seen no more than maybe ten magickers at most at any given moment.
Even back when I played Shoka there was more than that. Most people just never met them. (I think the reason was that people didn't have as much knowledge of the world back then and didn't have the crafting skills requiring them to go out in the wilderness to that one cave where you can get the pink panther diamonds, which happens to be way away from other centers of civilization and are upset that it is occupied by a magicker.)
So I'm guessing probably twenty magickers in the world. Okay. It's the end of the world. People want to play them. Even if you don't. So deal with it. Other people are having fun to. Not just yourself. Sorry guys. It's not actually about you. It's about whether you are having fun or not. For every individual. And since I don't pay to play this, and don't get payed to play this, I have no obligation to play how, who, and where, someone else would rather I do so.
I'm done with this. Some people are upset at magickers. For whatever reason they have. Whether they are truthful about it on here or not. You have the same feelings of annoyance with a lot of classes. Everyone does at one point in time or another, for a myriad different reasons.
Bottom line is this, there are twinks. They are going to twink. They will continue to twink in any manner possible that they can. Cause it's what they do. It's been stated that twinks are bad by the Imms. If you think someone is twinking send a mail to the mud. Then go on with your life. And if that alleged twink is still around, either the Imms have decided they aren't twinks or they have had a serious talk with an Imm and have hopefully straightened up.
I'm done arguing about magickers. Seriously. I hear many of you state something must change, but I've not heard anything that doesn't either impede on someone else's fun in some way, or that hasn't been proven to not work well in the past. I've already posted my ideas for solutions to this 'problem' in previous posts. Look them up if you want.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Fathi on April 04, 2007, 06:06:39 PM
Post by: Fathi on April 04, 2007, 06:06:39 PM
Quote from: "Shoka Windrunner"
So I'm guessing probably twenty magickers in the world. Okay. It's the end of the world. People want to play them. Even if you don't. So deal with it. Other people are having fun to. Not just yourself. Sorry guys. It's not actually about you. It's about whether you are having fun or not. For every individual. And since I don't pay to play this, and don't get payed to play this, I have no obligation to play how, who, and where, someone else would rather I do so.
Not to nitpick, but pretty much everything you've said can apply to the opposite side of your argument as well.
People who want to play dirty mundane grebbers without having to worry about running into ridiculous amounts of mages out in the desert have no obligation to play how, who, and where -you- would want. They also are under no obligation to roll over and "deal with it" simply because you like an aspect of the game that they don't. The GDB exists so both sides of the discussion can voice their concerns if they think the game's balance is an issue.
I think the fact that this thread is twenty-two pages long says that more than just a handful of the playerbase is worried about the magicker/mundane balance in the game, and a lot of people are worried that it's only going to get worse as the game draws closer to an end.
By answering "deal with it" to a problem like that, you're basically saying that you're all right with alienating a portion of the playerbase that's significant and vocal enough to help propel twenty-two pages of discussion on the GDB.
I've never staffed a MU* personally, but I have run several large-scale roleplaying boards and groups in the past, and from an administrative standpoint, if enough of your players express a concern, it isn't something that should be answered with "deal with it" because there could be a legitimate problem. And if it's a problem big enough to impede your players' satisfaction and immersion and you don't even allow them to discuss it, you risk alienating your playerbase as well as potentially losing them.
And considering the amount of people that have been quitting and/or playing infrequently since Arm 2's announcement, I think it's more than a little irresponsible for players to take up a "deal with it" attitude on an issue that several people in this thread have said is enough to make them want to play less if it worsens.
When players quit, the game suffers.
People aren't trying to impede on your fun if you play a magicker--they're simply addressing what they see as a legitimate concern because it is lessening their enjoyment of the game.
Edit: To clarify, Shoka, I wasn't claiming you said the staff should tell players to deal with it or anything of the like; I was just using my personal experience adminning RP projects as an example. :)
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Malken on April 04, 2007, 06:40:39 PM
Post by: Malken on April 04, 2007, 06:40:39 PM
Quote from: "Shoka Windrunner"
I still believe you get two idjits together who want to twink and spar rest all day you will have a similar result. Anyone want to test that out?
First of all, that requires two people to do your 'comparison', two people are much easier to spot and deal with than one guy hiding in his apartment or secret cave spamming spells once in a while, with a semblance of roleplaying in between to keep the line between obvious twinkery and the basic roleplay required on the mud.
Second, doing so would be near useless, because the stat that dictates how often and how fast you gain in your selected skills is WISDOM, and how many warriors do you know of with anything above average wisdom, compared to the number of magickers you know of with anything LOWER than very good wisdom?
So even if two warriors with average wisdom were to spar all day, that'd be totally useless because their skill progression would probably lock after within two minutes and then remain locked for another hour or so (I'm just pulling numbers out of thin air, here, for the sake of example), but with your magicker with exceptional wisdom, their rate of advancement is MUCH faster due to the stat PLUS its much faster due to the fact that they've made advancing and branching in spells much faster to help out the magickers, so what you've got is a bonus to skills advancement + a bonus to spells progression = Magickers gaining new spells much faster than it's probably supposed to be like.
I hope I'm making sense.. It's no big secret that wisdom is the stat that deals with skills and spells progression, it says so in the help file. So now that you have 90% of the magickers with exceptional wisdom, and a much easier time learning and branching spells, of course it's a recipe for disaster in the long run..
