I think it would be much harder for someone to be disarmed with both of their hands on a weapon or wielding a heavy two-handed weapon.
Just my two sids,
What do you think?
Probably. Idea it.
It certainly stands to reason. Do you know if it doesn't currently?
Why yes, you would think so, would you? How do you know it isn't already this way?
Quote from: "Dalmeth"It certainly stands to reason. Do you know if it doesn't currently?
Actually, I do not know, but it isn't in the helpfile as a note. So, I just brought it to attention. Though, I'd rather not discuss game mechanics.
Disarm helpfile updated. Note that the helpfiles don't cover every single aspect of the code. I'm not trying to discourage thoughts such as this, but realize most of the time we'll say 'How do you know it isn't already this way?' if it is or isn't already this way.
Quote from: "Morgenes"Disarm helpfile updated. Note that the helpfiles don't cover every single aspect of the code. I'm not trying to discourage thoughts such as this, but realize most of the time we'll say 'How do you know it isn't already this way?' if it is or isn't already this way.
That is very understandable, Morgenes. Personally, the game is much more enjoyable when you learn the little coded secrets.
Yeah, I've always assumed this was already in place.
Remember- nothing says you can't tell the recruits shit that ain't true!
Quote from: "Yokunama"That is very understandable, Morgenes. Personally, the game is much more enjoyable when you learn the little coded secrets.
This does kind of depend on whether the code reflects realism or not. When something that ICly you'd expect to be the case is not reflected in the code, it's jarring to RP around. A further layer of confusion is added when things that used to not be considered in the code get added in later and no-one notices. I occasionally find myself considering egregious sins of the code I'm aware of from the past and wondering if they've been fixed yet. Frequently the risk to my character in finding out if they haven't wouldn't be worth it even if it made sense to steer my RP in such a direction.
I'm all for helpfiles explicitly stating apparently common-sense things about the code, because using your common sense with the code can let you down. Better still would be if the helpfiles plainly acknowledged code behaviour contrary to IC expectations, however I can see it being easier to list what you do take account of than what you don't. (Example: I know for certain that three years ago or so the subdue code was horridly broken from a realism perspective, and even an underweight elf could break through the guard of a heavier, stronger warrior, whom he could neither hurt with a weapon nor touch with his bare hands, to grapple with him. I do not know if this has changed.)
Of my eight longest-lived characters, one died from a code issue that made no sense IC, two died from code bugs that could be explained away IC, and one died to an unexpected and undocumented code interaction. This may explain my biases towards explicit documentation. Nobody likes to lose a character they've spent a lot of time on, and this is redoubled when it's lost to a sucky code problem. If, to pick the current topic as an example, it were much more possible to easily disarm people with two-handed weapons than common sense would dictate, not knowing this could lead someone else to end up losing a long-lived character to a cheap death. Knowing whether or not this is the case is a good thing, not a bad thing. "Mystery" in the code is fine right up until the code departs from reality and you lose your character over it.
As a counter-argument, however, a fighter using both hands on a weapon may be more likely to overextend himself or throw his own balance off, whereas a person using one hand may keep a lighter grip (which, paradoxically, is often better than a tight grip for keeping someone from batting something out of your palm!)
Quote from: "jstorrie"As a counter-argument, however, a fighter using both hands on a weapon may be more likely to overextend himself or throw his own balance off, whereas a person using one hand may keep a lighter grip (which, paradoxically, is often better than a tight grip for keeping someone from batting something out of your palm!)
Maybe, but I doubt it. You can also say that holding a weapon two-handed keeps your weight centered. Lastly, I think, no matter how you grip it, two hands are better than one for holding on to something.
QuoteAs a counter-argument, however, a fighter using both hands on a weapon may be more likely to overextend himself or throw his own balance off, whereas a person using one hand may keep a lighter grip
I think that's where skill level comes into play.
Quote from: "help two handed"It is somewhat easier to parry using a two-handed weapon.
What is this compared to?
Quote from: "help two handed"The frequency of attacking with a two-handed weapon is greater, as it is easier to recover from a two-handed attack than other styles of combat.
I really do not see this statement true.
If you ask me, I personally see this as one of the worse styles of combat. Guess that is a reason that it is rarely used.
Quote from: "Yokunama"Quote from: "help two handed"It is somewhat easier to parry using a two-handed weapon.
What is this compared to?
Quote from: "help two handed"The frequency of attacking with a two-handed weapon is greater, as it is easier to recover from a two-handed attack than other styles of combat.
I really do not see this statement true.
If you ask me, I personally see this as one of the worse styles of combat. Guess that is a reason that it is rarely used.
Two-handed is good if you can't hit something or your blows can't get through.
Dual wield is good if you need to deal a lot of damage and fast.
Shield use is good if you need to keep up a strong defense.
In reality, shield use and two-handed were the most used styles. I've never actually heard of people dual-wielding in history, with the exception of in dueling or whatever other rare thing would come up.
Most fights in Zalanthas are one on one, the object is to kill the opponent before he can touch you. However, hunters should probably use a shield and spear. Anything else is borderline weird.
