This is the thread where we can talk about what we learned from this HRPT and how we can improve such things going forward. A few rules: The GDB rules still apply - no flaming, and no posting of sensitive-IC information. You should either disguise events so as to be unrecognizable, or don't post them. If you can't post them because they're too IC-sensitive, email them to me.
We're looking for constructive criticism. I'm not saying you can't disagree or criticize, but we want everyone to remain civil and polite about it.
So then, let's have it.
:arrow: What problems were encountered that we can fix?
:arrow: How can they be fixed, in your opinion?
:arrow: What things went wrong and could be done better?
:arrow: What things went well and should be repeated?
:arrow: Any other comments, suggestions, idead, etc. about this topic?
Staff members can reply if they like, too (though we're also going to have a staff only version of this).
I'll try to cover a few of the facets in one post.
One thing I saw wrong with the HRPT was the lack of active transport for people wanting to get to the frontlines. Realistically, all they would have to do is get to the wagonyard and ask to be conscripted, any conscript or militia or whatever could then jump on a supply wagon bound for the HRPT site.
I very highly suggest that some form of 'automated' transportation system be in place for the next one that involves large numbers outside of major metropolitan areas. The intrinsic problem is that it would have to be kept IC for what is majorly an OOC problem. A transportation script would have to be written up, with a series of echoes that would last about 5 mins. The PC in question would be transferred to a room where those echoes would begin, and at the end of the time would be transferred to 'outside the camp' or wherever.
The biggest problem is probably the units vs people issue. That has been solved, though the damage done.
For the most part, I highly enjoyed the HRPT, and I really do hope youse guys throw one again!
The group I was with didn't have much to do when leaders weren't around. More things to do between pitched battles would have been awesome.
Improved unit-involving combat would also be great.
The event seemed somewhat disconnected from player victories. I understand that for the most part single player deaths are unimportant in conflicts of this scale, but there were certain player-driven events that I feel were not taken into account where the overall course of the HRPT was involved.
For the most part I had a great time.
What problems were encountered that we can fix?
Not having much to do for the people who weren't in the mix of it but were left behind.
How can they be fixed, in your opinion?
All (H)RPTs have people who won't have anything to do. However with an extended one like this, (IMO) it should be addressed as much as possible then just say "Not everyone can be involved." Perhaps having excuses/reasons for the populated area to routinely call on people in the unpopulated area. I saw a call for whores to go to the camps which provided a good reason for whores and bards, but there aren't many PC whores (and there might or might not be bards around). Asking for roles that aren't normally filled, to be filled, is great and can really open up portions of Armageddon that are normally dormant. But it doesn't help those with characters who just won't die.
In this instance perhaps seek out hunters to help provide the armies with food. Can't the army send out their own supply wagons? Of course they can, but that doesn't involve much in the terms of PCs who were left behind (and you can come up with thin excuses like it saves on 'sid if the food gets delivered).
Another idea is to have a mini-plot or two for the unpopulated areas. Again using this one as an example, have the criminal elements take the excuse for the armies being let out to see if they can do their thing more brazenly and either get the smack down laid on them, or not.
Just something to keep in mind for further extended HRPTs.
One issue was just dealt with and shouldn't be as much of a problem in the future.
One of the biggest problems I saw is communication between the staff and the players involved. Not that the communication isn't happening, but it could be better. There was some confusion about how some things were happening during this. I think that communication for any future HRPTs that are run in a similar fashion should include:
1) Icly what is going on. More unsolicited communication from the higher-ups. (NPCs who are superiors to the pc leaders involved.)
2) What this means coming from an OOC standpoint. (Do we need to know if anything that was virtually happening is now in our hands to take care of?)
Basically, a clear separation between what is being done virtually and what is to be done ICly by the pcs involved.
3) Players make it more clear when communicating with the staff as to any assumptions they are having about certain things. The staff in turn, ask a few questions in regards to certain things to make sure that you and the player are on the same page. (There were things that ICly appeared one way and, according to the staff were actually something different but the players had no way to tell due to a mistake with some npcs not loading.)
I still had a really good time overall and I enjoyed it much more than previous HRPTs. I appreciate all the time and effort on everyone's part. 8)
Since I wasn't at the HRPT for very long, most of this is from what I've heard from other players.
Good things, and things that should be repeated:
:arrow: Events that change the world. Goes without saying that people like taking part in something that has an impact and will be remembered.
:arrow: Major conflicts are fun and exciting, and gives all those military folks and warlords a purpose.
:arrow: The frequent updates on the GDB was great, as well as posts on the rumor boards for the home teams.
(can't think of anything else right now, but I'll add them as it comes up)
Bad things:
:arrow: I personally think it lasted too long. While the HRPT was probably great for those who were deeply involved, a lot of people saw a severe decrease in the quality and amount of RP around them. I was on the receiving end, and it's easy for someone to say "make some fun for yourself" when you're nearly on your own for weeks.
:arrow: Apart from the posts on boards, I think people outside of the camps saw very little of the war.
:arrow: More love to the off-peakers. The couple of europeans I know who were at the HRPT say that not once did anything outside of the ordinary happen before 2-3am in their timezone.
QuoteMore love to the off-peakers. The couple of europeans I know who were at the HRPT say that not once did anything outside of the ordinary happen before 2-3am in their timezone.
Ditto. It feels funny Waying the people back home when you've been at war for a whole month, which is a long time in Zalanthan terms.
"Are you all right? Has there been much fighting? Are you scared?"
"...uh, no, mostly we just kind of stand around. I guess I slept through all of the fighting?"
I also agree that more stuff should have happened back home. I know it's been said that the the stance on HRPTs will always be that some people just don't see anything, but that is way different when we're talking about a 4 hour session, instead of a much longer period of time. I feel for the people back home who had basically squat to do for quite some time.
That said, I think it was a great experiment. It was fun, active, and I got to see a lot of PCs in an interesting setting. I look forward to seeing more of this nature. Kudos to all involved on all sides: Allanaki, Tuluki, and Imm.
First of all, I think the HRPT was well done, with the rumours and all the fun stuff, propaganda being on both sides.
One problem of mine, is that I am usualy very busy, and I often missed almost most battles, mayby have it ok for commanders to tell us in OOC a day before or something when an attack is planned, and such.
I also like the ending, though I am confused as what the heck happened, but ah well, I will learn IC I suppose.
i thought it was awesome except that some people died
I'd like to agree with Malifaxis. My pc found it very difficult to find the war. That was my only complaint.
More:
Good
:arrow: Some effort was put into getting people to the war. I know frequent wagon-trips or patrols were made back to the city to pick up fresh cannon fodder.
Bad
:arrow: A purely OOC concern of mine was a sense of forced gratitude on the GDB, and anyone who dared speak anything but high praise of the HRPT were met with unnecessary harshness and some very inappropriate comments.
:arrow: I think the staff could have let people know that it was more than a four hour thing. Most people were given the impression that it would be like previous HRPTs where you go out, have fun for a handful of hours, die, and then that's it. Not saying anything about the idea of an extended HRPT, but if I was one of the players who marched out that first day with a vision of glory and a fun-filled evening, I would have liked to know that I might end up stuck in a camp for RL weeks. I don't know how long the staff had anticipated that the whole thing would last, but they obviously knew that it would be a long haul, and they should have let people know IMO.
As one of the people stuck in town-based roles during this - Sometimes, with gaming, there needs to be a dry, long stretch where nothing happens to make the 'big' moments mean something. I felt that happened tonight, with the return of the armies. To see people's reactions - it actually felt real. Worth all the slowness about town for the last few weeks. :wink:
My only complaint is that during my time in the HRPT, I didn't kill anybody :(
I imagine it was great fun, just not good for an off-peaker.
Quote from: "Malifaxis"I very highly suggest that some form of 'automated' transportation system be in place for the next one that involves large numbers outside of major metropolitan areas. ... A transportation script would have to be written up, with a series of echoes that would last about 5 mins. The PC in question would be transferred to a room where those echoes would begin, and at the end of the time would be transferred to 'outside the camp' or wherever.
I'd suggest, instead, an actual scripted wagon with some semi-intelligent guards that goes back and forth at somewhat predictable intervals. Gives both sides a target. ;-)
From my perspective as a grunt, it seemed like there were only 2-3 people who really had the authority to take people out of the camp in force. In a future extended HRPT, I would love to see several semi-automated tasks that PCs could take part in: guarding a daily supply wagon, scouting, whatever.
Realism questions: for the 'nakki side, is the ratio of wet-wigglers to soldiers really high enough for them to supply all the water? What are all those units drinking? It strikes me that food and water should have been a
major survival issue for both sides.
Is it too easy--unrealistically easy--for PCs to die, or are we just stupid? ;-)
A fun experience, overall, but pretty slow at times.
:arrow: What problems were encountered that we can fix?
-More leaders needed from the start
-Almost nothing to do when leaders weren't about
-Mass killing of PCs.
:arrow: How can they be fixed, in your opinion?
From the very begining there should have been more templars around, possibly spread out through a few timezones, this was fixed as the HPRT moved along however not only should there have been more templar but if the Templar died the same player should have made a new templar to play at that camp inorder to avoid wasting time OOC recruiting and then the new player (Templar) familiarizing themselves with what was going on with the camp. Every time a new templar popped up it took time for them to learn what to do and how to handle the people around them, mistakes were made and usually meant a day or so of boring play even with a templar about.
There was nothing to do when there wasn't a leader except possibly scout and all that meant was moving around barren lands with the possibility of finding another enemy scouting party(which automatically ended up in either you or they running away back to camp). It would have been more interesting if there were more enemy NPC spread out through the area we could abmush and kill or location of interest we could go to gather information. Also some leway to allow PC travel back and forth between camps and cities would have been nice. This would be esspecially good for off-peek players in the camp.
