A contrived example. Not a log. Room descriptions omitted for brevity.
>think The sun is beating down so harshly today.
>raise hood
>e
Caravan Way [EW]
The man with gigantic eyes is standing here.
>
The man with gigantic eyes looks at you.
>e
Caravan Way [EW]
>
The tiny little girl arrives from the west.
>
The tiny little girl looks at you.
>e
Caravan Way [EWS]
>em lets herself be carried along by the thick crowd.
AKwK lets herself by carried along by the thick crowd.
>
The big fat man arrives from the west.
The slope-browed half-giant arrives from the west.
>
The big fat man looks at you.
>
The slope-browed half-giant looks at you.
>
The slope-browed half-giant burps.
>s
[Theyak's Walk] [NS]
>em walks along at a relaxed pace, letting a thick dwarf making his way through the crowd create a path for her.
... walks along at a relaxed pace, letting a thick dwarf making his way through the crowd create a path for her.
>s
[Theyak's Walk] [NSE]
>e
[Dorna's Doorknob Shop] [W]
A hawk-nosed, dark-eyed woman tends the shop here.
>
A lanky thatch-haired half-elf arrives from the west.
>
A lanky thatch-haired half-elf looks at you.
>
Am I alone in being driven crazy by this? It's like have someone walk up to you and shove their face right into the cowl of your hood everywhere you go.
In the middle of a heavy crowd? It doesn't matter.
Walking down a darkened street with heavy shadows? It doesn't matter.
They will home in on you like the proverbial vestric.
Blah.
Well, people can't really have a realistic interaction with the NPC and vNPC world so they are just trying to see who is around and is not an automated robot. I don't really see what is wrong with it at all.
If you really want not to be bothered by the PCs, you should use some stealth skills or magick to cloak your presence. After all, there is a coded way to get lost in the crowds.
Not to mention that a PC can't tell if you're wearing something they would notice without looking. How do you know they arn't looking for the guy/gal wearing a red-cloak? or keeping their eyes open for a Kuraci? Maybe they are searching for something with blue skin or emerald eyes? Not everything is obvious via sdesc. Just because a player 'look's doesn't mean they are getting right up in your face. If they are, they should emote it. If they don't, they didn't.
*plink plink*
This is the perennial problem with the lack of a "glance" command.
At least assess -v tells you if someone's armed, these days. But it's still not possible to walk past a random stranger, paying them no particular attention, and be aware of the colour and design of their cloak, aba or robe unless they've got their hood up. If you're looking for a Kuraci, say, you have to scrutinise everyone you pass with such attention you can count the rings on their fingers - just so you can see their affiliation.
I do find "look" jarring when it's used on people who're merely crossing peripheral vision, and I try to use it only on people who have my character's attention. But this can lead to problems when someone is nearby wearing something very noticeable that my character should respond to, but we haven't entered conversation.
I personally try not to use look unless I am giving that particular PC attention. If I do briefly glance, I make use of command emotes to signify that it's a passing glance. The reason I do this is because, yes, the look command can become jarring, and it also signifies some level of interest that may or may not be there.
This makes me want to put my chips in on an alteration to the look command. Not a glance command like everyone is suggesting, but a revision to look to be more realistic, going off of a watch check (which amounts to your characters perception of his/her surroundings), and only displaying a message to characters who pass their watch check. Highly affected by whether you are actively watching target or initiate.
If you\'re looking for a Kuraci (to use the example) you can just
l lanky\'s dun
If he\'s a Kuraci, something he\'s wearing will have the word \"dun\" in its list of keywords. If he\'s wearing a dun-something, then you know you\'ve found a Kuraci (if not the specific Kuraci you\'re looking for) and can do the \"look lanky\" with an emote showing that you\'re noticing his dun-thing and appear to be interested in him.
You can do that with most clans, since most of them have something in their uniform that isn\'t common for people not in their clans. Aba is a good keyword to look for, if you\'re trying to find out if that girl over there is a militia guard or a Bynner. If she isn\'t wearing an aba, then she isn\'t either one of them.
Armbands, aba, dun, blaze, gem, signet, cloak, sun, cross
All keywords that can help you find out if the person in the room is someone your character -would- take interest in, or if it was someone they would want to intentionally ignore. And all of those things are things that your character -would- notice, even if the guy\'s hood was up.
L. Stanson
Quote from: "Ghost"If you really want not to be bothered by the PCs, you should use some stealth skills or magick to cloak your presence. After all, there is a coded way to get lost in the crowds.
I shouldn't have to dart from doorway to shaded alley to doorway just to be someone anonymous.
It's like I'm wearing a blazing neon pink batgirl outfit with steel accessories. Drawing all eyes from every direction.
Quote from: "Marc"How do you know they arn't looking for the guy/gal wearing a red-cloak? or keeping their eyes open for a Kuraci? Maybe they are searching for something with blue skin or emerald eyes? Not everything is obvious via sdesc. Just because a player 'look's doesn't mean they are getting right up in your face. If they are, they should emote it. If they don't, they didn't.
*plink plink*
This would explain one or two mysterious looks, but definitely not getting special attention from every single PC you happen to cross paths with.
Quote from: "Lizzie"If you\'re looking for a Kuraci (to use the example) you can just
l lanky\'s dun
If he\'s a Kuraci, something he\'s wearing will have the word \"dun\" in its list of keywords. If he\'s wearing a dun-something, then you know you\'ve found a Kuraci (if not the specific Kuraci you\'re looking for) and can do the \"look lanky\" with an emote showing that you\'re noticing his dun-thing and appear to be interested in him.
You can do that with most clans, since most of them have something in their uniform that isn\'t common for people not in their clans. Aba is a good keyword to look for, if you\'re trying to find out if that girl over there is a militia guard or a Bynner. If she isn\'t wearing an aba, then she isn\'t either one of them.
Armbands, aba, dun, blaze, gem, signet, cloak, sun, cross
All keywords that can help you find out if the person in the room is someone your character -would- take interest in, or if it was someone they would want to intentionally ignore. And all of those things are things that your character -would- notice, even if the guy\'s hood was up.
L. Stanson
You don't even need to do that in many cases. If it's a Kuraci you're looking for, and she has her hood up, you'll see a figure wearing a dun-colored cloak.
I look at people even if my character can hardly notice them.
Why?
Because maybe they're holding someone's disembodied head (what draws attention from the VNPC crowd).
Maybe they're wearing a ten-foot cactus as a hat.
Maybe there is something about them that my character would find completely unignorable, which I as a player cannot determine before looking at them.
At other times, I just do it to see if it's an NPC or a PC. I'm not as big on solo-RP as I used to be, unfortunately, and if I see an NPC wandering around I won't often emote around them. If I can identify the character as a PC, I know to start doing things.
The method of "look person's signet/dun/whatever" to determine whether they belong in a particular clan is very prone to mistakes. Many characters will simply not be wearing their clan gear, or they might have clan gear you don't know. They might have clan tattoos you won't be able to see, either coded or in their mdesc.
It's a good method in limited situations, but I prefer to just "look man" instead of doing this:
> checkout [<-- custom alias] dude
look dude's signet
look dude's robe
look dude's epaulette
look dude's braids
look dude's shoulder
look dude's dun
look dude's jade
look dude's templar
look dude's spice
look dude's striped
look dude's sash
Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"
I shouldn't have to dart from doorway to shaded alley to doorway just to be someone anonymous.
Actually, not really. In the crowded places, city hide works out as getting lost in the crowd. The hide command in crowded places does give that echo to you as well.
