Okay, I wanted to be careful how I worded all of this because I don't want this to come off as whiny, or "typical" or pissy. But I have an issue with this and I don't communicate with many of you outside of the GDB, but there are a select few I do and it would seem I'm not alone on the issue. So I don't think it's just me.
Sexism is not supposed to be in game in Armageddon. And I would prefer it not to be on the GDB personally, but hey we live in the real world and sexism still exists. Let me snap in a quick note - I don't want this thread to become about real life sexism because I want this discussion to be non-flammatory, real, and productive to the GAME and maybe the Arm community. If you want to start a post about real life sexism as a whole post it in the OOC Chatter or something but this is not what this thread is about.
Now we can debate whether sexism is in game, and I know it is not encountered with every characters, it's not. Also there are many IG factors that have to be taken into consideration but I will try to list things that are rather blatant, at least in my eyes. But the point is mainly that it should not exist at all. Let me give you some examples of what I have experienced in game and somewhat in the community as a whole.
----"I don't have time for your woman chatter." The character this was told to was a ranger, combat character that could kill a decent amount of creatures, rugged whatever. Not catty character etc etc. The point is despite her IG equality to a man she was basically told not to chatter like a woman. I don't find this appropriate because it's a comment I feel puts women under thumb. There is no difference between man and woman IG - so While: "I don't have time for your chatter." Would have been appropriate, I don't think trying to differentiate between women's chatter and men's chatter is. Not a big deal right? But it's the underlying idea. As for "such and such will make a man out of you." The way I see it when I hear this in game is that there is no social difference between men and women so man should not be trying to achieve some higher nobility idealism of MANHOOD! In Zalanthas what makes you a man is your penis, or at least the way I see it. You don't see women walking around saying this will make a WOMAN out of you. I have played in merc groups like the Byn where my character is sensible in combat, intelligent and going along for the ride and it irks the crap out of me to have someone baby me by saying things like "Ladies first." Or the unit will make a man out of you! Then what will the unit make out of a woman? Women can play rugged characters too. I know this is supported by the IMMs I have seen IMM ran female leaders and female NPCs in combat training centers, but when playing with others is when I'm experiencing this. Once again, not such a big deal - but it's the underlying idea and it's real life ideals of "what a man is" crossing over into Zalanthas. If you want to play a rugged "manly man" I've got no qualms with that, play whatever you want - but I would just hope people would be more conscious of the differences they are placing between men and women when there should be done in Zalanthas other then variation in their genitals - to be blunt.
----"Quirri quarrels" Someone coined this to basically substitute for a cat fight. Basically undermining women fighting on Armageddon. While this fight that I experienced may have been totally a legitimate fight, maybe something dark and underlying in death and deception a potential very indepth plot I feel it was undermined by someone labeling it off as "a cat fight." Once again - frustrating and I don't think it's appropriate. That's a real world term used to refer to what some may see as "typical petty woman behavior" and I'm sad to see it carry over into Zalanthas.
----"F-Me PCs" While I think that Sanvean covered this in the last thread, so "tastefully" dedicated to F-me PCs, I still think that
mindset is still there with our players. (Which by the way, if this wasn't a problem that thread would have never even existed) Just because someone looks good because they don't want to play a character maimed by scars doesn't mean that you should not be wary of them or immediately have an OOC feeling that they are incapable of being a respected character even in combat prowess. And I also feel that this term is mostly targeted towards women even though there are plenty of men that play that perfect, rugged Fabio so and so's. I know that mindset is still there because even when I play combat oriented women, or at least women that can handle a blade somewhat, I still have man offering to treat me like a fluffy little girl. While I'm not saying mates shouldn't be protective of their women or whatever, I still find it frustrating when I'm wearing sheaths and a scimitar over my back and I have some man ask me if he needs to accompany me around the city while I'm in the north talking to a southron that may or may not be suspicious. Despite the visibility of her weapons it is assumed because she is a women she might be able to handle herself or her own affairs? And this isn't the only time I've seen this happen.
----Combat oriented women. They exist, and so many times I have seen this with my characters, that despite playing my character stoically that can keep to herself and take care of herself combat wise (someone who is NOT petty in the last). If I am an underling and any kind of concern or clash with another underling occurs my concerns however real and legitimate they maybe are dismissed in some kind of peer mediation or whatever and basically ignored. I have left two clans now because of this. It basically goes something like this.
QuoteFemale Combat Character - There's a real military problem here, I know what I'm saying sir, because I have X and Y experience.
Other Character - I don't like her for so and so reasons.
Leader Character - Alright let's do peer mediation for you two.
Female Combat Character - But there's really a threat that I think we should discuss privately.
Leader Character - Oh you two with your quirri quarrels now I want you two to stop fighting and just go do your jobs.
Female Combat Character - But sir, there's REALLY a threat that you should know about. My experience...
Leader Character- I DON'T WANT TO HEAR ONE MORE WORD I HAVE THINGS TO DO, NOW BE OFF.
