Would it be possible to add a piece of code to items that would allow rinthers to determine if carrying or wearing something will get you killed in the rinth? IE:
A set of tattered rags looks like a beggar wouldn't wear it
A set of tattered rags can be worn on the torso.
A set of tattered rags looks like it will fit you.
A set of tattered rags looks like what a 'rinther would wear.
OR
A blood stained shirt looks like a beggar wouldn't wear it
A blood stained shirt can be worn on the torso.
A blood stained shirt looks like it will fit you.
A blood stained shirt looks like it would get you mugged in the 'rinth.
I don't really know how hard this would be but as the NPCs can already tell what makes them hate you and what doesn't, couldn't you just make that visible somehow to players? I think this would dramatically improve survivability in the 'rinth.
I like that would help noobs and myself out alot...
This is an extremely good idea.
Assuming it's a single flag on items rather than the cumulative value of what you're wearing...
Only if it was applied to people that 'point labyrinth' from the HoK would I support this idea.
Editted to add: And Moe, from my experience it is individual items rather than cumulative, and the mugger NPCs actually TELL you why they're mugging you when they attempt the mugging. It's always something (heavily paraphrased) like: "That's a nice checkered shirt with pockets on the front. Think I'll take it." I've seen them take multiple items, though, so I think the script governing them just picks one at random, highest value, or first on the list in these cases when determining what the mugger says.
Quote from: "spawnloser"Only if it was applied to people that 'point labyrinth' from the HoK would I support this idea.
I agree it should be rinther only. After all, you've lived your whole life in the rinth, wouldn't you get a feel for what will get you attacked by your fellow rinthers?
Quote from: "Marauder Moe"Assuming it's a single flag on items rather than the cumulative value of what you're wearing...
If its not item based but personal then couldn't you add it to assess for 'rinthers?
IE:
assess -v me
Someone is in excellent condition.
Someone does not look tired.
Someone looks like a typical 'rinther.
OR
assess -v me
Someone is in excellent condition.
Someone does not look tired.
Someone looks like she would get mugged in the 'rinth.
I think item flags for 'rinthers to tell if it's too valuable is a great idea, but I don't like the idea of flagging players that way. You'd have to look at them and judge for yourself. Once you get accustomed to the 'rinth, you can usually tell at a glance if someone is dressing too flashy for the alleys.
I like it.
Though I have to admit "add one item and see if you get mugged, add another item and see if you get mugged" makes for an amusing sub-game when times are slow. :P All you really need is a dark hooded cloak and maybe a ratty loincloth. Once you have your dark hooded cloak everything else is just showing off.
think when you look at an item it is usually good enough, plus how do you
know what you will be mugged for seriously. The guys near a gang HQ that
are decked out might ignore you but, those trio of kids need anything they
can trade for some bread so they will still come at you.
Also if you plan on playing in the rinth you should be a bit focused on detail
(on of the beauties of the rinth) and if anything on your clothing makes you
think wow I would want to buy then, then someone else is thinking wow I
would want to steal that.
If you're being attacked by a 'rinthi NPC for a piece of gear, he'll tell you what he's after. My suggestion if that happens, btw, is to flee immediately. Don't stick around to see if you're tougher than he is; you probably aren't. We're not going to give you instant knowledge of what things are attractive to 'rinthi NPCs, but I'll give you a good guideline now: anything worth more than a decent meal (not a lousy meal, a decent one) is probably worth the effort.
If you need expensive gear, I suggest keeping your newbie-gear (or some other sufficiently worthless outfit) to change back into as you wander through the 'rinth.
-- X
Quote from: "Xygax"'ll give you a good guideline now: anything worth more than a decent meal (not a lousy meal, a decent one) is probably worth the effort.
That's good advice, but if it stays in this thread it will never be seen by more than a tiny handful of players, and certainly not enough newbies who will be slaughtered in the 'rinth because they bought that nice pair of boots.
Doesn't the 'rinth info section on the main site specifically warn against that, Cale_Knight?
The problem is that there is no way to tell the value of a piece of clothing just by looking at it. For instance, if a newbie finds a shirt on a dead body with a short desc along the lines of "a filthy/bloody such and such" on a dead NPC and the desc says that it is just a simple linen/cotton whatever that is also filthy/bloody then they may assume it is safe to wear. Then bam they get attacked, lag/can't flee in time, and die. Shazam frustrated PC, and yet the solution is so easy.