> hide
>You attempt to blend in the crowds (or something similar to that)
So yes, if you really don't want attention, there is the code for it. If you don't have it, or prefer not to use it, then some of the people will look at you in the road.
By the same token, there is like lets say 50 people in the street. And two of them looked at you passing by? I don't see anything wrong at this picture.
Just a note: not all Kuraci wear dun cloaks, not all Kadians wear armbands, not all merchants/nobles will have their signets visible (some will be wearing gloves), and so on: the list of exceptions is fairly long. Lizzie's method, while convenient sometimes, isn't always reliable.
Personally, I think a look is just a look. I don't notice when everyone looks at me and neither will my pc. Looking at somebody doesn't have to be a long stare, it can just be a brief glance.
Walking down even a shadowy alley with your hood up does not mean "omgz I am invisible now anyone who looks at me is a poor rper!" It means, you are a person, with a hood up, walking down a shadowy alley. If I passed you I'd probably look at you too, to make sure you weren't going to jump me.
When you look at my character, you get to see every little detail about her appearance. When her hood is up, this implies considerable effort.
Maybe there should be a silent version of the look command that just provides sdesc and the visible inventory list, rather than ldesc and the visible inventory list. That would seem more suitable for passing someone hooded in the street.
Most people will be nice and not use all the info look gives them if someone is hooded, wearing a facewrap, etc. Some will, but some people will always be twinks.
Again, as Ghost said: If it's really that important that you go unseen, then use seldom-traveled routes and/or employ some kind of stealth skills or magick. A hood is not a magickal shield against attention.
Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"When you look at my character, you get to see every little detail about her appearance. When her hood is up, this implies considerable effort.
Maybe there should be a silent version of the look command that just provides sdesc and the visible inventory list, rather than ldesc and the visible inventory list. That would seem more suitable for passing someone hooded in the street.
For christ's sake, it's only look. I don't understand why this is such a big deal.
Quote from: "jcarter"Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"When you look at my character, you get to see every little detail about her appearance. When her hood is up, this implies considerable effort.
Maybe there should be a silent version of the look command that just provides sdesc and the visible inventory list, rather than ldesc and the visible inventory list. That would seem more suitable for passing someone hooded in the street.
For christ's sake, it's only look. I don't understand why this is such a big deal.
It not a big deal when only one or two PCs do it. But it gets annoying when every single PC your character happens upon does it.
If I am looking at you, I am looking at you. I would not be after a sdesc or something specific for a passerby. I would be after something out of the place. Just like Larrath said. I would look for a weapon in the hand, for a really striking tattoo, for nakedness, for lost limb, for a glowing amulet.
If anything did happen to be out of place about you, I would pretend that I saw it. If not, I would pretend some nobody just passed me. What do I care? So it is left to the PC on the other side of the deal.
On the other hand, still it is all too realistic to get looks on your PC.
Quote from: "Anonymous Kank with Wings"Maybe there should be a silent version of the look command that just provides sdesc and the visible inventory list,
Actually, asses -v does it. Does not echo, gives your sdesc. And you get to see the visible inventory from the desc the room provides for you.
Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"
It not a big deal when only one or two PCs do it. But it gets annoying when every single PC your character happens upon does it.
As I said earlier, why is it a big deal? You are walking with like 20-50 people in the street. Why is it so annoying a few people looked at you as walk by?
Thats a load of crap Anonymous. If I look at you and your hood up, that doesn't mean I'm making more effort then if you don't. If people are role-playing and taking environment into account (and you have to assume they are, even if they're not like they should be) they will realize they can't see that tattoo on your ass that's in your mdesc because you are wearing a pair of jeans and not your regular clear plastic skirt.
To play and enjoy armageddon you simply have to have faith in other players staying in character.
Since it is just lines of code there will always be ways to find a loophole or abuse ooc information or identify someone based on that mdesc ass tattoo. It's just in the cards. If you feel someone is 'cheating' email the mud account and the staff will handle it. That's where karma comes in. karma=trust and if a player abuses situations they lose it. Perfect? Not hardly. Is there a solution? Not really.
We could have character descriptions formulated and ppl just enter information in fields:
What color are your eyes? Blue
What color is your skin? Green
What color is your hair? Ivory
What cup size is your chest? B
etc etc etc
and then just have a cheesy ass standard vanilla description for everyone where parts that are covered by clothing don't show up. Someone can probably come up with a more elegant solution, but my point is if the code takes care of too much, we the players lose out on being creative with our descriptions or anything really depending on the the subject.
Trust fellow players just don't trust their characters.
I know that, if my character is conscious and at all paying attention to his surrounds (ie has the possibility of seeing a pc, periphrial [sic?] or not)I will look at them.
Oh yeah: there is a SKILL that lets you see sdesc and equipment lists without echoing. It's called peek. Problem is it DOES echo if you fail the skill check which wont help the majority of players
Quote from: "Ghost"Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"
It not a big deal when only one or two PCs do it. But it gets annoying when every single PC your character happens upon does it.
As I said earlier, why is it a big deal? You are walking with like 20-50 people in the street. Why is it so annoying a few people looked at you as walk by?
Because they're getting information that feels like an invasion of privacy.
If my hooded character is walking down the street across from yours, and yours gives her a casual glance, do you get to note the style of her hair? The color of her eyes? The shape of her face?
Not unless you practically shove your face into hers.
It like having each person walk up, grab her hood and go "yoinks!" :shock:
A silent look or a different command with a difference message (glance or whatever) that just gives sdesc, equipment, held objects and gender would solve this perfectly.
[quote}For christ's sake[/quote]
QuoteThis is a load of crap
Hmm, well, I think I've said enough. If people can't understand the simple point I'm trying to make, I don't know what more I can add.
Oh, I know it isn\'t always reliable. But I RP with it that way on purpose. To me, it makes sense that a noble, who is in a bar, without his guard, and his hands covered with gloves, could possibly be confused with a noble\'s aide or high-ranking member of their house guard. I don\'t see his signet ring, I see only some silk clothing with the house insignia on it, and he\'s not with his guard. So sure, he\'s with the house, but he might not be a noble. Or he might be. How would my character react to this confusion? It\'s fun to play that out, and so I use this method on purpose.
The same goes for dun. Most Kuraci members I\'ve seen either have a dun cloak, or a dun container, or a dun spice pipe, or something with the keyword \"dun\" in it. So it makes sense that I would wonder why this girl who is -not- wearing something with dun on it, is serving the Kuraci at the table next to me. Is she a Kurac aide? Or is she just some slovenly no-body trying to suck up to the Kuraci for free spice? How would my character react to that confusion?
Things that most characters, in most clans, would typically wear or have intheir hands, are things that I allow my character to notice when she is trying to find out how they are affiliated, and if they are affiliated. If my character can\'t find those things, it makes good sense for her to wonder, be confused, make incorrect assumptions, etc. etc. It raises the potential for conflict, to -not- bow to someone in nice clothing but not displaying their signet ring. And the potential for conflict is always fun, for me. It gives me something to RP off, and encourages me to use the \"think\" command even more. Or maybe way my girlfriend across the room talking with her boyfriend to ask her if she knows who that silk-wearing guy is. Or otherwise get some interaction going. It may not work for everyone. It doesn\'t work in every situation. But I\'ve enjoyed doing it that way so far.
L. Stanson
People understand the point you are making. You don't want people to see you when you're not hiding, not invisible, not wearing an mdesc mask. You want to be incognito without using the coded tools available. You want a new tool so people wont look at your mdesc.
Sounds crazy to me. Understandable lunacy, but insanity all the same
But by the same token, you are holding a neon lamp in your hand, and passing me by and I am not seeing it?
