Armageddon General Discussion Board

Hello. Yes, I'm bringing the dead horse up for another beating. I have wanted to play a guild_assassin PC for a while but I'm worried about one thing: practicing backstab. I'm fully aware that doing it while sparring is frowned upon (and generally impossible since sparring daggers aren't coded as stabbing weapons) and that backstabbing random NPCs for the purpose of becoming better at a skill is not much of a viable option either. Neither do I like the thought of learning this skill through using it on small game while hunting because the concept I had in mind is not to become a master at offing rats and birds. So unless I have overlooked something, this leaves me with two options:

1) Find a master assassin who will teach you. Well I have been playing for almost a year (not claiming that this is a lot, but still) in pretty much every part of the game - every location, most types of characters and most layers of societies - and I haven't really heard of any master assassin PCs, and certainly not any that would be willing to spend months training up somebody. That's not a problem but my point is that this option, in my book, is not really something you can rely on as a way to reach a goal.

2) Join a sparring clan such as the T'zai Byn and snail-pace your backstab skill up by using it once every other week or however often you go out on desert trips and actually meet viable targets (this is not a jozhal or a yompar lizard). Depending on how often you play it could take something like a RL year before you reach any kind of lethality.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not simply looking for the fastest way to become badass. What bothers me is that the way some of the skills are coded makes it very hard to train them without being very, very creative or balancing on the border of twinking. The argument I hear the most against practicing backstab while sparring is that people don't like it when you try to kill them, and backstabbing is an attempt to kill. Yes, a real full-blown backstab is an attempt to kill, but is practicing the skill the same? Not in my opinion, but there is only that one way to use backstab because of how it's coded. Why is it not possible to safely practice the moves, the stealth and the anatomical knowledge that pretty much makes up the entirety of the backstab skill, perhaps not to master it but to at least get to a point beyond useless, without having to use the skill in its true form?

So to highlight the point of my long-winded post: I don't like the way backstab and other similar skills are coded when it comes to practicing them, or how most of the arguments against training them are based on how they are coded.

What do you think?

I think that a competant backstab is such a Friggin' terrifying skill that it makes me sleep better at night knowing that it is not something you can easily, or quickly improve with.

Read over the extensive multiple discussions on this topic in previous threads.  You will find that the two options you listed are far from the only ones available for developing such skills.

Quote from: "a foreign presence"What do you think?

A wealth of suggestions, options and debate is available from just about every angle on this matter, easily accessible to all.  

Quote from: "a foreign presence"I don't like the way backstab and other similar skills are coded when it comes to practicing them, or how most of the arguments against training them are based on how they are coded.

I don't understand your opinion.  As far as I know, backstab is coded for learning in the same manner that every other skill in the game is.  The arguments limiting excessive training with backstab are the same arguments against excessive training with any other skill:  Is use of the skill realistic and appropriate to the environment and your PC?

Take it from an experienced player, that while backstab is a powerful skill it is by no means an assassin's sole track to become lethal. There are many tactics available to the seasoned killer that don't involve a single backstab, and imo the greatest asset to an assassin is it's ability to gather information. That being said, the staff position on working backstab is pretty clear, since a backstab is an attempt to strike vitals and deal damage to an opponent with the express intent to kill or cripple is at odds with the idea of sparring. You really do need to have a reason to use the skill, and even then it will be difficult to get lethal with it without dying somewhere along the line because use of such a skill usually tends to really tick some people off. My advice? Good luck, and play it smart. Even if you advance at snail-pace, you'll be one fearsome bastard if you stay alive. Welcome to Armageddon.

The problem with backstab is that it's an all-out vicious attack - you can't 'practice' an eye-gouging maneuver against a friend during friendly sparring, because they could suffer permanent damage.

But on the other hand, if you're really feeling held back by your low backstab skill and you can't find a better method, you can always RP some practice and send a Skill Increase request.

Here are some things you can practice on:
1) Having a friend stand still for you to test the various attacks/methods of approach on, without actually hitting them.
2) Studying and dissecting a dead corpse, and learning from Physicians about the vital organs.
3) Practicing lunges and even some light acrobatics.
4) Stabbing stances and perfecting the grip on your chosen weapon.
5) Performing Katas.

Generally speaking though, you probably shouldn't worry about Backstab too much.  If you can't make friends with another backstab user that would be willing to teach you, just give it time and don't sweat.

The arguments used to deter/prevent players from practising backstab are mere smoke screens contrived by the paranoid.  Backstab is a strike to the vitals, be that an eye, an organ, the groin etc., take your pick.  There is nothing unrealistic about painting a red dot on the armor of your sparring buddy, indicating "this is where his right lung lies" and then attempting to strike that target at the onset of melee.  When your WOODEN dagger strikes his WOODEN armor exactly on the mark (by typing 'backstab dude'), then you've achieved the desired result - and you've probably caused less pain or bruising than a regular sparring match does.  There isn't anything unrealistic about that.

If you want to prevent people from practising backstab because you're afraid they'll get too powerful too quick, then just say it.  But there's nothing unrealistic about training a strike upon someone's vitals by using (soft) mock weapons.  Draw a red circle on my shirt, right where my heart lies, and routinely try to strike me there with a leather handle.  What you're effectively doing is training the critical strike otherwise known as backstab.

As for the notion that "Backstab is eye-gouging, you can't practise that!"  Firstly, you can practise on inanimate objects to improve your strike and secondly, if I'm the backstabber in question, I'll decide if it's an eye-gouge, a strike to your kidney, groin, etc.  Not you.  Since I'm in control of the vital I am striking for, I can safely practise it on you without inflicting damage, using all of the examples above.  Let's be careful we're not trying to win an argument just to prevent people from doing something.  When you apply logic to your argument, you begin to realise real quick that practising a vital strike without inflicting real damage is both realistic and extremely easy.  From this angle, we can see that practising backstab is less painful than practising all out fighting.  You can hit the red dot painted on my breastplate all day and I'll be fine, but clobber me on the head with a club designed even for sparring and I'll start to get bruised real quick.

A good option, and probably your best bet, would be to simply train your assassin as a fighter that specializes in striking vital locations of the anatomy or pressure points, etc.  Train basically just like any other warrior might train, except you'd probably want to learn about being sneaky, climbing, and finding good places to hide to ambush an opponent or whatever... these should be fairly easy to practice.  Once you've become fairly decent in all of these things, (and not just focusing on backstab, like someone else said... you have many other tools at your disposal) then you'd actually probably have more chances to use backstab in an actual 'situation'.  You'd probably find a friend or someone that trusts you to use a not-so-lethal looking weapon to practice on... in the past I've always seen it role-played as just trying to get a surprise attack in and not actually trying to kill someone so I don't see the huge deal in practicing it during sparring or whatever if you role-play it properly and don't do huge amounts of damage yet or anything.  

But again, I don't think you need to worry about being an expert at it very quickly when you can get the job done in other ways.  A master is a master for a reason, someone that can nearly kill someone in one blow should not be easy to find.  It's already bad enough when there's people running around right now that can kill with a single command with poisons, majick, half-giant strength, uber-spar-trained warriors and everything else.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with roleplaying it out, and sending logs of that to the IMMs.

I disagree with some of what you've said. There are master assassins in-game and not all of them are completely secretive about it (find out IC.) There are more ways to practice backstab that you aren't considering. And as Sokotra has pointed out, it is probably more realistic to practice and learn combat in general before you start working on The Death Touch.

Just be patient and creative and you should be able to figure something out without having to stoop to 'killing poor people in alleyways for backstab practice.' By the way, extreme negative kudos for anyone who does that (not that I am suggesting that you would, Pale Horse.)

Quote from: "Cuusardo"There is absolutely nothing wrong with roleplaying it out, and sending logs of that to the IMMs.

But isn't there some rule that says you can only do that every 6 months? Or is that something else?

You're thinking about account notes requests.

The whole "log the RP and send it to the IMMs" doesn't sit well with me at all. This is a coded skill we're talking about, that is coded to improve upon use (and failure). Instead of actually using the "ride" skill, why not have people who don't have it, just RP it out and send a log to the staff? Instead of actually using their crafting skills, why not just send logs to the staff? In fact, since we can just send a log to the staff to get our skills boosted, why bother sparring, or using the coded commands for any of our skills at all? My answer, is that this isn't a MUSH. Most of our skills are coded, and those that are coded, -are- coded, so that players can actually use them. I think it's very sad to see someone tell a player trying to figure out a way to incorporate a coded skill into his character's life, to just "pretend" and send a log to the staff for a skill boost.

Personally I like the idea someone mentioned a few posts back. About focusing on a mark on someone's armor and attempting to hit that mark with their sparring weapon. Perhaps certain areas (sparring rings, certain "rooms" in alleys and other appropriate places) can be coded, so that if someone is trying to use a sparring weapon, in that designated area, with the backstab skill, it will place a single hit on the target with minimal (if any) damage, and not engage the pair in combat at all.

This way people who want to actually use that coded skill their character's skillset comes with, will have some appropriate and logical means to do so without having to try and track down a master assassin whose player may or may not log in at the same time or may or may not even live in the same city, and won't have to resort to "faking" the backstab routine and sending it to the staff for a skillboost.

I don't play a PC with that skill, but I've seen a couple who have it in action. Personally I think the echoes look really really silly when someone jumps out at a tregil with the backstab skill. I wouldn't mind seeing that changed too, so that characters with that skill, who choose to go hunting at times, can use their skill as an "aimed critical strike" rather than its current way, which results in that echo which may or may not be accurate for certain non-mamallian critters.

L. Stanson

Take a few moments and (god I love google) research how some assassins trained, your 'vital strike' is one of the last things you will ever train, and if you make an assassin and play for a while you will find youself with plent of chances to train it.