And remember, Zalanthas is Zalanthas and Earth is Earth. Fighting styles developed differently. People fought the way they did on Earth because there were tremendous foot battles and it called for that equipment. People fight on Zalanthas like they do because the environment/conditions call for that.
Quote from: "Yokunama"Quote from: "help two handed"It is somewhat easier to parry using a two-handed weapon.
What is this compared to?
As compared to using a one-handed. ;)
Quote from: "Yokunama"Quote from: "help two handed"The frequency of attacking with a two-handed weapon is greater, as it is easier to recover from a two-handed attack than other styles of combat.
I really do not see this statement true.
If you ask me, I personally see this as one of the worse styles of combat. Guess that is a reason that it is rarely used.
I was skeptical too. But, out of desperation, I tried out using a two-handed with a half-giant ranger I had. She was getting beat up while dual-wielding so bad I was desperate to find some kind of defense, short of using a shield so I thought I'd try out a two-hander for the parry. It really was an improvement for that and it seemed to me that she also hit a bit more, too, though I didn't really do any analysis on it.
Quote from: "Medena"Quote from: "Yokunama"Quote from: "help two handed"It is somewhat easier to parry using a two-handed weapon.
What is this compared to?
As compared to using a one-handed. ;)
I also had shield in my mind too. :P
I find you have a greater luck factor with two-handed. As a newb, you can get a few great hits with a mediocre weapon from time to time. That added on to the fact armor is less of a concern, I'm surprisd people who hunt the tougher animals don't use it more.
Two-handed can be wicked. It just takes time and patience to get good at like anything else.
Just ask the people I beat the shit out of with it.. :P
Quote from: "Dalmeth"That added on to the fact armor is less of a concern, I'm surprisd people who hunt the tougher animals don't use it more.
Don't be surprised. The style really isn't that great. Thats why people do not use it much.
Quote from: "Delirium"Two-handed can be wicked. It just takes time and patience to get good at like anything else.
My character has been trying the style out for some time. Recently, I found out that my character performs much better with other styles, besides the one he/she was training.
I've seen people MAIM stuff when two-handing that they couldn't while dual-wielding, solo-wielding or sword-and-shielding.
The style is useful even if you haven't seen the benefit. Trust those of us that have seen the results.
My conclusions about the styles:
one handed - bad idea always, worst defense and worst offense.
shield - best defense, lowest offense.
dual wield - middle ground
two handed - least defense of the three, best offense
Best choice: the one that fits your character.That said for benefit of those who skim long posts, here's all my thought processes for people who like long posts:
from the helpfiles, all comparisons made to one handed.
one handed - base comparison, no skill needed to perform at maximum.
dual wield - better defense, more hits, less power in offhand
shield - best defense, equal power
two handed - better defense, more hits, more power
The trick is how two handed compares to dual wield.
dual wield is two hits per tick, but one of those is rather weak.
Two handed gives you one hit per tick, but ticks more often.
Logically, and in real life, an offhanded weapon is GREAT for helping to parry with, while a two handed weapon is more of a "defense via offense" type of thing.
So I'm inclined to assume that dual wield offers more total defense than two handed, but a bit less offense than two handed.
I see dual wield is a middle ground between the high defense low offense of a shield, and the somewhat presumed low defense/ high offense of two handed.
And while I say two handed is low defense, it's still higher defense than one handed . . . WITH TRAINING.
Keep in mind that one handed performs at maxium all the time. Where as you won't see the defense benefits of the others immediately.
in conclusion:
choose a style THAT FITS YOUR CHARACTER.
If he's got great stamina and can take a few hits and keep on ticking, well, then you don't need to sweat defense as much as some one who's more quick and frail. They might be better off with a small shield or dual wielding.
And yea, if you're hunting, a spear and shield is always perfectly in character.
All the styles are balanced, they don't have the same traits, but the traits balance.
*disclaimer: keep in mind that different weapons will be more and less suited to defense and attack. It's damn impossible to compare one character to another, I don't suggest trying. it's not what this game is about.
I think the rarity of two-handed has a couple reasons besides how effective it is or isn't.
1. It is difficult to ride and hold a two handed weapon at the same time. In days of yore people didn't wield their weapons constantly, but due to game mechanics it is usually considered foolish to be unarmed any time you are in a lawless area, especially if you are riding. If the weapon is small enough you can ep it, and then hit "change hands ep etwo" when you actually get into combat, but part of the fun of the two handed style is using gigantic weapons that you couldn't use with just one hand. Switching from a one handed weapon to a two handed weapon during combat would be too dangerous, because for a moment between "sheath weapon" and "draw weapon" you will be unarmed.
2. {edits} There is a (probably mistaken) OOC belief that certain skills will branch off of one but not off of the other for some classes.
Historically two-handed has been a popular and effective style, and I like the look of it.
AC
Personally, I have no reason to think the parry chances for dual wield and two-handed are any different.
As an aside, I think it's pretty crappy that anyone would email anyone about skill branches.
I once had a half-elven ranger. Decent agility. He used a spear, two-handed.
For every single attack his opponent got in, he would get about four or six. Sure, not all of them hit... but still, that's pretty overwhelming.
Two-handed is fine as is.
I like to try out two-handed now and again, it's still a fairly new skill though..so it's going to draw a lot of questions..
Hot Dancer