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Naiona on April 04, 2007, 06:46:12 PM
Post by: Naiona on April 04, 2007, 06:46:12 PM
Just to add on to everything that Halaster said earlier: "Ditto".
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Belenos on April 04, 2007, 07:21:52 PM
Post by: Belenos on April 04, 2007, 07:21:52 PM
Much as many people hate to admit this, there is no perfect solution. Different players like to play different things. Some despise magick, and would just assume it not exist anywhere in this gameworld. Others are of the opinion that there are not enough options for the magick user. That by giving them mundane choices, rather than being the lepers of society that would reign in the excesses. Still others want magick to be elusive, rare, and scary.
In the grand scheme of things it is impossible to please everyone. The best we can do is offer choices, so that you can gravitate to the type of play that you enjoy.
Unfortunately many people (not all) posting on this thread do not respect the other person's position. There is a lot of chest thumping, and outright name calling. We encourage people to discus issues, and present ideas, but leave the hostility for the game.
In the grand scheme of things it is impossible to please everyone. The best we can do is offer choices, so that you can gravitate to the type of play that you enjoy.
Unfortunately many people (not all) posting on this thread do not respect the other person's position. There is a lot of chest thumping, and outright name calling. We encourage people to discus issues, and present ideas, but leave the hostility for the game.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Gimfalisette on April 04, 2007, 11:16:29 PM
Post by: Gimfalisette on April 04, 2007, 11:16:29 PM
This is "anecdotal" data, and yet it's like this pretty much every weeknight now in Tuluk:
Count of PCs in Tuluk's three major taverns at 8:15 pm Pacific time, "peak", same time as "who" done above: 0
Time I've spent tavern-idling alone tonight: 20 minutes...about as much as I can stand.
Code Select
who
Immortals
---------
There are 0 visible Immortals currently in the world.
There are 52 players currently in the world, other than yourself.Count of PCs in Tuluk's three major taverns at 8:15 pm Pacific time, "peak", same time as "who" done above: 0
Time I've spent tavern-idling alone tonight: 20 minutes...about as much as I can stand.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Only He Stands There on April 04, 2007, 11:24:05 PM
Post by: Only He Stands There on April 04, 2007, 11:24:05 PM
Nobody tavern-sitting?
Sounds like a great thing to me... it means that people are actually off in their clan halls, doing work, or on missions, or doing business privately, or etc. etc. etc.
Sounds like a great thing to me... it means that people are actually off in their clan halls, doing work, or on missions, or doing business privately, or etc. etc. etc.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Hymwen on April 04, 2007, 11:32:09 PM
Post by: Hymwen on April 04, 2007, 11:32:09 PM
It more likely means that very few players choose to play in that area of the game.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Malken on April 04, 2007, 11:37:42 PM
Post by: Malken on April 04, 2007, 11:37:42 PM
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"This is "anecdotal" data, and yet it's like this pretty much every weeknight now in Tuluk:Code Selectwho
Immortals
---------
There are 0 visible Immortals currently in the world.
There are 52 players currently in the world, other than yourself.
Count of PCs in Tuluk's three major taverns at 8:15 pm Pacific time, "peak", same time as "who" done above: 0
Time I've spent tavern-idling alone tonight: 20 minutes...about as much as I can stand.
I used to think that this was only happening in Tuluk, then I created a PC in Allanak just to see, and during my CST peaktime weeknights, I would often only see the same 2-3 PCs in the tavern sitting there, always going, dammit, I should have stayed in Tuluk, it seems like this Gimf chick is throwing RPTs every week or so, don't tell me that now that I've switched back to Allanak all the players went back to Tuluk?
So if you think it's just a problem in Tuluk, let me tell you that you'll be disappointed if you switch location thinking it's any better on the other side of the playground.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Marauder Moe on April 04, 2007, 11:42:14 PM
Post by: Marauder Moe on April 04, 2007, 11:42:14 PM
Let's blame the Kuraci next.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Jherlen on April 04, 2007, 11:47:58 PM
Post by: Jherlen on April 04, 2007, 11:47:58 PM
Fuck that.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Synthesis on April 04, 2007, 11:48:09 PM
Post by: Synthesis on April 04, 2007, 11:48:09 PM
Considering the world is likely about to end (or be horribly ravaged) in a magickal cataclysm, there may be a good reason for the increase in the number of magicker PCs being approved.
What are the odds that a group of 8 random, mundane warriors (your average Byn unit, assuming 5 of them aren't really assassins trying to skill up) is going to dramatically affect the outcome of a large-scale magickal confrontation? Slim to none. What are the odds that a group of 8 magickers is going to change the outcome of the same confrontation? I'd say they're probably much, much higher. There could be a -storyline- reason that more magickers are being allowed to play: the under-represented magicker classes need to be represented in order to fully tell the story of the final conflict. I'm guessing that having the only two Vivaduan PC gemmers in 'nak face off against the zombie of Luir Dragonsthrall and his Doom Legions isn't exactly representative of the kind of power that the entire Elementalists' Quarter can muster.
Beyond that, it's quite likely that the reason you keep seeing so many different magickers is that so many keep dying. In the past week, I can count four...and these were magickers who had branched the "uber" spells that everyone is so worried about. No amount of spam casting can correct the poor judgment of an inexperienced player. Can irresponsible magickers be a pain in the butt? Yeah. But generally, an irresponsible player, like the ebola virus, is self-limiting: it sucks a fat one if you get hit by it, but in the end, it can't sustain that level of suck for very long.