To an earlier post about the red dot on the armor... you're kidding right, because that is basically what all pcs are trying to do when they spar. Backstab is more the study as well as what to do when the knife is already sunk in. Plus we have to deal with the fact it needs to be hard to train or 80hp backstabs will become an everyday accurance. Play a long lived assassin and you may even learn a few other ic things about backstab that will make you appriciate that it isn't easy to max with a 1 day old character.

Quote from: "Cyrian20"Play a long lived assassin and you may even learn a few other ic things about backstab that will make you appriciate that it isn't easy to max with a 1 day old character.

I don't think I implied that I wanted to become a master of backstab in a hurry. My point was that training the skill is such a problem because of how it's coded. The obstacles are more OOC than anything IMO, and the potential power of a skill should not be what determines the methods of training. You don't tell magickers who can kill people in one spell that they can only practice it against certain targets and never in safety. If I was to come up with a solution, I'd make it possible to practice backstab up to a certain point, let's say 30% of its full potential, in sparring. This should be slow, not something that you'd train up as fast as kick or shield use or whatever, but it should be possible to get some training in the skill without having to actually go out and make an actual attempt at murdering something every time.

Sending in logs is not what I'd call a solution. I seem to remember being told that it's for situations where you can't raise the skill because of OOC issues such as being in a sparring clan but playing off-peak so you only get to spar vNPCs. It should never be the primary way of working on a skill.

Finding a teacher is not possible for everyone. There might not even be a master assassin in the game while you have your character, and then comes obstacles such as playtimes, living in opposite ends of the world, and the fact that they're probably not very likely to want to teach you at all. Even if you manage it, I've never had any luck with the teach skill. I've had my 1day recruit PC taught a skill by a 40day sergeant who was obviously up there skill-wise and got the message "they don't know any more than you".

So if the skill's potential power is what worries you, the solution is slowing down the progress, not taking away realistic methods of practicing it. Opinions obviously differ, but I refuse to accept that because a skill is meant to be deadly, training it without actually attempting a murder shouldn't be possible.

I honestly think Vanth said it best.

Quote from: "Vanth"There's a number of skills in game which are not easily practiced.  This is just another one of them.

Makes sense to me.

Quote from: "a foreign presence"So if the skill's potential power is what worries you, the solution is slowing down the progress, not taking away realistic methods of practicing it. Opinions obviously differ, but I refuse to accept that because a skill is meant to be deadly, training it without actually attempting a murder shouldn't be possible.

Maybe instead of the progress of skill advancement being slow, it could be fairly fast because of the inability to train it easily.  *shrug*  I'm not sure if that is the case, but compared to the power of the skill itself I imagine that it is okay how it is.  I do understand where you are coming from and have been frustrated as well when I feel like I have no way of training certain skills that would fit my character, but I don't think you need to attempt murder to train backstab.  From what Vanth said, I guess the skill isn't meant to be 'easily' trained... it is made that way for a reason.  I still think you have some completely viable options out there for training it without that much trouble.  I think you could use plenty of the options that 'borderline on twinking' as long as you RP'd the situation properly and with good IC reasons... that is the fine line between twinking and RP'ing.

I'm not saying that RPing out lessons is the only way to practice backstab.  No one should feel obligated to do this.  My point is that it is a valid option that should be kept in mind, rather than feeling that there is no way to train it.  If you don't want to do it this way, don't do this and go and find a coded way to practice.

I may be wrong, but sparring weapons don't come in the "stabbing" variety anymore, and I'm pretty sure that's why we no longer see backstab being practiced in sparring.

If you want to practice backstab, just backstab everything you want to fight with, as long as you're aware of the major lag after a backstab (backstabbing an NPC that may kill you in ten seconds is a bad idea). If you were going to fight a large rat, an insect-like scrab, and a stooped elf during your game session, then open up with a backstab instead of "kill <target>". Now you are raising backstab, just like everything else. What's the problem with this? There's so much talk about backstab being complicated to raise, but if you follow this system, you'll be raising as consistently as every other combat skill.

Now that I've spoiled the secret, may the 80 dmg backstab assassins fill up the game! It really isn't that hard a skill to raise, once you bury all the superstition surrounding it being a "twinky" skill. The only reason it's tough to raise is because of the long lag time after a backstab, which means hidden opponents or unexpected changes in combat can kill you dead during the lag time. This is a danger with the backstab skill in general, and isn't only limited to the raising aspect. An assassin with max backstab skill can still get massacred by a large black beetle because of the backstab lag. It's a dangerous skill to use against a target that you can't reliably kill in combat, and newly made assassins tend to have difficulty killing anything reliably. Fight weaker things, and you'll have a better chance of surviving to improve your skills. It's the same truth that applies to every other combat skill in the game.

Not that this is a stabbing weapon per se (maybe it is) but I'm sure "a crude, dull bone knife" would, realistically, be less damaging than a pointy-tipped wooden training sword.  So, theoretically, you can still spar backstab if you find an item described as being so shabby it couldn't possibly do any more damage than any other training sword.  There's lots of pisspoor weapons around.  It doesn't have to have the keyword "training" to be used in a sparring match.  I could spar with a branch or broken shovel handle if I really wanted.  Get inventive, I say.

Quote from: "a foreign presence"
So if the skill's potential power is what worries you, the solution is slowing down the progress, not taking away realistic methods of practicing it. Opinions obviously differ, but I refuse to accept that because a skill is meant to be deadly, training it without actually attempting a murder shouldn't be possible.

Agreed.

Edit: I realize this sort of contradicts what I said in posts after the fact. What I agree with here, is that it should be possible.  See below for details.

Quote from: "jstorrie"Just be patient and creative and you should be able to figure something out without having to stoop to 'killing poor people in alleyways for backstab practice.' By the way, extreme negative kudos for anyone who does that (not that I am suggesting that you would, Pale Horse.)

...Oh, but you are, my friend. Take care that you don't become said 'poor person in the alleyway'... :D

How about this then, a command that is exactly that, a non-lethal backstab. The thing is, it develops much slower than a proper backstab. Set the cap where you like, this is something I just thought up.

Something like this?

stab victim
You drive your dagger towards victim's ribs, stopping just short and pulling back.

Not sure for a fail, maybe the same message we have now.

Meh, just throwing out ideas.

It wouldn't be the same, Tri-clops. There is a difference when sparring, and fighting. While it would raise the skill a tiny bit, it's in the practise of the actual move where you make mistakes, and get better based on those mistakes.

Aye.

As many have said, backstab is a skill that is difficult to train.  As many have said, find a way to train it that doesn't involve 'practicing murdering' your sparring partner.  People have listed ways to accomplish this, and you have to simply pick one and do it instead of say that you don't want to.

I don't want to see any command that is a practice backstab.  I think it will make assassins, which shouldn't be a dime a dozen, more like warriors, which should be.

Bleh, I'm strongly against having any 'non-lethal' backstab, and even more so on 'sparring' backstab as some people mentioned. It's a killing move, not like kick or bash. Because of its potential, it's dangerous to both the victim and yourself if you attempt to practice it without the intention of killing. It's like practicing shooting a basketball without the intention of making it in the basket.

As a way of improving it, what better way than actually making baskets? Backstab shouldn't be the -primary- tool an assassin uses to accomplish their work, but in time, because it -is- a tool used in the profession, it'll get better. Don't worry so much about getting backstab to be a OHK, and instead focus on the roleplay and the experience of each assignment and attempt at accomplishing your jobs. Yeah, it'll be tough and time-consuming, but what good thing in life doesn't require hard work?

As I said, merely throwing out ideas. I would rather not have it in either, come to think of it, backstab is fine as it is.

The only way to train backstab is to try and kill people.

And yes, you have to try and kill a lot of people.

And yes, it is okay for you to go into the rinth to kill random alley folk to do this.

Just, be aware of the consequences.

It is only okay for your PC to go into the rinth to kill random alley folk if he has a decent reason to do so. If your PC's reason is "I want to be able to backstab really well," be fully aware that your character is an idiot, because this is an exceptionally idiotic motivation. Not that it's against the rules to play a moron, but if it's not what you had in mind, maybe reconsider your backstabbing plans.

Quote from: "jstorrie"It is only okay for your PC to go into the rinth to kill random alley folk if he has a decent reason to do so. If your PC's reason is "I want to be able to backstab really well," be fully aware that your character is an idiot, because this is an exceptionally idiotic motivation. Not that it's against the rules to play a moron, but if it's not what you had in mind, maybe reconsider your backstabbing plans.

I completely disagree. If the only way codedly you will ever become a reasonably adept killer is to kill, and if you want to be a reasonably adept killer for whatever IC or super-twink motivation you may have, then your only reasonable course of action is to attempt to kill.

You have three choices for such, a) A lawless area in the city b) A law enforced area in the city c) The desert

Depending on what the reasoning is, and what level of danger your confortable with, you'll make a choice you'll need to live with.   And you wouldn't an be idiot for making it, simply because there is no other option.


Edit to add:

Just a point here, it is not "wrong" to want to become good at a given skill. Training to be an assassin is no different the bynners training to be good fighters, or mages focusing their energies to become more powerful.

Unfortunately, backstab is powerful skill, and one that carries a taboo with it because it's primary use is to deal out death in a none to pleasant way. Because it's used to kill, there is only one way to practice it. Playing "tag" on your fried in an apartment, practicing at sparring sessions are all *unacceptable* because using backstab is a clear attempt to cause near fatal damage to another individual.

However, so is Archery.

You're not doing new players a service by making them feel like twinks for inquiring on how to get better at something in the the game. It is not "wrong" to practive backstab, it simply needs to be contained to realistic settings.

Joe's right.  If your friend would be comfortable with you shooting a bow at him from 30 paces, he should be fine with you practicing at murdering him.  If he wouldn't be happy with you shooting a bow at him, he shouldn't be happy with you trying to kill him.  It's that simple.