I think the unit gank of doom has been addressed through code. I hate to say this but for the HPRT there were just too many magicker PCs. What ended up happening was Northern camp templars began killing them as fast and whenever they possibly could without the same regard they would give a possible fleeing mundane. I thought was unfair the the magicker's player. On the other side of the coin...a northern templar...one wrong choice in direction to go...mix in couple of invisible magickers...alot of dead PCs...at least when your fighting mundanes there is still a chance to flee. Macroed spells of doom are just instant killers of PCs. I know magicker enthusiast can come up with a million and one ways of why its IC but frankly its not OOCly fun to enter a room and be macroed to death. That said it wasn't as bad with magickers as i thought it could have been but i still really think that for this type of HRPT Magickers should be special apped like templars and given some restrictions. You know don't target PC with sleep instead make it rain lightning bolts that randomly hit people kinda deal, give mundanes chance to flee. Esspecially now that templars won't be able to kill them first. :twisted:
:arrow: What things went wrong and could be done better?
Can't say anything particularly went wrong. With possibly what i've said above. Otherwise i think ever did the best they could and some IC mistakes were made but that happens.
:arrow: What things went well and should be repeated?
I think the way the camps were stratagizing was great to see...I think it would have been nice if the underling players would have been allowed to get more involve with that or at least had smaller roles.
It would have been amazing if there were things around the camps or area that players could find out and use to their advantage, purposely left there from Imms to find. For example, a couple of Meks close to camp X, a hidden path to a cliff with large rocks right above camp Y.
:arrow: Any other comments, suggestions, ideas, etc. about this topic?
I think the imms and esspecially ALL the templars involved did an amazing job. It was not easy to pull off and at times (esspecially with units, sandstorms and patrols) it was down right fustrating but the templars managed to keep their cool and give us all a fun time working along side the imms.
Good Job and Thanks for treating me to a good time
Quote from: "Ava"Realism questions: for the 'nakki side, is the ratio of wet-wigglers to soldiers really high enough for them to supply all the water?
Well, virtual numbers echo real numbers. There were enough PC vivs to water all the PCs in the camp, so there were enough vNPC vivs to water all the vNPCs.
The whole "missions" concept needs to be improved upon. Something like an email list for all participating combatants broken down by which side they were on would be good. Players creating missions could get them approved by staff, and staff could authorize a mailing to email accounts of an upcoming event on which day and time.
This would have let me know what was going on.
Oh, also - closure. Could IMMs ensure that there is closure for everyone, so people who may miss significant events can still log in and find out what to do after a potential situation passes?
Thanks.
Another problem was having no visable source of food to many PCs, I remember waiting for a long time to find a Ruk and a Viv, to get me much needed food and water. I think that a NPC cook, would provide a simple stew(I am getting this idea from the Byn) that all players can ask for(it would also keep track of the amount they eat, so no overeating). To keep this more realistic, the automated supply lines(a real part of any war, that sadly was not usualy implemented very well in the HRPT) would bring in a variable of food supplies, but if that supply line is cut off, then the line of food is cut off, and no food for PCs :). With that a real food shortage would be dangerous, and supply lines would be vital to maintain, and to not over extend yourself(seeing the Allanak camp way out in the middle of cliffs and such, was a bit unrealistic to me). Call this SimWar I guess? I have ideas for vNPC soldiers, but I am too tired now. Imms, just give my SimSupplyline idea a thought for the next war :).
As for the wagon gig and a way of getting people back home involved:
There is a wagon in Alanak/Tuluk's wagonyard. This wagon is clearly marked. PCs go to this wagon and sell the NPC items, most likely limited to armor/weapons/food. The NPCs does not sell these items, but stores them in a storeroom on the wagon. The wagon also doubles as transportation, and they announces that they will leave at high noon each Nekrete (or whatever). The wagon goes to the Allanak/Tuluk camp and stays there for half a RL day, during which the storeroom is unloaded to the camp by PCs. The wagon then departs again, serving as transportation if need be, and returns to the Tuluk/Allanak wagon yard for half a RL day, when the cycle is repeated.
I liked the HRPT. Other than the drama of trying to get to the camps, just about everything was well done. I would suggest that any Immortal available at any time of the day when there is more then one player online in both camps do something, small or large. From chatter chats with NPC soldiers to mini skirmishs, all of these liven the event up.
My only problem with the HRPT was the time that things were generally held at. I had to avoid last night's because I figured it was another thing that would end up lasting until 1:30 or 2 in the morning when I need to get up for work. I know this isn't anyone's fault and is pretty much the best time to do it for some staffers, but for something like last night I think it'd be better if we had it on a Friday night.
The camp boards were a great idea. I just wish myself and others had utilized them a lot more towards the tail end of the war. This wasn't necessarily an immortal-side issue as much as player-side.
The camps had the feeling of real camps, but I think they would have been better off being more spread out. Rather than one room inside, maybe two or three. At times, the screen spam could be a bit overwhelming.
Towards the end, the commoner PC organization and leadership started to fall apart. I'll assume this is because of all the deaths and such. I'm not sure how it could be fixed, honestly. You could promote PCs to be lieutenants and sergeants, but there were some pretty good ones out there already.
Quote from: "bloodfromstone""Are you all right? Has there been much fighting? Are you scared?"
"...uh, no, mostly we just kind of stand around. I guess I slept through all of the fighting?"
As an off-peaker too the way I'm handling that is that if the engagement was something that the whole army was involved in e.g. the assault on the Tuluki camp then I was there and I'll just make it up. If anybody says something dumb like, "but I didn't see you there!", I'll just ignore them - they can hardly have a photographic memory of the two thousand people fighting on their side. As for the smaller engagements I'd just go with something along the lines of how I was attached to a different unit and I'll come up with my own stories about small skirmishes - nothing amazing about how I personally slew three templars, just your average run of the mill war stories.
It might've been nice to have more things happening around off-peak times but seeing as this was pretty much a player run event that was running right the way through the week that was always going to be an issue. I did see the Imms jump in the odd time during off-peak times to run some mini-missions which was appreciated. There were also numerous small skirmishes during off-peak times and given that the new unit code wasn't in for most of the HRPT I'd wager that they were more fun. Going to a battle and getting my PC pummelled by a unit in two seconds isn't fun in my book.
HRPT Thoughts:
First and foremost I believe the immortals did an incredible job at running this. Thank you all for your efforts. I can't imagine just how much time went into running the HRPT - how many hours were spent with all the responding to emails, running the events themselves, dealing with players, and trying to keep the thing manageable. The immortals appear to have done it all with grace and panache - Great Job!
One thing I started to think about after it was brought up here is player interaction and involvement in HRPTs. Having played in a number of HRPTs over the years - I've noticed this common theme: The player leaders are usually quite involved in the process but the non-leaders are often just fodder or ignored.
So what do you do with non-leader characters? Well, if it is a military HRPT I would think that a chain of command should be established by the player leaders in charge of such things. That would hopefully alleviate the inability to take initiative for the non-leaders so they can do various tasks.
I think it's up to the player leaders to provide a series of tasks for the non-leader characters to stay involved. I think the immortals can help but I think that's more a bonus then necessary or a solution, for example, if a party of six are out scouting then they could scare up an enemy npc or something.
The question still remains: What do you do with a bunch of players who will be online when none of the full-scale leaders are on or when there are no missions being run?
There are a variety of camp tasks and there is the interaction of being in a military camp. Typically when reading accounts of historical battles there's a lot of describing days or boredom followed by moments of terror (actual battles). But that still doesn't really answer the question.
I think a series of lesser tasks or goals that could be accomplished by the non-leader types would be work here. Maybe even put some of the rank and file in charge of supply runs. A corporal or sergeant or whatever could watch over the delivery of lesser goods or new people coming out to the front line. So long as there were say, four PCs on, they could do a supply run. Or a patrol. Or maybe a resource gathering mission.
But really, I think these are tasks that the player leaders should be setting down for their underlings based on whatever tasks they need to accomplished from their own superiors.
So if templar Grumpy is set with the task of building a wall then he gathers together the non-leader PCs and issues orders for building that wall. These non-leader PCs now have a standing order to follow until the wall is built. Therefore, each time they log in they work on the wall - or they don't and ignore the order which then leads to the wall not being built. In either case they have contributed to their side's position either positively (by building the wall) or negatively (by not building the wall).
I'm not sure if this really helps any since it doesn't really provide an immortal level solution for greater involvement. But, I hope that people will read it and incorporate it into their play for the next RPT.
Further, a little initiative from a character often goes a long way - be that suggesting ideas, thinking of a task and just doing it (risking punishment if they fail), or doing whatever.
I liked this player driven, prolonged HRPT, for those reasons. It really felt like the players could sway the end result, and it went on for long enough that most people could get involved. Rock on!
Quote from: "Halaster":arrow: What problems were encountered that we can fix?
Units vs. PCs.
Quote:arrow: How can they be fixed, in your opinion?
You guys already seem to be working on some good solutions for units.
Quote:arrow: What things went wrong and could be done better?
Off-peak activities.
Quote:arrow: What things went well and should be repeated?
Several possibilities I can think of: make an effort to have more off-peak leaders, or let some staff animate some leaders so off-peak players can get some action. Said action doesn't neccesarily have to be PC vs PC either. It would be cool if random NPC scouts or platoons were wondering around the battlefield (SimWar).
Quote:arrow: Any other comments, suggestions, idead, etc. about this topic?
I had tons of fun. Peak times are a little bit past my weekday bedtime so I lost a lot of sleep, though. I'd love to see this happen again, once or twice a year or so.
Quote from: "Dre"On the other side of the coin...a northern templar...one wrong choice in direction to go...mix in couple of invisible magickers...alot of dead PCs...at least when your fighting mundanes there is still a chance to flee. Macroed spells of doom are just instant killers of PCs.
I can almost not express how happy this makes me. IC attitude leakover. ;-)
Seriously, I know it's not fun to insta-die, but I'd expect nothing less from an enemy 'gicker. Anything with "templar" written on it is too dangerous to trap..though apparently not dangerous enough. :twisted:
What problems were encountered that we can fix?
How can they be fixed, in your opinion?
What things went wrong and could be done better?
What things went well and should be repeated?
Any other comments, suggestions, idead, etc. about this topic?
For things that could be done better:
I somehow found it unrealistic at times that an entire army camp could move from one location to another within a few hours time of day. It would be alot more interesting, both strategically and realistically, if an army camp required a certain length of time before it could move its locations, and during that time be vulnerable to attacks. Nighttime movement would be even more susceptible to attacks.
