Armageddon General Discussion Board

They didn't already? Feck me in the chalton ass.

I wonder if hard magickal hits also daze, too.. You should be dazed when 60 points are sliced from you with a single fireball.

Currently magickal affects don't daze you, but this is something we will look at adding.

I like it! Makes hg's even more powerful, hehehe. I can't wait to play another hg again so I can try out just how well it works.

Realistic. Combat was already pretty tough... but, really, if a tembo bites off your arm, you should need a moment to collect yourself.
I like it.

: <3's the code change

Helps to make hgs more dangerous as they should be. That's cool.

This.  Rocks.


Seeker

NUTS!

Having just tested this out.. omgwtfholyshitkthximms.

Daze melts faces!

Hmm, seems like it would give a little advantage to two-handed fighters.

Though, I have one question, can you flee while in the dazed state?  I'd hate to be caught up in a loop and die because a group suddenly insta-attacked me as I walked in.

Quote from: "Dalmeth"Hmm, seems like it would give a little advantage to two-handed fighters.

Though, I have one question, can you flee while in the dazed state?  I'd hate to be caught up in a loop and die because a group suddenly insta-attacked me as I walked in.

Good question, if you cannot flee while in the dazed state then it would create some instant death situations.

An armored bahamet has arrived from the north.
An armored bahamet visciously bites you on the head doing frightening damage!

>flee

You are too dazed to escape!

An armored bahamet bites you very hard on your body!

>flee

You are too dazed to escape!

BEEP!

That would piss me off bigtime.

Holy crap, I don't believe I will ever mess with a carru with -any- pc again with this code in place. The more I think about it the more it makes it very unbalanced because of the fact that npcs don't suffer from command lag.

Down with -more- death to npcs!!!

I would like to think that NPCs are affected by 'daze' too.
What's good for the Goose is good for the Gith.

:doesn't go outside for a while until he thoroughly tests this sparring.

Will follow up tonight with thoughts.

I'm a little scared of this...But I like things tough, so we'll see.

FWIW, NPCs do face command lag.  If they don't, please send me a log with timestamps showing examples where they don't and it will be fixed.

When you are dazed your commands are queued up and and will run when you recover, much like having a delay from doing kick or bash or other post delay command.

It is possible to get continuously dazed and get killed, it's not likely, but it could happen.  If you run into issues with this, please send me a log of it, preferably with timestamps.

Thank god this went in after the "stop" command.

I don't know how it works yet, but it seems bound to happen and regularly at that.  The fact that being worse off increases the chances seals the deal.

It occurs to me that many NPCs were meant to be nearly deadly in the first couple of hits for the simple fact that most competent PCs would run.  This does seems to tip the balance a bit.

I think NPC's have become much easier to fight, not harder, especially now that they do suffer from command lag.  But this affects both PC's and NPC's alike, so I can't see it unbalancing that really.

My concerns/suggestions:

Hit location should heavily influence if you get dazed.  A hit to the hand just shouldn't daze you unless it took nearly all your hitpoints.  Hits to the head, neck and body should be more likely to daze; arms, legs and wrists a bit less, and feet and hands nearly impossible.

Daze should take into account your race and factors associated with that.  It should be really hard to daze half giants, almost impossible in fact.  It should be really hard to daze a mul, and impossible if they are in a rage.  Dwarves should be harder than humans.  It should also take into account certain other factors.  If a something is flying, and you daze it, it should stop flying and thus become more vulnerable to other certain things.  You shouldn't be able to daze undead.

Daze should take into account magick.  Certain magicks should protect against it happening as often.  Certain magicks should have the potential to daze the other.

Quote from: "Halaster"I think NPC's have become much easier to fight, not harder, especially now that they do suffer from command lag.  But this affects both PC's and NPC's alike, so I can't see it unbalancing that really.

Well, I don't really see how the change in combat lag effects things like bahamets and mekillots, which are the primary suspects in a death-by-daze case.

Then there's the fact that in group combat, harder hits are easier to come by against the weaker side.  So that's just asking for it.  Given how there are plenty of situations where rather nasty NPCs travel in groups, that's a bad situation.

Quote from: "Twilight"Hit location should heavily influence if you get dazed.  A hit to the hand just shouldn't daze you unless it took nearly all your hitpoints.  Hits to the head, neck and body should be more likely to daze; arms, legs and wrists a bit less, and feet and hands nearly impossible.

Hit locations are taken into account in that they provide multipliers to damage.  If you get hit extremely hard in the hand, it'll daze you.

Quote from: "Twilight"Daze should take into account your race and factors associated with that.  It should be really hard to daze half giants, almost impossible in fact.  It should be really hard to daze a mul, and impossible if they are in a rage.  Dwarves should be harder than humans.  

There are factors involved in how easy it is to daze someone which aren't directly tied to race, but due to their attributes make it so.  Muls in rage are not affected by daze.

Quote from: "Twilight"It should also take into account certain other factors.  If a something is flying, and you daze it, it should stop flying and thus become more vulnerable to other certain things.  You shouldn't be able to daze undead.

I guess it depends on the flying type.  We will look at this.  Dazing undead is a question we'll also have to think on.

Quote from: "Twilight"Daze should take into account magick.  Certain magicks should protect against it happening as often.  Certain magicks should have the potential to daze the other.

There is a spell that will protect you against being dazed, it's just not documented.  The idea of having spells daze others is on the block for discussion.

mehhh I'm scared of this.  sure hope bash and kick are not included in the things affected by this. as if being thrown to the ground isn't enough of a lag. although if you removed the lag after being hit to the ground and instead make it so your 'dazed' when you get bashed I guess that might work.

EDITED BY HALASTER

I'd like to point out that I really do like this whole thing, but it creates some instances where you just aren't allowed to screw up, and that concerns me.

I won't be going out less because of it, because it would only affect me on those rare occasions where the code has conspired to send me into the realm of Truly Screwed.  The thing is, those situations are a part of every character's life, and with the way things are, it just puts more advantage to the bad situation coming out nowhere.

Particularly, I refer to the inability to look diagonally, and the way combat tends to work, where you either hit your opponent and dodge its attacks or your opponent hits you and dodges your attacks.  Also, having played entirely from a human standpoint, this makes riders even more vulnerable.

In the wilderness, using stealth tactics would be a wonderful option, if that didn't mean leaving behind your ride, which would trot off with the next person that comes along.  Though, an idea just occured to me : riders could possibly walk their mounts along while taking stealth precautions, but something just doesn't seem right about that from a realism standpoint.

In the end though, I guess most of these problems would be solved by travelling in groups, but where's the fun in that?

I'm not sure how I feel about this. It's realistic and in some ways it's very cool, but I don't like if the following scenarios are possible:


>n
The North Road [NESW]

>n
The North Road [NES]

The short and thick figure in a cloak has arrived from the east.
The figure in a cloak has arrived from the east.
The tall figure in a cloak has arrived from the east.

The short and thick figure in a cloak attacks you!
The short and thick figure in a cloak slashes your leg.
The short and thick figure in a cloak slashes you very hard on the body.
You are dazed!
>flee
The figure in a cloak attacks you!
You deftly parry the figure in a cloak's attack.
The figure in a cloak lightly slashes your leg.
flee
>flee
The tall figure in a cloak attacks you!
The tall figure in a cloak chops your wrist.
The tall figure in a cloak solidly chops your head.
You are dazed!
>fleeeeeee
The short and thick figure in a cloak wounds your body with a brutal slash.
The short and thick figure in a cloak solidly slashes your wrist.
You are dazed!

Repeat until dead.

or...

The big old mekillot has arrived from the east.

The big old mekillot attacks you!
The big old mekillot claws your body, doing frightening damage.
You are dazed!

The big old mekillot claws your leg, inflicting a grievous wound.
You are dazed!

The big old mekillot claws your neck, doing frightening damage.
Welcome to Armageddon!

Both are situations which might be realistic but that I can't see bringing anything good to the game.

Hmm...about this...

I love the idea of getting dazed as a possibility. That's wonderful But, to avoid instadeath situations of that sort, I have an idea.

This involves possibly finagleing the flee command. I understand that daze was added at least in part to avoid people simply running from everything (perhaps I should take a page from their collective books...) but there are, as have been pointed out, places where this leads to de facto deathtraps (enter mekillot, stage right), which doesn't seem really in spirit of the game. Yes, life is hard, but NPC deathtraps != roleplaying.

So my suggestion is this: At the beginning of combat (say, only until after the first, or MAYBE second hit) flee will still work, unaffected by daze. I'd justify this by saying that massive loads of adrenaline are coursing through the attackee's body, and adrenaline is a hormone which is primarily useful for fight or flight. Thus, after the first hit the adrenaline is able to help someone ignore such massive damage and drag themselves out of danger, but not after the body has settled on the 'fight' option (thus restricting 'flee' to the very beginning, or subjecting it to daze effects).

I know it might sound a bit sketchy, but there are true-life stories of such things happening, and it seems like a good, plausible excuse for playability.

Quote from: "Hymwen"Both are situations which might be realistic but that I can't see bringing anything good to the game.

Good is a point of view, and to many, including myself, realism is a good thing to bring to the game.  Your example is quite isolated however, as it happens in the desert.  This is just one more thing that will make people think twice about traveling alone.  And that is a good thing, in my humble opinion.

NPCs are affected by lag when moving into the room with you.  You should have more than enough time should a Mekillot 'enter stage right'.

The daze idea was discussed and hashed over by the staff and we felt it was a good change to make.  Yes, it will make things harsher, especially against monstrous creatures.  Yes, it'll make it so that it's better to have friends with you.

As bardbard #4 said, good is a relative term.  And in my opinion, thinking more realistically about the mortality of your character when facing things like a mekillot is a good thing.

Quote from: "dalmeth"I'd like to point out that I really do like this whole thing, but it creates some instances where you just aren't allowed to screw up, and that concerns me.

Honestly, I think this is as it should be. In some places in this game, if you screw up, you die. This is 100% how Armageddon is designed.

Quote from: "Armageddon"Life is hard. There are no free lunches on Zalanthas. There aren't even free drinks of water. It is likely that your character will die, and if you are not clever your character will die very fast. Only (and we mean only) the very fittest of all live long enough to retire in comfort at the end of their careers.

It is a central tenent to Armageddon that life is generally ugly, brutish, and short. If you make a mistake on Zalanthas, be prepared for it to be your last.

QuoteWell, I don't really see how the change in combat lag effects things like bahamets and mekillots, which are the primary suspects in a death-by-daze case.

Some monsters aren't meant to be fought without a lot of preparation and advance planning. In particular, these monsters have always been something considered highly lethal and powerful, so I'm not certain this is any huge change.

Quote from: "Morgenes"And in my opinion, thinking more realistically about the mortality of your character when facing things like a mekillot is a good thing.

Anyone notice that mekillot could be read as 'me kill lot'?

Quote from: "Morgenes"

Quote from: "Morgenes"And in my opinion, thinking more realistically about the mortality of your character when facing things like a mekillot is a good thing.

Anyone notice that mekillot could be read as 'me kill lot'?

That's actually how I always remember how to spell the durned things!

Quote from: "Dalmeth"

Well, I don't really see how the change in combat lag effects things like bahamets and mekillots, which are the primary suspects in a death-by-daze case.

It should make people more cautious when visiting territory where gigantic creatures lair, which makes sense.  Most people quickly learn where it is that you find mekillots, bahamets and silt horrors, and you should be very alert and very cautious when going into those areas.  