Also, I don't think he was suggesting that people go on murder sprees.  He was saying that if you want to become a good murderer, you have to practice being a murderer.  To that end, if you're willing to live with the consequences of being a murderer, go kill people.  It is, of course, easier to do this in lawless areas, but some lawless areas have their own drawbacks...like the 'Rinth.  People may very well notice you coming in every week or so to randomly murder someone for practice, and they may react to you based on these actions of yours.

The key here is to understand the repurcussions.  When you get good at backstab, when using the skill, you have the potential of outright killing someone.  Are you sure you want to let someone stab you, even with a pen, if you have an inkling that the one stab they inflict on you may cause enough damage to permanently disable, maim or simply kill you?

The 'rinth is pretty suicidal these days for anyone to be 'practicing' in, who hasn't already nearly mastered most fighting skills aside from backstab.

Quote from: "spawnloser"Joe's right.  If your friend would be comfortable with you shooting a bow at him from 30 paces, he should be fine with you practicing at murdering him.  If he wouldn't be happy with you shooting a bow at him, he shouldn't be happy with you trying to kill him.  It's that simple.

Also, I don't think he was suggesting that people go on murder sprees.  He was saying that if you want to become a good murderer, you have to practice being a murderer.  To that end, if you're willing to live with the consequences of being a murderer, go kill people.  It is, of course, easier to do this in lawless areas, but some lawless areas have their own drawbacks...like the 'Rinth.  People may very well notice you coming in every week or so to randomly murder someone for practice, and they may react to you based on these actions of yours.

The key here is to understand the repurcussions.  When you get good at backstab, when using the skill, you have the potential of outright killing someone.  Are you sure you want to let someone stab you, even with a pen, if you have an inkling that the one stab they inflict on you may cause enough damage to permanently disable, maim or simply kill you?

Thanks. Yes that is what I'm trying to say.

Quote from: "Clearsighted"The 'rinth is pretty suicidal these days for anyone to be 'practicing' in, who hasn't already nearly mastered most fighting skills aside from backstab.

Exactly. The rinth is so policed by PCs and Imms that if you want to practice Backstabbing every NPC you can find you will be sure that eventually get noticed and when you do, there are dire consequences.

I would wager to say that spam training backstab assassins in the rinth are at a MUCH higher risk then spam hunters.

The staff has been very clear on how *not* to train backstab. And as a result how to train backstab is very obvious. However, it comes with serious repercussions.

Vanth's quote still holds abundantly true. There are many skills in game that are difficult to train. Backstab is one of them.

Edit:

That being said though, I feel that the training of throw and archery though the use of a sparring dummy should be possible in the combat clans. I would like to see the use of sap and backstab allowed via training weapons, but only if the progress via this method was severely hindered.

IE a command like "flank" that could possibly raise an assassins ability to backstab in very tiny increments would be cool.

That also being said, there are other much more important things to be done, and with that being the case, and teh danger backstab potentially poses the current rules in place are sufficient.

Personally, I don't think it is wrong (if your a dirt poor 'rinther) to kill others in the 'rinth. Well, killing maybe, but using backstab to get by not so much.

backstab guy
fight ensues
guy crumples to the ground
em greedily crouches down beside ~guy, tugging various garments from ^guy body, before straightening and slipping away into the night.

And as said above, the IC consequences are nasty. Be aware.

Just a noobtwinks point of view on it though.

I'm not sure if this has been said already, but I haven't seen it.

I agree that backstabbing is striking at the vitals. I also agree that this can be practiced in sparring, as martial artists practice vital strikes at higher levels of training all the time.

However, I think a backstab is not -just- a strike to the vitals. The important difference that makes it backstabbing is doing it By Surprise, a state which cannot be reached with a prepared sparring partner.

Now, I realize that this only works as a half-reason why currently we cannot train backstabbing in sparring, because it does encompass vital strikes. However, I feel that when we combine this with the general social stigma (how do you think people even in Tuluk act when someone walks in and says, "Hi, I want to be an assassin!" act? I know, I've seen it) against assassins, for rp reasons as well backstabbing is extremely difficult to train.

However, there is the third option, (which works for you HGs out there too, so listen up) as to how to increase sparring or backstab skill. Roleplay the sessions, log them, and send them in with a Request for skill increase.

I must continue to strenuously disagree that it is reasonable for a PC to decide 'I want to be good at backstabbing!' and that follow that up with 'I will go attempt to kill large numbers of people so I can be good at backstabbing people!' It is absolutely different from practicing casting or crafting in that your character is killing other sentient beings, something even Zalanthans wouldn't do completely flippantly. It's also somewhat different from archery in that most characters don't practice their archery against town residents without provocation, they practice it against beasts or enemy soldiers or (if they're lucky, it seems) targets.

'I want to be good at backstabbing' is an exceedingly out-of-character motivation for a killing spree, one targetting NPCs or otherwise, and severely smacks of powergaming to me.

Quote from: "jstorrie"I must continue to strenuously disagree that it is reasonable for a PC to decide 'I want to be good at backstabbing!' and that follow that up with 'I will go attempt to kill large numbers of people so I can be good at backstabbing people!' It is absolutely different from practicing casting or crafting in that your character is killing other sentient beings, something even Zalanthans wouldn't do completely flippantly. It's also somewhat different from archery in that most characters don't practice their archery against town residents without provocation, they practice it against beasts or enemy soldiers or (if they're lucky, it seems) targets.

'I want to be good at backstabbing' is an exceedingly out-of-character motivation for a killing spree, one targetting NPCs or otherwise, and severely smacks of powergaming to me.

Try to think of it in a less coded sense. If a killer wants to be a good killer, they need to kill. Backstab is one option of killing a PC. There's several others. Backstab just happens to be a very lethal way of killing someone. If an archer wants to be good at archery, they're gonna need to shoot stuff.

As was said before, backstab and archery are very similar skills. Is it wrong to backstab NPC people in the rinth? Is it wrong for an archer to mow down NPC beasts? Your backstabber and archer are both killers. They're just hunting down different game. Both archery and backstab can be used on PCs as well and both can be fatal.

But does that make them wrong to use on NPCs? I don't think so. I think the consequences of using these skills on NPCs are realistic and enforced both by PCs and animated NPCs.

And if backstab isn't allowed during sparring, it isn't allowed in a lawless area and it's not allowed to take down beasties in the desert, where the hell is it allowed?

Some of my magickers decide they need to be better in the spell 'fart of doom' and they regularly practice -practice/tavern chatter/cooking/practice some more/cruising a bit in the bazaar/tavern chatter/practice.....- and they become good.. Often, fart of doom is as dangerous as backstab....
.......
Maybe there should be a way to practice backstab.. I never play assassins and I have no idea how too many blood-clad assassins will affect the game, though. Just my two 'sids.

Magickers should be scarier than assassins, though.  (shrug)

Quote from: "spawnloser"Magickers should be scarier than assassins, though.  (shrug)

Not because of their skills, necessarily. Macickers should be scary because they are the unknown, they are the mysterious that no one understands. People shouldn't actively fear assassins because they shouldn't expect to be a target (unless they are in a high political position), but assassins are still the trained killers, magickers are not. If you're going to fear them, fear assassins because of the certain death they bring, fear magickers because of the unknown.

With the few magicker exceptions, assassins should, imo, be the better trained killers.

Magickers are already scarier in my opinion.  Finding an assassin skilled enough to actually kill someone is slim to nil.  Finding a magicker who can kill -almost anybody- is pretty common.

Anyone ever read Pyramids by terry Pratchett?
The guys graduate from the assassins guild without ever having killed anyone. Pteppic knows what he's doing, he's a great assassin, he's just a little squeamish about the killing.

I'm pretty sure that you should be able to practice backstabbing like any other skill, that is without actually trying to kill someone. It's not that hard to decide where to strike and then do it, it seems that our backstab is more of a 'sneak attack' and that's the hard part.

While sparring isn't the right time to catch someone off guard, it's not like every backstab attempt should be a kill attempt.
You can succeed in the 'sneaking up' , aim to hit at the right spot and still stop the blow.
You guys make it sound like killing or seriously wounding someone with one stab is really hard. It's not. People get seriously wounded from being stabbed all the time. It's harder to find a way to put a knife into someone without doing some serious damage (that would likely kill the person without medical attention) than not to cause serious harm.
Think about it. A deep stab to the neck is more than dangerous. then there's lungs, intestines - all things that make you die VERY easily. Even on arms and legs you aren't safe, there's huge arteries and all that.

Granted, some things won't kill you instantly but it might take some time.

Quote from: "Beux"If you're going to fear them, fear assassins because of the certain death they bring, fear magickers because of the unknown.

Or fear them because significant portions of the playerbase seem to think it's realistic for everyone to randomly murder a hundred or two people just to get good at stabbing.

Quote from: "Nao"Anyone ever read Pyramids by terry Pratchett?
The guys graduate from the assassins guild without ever having killed anyone. Pteppic knows what he's doing, he's a great assassin, he's just a little squeamish about the killing.

I'm pretty sure that you should be able to practice backstabbing like any other skill, that is without actually trying to kill someone. It's not that hard to decide where to strike and then do it, it seems that our backstab is more of a 'sneak attack' and that's the hard part.

While sparring isn't the right time to catch someone off guard, it's not like every backstab attempt should be a kill attempt.
You can succeed in the 'sneaking up' , aim to hit at the right spot and still stop the blow.
You guys make it sound like killing or seriously wounding someone with one stab is really hard. It's not. People get seriously wounded from being stabbed all the time. It's harder to find a way to put a knife into someone without doing some serious damage (that would likely kill the person without medical attention) than not to cause serious harm.
Think about it. A deep stab to the neck is more than dangerous. then there's lungs, intestines - all things that make you die VERY easily. Even on arms and legs you aren't safe, there's huge arteries and all that.