As for supply routes, I would like players to have a better control over this than making it automated, in exchange for a longer down-time between each run. That way, those players that may be on at off-peak times, as well as those players idling around while they wait for the next large battle, have an important purpose rather than relying mostly upon the NPCs (which means staff). Making supply runs more vital to a war camp would make the smaller scrimages between PCs a larger aspect of the war, with those smaller wins being able to determine the advantages (in number of NPCs/units, for example) each side has for the larger battles. Also, if you had put NPCs or an automated scipt for the runs, in cases where there were emergencies, the NPCs would not have made reliable and intelligent choices without the aid of the staff.
That brings me to another point, though mentioned earlier. Although the PC leaders for this HRPT were good, for such things as the supply run, and other tasks that a war camp might do, a more spread out leaderbase would have been nice. Also, though in such RPTs, the death rate of PCs might be high, for those who were able to survive the few battles, as well as set themselves apart from the others, could be promoted to take up positions that normally would not be used in "normal" times. If that means making positions up, at least until the war ends, I think that would still help with the leadership part. It would also give non-leaders reasons to participate in the war, besides being apart of the event.
Another thing, at least for the south. For the magickers involved, giving them goals and missions seperate from the rest of the army could have been more beneficial to players involved, both due to IG and OOC reasons. Although it is believeable that the allanaki army would take on as much help as needed, when the number of PC magickers gathered against mundanes builds up, the realistic atmosphere of the army vs. army got distorted. I don't know if that was intended for the allanaki army to rely upon magickers to make such an impact in the balance between armies, but if the PC ratio of magickers and the NPC ratio were to be similar, then the number of PC mages vs. PC mundanes (non-leaders, effectively) could have been less. Not only would it better keep the mystery of magickers for the mundanes involved, it would also give magickers a role and image different than simply the spam-killers they've gotten the reputation for. If the regular PCs at the warcamp start thinking they've gotten accustomed to magickers to the point of not reacting to the spells at all, I think the involvement of magick has gotten alittle too far.
Also, for those back home, I would think the criminal underworld would have sprouted up and done actions that normally would not have been able to be pulled through, but there weren't alot of that to make it believeable that the majority of the standing soldiers were gone. Understably, there might not have been the means, resources, or playerbase to accomplish such things, but in the future, having more far-reaching plots back at the city-states, besides the war front, could help alleviate the boredom for those not participating. After all, it is a Hrpt. :wink:
Aside from all that, the time and effort done by both the staff and players in this was tremendous, and I would look forward to the next such event, if simply because of the feel and environment created due to the location emotes. :lol:
Heh, despite the number of suggestions, I actually liked the HRPT, so don't get me wrong. This is just for improvements.
While rereading my post, another thought came to mind. As an army first leaves its city-state, I would think there would be alot of heavily-armed, well-trained soldiers. With the war continuing on, with both sides taking heavy casualties, the ratio of well-trained soldiers would decrease, with the number of conscripts becoming larger. It would be nice to have this coded similarly, and this based upon the successes of the supply runs that players could control. The more supply runs that are done, the lesser in quality and experience the units would become. So, for the beginning of the war, taking out these supply runs would greatly reduce the attack capacity of the army later down the line. Only makes things more intense and intereseting, I think. :wink:
I will chime in on "there needs to be a transportation solution." Getting recruits to the front lines was much harder than it needed to be, and transporting anyone else who had a legitimate reason to be there was almost impossible. The connection between the city and the camp, logistically speaking, felt really tenuous and non-strategic. I don't have a suggestion for a good solution, but I think there should be something that doesn't 100% rely on PC availability and timing.
:arrow: What problems were encountered that we can fix? How can they be fixed in your opinon.
I dont know if there is code for having NPC practice in combat but that would be a nice feature so that those warrior types can have something to do when someone is not around to train with them.
Also, the camps have needs to fill that are as mundane as when you live in the city: boots to be mended, armor to repair, swords to shar..re-chip. I think more infrastructure for crafting and such would be helpful. Maybe a crafting tent?
/sarcastic humor on
Lastly, one of my characters signed up to be 'ho-ed out and never once was she 'ho-ed'! I made a perfectly fine f-me character and she didnt do anything except get stuck out on the field of battle looking clue-less and scared. What is up with that? There needs to be more whoring and "sudden acts of passion" in the game. Are the Allanaki Nobles, Templars, Warriors, all gay? Is that too much IC information?
Oops! :D
/sarcastic humor off
:arrow: What things went well and should be repeated?
I loved the entire concept of the HRPT. I am sad that it has come to an end really. I think more of these should be done (as well as the shorter HRPTs) because it adds to the game and I am sure this will spin off RP for players for months as well as reinforce the hatred between Tuluk and Allanak.
:arrow: Any other comments, suggestions, ideas, etc. about this topic?
More NPCs that can attack and give the feeling of a sustained war. Maybe even Allanak and Tuluki units that continue to patrol outside of their cities (NPCs) that can give the feeling of the sustained conflict.
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"I will chime in on "there needs to be a transportation solution." Getting recruits to the front lines was much harder than it needed to be, and transporting anyone else who had a legitimate reason to be there was almost impossible. The connection between the city and the camp, logistically speaking, felt really tenuous and non-strategic. I don't have a suggestion for a good solution, but I think there should be something that doesn't 100% rely on PC availability and timing.
With more PC leaders spread out, this shouldn't be that big of a problem that we would need NPCs to do the work for us.
QuoteThe camps had the feeling of real camps, but I think they would have been better off being more spread out. Rather than one room inside, maybe two or three. At times, the screen spam could be a bit overwhelming
This would be my top suggestion. At least for the Allanak camp, I would have loved to see it set up more like one of the tribal camps, with a few rooms, or even two rooms - one with a central campfire/table and the corral, and then a second room deeper into the camp with command tents. Maybe a couple of big open-air canopy tents, and an NPC cook rationing out bread and water would have been cool also. Spreading it out would have made the in-camp experience a bit more realistic.
I think it's important to note that even with the PC to PC ratio of mages and mundanes, overall we were looking at maybe 12 mages to 2,000 soldiers. Realistically, then, the mage presence in the Allanak camp was far from overwhelming. And the supply question was handled virtually for the army. I know this isn't sensitive to the PCs involved, but in a purely IC sense, the army and its supplies were important. The unaffiliated conscripts truly were expendable, and it made sense that they would have to scrounge and struggle a bit more to be supplied if they weren't part of a larger organization.
I do have a problem with the idea of automated wagons to bring people to the front lines. I know there were a lot of players who wanted to get involved and didn't have a way to make it out there, but I think security would have been fairly tight - and I liked that people had to be "screened" by a PC leader before they could get into a camp. I would have had a problem with anyone being able to hop on a wagon and come into the camp without being approved by PC leadership on some level. Security.
Even having more PC leaders on at off-peak times might not have led to more war-action... just larger patrols in the empty wastes. For any major action, there still needed to be an immortal on.. or two. One for your side and one for the enemy so they'd realistically respond. I do think that having small automated NPC patrols wandering around would give PCs targets that didn't require Imm coordinating.
Overall, I thought it went well. My main suggestion is expanding the size of the camps a bit... spread them out between a couple rooms or more, or spread them out to have some more open tarps and tents so things could be a little more organized instead of having one room for everyone and everything.
Quote from: "slipshod"I do have a problem with the idea of automated wagons to bring people to the front lines. I know there were a lot of players who wanted to get involved and didn't have a way to make it out there, but I think security would have been fairly tight - and I liked that people had to be "screened" by a PC leader before they could get into a camp. I would have had a problem with anyone being able to hop on a wagon and come into the camp without being approved by PC leadership on some level. Security.
Realistically speaking, though, there should be more than
one PC in the whole city who can hook recruits or others up to the front lines. When that PC wasn't around, the response to recruits was reduced to "uh, yeah, you need to find that person...or you can just try going there and I'll let them know you're coming, as dangerous as that is..."
I don't know if the situation was this way in my city because there weren't PCs who wanted to do the transportation job, or if there weren't enough PC leaders, or what. It just feels really wrong to me that, although we can rely on NPCs and VNPCs for battle stuff, we can't use them for other critical military applications?
While I didn't keep a list and then keep track of all the PCs that I tried to hook up to the front lines through this very tenuous method, I strongly suspect that there were significant numbers of PCs who just dropped out of sight and out of the HRPT because they couldn't get to the camp. I also know for a fact that there were good numbers of PCs who had to get there on their own, in spite of the security risks. This is just dumb.
PCs should not have to wait for that one transportation contact to be online, or for a unit of soldiers to come back to the city for resupply, in order to get hooked up with the army.
Also, it puts the northern city at a disadvantage against the southern when newbie magicker characters are able to get to their camp quickly and easily under their own power (which I observed happening) and yet newbie mundane characters are not.
Here's another comment from a city person who never actually got herself out to the camps...
All in all I enjoyed the HRPT, and though I did notice a slowdown in city events, I definitely don't think that alone should discourage the staff from running a similar event again.
So here are a few suggestions/ideas I had on what we could improve on:
:arrow: A transportation solution would be nice, but another possible idea is to make the camps themselves a login point. During HRPT-ish events only, allow players the option of writing their background as a recruit-level PC of either side when they app a new character. They can then log into the game and pick the war as a login point, and appear as a person who is already a part of the army, and equipped maybe with a basic recruit patch, a sword, a helmet, etc. They'd get less newbie money to compensate, and would still need to report to a PC leader to get orders, but this way you could play yourself as a new recruit and a recent arrival to the front, without having to start in the city, get recruited, and then get to the battle yourself. Essentially you get into the action faster.
:arrow: For a longer, drawn out war as this one ended up being, it might be a good idea if the entire PC militia/templar force of both sides was not all out at the front at once. For major battles/missions, they could certainly ride out, but keeping at least one templar back in either city to deal with stuff on the home front would be nice too. These templars could rotate, obviously, so one person doesn't get left out of all the fun, but this way city PCs would still have somebody of authority to approach with problems. I saw an increase in PC criminal activity in the absence of the law enforcement -- which is great -- but sometimes it felt like the criminal PCs were being braver than usual because they knew no PC templars were around to arrest them, which is not so great. It keeps realism a bit better if you don't have to rely entirely on NPCs and the limitations of the crime code.