There is a common, moderately profitable activity that takes place in an area known for mekillot activity, and since it doesn't require elite skills it is popular way for newbie/loner characters to make money.  Currently when I go out there with a new character I am usually more concerned about running into scrabs than running into mekilliots, because scrabs are common and move quickly.  I'd like to be more worried about the mekillots.  Mekillots should be poop your pants terrifying.





There is a problem in that monsters sometimes follow people out of their traditional territories, and then you can run into them where you quite reasonably don't expect to find them.  I've seen a mekillot or silt horror quite close to Allanak's gates a few times over the years. Being surprised by something that huge sucks. But that is sort of a separate issue of NPC AI and scripts and stuff.  NPCs should give up or go home if they get too far from their home territory.  


It would be great if there were some way to spot gigantic creatures diagonally, at least in completely flat terrain on a clear day.  You really shouldn't often accidentally move into a room next to mekillot or bahamet, you ought to be able to see it coming.  But that is a seperate issue too.


Thumbs up to big scary things.

Quote from: "Morgenes"NPCs are affected by lag when moving into the room with you.  You should have more than enough time should a Mekillot 'enter stage right'.

When I say "screw up," I mean things like accidentally enter "r" instead of "e."  Maybe you were so busy looking out for the big nasty that you didn't see the entrance message right away.

The fact is, most people avoid these things as best they can, and they still get attacked once every so often, mostly because they can't see diagonally.

Movement lag is generally about three seconds, give or take depending on the creature.  Command lag is anywhere from half to a fourth of a second.  Then there's reaction time.  These things add up, and occasionally you get attacked by a creature you were trying to give a wide berth.

EDIT: By "command lag," I mean the time between a command is executed and the time you get a response.  Armageddon tends to be a bit slow, but on second thought, it's more like an eighth of a second.  It just feels like forever, sometimes.

I like the idea that you would get dazed and mauled by large animals.

I haven't run into one of these things since the command lag went in. I do remember the days of yore where I would go from 120 to 30 hp in a matter of seconds when a silt horror slid into my room. But, those days should be done. You should have a few seconds to split, unless you're being attacked by something stealthy and don't see it enter. I'm that concerned with getting "jumped" by a Mek and dying to daze.

I am still a little concerned by the scenario in Hymwen's post. The idea of repeatedly beeing dazed, over and over and over, especially by a human, or an elf rather then a mek I think would be a horrible experience.  But, I say: We should all give this a week or so of play before we come to conclusions and see how often something like this is acutally happening.

Edit: Remember there is a % chance for daze when you get hit hard. So, factor in how often someone (even a skilled someone) gets a viscious shot on you, and couple that with what ever the % chance for a daze is and then keep in mind that if the staff see's people getting dazed every 3rd hit in combat and tons of daze-inflicted deaths, that they are rational people and will lower the % chance for a daze.

Take a deep breath, it will be okay.

I like it...though one question to the staff. Would backstabbing and sap also cause a daze affect if the damage is large enough? Think someone mentioned combat skills causing daze, bs and sap are considered combat skills correct? Would it be realistic to have backstab and sap cause a larger length of daze, them being specifically designed to daze or shock vital areas?

Would seriously beef up assassins/thugs if so.  :shock:

In any case, think it's a great addition.

Of being dazed repeatitively, I personally think it should be possible, as long as the situation warrants it. If you think about it in RL perspective, if you get clubbed in the head hard five times straight, you wouldn't have much of a mind to tell yourself to run away between each huge blow. Have it so you get a quarter of your arm chewed off by a mekillot within five seconds and I don't think fleeing would be an easy task.

If dazing is based on hp and stun damage, backstab and sap naturally will daze very well, as they deal huge amounts of hp or stun damage on the 'first strike.' This does, definitely, benefit backstabbers and sappers.

QuoteHelps to make hgs more dangerous as they should be. That's cool.

Kind of.  Half-giants get hit hard all the time.  I wouldn't be surprised if early-game half-giants die more due to being unable to flee.

currently the code only acts on normal combat.  Special attacks such as kick, bash, backstab, sap, and so on do not.  We're thinking about changing this to work on other attack types such as backstab and sap.

I haven't tested it. I have only one concern that I haven't noticed anyone else mention yet. For PCs who are obligated to live on a schedule, will being dazed make recovering from normal sparring even longer than usual? As it is, if a clan has 5 people who spar on a schedule, and they're all there in the sparring yard, the odds of each person having a chance to run a full sparring "session" are just about perfect. Any more than 5 and it makes things pretty difficult, and if someone has to sit out and recover from being dazed, and everyone else has to RP reacting to that PC being dazed, you could end up with half the players sitting there, not getting any chance to spar at all, and a RL hour is pretty much wasted from a purely coded standpoint. I realize the game isn't all about the stats and skill boosts, and RP is essential. But when you are playing a combat character and your unit depends on everyone attempting to get those coded skills to something better than "noobie" status, it can really put a dent in things.

So, that's my only concern. If there was a way to override the daze recovery time when your character is in a sparring yard, or something like that, I think it would be great.

Havn't tested this new implementation out yet, but I think the effect of daze is only the combat delay. After the delay, the timers on things continue on as they should unless you are dazed again, which they freeze up for the daze duration once more. There aren't any long-lasting effects from daze I think.

Quote from: "Lizzie"I haven't tested it. I have only one concern that I haven't noticed anyone else mention yet. For PCs who are obligated to live on a schedule, will being dazed make recovering from normal sparring even longer than usual? As it is, if a clan has 5 people who spar on a schedule, and they're all there in the sparring yard, the odds of each person having a chance to run a full sparring "session" are just about perfect. Any more than 5 and it makes things pretty difficult, and if someone has to sit out and recover from being dazed, and everyone else has to RP reacting to that PC being dazed, you could end up with half the players sitting there, not getting any chance to spar at all, and a RL hour is pretty much wasted from a purely coded standpoint. I realize the game isn't all about the stats and skill boosts, and RP is essential. But when you are playing a combat character and your unit depends on everyone attempting to get those coded skills to something better than "noobie" status, it can really put a dent in things.

So, that's my only concern. If there was a way to override the daze recovery time when your character is in a sparring yard, or something like that, I think it would be great.

I never understood the one spar match in a room at a time rule thing. The training rooms are virtually very large. More then one person could spar at a time if they needed to.

Though this does make it more dangerous. :)

I really hope that this is Daze V1.0a. Currently, I do not like it. I think that getting dazed from being hit on the hand, even for frightening damage is just plain SILLY. Race should have a Direct affect on how easy someone is to daze and how long it lasts.

But the idea that a blow to an area that is NOT part of the central nervous system can make you forget how to run, UNrealistic.

Well, I think it could very well be a good thing. People say that they are worried about big creatures killing players off more often ... Well, if you get caught by something that can eat you, and you can't get away, it should eat you. I do think this might be something that'll push to get something done about being able to more easiely notice big things ... Hopefully, which would be a good thing. Even if it's just larger creatures sending out echoes to several rooms around them so if you are at a diagnol you have a better chance of knowing they are there.

Anyways, the one problem I have though, is the fact that bigger slower things tend to have a bad habit of getting hit harder. Yes half-giants are huge and tough and dish out damage, but they sometimes seem to get hit much harder then other people too. Don't know why, but I've seen half-giants get hit harder more often by creatures then humans and such when I've played within combat oriented rolls, and I wouldn't want to see half-giants getting dazed very often. I've also seen alot of big creatures get hit very hard when ganged up on, but I don't honestly see them as the sort of creatures that a human or elf would hit them hard enough to be dazed. So hopefully this sort of thing was looked after and covered.

As far as the sparring and such goes ... I have honestly been in many combat roles, and alittle down time from sparring I've never seen as a bad thing. Most the time when you play regularly and have make it through a few rounds of sparring a few IC days every RL day ... Ussually it's more then enough to keep skills on the up and up, to the point that I honestly prefer when I'm in charge to avoid sparring during training times, and do training that is less coded or focuses on less trained skills. I don't forsee this nerfing anyones combat advancement, even if it cuts down on training time.

Quote from: "Lizzie"For PCs who are obligated to live on a schedule, will being dazed make recovering from normal sparring even longer than usual?

No, not at all.  Being dazed in combat lasts a very, very short time.  You don't get your next swing.  And then that's it, the effects have passed.

Not only do I support this but I think the addition of the dazing mechanic may allow for some interesting spells, skills or abilities in the future. Kudos.

ps dazeproof my pcs plz

I wouldn't call the daze very short, but it's not so long.

I would like to suggest that scale where you get dazed from stun damage be adjusted.   As it is, realitvely minor hits from bludgeoning weapons and especially fists can cause the dazed state.

Though I suppose the really strange thing about this new feature is what does it do besides make a bad situation for someone worse?

Make a good situation, better (provided you're on the right side)?

I'm not certain that things need to nessecarially always "make something better". Can you explain what you mean, or why you think it should?

If you just miss your next swing then my main concern is moot. Not everyone has a few hours every day to play, so if half the time they -can- play is spent sticking to schedule, following their clan's rules, in the sparring yard, and -not- sparring, eventually you start wondering when you're going to do something other than stand there emoting how exciting it is to watch everyone else.

That was my primary concern, it's been addressed, so thank you. Please carry on with the rest of the discussion :)

L. Stanson

I haven't had much experience with the dazed code. But until it goes into place for mages as well, I'd say that they just got handed a severe hurt.

Yeah, I thought about mages taking it in the nuts with this new code addition.  After pondering, I believe its a damn good thing.


Seeker

Quote from: "Halaster"
...Being dazed in combat lasts a very, very short time.  You don't get your next swing.  And then that's it, the effects have passed.

In response to some of the code change naysayers

Haven't tested it yet but if it works as described, I see nothing wrong with it. Keep in mind, imagine you're fightimg some big fuckoff-size animal and it bites your hand, you will sure as hell miss your last swing. You might even be missing your hand. You're fighting a dude and he drops a bigass hammer on your toe, you'd probably have trouble connecting with a swing you were about to make at that time.

For sparring: Someone gets a solid hit to your body with a spear, wouldn't you emote staggering back a couple steps? I usually do. Now it's coded, too.

Even for those of you worried about getting dazed repeatedly, I'm for that too. If I'm putting a spear through your shoulder repeatedly, you probably wouldn't be able to hit me with a single blow.


I can't wait to see it in action.

I'm not at all worried about the missing your next attack part. It's the delay that bothers me. I haven't tested it so I can't speak in facts, but if it works like it looks to me, any decent fighter will be able to walk up to pretty much anyone who isn't armed, attack them, and have a good chance of keeping them in a "delay lock" until they die.

If that is how it works, I don't like it at all. I would have no problem if it delayed your combat skills and other things such as spells, but not being able to flee or draw your weapons doesn't seem right to me.

I love the daze code.  I have not tested it yet, but the idea that a hard blow can put you some delay is realistic, and I don't think it hurts playability at all.

I LOVE IT!  Thanks!  I hope it gets updated for special attacks/spells in time.

Quote from: "Hymwen"I'm not at all worried about the missing your next attack part. It's the delay that bothers me. I haven't tested it so I can't speak in facts, but if it works like it looks to me, any decent fighter will be able to walk up to pretty much anyone who isn't armed, attack them, and have a good chance of keeping them in a "delay lock" until they die.

Generally, attacks aren't so quick as to make a permanent dazed state, but the character I'm playing isn't exactly the most agile.

Either way, my primary concern is just how easy it is to daze some of the NPCs at lower health levels.  That's just awful, but I suppose it would be good for some parties of PCs taking down large creatures.