I had a long-lived, awesome PC get killed by one of these twink spam-casting magickers...did it suck? Yeah. But guess what...about a week later, that twink spam-casting magicker got the attention of some dudes in the know, and all the spam-casting in the world couldn't save his bacon. I once logged in with a magicker character, and at the same time another character of exactly the same element logged in...a week later, this guy had branched -way- beyond me, and I was feeling pretty stupid (because hell, I'd never branched a spell before -ever-, and I'm pretty damn good at powergaming other classes...I once got a half-giant warrior with poor wisdom branched in 10 days). One day, the guy goes off, thinking he's all badass, and I never see him again. Stupid is as stupid does...what goes around comes around...you reap what you sow...etc, etc.
Bemoaning that there are "too many" magickers around and that this makes them "not as scary" is silly. The fact that there are many of them makes them even scarier: what happens if you've got a badass-on-his-own elementalist running around with magickal powerups from three other elements? If you're not scared, it's not because you ought not to be: it's because you're allowing your jaded player's worldview to influence your character's actions, and this is likely to end badly for your character.
If you think someone is playing completely irresponsibly, and should no longer be allowed to play mages, e-mail the staff and let them know, and I'm sure they'll look into it. Beyond that, griping is just sour grapes.
What are the odds that a group of 8 random, mundane warriors (your average Byn unit, assuming 5 of them aren't really assassins trying to skill up) is going to dramatically affect the outcome of a large-scale magickal confrontation? Slim to none. What are the odds that a group of 8 magickers is going to change the outcome of the same confrontation? I'd say they're probably much, much higher. There could be a -storyline- reason that more magickers are being allowed to play: the under-represented magicker classes need to be represented in order to fully tell the story of the final conflict. I'm guessing that having the only two Vivaduan PC gemmers in 'nak face off against the zombie of Luir Dragonsthrall and his Doom Legions isn't exactly representative of the kind of power that the entire Elementalists' Quarter can muster.
Beyond that, it's quite likely that the reason you keep seeing so many different magickers is that so many keep dying. In the past week, I can count four...and these were magickers who had branched the "uber" spells that everyone is so worried about. No amount of spam casting can correct the poor judgment of an inexperienced player. Can irresponsible magickers be a pain in the butt? Yeah. But generally, an irresponsible player, like the ebola virus, is self-limiting: it sucks a fat one if you get hit by it, but in the end, it can't sustain that level of suck for very long.
I had a long-lived, awesome PC get killed by one of these twink spam-casting magickers...did it suck? Yeah. But guess what...about a week later, that twink spam-casting magicker got the attention of some dudes in the know, and all the spam-casting in the world couldn't save his bacon. I once logged in with a magicker character, and at the same time another character of exactly the same element logged in...a week later, this guy had branched -way- beyond me, and I was feeling pretty stupid (because hell, I'd never branched a spell before -ever-, and I'm pretty damn good at powergaming other classes...I once got a half-giant warrior with poor wisdom branched in 10 days). One day, the guy goes off, thinking he's all badass, and I never see him again. Stupid is as stupid does...what goes around comes around...you reap what you sow...etc, etc.
Bemoaning that there are "too many" magickers around and that this makes them "not as scary" is silly. The fact that there are many of them makes them even scarier: what happens if you've got a badass-on-his-own elementalist running around with magickal powerups from three other elements? If you're not scared, it's not because you ought not to be: it's because you're allowing your jaded player's worldview to influence your character's actions, and this is likely to end badly for your character.
If you think someone is playing completely irresponsibly, and should no longer be allowed to play mages, e-mail the staff and let them know, and I'm sure they'll look into it. Beyond that, griping is just sour grapes.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Only He Stands There on April 04, 2007, 11:52:24 PM
Post by: Only He Stands There on April 04, 2007, 11:52:24 PM
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5069&start=0
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Gimfalisette on April 05, 2007, 12:17:00 AM
Post by: Gimfalisette on April 05, 2007, 12:17:00 AM
Quote from: "Malken"I used to think that this was only happening in Tuluk, then I created a PC in Allanak just to see, and during my CST peaktime weeknights, I would often only see the same 2-3 PCs in the tavern sitting there, always going, dammit, I should have stayed in Tuluk, it seems like this Gimf chick is throwing RPTs every week or so, don't tell me that now that I've switched back to Allanak all the players went back to Tuluk?
So if you think it's just a problem in Tuluk, let me tell you that you'll be disappointed if you switch location thinking it's any better on the other side of the playground.
I do throw a mean RPT ;)
And my point wasn't that I'm thinking of switching to Allanak. That would mean storing my current character, which I'm just not going to do.
Nor was my point that I think that Allanak's not suffering, because clearly it is.
Point was...mundane RP is suffering. That is all.
And despite what some people think, tavern-sitting is a good thing. It's just as valid an activity as people being "off in their clan halls, doing work, or on missions, or doing business privately." Taverns are where the majority of first-time introductions happen, taverns are where commoners often interact with nobles and templars, taverns are where people can go for entertainment, taverns are where news is exchanged...it's silly to dismiss tavern-sitting like it's not important to the game, because it is.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Dresan on April 05, 2007, 12:56:11 AM
Post by: Dresan on April 05, 2007, 12:56:11 AM
I hate to say this but it feels that people aren't playing magickers to actually RP a magickal character. If people actually just wanted to RP magickal beings then most of them would not care about any of the coded benifits like 'teeth' or fast skill advancement.