Or you are wearing an amulet that is shining bright?
Or a funny hat?
Or you have your face covered with hair?
Or you are naked and flashing your boobs in my direction?
Or your boots are metal?
Or there is a spider carved in your leggings which was mine before but it was stolen?
Or your hands have needles sticking out.
Or there is a tattoo carved somewhere on you and I have been looking for a person having that tattoo (Really this happened to be a case once)
...
....
There could be more but I am cutting it here since I believe I covered almost all of the wear locations. About your ldesc, well, your hands could be blue and your face could be green and I would probably notice that too.
So I think look is good as it is. This way we don't lose information that is crying out loud. Just lifting your hood up does not make you invisible. It even draws more attention if you are pulling it up when there is no storm.
I think people understand, we just flat out disagree.
i used to be really really careful about not looking at people unless my pc had a reason to check them out. Lately, not so much. I mean I could adjust my behavior to preserve your rp experience taking into account that you (you being the general you, not to op) have a thing about being looked at and not look. But I find that I'm doing so at the expense of my own rp experience. You miss a lot not looking at people. I'm not memorizing your ldescs. I'm just taking in the main stuff.
So, I can adjust my behavior and not know if I'm standing next to a six eyed four eared mutant with a cleaver, or you (general you again) can get past it and stop imagining that I've climbed up on your feet to stare into your eyes.
Ever since I failed to notice someone was walking around naked in a public place simply because I didn't look at them I've become a looking fool. There are things that you would -certainly- notice about others around you that you can only find out with the look command so that you can respond appropriately.
"look", used responsibly, is your friend.
People have had a habit of reacting negatively to being looked at. When you find yourself starting to do this remember something...the echo does -not- say: "So and so STARES at you." People look at each other in RL all the time, get over it.
Maybe what the person is wearing "around body" if anything, could be added to assess too.
They are older, fatter, and taller than you.
They are armed.
A red super-clan superman cape is worn about their body.
Maybe worthless clutter, maybe it could help a person out. I'm just throwing down. Ideas.
If not, let's add a 'naked' descriptor to assess!
There's really nothing wrong with looking at people or npcs.
Does look imply staring? No, it means that someone is looking in your direction and taking in some of the details. For a real life understanding of "looking" at someone - while walking down the street you are approaching someone and well you see them. You take in their general appearance, what they are wearing, and what they are doing.
Does that mean you are staring at them? No. It just means you've noticed them on the street. When you pass one another you may continue to look, smile, and say, "hello" or you might avert your gaze and move on quietly - the choice is yours. But, you have already looked and taken in the broad strokes of what the person looks like.
Hoods don't grant anonymity - although I would love to see code that begins to scramble someone's description based on "concealing" objects (hood, masks, etc) that they are wearing.
If you really don't want people to be noticing your character at all then hide. :)
Winged one, you have to learn to have some amount of trust in your fellow players. The staff does. That is all I will say.
Trust is earned, and you've earned shit.
I find the 'look' command simply jarring. I can easily look at someone, even stare, without them noticing it in real life. Well... why the fuck can I -not- do that on Zalanthas. It should be added to one of the commands that 'watch' picks up, not something that's obvious instantaneously.
Semper Pax,
Dirr
Quote from: "Anonymous"Trust is earned, and you've earned shit.
While I don't have the elegant tongue of my peers, I do agree that the "look" command is most often used as an OOC tool for we (the player) to view the other characters in the game so we can help make decisions on how to interpret what we might hear, smell, feel, or see.
We may not have our character react to your presence at all, deciding that you aren't visible to them, or not interesting enough to remember out of a small crowd. Proximity in the game is a touchy subject, and while my character might not be able to glean personal details of your hooded character across the street, I might catch an angle if we were passing on the road side-by-side, or moved through a doorway at the same time.
Trying to code each of those particular situations simply to cater to the needs of a few distrusting players seems unnecessary. The sneak and hide command are available for those people who would be truly adept at keeping out of sight, but I think most folks should just calm down when people "look" at their character and go about life as usual.
I enjoy look echoes because it tells me who is paying attention to my character, and I've not had near the amount of trouble others seem to have had when "every single person" looks at them.
-LoD
After reading this, I feel more comfortable using look in the means that we have it, now. Its impossible to roleplay (err, do it right, rather) without absorbing your environment, in whatever forms it takes. I would still love look to be altered, but as long as its understood as an OOC tool, I won't mind using it so often at all.
Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"It not a big deal when only one or two PCs do it. But it gets annoying when every single PC your character happens upon does it.
You've got to share your secret! Hardly anyone ever looks at my PC and she has on a brand new outfit to show off, too. :(
Are you seriously complaining about people looking at you? What the hell do you think people do? Stare at the ground when they walk along?
Whether my character is looked at depends on the familiarity of other characters with mine; going into that same old tavern and seeing the same old faces, there's little to no look spam.
If there are new characters around, I expect to get look spammed. No biggie. Let them look, because indeed they may need to glean important info about my character.
Then there are other characters who use look a lot, even though they are quite familiar with my character. In those situations, I will sometimes RP that as, "What are you looking at?" in a friendly or curious way. "Do I have something on my nose?" Look can be an RP tool too, is what I'm saying--it's not always just OOC. Between familiar characters, it can actually be quite an intimate thing. (No, I didn't mean sexual, I meant intimate.)
Also, my character may have changed clothes. And I'm not always greatly adept at indicating this. (Point to work on.) So it's cool for other characters to look so they can find out if my character is currently in armor, or is dressed for a tea party.
Or if I'm hooded where I shouldn't be--I expect to get looked at. Those who stick out will draw more attention to themselves, rightly so.
I myself try not to always look at a new/unfamiliar character right away. And when I do look, I try to incorporate it into RP somehow. ("look newb (as ^me gaze passes over the room)") and when my character actually has a reason to look. Probably I shouldn't always be so hesitant about looking and should just go ahead and do it, because look gives a ton of important info, potentially.
You have to look at a character to find out if they are worth looking at. Isn't it ironic?
I ignore a single look per person, per day. That is just part of a normal day. Tagging on an emote to indicate that is just a glance is unnecessary, I assume that a single look is merely the normal glance that you give everyone in a crowd as you move through. Looking is normal, most emotes would be invisible if people really avoided looking at eachother. How can they see that I am smiling and nodding like a bobble head if they never look at me? :D
If a person looks at me repeatedly in a single scene, then I assume that they are watching me or staring. Perhaps I have spinach in my teeth, or they are trying to get my attention.
When I'm walking down a city street, I'll usually look at most people, it's a common habbit people have. No difference in Armageddon except it's a little more obvious most of the time.
Tuff.
Quote from: "Angela Christine"I ignore a single look per person, per day. That is just part of a normal day. Tagging on an emote to indicate that is just a glance is unnecessary, I assume that a single look is merely the normal glance that you give everyone in a crowd as you move through.
I try to exercise a difference between an OOC look and an IC glance. If someone tags on an emote, it's telling me that the character is actually taking notice of me. If I just see the look command, then I'll more readily lump them into the "OOC glance" category. I know that I'll actually use an emote with look if my character could be seen physically looking at them.
The tall, dusty half-elf has arrived from above.
>look elf with a passing glance
As compared to:
>north
The tall, red-bearded templar is standing here.
The human soldier is standing here.
The human soldier is standing here.
The hunnched, one-eyed templar is standing here.
The human soldier is standing here.
The human soldier is standing here.
The corpse of the unfortunate, poor soul is here.