Now that I've had a chance to see it work, I still like it. I highly doubt that daze-locking is going to be a big problem. Make no mistake, the new code does polarize the game quite a bit- making strong fighters stronger and weak fighters weaker, but why the hell not? Weaklings will have more trouble fleeing, but if an experienced killing machine comes at you when you're not armed and gets a very strong attack off, you would have trouble getting away. his can encourage hiring guards, keeping If you're a weak fighter, there are still things you can do to protect yourself like- hire guards, find a hiding place, keep to lawful areas.

I really like the idea of polarizing the game like this, it's not really going to change the way people play their characters in the long run. however, it needs to be applied to special attacks and magick ASAP to complete the transition.

It's a new way to kill us. I love it.  :twisted:

More seriously, from what I have seen and read it's only a chance of stun, not a surety of stun, even on a real good blow. Also I've seen some fairly solid hits in sparring without a single stun, because of course we all spar with the right weapons.... right?

I like the change, and look forwards to it being introduced for spells and other attacks. And tweaked to affect those silly southerners more often! Kudos to the coder(s).

The fear of getting perma-dazed by a large creature like a mekillot possibly isn't as large a worry as some people are thinking - larger creatures tend to be a little slower, and if you'd have got two swings in before they'd get their next, you've got your window to escape even if dazed, surely?

However, I still want to echo what was said earlier about seeing diagonally - when you're on an open plain, you're not going to voluntarily go looking for a mekillot, and as they're quite large, you should perhaps be able to see them before blundering into close proximity to them. If big creatures are to become even deadlier, I'd like the defences against becoming their snack to have more to do with a player/character navigating carefully and less to do with the player's reflexes/typing accuracy/lag of the player's connection.

Quote from: "Hymwen"but if it works like it looks to me, any decent fighter will be able to walk up to pretty much anyone who isn't armed, attack them, and have a good chance of keeping them in a "delay lock" until they die.

Nah, you're overestimating it a little.  It has to be a really hard hit to get dazed.

Quote from: "Quirk"
However, I still want to echo what was said earlier about seeing diagonally - when you're on an open plain, you're not going to voluntarily go looking for a mekillot, and as they're quite large, you should perhaps be able to see them before blundering into close proximity to them. If big creatures are to become even deadlier, I'd like the defences against becoming their snack to have more to do with a player/character navigating carefully and less to do with the player's reflexes/typing accuracy/lag of the player's connection.

Wow, yeh. I think being able to see diagonally is actually quite important. It doesn't make sense that you can see in front of you, and to the right of you...but not whats between the two.

Could some sort of 'look nw' command be coded so that it shows the room that is 'north and then west'? As I know diagonals aren't used in Arm...

[derail]While off topic, just thought I'd toss in my thought. How should you be able to look in a direction and not be able to travel in that direction? Also, it shouldn't make any difference at all whether you see a bahamet to the nw or it being nw of your location, as the bahamet would be able to see you at the same time if you were able to see it. I don't think it would be fair to just be able to see the huge thing and run away, without allowing the huge thing to see you and come after you. It would be exactly the same if you went west and saw the bahamet to the north, with being able to look(travel) diagonally and seeing a bahamet diagonally. And if you were able to travel diagonally, that still wouldn't solve being able to see huge objects nnw or your location, as if you travel diagonally, you'll still be jumped by the huge thing from the north in the new room anyways.

...I think I'm just repeating myself now... :oops:

So, basically, the current system of the four primary cardinal directions works well as it is.[/derail]

Tested the daze code out abit...looks like it affects combat quite abit.

Please move the non-cardinal direction looking/movement to another thread if you wish to discuss it and stop derailing this thread.

Text of post moved to new topic.

I love it. I'd love to see kick, bash (less so) and esppecially charge have a better chance of dazing someone since particular kick is a bit weak (due to delay) and dangerous to use and charge is sometimes suicide even if your good with it. The delay gives the other person enough time to stand (though i think a delay has been added now not sure) hit you hard on the head a couple times or flee before your delay runs out.

Think all i'd like to see now is the chances of being hit or being hit hard rises and (or) your chances of hitting or hitting decrease as you get tired and stamina drain during combat. Of course some bonuses for Delves in that respect. Also an increase in overall defence across the classes so that combat has a bit more strategic element other then omgwtfpawnage we are used to seeing.

I had to reread the initial post to confirm my initial understanding.  I think perhaps my understanding of chance of being dazed must differ from staff's.  I guess I expected going beyond normal hits into the realm of actual hard hits (those with the bad sounding names like brutally and unspeakable) would still yield only a chance of being dazed, rather than a near certainty.

I'd like to know what the other players think chance means in % terms?  I'm sure to some of us, we might expect this to mean 35% tops, while others are expecting 95%.

I think I'd like it if it was truly a chance, like not more than 50%, ever, under any circumstances.

I dazed the crap out of a skeet last night and I can say from my own experimentation that the chance of being dazed when you're in good condition is relatively low. You have to take a very significant hit to be dazed at that point. If the target is wounded, however, the chance of being dazed seems to go up exponentially. If you're really beating the shit out of someone, your last few hits before they die will probably each daze them as their defense completely collapses.

Personally I love it. It even combats that crappy scenario where you attack a person, they flee, and you sit for 10 seconds waiting for command lag to end so you can chase their ass. At least now, a buff person/experienced fighter has at least a chance of keeping their ass right there until they die, or at least until the kill command lag wears off if you get a really nice opening shot.

I have looked over this and think it is a little violent. Lets look at some basic things.

1. Npcs pretty much don't flee and until we get an a.i. upgrade (being worked on I know) Reeling blows are basically a pk tool.

2. Warriors have bash for that exact reason, it is what gives them a use later in the game since almost any other class can outplay them later.

3. Fight a Rantarri or Braxat... and no not you d elf maxxed agi warriors.

I like the concept but I would like to see the 'reeling' a little less often, make people still want that warrior in their group to prevent people from getting away. I remember when the thug sub class first came out my one hour ranger could insta ko scrab without fail each and everytime. They tweaked it in time, and I hope they do it again to the 'dazed' hits.

Having tested this out with different beasties, it's definately much more dangerous. The "daze lock" effect is actually quite easy to achieve, as anything that can hit hard enough to daze will only have a better chance to do so with each consecutive blow. Creatures that can bash and dish out heavy damage will certainly be properly feared now.

While this will encourage groups (guarding, rescuing, etc.), solo hunters beware. It's a brave new world.

I'm not exactly sure what you can or can't do while dazed, but after some (very limited) exposure to this, it does make me wonder about the possibility of being "daze-locked".

I don't mind so much if it makes some creatures more dangerous, but I'm wondering how it might affect sparring.

There's a lot of talk about maxed agi increasing dodging in combat, but it doesn't mention that in the help file, so I don't know if that is the case.  However, what the maxed agi does allow is an easy daze lock.  I've seen elves on the attack and they get somewhere awfully close to one attack a second.  That's pretty insane with this new feature.

On the other hand, they are probably easier to daze themselves.

Because you generally only get dazed when you take a lot of hp or stun damage - like, a lot, a significant fraction of your current hp or stun totals, seems like - if you're sparring someone of your relatively skill level you won't get 'stunlocked.' If you're sparring someone who can kill you in three chops, well, you might be so overwhelmed that you can't hit back, but they can just disengage, now.

However - and this is an important point - your probability of being dazed goes way up when you're wounded or partially dizzied. Players who are used to sparring themselves down to 10hp each (ie, twinks) will find that the new daze code makes that very inconvenient and exceedingly dangerous, I think.

Quote from: "Dalmeth"There's a lot of talk about maxed agi increasing dodging in combat, but it doesn't mention that in the help file, so I don't know if that is the case.  However, what the maxed agi does allow is an easy daze lock.  I've seen elves on the attack and they get somewhere awfully close to one attack a second.  That's pretty insane with this new feature.

On the other hand, they are probably easier to daze themselves.

Elves tend to not hit very hard, so I think it evens out.

I might have posted this already and just forgot about it but in any case I'm posting my opinion:

It seems to me that the dazed code is doing little if any to extend the game, after less then a week I've heard of at least one person dieing from daze lock every day since it's been put into practice. Basicly the idea behind this is that if you deal hard hit to some one they'll be reeling. So basicly after getting the upper hand after doing a massive amount of damage this will now give that person even more of a chance to to take the lead. Shouldn't doing a hard hit like that be it's own reward? I just don't see why anyone or thing needs any more reward from a hard hit other then the massive amount of damage they do.

On top of that I see a few people loving this code because it makes HG more dangerous, but i have to ask "where half-giants not dangerous enough?" I mean after a bit of time they can kill you with one bash and yet you now want to make them even harder to kill? The same goes for other hard hitting creatures such as bahamets and the like. All it seems to do is make creatures, NPCs, and PCs that are already unbelievably deadly (HG, bahamets, anakore) even more deadly to the point of being rediculous

I'm really torn up about daze.

On one hand, I dazed someone and I was like "DAMN! SW33T I D4Z3D J000 B10thc!"

I'm also not playing an HG.

However, I have seen first hand during a sparring match how dangerous this is. I was hit *hard* and dazed and had it not been a sparring match I would have been very, very dead.

Sooooo....I don't know. I don't love it, but I don't hate it.

The flee should happen before my attacks.  I want to flee, I don't want to attack it, it is already kicking my ass:

An amazingly badass creature has arrived from the north.

Lots and lots of Hps>  You think:
    "Shit."

Lots and lots of Hps >  s

An amazingly badass creature pinches your body, inflicting a grievous wound.
You reel from the blow.

Still more hps than most people >  flee

An amazingly badass creature brutally pinches you on your arm.
You reel from the blow.
An amazingly badass creature's kick at you is absorbed by your piece of armor.

Damn, not going to regen anymore hps >  flee

An amazingly badass creature swiftly dodges your blow of doom.
An amazingly badass creature swiftly dodges your blow of awesomeness.

Damn, not going to regen anymore hps>  
Damn, not going to regen anymore hps >  flee
flee

An amazingly badass creature pinches your body, inflicting a grievous wound.
You reel from the blow.
An amazingly badass creature attempts to knock a cool weapon from your hands, but you deftly avoid it.

Eek! hps >  
Eek! hps >  You're fighting for your life!

Eek! hps >  You attempt to flee.


Actual events.  Names changed to protect the guilty.

Commands (like kill, kick, or bash) carry lag. Taking swings in combat is automatic and does not carry lag. Don't worry, flailing around at an amazing badass creature of doom isn't going to make you flee any later!

If you were to change one thing about daze, what would you change?  We're not asking if you think it should be removed.  It won't be.  However, what about it is so unfair?  Is the lag before you can get a command in too long?  Is missing your next attack too harsh a punishment?

My current thoughts involve cutting back the length of the command lag a good bit, just so it's there but it's not overwhelming.

Quote from: "Morgenes"If you were to change one thing about daze, what would you change?  We're not asking if you think it should be removed.  It won't be.  However, what about it is so unfair?  Is the lag before you can get a command in too long?  Is missing your next attack too harsh a punishment?

My current thoughts involve cutting back the length of the command lag a good bit, just so it's there but it's not overwhelming.

Drawing a weapon while dazed would be nice, or maybe see it happen a little less often for when we get attacked by big baddies northwest of us we would never have approached.

Quote from: "Cyrian20"Drawing a weapon while dazed would be nice,

Why should your character be able to draw a weapon but nothing else for those few seconds while you were sent reeling?  Explain that to me without using the term 'playability'.

Quote from: "Cyrian20"or maybe see it happen a little less often for when we get attacked by big baddies northwest of us we would never have approached.

Send me a log, with date & timestamps, showing you getting whomped on by a creature that was more than one room away from you that you typed 'flee' as soon as you saw them and they still hurt you, and I'll look at it.