No since they would then be content to start from the begining. A person figuring out they are a mage, RPing the social aspects of it. Hiding from their peers, maybe not even bothering to train their powers or doing it at a painstaking rate. If someone wants to find a cave and train for 40-60 days before coming out..well good for them. However after the first or second mage i'm sure they'd probably want to play a more social warrior or ranger.
However what we currently have here is people wanting to play a class that can actually do things. Mages can do things easier then any warrior, ranger or assassin and they can do it quickly. On top of that a mage can come down from their cloud and RP like a merchant for a bit or a noble's aide. For all mundanes though takes 20 days of long painstaking often repetitive training, just to get DECENT...just to begin looking like your chosen class. It takes another 20 days to get good but still possible to die quickly at doing what your chosen class is designed to do. Thats a big investment in my life in hopes of achieving just one those incredibly fun scenes a skilled character can do.
Its sad but true, i honestly can't blame people for opting for a magicker that can do and see interesting stuff without a huge investment in one's life.
However if this is the case, why not give Karma players the option of playing more skilled mundanes? I say option, this means they should still be able to play a newbie mundane character if they want. I still think the skill learning rate should be toned down a bit more for mages but would they game honestly suffer from a newbie having more skilled mundanes to play with? Usually they are the ones that drive or are the gears in plots.
1 Karma- +20% on all starting skills on mundanes
2 karma- +35%
3 karma- +40 %, +15 on branched skills.
Etc etc, you get the point. Maybe that way we can tell newbie character to find a master assassin with a straight face. I remember i was told this would drive a bigger wedge between newbies and vet players. However with most vet players (and not so vet it seems) wanting to play magickers isn't that a bigger wedge then say someone with high karma and staff trust making a skilled assassin and then mentoring a newbie or two?
No since they would then be content to start from the begining. A person figuring out they are a mage, RPing the social aspects of it. Hiding from their peers, maybe not even bothering to train their powers or doing it at a painstaking rate. If someone wants to find a cave and train for 40-60 days before coming out..well good for them. However after the first or second mage i'm sure they'd probably want to play a more social warrior or ranger.
However what we currently have here is people wanting to play a class that can actually do things. Mages can do things easier then any warrior, ranger or assassin and they can do it quickly. On top of that a mage can come down from their cloud and RP like a merchant for a bit or a noble's aide. For all mundanes though takes 20 days of long painstaking often repetitive training, just to get DECENT...just to begin looking like your chosen class. It takes another 20 days to get good but still possible to die quickly at doing what your chosen class is designed to do. Thats a big investment in my life in hopes of achieving just one those incredibly fun scenes a skilled character can do.
Its sad but true, i honestly can't blame people for opting for a magicker that can do and see interesting stuff without a huge investment in one's life.
However if this is the case, why not give Karma players the option of playing more skilled mundanes? I say option, this means they should still be able to play a newbie mundane character if they want. I still think the skill learning rate should be toned down a bit more for mages but would they game honestly suffer from a newbie having more skilled mundanes to play with? Usually they are the ones that drive or are the gears in plots.
1 Karma- +20% on all starting skills on mundanes
2 karma- +35%
3 karma- +40 %, +15 on branched skills.
Etc etc, you get the point. Maybe that way we can tell newbie character to find a master assassin with a straight face. I remember i was told this would drive a bigger wedge between newbies and vet players. However with most vet players (and not so vet it seems) wanting to play magickers isn't that a bigger wedge then say someone with high karma and staff trust making a skilled assassin and then mentoring a newbie or two?
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Gimfalisette on April 05, 2007, 01:33:35 AM
Post by: Gimfalisette on April 05, 2007, 01:33:35 AM
Just another thought that occurred to me regarding the current difficulty/lack of purely mundane interaction in the game:
Who's around in the taverns to interact with the complete newbs? Are we losing potential players because the normal tavern scene has dropped off so significantly? If a newb goes linkdead in an empty tavern, does anyone hear Ginka cry?
Who's around in the taverns to interact with the complete newbs? Are we losing potential players because the normal tavern scene has dropped off so significantly? If a newb goes linkdead in an empty tavern, does anyone hear Ginka cry?
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: BuNutzCola on April 05, 2007, 01:36:52 AM
Post by: BuNutzCola on April 05, 2007, 01:36:52 AM
Brilliant idea, I would definately take a remotely decent mundane class to begin with far more often than I would a magicker.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Angela Christine on April 05, 2007, 03:45:53 AM
Post by: Angela Christine on April 05, 2007, 03:45:53 AM
Quote from: "Lizzie"As a player of a mundane PC, I'll chime in on this. I branched a few very useful non-magicker combat skills in a very short period of time. Less than 2 days play-time in fact.
Me too. With a ranger I routinely branch Charge in under 2 days.
Er, actually, that's often the only skill I branch. I ride around doing stuff, but none of the stuff I do ever makes anything branch. I suck at skills. As a merchant I might get one or two craft skills to branch, before I go out of my mind.
I think the only time I branched a spell was as a water elementalist. That time I had a spell branch from making water. If you grow up in a desert and then gain the ability to make free water, you really have to think of good reasons to not do it at every opportunity, because otherwise you could quite legitimately spend every waking moment making water or preparing to make water. Even if you can't sell it easily, hey, it's free water. Grow some houseplants or something.