Male Combat Character - There's a real military problem here, I know what I'm saying sir, because I have X and Y experience.
Other Character - I don't like him for so and so reasons. But I expect a man to act stoic and such so I guess it's really not as big a deal as when that female combat character snubbed me how dare she.
Leader Character - Alright Male Combat Character, let's go sit down and talk about what you have to say so I can take it seriously and act on it. And then maybe I will deal with this quarrel between you and Other Character if it is necessary.
Male Combat Character - Yes sir.
Leader Character - You are so stoic and take your job so seriously, I really respect you.
Male Combat Character - Just doing my job, sir. My father taught me what it meant to be a man I don't have time for petty woman chatter, squabbles.
Female Combat Character (peeking her head in the door) But I can't help it that the Other Character was being petty, I was going to relay the same information and ...
Leader Character: GET OUT OF HERE, I TOLD YOU I'VE HAD ENOUGH WITH THIS QUARRELING I'M TALKING TO THE MALE COMBAT CHARACTER.
Female Combat Character - But I was just trying to relay the information privately I didn't want to relay it in front of the Other Character because that would not be professional it didn't have anything to do with her pettiness I can't help that she started it and...
Leader Character - YOU ARE BOTH WOMEN FIGHTING THEREFORE WHAT YOU SAY MUST BE NOT ME LEGITIMATE I DON'T WANT TO HEAR ONE MORE WORD ABOUT OTHER CHARACTER!
Female Combat Character - But I only mentioned her to explain...
Leader Character - NO OBVIOUSLY YOU MUST BE JUST TRYING TO GET HER IN TROUBLE AND WHAT YOU SAY HAS NO REAL MILITARISTIC VALUE EVEN THOUGH I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU WERE GOING TO SAY NOW GO!
Male Combat Character (sitting back in his chair with an understanding smile) Women and their quirri quarrels...
Okay so maybe that's a little exaggerated but that's the gist of it. And I've experience two scenarios which that little scene was based off of. Of course there are so many IG factors that it's not logical to go make a complaint every time I think or feel or see something like this happen. It has to start with the players that make up the world so basically I am asking that people please check their attitudes towards woman at the Zalanthan door.
I feel that is much harder for a women to gain a military standing in game and when she does to be taken seriously in that standing. There have been some great women PC leaders and I know the ratio as far as players, there are less woman which ultimately means less woman in leadership, I know there are IC and OOC factors I know that. But still I think when a female PC does come along that wants to be taken seriously, despite her efforts it is difficult to compete for a position against a male simply because she is a female. In not all scenarios but some scenarios.
----"Jihea and Lirathu" Now I don't mean to make waves but I have a problem with the fact that the dainty women in white - I won't try to be to specific about things are all women and the warrior Jihea men that possibly can come through the military House Lykase and train bad ass soldiers are all men. Not that the Lirathu Order Faithfuls can't be terrifying I just find it frustrating that they all must be women and all the Jihea must be men. Recently there was a Jihea position open and I didn't even want to app for it because I would have to play a male. While as a woman I maybe able to play a Jihea I still would have to play a male character, and I really don't like playing males. Plus it closes the door to having a variety of characters in either Order. I also just wonder why the Jihea males are warriors and the Lirathu order are all women in pallid silks that are not into physical prowess.
Many leaders in Zalanthas: Male.
Muk and Tek - Male
This was supposed to be SAND Lord of Red Storm :) - Male
CENSORED - Male
Luirs - Male
I know the Blackwing tribe made blackwing but I'm pretty sure the leader is also male.
Now I am not trying to blame anyone or the men more than the women. Because I'm not, I've had just as much frustration playing stoic women where other prissy women start in etc etc. What I would just like to do is make people aware that I feel like there is still a hefty amount of sexism in game. I haven't encountered this with every character or all of the time, and it's certainly not something backed up by code or by the IMMs. But I -am- encountering it regularly. Sure I can try to make some badass woman that makes waves IG and it HAS happened, and making waves IG is difficult for anyone to do man or woman. My point is this - there IS still sexism IG coming over (however mildly) from the mindsets of the players. Some people I know don't intentionally do it, but I think they are still doing it. And I just want to make this post to make other people aware or at least get talking on the topic. Maybe some people don't think this exists at or haven't encountered it, but I for one think it's there.
EDITED BY HALASTER - to remove the names of active, live PC's.
---- The following is PERSONAL OPINION and not staff policy ----
While I am in complete agreement to much of what you had to say in your post, I don't have too much problem with the term 'women's chatter'. Seriously, I'd just toss back a comment about 'men's whining' or 'male mood swings' and let it go at that. If they had implied that women's chatter was somehow below men's chatter, then they'd be incorrect and really just looking to get stabbed in the back by the women they were deriding.