Quote from: "Morgenes"

Quote from: "Cyrian20"Drawing a weapon while dazed would be nice,

Why should your character be able to draw a weapon but nothing else for those few seconds while you were sent reeling?  Explain that to me without using the term 'playability'.

Quote from: "Cyrian20"or maybe see it happen a little less often for when we get attacked by big baddies northwest of us we would never have approached.

Send me a log, with date & timestamps, showing you getting whomped on by a creature that was more than one room away from you that you typed 'flee' as soon as you saw them and they still hurt you, and I'll look at it.

The issue is that if you're unarmed you're getting hit hard, and if you can't pull out a weapon you're going to be dazed for a while. I think the free hard hit is reward enough. Especially if someone just.


alias own kill
draw sword
own shitcloak


If you are in public, thus unarmed yourself, they can get that evil hit off and I assume a higher dmg hit increases the daze % and thus if you can't draw a weapon you could get daze locked since in my experiences I often lose tons of hp to people I could normally beat when I am unarmed.

As for the mek thing, it is an example of us dial-up victim problems, I know it is something that doesn't –need- to be addressed but it is nice. I love that npcs lag but they can still catch you and it would be nice if you could flee. Maybe give a stackable flag with a timer that lowers the reeling chance, I think that would allow all the fun evilness people want without sending everyone into 'daze lock'

[to the players that will shoot this down]

Again these are just ideas and I would love for the players to bounce their thoughts off of them to improve. Please an "I DON'T LIKE THIS" post is unhelpful; if you understand my minor issues with it and have better ideas please please post. I am sort of hoping we can make use of a -discussion- board.

[/to the players that will shoot this down]

So I was torn up.

The I read:

Quote from: "jstorrie"
The wastes are dangerous. Fighting a mekillot is like fighting a goddamned tyrannosaurus, man! Didn't you find it a bit odd that any sufficiently well-trained dwarf could pwn a t-rex with a couple bone clubs?

In another thread. This sums it up for me.

Dazed = Yes.

However....Maybe...(Morg, you out there?) We take into account the weight of the attacker vs the defender and relatives str, rather then just the damage done?

That would let large creatures daze you, but not let well trained fighters who are still small and weak do so?

Not sure. I say this because I saw a tiny elven boy daze a carru recently. But I think I've come around on this and all in all I like it.

I also like dazing people. It's cool.

The probability of getting dazed by a hit when you are at full hp/stun is pretty low. You have to literally get fucking mangled for the chance of being dazed to be high. So yeah, a really strong half-giant could whomp you down 80%, daze you too much to let you draw a weapon, and then finish you off while you were reeling. The chance of Jim Zero-Day Warrior doing with his ninja half-elf is significantly lower - especially if the city watch wanders in and starts dazing him.

Quote from: "Cyrian20"The issue is that if you're unarmed you're getting hit hard, and if you can't pull out a weapon you're going to be dazed for a while. I think the free hard hit is reward enough. Especially if someone just.

Code Select Expand


alias own kill
draw sword
own shitcloak


I don't see how this alias helps at all.  I can see putting a minor command delay on draw so that you have to wait to kill someone after drawing, but if you're already in a fight you'd be ok.  At least then you'd have a second or two warning that shit is ready to throw down.

Quote from: "Cyrian20"As for the mek thing, it is an example of us dial-up victim problems, I know it is something that doesn't –need- to be addressed but it is nice. I love that npcs lag but they can still catch you and it would be nice if you could flee. Maybe give a stackable flag with a timer that lowers the reeling chance, I think that would allow all the fun evilness people want without sending everyone into 'daze lock'

If anything I'd add an increased chance of daze if you're already dazed because, well it makes sense.  However, the way daze is currently implemented, it's already there.  If you just took a hard enough hit to daze you, your hit points/stun points are lower and so the threshold for getting dazed again is lower.

I'm sorry, but you're not going to win me over with arguments that would make it possible for a newbie to survive against a mekillot without friends to rescue him or luck at getting the flee off.

Quote from: "jstorrie"The probability of getting dazed by a hit when you are at full hp/stun is pretty low. You have to literally get fucking mangled for the chance of being dazed to be high.

Very good point, and a truth that should be emphasized.

I don't like what I've seen of it, to begin with. As someone else stated, we already have bash for that. But to answer Morgenes' question...

I think that only extra ordinarily hard hits should reel someone. Like, a hit that probably should have killed you to begin with. I don't like seeing a solid slash send someone reeling. I think the way it is set up at current makes it too easy to get dazed, and ends with people just having to sit with their hands in their pockets while their PC reels over and over again.

Drawing a weapon while dazed would be a great start. First of all, playability. There, I said it, because it IS a factor in the combat code, but more so... Rooms are not people standing shoulder to shoulder and face to face. Someone can (and NPCs do) walk into a room and begin attacking someone without approaching them, looking at them, saying anything, or anything of that nature. They warp up to them and slash them. Realistically, if someone marched into the tavern with blades drawn, b-lining for my PC, my PC would have his weapons drawn before he was insta-reeled and thereafter flattened due to being unarmed.

There should be a recovery period, also. If you are reeled, you should not get re-reeled until you've recovered and maybe had a round to do something. Yes, because of playability. I guess that's really the only reason, but I don't think that it is an invalid one.

Size should be an issue. Half-giants should make people reel. Mekillots should make people reel. A human slashing a human should have a very small chance of dazing someone, in my opinion, regardless of how hard they hit. It would set half-giants and such apart from normal creatures as far as the combat code is concerned, which is something most everyone wants. And it would stop insta-gibbings from happening as frequently.

All in all, I think it is a good idea, but it needs some tweaking. I've only seen it in action a few times, but it frustrated the hell out of me, and I wasn't even involved in the fight. I don't think that is how things are meant to be, even if it is just for the sake of playability.

Quote from: "Morgenes"

I'm sorry, but you're not going to win me over with arguments that would make it possible for a newbie to survive against a mekillot without friends to rescue him or luck at getting the flee off.

I promise I am not trying to 'win' you over, I am just adding my two cents as to ways it could make the game less enjoyable to some (I think as we have seen from the popularity of this post)

As for my example I made a mistake of adding the alias thing in there for fun, I should have assumed people would focus on that. So that said, I was basically pointing out if you attack a person who is unarmed you basically have a huge advantage as it is, if they can be dazed and not able to draw their weapon and each hit increased daze % then basically attacking an unarmed person can guarantee a kill.

Again I have no plans to even enter combat with my pc so all of this is moot to me; I just offer my observations so they can be discussed on. By all means make valid points and (if you look at previous topics I have been involved in) I will change my opinion when new facts are presented. I have never claimed my way right, I just point out why I think my way is right and if those points are not true I –hope- someone corrects me.


So since the point of my post was missed, I should have explained it better I am sure, are you basically screwed if you're attacked unarmed and reel from the first blow (and thus following blows) of that pretty two handed sword?. That is the reason I would like to be able to still draw a weapon while reeling.

Quote from: "bloodfromstone"I think that only extra ordinarily hard hits should reel someone. Like, a hit that probably should have killed you to begin with. I don't like seeing a solid slash send someone reeling. I think the way it is set up at current makes it too easy to get dazed, and ends with people just having to sit with their hands in their pockets while their PC reels over and over again.

What do you consider an extra ordinarily hard hit?  How many or what percentage of your health or stun?  20%? 50%? 80%?
If this only happened when you lost half your health or 80% of your health, it would be pointless cause more than likely the next hit would kill you if someone could do that much damage.

Quote from: "bloodfromstone"Drawing a weapon while dazed would be a great start. First of all, playability. There, I said it, because it IS a factor in the combat code, but more so... Rooms are not people standing shoulder to shoulder and face to face. Someone can (and NPCs do) walk into a room and begin attacking someone without approaching them, looking at them, saying anything, or anything of that nature. They warp up to them and slash them. Realistically, if someone marched into the tavern with blades drawn, b-lining for my PC, my PC would have his weapons drawn before he was insta-reeled and thereafter flattened due to being unarmed.

Everyone has a command delay for walking into a room, this should be enough time to either flee or ass -v to see if they're armed, or just draw your weapons if your character would be that twitchy.

Quote from: "bloodfromstone"
There should be a recovery period, also. If you are reeled, you should not get re-reeled until you've recovered and maybe had a round to do something. Yes, because of playability. I guess that's really the only reason, but I don't think that it is an invalid one.

This is already true, if you're still in a dazed state, the penalties do not stack.  You'll get the echo, but you won't end up in a longer wait.  However if you've lost your attack already, another daze will make you loose your next one.

Quote from: "bloodfromstone"Size should be an issue. Half-giants should make people reel. Mekillots should make people reel. A human slashing a human should have a very small chance of dazing someone, in my opinion, regardless of how hard they hit. It would set half-giants and such apart from normal creatures as far as the combat code is concerned, which is something most everyone wants. And it would stop insta-gibbings from happening as frequently.

I think this is partially true.  Size is a factor, larger things with higher strengths are going to daze you more easily.  I disagree that it should be a 'very small chance' of a humanoid dazing you just because they're a humanoid.  I guarantee you if I hit you upside the head with a club, you will be dazed.  If you have empirical evidence to the contrary, feel free to mail me a log showing hps/stun points.

Quote from: "bloodfromstone"All in all, I think it is a good idea, but it needs some tweaking. I've only seen it in action a few times, but it frustrated the hell out of me, and I wasn't even involved in the fight. I don't think that is how things are meant to be, even if it is just for the sake of playability.

How can you speak with such authority if you've only seen it a few times and it wasn't even you that was affected by it?  Unless I'm reading your paragraph wrong.  Nor do I see how being dazed could somehow 'frustrate the hell out of you' if you weren't even the one involved in the fight.  Please provide real examples with real explanations as to what is frustrating about it.

From what I'm reading the main concern is over the length of the daze period.  So barring any further insights from you guys, I'm gonna reduce the command wait from daze a bit.  It's possible I'll overcompensate and need to tweak it again, but we'll see.

The chance of getting dazed is not going to change.

Quote from: "Morgenes"

Quote from: "jstorrie"The probability of getting dazed by a hit when you are at full hp/stun is pretty low. You have to literally get fucking mangled for the chance of being dazed to be high.

Very good point, and a truth that should be emphasized.

the only thing is that it doesn't have to be a very high probability (less then 50%) and it will still happen -Alot-

as for ideas to fix it:
drawing would help and it realistic depending on how you view being dazed, I basicly see it as being hit hard enough that your too off balance to get any decent swing in. You may not have the leverage to get any force behind a blow but you don't need to be have leverage to whip out a dagger.

Also, flee would be good maybe not so much that you can still flee while dazed but you shouldn't be able to be dazed any more after your attempting to run, if you fail then go ahead and get dazed again and you can type flee to try to get out after your donr being dazed the second time.

Quote from: "Cyrian20"Again I have no plans to even enter combat with my pc so all of this is moot to me; I just offer my observations so they can be discussed on.

I really find it hard to see how you can speak constructively on something unless you have experienced it first hand.  

Quote from: "Cyrian20"So since the point of my post was missed, I should have explained it better I am sure, are you basically screwed if you're attacked unarmed and reel from the first blow (and thus following blows) of that pretty two handed sword?. That is the reason I would like to be able to still draw a weapon while reeling.