Granted, some things won't kill you instantly but it might take some time.

I agree with this to some extent. My friend Denis is skilled marshal artist. I'm pretty sure the shit he studies in his s3cr3t basement dojo (or whatever they call it in kungfu) is pretty lethal. He's showed me one or two things, and I was like..ugh....that's pretty nasty.

Anyhow, he didn't learn it by killing people (i hope). He learned it by practicing with other students.  That being said, he learned how to strike vital organs, not sneak up on people in the dark and cut their throats. Without actually asking Denis to find someone on the streets to kill, there's no way of actually knowing if Denis is good killer or not.

It is my opinion, that in the real world you can study to be an assassin without actually having to kill. But you will not know if your training has allowed you to kill until you try.

The skill of "backstab" is misleading. You're not getting good at literally stabbing someone in the back. What you are getting good at, is the art of striking someone in a vital place with a small sharp object, without them realizing that were going to strike them. Or, striking them while they are focusing on something else. Sap is the same skill, but using a blunt object. It's subterfuge, it's trickery and it's not easily trained without a "real" experience.

You can however, train things like "where" to strike, or how to strike or what weapon to use, or becoming skilled with said weapon. In my opinion these things are *almost* all covered by the skills that support backstab. Like hide, sneak, slight of hand and piercing weapons.  I personally would like one day that for there to be a way to practice "strikeing vitals" and thus increase backstab. But it would need a separate command, like the nil target available to mages, that allowed gains in small increments to accommodate for the lack of real world application.

As it stands now, without a code change, if you want to be a trained assassin, first train these skills so you can survive an attempt on someone. But after that, you have to try and take someones life. It's really that simple. There are no other "creative" ways to become a better killer. You have to  study to kill, and then practice killing.

Again:  Practicing on your friend. Practicing on gurth. Practicing with a sparring weapon. Practicing on a sparring dummy. Practicing on jozhal. Practicing on your mount. All twinky.

Backstabbing a humanoid PC or NPC to see if you can rob and to take his or shit and then dealing with whatever IC consequences are the result of that. Not Twinky.

Do not confuse n00bs by telling them they are twinks for using backstab in a realistic setting. They aren't. Not more then hunter firing an arrow at a jozhal to get good at archery is a twink.

Now, backstabbing all day and night? Well, then you are a twink and the staff will hopefully handle you. This goes for any skill, backstab is not in a special "it's unrealistic to practice me bucket". If you drive a wagon all day and all night you're a pilot twink. If you spar all day and all night, your a combat twink.

Use backstab when you intend to kill.

Kill only when you have a real reason to do so.

That simple.

Quote from: "Help Backstab"Skill Backstab     (Combat)

This skill is a generic term for 'critical strikes' against an opponent. The victim of a backstab is not necessarily 'stabbed in the back'-- the attack could be from any direction. If your character successfully backstabs someone, the target has been 'hit in a vital location,' and will be badly injured, the severity of the injury depending on your character's backstab skill level.

Yes, it will take long-term planning and patience to be a skilled assassin.

You mean, it will take a long time to be skilled at backstab.

Assassin's and backstab are only loosely related. (outside of it being given to assassins in their skillset)

One time, my character was sitting out on the plains, resting after taking down a duskhorn, and all of a sudden, I get an emote mentioning some desert elf striking my character behind the ear.  Surprisingly, he missed his first attack.  Goes to show you what happens when you call your shots, eh?

It's then I realized that being good at hide and sneak doesn't mean you can sneak up right to some and gut them superspy-style.  This is where backstab comes in.  It's not simply striking vital organs, that's what every combatant in the Known World tries to do.  It's also the approach, the darting in past your target's defenses.  In that mindset, sparring and even hunting with backstab makes perfect sense, and please, don't tell me any of you would actually stoop so low as to take away one of an assassin's few combat skills while hunting.

Quote from: "jmordetsky"Backstabbing a humanoid PC or NPC to see if you can rob and to take his or shit and then dealing with whatever IC consequences are the result of that. Not Twinky.

If your reason for staging the robbing in the first place is just to practice backstab, though, then yes, it is absolutely powergaming. Claiming afterwards that 'oh I was just robbing guys' is just rationalization. You can rob PCs or NPCs perfectly well without gutting them on the street.

And as you've said, a large part of a backstab or sap attempt is keeping your cool and moving in silently without losing the element of surprise. That can be practiced just fine while hunting or fighting off gith or whatever.

Backstab is notably different than archery or sparring in that an average PC may have a rational opportunity to shoot or spar every day. I would go as far as to say, however, that even the most exceptional PC ought not to be killing several other people every day. I can see very few possible roles or concepts where regular backstab 'practice' against other city-dwellers is necessary or even plausible.

The documentation suggests a 'backstab' has three components.

1) getting the drop on your opponent (if you are good)
2) striking your opponent critically in that moment of surprise (if you are very good)
3) doing the kill without being detected (if you are exceptionally good)

I think these definitely preclude backstabbing during sparring. They don't necessarily preclude backstabbing while hunting.

Quote from: "jstorrie"

If your reason for staging the robbing in the first place is just to practice backstab, though, then yes, it is absolutely powergaming. Claiming afterwards that 'oh I was just robbing guys' is just rationalization. You can rob PCs or NPCs perfectly well without gutting them on the street.

Please feel free to discuss how an assassin without steal goes about robbing npcs with out incapacitating them. As for powergaming, if an archer goes hunting everyday because he's a "hunter" while under the pretense of really just wanting to practice "archery" then he's as twinky as the backstabber who does the same. You're clouding the conversation with hard line nonsense we're all aware of. As long as the actions by either are realistic, rational and IC, it's fine. IE we shouldn't be seeing Tor nobles crawling the alley's for backstab victims. But I would be surprised to see an eastside skinny doing so, and either should you.

Quote from: "jstorrie"

Backstab is notably different than archery or sparring in that an average PC may have a rational opportunity to shoot or spar every day. I would go as far as to say, however, that even the most exceptional PC ought not to be killing several other people every day. I can see very few possible roles or concepts where regular backstab 'practice' against other city-dwellers is necessary or even plausible.

From a pure code perspective a hunter in a tuluk and criminal in the rinth make their livings in very similar ways. I don't see an issue with RPing "gangs" or "gang members" who make their livings killing NPCs. In fact it's been discussed and condoned by the staff to kill the same NPCs (human or animal) as long as it's done in a realistic fashion. Ie not right after repop and not in giant ridiculous sprees. Muggers could easily be mugging per one person per few days and using backstab to do so. As stated before they have a lot more ic consequences to deal with but it's no different from hunter a we just discussed above.

Quote from: "jstorrie"The documentation suggests a 'backstab' has three components.

1) getting the drop on your opponent (if you are good)
2) striking your opponent critically in that moment of surprise (if you are very good)
3) doing the kill without being detected (if you are exceptionally good)

I think these definitely preclude backstabbing during sparring. They don't necessarily preclude backstabbing while hunting.

If we allowed backstabbing with spears, and it was considered an ambush or a trap, I'd be inclined to agree. However, next time you train as a ninja, and then take out a moose with a hunting knife by jumping out from behind a tree and placing it into it's jugular, I'll start to consider backstabbing a viable hunting option. I feel the same way about hunting with backstab as I do about hunting with a battle axe or claymore.

Yea, the code lets you do it, but it's not realistic and your probably jsut tyring to up your skills. That said, an outdoor equivalent to backstab that used hunting weapons and was meant for ambushing a person or an animal would be cool.

The reason backstab is limited to short stabbing weapons is because it's normally a close range stealth attack, which I don't think translates into hunting.

It's not a staff opinion obviously, but I'm not in love with the idea of backstabbing anything that isn't humanoid.

Is it rational to risk your life trying to backstab some dirt-poor Rinther? Would they even have anything worth taking? It seems like a mighty poor way to stay alive.

If a player wants to play a thug and mug people, I would heartily recommend the thug subclass which has skills geared for that purpose.

Quote from: "jstorrie"

If a player wants to play a thug and mug people, I would heartily recommend the thug subclass which has skills geared for that purpose.

I've heard the sap that the thug subclass gets is pretty worthless compared to the sap the assassin or burglar gets. At least for knocking people out.

Quote from: "jstorrie"Is it rational to risk your life trying to backstab some dirt-poor Rinther? Would they even have anything worth taking? It seems like a mighty poor way to stay alive.

If a player wants to play a thug and mug people, I would heartily recommend the thug subclass which has skills geared for that purpose.

It's completely rational if you live in the rinth and they have even a tad bit more then you. It's zalanthas dude. Not kindergarden.

Quote from: "jstorrie"Is it rational to risk your life trying to backstab some dirt-poor Rinther?

If you're a Rinther, you risk your life every day.  Everyone has this 'you or them' insentive. It's completely irrational. That's the Rinth for you.

Quote from: "jstorrie"Would they even have anything worth taking?

They might have a hunk of metal in their pocket, or maybe a hundred sids. Never know until you have them at your mercy, or just flat out kill them, perhaps by using backstab.

Quote from: "jstorrie"It seems like a mighty poor way to stay alive.

Ya, it's the Rinth.

I think you're being a bit hyperbolic if you're suggesting anything that doesn't involve murder is 'Kindergarten.'

Even Zalanthans will see some difference between killing an animal and killing a sentient being. There may not be a lot of respect for individual lives but killing should not be something entered into flippantly, especially not for the out of character justification of skill-maxing.

The rinth is the rinth man. There are places in the rinth that you *will* get paid *for* the killing someone.

Not their stuff, not their weapons...but them indiscrimitely killed. Not sure if you've played there much, but it's some pretty cold shit.