With most other spells, I have trouble coming up with a good reason to cast spells. I'm all, "Hey, I can make something float, or glow, or do some other basically useless activity that will get me into trouble if anyone sees it, what fun." I never know how to go about it. Wake up, cast a couple spells and then . . . sit down and wait for the mana to regenerate so I can cast again? It is hard for me to figure out a reason to do that. I know that useful spells may be lurking behind some of the apparently useless spells, but since I haven't seen the skill and spells lists people insist exist, I have no idea which useless spells I should be spamming to get at the good stuff. Even the useful spells are really only useful a couple times a day, casting them continuously to force a branch doesn't appear to make sense.
Sure, I could avoid the problem by not casting spells, but if you don't cast spells then you are just a Merchant with no craft or trade skills. You know you've hit rock bottom when you find yourself thinking, "Man, if I wasn't an elementalist, I could be fletching arrows right now!"
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Cegar on April 05, 2007, 04:15:18 AM
Post by: Cegar on April 05, 2007, 04:15:18 AM
Hyperbole in this thread is getting out of hand.
It really, really isn't that bad. The only reason that there are so many magickers at the moment is because the world is about to freaking end. Things are not running at the status quo. Sure, there were always a lot of magickers during status quo, but we can begin to address than in 2.arm when we know what the new karma system will be, what the class system will be, and what the world will be. K?
It really, really isn't that bad. The only reason that there are so many magickers at the moment is because the world is about to freaking end. Things are not running at the status quo. Sure, there were always a lot of magickers during status quo, but we can begin to address than in 2.arm when we know what the new karma system will be, what the class system will be, and what the world will be. K?
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Foolash on April 05, 2007, 04:58:04 AM
Post by: Foolash on April 05, 2007, 04:58:04 AM
Right. But another point that several people in this thread made is that, against the grain of the documentation, it now saturates the game. The magickers playing now, not all of them (all it takes is a couple bad apples...), make no effort to conceal the mystery of magick. I know for a fact that one fellow I rp around is a new player and he was mentioning xx magicker casting xx like it was nobody's business. This is a serious problem. Part of the wonder I had with my first few days of arm is that I had no knowledge of magick. Little displays of it would literally leave me feeling red-ass nekked and abused. Armageddon's characteristically wonderful -depth- is in jeopardy here. No longer am I suprised by the tricks the game can toss at me. No, I do not think it gets fixed now. Deadline is what thee months? two? No one will want to sac their gicker so people can be happy to get a half-decent mundane by the time the game ends. As an issue that carries over to the new version where there will be no karma restriction for the first few months I truly hope this sort of thing does not carry over. Either that, or it would become a magick saturated world (blech!). Personally I'd like to know going in. Dig?
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Cegar on April 05, 2007, 05:06:34 AM
Post by: Cegar on April 05, 2007, 05:06:34 AM
Ridicule your friends who turn out to be magickers. Kill them. Get Templars to kill them. Out them to everyone else. DO IT.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: spawnloser on April 05, 2007, 06:47:56 AM
Post by: spawnloser on April 05, 2007, 06:47:56 AM
Quote from: "Hymwen"I didn't make that character to become powerful, I did it to see if it was possible.Of course it is possible. Does that mean you should do it? No. It's possible so that you can cast a few spells and then STOP CASTING AND DO OTHER STUFF without feeling like you're a pussy that will never be able to survive on his/her own.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: spawnloser on April 05, 2007, 06:51:14 AM
Post by: spawnloser on April 05, 2007, 06:51:14 AM
Quote from: "LoD"Don't attack Hymwen because she's been forced to these extremes.Who forced her?
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: spawnloser on April 05, 2007, 06:59:57 AM
Post by: spawnloser on April 05, 2007, 06:59:57 AM
Quote from: "Ghost"I can name three magicker types that can sustain themselves (in terms of nourishment) right out of the box.You're wrong. I'll avoid giving the actual number of magicker classes that can provide nutrition with their starting spells, though.
Quote from: "Ghost"Another two more, I can name for avoiding danger again right out of the box.Avoiding danger straight away? No magicker can just avoid all danger without branching.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: flurry on April 05, 2007, 07:05:02 AM
Post by: flurry on April 05, 2007, 07:05:02 AM
Quote from: "Foolash"Right. But another point that several people in this thread made is that, against the grain of the documentation, it now saturates the game. The magickers playing now, not all of them (all it takes is a couple bad apples...), make no effort to conceal the mystery of magick. I know for a fact that one fellow I rp around is a new player and he was mentioning xx magicker casting xx like it was nobody's business. This is a serious problem. Part of the wonder I had with my first few days of arm is that I had no knowledge of magick. Little displays of it would literally leave me feeling red-ass nekked and abused. Armageddon's characteristically wonderful -depth- is in jeopardy here. No longer am I suprised by the tricks the game can toss at me.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this is a problem. People speak about magick details far more freely on the GDB than they used to, and it makes me want to avoid all threads dealing with magick. I don't know where it went off track or why, but now people will freely post of the capabilities of the different classes.
It wasn't that long ago when discussion of skill tree progression, particularly for magickers, was not allowed. Now we at least one player creating a character with no intention to roleplay, but rather to spam-cast in an effort to gain IC info about magickers, and then post the results on the GDB. This is okay?
Someone posted on another thread about hoping players will keep the new sorcery details secret in Armageddon 2. I wanted to laugh. Not because I disagree; I couldn't agree more. I've just seen so little restraint shown about keeping secret info off the GDB.