>look templar
>look 2.templar
My character isn't standing there gawking at the two templars, I'm just trying to assess the situation dependant upon the scene before me. Are the templars armed, hurt, holding an eyeball, black robes, red robes, blue robes, glowing, humming, sparkling?
I'm not saying that's the way everyone should approach it, but that's how I generally approach the difference between OOC and IC looks.
-LoD
I have no problem with the look echo. It disturbs me not at all. If someone looks at me and my character should notice, then they do, and if not, then they don't.
I don't believe there's anything such as an OOC look.
Hmm. While look as it is currently is fine IMO, I would still like to see an option to players to glance people over, and see just the equipment. It won't be a coded decision by the person being looked at, but rather a decision on the part of the looker to only see what his/her character would notice, the visible garments, without looking in detail at the underlying physical traits.
This would be different from peek, as it seems some people implied would be the same, since it wouldn't show the inventory of the person. Peek is used for a more specific visual reason.
As it is an option, players could still use look as much as they like, but in situations where the player might think his/her character would only glance a person over, the brief look-over might be better there.
I guess a similar RP tool such as assess (assess verbose), in terms of game-related, it would allow players to selectively choose what they are focusing upon, without having to filter through things their character would or would not notice.
Personally, even just glancing over a person's ldesc, I can retain alot of what I glance over, to be able to pick that person out in the future with look, without intentionally marking that person as someone I have met. I would like the option to choose how much information I as the player recieve.
[edited to add] This is coming from the perspective from the looker...so I guess abit off-topic. In any case, there's no need to be negative about a player's views. There's some unneccesary flaming of this OP's view that should stick to OOC if anything.
I honestly think people should chill about this sort of thing. These discussions have cropped up a few times, but I'll go ahead and say my piece on this one, too.
NPCs are static. They do not move, nor interact in any meaningful way, unless imm animated. I will not look up at the barkeep every time I walk into the bar because I already know his/her deal.
Personally, I want to picture the scene, focusing on the important players (that's our characters, btw). If a red-haired woman PC walks through the crowds, then it is a part of the scene. Yes, she's milling through a bunch of faceless, nameless vNPCs, but I don't care about them. They're the background. Thing of it as cinematic. The camera shifts to her, pans after her a bit. She tosses her hair over her shoulder and then vanishes. Does my PC sitting at the bar REALLY take note of her? Probably not. But I, as a view, see her. If she becomes a major player in my PC's story later, I can say "I remember her from earlier!"
The 'look' echo is an OOC construct, imo. If it IS important and prominent, your fellow players will add on an emote to it. Generally, I do something like this:
l woman (as he takes a brief glance over his shoulder, skimming the crowds)
The bolded text is my way of saying "I am looking at a bunch of vNPCs, NPCs, AND you.
If I'm honing in on you for whatever reason, it will be more like this:
l woman (with a scan of the crowds, eyes landing squarely on !woman)
I would try not to worry about it too much. Most everyone knows that vNPCs are there, and most everyone RPs it properly. We just also want to know what you look like so we can picture it properly.
I'm frankly flabberghasted that there is someone who has a complaint about the fucking look command.
I have no other comment on this subject.
Regarding bloodfromstone's post:
While a player might be using look in different 'levels', he would still recieve the same amount of information. And in either case of the examples, there were two kinds of looks, the once-over, looking at the visible, clearly-seen stuff, and the detailed look. If a character wanted to inspect someone's face to recognize the person, he'd use look. If the character was interested in what the person was wearing, he'd use glance, or some similar feature, without having to pick through the mdesc.
In instances with cloaked figures, looking at someone would be closely inspecting the figure, while glancing would be noting the visible garments and accessories.
While fighting, glancing to see if the opponent is wielding a Steel Weapon of Doom would use the brief look, without having the spam of the mdesc to clutter the already hectic screen up.
These are just instances I would use the seperate features in, if ever possible. There would still be the option for people to LOOK at everyone, and pick out themselves whether they notice someone's hair color or not.
Well, I certainly have no objective to a command that seperates out what information you can obtain, so long as we still have the standard 'look'. More options = more better, as far as I'm concerned. But even if my char is glancing over PC as a random face in the crowd, -I- want to know what they look like and how to visualize them. So even if there was a 'glance' command of some sort, I would still flat out look at every PC I came across. :)
Quote from: "bloodfromstone"So even if there was a 'glance' command of some sort, I would still flat out look at every PC I came across. :)
Including the hooded ones that happen to be passing you on the street? If so, how do you justify doing so, given that many of the features are hidden to all but
he who goes out of his way to get in front and close to that person?
Also, people have stressed that they should be able to notice prominent features such as someone wearing a particular cloak or waving a gruesome head around. This seems reasonable, but at the same time someone who is walking about without hood up receives a lot fewer looks than someone who has the hood up, even though they are both candidates for waving a gruesome head around.
I'd like to see characters be able to indicate prominent features so they stand out the way heavy objects stand out in inventories. Something like 'show es on' leading to people just looking at the room seeing:
>l
This is a generic room. It has no distinguishing features whatever.
The cowled figure stands here. Don't you hate her hood?
-- She is carrying an amphora.
-- She is holding a gruesome dwarf head!
>
That way they can be noticed instantly, as one would expect to be the case.
Another point: the argument to trust others' roleplay doesn't carry much weight when so often new ideas are smacked down by the argument that they're too open to abuse.
A small bone to pick, LoD...
Quote from: "LoD"I enjoy look echoes because it tells me who is paying attention to my character
You earlier said:
Quote from: "LoD"We may not have our character react to your presence at all, deciding that you aren't visible to them, or not interesting enough to remember out of a small crowd.
We have a clear problem here. To the person being looked at, look shows that attention is being paid to his character (and I'm not disputing that, I treat look the same way). However, to the person looking, it's an OOC tool to decide whether or not they're going to pay any attention to the character or not.
If I step onto a bus full of people, I can pick out the guy dressed in bright red with one scan across the seats. In an equivalent situation on Arm, I have to look at twenty people individually - and echo to all of them with every look - before I can say who's wearing bright red. If all of them think I'm paying special attention to them, then we have the distinction between (from my perspective) walking up the bus aisle without paying particular attention to anyone and (from their perspective) staring at each of them with enough intensity I'll be able to remember their faces later.
Quote from: "LoD"and I've not had near the amount of trouble others seem to have had when "every single person" looks at them.
Try putting your hood up when walking the city streets with sand blowing heavily. It seems unlikely that this is unusual from a VNPC perspective, and I'd expect the streets to be full of hooded figures hurrying from one place to another. However, if you're not speed-walking, plenty of people will stop to take a look - and many of them are not looking just because you might be carrying something memorable they should react to, because they don't do this as frequently when they can see your sdesc, but to satisfy OOC curiosity as to who it is they've passed. This becomes even more noticeable if someone steps into a bar and takes their hood down - in that short space after coming through the door, most of the bar seems to decide it has a right to know the mdesc and jewellery of the hooded person in their peripheral vision, despite all the information their characters are likely to notice - comparative height, weight, race, most visible item of clothing and whether or not they're armed or naked - being accessible without look.
People just don't look at hooded people realistically. If someone loiters round a tavern with their hood up, sure, take a gander, but the number of hooded VNPCs coming through the door out of the screaming sands and unhooding and cleaning themselves off is likely to be large. And the only reason to look at someone you pass on the street is to take in their most obvious, salient features - which you already have, passing a hooded person.
Ideally, we'd have commands that gave us more control over seeing what people wore around their bodies, or failing that, on their torso, so you could see them with the hood down, and, even better:
look room red
The mangy-bearded half-giant is wearing a red, hooded cloak.