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17509&highlight=backstab

Just a note: My previous post was in thoughts of this.

Quote from: "Clearsighted"Something containing information about certain guilds branching certain skills.

Hey, man...would you mind editting the IC info out of your post?  Not everyone knows who branches that skill.

Sorry about double post.. This one's removed, the post's on the other page.

Quote from: "Helpfile of guild_assassin"Also late in their careers, assassins can learn how to effectively knock out an opponent from behind with a sharp blow to the head and take them elsewhere for committing their dirty work.

Quote from: "Helpfile of guild_pickpocket"Later on in their careers, pickpockets can learn how to effectively use a sap and knock their mark unconscious for removal of larger items, as well as silencing guards.

No info not available in the helpfiles given by clearsighted's comment.. About if thug's sapping is inferior or not? It's his thought as he said: It can be right or wrong.

Quote from: "Cenghiz"

Quote from: "Helpfile of guild_assassin"Also late in their careers, assassins can learn how to effectively knock out an opponent from behind with a sharp blow to the head and take them elsewhere for committing their dirty work.

Quote from: "Helpfile of guild_pickpocket"Later on in their careers, pickpockets can learn how to effectively use a sap and knock their mark unconscious for removal of larger items, as well as silencing guards.

No info not available in the helpfiles given by clearsighted's comment.. About if thug's sapping is inferior or not? It's his thought as he said: It can be right or wrong.

Indeed...the entire contents of my post came from either the help files or this board from searching on 'sap'.

Personally, I think the whole backstabbing issue is silly and always has been silly.  Backstabbing is easy.  Give me a frigging knife and I will show you how to kill another human in one hit.  Just sink the knife some where other then the arms and legs.  If they don't see the attack coming and don't defend, you will probably kill them  No, you don't need god like knowledge of anatomy or need to hit some secret spot that carries a person's chi.  Sliding a half meter long knife into just about any unarmored part on the human body is – if not lethal, going to put that person out of any future fights for a good long time.  Take a big old obsidian slab, and shove it through someone's neck and they are screwed.  Being an assassin is not striking a magical point on the body.

The challenge in being an assassin is getting close enough to land such a strike and bringing that blow in with full force so you can slide it in nice and deep.  There is also a limited aiming element in that you need to get it past any armor.  This is something that is trivial to train on another human.  Simply have a person sit in a seat with their back to the door.  Try and sneak into the room and tap them on the back.  If you can do that, you just killed them.  If they hear you enter or hear you draw and raise your weapon, then you failed.  You can even land a strike with a little force if you simply throw some armor over the spot you intend to hit.  If you can touch someone's neck with an obsidian dagger without them defending against the blow, you can kill them.

There are a lot of stupid ways to train to be an assassin.  With any sort of coded training being out, these stupid ways are the ways that people tend to in my experience (but who knows what I have missed).   You can take your silk clad assassin out into the desert and kill stuff.  You can go on patrols with organizations that do that sort of thing and backstab stuff.  You can act like a bad 'rinth NPC and back stab a few hundred people.  These are all methods that people have used and tend to be the most common way of doing it.

Personally, I think that all the 'learn by doing' methods are insane.  I doubt many feudal Japanese ninjas got awesome by murdering people on the street or patrolling for wolves and bandits to murder in the forest.  You learn by practice and commit the REAL act once or twice in your life.  A person who has made 5 REAL backstabbing attempts in his entire life should be considered a grizzly old veteran assassin.

So, how do you learn in game without resorting to the silliness of making hundreds of assassination attempts in your life or assassinating wolves (scrabs) and bandits (gith) while still following the game rules?  

If you want to play a REAL assassin, a person who trains their whole life for that one moment of truth and doesn't make wolf and bandit murdering apart of everyday life, I would suggest simply practicing through emoting.  Bonus points if you can find a friend to do it with.  Are you SOL if the imms never watch you and increase your skills?  Yup.  But you really shouldn't be playing to become a murdering machine to begin with.  If you don't enjoy the process with a character, you are probably wasting your time.

If you can find one friend, I could see some good times to be had in training assassins.  Imagine the sort of assassin games you could play with a partner.  You could take turns stalking each other through the city.  You could play glorified games of hide and go seek where the goal is to interrupt your buddy's daily business by poking him on the sweet spot of his neck without him noticing.  Hell, you could make training to be an assassin a full time job where one of you is always trying to stalk the other and mockingly land that killing blow where you shove a sharp shard of obsidian through his neck.  In addition to daily games,  you could also have more formal training where one person turns his back to the door and the other tried to sneak into the room as quietly as possible and land a blow without them hearing it.  When you are alone, you could practice stalking random people, like a beautiful man or woman (easy cover story if someone notices your sketchy behavior).  You could set up a simply dummy with an old piece of armor and practicing full forced swings on it to perfect your power and speed.

I see a lot of ways to train both alone and with a partner.  Sure, you still have to live with the "no coded backstabbing rule", but if you put on a good enough show about it, I imagine the imms will notice.  Keep them up to date with what you are doing, and hopefully when you finally go to use that backstab skill for real you will knock someone's head off.

Quote from: "Rindan"
If you want to play a REAL assassin, a person who trains their whole life for that one moment of truth and doesn't make wolf and bandit murdering apart of everyday life, I would suggest simply practicing through emoting.  

I agree with your entire post up until this point. Yes, it's silly, but without a coded alternative you're not left with much else. Emote training, personally I don't agree with, and I think it's poor advice to a new player. It overloads the staff and disheartens them if they don't get noticed.

Almost every method of learning a skill in this game -- any skill -- is silly and unrealistic.  Where does this obsessive compulsiveness towards the backstab skill come from?

Do you honestly think the way to learn how to weave baskets is by ruining 1,000 vines over and over until some day you can do it without failing?

Do you honestly think the way to learn languages is by listening to a bunch of garble over and over until -- voila -- you suddenly can speak it?  And on that note, anyone who is bilingual can confirm that the language code is entirely unrealistic and in no way represents true language acquisition.

You can apply this argument to almost any single skill.

It's a game.  More often than not one must work around the code in order to make what they are doing half-way plausible.  But if the code only lets me improve my skill by doing a certain set of activities, well then I'm sorry, you can bet I'll be doing that "certain set of activities" and, yes, I'll be doing it for the sole purpose of improving my skills.

It's called suspension of disbelief.  And if you've got a problem with how backstab is roleplayed out, you may as well have a problem with how every other skill is learned too.

I think you're completely missing the point if you think the aim of Armageddon is to increase your PCs skills, whether basket-weaving or backstabbing.

He's not missing the point.  Arm without skills is a Mush. The reason Arm rocks is because of coded skills mixed with RP.  Heaven forbid you acknowledge that and the RP nazi's nail you to a cross.

There is nothing wrong with ICly and OCly trying to up your skills. Even backstab.

And if you've ever RPed with Pantoufle you'd know he's very much not missing the point on RP, at all.

Okay, the guild helpfiles say something...but do people go around listing which subguilds get which skills, even though the helpfiles tell you which ones, but not in list form?  I don't think that we should be telling people who gets what in uncertain terms.  Let people read stuff and figure out what they figure out (in this regard) on their own.

Quote from: "jstorrie"I think you're completely missing the point if you think the aim of Armageddon is to increase your PCs skills, whether basket-weaving or backstabbing.

The point of Armageddon is to twink out all those phat lewt skills that don't show up on your skill list, like deception and subterfuge and conniving.  They're all under the role-playing tree.

Well, if you want to train backstab by doing nothing but emotes then thats cool. But I'm not going to do it...I'll send logs into the staff of practicing techniques etc, but if there is an IC reason to either murder, or mug someone, then I will also do that. Using the coded skill.

Quote from: "Pantoufle"

Do you honestly think the way to learn how to weave baskets is by ruining 1,000 vines over and over until some day you can do it without failing?

Do you honestly think the way to learn languages is by listening to a bunch of garble over and over until -- voila -- you suddenly can speak it?  And on that note, anyone who is bilingual can confirm that the language code is entirely unrealistic and in no way represents true language acquisition.

Those are WAY, WAY more plausible than backstab.

It is very possible to learn a language from listening and using it. It's also the most effective way once you've grasped the basics. The way I improved my english from 'barely able to put together a few sentences' went exactly like this. The best way to improve your vocabulary is reading or talking that language you want to learn. Fuck fancy grammar rules, they're something that might help you if you're just starting (which would be one or two years in school, much less when you're permanently exposed to the language), you don't need them anymore past that phase.
The language code is unrealistic because it scrambles letters instead of grammar and the like, but that seems to be the only way to code it and the effect is the same - if someone is less skilled in a language, it's harder to communicate with them via that language.

The same for basketweaving - it's definitely possible to learn this by trial and error if you don'Ät have a teacher. Got a teacher? Great, let them use the teach command and you don't have to figure out the basics all by yourself and just need to practice before you produce something that actually looks like a basket and not like some distant relative of a basket born in tchernobyl.

On the subject of learning languages, I agree with Nao.  To effectivly learn a language, you need the basics, then you need constant exposure to that language, which means listening..listening..and more..listening...And at the beginning (be you in Japan, Brazil, or Russia) it's all going to sound like gibberish (a.k.a Greek) until just one day, it snaps together in your head and you start making sense of what you're hearing...

At least, it was this way in my experience.  I spent two months getting the basics of Portugese pounded into my head, then moved to Portugal and had to live with the language all around me, 24/7.  About 3 months or so later, almost litteraly over night, I could actualy understand that these strange mouth-noises that people were useing was a language and that I understood it!  Sure it took a couple more months to fine tune and pick up more vocab. and learn the more annoying grammer rules, but about 5 to 6 months, I was fluent.