Really, wouldn't it make sense that people in the 'rinth would know what they would kill over if they've lived there their whole life? As it stands right now PCs are being forced to engage in an OOC game of figure out the NPCs attack code.
When in doubt, dress down. Also consult the help file on the "value" skill which does just what you want, or try the item out with a few merchants. Your newbie gear will also work, as I just suggested.
-- X
I would support this idea but seemingly it is not going to be implemented.
In that case, rinther girl before you wear something you are not sure of its value, I suggest go to a shop and offer the item. You will have an idea what you can buy with that one if you can sell it. I never had a rinther PC with the value skill, but I used that as reference for all my rinther PCs.
It's a good idea. Period.
Don't take this as antagonistic, but I thought the 'rinth was supposed to be a challenge? Much like a wilderness within the city? And I thought that people who survived the 'rinth did so by trial and error, and came out with valuable game experience. I mean, I guess newbies could try it, but is it such a tragedy when they die, over and over? That's armageddon.
You are wrong some npc's dont say what there after and just kill u, i have experianced this before.
Quote from: "Gricker"You are wrong some npc's dont say what there after and just kill u, i have experianced this before.
Yes this is also true.
But NPCs coded for trapping you and mugging you do say what they are after. Some loner thugs though, they just explain their reasoning after giving the beating.
I think this whole line of thinking is tragic. A rinther should have a coded cruch to know what to wear or where to go(or not go)? By that reasoning all nomads should get a map of their native area including the low-down on local fauna, wildlife etc. I mean, they were born there. They would know, right? People with the background of a cook should have a nice list of crafting recipes included with their approval letter? Where does it stop? Or to phrase it another way: What makes the rinth the exception to the tried and true method that is armageddon ie DISCOVERY!!!!
You want to play a rinther? Make one and be prepared to die. Think it's too tough? Don't play a rinther. I mean, hell, the current incarnation of the rinth is a CAKEWALK compared to what it used to be. These days there is a reason behind the npc's actions (those who say there isn't just don't get it. Keep trying) unlike the past where it WAS just a maze of aggressive mobs.
Blah. This thread has included plenty of good advice on how to survive and make do in the rinth. If you applied said advice you'd do just fine. If you don't want to, your perogative, just don't hold your breath for staff to make the rinth kid-safe.
There could be a friendly NPC doing the same as the thugs - just outside the Labyrinth.
The bright-eyed kiddo says to you, "I'd be careful in the 'rinth with that dagger, mister! I would, I would!"
Should work.
Or even a thug right at the entrance of Hathor's way.
The tall figure in the shabby cloak leers at your silk, jewel-encrusted boots.
So, let's pretend that sort of warning is implemented.
How would you explain that sudden streak of insight to your character?
Why and how does he know that his boots of no value to any other Rinthi?
If PC would decide that he wants your boots anyways, what would you do with all your mystic knowledge?
Will you accuse him in powergaming, because you know better what he needs and what he doesn't?
Also, if you want everyone to be safe from mugging script, why didn't you ask to remove it completely, instead of imagining helpful faeries to guide you through alleys?
Also, why do you want to change a gaming world to fit your boots instead of walking barefoot?
I don't particularly care for the idea of someone who stands outside the Rinth telling people that their crap will get them mugged. At least not for free. It should have some fee or catch attatched to it.
And it's the Rinth. It's not supposed to be safe for anyone, even its inhabitants.
Quote from: "Marc"I think this whole line of thinking is tragic. A rinther should have a coded cruch to know what to wear or where to go(or not go)? By that reasoning all nomads should get a map of their native area including the low-down on local fauna, wildlife etc. I mean, they were born there. They would know, right? People with the background of a cook should have a nice list of crafting recipes included with their approval letter? Where does it stop? Or to phrase it another way: What makes the rinth the exception to the tried and true method that is armageddon ie DISCOVERY!!!!
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/slipslop.html
jcarter: I think Marc's argument is an analogy, not a slippery slope. He's not saying, "if A happens, then B, C, D will happen, D is bad so A should not happen". He's saying "A happening would be equivalent to B happening. B shouldn't happen, and A is equally untenable". His "B" is more extreme, but the parallels are believable.
-- X
I really don't care for the idea.
I think the danger and the challenge are good. If you die a few times learning your way around then you do. I think that's ok.