The one-legged, one-armed elf is wearing a bright red shirt.
look room kurac // catches clan-specific items in certain wear locations
The spindly, noseless woman is wearing a dun-colored hooded cloak.
look room clanned
The spindly, noseless woman is wearing a dun-colored hooded cloak.
The sturdy, bearded man is wearing a black cloak with a jade cross.Extend that to hats, armbands, and
maybe magicker gems, and we'd have a great resource for being aware of our surroundings without studying every PC and NPC in our presence intently.
Quote from: "Quirk"A small bone to pick, LoD...
Quote from: "LoD"I enjoy look echoes because it tells me who is paying attention to my character
You earlier said:
Quote from: "LoD"We may not have our character react to your presence at all, deciding that you aren't visible to them, or not interesting enough to remember out of a small crowd.
We have a clear problem here. To the person being looked at, look shows that attention is being paid to his character (and I'm not disputing that, I treat look the same way). However, to the person looking, it's an OOC tool to decide whether or not they're going to pay any attention to the character or not.
I also said:
Quote from: "LoD"I try to exercise a difference between an OOC look and an IC glance. If someone tags on an emote, it's telling me that the character is actually taking notice of me. If I just see the look command, then I'll more readily lump them into the "OOC glance" category. I know that I'll actually use an emote with look if my character could be seen physically looking at them.
Quote from: "Quirk"...and many of them are not looking just because you might be carrying something memorable they should react to, because they don't do this as frequently when they can see your sdesc, but to satisfy OOC curiosity as to who it is they've passed. This becomes even more noticeable if someone steps into a bar and takes their hood down - in that short space after coming through the door, most of the bar seems to decide it has a right to know the mdesc and jewellery of the hooded person in their peripheral vision...
At least, that's what you assume "most of the bar" seems to decide rather than looking as the player and working those perceptions into the actions of their character. I agree with you that it's not a perfect system and that some people find it jarring. I guess that I've just gotten used to it over the many years it's been this way and adapted to the situation. I've played thieves and sneaky types that don't want to be known just fine without people identifying my character. Know why? Because I don't act suspicious by walking around with my hood up or, if so, I don't draw attention to myself when I'm going to do something "sneaky".
I understand other people have an issue with this, and that's fine. I'm certainly not
against a better developed system of viewing character information, but I'm also an optimist and like to give people the benefit of the doubt regardless of the times I've been burned. That's just who I am.
-LoD
Quote from: "Quirk"
look room red
The mangy-bearded half-giant is wearing a red, hooded cloak.
The one-legged, one-armed elf is wearing a bright red shirt.
look room kurac // catches clan-specific items in certain wear locations
The spindly, noseless woman is wearing a dun-colored hooded cloak.
look room clanned
The spindly, noseless woman is wearing a dun-colored hooded cloak.
The sturdy, bearded man is wearing a black cloak with a jade cross.
Extend that to hats, armbands, and maybe magicker gems, and we'd have a great resource for being aware of our surroundings without studying every PC and NPC in our presence intently.
Now that, I could dig.
QuoteIncluding the hooded ones that happen to be passing you on the street? If so, how do you justify doing so, given that many of the features are hidden to all but he who goes out of his way to get in front and close to that person?
You're only reading part of my post, from the sounds of things. As I said, I do this for
MY (not my PC's) benefit and personal visualization of the scene. It is entirely possible that I will look at you, hooded and undistinguished, on the street, read every line of your desc, visualize your character, and have my PC react to absolutely none of it. He glanced over the random figure on the road and kept walking. He wouldn't recognize you later. He wouldn't give you a second thought. But I, as a viewer, see you. I do not think this needs to be justified.
EDIT: to add....
I do not understand what the problem is with being looked at. Personally, I like people to look at my PC, read my desc, look at my shiny and characteristic items and take a moment to soak it all in. I would prefer not to have everyone just sort of imagining everyone else as random congloberations of sapphire eyes, ponytails, slenderness, and eyepatches because all they read is each other's sdesc.
If your character doesn't have anything to hide, then appreciate the fact that people are looking at you and, hopefully, visualizing your character.
If your character DOES have something to hide, then, well, being looked at and noticed is part of going into places where people are. Hide, sneak, stay out of public eye, or whatever, if it's for IC reasons. If it's for OOC reasons, I say forget it, chill a bit, gag the lines on your mud client if they really drive you batshit, but don't encourage people not to imagine their surroundings. That, in my opinion, is what limiting and avoiding the look command would accomplish.
I think the problem isn't with people looking at you, the problem is with the difference between people's behaviors when you have your hood up or not. I can walk down the street in-game with my hood down and not have one person look at me, but as soon as the hood goes up every single player I run into takes a look. It's hard to argue that players aren't making an OOC decision when the reaction is so noticably different.
Also, I like the circular logic going on in this thread and others. Here people have every right to look at you if you do nothing out of the ordinary and say if you want to not be noticed then sneak, and then in other threads people complain when pcs either sneak alot (cause they are twinking) or say they have every right to pay lots of attention to you if you fail to sneak well. So basicly sneaky types get double fucked. If we walk normally, people will look at us. If we sneak, people will look at us.
The arguement that we should trust the players to just be trying to see if someone is doing something wierd kind of falls flat too. If someone is parading down the street waving a severed head or whatever, then why can't you trust them to emote it rather than look at every single person that passes by? Of course people don't look at everyone that walks by, just those with a hood up.
PS: If you don't think this applies to you then maybe it doesn't, but it does to most people.
If you weren't meant to have an idea of what someone looked like under a hood, then the entire mdesc would be cloaked.
QuoteIt not a big deal when only one or two PCs do it. But it gets annoying when every single PC your character happens upon does it.
What do you want us, the GDB, to do about it?
Quote from: "jcarter"
If you weren't meant to have an idea of what someone looked like under a hood, then the entire mdesc would be cloaked.
I agree, but you should only have an idea if you take a close look. The way I see it, there is no way to stop people from looking at everyone that walks by, but if I am doing something sneaky and see someone paying close attention to me (like I see the look echo) I think I am justified in killing that person to cover up witnesses, or if I'm playing a jerk getting pissed off and in your face for eyeballing me. After all, life's harsh and you should be careful whose business you're sticking your nose in.
Quote from: "Alberic"Quote from: "jcarter"
If you weren't meant to have an idea of what someone looked like under a hood, then the entire mdesc would be cloaked.
I agree, but you should only have an idea if you take a close look. The way I see it, there is no way to stop people from looking at everyone that walks by, but if I am doing something sneaky and see someone paying close attention to me (like I see the look echo) I think I am justified in killing that person to cover up witnesses, or if I'm playing a jerk getting pissed off and in your face for eyeballing me. After all, life's harsh and you should be careful whose business you're sticking your nose in.
This is the root of the problem. The two sides have completely different expectations and views on what look should be used for, and how often. The problem with this is that there's two commands for everyone that can be used to gather information on them: look and assess. Between the two of them, there's a huge gap of information.
If I'm walking through the mall, I'll oftentimes look at almost everyone. Just sweeping over things, making getting the attention of a shirt's color, a funny hat, whatever. Maybe one out of every fifty or so people will catch me looking at them, because I'm not lingering for long.
Looking around yourself and at other people is natural. Everyone does it, it's hardwired into our brains to notice moving and living things. You're justified to do whatever you want as long as it's within your character's personality. If your character walks along the rode, eyes down at all times, then don't look at anyone. Most of mine tend to be normal and do glance over people, hence why most of my look emotes will give an indication of that.
In the end, looking at something is just nerves recognizing reflected light from surfaces. That's all. It doesn't mean someone's paying you special attention, people are looking for you, obsessed with you, or whatever.