Quote from: "jmordetsky"He's not missing the point.  Arm without skills is a Mush. The reason Arm rocks is because of coded skills mixed with RP.  Heaven forbid you acknowledge that and the RP nazi's nail you to a cross.

There is nothing wrong with ICly and OCly trying to up your skills. Even backstab.

No. The hard-coded aspect of skills going up is there so that if your character lives a life in whch he or she would be learning things, that can be reflected statistically. You are looking at this backwards. If in the course of a character's activities he gets better at something, that is a nice little bonus. You should not turn things the other way around and tailor a character's life specifically to increase his skills. That is pretty cut and dried powergaming.

My point is that people 'hunting in the Rinth,' for example, are tailoring their characters' lives to gain an OOC benefit (skill-ups) when really they should just be letting their PCs live whatever lives are reasonable and letting the skill points fall where they may.

Quote from: "jstorrie"

Quote from: "jmordetsky"He's not missing the point.  Arm without skills is a Mush. The reason Arm rocks is because of coded skills mixed with RP.  Heaven forbid you acknowledge that and the RP nazi's nail you to a cross.

There is nothing wrong with ICly and OCly trying to up your skills. Even backstab.

No. The hard-coded aspect of skills going up is there so that if your character lives a life in whch he or she would be learning things, that can be reflected statistically. You are looking at this backwards. If in the course of a character's activities he gets better at something, that is a nice little bonus. You should not turn things the other way around and tailor a character's life specifically to increase his skills. That is pretty cut and dried powergaming.

My point is that people 'hunting in the Rinth,' for example, are tailoring their characters' lives to gain an OOC benefit (skill-ups) when really they should just be letting their PCs live whatever lives are reasonable and letting the skill points fall where they may.

Um, no shit. We're not discussing that. We're discussing if backstab can is "a skill that can be used in the course of your character activities."

And no. People hunting in the rinth are not tailoring their lives to gain an OOC benefit. You've obviously not played much there if you think that.

I have played quite a bit in the Rinth, thank you.

We are discussing deliberately training backstab. Check the thread title.

Quote from: "jstorrie"I have played quite a bit in the Rinth, thank you.

We are discussing deliberately training backstab. Check the thread title.

Yes, and a hunter who hunts, whether he is OCly hunting to do so, or not, is in fact, training his ability to hunt. The same is applicable to backstab.

Pants was simply saying that the mindless neurosis that surrounds and seperates backstab from the same treatment doesn't make sense.

Because one makes a living in said way does not mean that they have "constructed a character for the purpose of furthering their skills" as you've voiced. Especially in the context of specfic areas, aka the rinth.

Are you really trying to say that muggers or for that matter raiders who make their livings off the blood of other humanoid races are unzalanthan?
Have you *played* in allanak? Pits filled with bodies? Filthy rotten beggars that will kill you for a scrap of clothing worth  a reasonable amount in a local shop? Piles of bodies baking in the sun? Gith and d-elf raiders around every corner.

What game are you playing dude?

But players who app these sorts of darker side characters and then use the coded skills they're given are only doing so for teh purpose of boosting specific skills?

Um, no. To say so is irrational and illogical. You're chasing "twink" ghosts and projecting. Honestly, backstab is part of the game, using backstab is part of the game and using backstab the same way a hunter users archery is part of the game.

It is what it is, get over it and move on.

A mugging involves threatening someone and forcing them to hand over their goods. What you are describing are murderers, not muggers, and even in Zalanthas this is an important distinction.

I have also played quite a bit in Allanak, thank you.

NPC muggers sure don't mind using backstab.

So? That has no bearing on what's appropriate PC conduct. NPCs sure don't mind endlessly sewing, never emoting, and never talking, either.

At this stage in the thread, it sounds to me as though a number of people are simply disagreeing not to prove any grandiose point but rather simply for the sake of disagreeing.  As if it would be too much for one person to concede by saying, "Alright, yeah.  Some people play this game because they enjoy using their skills and have a desire to increase their skill percentage.  Provided that you do so within the heart of the game and that you are RPing out your skill acquisition, there's really nothing wrong with that."  Because ultimately, that's what this entire discussion boils down to, whether you use the backstab skill or the cooking skill as the forefront of your argument.

You cannot exactly impose a mental philosophy or attitude towards the game on other people.  I have both played virtually skill-less characters and characters who dedicated themselves to improving their (*gasp* dare I say it) CODED abilities.  From players to staff, there are those who are more keen on enjoying the coded side of this game than others.  You cannot force them to change their outlook on how and why they are improving their skills.  As long as they are still playing their character realistically and not violating the boundaries of realism in their endeavors (such as repeatedly stealing from an NPC who catches you on the first attempt), there's really nothing anyone can do about it.  Moreover, if someone is indeed RPing their skill acquisition, no one can prove whether they are doing it because they care only for the betterment of the MUD and improvement of its reality or because deep down inside they dare to just want to play a game, have fun and work towards having a powerful character.

jstorrie, just so we're clear...even characters like to get better at what they do and practice it so that they can.  Sure, players like to have their characters get better at what they do, but that doesn't mean that someone is being a twink just because the character is practicing what they do.

Oh man. I spam practise my floristry skills, all day every day. One day I'm going to be leetest florist in the Known World and pwn ALL OF YOU.

Beware the wrath of the florist.

Quote from: "jstorrie"So? That has no bearing on what's appropriate PC conduct. NPCs sure don't mind endlessly sewing, never emoting, and never talking, either.

Just as a last knife into this dead kank of a thread.

A mugging is mugging whether you threaten or just plain kill the person.

Now, feel free to "threaten" and "ask" an npc for their shit all you want. Once in I dare say that in 100 attempts, an Imm who feels bad for your lonely existance will animate one, and you'll have a good scene.

The rest of the times will go something like this.

say (waving a dagger at ~victim) Give me your shit!

[silence]

say (waving a dagger at ~victim) Give me your shit!

[silence]

say (waving a dagger at ~victim) Give me your shit!

[victim walks east]

At this point, I'd say it's good and fair for you to backstab the fucking NPC and get on with your life.

Now, PC's different story. Some of my favorite RP has been on the giving or receiving end (haha, giving or receiving end) of a raiding or a mugging, provided everyone plays nice.


As an aside: Vote yes for a "threaten" command.


:goes home to hang himself.

Heh. And I'm pretty sure the one time that an imm does animate the NPC, it'll end with you getting your arse kicked.

It could just be my character tends to attract trouble owing to his occupation and demeanor (though I've certainly never tried mugging a random NPC or getting into a fight I could avoid, and the twinkiest thing I've ever done was skin some corpses without emoting), but I've had quite a few imm interactions and *all* of them were hostile. Not in a bad way...I.E, I /loved/ it OOCly, but they all had a negative impact on my character ICly. So I don't think any imms are going to be making anyone's mugging easier. ;)

Edit: Edited to clarify that not all my NPC interactions were hostile (such as clan related stuff, or trading in an mis-purchased item) But I imagine what we're discussing here is the sort of random NPC interaction you get while in semi-dangerous places doing semi-dangerous things. And I loved them all! Bad or good.

Quote from: "Clearsighted"Heh. And I'm pretty sure the one time that an imm does animate the NPC, it'll end with you getting your arse kicked.

It could just be something I'm doing wrong (though I've certainly never tried mugging a random NPC or getting into a fight I could avoid, and the twinkiest thing I've ever done was skin some corpses too fast), but I've had quite a few imm interactions and *all* of them were hostile. Not in a bad way...I.E, I /loved/ it OOCly, but they all had a negative impact on my character ICly. So I don't think any imms are going to be making anyone's mugging easier. ;)

Honestly though if you play off peak and you're pretty isolated you start to invite the beatings.

I might go as far to say as I've considered doing some unrealistic shit just *so* something cool will happen.

I know the feeling very well jmordetsky.

Bah. Backstab anyone you want. Anytime, anywhere, for any reason.

Just don't expect him to NOT be upset with you for trying to steal his kidney with a sharp, pointy stick.

I have to come forward on this topic though I have been hesitant to do so since its beginnings, when a foreign presence posted it.

I have played a few assassins, and I play one currently under the new combat code. It surely would be in my interest to make backstab easier to train right? Wrong. Under no circumstance do I believe it should be easier to train. Under no circumstances do I think that assassins should be any more advantage than they already have, and trust me over the past 6 months, they have become more and more powerful, without any meaningful reduction to their potential.

With a warrior, a lot of the time you can run in with minimal planning, even in a group effort, and execute the tactics and strategies that will allow you victory. The skills can be straight forward. With an assassin however, things are not straight forward. To be honest, my time isn't spent finding new ways to practice my backstab so much as actually figuring out ways to totally own the mark in under 6 seconds, whethre the mark be in a tavern, a street, a night time alleyway, their own apartment, outdoors, whatever. Not just to kill of course, but to be a) unseen and b) get away from the scene of the crime without consequence.

So really I would say that most of my time as playing assassins has been really a matter of being a psychologist than a psychopath. You have to study people, time yourself, trained your accuracy, made sure payment/reward is secured and that you haven't been sent on a suicide mission.

As for accuracy, I reject the idea that you can stab someone anywhere not on legs or arms and they will die. This is fiction. There is a chance, of course, but the reason you usually see someone in the papers having died from multiple stab wounds is because that is what it will take. A single stab hurts, can cause problems, can even make you bleed to death after an hour but it's not exactly what we are looking at for backstab.

In ninjitsu there are accurate, trained strikes that cause instant death. For instance, striking the kidney properly and tearing it will lead to unavoidable death typically after 12 seconds. The kidney filters toxins out of your blood, so if it is harmed in such a fashion, your body poisons itself quite dramatically.