We have done tests with a strong humanoid running around virtual Allanak with a weapon attacking unarmed characters, and they were all able to flee or draw there weapons without much issue.  Unless you have a log to back up this claim 'I am sure, are you basically screwed if you're attacked unarmed and reel from the first blow (and thus following blows) of that pretty two handed sword?.'  Or is it really a question?  If it's a question, the answer is no, you won't be totally screwed.  And all this is before we lower the command lag and before I add a command lag to draw.

If I could change one thing about Daze, I would make it possible for dazed characters to flee.  They would have a significant penalty, but would still be able to make a run for it.

If the above is out of the question, I'd like to see a possibility for dazed people to go into an All Defense mode, ie going into fetal position and guarding their heads.  They wouldn't be able to attack, but also wouldn't die so quickly after being dazed once.

Quote from: "Larrath"If I could change one thing about Daze, I would make it possible for dazed characters to flee.  They would have a significant penalty, but would still be able to make a run for it.

I'll respond to this and Daedroug's post above with the same answer.  Being dazed is like what you see in the movies when the character just took a huge hit and is just basically sitting there unable to react.  You can't flee, you can't draw a weapon, you can't swing.  Feel lucky that we don't modify your defense any while you're dazed.

Quote from: "Larrath"If the above is out of the question, I'd like to see a possibility for dazed people to go into an All Defense mode, ie going into fetal position and guarding their heads.  They wouldn't be able to attack, but also wouldn't die so quickly after being dazed once.

Fetal position guarding your head is a good way to die, not live.  Again, my answer to the previous explains my intentions behind the daze code.  You are unable to react that last hit hurt so bad.  That's what this code represents.

Quote from: "Morgenes"

Quote from: "Cyrian20"Again I have no plans to even enter combat with my pc so all of this is moot to me; I just offer my observations so they can be discussed on.

I really find it hard to see how you can speak constructively on something unless you have experienced it first hand.  

I think you missed some of it, let me quote the entire thing for you.

Quote from: "Cyrian20"Again I have no plans to even enter combat with my pc so all of this is moot to me; I just offer my observations so they can be discussed on. By all means make valid points and (if you look at previous topics I have been involved in) I will change my opinion when new facts are presented. I have never claimed my way right, I just point out why I think my way is right and if those points are not true I –hope- someone corrects me.

I again did not say I was right or wrong, but was pointing out my observations so they could be -discussed- and hopefully I would be calmly corrected if I was wrong. Here you almost did that perfectly by saying what you said. I now know that unarmed people aren't getting owned and you're lowering the lag.

:wink:  Discussion works wonders  :wink:

:took this part out as people will focus on it instead of the post:

Quote from: "daedroug"the only thing is that it doesn't have to be a very high probability (less then 50%) and it will still happen -Alot-

Send me all the logs you have of the intial swing of combat showing how many hitpoints and stunpoints you lost in that first swing.  If you loose more than 20% of your max hitpoints or stun in one swing (not both for dual wielding) in 50% of those logs I'd be very surprised.  I'd wager that you didn't loose 20% of hp or stun in more than 5% of those logs.

Quote from: "Morgenes"

Quote from: "daedroug"the only thing is that it doesn't have to be a very high probability (less then 50%) and it will still happen -Alot-

Send me all the logs you have of the intial swing of combat showing how many hitpoints and stunpoints you lost in that first swing.  If you loose more than 20% of your max hitpoints or stun in one swing (not both for dual wielding) in 50% of those logs I'd be very surprised.  I'd wager that you didn't loose 20% of hp or stun in more than 5% of those logs.

thats the point though even with 5% chance and 60 players running around every day getting into scraps tons of time each. Even if 5 out of 100 combats end because they reeled in the first hit and there fore ended in a quick deah it would be happening to at least a couple people a day which to loose a couple PCs a day is not somthing i would like to see on top of the already gay to gay PC death

[edited to add] Also drawing, even if your sitting there on the ground you still aughta whip out a weapon pretty quick especially a dagger. I know i could just sitting down and the only the only reson that you would be too stunned to get one out is if you take a blow to the head, otherwise you've just been knocked to the floor.

QuoteWhat do you consider an extra ordinarily hard hit? How many or what percentage of your health or stun? 20%? 50%? 80%?
If this only happened when you lost half your health or 80% of your health, it would be pointless cause more than likely the next hit would kill you if someone could do that much damage.

I consider an extraordinarily hard hit one that takes a high level of weapon skill even versus an unarmed opponent. I would say it should definitely be closer to 50%, because it is not pointless. Someone can flee or magick themselves away in an instant, if they're quick at typing.

QuoteEveryone has a command delay for walking into a room, this should be enough time to either flee or ass -v to see if they're armed, or just draw your weapons if your character would be that twitchy.

A lot of people carry weapons when they, realistically and ICly, should not, because hunters forget to sheath. Realistically, someone busting into a tavern with a scimitar in either hand would be a rare occurance, met with an outburst of reactions. Instead, we emote glancing down at the weapons in their hands as a reminder to the player, not the character, that they're armed. Maybe if we all started reacting properly, people would take more care as to whether or not they were armed, but, at current, that's not the way things are.

QuoteThis is already true, if you're still in a dazed state, the penalties do not stack. You'll get the echo, but you won't end up in a longer wait. However if you've lost your attack already, another daze will make you loose your next one.

That's good to know.

QuoteI think this is partially true. Size is a factor, larger things with higher strengths are going to daze you more easily. I disagree that it should be a 'very small chance' of a humanoid dazing you just because they're a humanoid. I guarantee you if I hit you upside the head with a club, you will be dazed. If you have empirical evidence to the contrary, feel free to mail me a log showing hps/stun points.

I also guarantee you that if someone slashes you hard on the neck with a two-handed sword, you will die, but that is not the way things are IG. As much as I know it's not the response you're looking for, I firmly believe that playability takes priority. It may just be difference of opinions at that point, but that is why I, personally, feel that the chance should be very small.

QuoteHow can you speak with such authority if you've only seen it a few times and it wasn't even you that was affected by it? Unless I'm reading your paragraph wrong. Nor do I see how being dazed could somehow 'frustrate the hell out of you' if you weren't even the one involved in the fight. Please provide real examples with real explanations as to what is frustrating about it.

It is frustrating for me to watch another player die with little to no chance for input on their part. Even if I don't know the player OOCly or the PC ICly, it is still frustrating for me to see someone get splattered.
As a real example, a generic human guard jumps a new PC. A fight starts, and within a round or two, the PC is dazed. A round later, the PC is dazed again. A round later, the PC is dead.
For me, this is frustrating because, regardless of whether or not I was in the fight, I still sat and watched someone die helplessly. Sure, they probably had a few seconds to realize that they were wanted and run, or flee when the soldier attacked them, but I think all save the most hardened mudding veterans freeze up for a second when they find themselves in an unexpected fight. Granted, this is our own problem, but I still think that it is oversimplifying the situation to say "Well, they should have just checked score to see that they were wanted, assessed the soldier to see that he was armed, and fled."


Again, I understand that my experience with this code is limited, and I also understand that the decision is the staff's to make, but this is my impression of it thus far. Mostly, I feel like my post was regarded as being ill thought out and nonsensical, so I want Morgenes to know that I wasn't just vomiting up words when I posted it. I have a lot of respect for the changes that have been made recently, and I try to keep that respect when posting about my own issues with the code. So... Maybe this post was pointless as far as debate, but it's just my two cents. Take it as you will. :)

In my last log, you will note I didn't type kill.  It was something that had a faster movement rate than my character, thus the kill command was on its side.

I had guess I assumed that the dazed length would be equivalent to how long it would take to get your next hit in.  Which is why I was surprised that I got the attack in, but wasn't able to flee.  If I am attacking, it does not make any sense that I am dazed.  I am done with just standing there, as has been explained as what the daze represents.

If I had one thing I would like to see changed, I would like to see a max chance of 50% of being dazed, no matter what.  Having played a number of magickers, 20% of your hps is not all that much when you are sitting there without any weapons in your hands.  And, no, I never log without a specific purpose, so none of those to give you.  But this did just wimp lots of magickers vs. lots of NPCs out there.  And completely whack out one aspect of magicking that is already quite dangerous, because of this.  Not especially worried about vs. other players.

Now, I realize am not going to get what I wanted, as Morgenes already said the % isn't going to change.  But it goes down to this:  Getting attacked even by completely badass things should not mean insta-death for a non-combat character, for playability sake.  High probability if they don't flee instantly?  Sure.  High probability if they flee instantly?  No.  Sure, its realistic they'd die, but it completely sucks from a playability perspective.

Anyways, I hope it gets tweaked.  I've only been dazed maybe 10 times, but I have seen literally hundreds of dazes (although not in ideal test conditions) so far and its realistic, but unbalancing combat playability.

First, I'm going to state that I hate daze currently. REALLY hate it. Poorly implimented at best.

This does not mean that I always will, that depends on how things end up.

Alright changes.

First, A very hard to the hand and your dazed? Come on, I saw a guy lose half his hand in a punch press and when the die came up he reached in, grabbed his four fingers and part of his hand, pressed his stub tight against his side and booked ass to the front.

I've worked most my life in roofing and other construction, I've seen many brutal accidents and injuries. And NEVER EVER have I seen or heard of an injury NOT involving the central nervous system  or heart/lungs that caused a person to forget how to perform a simple action.

Second. It does not take into account race, Raged muls don't get daze, big deal. What about muls not raged, they still do and just as easy as anybody else, yet some races are supposed to be tougher.

Third, It does not take into account class or experiance. A 10 IC year warrior with 40days played SHOULD be able to shrug off more damage then a 10day 1ic year warrior. This is something you learn to do IRL if you fight/box, play alot of football etc etc.


And it changes most fights into mostly luck, First person to daze wins, so, between two equal warriors its the luck of whoever0 lands that blow first, and I've already seen it several times in sparring. If it would have been other then sparring the other pc would be dead.

Quote from: "X-D"And it changes most fights into mostly luck, First person to daze wins, so, between two equal warriors its the luck of whoever0 lands that blow first, and I've already seen it several times in sparring. If it would have been other then sparring the other pc would be dead.

There's a flaw in that I believe. I may be wrong, but being dazed just means your commands are put on hold, you're character will still be defending and attacking(?) as usual. So saying a warrior winning by getting a daze hit on another warrior of equal skill won't happen unless the warrior was disarmed first, dazed, then failed the rest of his defense skills so he couldn't flee. What you noticed during a sparring match was likely a match between partners of unequal skill.

Quote from: "Twilight"But it goes down to this:  Getting attacked even by completely badass things should not mean insta-death for a non-combat character, for playability sake.  

For playability's sake, you should know how to avoid insta-death situations.  ESPECIALLY if you have karma.  If you can't...too bad, so sad.

Quote from: "bardbard#4"

Quote from: "Twilight"But it goes down to this:  Getting attacked even by completely badass things should not mean insta-death for a non-combat character, for playability sake.  

For playability's sake, you should know how to avoid insta-death situations.  ESPECIALLY if you have karma.  If you can't...too bad, so sad.

Basically saying F#%@ no0bz.

Quote from: "Forty Winks"

Quote from: "X-D"And it changes most fights into mostly luck, First person to daze wins, so, between two equal warriors its the luck of whoever0 lands that blow first, and I've already seen it several times in sparring. If it would have been other then sparring the other pc would be dead.

There's a flaw in that I believe. I may be wrong, but being dazed just means your commands are put on hold, you're character will still be defending and attacking(?) as usual. So saying a warrior winning by getting a daze hit on another warrior of equal skill won't happen unless the warrior was disarmed first, dazed, then failed the rest of his defense skills so he couldn't flee. What you noticed during a sparring match was likely a match between partners of unequal skill.