Quote from: "Angela Christine"Tagging on an emote to indicate that is just a glance is unnecessary, I assume that a single look is merely the normal glance that you give everyone in a crowd as you move through.
I'm a command emote whore. :( For some odd, obsessive reason I feel compelled to tag some form of emote onto nearly every command at nearly any given opportunity. Personally, I feel it adds spice, although the 6,745th -
l angela (omfg he's glancin' with a nod) - can get a bit tiresome.
*shrug* I suck, what can I say? :)
I practically ignore the look echo. Occasionally I'll use it as an excuse to look back and tag a command emote, especially if nobody is doing a damned thing in the tavern. Unless you're a slave told to stare at the ground, your eyes wander - over things, over people, over landscapes.
I disagree that hoods should hide that much. If I see you head on or from the side and you have your hood on, I'd probably be able to pick you out of a line up. Unless you have the magick cloak of invisibility.
Quote from: "Barzalene"I disagree that hoods should hide that much. If I see you head on or from the side and you have your hood on, I'd probably be able to pick you out of a line up. Unless you have the magick cloak of invisibility.
Wouldn't that depend very much on circumstances? I mean, heck, people often have a hard job picking a criminal who attacked them out of a line-up a little while later, never mind someone who passed them on the street two days ago. Me, I think you'd need to be paying fairly serious attention if you wanted to try a trick like that - but I freely admit that I'm not observant enough to remember strangers' faces all that well, never mind hooded ones, and maybe other people are better.
It absolutely would. And I think I should probably confess to overstating.
I might be able to pick them out of a line up within the hour, or if they were very good looking or remarkably ugly within a day.
My real point is that a cloak doen't make you just a cowled figure like in the cartoons, where death wears a hood.
I completely overstated.
I mean, no! You're wrong! I am right! Neh neh neh neh boo boo! I want to fight your brother!
Again, there is a difference between the normal person glancing at someone and then moving on and sizing someone up totally and noticing every little trait about that person.
You can't have it both ways. If moving anonymously down a crowded street can only be accomplished by codedly using sneak and hide then fine. But if the code also says that when you look at someone it's obvious and it gives you every single detail about what that person is wearing and looks like then it's only fair that we react accordingly. The only way I can imagine everyone on a street noticing me looking at someone is if I am blatantly staring and examining them in detail. If you don't want people to think this is what you are doing to them, then stop reflexively using the look command.
Edited to add: I think assess -v gives you a pretty fair idea of what you should get from a glance. It tells you how big they are, how wounded, how tired, and if they are carrying weapons. Anything more would take more than a glance. After all, all you people who claim they examine every person they see in real life, what was the eye color of the third person you saw in passing yesterday? Not someone you know or deal with on a regular basis, just some guy on the street when you were driving or something.
The problem with that sentiment, Alberic, is that you have to look at them to see if there's something you should notice. Look is the only thing we have to give us this information. The problem is when people assume that everyone is going to notice everything. Look can be an in depth examination or a casual glance. Don't get bent out of shape when someone looks at you.
Why shouldn't I? Think about if in real life whenever you walked down the street everyone started blatantly starring at you and giving you a head to toe visual examination. I'd get pissed pretty fast or paranoid. Or when you walked into a bar and everyone turned from their conversation to stare at you for a few moments, eyeing you in every detail.
Seriously, you want PCs to accept that since cloaks aren't coded to cover your mdesc everything is visible, fine, I disagree but accept that is how it works. However, you can't expect me to then ignore the way look is coded to give an echo to everyone in the room. If the Imms didn't want look to be blatant then it wouldn't echo. Same logic as you are giving for cloaks.
Quote from: "Alberic"However, you can't expect me to then ignore the way look is coded to give an echo to everyone in the room. If the Imms didn't want look to be blatant then it wouldn't echo.
By your own argument ...
If everyone in the room notices when someone else looks at another, and it is not feasible at all for everyone in the room to notice this information, then it should be understood that it is up to the roleplayer's discretion how to interpret it.
If you're actively watching someone across the room, chances are you would not have noticed. If you're the target, and there's a line of sight, you probably notice. If you're standing next to the target, you might mistake the look to be at you. Use your imagination. After reading a lot of the posts on this thread, I don't think you have to take it so seriously when someone looks at you, but if it's in your character to be a cock, so be it, that's the game.
It's already been said, and I agree, you're just going to have to trust your fellow players not to use every minute detail of your character's description or attire. Again, it's up to player's discretion what someone is going to choose to notice.
QuoteWhy shouldn't I? Think about if in real life whenever you walked down the street everyone started blatantly starring at you and giving you a head to toe visual examination. I'd get pissed pretty fast or paranoid. Or when you walked into a bar and everyone turned from their conversation to stare at you for a few moments, eyeing you in every detail.
Using the look command doesn't mean you're staring.
Quote from: "jcarter"
Using the look command doesn't mean you're staring.
Then how do you explain everyone noticing you doing it?
Again, we come down to RP trust. In your opinion it's my duty to trust you not to abuse the information you get from look and I should pretend I don't notice you looking at me. You also claim that because the code doesn't allow hoods or facewraps to conceal the mdesc you can see everything. All I'm saying is that since the code doesn't conceal your looking at me, I have every right to roleplay you blatantly staring as that is how the code describes it.
Quote from: "Alberic"Quote from: "jcarter"
Using the look command doesn't mean you're staring.
Then how do you explain everyone noticing you doing it?
Again, we come down to RP trust. In your opinion it's my duty to trust you not to abuse the information you get from look and I should pretend I don't notice you looking at me. You also claim that because the code doesn't allow hoods or facewraps to conceal the mdesc you can see everything. All I'm saying is that since the code doesn't conceal your looking at me, I have every right to roleplay you blatantly staring as that is how the code describes it.
The code does -not- describe it as "staring" at you.
Quote from: "jhunter"
The code does -not- describe it as "staring" at you.
How do you explain everyone in the room noticing someone looking at someone else unless they are obviously starring?
Quote from: "Alberic"Quote from: "jhunter"
The code does -not- describe it as "staring" at you.
How do you explain everyone in the room noticing someone looking at someone else unless they are obviously starring?
Hahaha. This is getting ridiculous. I don't even understand what you're all arguing about anymore.
To look at someone is to turn your eyes towards them. That is all. Nowhere does it say that you're staring when you look at someone. You're taking the fact that you get the equipment list and main description to mean that it is staring. You're reading into things too much.
Editted to add: Others notice? So? They may be watching the person being looked at. They should use the same discretion as the person being looked at when it comes to this...and don't assume that the looker is staring and that's why they noticed and looked too, or maybe not even have their character notice at all?
Quote from: "Alberic"
How do you explain everyone in the room noticing someone looking at someone else unless they are obviously staring?
That dude with his head down on the table didn't notice, I promise. People have the -choice- of whether they notice it. Seriously, if you think it needs to be changed, Ask The Staff or try Code Discussion.
This is -not- staring. I think most people would indicate if they were staring.
The code for staring or, rather, watching someone and noticing all their actions is watch person.
Look can be anything from a glance, to a smiling hey how are you widdle of the eyebrows, to a wannabe scary glare. It's anything. Look just allows you to see what the other person looks like.
It's really not a big deal. Why does it echo? 'cause it does. That's the best answer I can think up.
Quote from: "Cegar"
Hahaha. This is getting ridiculous. I don't even understand what you're all arguing about anymore.