There was a guy as well who recently got a sting ray's stinger through his heart. The reason he lived? He didn't pull it out. The heart is a very strong muscle in your body and if you stab a knife into it, there's a good chance it'll get stuck there. If it's stuck, instant death doesn't occur. Why? Because it suctions around the blade tightly, preventing the internal bleeding. Remove the blade, and the heart muscle will violently pump blood not only into the body but out of it in many cases, again, quite dramatically.

So an assassin may indeed do a strike to the heart that will kill potentially in under 8 seconds, but they need to know exactly what to do to have a chance of executing this repeatedly.

There is a place on the neck, where your skull and spine connect. The spin goes into the skull at this point and inside connects to the medula oblongata and the rest of the brainstem. Shoving a knife upward into this hole properly will sever the spine from the brain and death will typically occurs in about the time it takes for the person to fall down, paralized and unable to breathe or supply enough oxygen to the brain through blood. So, death in perhaps 2-3 seconds, and again, quite dramatically.

If you believe you can sneak up on someone, execute an attack like that and disappear without a trace without years and years of training, you are deluding yourself without question. If you believe your character can 'practice' on someone without hurting them, you don't understand what exactly your character is practicing. You really have to get a 'feel' for it, even after years of theory to get to the Zalanthan level of total badass, which is a grim task indeed!

I believe that a truly worthy assassin begins to feel that way between 30-40 days if they have been pursuing their trade vigilantly and discretely. And though spawnloser's opinion is that magickers should be by default scarier than assassins, I personally disagree and would suggest he hasn't ever really had to deal with an assassin who has gotten to this level of ability. Every old character, 'mundane' or not, is able to attain the same epic quality as powerful magicker. Any opinion otherwise is just that: 'opinion'.

The staff over the years has made many changes to this class, and it is perhaps one of the most closely monitored. A smart, careful assassin can literally kill virtually any target he/she wants, though perhaps less so if he/she wants to get away with it.

I would regard any tweak to backstab to make it easier to learn as completely hostile to the gaming environment. If you want to go 'collect information' with a character, burglars and pickpockets are also great. The assassin class deserves respect and loyalty. If you are playing one, commit to it, but don't you dare believe that the ability to wreck havoc in the hearts and minds (and aortas and brainstems) of other PCs should just be handed over to you.

Yang, you misinterpreted what I said.  You are assuming that I said we the players should be scared of magickers more than assassins, as in in an OOC manner.  This seems to be the entire reason you've put forth for why assassins should be feared, their coded abilities and how they can apparently kill anyone with those coded abilities.

Okay, sure, assassins are great.  We players should have healthy respect for a long-lived and well-practiced, well-played assassin.  Again, this is not what I was talking about.

Think in character.  Characters, the people that live on Zalanthas, not Earth, should be scared of a magicker before an assassin any day.  Zalanthans know what an assassin does, stealthily kill people.  They don't know what magickers do beside make pacts with demons, eat babies and turn the blood in one's veins to acid.

Quote from: "spawnloser"Yang, you misinterpreted what I said.  You are assuming that I said we the players should be scared of magickers more than assassins, as in in an OOC manner.  This seems to be the entire reason you've put forth for why assassins should be feared, their coded abilities and how they can apparently kill anyone with those coded abilities.

Okay, sure, assassins are great.  We players should have healthy respect for a long-lived and well-practiced, well-played assassin.  Again, this is not what I was talking about.

Think in character.  Characters, the people that live on Zalanthas, not Earth, should be scared of a magicker before an assassin any day.  Zalanthans know what an assassin does, stealthily kill people.  They don't know what magickers do beside make pacts with demons, eat babies and turn the blood in one's veins to acid.

I did understand what you meant, and I disagree with such a sweeping statement implicitly. It is your opinion, and perhaps the cultural norm within some groups or societies on Zalanthas, but is by no means true enough for you to argue with me about it. (man me and typos today!)

The documentation for the game makes broad sweeping statements all the time.  We all know that there are exceptions and assuming that I am stating this as a hard and fast rule to which there are no exceptions is silly.

It is the cultural norm, not in some, but a majority of societies.  Those societies that have this norm also contain those with the largest populations, like Tuluk and Allanak.  Some societies do not have this norm, and I didn't think this needed to be said.

Still I still maintain that you seem to be saying that assassins should be feared for their coded abilties, and I think this is something that I should argue with.  Most normal people will rarely do anything deserving an assassin's attention, and thus would have little fear of receiving such attention.  Most Zalanthans also don't know that code dictates their lives. ;)

Quote from: "spawnloser"The documentation for the game makes broad sweeping statements all the time.  We all know that there are exceptions and assuming that I am stating this as a hard and fast rule to which there are no exceptions is silly.

It is the cultural norm, not in some, but a majority of societies.  Those societies that have this norm are also some of the most populace, like Tuluk and Allanak.  Some societies do not have this norm, and I didn't think this needed to be said.

Still I still maintain that you seem to be saying that assassins should be feared for their coded abilties, and I think this is something that I should argue with.  Most normal people will rarely do anything deserving an assassin's attention, and thus would have little fear of receiving such attention.  Most Zalanthans also don't know that code dictates their lives. ;)

The fallacy of your argument is that the people I am describing as being as fearsome or more so in whatever instances -are NOT the norm-, because they have brought their perhaps hundred day characters into an epic or legendary position. So I think you misunderstood me, and again, your argument doesn't make sense at all in that light, I'm afraid. But if you still want to derail this post from the obvious and original topic, be my guest.[/b]

Yang, becoming a skilled assassin certainly something that is hard to achieve and takes a great deal of practice and planning.  That said, your entire post  ignores the far more basic question beyond "are assassins powerful" or "how do you assassinate someone".  The basic question that was asked and wasn't answered is "how do you train backstab in a way that is realistic".  This isn't some philosophical question; this is a real question.  

If your goal is to play a "real" assassin, what is the "right" way to train?  Assassins DO train.  No one in their right mind is going to pick up a knife for the first time and try and stab someone.  So, how do you train this one skill?  I have seen four answers as to how you train without coded sparring, if someone else has a concrete answer, please do add it.

1)  Any way you can.  It is okay to wander into the 'rinth and whack some poor vagrant on the back to learn how to better kill another person.  Wandering into the 'rinth once a week and seeing if you can kill someone is an a-okay way to go about learning how to be an assassin.

2)  Contrive reasons to use backstab and learn that way.  This means that you might join the Byn or Kurac and go out on patrols so you can backstab Gith and scrabs.  You might start your life as a "hunter" who backstabs Carru and anything else with a pulse.

3)  Only use backstab when you would realistically use it.  Only make the attempt to backstab when you truly and honestly mean to murder someone and have a good reason to do it.  If you are an assassin for hire, this means that you would only make a backstab attempt when paid.  If you only have 5 contracts in your life, then you will only ever try backstabbing 5 times in your life.

4)  RP the training, cross your fingers, and hope that the imms give you a skill boost.  RP practicing technique on partners and power on dummies.  Break the components of a good backstab up into things you can train without harming a human and RP it out.  Don't go looking for reasons to backstab things.  Don't go hunting scrab or join the Byn just to try and slam a dagger between a scrab's spin.

If someone can offer up an alternative to those 4, please do post.  Those are the only 4 I have ever seen and I find them all rather unsatisfying.  I personally think that only the 4th option makes any real sense.

Option 3 may as well not be listed at all, because a) it will never improve and b) it will be such a poor skill at that level that you'll never be able to get it to work when you do come upon one of your "rare contracts".

Also, with respect, I think enough players on this thread have indicated that they don't want to have to rely on the staff for a skill boost.  I don't need the imms to help out when I want my contact skill to go up - I just use it enough times.  So too should it work with backstab and any other skill.  Moreover, you can be sure that the staff won't give you a significant boost no matter how much RP you invest into it.  You're also very likely never going to "max out" the skill this way either (let alone achieve a decent level).  That, in my opinion, rules out option 4 as well.

A lot of aspects of hunting in the game in no way parallel the realities of actual hunting (even with animals comparable to real world animals).  Instead, you're using coded tricks to succeed.  The same can be said of learning languages and many other parts of the game.  I don't get where this inexorable fixation with backstab comes from.  It's a skill, yes people want to learn it and get better at it, no it shouldn't be an easy task to achieve.  But it's not like the methods currently employed to get better at backstab are any more far fetched or unrealistic than those used to raise other skills.

I like the fourth option best myself, since the others have their individual IC flaws. Namely:

1) Whacking people in the 'rinth isn't a 'controlled environment'. People in training have those, so that they can learn, not die. 'rinthers might be good subjects, but not in their native conditions, they'll kill you soon enough. (Plus it just seems wrong - not from a viewpoint sympathizing with the people, but even from the viewpoint of an amoral killer - it doesn't teach like it should.) You might do it a few times, as a real-world test, eg, see if you can get in, backstab someone, and get out without being seen or caught, but the entire idea is way too dangerous for it to be a viable training option IG. (Assassins don't want to risk dying more than anyone else.)

2. Killing beasts does not teach you how to kill humanoids. The points of striking and weakness are different.

3. Backstabbing only on the job isn't training, that's doing. Distinction being, if you only tried to learn how to drive a car when you needed to go down the highway, and never got behind the wheel otherwise.

That said, I think I might have a slightly viable fourth option.

Join an organization of some sort.

I could see, especially in Tuluk, small organizations for the training of assassins. After all, up there disappearances are part of the culture, and neither the templars nor the nobles want to run the risk of hiring an incompetent. Perhaps the fee for the training could be something along the lines of a quota of jobs ("I'll teach you how, then you kill Lady Winrothol, Lord Tenneshi, and that annoying bard they both patronize") using dregs and convicts as guinea pigs. Some of the disappeared people could even be thrown in the pens to be used as training dummies. Plus, one could use corpses for some applications, such as showing anatomy, and there could even be games where a particularly sensitive convict is set loose, but the assasins are set on his heels (with prizes for the winner!).