:arrow: Sort of related to the above, have some auxilliary events taking place on the home front, too. Some politics could be invented related to the war for nobles to dig their claws into, or there could be staff-run plots about more lawbreaking going on since a whole army is no longer around. Maybe in Allanak, rinthi gangs are started to press south side, or there is an increase in spice smuggling. And (guess what), Tuluk has unliscensed crime too, which might start playing a bigger role with the attentions of the Faithful turned elsewhere. Or maybe with less Faithful in Tuluk to stamp things out, there are more 'treasonous' rumors and whispering than usual, more mage sightings, etc. Stuff like this, again, also encourages templar/militia PCs to not be JUST at the front, since there may be issues in the city to address too. The downside is the war might drag out a little longer if they're constantly shuffling around, but as long as there's still action going on, this may not be a down side.
Essentially, create a few war-related sub plots that could occur to keep PCs that may not be in the war themselves busy. The more plot hooks and things that the war can dish out, the better it will be and the more memorable it will be for all players.
:arrow: Advertise the HRPT. On other MUD forums I see the other games making promotional posts saying "We're having this and this event, log in and check us out!" I don't know if Arm did that, but we should be. I think a time like this would be one of our best times to attract and hook new players.
:arrow: Not that the way this one was concluded was bad, but I think in the future, having a more decisive conclusion would be nicer than both sides returning home claiming "we won!" Having one side being clearly defeated - and forcing them to admit defeat - just sounds a little more fun to me. I'm afraid that both cities are going to go on as usual... yay we won the war, boy those 'nakkis/Tulukis are pathetic, etc, like they already have been.
But all in all, this was a great event, and I'm sad I never got a chance to get into the thick of it.
Quote from: "ale six"
:arrow: Advertise the HRPT. On other MUD forums I see the other games making promotional posts saying "We're having this and this event, log in and check us out!" I don't know if Arm did that, but we should be. I think a time like this would be one of our best times to attract and hook new players.
Great idea.
Quote from: "ale six"
:arrow: Not that the way this one was concluded was bad, but I think in the future, having a more decisive conclusion would be nicer than both sides returning home claiming "we won!" Having one side being clearly defeated - and forcing them to admit defeat - just sounds a little more fun to me. I'm afraid that both cities are going to go on as usual... yay we won the war, boy those 'nakkis/Tulukis are pathetic, etc, like they already have been.
Yea, it made me feel a bit sad, having seen both sides claiming victory.
Quote from: "ale six"
Having one side being clearly defeated - and forcing them to admit defeat - just sounds a little more fun to me. I'm afraid that both cities are going to go on as usual... yay we won the war, boy those 'nakkis/Tulukis are pathetic, etc, like they already have been.
Quote from: "Yokunama"
Yea, it made me feel a bit sad, having seen both sides claiming victory.
Perhaps Halaster could be enticed to provide a little more information in his final update like add relative sizes of the armies compared to when they first set out. And other non-subjective information like that (number of dead templars? leaders?).
I really tried to get involved in the HRPT as a city-based character in the first week or so.. Then when I noticed how many characters were just hanging around trying to get there and never managing to, or dying trying to get there on their own, my character and I just really stopped caring..
I saw some city-based characters really trying to push the war issue, but you could see they were doing it mostly with the "My city is better than yours." mentality, not really because we knew what was happening.. Most discussions were based on what we would read from the in-game and GDB rumors.
The ending pretty much made me roll my eyes, too..
Now like Hymmen said, I hope I won't get thrashed for speaking negatively about it, but considering I never managed to make it there and I never really saw anything major related to the war in the villages and city I've visited, I can't really say anything positive about it :)
I can't comment on much, given that I wasn't there, so I'll limit myself to two points:
:arrow: This is the most realistic war I've seen yet because it was drawn out. I know a lot of players didn't like that, and I can understand why, but I think most conflicts between the city-states should be exactly like this. In fact, the Red Desert has been the site of two previous major battles, if I'm recalling correctly, in pregame history.
:arrow: Given what I know about the objective on Allanak's side, to say that there was a clear victory on both sides is not very realistic. Napoleon tried that with Egypt and later Russia, but he never did succeed in convincing the people; ie, too many witnesses that knew the truth came back with him to France. I realize that there are layers of truth in every society, but this last news blurb just seems too icly airtight.
Quote from: "Yokunama"
Yea, it made me feel a bit sad, having seen both sides claiming
I hope you don't assume that it's just because "the Imms said so" - definite IC reasons backing victory claims on both sides.
QuoteThis is the most realistic war I've seen yet because it was drawn out. I know a lot of players didn't like that, and I can understand why, but I think most conflicts between the city-states should be exactly like this. In fact, the Red Desert has been the site of two previous major battles, if I'm recalling correctly, in pregame history.
Seconded. For once, a battle that could potentially have vast impacts doesn't take place over the course of two or three days, IC'ly. I was a -huge- fan of this HRPT style, except for a couple things.
:arrow: I think -units- should actually be avoided as much as possible in the future. Make those just stay at the camp, and be nothing but a representation to the players of how strong their army is. So...after a battle, numbers are adjusted...the next day, people log in and take a look at their camp to see how badly they got hurt.
Instead, make things a lot more spread out and 'skirmish-like'. I know that for clans, templars pretty much have to lead the npc's...but I'd like it a lot more if there were pretty consistent clashes of just mundanes, and not in huge numbers either. No schedules 'skirmishes', just random meetings between groups of 5-8 people and individual npc's.
:arrow: Please...put a limit on the number of npc's a leader can take out with them. It's kind of redundant to have players when they bring out 8-10 npcs to order all to attack. Even with that unit code, the only shift you'll likely see is more single npc's being brought so that they can still beat the snot out of important pc's as quickly as possible. Large amounts of npc's should require large amounts of leaders who report to their 'main leader'. So huge battles with lots of npc's requires a basic RPT within the HRPT.
:arrow: As much as I like the idea of total control being given to players, there's a problem with people being too afraid of losing their character and being supremely inactive when it comes to objectives. Combat situations need to become a common thing so that the idea of going into combat doesn't scare people off...and certain 'side goals' should be made to give objectives to accomplish in the event that an epic battle is not yet plausible.
:arrow: Uhm...not to sound greedy...but in this particular HRPT, there was very little IC incentive beyond loyalty for -any- non-militia, non-noble character. I'd go so far as to say that the OOC desire to take part was blatantly visible. Next time there is conscription, hiring, and so on and so forth...I'd -really- like to see some rewards go to those mundanes participating.
That being said...this is the first step towards player-driven TACTICS determining who wins. That's a huge deal, a lot bigger than some people realize, I think. Lyksae and Tor, Enjoy.
Overall, I very...very...-very- much favor this sort of war to the old ones. Just need to find a way to cut down on the 'stand outside and watch' time and the 'patrol even when we know no one will be around at this hour' time.
Thought of another comment...
Playing a city-bound character who was probably as involved as possible with the war, I'm still relieved that the HRPT is now over. It was fun, a lot of stuff happened, and I think it lasted just about the perfect amount of time. Any longer and the lack of resolution and lack of players in the city would have really started to get to me OOCly.
Quote from: "Vynestra"
Lastly, one of my characters signed up to be 'ho-ed out and never once was she 'ho-ed'! I made a perfectly fine f-me character and she didnt do anything except get stuck out on the field of battle looking clue-less and scared. What is up with that? There needs to be more whoring and "sudden acts of passion" in the game. Are the Allanaki Nobles, Templars, Warriors, all gay? Is that too much IC information?
Oops! :D
I'm sure this was due to a complete lack of privacy inside and outside of the camp more than anything else. Where was a warrior supposed to get together with your character? Going out into the sands was forbidden, and, more to the point, stupid. Who wants to be caught by a raptor with his sandcloth trousers down?
Even the command tents were open to view inside.
Also, with no coin flowing in the camp, even if a tent had been set aside for this economic activity, your character would soon have been in possession of all the coins in the camp and business would get really slow anyhow. :lol:
Uhm. I had a character who did stuff in the camp, but yeah, it was faded. And if you were hired to be 'ho-d out'...couldn't it have been...virtually done as well?
I know it may not be as time consuming, but yeah...in a war, I don't think romantic/sexual scenes are the most diligent use of time.
I don't know if this is helpful or not. But as someone who plays a character who couldn't ICly be involved in the war, and wasn't involved in the war, and was in the city the entire time, I'm just as confused after it as I was when it started. OOCly, my observation is that it was nothing more than a skirmish, but with lots of people instead of a few small groups. I don't see any "result." I don't see any changes. I don't see any side's city as being any different now, than it was before it started. Based on the Halaster posts, it sounds like a bunch of people got into a fight, and then the fight ended, and everyone went back home. As a person who wasn't participating directly in the war, and had no direct communication with anyone who was directly involved, anyone with any "inside info" ICly, that's all it looked like to me. And to my character. A whole lotta nothing, with a bunch of dead people to show for it.
If there was some "meat" to this plotline, if there was an actual plotline, neither I nor my character has heard anything about it. And yes, my character has asked. And been told by the people she's asked, that they're as much in the dark about the whole thing as she is. If they're lying, that's great. But it leaves me wondering what, exactly, happened in the last RL month in this game, and why. The same thing that troubled me in the beginning in another related threat, still troubles me now. And if the other characters are telling the truth (which I admit might not be the case), then there are other people who experienced the same thing.
Some scripted objects might have been able to provide some meaningful activity during the lulls between moments of action.
For example, at one point, people began collecting rocks to contribute toward the construction of a wall. The problem was that there was no bin to put them in, and they created an unmanageable clutter in the room, so they were removed.
If a scripted 'wall' object were in placed, rocks could be contributed to the pair of dwarven stonesmiths mentioned as part of the object. They'd be removed upon being donated, and the wall object would keep a tally of how much weight in stone had been accumulated. As the weight accumulated, the ldesc and desc would change to show the completeness of the wall.