You know, some of it is common sense. Don't pick clothing that looks like 'southside commoner clothing' over the 'looks like some homeless person sleeping behind a midden heap because I get less people bothering me that way clothing.' Don't wear stuff that makes you look like a badass, because people like testing themselves on badasses...or testing the badasses on themselves, depends on how you think about it.
...and some of it is knowing that you may have to type 'flee' at any moment. Making it a macro that you could easily hit at moment's notice ain't a bad idea, if you're playing in the 'Rinth...hell, it ain't a bad idea for the rest of the world too. If you get attacked, figure out why. Don't do it again...but be ready to flee so that you don't get dead so easily. That's my advice on how to learn from experience in the game. Living to fight another day sometimes requires just doing it, especially since NPCs rarely take the time to emote.
I can see the logic allowing someone who has lived their whole life in the 'rinth to know if an item would be considered too valuable by most 'rinth standards, i.e the common mugger NPC.
Or is it more preferable that OOC knowledge determines what your PC knows?
I believe it's been said before that a good rule of thumb is that your starting gear and items you can buy in the rinth won't get you attacked.
Unfortunately, that isn't true. There is clothing and armor available that is not safe. Be careful and think people. That's your best advice.
Your starting gear is safe, though.
There are Rinthi shops and then there are Rinthi shops. Some are safe and some aren't.
As a rule of thumb, if Rinthi shop's list reveals to you Templar's robes, silvery silk gowns, Borsail's winged helmets, gem-encrusted bronze daggers and steel dragon statues then it doesn't really proves that they are safe for you to purchase and wear.
So, if spawnloser's advice about using common sense doesn't work for someone, then Cuusardo's advice about shops won't help them either.
Actually, like no other part of the game, all mugging script's aspects are pretty much covered in this and dozens of similar threads. It's no longer part of DISCOVERY, all is left is a test for your common sense. If people keep on asking for more OOC info, then I don't think that Marc's analogy is at all extreme.
That said, I think this thread must be locked and all participants must be banned.
Quote from: "Doppelganger"
That said, I think this thread must be locked and all participants must be banned.
I guess it would be IC sensitive to ask if there is a drink of water to be had in the rinth? Food?
I was able to survive in the Rinth for about an hour and what litle food I saw was friggin' expensive.
Quote from: EonBlueApocalypse on August 09, 2006, 05:53:46 PM
Don't take this as antagonistic, but I thought the 'rinth was supposed to be a challenge? Much like a wilderness within the city? And I thought that people who survived the 'rinth did so by trial and error, and came out with valuable game experience. I mean, I guess newbies could try it, but is it such a tragedy when they die, over and over? That's armageddon.
Seems like Nethack to me, not Armageddon. Die and die until you finally "win".
Except that ultimately, you can't win in armageddon. It's little wins until you die horribly.
Xygax said what needed to be said. Hell, I'm pleasantly surprised that Xygax posted as much pointers and answers in this thread as he did. Trial and error, erring on the side of caution, and maybe a little luck is all a newbie needs to survive and learn. If they die, then that's more phat loot for me without having to lift a finger. No need to add code to cull the flow of noob-corpse fortune into such destitute areas as the Labyrinth.. I mean, come on. Both PC's and NPC's like to afford a good ratburger and petoch-wine combo meal now and again too, you know.
Quote from: Mr.B on December 16, 2009, 10:32:11 AM
Except that ultimately, you can't win in armageddon. It's little wins until you die horribly.
Xygax said what needed to be said. Hell, I'm pleasantly surprised that Xygax posted as much pointers and answers in this thread as he did. Trial and error, erring on the side of caution, and maybe a little luck is all a newbie needs to survive and learn. If they die, then that's more phat loot for me without having to lift a finger. No need to add code to cull the flow of noob-corpse fortune into such destitute areas as the Labyrinth.. I mean, come on. Both PC's and NPC's like to afford a good ratburger and petoch-wine combo meal now and again too, you know.
Mr. B and I never have and agreed or gotten along..Until He had to go and post
the above. QFT
Quote from: Cind on December 16, 2009, 07:36:45 AM
I guess it would be IC sensitive to ask if there is a drink of water to be had in the rinth? Food?
I was able to survive in the Rinth for about an hour and what litle food I saw was friggin' expensive.
I don't think it is too IC sensitive to say that there is food and water to be had. You can pay for it, which is the method most PCs have to take in the Rinth. There is little available for scrounging in any way that you could scrounge, but there is stuff to be scrounged too.