Down south, that'd be harder, but I could see setting up such a structure within, say, The Guild or even one of the Houses (I have no IC knowledge about any of those mentioned organizations, so this is just conjecture) using captured 'rinthers or unsatisfactory arena convicts or even slaves.

Of course, what I just mentioned would require some enterprising players to set them up.

I favour a little of two (in the sense that you're training being sneaky and ambushing things), a lot of three, a dash of four and Tisiphone's suggestion - but I don't think I need to stamp out another paragraph about how I think option one is pretty ridiculous.

1. One may seem wrong, but I know for 100% fact that a lot of the schools I have trained with will have new but quickly rising students get in a street fight so they know if they freeze up when it isn't training. So while I would word it different, one is a viable option that I see absolutely nothing wrong with.

2. It could be a different backstab, I once had an equivalent skill with no sneak or hide skills so I rp'd it as my super ninja speedy strike with one character and a martial technique with another. So while some argue this is again viable if you aren't role-playing it as your character comparing the scrab to a human (the gith should be great practice though)

3. This one is great, in fact out of the handful of truly dangerous assassins I have seen , or one of them I even played, that were truly dangerous; nearly all trained this way.

4. You can do more then cross your fingers, you can log and send it in and wait (I waited ten days before but got a nice bonus -including- props for the stuff I did during those ten days so I wouldn't have to do it again)

2 and 3 are your practical ways to go. But don't discount handling people in the alleys if it's IC. It's more ic for you do so, then it is for you to hunt if your a city elf or something.

I still don't love backstabbing animals, but I recently found a spear that allows backstab. Sooooo...I may stand corrected on that front.

Four is great if thats your thing, but it's certainly not definite. Solo RP is like masterbation. It's fun for while, but after a while you'll want the real thing. And if you wanted to RP all your skills, you could just find a mush to play.

Noone is going to gain any reasonable proficiency backstabbing NPCs in the 'rinth. That's probably how most assassins die horrible deaths before getting past their first or second day.

If someone does manage it in the 'rinth, more power to em. They clearly surmounted incredible odds. Staff keeps a close eye on that kind of stuff anyways.

I've never once been in an even remotely shady situation where there wasn't a staffer paying attention and watching. So I can't imagine anyone not only surviving, but getting away with practicing backstab in an unrealistic manner. So if someone has the sand to hunt down super-powered 'rinthers...Good for em. 10 day warriors can get slaughtered by some stuff in there.

Not saying it's a good thing to go in there and go hogwild without IC motives. But that's the case for everything.

But it would seem to me that those who do are basically suiciding themselves anyways. There's noone in the 'rinth building a meat-eating super assassin from day one, backstabbing 10 people a day. They try it once or twice then get mercilessly slaughtered while wailing piteously.

The only time I can see the 'rinth being a good hunting ground is when an Assassin is approaching the 15 day mark. And by then...Well. You're not going to get away with jack shit even if a 2 day'r would.

So really. Just use it in the course of normal work, or send in logs to the staffer who handles requests for independent PCs. There used to be someone specific who did.  That's what I would do.

Quote from: "jmordetsky"
Four is great if thats your thing, but it's certainly not definite. Solo RP is like masterbation. It's fun for while, but after a while you'll want the real thing. And if you wanted to RP all your skills, you could just find a mush to play.

It is not power solo-role-play, it is simply (made up scenario) I usually login about 15-30 minutes before the rest of my byn unit so I solo role-play with a group of mercs and practice takedowns, locks, and chokes (subdue). Then you ask the staff for a bonus to subdue after you do it for a while. What else would you do with the time anyways?

Yay, I feel appreciated now that I'm in someone's sig. :D

In more serious news. Now I want to make/modify the organizations talked about...but I can't, since I can't actually connect to Arm.

Which means I want you all to do it for me! Go make assassins now and band together to take over the world!

On a seperate note, though, solo rp may not be for some people, but 'tis currently the 'best' (most often IC justified) way to train backstabbing, and the staff is pretty generous with skill boosts.

Quote from: "jmordetsky"Four is great if thats your thing, but it's certainly not definite. Solo RP is like masterbation. It's fun for while, but after a while you'll want the real thing. And if you wanted to RP all your skills, you could just find a mush to play.

You can RP training without it being solo RP.  If anything, I would think that would be far more enjoyable to do it with a partner.  Two would-be assassins who team up to train on each other could devise countless RPed assassin games that all stop short of using the backstab code.  To name a few:

1)  Have a partner sit with his back to a door.  Sneak in, and see if you can tap him on the back of the neck without him hearing you.

2)  Have a game where one person is the 'victim' and gets lost in the city and pretends to be a mark.  The other assassin has find him and tap him on the back of the neck without being seen.

3)  Make it a running game where you try and sneak up your partner and tap him without being seen.

4)  Practice together on dummies your power and accuracy and criticize each other's attempts.

Further, I think the real 'fun' of RPing training would go well beyond training just training backstabbing.  With a partner, you could devise a lot of other "games" based around teaching assassination and information gathering.

It only has to be solo RP if you make it that way.

I like Rindan's line of thinking, and there are also fairly acceptable coded assassin games that one can come up with. A lot of the later work will require a partner, which is in act one reason why a master assassin WOULD take on a younger, less experienced assassin, so long as the relationship was one that could be trusted. I think the main reason I've rejected this kind of arrangement in the past was generally because I didn't believe the other character would last long. A lot of rogues die fast doing silly things (just as warriors and rangers do, I suppose).

Just a note that backstabbing doesn't necessarily mean a stab in the back in terms of a human. Any critical point to a being is considered a backstab, as per say the docs. So, backstabbing animals -is- a viable option, you would just need to rp applying your backstabs to animals to backstabbing human counterparts.

Quote from: "Rhapsody of Zalanthas"Just a note that backstabbing doesn't necessarily mean a stab in the back in terms of a human. Any critical point to a being is considered a backstab, as per say the docs. So, backstabbing animals -is- a viable option, you would just need to rp applying your backstabs to animals to backstabbing human counterparts.

Personally, I think that back stabbing animals as a training method is silly.  You might as well paint some targets on a dummy and stab at those.  I think that backstabbing animals is a crutch used to get around the fact that backstab is close to impossible to train in a realistic way - especially if you can't codedly backstab inanimate targets and aren't allowed to backstab other humans in training.

I am not the RP police so take my beliefs with a grain of salt, but my personal belief is that if you are going for a traditional back stabbing for money assassin, the way to go is to RP train.  Even in RPed training (especially with a partner) you can improve all of your skills except backstab without the help of any staff intervention.  Further, I think that focusing on the RP of learning to stalk and kill other humans will help to enforce an assassin mentality instead of a "build up the skills by killing NPCs" mentality.

I understand the desire to build up the skills to be an assassin.  Why be an assassin if you never actually get to assassinate someone?  Despite this, I think that a lot of people that go down this road try and race to the end without enjoying the in-between.  For me personally, the characters that I have enjoyed the best were not ones that were necessarily the most powerful when they died, but the ones that enjoyed the journey they went on from day one.  Especially in an assassins journey, the chances of dying are high enough where you are going to be sourly disappointed if you only find happiness when you are a killing machine.  For that reason, I would advocate taking the RPed approach that doesn't resort to hunting down animals or joining a group to go backstab Gith.

Quote from: "Rindan"
... in an assassins journey, the chances of dying are high enough where you are going to be sourly disappointed if you only find happiness when you are a killing machine.  For that reason, I would advocate taking the RPed approach that doesn't resort to hunting down animals or joining a group to go backstab Gith.

Or you could be a dwarf assassin whose best friend was killed by a tablelands gith, and whose focus becomes to learn enough to infiltrate the gith base and assassinate their leader, in the meantime having an overwhelming and morbid interest in the exact anatomy of gith, and capturing them to learn their secrets and weaknesses.

The point is just that you should respect the game enough to fully justify your coded actions in character, but that using the code to advance coded skills is far from criminal. I believe both the RP and the code can be fun, which is exactly why I play armageddon rather than a MUSH: because it combines these two things nearly seamlessly, and certainly better than most MUDs or mmmmmmMMOLRPGs's I've found. There are other reasons (obviously) I play armageddon, but I think that is a fairly weighty one for me, having started on H&S muds when I was very young.

On the other hand, of course, removing yourself from the skills and going purely RP is commendable, but I don't think that the attitude of looking down on those who play the other way, with more involvement in the code is justified. The only thing we should be wary of is coded actions taken outside of the context of the role being played, and we have names for that: powergamer, twink, newb, code abuser and the staff almost always had a fairly enlightened approach to dealing with these.

Quote from: "Yang"The only thing we should be wary of is coded actions taken outside of the context of the role being played, and we have names for that: powergamer, twink, newb, code abuser and the staff

Wow didn't realize people had that opinion of the staff :twisted:

Besides, misquoting people for the most part I would go with the advice that there is a time and place to practice backstab, and for the most part it's called the Rinth. Walk in there and you'll find plenty of NPCs that will do the same to you if you don't do it first.

Quote from: "daedroug"

Quote from: "Yang"The only thing we should be wary of is coded actions taken outside of the context of the role being played, and we have names for that: powergamer, twink, newb, code abuser and the staff

Wow didn't realize people had that opinion of the staff :twisted:

Besides, misquoting people for the most part I would go with the advice that there is a time and place to practice backstab, and for the most part it's called the Rinth. Walk in there and you'll find plenty of NPCs that will do the same to you if you don't do it first.

Yeah, I mean, if this was the Idle OOC Chat this might be funny but I don't appreciate the misquote.

What I think the all of you are getting hooked on is that those who choose the assassin guild are not necessarily assassins.  Backstab is not wholly the domain of professional murderers.  Rejoice!