This could apply toward building a watchtower as well, that when finished would give a view of further rooms.
Another example is digging a well. PCs could pitch in by picking up one of the handful of pickaxes around and setting to. As they labor, the well gets deeper and maybe even water is reached eventually. (Attempts not recommended for purely sandy environments).
A sparring pen would have been useful in the camp. Conscripts would have to train separately from the militia though.
Quote from: "Lizzie"I don't know if this is helpful or not. But as someone who plays a character who couldn't ICly be involved in the war, and wasn't involved in the war, and was in the city the entire time, I'm just as confused after it as I was when it started. OOCly, my observation is that it was nothing more than a skirmish, but with lots of people instead of a few small groups. I don't see any "result." I don't see any changes. I don't see any side's city as being any different now, than it was before it started. Based on the Halaster posts, it sounds like a bunch of people got into a fight, and then the fight ended, and everyone went back home. As a person who wasn't participating directly in the war, and had no direct communication with anyone who was directly involved, anyone with any "inside info" ICly, that's all it looked like to me. And to my character. A whole lotta nothing, with a bunch of dead people to show for it.
If there was some "meat" to this plotline, if there was an actual plotline, neither I nor my character has heard anything about it. And yes, my character has asked. And been told by the people she's asked, that they're as much in the dark about the whole thing as she is. If they're lying, that's great. But it leaves me wondering what, exactly, happened in the last RL month in this game, and why. The same thing that troubled me in the beginning in another related threat, still troubles me now. And if the other characters are telling the truth (which I admit might not be the case), then there are other people who experienced the same thing.
Oh my... THE PLOT WAS THE BEST PART!
Find out ic.
If you really think about the Staff Announcements posts by Halaster you can dig up something, I think. I wasn't involved in it in any way at all and I still have an idea of what happened and how both sides could come out in a good state of mind. Just look at differences in the behavior of the two armies, et cetera.
:)
First of all, to whoever may be wondering - there was a reason for this HRPT, though it might not be commonly known.
You all know the magick words - find out IC. ;)
I've had a fairly small involvement in this HRPT, and I felt my character was involved in the HRPT to a far lesser degree than it should have.
I was also disappointed by how various things that were brought to one of the camps weren't used at all and seemed to be completely unimportant to the events.
As a concept, I think the HRPT was excellent; however, in future HRPTs of this nature I'd be very delighted if there was a ratio of two RPTs per RL day. It can be foraging trips, clearing gith presence from the wagon lines, racing against the opposite army to a small oasis, having a small fire destroy supplies or tents, and so on.
I think that both sides claiming victory is pretty realistic given the nature of the two city states. Both would claim victory and rigourously suppress all information to the contrary, each in their own unique way of dealing with dissent of any sort. Nothing less than an occupation would alter this.
From what I know of the war (I was citybound throughout) it seems to have been done fairly realistic all around. Even the ever-decreasing communication and flow of information from the front to the city I was in was probably quite realistic because of a lot of IC factors. However it was this last thing which more than anything else, for me, made it un-fun to be in the city throughout it all.
For the first week or so, I thought it was going to be great to be in the city and get to play out the city scenarios which flowed from the war. And despite the rapidly dwindling numbers of PC's, it was actually fun at first. There did seem to be lots of RP opportunities arising. But as time went on, and we heard less and less, there was less and less to do.
And it's not a whine folks. Which is how many of these sorts of comments during the war were treated. My PC was one who probably ought to have been hearing at least some information. And didn't. And I did try to generate some RP in the city too and couldn't seem to get anything going. All in all, it was pretty frustrating.
Edited to add something constructive: Next time it'd be great if you could throw the city folk a bone or two. :)
Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"Quote from: "Vynestra"
Lastly, one of my characters signed up to be 'ho-ed out and never once was she 'ho-ed'! I made a perfectly fine f-me character and she didnt do anything except get stuck out on the field of battle looking clue-less and scared. What is up with that? There needs to be more whoring and "sudden acts of passion" in the game.
I'm sure this was due to a complete lack of privacy inside and outside of the camp more than anything else. Where was a warrior supposed to get together with your character? Going out into the sands was forbidden, and, more to the point, stupid. Who wants to be caught by a raptor with his sandcloth trousers down?
Yeah, I had thought about that once I got to the camp. I think it would have been good to have a "special" tent for certain activity. However, if you saw the movie Alexander, you saw Val Kilmer's character "doing it" with that male captive in front of everyone with little discretion, so it might be realistic to do it out in the open especially if someone is trying to show how dominant or strong they are.
Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"Also, with no coin flowing in the camp, even if a tent had been set aside for this economic activity, your character would soon have been in possession of all the coins in the camp and business would get really slow anyhow. :lol:
Yeah, I as a player was like "This might be fun to RP as a character concept" when one of my characters saw the posting on the IC board about them taking whores to the front. When something happened and made a need for having a new character came about I thought I would go for the opportunity. I wasnt even thinking of the coin aspect to it when I went into the roll. Heck, even when the character told people in the camp what she was there for the reaction was like "Well, do you have any combat skill?". Inside I was chuckling and thinking "They must not like to RP certain things". That is alright with me but it was almost like certain -things- were avoided at all costs.
This is just an observation but people are much more willing to RP killing someone either with combat code or otherwise than do certain activity. Add me to the camp that says make love not war :D
Quote from: "Lizzie"I don't see any "result." I don't see any changes. I don't see any side's city as being any different now, than it was before it started.
Patience, little one. The HRPT is less than 24 hours over, some things take time! It's way way way too premature to say there are no results (besides, you may not SEE them yet).
Quote from: "Lizzie"
Based on the Halaster posts, it sounds like a bunch of people got into a fight, and then the fight ended, and everyone went back home.
A good summation of events. So what's wrong with that? Such things happen sometimes. One thing we've tried to avoid is to make the game a fairy tale, because Zalanthas isn't a fairy tale. By that I mean, having things go just the way everyone likes it, or having things to clear-cut and black-and-white. Instead, we try to make things realistic. Sometimes, a soldier simply doesn't really know "why" they're going to war or know what's going on behind the scenes. Or sometimes, the public is lied to. Or sometimes, there is no real clear-cut winner (or both sides claim victory). Having every plot be a mold from a classic fairy tale, or a typical D&D dungeon-crawl or conflict->rewards scenario just isn't the way it always works, IMO. Not to say those things don't have their place - they do, and they're enjoyable. But again, we try to make the game realistic and grey. Sometimes things make sense because of that, sometimes they don't make sense. Reminds me a lot of RL, in that way, heh.
QuoteThat is alright with me but it was almost like certain -things- were avoided at all costs.
I don't know when you showed up, and I don't think this is too IC, since the situation is pasted, but certain things -were- avoided at all costs. There were orders involved concerning that sort of thing and others, so it might have just been soldiers following orders.
Quote from: "Kennath"Quote from: "Lizzie"I don't know if this is helpful or not. But as someone who plays a character who couldn't ICly be involved in the war, and wasn't involved in the war, and was in the city the entire time, I'm just as confused after it as I was when it started. OOCly, my observation is that it was nothing more than a skirmish, but with lots of people instead of a few small groups. I don't see any "result." I don't see any changes. I don't see any side's city as being any different now, than it was before it started. Based on the Halaster posts, it sounds like a bunch of people got into a fight, and then the fight ended, and everyone went back home. As a person who wasn't participating directly in the war, and had no direct communication with anyone who was directly involved, anyone with any "inside info" ICly, that's all it looked like to me. And to my character. A whole lotta nothing, with a bunch of dead people to show for it.
If there was some "meat" to this plotline, if there was an actual plotline, neither I nor my character has heard anything about it. And yes, my character has asked. And been told by the people she's asked, that they're as much in the dark about the whole thing as she is. If they're lying, that's great. But it leaves me wondering what, exactly, happened in the last RL month in this game, and why. The same thing that troubled me in the beginning in another related threat, still troubles me now. And if the other characters are telling the truth (which I admit might not be the case), then there are other people who experienced the same thing.
Oh my... THE PLOT WAS THE BEST PART!
Find out ic.
I found that not only to be a waste of thread space but mean spirited too.
It does remind me of something though, this however is not really only isolated to HPRT.
After an hour or two of doing nothing at the camp a couple of templars would log on, and i'd have to sit there while they spoke gibberish for while. They could have sat in the corner and 'spoken quietly' and yeah i know alot of people have listen...good...give us something to talk about or tell others back at home. I knwo its ic for them to try to keep it a secret...just stop trying so hard, Alot of things that should be IC and realistic aren't there to make the game more enjoyable.
You ask 'Why are we here?'
Answer "For the glory of the ivory'
ICly: thats great
OOCly: what the fuck.
Okay maybe the corporal is more talkative...woops....they ran into a mek and died...
All these supposedly great stories and plots...all confirmed by handful of lucky players and the imms that they did happen and they were great. :roll:
The game needs a few more big mouths, ghosipers, loud talkers and people who don't lock themselves in three rooms to plot. Along side special apped sages, historians and bards who have access to the plots and stories of way passed through docs. People who i can ICly pay to tell me what really happened at Luirs 100 IC years ago or just to pass down the stories and history of the people.
It would make sitting at taverns and being stuck in an isolated clan more interesting then watching yet another bunch of new PCs flirt and play footsies with each other for the millionth time. :evil:
Its not fair to say find out ICly when the only way you can is if you in the right place and in the right time, special apped or with the right IC mindset and needing to having had kissed up to so so special apped PC for couple of RL months. Okay so maybe i am exsaggerating a bit on the difficulty but it still can be too much of a pain in the ass sometimes and impossible for others.
Tuluk is who strikes me as odd in this specific war. Anyway, I would also say that transportation to the battlefield should be simpler. I lost a character in this very way.. though it was tons of fun.
I'm fairly sure that everyone in the north should know now why the war happened. The info is out there in minimal detail, greater detail can indeed be found out IC.