Just keep in mind that if you're scrounging, it really shouldn't be that hard to work up enough coins for something to eat/drink in the Rinth. It just takes some effort.
The question that comes along is, where do you draw the line with what PCs know? Should areas where crime could be committed in the city be flagged because criminals should knows? I do agree that having to wait to get attacked is far from the perfect way to find out, but I don't think players should have a flawless way of determining what is safe or not. The docs on the rinth make it fairly clear. If anything needs changing at all maybe it should simply be made more obvious that wearing almost anything obtained from outside then Labyrinth will get you attacked. It pretty much is common sense as far as I can tell, and if in doubt, keep it hidden.
Value [item]
Take your guesses as to what your uniformed rinthi ideas about what things are worth, and how much people will kill for it.
Quote from: Xygax on August 08, 2006, 11:17:58 PM
If you're being attacked by a 'rinthi NPC for a piece of gear, he'll tell you what he's after. My suggestion if that happens, btw, is to flee immediately. Don't stick around to see if you're tougher than he is; you probably aren't. We're not going to give you instant knowledge of what things are attractive to 'rinthi NPCs, but I'll give you a good guideline now: anything worth more than a decent meal (not a lousy meal, a decent one) is probably worth the effort.
If you need expensive gear, I suggest keeping your newbie-gear (or some other sufficiently worthless outfit) to change back into as you wander through the 'rinth.
-- X
Agreed. It's fine the way it is. I'm sure there are some edge scenarios, where something you have looks like it's worth less then it is, but having played a lot of rinthers and non-rinthers who access it, if you use some common sense you can keep yourself safe.
I personally wouldn't object to rinthi becoming sponsored roles. I've personally had a couple successful rinthi, but before those, I was beaten senseless by the code. The only reason I suggest sponsorship as a possible solution, is that comprehensive docs could be written up, and made available. Of course, I also think that this time could be better spent elsewhere, and I'm sure as hell not willing to invest any sweat equity in something I don't need myself.
...but it's a thought.
Am I the only one who thinks the title of this post contradicts itself using 'safe' and 'rinth' in the same sentence?
Real 'Rinther's don't drink water-- they drink cheap ale and wine.
Bottle for bottle, it costs about as much as water does.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on December 16, 2009, 04:20:19 PM
Real 'Rinther's don't drink water-- they drink cheap ale and wine.
Bottle for bottle, it costs about as much as water does.
That is because it is mostly recycled urine.
Quote from: MarshallDFX on December 16, 2009, 06:23:27 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on December 16, 2009, 04:20:19 PM
Real 'Rinther's don't drink water-- they drink cheap ale and wine.
Bottle for bottle, it costs about as much as water does.
That is because it is mostly recycled urine.
Hey, hey, recycled urine is perfectly usable....I quote Frank Herbert's Dune to you good sir.
Quote from: Gagula on December 16, 2009, 07:01:43 PM
Quote from: MarshallDFX on December 16, 2009, 06:23:27 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on December 16, 2009, 04:20:19 PM
Real 'Rinther's don't drink water-- they drink cheap ale and wine.
Bottle for bottle, it costs about as much as water does.
That is because it is mostly recycled urine.
Hey, hey, recycled urine is perfectly usable....I quote Frank Herbert's Dune to you good sir.
Because we know good ol' Frank wrote nothing but scientific truths. ;)
Quote from: Ourla on December 16, 2009, 10:12:04 PM
Quote from: Gagula on December 16, 2009, 07:01:43 PM
Quote from: MarshallDFX on December 16, 2009, 06:23:27 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on December 16, 2009, 04:20:19 PM
Real 'Rinther's don't drink water-- they drink cheap ale and wine.
Bottle for bottle, it costs about as much as water does.
That is because it is mostly recycled urine.
Hey, hey, recycled urine is perfectly usable....I quote Frank Herbert's Dune to you good sir.
Because we know good ol' Frank wrote nothing but scientific truths. ;)
I just looked back into my ancestral memory and saw that it is true.
Necromancy is not a fun thing... zombies are fun in games and such, but IRL the have books on survival. As for Food in the Rinth... it's there. You just may have to work for it. There are many ways to get things besides a store. I will leave you off with a famous catch phrase "Find out IC."
PS: Don't feed the dead. If you have questions about the game, bring them up in Ask the Players or iif it's IC sensative put it up on the Request Tool.