That may be the case, but what X-D said may be happening much of the time as well.  From what I've seen, there is a good chance that a daze will either cause your attack rate to be nil or much less and it seemingly has a drastic effect on your defenses as well.  So, without having read the entire thread, I will have to say at this point in time there needs to be some major tweaking with the new code changes.  

Basically it looks to me like the negative effects that daze cause should be tremendously lowered to allow for the fun and playability that was previously the case.  I understand that combat should be something that most people do not want to get involved with in real life, but this is fantasy.  Struggle and combat are why I play the game and it is fun to have fights breaking out all the time on the streets, in bars, or whatever.  

I don't care if it seems cheezy or the elitist RP'ers are whining because someone walked in and starting stabbing their silk-clad fancypants in the head.  At least they had a chance to escape with a missing ear or eyeball or nose or something rather than just being dazed, double dazed, triple dazed and dead.  

Anyway... I'm sure the changes will continue, and it's good to have a more dangerous world, but I'd hate to see the fun, playability, and hilarity of the game be drowned out.  Again, I don't have time to read through the entire thread or to extensively study the changes in the game, so coders/staff please don't take this wrong.  I appreciate the hard work and constant changes toward making the game better... so good luck with this braxat-of-a-task.  ;)  I'm sure the work isn't over.

You are ALL blowing a bagpipe's worth of hot air.

Clearly, entering into combat with last week's mindset will keep most of the naysayers frustrated.  So change your mindset.  Change the way you think about entering into combat, especially the situations that you choose to enter combat.  Change the way you gauge your abilities against other races and suspected classes.

I am exceptionally happy that the staff put this change in.  One of my largest complaints about the game has been it's lack of change and evolution, both in terms of the world and the code.  This is going to shake things up and force all of us to think about the game differently.  Deal with it, or go somewhere else.

Quote from: "bardbard#4"You are ALL blowing a bagpipe's worth of hot air.

Clearly, entering into combat with last week's mindset will keep most of the naysayers frustrated.  So change your mindset.  Change the way you think about entering into combat, especially the situations that you choose to enter combat.  Change the way you gauge your abilities against other races and suspected classes.

I am exceptionally happy that the staff put this change in.  One of my largest complaints about the game has been it's lack of change and evolution, both in terms of the world and the code.  This is going to shake things up and force all of us to think about the game differently.  Deal with it, or go somewhere else.

YES! God forbid we discuss this like mature adults on a -discussion- board, I think instead you should take attitudes like that somewhere else and tell us why you like it. Maybe we haven't realized something you have, again I have said it three times today and I will again for those of you that can't scroll up to read. It's a discussion board, no one is wrong or right, lets discuss it and keep "Like it or go" remarks back in the third grade with the rest of an eight year old mentality where they belong.

Twinks are the biggest cry babies. I'm pretty happy about the changes to, myself, even though it doesn't really 'advantage' my current character or my previous playing style. I'm glad this --== BUG ==-- has been fixed and can no longer be --== EXPLOITED ==--.

Quote from: "Cyrian20"Basically saying F#%@ no0bz.

Excellent university-level writing, right there.  Award this man a PhD!

The real deadliness of daze comes into play when combined with bash.

If you're down from a bash, and the big baddy is getting the bonus for hitting a prone opponent (more damage vs. less defense), the dazes can come every hit before you can get up and flee. Every extra round you're down from bash is potentially deadly.

I'd remove the daze effect from prone opponents, or very much reduce the delay.

Quote from: "bardbard#4"

Quote from: "Cyrian20"Basically saying F#%@ no0bz.

Excellent university-level writing, right there.  Award this man a PhD!

Okay if you want more I will give it to you. I think your post that a person who doesn't
know enough about the world (read: newbies) should die a lot easier is beyond childish. It
is a loser's opinion because losers want people to stay below them however they can.
Also it added nothing to the conversation so I didn't really feel like spending real effort
for what I assumed was an eight year old and I am sorry. In the future I will try my best
not to judge you just by your posts and just push hard to reply like you're an actual adult
okay?

Thank you.  I would ask nothing less from such an enlightened individual, such as yourself.

Now, as to your point about newbies, I disagree.  This does not make the curve more difficult.  It just changes the parameters of the curve.  You can no longer approach combat the way most of us used to, but new players were never exposed to that approach in the first place.  Therefore, how can you say that this automatically handicaps them?  We are all subject to the code, from the first-hour newbie to the 10000 hour veteran.  Furthermore, the code hampers and aids npcs as well, so the playing field in that regard is mostly even.  In fact, I would go so far as to say that new players have an advantage since they will develop under the new code changes from the get-go.  Their growing approach to harnessing the code will be inherently more potent than veterans', since they won't have to shake of the shackles of the old paradigms.

Quote from: "bardbard#4"Thank you.  I would ask nothing less from such an enlightened individual, such as yourself.

Now, as to your point about newbies, I disagree.  This does not make the curve more difficult.  It just changes the parameters of the curve.  You can no longer approach combat the way most of us used to, but new players were never exposed to that approach in the first place.  Therefore, how can you say that this automatically handicaps them?  We are all subject to the code, from the first-hour newbie to the 10000 hour veteran.  Furthermore, the code hampers and aids npcs as well, so the playing field in that regard is mostly even.  In fact, I would go so far as to say that new players have an advantage since they will develop under the new code changes from the get-go.  Their growing approach to harnessing the code will be inherently more potent than veterans', since they won't have to shake of the shackles of the old paradigms.

When in doubt insult right, so here. I was not speaking about how the code effects newbies.

Quote from: "Twilight"
But it goes down to this: Getting attacked even by completely badass things should not mean insta-death for a non-combat character, for playability sake.

Quote from: "Bardbard#4"
For playability's sake, you should know how to avoid insta-death situations. ESPECIALLY if you have karma. If you can't...too bad, so sad.

I was speaking of this comment right here. Also as a side note it was your choice to feel insulted at a reply that was, in the first post, no way directed at you.

Quote from: "Morgenes"If you were to change one thing about daze, what would you change?

I don't know if it needs fixing, but if it does, the only thing that comes to mind is to make it a little harder to get dazed, i.e. raise the threshold some.

What -is- your point then?  I'm having difficulty locating it.

Postscript - You didn't insult me.  I simply wished to make a point that you accused me of acting like an eight-year-old when you had to resort to a bastardization of the English language to get your own point across.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypocritical

Continuing from the post above, I'm not sure if somebody has said it yet, but I could be arsed to read through all eight pages:

I'd assume it's already in place but if not, getting hit on the head or body should daze you more than other locations.

Being hit on the body and head is already taken into account, as those hits do more hp/stun damage, which in turns raises the daze chance.

Being a mul is already taken into account, as muls have more hit points, so x amount of hp/stun is a smaller fraction of their current hp/stun, which in turn lowers the daze chance.

If you jump someone who is unarmed, I don't think it's unreasonable that you should have a sizeable advantage. However, suggesting that whoever dazes first will score a guaranteed kill is a bit disingenuous. If you score a massive hit on an unarmed PC, yes, the odds are tilted in your favour if they stay to fight it out and if no one comes to their aid, which is not particularly unbalanced or unplayable.

If someone couldn't kill you three hits in the first place, I don't think you have much to worry about getting daze-locked and pwnt by zero-day twink assassins. Half-giant assassins, maybe.

I will also reiterate that the player-characters will quickly adjust to the defense change, as it'll be easier for their defense skills to improve if they fail more often. This does tilt things in favour of people who can regularly practice (Bynners, clanned guards, soldiers, etc.) which is not unreasonable.

I feel that the daze-lock doom scenarios are hyperbole and people should hold back a bit before they declare that Armageddon has been poopified by a subtle increase in the brutality of combat. People fighting for their lives should be prepared for a bit of brutality, really.

Having seen the daze code in action and done a bit of testing, I must admit that I don't like it much. Just thought I'd say. It can and possibly will be changed, adjusted and tweaked, but all in all, I don't see what good it does and what it adds other than a huge luck factor suddenly being dumped into the combat code.

Suggested changes:

Make it so that you can't be dazed twice in a row without a brief pause in-between for you to flee.

Allow for drawing weapons while dazed, especially if the above suggestion won't be considered.

Change the fact that once you're down a good chunk of health, any hit above 'lightly' will likely daze you.

I still don't know enough about it to say that these suggestions are an absolute requirment, but that is what a few days of testing and observing made me think.

I bet it already does take into account hit location.  I'm inclined to believe this was very well thought out beforehand.

Perhaps (if it is not already included) a modifier for the Endurance stat (+/-) beyond the effect it already has on your hit/stun points?


Seeker
(who is dazing the PISS out of tregils and vestrics)

Hymwen, why are you so obsessed that this is luck?  It very much has to do with skill.  The higher your skill, the harder you hit.  The harder you hit, the more damage you do.  The more damage you inflict, the greater the chance of landing a dazing blow.

Quote from: "Hymwen"Suggested changes:

Make it so that you can't be dazed twice in a row without a brief pause in-between for you to flee.

Allow for drawing weapons while dazed, especially if the above suggestion won't be considered.

Change the fact that once you're down a good chunk of health, any hit above 'lightly' will likely daze you.

Man... This new upgrade [though realistic] bites because My character got hit once and then the enemy kept hitting straight attacks that made my character continue to reel. I second that option to where you can't be dazed by an attack more than twice in a row because I got jipped, because I was at full health [over 130] and I got hit once and I suddenly started reeling. Then, every blow after that made me reel.

-sigh-

I was so angry...

I don't know why you're using the word obsessed. As for luck, I was refering mostly to the oft-quoted situation where you walk around in the desert and Bigass_NPC_194 walks in from a coded blind angle and mashes you.

Quote from: "jstorrie"I feel that the daze-lock doom scenarios are hyperbole and people should hold back a bit before they declare that Armageddon has been poopified by a subtle increase in the brutality of combat. People fighting for their lives should be prepared for a bit of brutality, really.

No offence but the game was pretty damned challenging to begin with, and, well... I'm not a very good imaginative person and I'm beginning to run out've characters to create... Considering their life expectancy...

Quote from: "Gunnerblaster"No offence but the game was pretty damned challenging to begin with, and, well... I'm not a very good imaginative person and I'm beginning to run out've characters to create... Considering their life expectancy...

Maybe you ought to try playing characters with less dangerous lives. Join a clan, have your character act wisely, and you can survive essentially indefinitely in Zalanthas.

Characters who often take risks will eventually lose. It's the nature of risk-taking. But there are plenty of roles in Zalanthas that don't force your character to risk death every time you log in - and in fact, rational player-characters should gravitate to those roles for their own personal safety.

Quote from: "Hymwen"I don't know why you're using the word obsessed. As for luck, I was refering mostly to the oft-quoted situation where you walk around in the desert and Bigass_NPC_194 walks in from a coded blind angle and mashes you.

I think in my past three or four years of playing, that situation has come up maybe five times.  Out of those five, I think only once did the incoming npc manage to hit me before I took off.  This is such an infrequent occurance.  It is also easily avoidable as you gain experience, and in my opinion, not grounds to modify or remove the daze code.

I dont see what you guys are complaining about the lag. I seen someone get attacked by a certain type of strong race while the person was sitting down, unarmed and only got reeled a single time. The PC that got attacked how plenty of time to stand up and flee before he could get reeled again. So I dont know. I just think you guys are complaining because you cant insta-flee as quick as you used to. Of course it slows you down, but you still have PLENTY of time to react. *shrugs*

Main detriment to the daze code: you can't instaflee.