I agree that it's cool when IC info is "accidentally" leaked in game. I found out what the war was about due to overhearing an imm-animated character. That rocked hard. Imms probably do that intentional leak stuff more frequently than players do; players should do more of it.
If you are in the northlands, I suggest finding your local bard and asking questions of him/her. You'll probably at least get a colorful story :) And you don't need to kiss up to get it, nor is it "expensive" to get that info...as long as you're satisfied with the party line.
"Find out IC" shouldn't really be confused for "getting your OOC info desires satisfied," because they are entirely different things.
Interaction: It really sucked the playerbase from the city, basically you had to be in the war if you wanted some steady interaction. Also I don't like the idea of newbies logging in and thinking where is everyone? Even at the war camps if it wasn't peak hours there was nothing to do there either.
Spam: The spam was pretty bad. There were not enough containers for everything so there was a massive amount of things piled into room descriptions and such. Next time there should be more chests and shelves to keep each room organized and bareable. Everywhere I looked suddenly there was over a page of stuff on the screen. It was overwhelming and kind of took away from the atmosphere.
Spam Attacking: I experienced this personally twice within my short time there and it's definitely a problem, I think that the new order unit attack thing will definitely help, but also I think unit's should have a chance to guard better and guard from arrows if they don't already. Sometimes it is also hard to manage soldiers because they all look the same. I think the idea that you should not be able to see everytime someone misses an attack is a good one. You should be able to only see when other people -land- a hit. That way the screen is not filled with spam but you can still see how the other fights around you are fairing.
IMM Assistance: I felt bad for the imms because so much multi tasking must have been required and so many PCs had so many demands to actually keep the war progressing. They really did a good job keeping up with everyone and meeting needs but at the same time I feel that because the war progressed the way it died there was were many times character had to be broken, there was OOC confusion and IMMs had to be called on to actually make the mission happen. The IMMs kept things flowing as best they could and they did a good job of being ontop of things but all together I think that things were choppy. No one's fault really this is a text based game and things will be that way.
All and all, I am not sure this prolonged HRPT was better then just a regular HRPT. I would have just as soon preferred the good ole marching in and attacking to this prolonged HRPT but that's just me. There was a good sense of realism at times because of the way that this HRPT was set up and alot of good experiences but I just personally don't like how much the playerbase was sucked up during it or the choppy, spammy bits.
Before I had a character that experienced the HRPT I was playing an independant character that traveled independantly and things were so boring because I would maybe see one person every now and then while traveling in usually very popular hunting grounds. Also in the cities there were very few people. For awhile we were having a good 60 to 70 people on during peak hours but after/during the HRPT I have noticed that it went back down to 45 - 50 people on during peak hours.
i just wanted to say that I'm glad units have finally been fixed. I always found it distasteful that my first long lived character perished to a mishmash of enemy "order followers," meaning (i suppose), NPC soldiers.
Quote from: "Bebop"Interaction: It really sucked the playerbase from the city, basically you had to be in the war if you wanted some steady interaction. Also I don't like the idea of newbies logging in and thinking where is everyone?
This is a good point. Perhaps there could have been a temporary option put into the Hall of Kings to point to the Allanaki camp and Tuluki camp.
Quote from: "Anonymous"The game needs a few more big mouths, ghosipers, loud talkers and people who don't lock themselves in three rooms to plot. Along side special apped sages, historians and bards who have access to the plots and stories of way passed through docs. People who i can ICly pay to tell me what really happened at Luirs 100 IC years ago or just to pass down the stories and history of the people.
This is sooooo true.
The playerbase on Arm has usually been a collective plot vortex that keeps secrets with absolute fervor because the players already talked about it over an IM.
Part of the problem is the fanatic templarate that thinks it should be able to control the mouths of an entire city-state rather than use the gossip mill to its own ends. The other part is the fanatical militia that seems unable to behave like individuals.
All of your efforts will be forgotten if you don't let information flow. There was a battle I recall not too long ago that conveniently never made it to the public ear and should have despite any attempts at gossip quelling, but the entire affair was snuffed out.
From a staff perspective I have to say that very few secrets actually remain secret on Armageddon. They almost all get out and get out fairly quickly. During this HRPT, almost every secret got out through various means. Not every PC may have heard everything, but it was certainly not for a lack of leaks, spills and spies.
Quote from: "Naiona"From a staff perspective I have to say that very few secrets actually remain secret on Armageddon. They almost all get out and get out fairly quickly. During this HRPT, almost every secret got out through various means. Not every PC may have heard everything, but it was certainly not for a lack of leaks, spills and spies.
Well, maybe it's just me then. It just seems that, unless I'm in one of those "in-the-know" type clans, I don't end up hearing anything. I can understanding hearing some things some of the time, but I'm confused when I hear nothing all of the time. If it weren't for the announcements Halaster made, I wouldn't have had any information regarding the war.
There was so much information leaking out during this I find it surprising that some -haven't- found out what was going on exactly. Spies up the wazzoo in this one for sure on both sides.
Quote from: "Halaster"Quote from: "Lizzie"I don't see any "result." I don't see any changes. I don't see any side's city as being any different now, than it was before it started.
Patience, little one. The HRPT is less than 24 hours over, some things take time! It's way way way too premature to say there are no results (besides, you may not SEE them yet).
Quote from: "Lizzie"
Based on the Halaster posts, it sounds like a bunch of people got into a fight, and then the fight ended, and everyone went back home.
A good summation of events. So what's wrong with that? Such things happen sometimes. One thing we've tried to avoid is to make the game a fairy tale, because Zalanthas isn't a fairy tale. By that I mean, having things go just the way everyone likes it, or having things to clear-cut and black-and-white. Instead, we try to make things realistic. Sometimes, a soldier simply doesn't really know "why" they're going to war or know what's going on behind the scenes. Or sometimes, the public is lied to. Or sometimes, there is no real clear-cut winner (or both sides claim victory). Having every plot be a mold from a classic fairy tale, or a typical D&D dungeon-crawl or conflict->rewards scenario just isn't the way it always works, IMO. Not to say those things don't have their place - they do, and they're enjoyable. But again, we try to make the game realistic and grey. Sometimes things make sense because of that, sometimes they don't make sense. Reminds me a lot of RL, in that way, heh.
Quoted the above for context, as this thought is not directed specifically toward Halaster or Lizzie. One of the coolest things about Arm, is not knowing the whole story, dying, and later with a new pc who was never meant to have any connection to your dead pc the story continues to unfold only you see it from a whole new perspective. I love that it's not a finte find out everything at once experience.
Quote from: "Intrepid"Quote from: "Naiona"From a staff perspective I have to say that very few secrets actually remain secret on Armageddon. They almost all get out and get out fairly quickly. During this HRPT, almost every secret got out through various means. Not every PC may have heard everything, but it was certainly not for a lack of leaks, spills and spies.
Well, maybe it's just me then. It just seems that, unless I'm in one of those "in-the-know" type clans, I don't end up hearing anything. I can understanding hearing some things some of the time, but I'm confused when I hear nothing all of the time. If it weren't for the announcements Halaster made, I wouldn't have had any information regarding the war.
Oh i wouldn't say its just you. :wink:
While i don't doubt that the information is in the world and not only in the imms and templars minds, the few players that know the info are usually quite tight lipped about it. Why? well i am sure there are a couple of reasons though bragging rights (IC and OOC) seems to be one of them.
There are of course some exception and that said I've alway found it funny alot of the time the only PCs that know the truth of what actually happened and why, are dead. Its funny listening to someone tell what happened and OOCly laughing to yourself and saying if they only knew.
Thats sometimes part of the fun of the game.
This HRPT was a little better i will admit when it came to spreading info, most PC will have heard something if not everything or it being accurate. The bards knowing more then usual is great. Having said that I began making a bit more of an effort to spread word to said bards after (ooc and ic pleads) and i would recomend other people try to do the same.
The special apped sage/historian/bard with access to documented stories about what happened in the past and great long forgotten plots will probably deserve its own thread eventually.
I quite agree that everything tends to be pretty tight-lipped. I don't think everyone should know everything, but it is VERY often that something happens and the general consensus is "That doesn't make sense, unless there's something more to it.", and maybe two people have the knowledge to say "OH! But there is! It's just IC info." Not that there is anything wrong with that... Except, in my experience, nothing has ever happened a while down the line to make people say "Oh, now it makes sense. They were just building up to X and they have to keep Y secret." Again, from my (limited) experience, people scratching their heads for a while, some of them learning about what happened OOCly, others never finding out, until something else happens and it leaves everyone's minds.
I dunno. It just seems like the big driving plots would be cooler if more people knew what was going on, instead of feeling like they were being hauled along for what maybe a very in depth plot event, but may also be just a plot device to get some action going.
*shrug* Maybe I'm a little bitter from always playing mundanes with no political power. :)
Quote from: "Bebop"Interaction: It really sucked the playerbase from the city, basically you had to be in the war if you wanted some steady interaction. Also I don't like the idea of newbies logging in and thinking where is everyone? Even at the war camps if it wasn't peak hours there was nothing to do there either.
All and all, I am not sure this prolonged HRPT was better then just a regular HRPT. I would have just as soon preferred the good ole marching in and attacking to this prolonged HRPT but that's just me. There was a good sense of realism at times because of the way that this HRPT was set up and alot of good experiences but I just personally don't like how much the playerbase was sucked up during it or the choppy, spammy bits.
Again, with no contrariness directed at Bebop, I wanted to chime in and say this was not my experience. I came back to arm and made a pc specifically because of the HRPT. I ended up playing in Nak, Luirs and Tuluk since then (not with the same pc) I had completely the opposite experience in all three places. I had tons to do and plenty of interaction. There may not have been as many people in each of these places as there might otherwise be, but there were people and there was stuff going on. In fact the only think I haven't seen much of in the cities, in the time I've been back, is Templars who I suppose were all at the front. I'm not belittling Bebop's experience. I just wanted to point out that I don't think it was universal. But maybe I was just very lucky.
I really loved that the hrpt wasn't something that was packed into a few hours that was easy to miss and soon over. Again, it's what drew me back. And I don't think it's a complete coincedence that so many old players have been returning since the war began.