It used to be that common knowledge of magick was determined by the public documentation, not by whoever were the most ineffective secret-keepers with karma. I miss those days.
edit to add: For one of many examples, see the post above.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: spawnloser on April 05, 2007, 07:08:48 AM
Post by: spawnloser on April 05, 2007, 07:08:48 AM
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"That's my point exactly. The documentatation is already out the window. And I'm not happy about it.You're wrong, because you're ignoring the thousands upon thousands of VNPCs and NPCs that aren't magickers.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Ghost on April 05, 2007, 08:14:21 AM
Post by: Ghost on April 05, 2007, 08:14:21 AM
Quote from: "spawnloser"Of course it is possible. Does that mean you should do it? No. It's possible so that you can cast a few spells and then STOP CASTING AND DO OTHER STUFF without feeling like you're a pussy that will never be able to survive on his/her own.
I am fine with the idea that assassins should be able to branch parry (which is in the helpfile) in one day and max backstab and sneak/hide under two days of playtime.
Of course, it does not mean people should do it. Just let's make that possible. What do you say?
Quote from: "spawnlooser"Quote from: "Ghost"Avoiding danger straight away? No magicker can just avoid all danger without branching.
Another two more, I can name for avoiding danger again right out of the box.
I was actually replying to this like in two sentence... But then I realized my original post was quite clear and the way it was meant to. I am not even going to explain myself one more time, anyone can go and reread it.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Lizzie on April 05, 2007, 08:17:51 AM
Post by: Lizzie on April 05, 2007, 08:17:51 AM
It looks like the last "update" on magickers in all of the web pages was in 2003. I have to assume they're updates, since the game's been around for a lot longer than that and has had magickers in it longer than that.
So, the documentation on magickers, our "appropriate" perceptions of their existence, and the technical stuff about them (such as how to cast a spell) was last updated 4 years ago. Armageddon is an evolving game, its plotlines constantly changing. Four real-life years is a very long time, for a world such as Zalanthas.
What if people forced themselves to step out of the box of the old documentation, and saw things from a different perspective?
We already know the world (as we know it) is going to end. There's little point now, in updating 4-year-old docs, when those docs will be completely obsolete in around 6 months. So, why not look at it something like this:
Magickers have always been the big threat, and never moreso than now. The world's mundane populace are nervously wondering where all these magickers have come from - has Tektolnes begun amassing a new army, unbenownst even to His Templars? Does Muk Utep secretly harness magickal powers forceful enough to bestow lesser powers on people he has chosen, at birth, who don't even realize they exist to become his minions? Is the Sandlord gathering the elements and sending them out upon random grebbers, in some maniacal attempt at creating a new Age of Chaos?
Or even more scary - has the planet itself begun to churn with its own destructive forces, and the way of life for every city-bound person, every tribe, every elf, even the silt horrors - now at risk of complete and utter anihlation?
Rather than bitch about it here on the GDB (which you all have a right to do of course, but it doesn't seem very productive), why not roleplay it out? Why not roleplay however your character would feel, in a world that has disdained magicks since before your character was born, but has suddenly been spawning magicks all over the place as though the very desert sands has spewed them forth?
Would your character be afraid? Happy? Indifferent? Curious? Why not turn this influx of magickers into a plotline? Or - maybe it already is, and the staff just don't want to tell anyone. Maybe it's an intentional part of the "end of the world plotline," to let in so many more magicker applications than ever before. And of course they can't confirm that here cause it would spoil the surprise.
I don't know what the real deal is on this issue, the reasoning behind all these magickers being around. I don't think any of us knows for sure, we can suppose and assume, but I think it's just SO much more fun to accept that there are a lot more than previously, and RP out the reaction to it.
L. Stanson
So, the documentation on magickers, our "appropriate" perceptions of their existence, and the technical stuff about them (such as how to cast a spell) was last updated 4 years ago. Armageddon is an evolving game, its plotlines constantly changing. Four real-life years is a very long time, for a world such as Zalanthas.
What if people forced themselves to step out of the box of the old documentation, and saw things from a different perspective?
We already know the world (as we know it) is going to end. There's little point now, in updating 4-year-old docs, when those docs will be completely obsolete in around 6 months. So, why not look at it something like this:
Magickers have always been the big threat, and never moreso than now. The world's mundane populace are nervously wondering where all these magickers have come from - has Tektolnes begun amassing a new army, unbenownst even to His Templars? Does Muk Utep secretly harness magickal powers forceful enough to bestow lesser powers on people he has chosen, at birth, who don't even realize they exist to become his minions? Is the Sandlord gathering the elements and sending them out upon random grebbers, in some maniacal attempt at creating a new Age of Chaos?
Or even more scary - has the planet itself begun to churn with its own destructive forces, and the way of life for every city-bound person, every tribe, every elf, even the silt horrors - now at risk of complete and utter anihlation?
Rather than bitch about it here on the GDB (which you all have a right to do of course, but it doesn't seem very productive), why not roleplay it out? Why not roleplay however your character would feel, in a world that has disdained magicks since before your character was born, but has suddenly been spawning magicks all over the place as though the very desert sands has spewed them forth?
Would your character be afraid? Happy? Indifferent? Curious? Why not turn this influx of magickers into a plotline? Or - maybe it already is, and the staff just don't want to tell anyone. Maybe it's an intentional part of the "end of the world plotline," to let in so many more magicker applications than ever before. And of course they can't confirm that here cause it would spoil the surprise.
I don't know what the real deal is on this issue, the reasoning behind all these magickers being around. I don't think any of us knows for sure, we can suppose and assume, but I think it's just SO much more fun to accept that there are a lot more than previously, and RP out the reaction to it.