The arguement is that there is nothing wrong with people looking at everyone that enters a room as it is a reasonable IC response to check if they have anything wierd like a chicken on their head or are carring a necklace of severed heads. Players should just trust each other not to use info like the person's description against them if they are wearing a greatcloak and facewrap.
My arguement is that if that is true then since looking at someone echoes to the whole room there should be no problem if an assassin decides you are paying too much attention and kills you for examining him. The looking is so obvious to everyone that it's not unreasonable, in my opinion, to treat the person looking as being too nosy for their own good.
Editted to add: In response to the people saying look isn't starring, the freaking code says everyone notices you looking. I don't know how much more cut and dry it could be. Either it is obvious to everyone or it would only be noticed by the watch command like assess currently is. If it wasn't obvious it wouldn't echo. Just like how someone wearing a cloak isn't hidden unless they hide.
Quote from: "Alberic"Quote from: "Cegar"
Hahaha. This is getting ridiculous. I don't even understand what you're all arguing about anymore.
The arguement is that there is nothing wrong with people looking at everyone that enters a room as it is a reasonable IC response to check if they have anything wierd like a chicken on their head or are carring a necklace of severed heads. Players should just trust each other not to use info like the person's description against them if they are wearing a greatcloak and facewrap.
My arguement is that if that is true then since looking at someone echoes to the whole room there should be no problem if an assassin decides you are paying too much attention and kills you for examining him. The looking is so obvious to everyone that it's not unreasonable, in my opinion, to treat the person looking as being too nosy for their own good.
Editted to add: In response to the people saying look isn't starring, the freaking code says everyone notices you looking. I don't know how much more cut and dry it could be. Either it is obvious to everyone or it would only be noticed by the watch command like assess currently is. If it wasn't obvisious it wouldn't echo. Just like how someone wearing a cloak isn't hidden unless they hide.
Well, in that case, it is my opinion that you are wrong.
Uh... the code echos a lot of subtle things that most people wouldn't notice.
You must be talking about when this happens this:
Quote from: "Armegeddon"
A big-nosed human man looks at you.
No, wait, he is staring at you.
A big-nosed human man turns his head back to a silly looking table.
He knows what you're doing ...
At a silly looking table, a big-nosed man speaks.
...
You should kill him.
More like when this happens:
west
A dingy bar [E]
A bar blah blah blah.
A big-nosed human is here.
A small-nosed human is here.
A no-nosed elf is here.
A fat-nosed dwarf is here.
A hook-nosed mul is here.
A tentacle-nosed cthulu is here.
A big-nosed human looks at you.
A small-nosed human looks at you.
A no-nosed elf looks at you.
A fat-nosed dwarf looks at you.
A hook-nosed mul looks at you.
A tentacle-nosed cthulu looks at you and you are driven mad.
So I am supposed to accept that all these people saw everything about me but I can't notice them noticing me?
You just walked through the door into a bar. Is it abnormal to see who's walking into a bar? Even Cthulu agrees.
Quote from: "Cthulu"*nods*
Really, though, this is getting silly.
I'd note that you did see who walked through the door when you got the message:
The random drunk man has arrived from the east.
Wanting more info than that requires you to actively turn from what you are doing and LOOK at him.
Well, room descriptions give alot of information about the room just as you walk in, does that mean that you automagickally know eveyrone about the room? No. People don't convey all the knowledge to their characters. Most the time, with room descriptions, long descriptions, characters clothing and what not, people just look for things that would catch their characters attention, and don't pay much attention to anything else.
I'm sorry, just because you walked into the door and I saw that thruogh the walk code ... Doesn't mean I need to STARE at you to notice you are stalking through with a giant mace of doom.
Look doesn't mean stare, it's a way to convey information that a character might need to know. If my character is getting up in your characters face to see every detail and turn out your pockets, you'll sure a hell know it.
Creep
There are plenty of ways to stare over someone and scrutinise every little detail of them, if that's truly your intent. (If it is, emote it.)
Declaring everyone who looks at you is getting up in your face and staring is a form of poweremoting, IMO. Just relax and let it go.
Quote from: "creeper386"Well, room descriptions give alot of information about the room just as you walk in, does that mean that you automagickally know eveyrone about the room? No. People don't convey all the knowledge to their characters. Most the time, with room descriptions, long descriptions, characters clothing and what not, people just look for things that would catch their characters attention, and don't pay much attention to anything else.
I'm sorry, just because you walked into the door and I saw that thruogh the walk code ... Doesn't mean I need to STARE at you to notice you are stalking through with a giant mace of doom.
Look doesn't mean stare, it's a way to convey information that a character might need to know. If my character is getting up in your characters face to see every detail and turn out your pockets, you'll sure a hell know it.
Creep
That is exactly my point. I have to trust you not to use every part of what you get from look because you refuse to trust that I would emote carrying around anything out of the ordinary. You want everyone to trust you with using the information responsibly but you don't even entertain the notion of trusting people to give you the information without you having to take it along with everything else. If you can't trust me to emote anything out of the ordinary why must I trust your decision making on what you can see?
Honestly, when was the last time someone was actually carrying around a mace of doom or a shirt made of faces or something totally insane that you would instantly notice it? 1 out of 100 looks? 1 out of 1000? It must come up pretty often if that is the only reason why you look at everyone. In fact, the only thing I can think of that would be really important to notice on someone that is at all common are templar robes....and those show up on the sdesc.
I'm basing my response on what the game freaking tells me. Poweremoting is declaring that what the game reveals to everyone isn't actually revealed and people aren't allowed to respond to it. If you don't want people reacting negatively to your scrutiny, don't do it. It's not my job to ignore the code. If I backstab you and miss should you pretend that I didn't do it because I say I did it in a way to make it undetectable? If I fail at peeking into your inventory and you notice should you not be allowed to react cause I say I did it over your shoulder while you were drinking and therefore couldn't see.
Where exactly do you draw the line at believing the game code over players declarations? Again, if they didn't want looking to be obvious to anyone why isn't it hidden like assess?
Quote from: "Alberic"
My arguement is that if that is true then since looking at someone echoes to the whole room there should be no problem if an assassin decides you are paying too much attention and kills you for examining him.
If your character concept is a paranoid psychopath who stabs everyone who might be able to identify him . . . uh, go ahead. Good luck with that.
Quote from: "Alberic"You want everyone to trust you with using the information responsibly but you don't even entertain the notion of trusting people to give you the information without you having to take it along with everything else. If you can't trust me to emote anything out of the ordinary why must I trust your decision making on what you can see?
This is quite simply answered. YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHAT MY CHARACTER MIGHT FIND INTERESTING!
Now, if you want to emote out everything you have from your long description and your item list ... Well then I wouldn't bother looking, but I bet you don't.
Now, I would use another command if it didn't echo, but no other command even gives an idea really what they character looks like, short descriptions don't do a very good job, nor does anything else give me what they are wearing. I want to know what the game world looks like, and I want to know if my character would notice anything.
Now what next, do you propose we not be able to see long descriptions of rooms because a player might see something that they wouldn't have?
Perhaps we should get rid of echos altogether so we as players rely on other characters to emote out their failed thefts and what they are doing while sneaking and hiding and everything else that's going on? Stuff happens ALL the time that people see, but don't react with their characters. The look command is one of those things.
Now, I don't see how seeing what someone is wearing a hard stare, nor do I even beleive all the time I look at a character it's even my character conciously noticing them, they are just scanning the room for anything of interest, I don't know if there is anything my character might be interested in, unless I look. There isn't any way to get around that. So, I'm thinking that if you RP that everyone looking at you is staring hard and getting into your face, you are going to have some VERY difficult times. As people look alot. it's the only way to get information of whats going on around them.