Again, I recognize this might not be universal, but this was my experience. I tend not to be extraordinary.
Quote from: "Vynestra"
Lastly, one of my characters signed up to be 'ho-ed out and never once was she 'ho-ed'! I made a perfectly fine f-me character and she didnt do anything except get stuck out on the field of battle looking clue-less and scared. What is up with that? There needs to be more whoring and "sudden acts of passion" in the game. Are the Allanaki Nobles, Templars, Warriors, all gay? Is that too much IC information?
Oops! :D
You should have said something to your IG pimp.
Oh, on the topic of tight lipped. I'm a little frustrated not to find anything on the end of the war on some ic boards. Those who were there when the troops returned might consider making a quick post or two.
I do think it is worth reiterating Halaster's point. The HRPT ended less than 24 hours ago. Give it a little time, and I think the information will spread - posts will be made, etc. This isn't the modern world where we have real time reporting on events. Even with psionics, it will take information some time to get spread around.
Quote from: "Barzalene"Quoted the above for context, as this thought is not directed specifically toward Halaster or Lizzie. One of the coolest things about Arm, is not knowing the whole story, dying, and later with a new pc who was never meant to have any connection to your dead pc the story continues to unfold only you see it from a whole new perspective. I love that it's not a finte find out everything at once experience.
Pardon? Neither Lizzie nor myself made any reference to knowing everything. We made a reference to knowing absolutely nothing about the situation.
Quote from: "Dre"There are of course some exception and that said I've alway found it funny alot of the time the only PCs that know the truth of what actually happened and why, are dead. Its funny listening to someone tell what happened and OOCly laughing to yourself and saying if they only knew.
You realize that some of us deliberately avoid ooc contact because we're not supposed to be spreading information around like that, right? This is a big part of the problem as to why information isn't being disseminated. Once ooc curiosity is sated, the ic curiosity mysteriously vanishes. The same goes with ooc vs. ic candor, unfortunately. It's one thing for secrets to be passed around, but if this was a major world event, it should not be secret in the slightest. If this event makes it onto the timeline and I couldn't find out about it as a player character in game, then it's a failure of we as players to accurately push information realistically in the world around us.
Some things can certainly stay secret, but some things cannot. That simply is the way of greater society.
Quote from: "Intrepid"
Quote from: "Dre"There are of course some exception and that said I've alway found it funny alot of the time the only PCs that know the truth of what actually happened and why, are dead. Its funny listening to someone tell what happened and OOCly laughing to yourself and saying if they only knew.
You realize that some of us deliberately avoid ooc contact because we're not supposed to be spreading information around like that, right? This is a big part of the problem as to why information isn't being disseminated. Once ooc curiosity is sated, the ic curiosity mysteriously vanishes. The same goes with ooc vs. ic candor, unfortunately. It's one thing for secrets to be passed around, but if this was a major world event, it should not be secret in the slightest. If this event makes it onto the timeline and I couldn't find out about it as a player character in game, then it's a failure of we as players to accurately push information realistically in the world around us.
Some things can certainly stay secret, but some things cannot. That simply is the way of greater society.
I think you misunderstood. What i am referring to is having actually had a PC there, having gone through the plot yourself, ICly having known the truth. In my case dying and then hearing the story through someone else inaccurately with the new PC...and laughing to myself oocly and in private because i know what happened and no it in no way influences my IC actions. I Know the Rules.
I've never shared OOC info, i don't talk to -any- of you though any OOC method beyond GDB even then don't always log in. I don't even know the IRC channel or will ever want to log in to chat. Never even talked to a helper. When i was first starting to play Arm i read a post by AC on the subject took it to heart, and i've never regretted it.
I have a another GDB name these days i use for clans and really wished others did the game, i am sure some do though, i -hate- knowing who it is that is playing X character and being able to relate them to....certain posts. Its never effected my role playing or actions but still sucks to know that.
Sorry for the derailment.
The good points have already been brought up a hundred times - staff effort, extended war, fun battles and so on. I won't waste space with that.
But some bad points were indeed there, and they were not seen by everybody, but they were a big let-down for me.
• People who can't play at the golden hours of 8-12pm US time saw next to nothing, despite being in the middle of the war. There might have been a few minor event for the off peak players, but I must have missed them. I would often stand around for as much as 6-7 hours in a row with squat to do and only a couple (or none at all) in the camp. I accumulated 4 days played during the HRPT, I think I was online quite a lot, and I think I had less than 5 hours of accumulated fun, with the rest being standing guard in front of an empty camp watching the room echos. Very disappointing for me, especially because it was neither possible nor in-character for my PC to leave the war.
• This war seemed to be about the leaders. When there wasn't any immediate action (read: a fight or a moving of the camp) I felt that we, the grunts, were ignored. I tried doing the "is there anything I can do?" and was either told no, or assigned something as exciting as going into the corral and making sure all 70 kanks were resting. It seemed to me that when the leaders weren't around people were just waiting, doing nothing, and I saw a lot of the "has entered Zalanthas;looks around for a bit, notices no templars or sergeants;has left Zalanthas" from other people. I felt like the annoying little brother who was brought along because the big boys had been told to, and was then parked somewhere while they had fun, and occasionally brought along to carry their stuff. To further prove my point that it was all about the leaders: in the Allanaki camp, there was a Command Tent, a House Tor tent, another tent for leadership, a tent for the mages, a wagon for other important people... and nothing at all, what-so-ever, for the TWO THOUSAND soldiers. Not a barracks tent, not a row of cots, nothing.
• Some of the things that could have made for some interesting non-battle RP seemed to be ignored. Such things as food/water supply management became a "uh, ask a mage to make you some water" thing, which I found a little lame as a way to keep your 2000-man army healthy. There were no supply lines, no armor repair (save for one PC, who was ignored), nothing much at all to do in-between the patrols and battles.
• There was nothing besides some board messages for the city people. I can't bother going into detail about this, it's getting old.
Quote from: "Coat of Arms"• Some of the things that could have made for some interesting non-battle RP seemed to be ignored. Such things as food/water supply management became a "uh, ask a mage to make you some water" thing, which I found a little lame as a way to keep your 2000-man army healthy. There were no supply lines, no armor repair (save for one PC, who was ignored), nothing much at all to do in-between the patrols and battles.
Just popping in quickly to make a correction about this:
Both sides had supply lines. The handful of Vivaduans were
not keeping the 2000 man army healthy (alone), and there were several trips, negotiations, and purchases to restock arms and armor during the event.
That said, I think having a more dynamic and quantifiable system of keeping track of supplies and food would be way cool...but possibly incredibly complicated. I -think- what you're asking for is something which could effect PCs on a day-to-day basis...but I think the best thing for that would be to actually code weapon, clothing, and armor degredation, food rotting, etc.
That way, Private Grunt actually has to worry about his sword breaking down over time, and sandstorms wearing holes in his cloak.
Quote from: "Coat of Arms"Some of the things that could have made for some interesting non-battle RP seemed to be ignored. Such things as food/water supply management became a "uh, ask a mage to make you some water" thing, which I found a little lame as a way to keep your 2000-man army healthy. There were no supply lines, no armor repair (save for one PC, who was ignored), nothing much at all to do in-between the patrols and battles.
I know. As one of the water mages I felt bad because without water camp activity soon would stop. But I couldn't be on all of the time and the containers were often inadequate to bridge the gap. They had the annoying habit of disappearing each time the game rebooted too. If only there were a big permanent container people people would have been left dependent moment to moment.
Does anyone else find that there might be serious cultural and social repercussion for this war in both cities? Specifically the fact that either of the cities omnipotent gods decided to just let it all happen?
-RM
I don't think either city considers their god omnipotent... just very very potent. If they were omnipotent, why would the other city still exist?
The idea that god is all-powerful and all-knowing isn't a feature of all religions.
Besides, why would it be a problem that their god "let" it happen? Their side won, afterall.
Quote from: "Marauder Moe"I don't think either city considers their god omnipotent... just very very potent. If they were omnipotent, why would the other city still exist?
The idea that god is all-powerful and all-knowing isn't a feature of all religions.
Besides, why would it be a problem that their god "let" it happen? Their side won, afterall.
I dunno, just pointing it out. I guess it doesn't matter.
Quote from: "RunningMountain"Quote from: "Marauder Moe"I don't think either city considers their god omnipotent... just very very potent. If they were omnipotent, why would the other city still exist?
The idea that god is all-powerful and all-knowing isn't a feature of all religions.
Besides, why would it be a problem that their god "let" it happen? Their side won, afterall.
I dunno, just pointing it out. I guess it doesn't matter.
Obviously it was a test of their strength from their Gods themselves.
Maybe the conflict wasn't large enough for either god-king to care about. This was armies of about 2000 people fighting in the desert, not the Dragon assaulting Tuluk or the dwarves seiging Allanak for a year. I don't think Muk/Tek care enough about about their very mortal followers to get involved in every single dinky little war that they fight.
And on an OOC note, nothing would probably spoil the event more for PCs involved than to have a superpowerful sorceror-king show up and steal the show. If you want a scripted plot event where that happens, fine, but otherwise I wouldn't bring the supernatural superbeings into play in what is otherwise supposed to be an event decided by player actions.
I am not really sure if I am right at the numbers but I thought each city had like 5000 soldiers in total. So I thought, 2000 of them going to war is actually something -BIG-.
Of course, if I am close in numbers that is.
I just want to throw a vote in with some others, I think the PC leaders needed to do just a little bit more. But, then again you can't blame just waiting around on the PC leaders. Not everyone has the same schedule and will be on for everything.
But I would like to add, A certain camp ( I won't say which but you can guess), turned to going on patrols just to kill a raptor or two to pass time. And...There was a -lot- of standing around at low key times.
The only problem I saw with the HRPT itself was the fact that everyone was confined to camp, and were under strict orders not to go anywhere without a leader...But rarely was their a leader about. Maybe next time there would be something too having more PC leaders...?
Other than that, I thought this was great time. My only regret is I probably won't see the playerbase at up to 60 people everynight :(
I agree with a lot of the ideas we've heard about different things that could have happened but didn't. Such as more detailed resource management (how much water/food/armor/etc is in the camp, how much they need, supply lines, actually getting it, etc.) would have been really neat. So why didn't it happen?