L. Stanson
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Tarx on April 05, 2007, 08:39:33 AM
Post by: Tarx on April 05, 2007, 08:39:33 AM
Heh. I like Lizzie's idea.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Marauder Moe on April 05, 2007, 08:54:28 AM
Post by: Marauder Moe on April 05, 2007, 08:54:28 AM
You know, if an increase in magick preceding the next cataclysm is something meant to be ICly happening, the immortals might not ever come here and acknowledge it. Something to think about.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Malken on April 05, 2007, 09:16:38 AM
Post by: Malken on April 05, 2007, 09:16:38 AM
This "End of the World" excuse is getting ridiculous for me, it's just pure speculation at this point.
The game is just losing its appeal for me right now, and you are right, it's just bitching at this point and the admins are letting us go through 50+ pages of tossing around numbers and IC information without telling us much of what's going on and if it's as it should be or if there's really a problem or not.. (Except for a couple of admins who first told us that things were as it should be but a few pages back are now telling us that indeed there might be a problem with the numbers of non-mundane characters we see in the game lately).
So at this point I think it's better for me to just take a step back and come back in a few months for, hopefully, the real end of time RPTs and see how things are with the new Arm 2.0
Peace out!
The game is just losing its appeal for me right now, and you are right, it's just bitching at this point and the admins are letting us go through 50+ pages of tossing around numbers and IC information without telling us much of what's going on and if it's as it should be or if there's really a problem or not.. (Except for a couple of admins who first told us that things were as it should be but a few pages back are now telling us that indeed there might be a problem with the numbers of non-mundane characters we see in the game lately).
So at this point I think it's better for me to just take a step back and come back in a few months for, hopefully, the real end of time RPTs and see how things are with the new Arm 2.0
Peace out!
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Ghost on April 05, 2007, 10:41:32 AM
Post by: Ghost on April 05, 2007, 10:41:32 AM
Quote from: "Lizzie"Magickers have always been the big threat, and never moreso than now. The world's mundane populace are nervously wondering where all these magickers have come from - has Tektolnes begun amassing a new army, unbenownst even to His Templars? Does Muk Utep secretly harness magickal powers forceful enough to bestow lesser powers on people he has chosen, at birth, who don't even realize they exist to become his minions? Is the Sandlord gathering the elements and sending them out upon random grebbers, in some maniacal attempt at creating a new Age of Chaos?
No. The concentration of the magickers in the world did not change. Or we would see a staff note in one of these threads like "The number of magick encounters on PC to PC level is purely IC, please RP it accordingly" if it was a change in the entire world. If it was really something that we should consider as an IC happening, and if the staff did not tell us, that would be a really great joke on all playerbase. Except it would not really be funny. Why would staff want to mislead us in something that affect the entire world in the first place?
Quote from: "Lizzie"Rather than bitch about it here on the GDB (which you all have a right to do of course, but it doesn't seem very productive), why not roleplay it out? Why not roleplay however your character would feel, in a world that has disdained magicks since before your character was born, but has suddenly been spawning magicks all over the place as though the very desert sands has spewed them forth?
Considering there are approximately 500000 people in Allanak, lets say 1000 is gemmed. That would probably be the approximate ratio of magicker/mundane in the entire world: About 1/500 I am guessing. Throw out the really burden-to-play roles (such as slaves) that will probably leave 150000 playable characters in Allanak. The ratio is now 1/150, which is still optional. Multiply it with people's enjoying certain roles and necessary special applications (nobles to drive plots, templars to enforce laws...etc) I will multiply that ratio with 10 (which I believe is more than generous) so that will leave an approximate ratio of 1/15. And that would be a reasonable ratio, at least for me to play along.
Now that is more or less the expected ratio that I would expect to encounter in any region of the known world. If I am now becoming magick-friendly just because majority of people I can interact (PCs) are magickers and most of everything else is just mindless zombies (vNPCs and NPCs) and if I am being magicker friendly for the sake of that then it is bad RP in all levels. It is not even true there are that many magickers, it is just they are so visible! And they are the only ones I can befriend/love/hate/oppose/compete/fight/work with/work for so what the hell? The best RP option here is to just quit the character so he can actually RP appropriately with the appropriate vNPCs, instead of going around lame excuses to interact with the playerbase.
P.S: I can just see someone taking one sentence out of this post and saying "Oh you should consider vNPCs it is how I RP it is how you should RP bla bla.."
Don't. Just don't. I know there are vNPCs and we RP accordingly, but they don't greet me back when I say hello or they don't fight back when I beat them, they don't sell me a piece of armor, I can't count them as one of my contacts to supply spice, and I definitely do not get killed by one of them. So don't derail mindlessly.
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: LoD on April 05, 2007, 11:52:51 AM
Post by: LoD on April 05, 2007, 11:52:51 AM
Quote from: "spawnloser"Quote from: "LoD"Don't attack Hymwen because she's been forced to these extremes.
Who forced her?
My guess is the people on the GDB that swore up and down that magickers were not capable of becoming powerful as quickly as Hymwen, Ghost, and a few others had claimed. Go back through the threads and you'll see this arguement come up over and over where players deny the fact that it is possible for a magicker to grow powerful enough to handle most mundane threats in a very short period of time.