Creep
Quote from: "jcarter"Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"When you look at my character, you get to see every little detail about her appearance. When her hood is up, this implies considerable effort.
Maybe there should be a silent version of the look command that just provides sdesc and the visible inventory list, rather than ldesc and the visible inventory list. That would seem more suitable for passing someone hooded in the street.
For christ's sake, it's only look. I don't understand why this is such a big deal.
Exactly
I always have and always will look at whoever I feel, whenever I feel like it. Usually when I see someone new I will give them a quick look and continue with whatever was going on.
I prefer to know when someone is surrounded by magickal effects that don't display when just looking at the room instead of the target. Mayby they are carrying someones head in their hands, or a big ass glowing polearm of death +2. It has never gotten on my nerves when someone else looks at me either, I never understood this debate no matter how many times it has creeped up on the boards.
Quote from: "EonBlueApocalypse"I personally try not to use look unless I am giving that particular PC attention. If I do briefly glance, I make use of command emotes to signify that it's a passing glance. The reason I do this is because, yes, the look command can become jarring, and it also signifies some level of interest that may or may not be there.
This makes me want to put my chips in on an alteration to the look command. Not a glance command like everyone is suggesting, but a revision to look to be more realistic, going off of a watch check (which amounts to your characters perception of his/her surroundings), and only displaying a message to characters who pass their watch check. Highly affected by whether you are actively watching target or initiate.
Maybe look does need some big changes, if someone feels they should try not to use look. I hate to say it, but a LOT of things you should notice pretty easily. Such as a naked person. Now they added someone who is armed to assess, but that just doesn't imo begin to cover the things that would be really hard to miss about someone without giving them a look exactly.
If you don't want to be noticed, use sneak.
The unrealistic thing here is that it's impossible to get information about someone without them being instantly aware of it.
Can you imagine what real life would be like if every chick you scoped out in a bar was immediately and 100% aware that you were checking out her ass?
Madness. Madness.
Fuck it, I'm going to pull out and point to my signature. This is getting ridiculous.
There are tons of things that you would immediately notice without going to the persons faces or really staring at them
Is that person a noble? Wearing silk or looks like they're important? Or just another dirty-ass commoner? A mercenary still wearing armor? Giant coded tattoo on their face?
All of those would be -easily- noticed on a first glance and would be completely overlooked without the look command.
Short desriptions are so limited in showing information that there's only the most basic things in there - or someone puts eye color in there even if that's usually the last thing I notice about a person - I don't look. Sometimes there aren'T even obvious things like skin color in there.
Quote from: "UnderSeven"
Maybe look does need some big changes, if someone feels they should try not to use look.
I've already posted that after reading the mass opinion that looking at someone doesn't mean that I am giving them unnecessary amounts of attention. I still don't think I am going to look at everything I don't know, because it's old RP habit, but now I'm not going to assume people are going to get an attitude (or get up and stab me?) because I looked at them.
This is seriously getting to be silly. It's a simple echo. Almost everything echos. Getting upset about the look echo is no different from emoting walking across the room, and then acting like everyone is watching you walk across the room.
Quote from: "Alberic"I'd note that you did see who walked through the door when you got the message:
The random drunk man has arrived from the east.
Wanting more info than that requires you to actively turn from what you are doing and LOOK at him.
We seem to be forgetting the restrictions of code; we need to code-wise look at you in
case there is something that sticks out. I have personally seen an elf with long dangling
arms and talons, but it wasn't in his sdesc. That sticks out and I need to cod-wise look at
it to see it. Also there are several –noticeable- magickal effects that appear when people
look at you and, without naming any, if you were walking through the streets with one
you would definitely stick out even though it's not in your sdesc or tagged underneath.
Also they could have reasons perhaps; they are stalking the streets after someone for
reasons good or bad. They may just look and go, not saying that is the case every
time.
While we all need to accept this, I do prefer if it's a crowded tavern and eight
people have looked at me and not done anything; just save us the spam of your added
look.
emote STARES at ~human, really, really, hard. His eyes bore into ~human, moving over %human body like a swarm of intruding kankflies.
I'm tempted to dress my 50 day warrior in newbie clothes and walk around doing this. Sure, it might get me into a bunch of trouble for being a twinky fuckwad, but it would certainly be entertaining. At least...for me. :twisted:
Quote from: "jhunter"emote STARES at ~human, really, really, hard. His eyes bore into ~human, moving over %human body like a swarm of intruding kankflies.
I'm tempted to dress my 50 day warrior in newbie clothes and walk around doing this. Sure, it might get me into a bunch of trouble for being a twinky fuckwad, but it would certainly be entertaining. At least...for me. :twisted:
Frankly I love that idea, having myself played a character that wore common, not so protective gear and had a few, to their own quick end, try and jump him.
It's not twinking to dress like everybody else. It's also not twinking to play an unassuming badass. And it's definitely not twinking when some other twink mistakes you for a newbie, seeks a quick kill and finds themselves dead.
Quote from: "rishenko"It's not twinking to dress like everybody else. It's also not twinking to play an unassuming badass. And it's definitely not twinking when some other twink mistakes you for a newbie, seeks a quick kill and finds themselves dead.
It's not twinking to play an unassuming badass. It's not twinking to wear unassuming clothing.
It's
certainly twinking to wear clothing that's specifically newbie-only for the purpose of baiting folks into attacking you.
It's also twinky to attack people wearing newbie clothing just because they're wearing newbie clothing.
It sure is.
Get back to me when two wrongs make a right.
If you save your newbie clothing because it is the 'casual wear' for your character and change into it regularly, how is that twinking?
Hey man. Do it if you think you can rationalize it. Have a blast.
Rationalize? That's a loaded statement. Thanks for the insult, CK.
It all comes to motivation. Don't assume things, and don't make accusations. Only the person doing the action and the staff know for sure. Leave it to them, okay?
Train embarking from Munich to Moscow now arriving in Albuquerque.
It wouldn't be twinking if you kept wearing it continuously the whole time. You wore it on day 1, you were still wearing it on day 10, still wearing it on day 35, and, yes, still wearing your raggedy old newbie clothing on day 50. Becoming badass while wearing nothing but newbie clothing is so cool that you get to keep wearing it for as long as you want.
Putting your newbie clothing in a trunk on day 1, wearing other stuff for 49 days, and then changing back into your newbie clothing on day 50: probably twinkish.
Keeping several outfits, including newbie clothing, and switching between them is cool. Nothing is more pathetic than a rich guy who only owns one shirt and wears it all the time. :roll: A desperately poor person might wear everything they own all the time, particularly if they don't have a family home or gang hideout to keep spares. But a normal "middle class" who has been established for a while could totally have several outfits. Even if you don't want to waste money washing your clothes, having several shirts so that each one can spend some time airing out will help keep you less stinky (some of the outdoor room descriptions in Allanak indicate that laundry is hung outside). You might be able to dodge accusations of twinkery by wearing your newbie outfit often, say at least 50% of the time, throughout your career -- it would be dicey.
A better way is to wear clothing that is similar to the newbie clothing, but not exactly the same. A basic shirt, pants and boots set, or an aba leggings and sandals outfit. This way you are dressing like a normal resident of that city, but not deceptively using newbie clothes. The actual newbie clothes are unnecessary to the scam anyway, people are likely to judge anyone not in leathers to be a non-combat character.
For Old Skool Cool points, wear an obsolete newbie outfit. Remember when everyone wore black shoes?!? Ha, those were the days. Or the even older days when everyone wore the shirt and black pants (no shoes!) that you still get to wear in the HoK.