One thing we've come to realize as staff was that there was a bit of disorganization on our end (95% because of ME) and so a lot of staff didn't actually help out with the HRPT because they weren't sure what to do, or how to go about it. Basically, I had hoped and expected other staff to do things, but they didn't - again, my fault not theirs.
So, halfway through it I realized there was so much more like this that could be done, but I was far too busy to do it all, and so had to just let it slide. We've learned from this, as staff, and have already thought of how to correct it the next time.
Quote from: "Intrepid"
This is a big part of the problem as to why information isn't being disseminated. Once ooc curiosity is sated, the ic curiosity mysteriously vanishes.
This is so true. To this day there are still plenty of people who spread knowledge OOC'ly through IM and other methods - and so there's no reason for them to find out IC because they're no longer curious. Yet another reason to stop talking OOC.
A simple solution to the leadership problem would be more delegation. Mundance PC leaders exist for a reason, use them! Whole armies shouldn't be reporting directly to templars and nobles, but to their delegated subordinates, the lieutenants, captains, sergeants and such.
Quote from: "jstorrie"A simple solution to the leadership problem would be more delegation. Mundance PC leaders exist for a reason, use them! Whole armies shouldn't be reporting directly to templars and nobles, but to their delegated subordinates, the lieutenants, captains, sergeants and such.
The none templar PC leader was one of the first to die at the northern camp. :cry:
While I didn't make a character until the whole thing ended I guess this is what I think about it so far.
I think having a certain time period for things to happen. Like mini-rpts within the whole hrpt itself would definitely help with organizing something along the scope of a long, drawn-out (war?) Setting times is not a bad thing in my opinion, while it may seem like it's pre-ordained, I think having staff there to simply facilitate and respond to wishes of the PC leaders is all you need. If you think about it, the armies should be lead by PCs, because there are PCs about that are powerful enough to command such. Then those PCs should already have had their leaders in order. If they don't, then that's just shitty for them because if they are in control of that army, they need officers to help control it. So the main role of the imms at 9 pm EST on the fifth week of the HRPT would be basically to login and see what the two PC army-leaders decide they are going to do and go from there with echoes, and basic support. This way the PCs have control to an extend and so do the staff involved.
I still don't get what/why all this happened, it's definitely not common knowledge, and a southern commoner pc would be thinking what right about now? Hmm. They went into the desert and killed a bunch of northerners I guess? Then came back and said they won. Well what did we win? Not pride.
I think the emphasis laid on having an entire cities population believe every little thing some guy in a special robe say can only be used so often. Considering the poverty rate alone in Allanak, and tuluk, maybe the effects of the war can continue on in the cities themselves. Such as famine, lack of farmers, agricultural decline, mobs forming on the streets, etc. The iron-fisted rule of the city(s) may have slipped while half the army was away at playing war for a few plants and cactus in a desert. I know that's how I'd feel about it if I was a starving rinthi'. Or a starving commoner for that matter.
And the politic shifts would be even worse in allanak, the houses lend all this support for the army and apparently have nothing to show for it, no loot, no supplies, no territories gained. And some of them got their ranks decimated supposedly?
While I bet Halaster and any others are exhausted from such a long RPT, just saying it's suddenly over is a bit disheartening when realistically the repercussions and negative effects that are very probable have yet to be thought about. I bet this was a huge learning experience for everyone however. It would be huge fun and a well-earned treat for those who didn't go to the frontlines to see the full, nasty, and very realistic effects that a long drawn out war can have on a city, culture, and civilization in general. War destroys civilizations, it breaks them apart.
Mutiny and rebellions shouldn't be uncommon after such a long, pointless bloodbath for two cities.
That's all I think for now.
I'm going to say that the aftermath looks mighty sweet already :)
Stick to the topic please.
I felt like it dragged on at times, but overall, it was amazing!
The way it happened: a list of objectives was given to the PC leader of the entire operation. It was up to that leader to complete said goals. But the way it ended up working out, 95% of non-noble PCs were completely in the dark the entire time.
What I'd like to see: I'd like to see similar lists of goals made up for the "mundane" PCs. So in the southern camp, for instance, the Borsail Sergeant, the Militia Sergeant, the Tor sergeant, and the head Oashi magus all have their own sets of staff-created goals that they can work on with their troops and that have a visible impact.
Because in all honesty, if you weren't a noble in this thing your entire role was often limited to "hold this dune" or "follow this noble."
In modern war, the grunts don't know anything. Why should it be any different on Zalanthas?
When I was in Iraq, our company commander wouldn't be briefed about a mission until about 5-6 hours before it was set to run. Platoon commanders and platoon sergeants were briefed about an hour later. By the time the final word came down the chain of command, we grunts only had about 2 hours to actually get ready to go.
As far as camp life goes, complete boredom -is- the norm. I'd say about 30% of my time in Iraq was spent actually doing "war-related" things: cleaning weapons, putting armor on HMMWV's, unpacking ammo, going out on missions, etc. The other 70% of the time, I was sleeping, lifting weights, or watching movies (until the last 2 weeks, when we were on an Army base with an internet connection, and I could actually log into Arm for the first time in 7 months, woo!). So, it might seem like a drag...but that's just how war is. Hell, after 6 months, even going out on missions was a drag--you didn't get any adrenaline rush until people actually started shooting at you.
I personally didn't experience any of the camp life during the war (although I -was- involved with -many- of the mini-plots that people are complaining supposedly didn't occur), but from what I'm hearing, it doesn't seem like it was a terribly unrealistic experience. If you're a mere pawn, the only word you're going to get is "march here," "march there," and "unpack your gear and settle down, it's gonna be awhile."
Personally, I think all the camp-bound persons should've come prepared. In Iraq, laptops and portable DVD players were probably the only things that kept most of us sane...I watched more movies and TV serials in 7 months than I had during the rest of my life combined. On Zalanthas...bring the Kruth cards, the dice, the izdari sets...blow every last coin you have on spice or liquor, because where you're going, you won't -need- the coins, and you'll probably die with them in the bank, anyway. Sure, these games aren't entertaining by themselves, but they provide a backdrop for you to shoot the breeze with your fellow soldiers.
Although I understood the reasoning behind some of the commands at the Camp, I think that the strictness really took a lot of enjoyment out of the game for the players. Maybe those in charge could think about that before issuing orders that take the whores back home and the dice and cards out of soldiers' pockets.
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"Maybe those in charge could think about that before issuing orders that take the whores back home and the dice and cards out of soldiers' pockets.
Agreed.
QuoteIn modern war, the grunts don't know anything. Why should it be any different on Zalanthas?
Because we play to have fun, and it's not a whole lot of fun to stand in one place doing nothing for many hours, and even less fun when you don't know why you're doing it.
QuoteAs far as camp life goes, complete boredom -is- the norm.
Basically mirroring Hymen's comment in response to a different quote. I don't play the game to be bored through my character's eyes. I don't think anyone does. If we were going with complete realism, most of our characters should live out their lives working inside the city doing something simple and boring and never change jobs or encounter real political/physical danger. If that was the game, I think only a very sparse few would still play.
HymWen!
I think the analogy or whatever the word for it is that someone else put up about the war camp being 90% boredom and 10% sheer terror is about perfect really. Maybe 80/20 but not really much more.
While I understand that means a lot of latrine digging, pot scrubbing, gear checking, kank 'entertaining' or whatever.. it makes the action more 'realistically' spaced out and much more fun.
The problem was that the charactors that I did have in the war camps, I got no orders besides "Stay outside the camp and watch in all directions", and yeah that was my job 99% of the time :roll: . Ah well I like the whole war idea, and I already gave my suggestions on a Supply Line.
There were 2 certain PC's who made my time at the camp enjoyable regardless that I saw no action.
I don't think zalanthas is modern war. Is it? War was way different in roman times. If you're going to compare it at all compare war from back then.
I don't want to leave this thread open forever, so if you haven't posted your feedback yet, do so soon! I plan to close this by mid-week.
All I have left to say is that I'm also really looking forward to a year or so from now when logs of the war can be posted in the player logs section. One thing that really struck me and remained a big theme was how DIFFERENT Allanak and Tuluk are. I'd like to see what life on the other side was like.
EDIT: staff and players might want to snip a few logs for this purpose now, while memory is still fresh. :wink:
Quote from: "Halaster"So, halfway through it I realized there was so much more like this that could be done, but I was far too busy to do it all, and so had to just let it slide. We've learned from this, as staff, and have already thought of how to correct it the next time.
Like you mentioned previously, it was an experiment. There is room for a wide margin of error for something like this. ;)
Should be a way for conscripts to spar, and maybe some training sessions.
I think the armies should be coded "clans" separate from the city-state militias. Since characters can be codedly members of more than one clan, this would not be a problem. It would help with the "order followers attack all" command, it could be used to make sure that spies actually have to either a) sneak into the camp, or b) join the opposing army.
If the camps were coded this way, then agressive acts, such as shooting arrows into the opposing camp, would be met by NPC action. This is a lot better than a bunch of NPCs watching dumbly for code reasons (lack of PC leaders online).
Morrolan
I haven't seen this mentioned, but I wonder if a GDB forum each for the two parties wouldn't help for announcing excursions unworthy of an IC board post.
I felt people knew too much about what the war was over(won't say) felt only maybe higher ups and people close to them should have known.
Waiting to do things was also a problem, on both sides imho. was fun but think maybe set up times for big events so could know oh now be a good time to do something.
The first day of sitting and waiting kinda sucked, was expecting something to happen like normal HRPT. Stayed up later than wanted, prehaps be told earlier hey going to be a long event.
For nak side,
When asked where get food and water, was told talk to the magickers? Like magickers could stock a camp and keep it alive seemed unrealistic. This also affected play times i think that way avoid complications.
Overall I liked the entire event, was long and seemed more realistic then one giant battle. Just some tweaks and think be alright. I can also understand how people who were not involved felt, not getting to interact.
Amish Overlord 8)
Thanks for the feedback everyone.