When people don't like what they're hearing,denial is one of the first most obvious reactions. Well, we're not sitting face-to-face where we could privately convey our experiences, so Hymwen took another solution to help demonstrate to the vocal posters (and silent readers) what is possible. And simply because magickers are a karma class doesn't mean that several players haven't progressed through their spell trees extremely quickly -- especially those playing their second, third, or fourth magickal character in a row.
Quote from: "spawnloser"You're wrong, because you're ignoring the thousands upon thousands of VNPCs and NPCs that aren't magickers.
She isn't wrong. Especially not because you say so. The documentation is there to provide us with a guideline of how our general concepts of the world should be determined. There's no qualifier in the documentation that states players or player characters are exempt from following the documentation, which relates mostly or solely to the virtual populace.
I've always taken the documentation as a measure of how the entire gameworld should feel. If magick is a rare and mysterious component of Zalanthas, then it should be rare and mysterious to the player, non-player, and virtual characters in the game. You cannot bypass this with some convenient excuse that all player characters are "special" characters and, therefore, are excused from both following the documentation and expecting the documentation to be followed.
The problem is that the "available" roles span an extremely large cross section of the global food chain. You could have five people create new characters and enter the world as a 'rinth beggar, a Byn mercenary, a a Kuraci hunter, an Allanaki templar, and a rogue sorcerer. The difference between those roles is -massive- and the issue is that some of the lower end people are being trampled by a growing quantity of the upper tier. And by trampled, I mean their gameplay, which probably shouldn't contain an ounce of magickal interaction, now contains magickal elements. Not only once, but frequently.
As Halaster mentioned, the "teeth" given to magickers were designed with the notion that magickers, as a group of players, would be few and far between. Once that number began to grow, its presence was more prominently felt by the players of lower tier characters because of the disparity in power.
The problem isn't with the model for magickal spell progression.
The problem isn't with the power potential of the magicker class.
The problem is with both the total number and distribution of the magickers in game as they relate to the rest of the playerbase.
The playerbase isn't large enough to entertain a gameworld with lower, middle, and upper echelons of power while remaining independant of one another. The culture and the lack of players creates a frequent and often unwanted meeting of magickal/mundane that probably shouldn't happen, but does because there aren't enough other options.
Mundane leaders get approached (aggressively or passively) by magickal entities because magicker players, like mundane players, want to use the abilities they have practiced to "do something". Guards practice so they can guard. Merchants practice so they can make money. Thieves practice so they can steal. Magickers practice so they can use magick. Use it for what? Most of the plots in the gameworld involve mundane players because it simply follows the demographics, but the power of the magickers can be so awesome that it completely trumps the mundane's involvement.
The entire northern region makes it nearly impossible for magickers to use their powers in mundane plots in a positive way, so it constantly is introduced in an aggressive, overbearing, or sometimes fatal way that leaves the mundanes feeling frustrated. Those are the kind of problems that result from having a culture that forces a "us vs. them" mentality of magicker vs. mundane, but doesn't appropriately limit the number of magickers to keep a sense of balance between the two forces. And once that balance is lost, the game becomes less and less attractive to your average mundane player.
Let's say that you played pick-up basketball every week with the neighborhood kids. Every once and awhile, a professional basketball player would show up. It'd be fun because there'd be an army of low ability players and this professional that can do amazing things. However, now each week the number of professional quality players grows to the point that some of the pick-up players feel left out and trampled. They aren't guarding pick-up players, they're guarding professionals. The professionals start taking over their game and before you know it, the original players are kind of wishing that they could just go back to playing simple pick-up basketball without the professionals always showing up.
And, if it doesn't change, eventually those pick-up players are going to look for another court to play on.
You shouldn't interpret that feeling as "hatred" for magickers or a desire to see the option to play magickers being challenged, but a plea from several players that a game they really enjoyed has been changing in a way that lessens both the fun they glean from each session, and the desire to participate.
As Belenos said, there's no easy answer. Hopefully we can address some of these issues and provide fun for both groups in Arm 2.
-LoD
Title: I hate magickers, official thread.
Post by: Sanvean on April 05, 2007, 11:58:03 AM
Post by: Sanvean on April 05, 2007, 11:58:03 AM
Hey guys. Too much edging towards flame-land, along with bits of IC-senstive info, and assertions made based on random facts taken out of context makes me think that letting LoD have the last word is a fine idea.
Please be sensitive to the fact that we don't want a lot of discussion of the magic system on here. A great many people want to find things out IC, and not on the boards.
If you have assertions or commentary that you feel absolutely shoudl be considered in the next version of the game, feel free to email it to me and I will compile it into the new game wiki for other staff to read and contemplate.
(later edit)
I have edited out some info from this thread, but have not gone through post by post because it's frickin' 24 pages long. To be clear on this, you should not be posting skill or game mechanic information on this board. It is one easy way to get yourself banned. Do not do it. If you see someone doing something that distresses you on the boards, it is significantly more effective to mail a board admin than to start spewing flames.
Please be sensitive to the fact that we don't want a lot of discussion of the magic system on here. A great many people want to find things out IC, and not on the boards.
If you have assertions or commentary that you feel absolutely shoudl be considered in the next version of the game, feel free to email it to me and I will compile it into the new game wiki for other staff to read and contemplate.
(later edit)
I have edited out some info from this thread, but have not gone through post by post because it's frickin' 24 pages long. To be clear on this, you should not be posting skill or game mechanic information on this board. It is one easy way to get yourself banned. Do not do it. If you see someone doing something that distresses you on the boards, it is significantly more effective to mail a board admin than to start spewing flames.