Which means magickers who act like twinks with their spells, as well as magickers who have spells requiring a close proximity to work or quick cast to escape, will get messed up if they make a mistake. Personally, I think it'll drop the initial roleplay involved with mage vs. mage hunter/targets as people have mentioned earlier, but then again, has there really been much rp in such instances? On the other hand, it really messes up combat-oriented magickers. Yet, I think the daze code (with a few minor adjustments to certain areas) will do nicely, as long as unbalances are corrected.

First, Forty, Staff has already stated that while dazed you lose attacks, you do still defend, but from what I've seen, poorly.

Second, the two warriors in question started the game at the same time and same clan ETC and were, evenly matched.


Funny thing is, Daze code HEAVILY favors my current PC and I still hate it.

I'm not opposed to the idea of being able to daze an opponent, but from what I've seen, it can in some circumstances be way too much. I would like to see the delay shortened because it currently seems to be about the same as bash, and I would like to see it not depend so much on the current hp of whoever is taking the hits. If you have a strong combat PC, attacking an unarmed opponent will almost definitely result in a lot of damage in the first round and if the victim has less than great endurance it's pretty easy from what I've seen to get them into a reel lock. If you're a human ranger with average strength, no, you might not daze people every other round. If you're a human warrior with extremely good or higher, from personal experience and what I've witnessed, it's really rare to do less than solid/very hard on an unarmed opponent, even without much combat training.

I would like to see combat outcome depend more on the reflexes, knowledge and actual skill as opposed to who got the attack on an unarmed person and got a lucky first round (or an average first round, with some PCs).

Quote from: "Mudder"I dont see what you guys are complaining about the lag. I seen someone get attacked by a certain type of strong race while the person was sitting down, unarmed and only got reeled a single time. The PC that got attacked how plenty of time to stand up and flee before he could get reeled again. So I dont know. I just think you guys are complaining because you cant insta-flee as quick as you used to. Of course it slows you down, but you still have PLENTY of time to react. *shrugs*

As for who has seen what, things will differ - you've seen someone get attacked by someone else and not get dazed much, I have seen someone attacked by a human character and be dazed from the initial round and until they were dead. And it's easy to make assumptions as to why people complain, and throw out a degrading example. If we complain, it must be because we can no longer twink against you, right?

Edit to add:

And I don't think armor affects this enough. Wearing decent armor should add more than the often minimal damage reduction when it comes to preventing daze.

I just wanted to jump in here and perform a little bit of a redirect on this discussion.

I don't want to comment one way or another about whether I think daze happens too often, lasts too long, should still allow you to flee, or any of the other suggestions/complaints posed in this thread.

Rather, I wanted to talk a little bit about the potentials for this code so that, while folks are making complaints and suggestions about changing it, a broader view is apparent.

Let's suppose that you attack me, and I'm buff enough that I can deliver the virtual equivalent of a bitch-slap with my sword after you do so. You get dazed. I then have the opportunity to disengage and combat stops.

The potential then becomes that I can end combat, turn around, and ignore you like the puppy you are, and you can realize you nearly got your shit handed to you, and you can sit down.

Or I can turn to take down your buddy who tried to stab me in the back while you punked me out without suffering a penalty for multiple combatants...

While this emphasizes the decided discrepancy between those advanced in their combat skills and those who are more specifically novices, I think there's also a lot of valuable potential for this for arena games or other combat-oriented role play.

I'm just not sure that it's being used up to its potential yet. And that may be something to evaluate in scripts, AI, or other areas on our part. But, honestly, this is up to you guys, too.

Honestly Djarjak that sounds awsome. And I would love it except for the fact that it's going to end up lowering the mortality rate of PCs, possibly drasticly. It's been in place for around 6 days now and I've read of at least six different PCs dieing from it when normaly they wouldn't have, Now i don't know what the statistics are on how many PCs die a day right now but that seems to be pretty drastic to be adding another PC per day dieing since it's inception and no doubt i not every one has posted about they're character dieing from it. Hell I almost died from it.
I still especially think that before a second daze can be applied it aught to let you at least attempt to flee. As well as draw weapons while dazed, the only thing that would really stop you from drawing a weapon while you've been knocked on your ass or just off balance or whatnot is a blow to the head.

I know where you're coming from, Djarjak.  Believe me, I do.  Still, slight criticism...with how fast combat goes past, getting out that 'disengage' before you continue to hand his ass to that green novice over there?  Maybe not so possible.

Is it possible to have an 'auto-disengage when opponent dazed' ...thingy?  Maybe something that you'd use the 'change' command for?

Quotedon't know what the statistics are on how many PCs die a day right now

No significant change in the number of PCs dying from day to day. As people get used to the code, it will level off entirely, most likely. And the deaths we've been seeing are pretty much the same -kinds- of deaths, in the same places, to the same things as always. Quite literally nothing new under the sun. In related news from the Department of Slightly Exaggerated Statistics That Mock Your Pain, Team PC has, for the 378th week running, failed to even beat the spread against Team Sand Raptor.

Quote from: "jstorrie"Maybe you ought to try playing characters with less dangerous lives.

My character hardly went out into the dunes, so his life was those of an indoor cat. Your saying that just because I go outside, once, I deserve to get run down by an 18-wheeler? If so, what's the point in even playing? I mean, don't get me wrong, the inside-city life is great an all but there's times when you NEED to go out and then you get owned. A certain critter that I was capable of easily handling suddenly 'pinched' my char's wrist and I was dazed? That doesn't make sense. Then, I was continously 'dazed' after that. You speak of it so lightly now but you'd be just as turked off if the same thing happened to you, ESPECIALLY if your char was at max at all stats, then one little 'wrist pinch' destroys months of game-play in less than 5 minutes.

Actually, having the "mercy on" attribute force an auto disengage when opponent becomes dazed is an idea I would like to see discussed further.

If the rate of combat is a concern for folks, maybe that is something that we should be discussing here, too.

Also, something that is less suited for the boards than for e-mail might be whether there are specific mobs or scripted special commands that are causing a problem moreso than others? Or, at what level of difference between combatants does this -really- become a problem?

Keep in mind that the staff plays the game, too. Many of us play it on the same terms that you do and we all face the same code. There's no special imm off switch for our PCs on these, either. Yes, the desert should have teeth, and mundane combat should be dangerous. But let's keep in mind here that there's a longer end game for a lot of the code changes that are put in, and make the assumption during posting that the people who volunteer their time to make the code changes aren't specifically in the business to screw over your personal PC when they make changes.

I'm divided on having "mercy" auto-disengage you from combat. Some people may want to beat their opponent unconcious, but not kill them, so they'll have mercy on - but to knock the guy out you may need to daze him a few times first. Another setting might work? You could have mercy "daze/kill/off", to reflect the relevant levels of when you stop beating someone down.

I wouldn't be opposed to slowing down the rate of combat, either - fights might take longer, but if you made the time between combat "rounds" about 50% longer, people would have more time to enter commands, spam flee, and... even emote.

Quote from: "Dude with WAY too small font size"A certain critter that I was capable of easily handling suddenly 'pinched' my char's wrist and I was dazed? That doesn't make sense. Then, I was continously 'dazed' after that. You speak of it so lightly now but you'd be just as turked off if the same thing happened to you, ESPECIALLY if your char was at max at all stats, then one little 'wrist pinch' destroys months of game-play in less than 5 minutes.

I'm thinking when the game says "pinches your wrist", what it means is "takes a giant freaking pincer and clamps down on your wrist, all but cutting off your hand". That may be enough pain to daze someone, yeah.

On the other hand, the suggestions I've seen about having daze only kick in if you're hit in certain places (body/head/neck?) and have armor reduce the chance of getting dazed both sound good.

I actually LOVE the 'mercy on' forcing an automatic disengage on dazed opponents.  What is mercy?  You don't want to kill the person.  Beating someone senseless with dazing or beating them near to death...you're trying to avoid killing while still beatin' them silly to some extent.  If you want to continue beating on them because you think this chump hasn't quite learned his lesson?  Continue by doing something to that person after disengaging.

Quote from: "Jherlen"I'm thinking when the game says "pinches your wrist", what it means is "takes a giant freaking pincer and clamps down on your wrist, all but cutting off your hand". That may be enough pain to daze someone, yeah.

On the other hand, the suggestions I've seen about having daze only kick in if you're hit in certain places (body/head/neck?) and have armor reduce the chance of getting dazed both sound good.

Okay, a bit of exageration on my half but the attack was similar and it wasn't some deadly blow, like you mentioned. But getting pinched anywhere dazed me... Oh well... I can't really press the matter. Nothing I can do about it and complaining about dying won't get my char back so... I'm done putting my opinion in on ANY new code, even if it kills my char.

I never liked how combat was totally one sided in Armageddon much and prefered the novice getting in some lucky hits being a worthwhile scare, especially if said newbie had a big fucking sword (tm).

The concept of two newbies with big fucking swords (tm) is always something I felt should be dangerous to even a veteran combatant.

While my pc being hit by stuff that never could touch him straight out of the Hall of Kings is definitely a surprise, it's not one I totally disagree with. It'll definitely change certain player group's hunting lifestyles to more realistic goals as well as veteran warriors not taunting groups of 2 just because they know they havn't fulfilled the bonuses for surrounding an opponent yet.

No more showing your uber skills against 8 cord long worms to impress the ladies.. or bending shelled half giants over your knee..

Hot Dancer

Quote from: "Gunnerblaster"I'm done putting my opinion in on ANY new code, even if it kills my char.

And that will show us.

Don't be so quick to want to take your ball and go home.  Some great things have come up in this discussion.  All resulting from a lack of consensual agreement.  It is the agitator in the washing machine that gets the clothes clean.

And, we don't know yet that PCs will never be able to acheive that former level of defense.  It might just take longer, but still be entirely reachable.


Seeker

Quote from: "Seeker"It is the agitator in the washing machine that gets the clothes clean.


Seeker

Er... So, what I'm hearing is that if I wash my computer in the washing machine, I'll get my char back?

>.<

Quote from: "spawnloser"I actually LOVE the 'mercy on' forcing an automatic disengage on dazed opponents.  What is mercy?  You don't want to kill the person.  Beating someone senseless with dazing or beating them near to death...you're trying to avoid killing while still beatin' them silly to some extent.  If you want to continue beating on them because you think this chump hasn't quite learned his lesson?  Continue by doing something to that person after disengaging.

Nosar!  In fact, you actually hate the idea and just typoed your response.

There are plenty of times I've wanted to beat someone unconcious, but not actually kill them.  If your robbing someone, if your going to take someone to  be interrogated, if you just REALLY want to wail away on someone.  Do I care if they are just dazed?  Hell no, I want them in a pile on the floor.

What if you're really the man and daze someone on the very first hit?  My understanding based on previous posts is that the daze lag is shorter than the lag you get from typing "kill tuluki" - meaning if you daze someone initially and have mercy on, they would get the drop on you.

What if your a class that uses moves like backstab/sap?  Seems a bit odd that having mercy on would allow you to automagickally stop combat and allow yourself to re-backstab/sap shortly there after.

There is already a change target command for combat and I'm just not convinced the 1.5 seconds of "daze" that a person gets is going to be any real benefit to you - your going to hit his friend and he's going to assist right after that.  Do you really want that tradeoff?  A single round of "one on one" combat which then allows a second person to perform combat initiating moves like sap/backstab?

In my opinion, the way to resolve all of the problems with "daze" is to do the following:
1) Lower the percent chance to daze for moderate hits.
2) Give all players an unarmed combat skill (to fix magickers and players caught off gaurd).   Please note this is not the same as offense/defense - this would actually be you training without a weapon to become better at it, not just better at any type of combat.
3) Flee should work through daze if you are below 40% of your max hitpoints.  The trade off would be that you drop anything in your hands in your all out fight/flight panicked attempt to escape.
4) All new players who "point tuluk" should start off poisoned.

Quote from: "Slink"

Quote from: "spawnloser"I actually LOVE the 'mercy on' forcing an automatic disengage on dazed opponents.  What is mercy?  You don't want to kill the person.  Beating someone senseless with dazing or beating them near to death...you're trying to avoid killing while still beatin' them silly to some extent.  If you want to continue beating on them because you think this chump hasn't quite learned his lesson?  Continue by doing something to that person after disengaging.

Nosar!  In fact, you actually hate the idea and just typoed your response.

There are plenty of times I've wanted to beat someone unconcious, but not actually kill them.  If your robbing someone, if your going to take someone to  be interrogated, if you just REALLY want to wail away on someone.  Do I care if they are just dazed?  Hell no, I want them in a pile on the floor.

Seconded. I don't usually kill PCs, but I do leave very often leave them stunned and naked in box somewhere. This would hamper that.

I can see this is a hot topic of debate here on the GDB, so the naughty monkey feels COMPELLED to drop his own feces onto the scene.

:twisted:

I don't mean to be preachy, but here's my take on this in a nut-shell:

1.  Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword.

This isn't just some esoteric statement by a spiritual leader.  It's just plain common sense.  If you make a living by violence, your life will statistically be a short one and you will most likely die by violence.

I think we can all agree that alot of professions in Zalanthas rely upon some form of violent activity.  Or at least subject the professional to chances that some form of violence will be present in their lives.

This is one reason why life in Zalanthas is nasty, brutish and short.  Those who engage in professions of violence should simply accept the consequences of their way of life.

2.  Nature selects the creatures most responsive to the environment for survival.  So, Zalanthan creatures are more robust than terrestrial ones.  Naturally.  The environment is alot harsher.  But this doesn't mean that less robust creatures are not born into the world.  It simply means they are less likely to reproduce and spread their less robust genes.

Those who are stronger, faster and hardier of body and mind tend to live while those who aren't suffer and die.

If you're not strong, you'd better be quick.  If you're not strong or quick, your body had better be able to withstand alot of damage and still recover.

If you don't have any strengths among these traits, then you'd better choose a life path that doesn't (or at least doesn't often) place you in harm's way.  Otherwise, you will die....and die very quickly.

3.  No matter how bad-ass you think you are....there's always someone or some thing out there more bad-ass than you.  Sooner or later, you are gonna cross paths with that other and chances are you -will- die.

4.  No matter how bad-ass you think you are...Fortuna is your greatest ally and your greatest enemy in one.  Sometimes the difference between survival and death in Zalanthas is simply SHEER LUCK.  Sorry, but it is true.  I've played characters whose physical traits, mental acquity and experience in life placed them VERY high in the ranks of bad-assdom.  Sorry, they died.  Either they weren't experienced enough to handle the situation they put themselves in, or they met someone or something more bad-ass, or they simply weren't lucky enough.  Sometimes all three.

Honestly, I think the 'dazed' code simply amplifies the fact that hardier, smarter, more learned members of a species will outlive the less hardy, smart and learned members and will be more likely to reproduce.  Seems to me that its implementation is an attempt by staff to add even more realism to the game, and I support it 100%, and again am in awe of the imagination and coding expertise of the Arm staff coders.

Potential pit-falls I see in this code:
1.  It will make it much less likely for individual, unskilled mages to live alone in the wilds.  Well, mages, sorcerers and other "outcasts" of society SHOULD be rare.  Most of them should die well before achieving any sort of expertise with their powers.

2.  Armed sentients will have the upper hand against unarmed ones when a fight begins.  Well...D'uh!  Of course!  It is up to you as the player to properly roleplay your character as you see fit within the bounds of personality and storyline realism.  Don't blame code for the death of your characters when that death is directly attributable to your own actions or inactions.  Whether that be based on realitic behavior or not.

I've lost MANY favored characters due to my own actions or inactions in game....some based directly upon the characters' personality and some because I wasn't paying attention as a player.  It sucks.  I sniffle.  I mope....I get over it and I make another character vowing to play the next one realistically and keep focused.  And if I can't keep focused on the game....to log out when it is appropriate to do so from an IC perspective.

Before you engage in ANY activity (violent or otherwise) with a character in Zalanthas, ask yourself some important questions:

1.  Is the action realistic?
2.  Is this action ICly necessary?
3.  Would my character VIEW it as such?
4.  Would my character, if given the time, consider the consequences?
5.  Would my character give a damn about the consequences?
6.  If something goes wrong, could my character extricate him/herself?
7.  Is my character SMART enough to even think about that in time...much-less care?
8.  Do I, as a player, have the time to deal with the consequences of my character's actions?  IE (Uh, I want to hunt another scrab to fulfill my character's daily quota for the boss, but I've only got 20 minutes before I gotta log out.  What should I do?)  My take?  Log out now, or find something else to do besides put your character in harm's way for the next 20 minutes...and bag that scrab another day.

Dazed code should be the LEAST of your concerns when choosing a path of violence for your character.  Gods, there must be hundreds of different ways to die in this game.  This code only makes it much more likely and realistically so...that you will have problems when fighting strong, powerful characters or creatures.  That's all, really.

Have fun with the wonderful new code!
:twisted:

For the overall fun and playability of the game, my vote is going toward backing off on reality just a little bit.  I've always loved the realism of Armageddon, but only because it was balanced with playability and enjoyment of what you were doing.  Nobody wants the game to be as realistic as real-life because then what would be the point of playing a fantasy game?

One of the major reasons that the staff and players have always used to back this point up is that the people of Zalanthas are exceptionally tough and have evolved beyond what might be realistic here on Earth.  Sure, being stabbed very hard or pinched on the arm by a giant insect might, in real-life, cause one to be stunned or dazed - but do we really want this happening in the game so often?  Maybe to a certain extent, and as I've said before - I know things are probably going to be tweaked or we will simply learn to live with the changes and I give many chewy granola bars to the staff for their hard work.

But to continue the 'discussion' (don't take this as bitching or whining) I'd just like to put in my two cents.  I think mainly hits to the head or perhaps to a small extent, hard hits to other areas, should cause a 'daze' or whatnot... but then again, isn't this why "stun" was put in the game?  Before the change, when you get stunned enough, you got dazed or knocked out for a while.  This just seems to be a little too much double-jeopardy going on.  Having said all that, I am still excited about the changes taking place toward making the combat system on Arm even more awesome...

Quote from: "naatok"I've lost MANY favored characters due to my own actions or inactions in game....some based directly upon the characters' personality and some because I wasn't paying attention as a player.

Not to derail: but only if the players knew just how true this was. I think "naatok" has become slang on staff for losing a powerful, long-lived, and interesting PC in a bizarre and often careless fashion (no offense Naatok).

Re Naatok:

I still maintain it was a bad idea to try to jumpstart the geriatic dwarf having a heart attack by casting lightning on him.

But it sure makes for a good story.


And I apologize for derailing us further.

For what it's worth, there's a lot of testing happening on the staff side of things.  Nusku, for example, has been patiently setting up fights between two classes and recording the results to see if they're reasonable.

Feedback is useful, particularly feedback that is precise, detailed, and helps us figure out game balance issues.  Things like "this code sucks and I hate you all"...eh, not quite so helpful.

Some research of a different sort: this is what I envision getting dazed during a fight looking like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSW6WTRWkgk

You can see some of the people trying to get away from their opponent, but they are literally reeling as the other guy follows through.

Quote from: "Nusku"Some research of a different sort: this is what I envision getting dazed during a fight looking like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSW6WTRWkgk

Those are rarer cases actually, as I often get 'dazed' in the ring and are always able to either sprawl back (since many people will shoot for a slam while your 'dazed') or shoot in (by the time you hit the ground your not dazed and a 'dazing' hit often takes a lot more out of your opponent so their sprawl isn't usually that clean)

Anyways just two cents, played around with the daze code today and the lowered daze time, I think, works very well. There will still be daze lock that kills you from max life to zero, but it will happen less often now which is a good enough fix until a more robust system can be coded.

Quote from: "Nusku"Some research of a different sort: this is what I envision getting dazed during a fight looking like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSW6WTRWkgk

You can see some of the people trying to get away from their opponent, but they are literally reeling as the other guy follows through.

Just watched the video, plus some.  :lol:

I think a good example of both hits that cause daze and those that I think shouldn't, IG, can be seen from a similar one from youtube.
Muay Thai

Watching that, you're able to see that solid blows to the body (knee/foot to arm/thigh) doesn't 'daze' the opponent as a solid hit to the head (you to notice those guys are wearing padded gloves...think of a bare fist or elbow to the temples). The current code though doesn't differentiate between a solid hit to the head or a solid hit to the hand except the amount of health lost and thus the daze length is the same.

If the daze code was to be made as realistic as possible (in a game world), I'd like to see a hit to the limbs be less to null in daze length than a solid 'daze' hit to the head, with solid hits to the body what it currently is in daze length.

Quote from: "Forty Winks"

Quote from: "Nusku"Some research of a different sort: this is what I envision getting dazed during a fight looking like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSW6WTRWkgk

You can see some of the people trying to get away from their opponent, but they are literally reeling as the other guy follows through.

Just watched the video, plus some.  :lol:

I think a good example of both hits that cause daze and those that I think shouldn't, IG, can be seen from a similar one from youtube.
Muay Thai

Watching that, you're able to see that solid blows to the body (knee/foot to arm/thigh) doesn't 'daze' the opponent as a solid hit to the head (you to notice those guys are wearing padded gloves...think of a bare fist or elbow to the temples). The current code though doesn't differentiate between a solid hit to the head or a solid hit to the hand except the amount of health lost and thus the daze length is the same.

If the daze code was to be made as realistic as possible (in a game world), I'd like to see a hit to the limbs be less to null in daze length than a solid 'daze' hit to the head, with solid hits to the body what it currently is in daze length.

Look up 'real' kyokushin fighting (not the style used in the U.S.A.) You will see guys delivering none stop bare-knuckle blows to the other's body as well as knees, elbow strikes, and amazing chudan mawashigeris (rib kicks).
A kyokushin fighter is trained to take these* without wearing any armor at all, if the average human (these aren't pro fighters) can do it so can a zalanthian. I will say it is already improving and if people continue to post ideas we are bound to get something that everyone can agree upon... except for the twinks and the people that keep claiming anyone that doesn't like it is a twink... which I shall now refer to as a twunk.

DOWN WITH TWINKS AND TWUNKS, YAY! TO GOOD OPINION SHARER..ERS!


*on a note actually being dazed or showing pain gives your opponent a half point, do it twice and you lose.

Quote
Sanvean Wrote:
Re Naatok:

I still maintain it was a bad idea to try to jumpstart the geriatic dwarf having a heart attack by casting lightning on him.

But it sure makes for a good story.

ROFLMAO

Gods!  Won't you please just let that DIE?!   :lol:

That was a mistake!
Besides, the funniest part was after lightning was cast to jump-start the poor old geezer.  I still laugh at the scene that rp planted in my head:

Clubbing the geriatric dwarf in the head repeatedly with his staff, the slim, hook-nosed man exclaims, in sirihish:
"Wake up, dammit!  Wake UP!!!"

Sorry.  heh heh.  I HAD to respond.
And I can't honestly say I'm sorry for derailing this thread further, although I will apologize.   :twisted:

I see some work has been done to daze.

Looks like it is coming along.

Least Now my PC is not getting dazed by a hard blow to the hand.