You were incorrect on one point, and that is the Jihae/Lirathu thing. I think that many players don't realize that in Tuluk, the women run the show. Lirathans are basically 'in charge' of the city and the Jihaens defer to them in most matters. Also, while they make look dainty or frail to you - I will only say that appearances can be quite deceiving and leave it at that. Lirathans represent a signifigant and strong female presence in the game and how ever things may appear - they are templars - and all templars are scary, scary people when it comes down to it. While it isn't openly spoken of, it is well known in Tuluk that the Lirathans and the Inquisition are responsible for frightening, secretive and final vanishings. A cross stare from a Lirathan of rank should be enough to make most people consider a change of address, a new name, a career in a remote village...
It is harder for a woman to be taken seriously in a military role, but it's not as difficult as you seem to make it out to be.
It shouldn't be harder, though, I agree.
To play devil's advocate, prowess and trust from your comrades comes from proving yourself, so don't be too quick to assume it's because you're a female. That may be a factor, but frankly, being a strategy and combat code terror takes time, preparation, effort, fast reading, and a little innate talent.
Read some Sun-Tzu, set up some triggers to highlight important combat events, learn to skim the spam for the important stuff, work your reaction times, figure out good strategies that incorporate the nuances of the combat code.
Quirri-fighting and 'tok fighting I don't see as too out of place, personally, as long as it's describing the TYPE of fight and not the genders involved. Of course, I'd refer to a woman as a 'tok just as easily as I would a quirri.
Frankly, if you play the American stereotype of a sexy, feminine woman, expect people to be predisposed to treating you like the stereotype of a sexy, feminine woman, no matter what role you're in. If you're a rough and tumble mercenary woman, then act like one! Snarl a little, gamble, hawk up loogies, throw punches instead of clawing faces, adjust your leggings, kick the shit off your boots as you stomp into the tavern. In short, don't be too dainty AND expect people to take you seriously as a combat character. You don't have to overdo it or act like a stereotypical guy, but if you're acting like a lady, people are going to treat you like a lady. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but it's a simple fact.
(The 'you' in this post is a general 'you'.)
This has been discussed to death in previous threads.
:arrow: This type of behavior doesn't belong in the world of Zalanthas.
:arrow: Some RL sayings and/or beliefs still bleed through from time to time.
:arrow: Those sayings/beliefs are wrong. It sucks. They'll hopefully learn.
There will always be this problem as new players are introduced to the game and slowly weened off their RL perception of gender roles. Send your example to the mud account with a log and perhaps it will warrant an email to the player making these remarks. That would probably be a far better course of action if you expect results.
-LoD
I don't have to read all of it to totally agree with you, and I have one thing to say about it, it is bad RP if one doesn't know that men and women are equal in Zalanthas, even though Im a newb, I still try to follow this concept, and the only difference I make in persons are their physical and social status, and that doesn't iclude difference of sex
I hope that your thread will make players more aware of the sexism in ARM :)
Hello, my name is Malifaxis...
I'm male, and I'm a misogynist.
That taken into account, I would like to post on this. I've noticed that primarily on Armageddon there isn't much sexism. I've noticed this because I have played strong women characters... not too many of them, mind you, because damn are they tough, but I have done it. And I've had no problem advancing, and I've had no problem advancing tactical theory.
Granted, I may be playing the sex wrong... I don't know. I certainly hope not, I like to think myself capable.
I think what has been happening is that there have been a few players who thought "Hey... the norm is non-sexism. Lets break the norm with this character." And perhaps they wrote it into the background that the PC's mother and sisters all were extremely week, very frail of heart (for zalanthas) and eventually died in some pissant way like dissease or infection or something that could be seen as a 'lesser death.' These experiences put those characters into a sexist mindset. This is fine, this should be allowed.
However I think it may have taken off. Perhaps that character came into close contact with a couple newbies or other PCs that belonged to possibly sexist male players. They saw this person doing it, and thought that that was the norm instead of the exception.
I have, lately, noticed an upswing of such things... but I don't think it's as horridly widespread as you may believe. You could, also, head up north and play a dominating white leather clad templar's disciplinary agent. Take steps to root out those males who have balls enough to think they are better, and then snip the problem at the roots and let them live as an example. :twisted:
Not that I'm inferring that Tulukian males have balls.
A lot of points you make are true. People often carry over their RL views into the game about all sorts of things.
But, I feel you aren't giving the women leaders of the game a fair shake.
Here are some powerful females that I remember that are everything and more than what you've mentioned:
Liktith the Black (Blackrobe in Allanak)
In fact, many of the Blackrobes are female.
Elaira Fale was given domain of the Northlands after Allanak took it over.
Aquila Nenyuk was a very powerful templar.
There are more - but these ones are mentioned in the History. ;)
There are leaders in tribes that are female. There are beings of exceptional power and potency that are female.
Is the split 50:50 down the middle for leadership in all the various groups? No, I don't think it is. But it fairly close. Let me see, of those I know about, without revealing any detail other than male or female leadership:
Seven Females and Six Males. Those are only the ones I know about and leadership sometimes changes so I could be wrong.
Finally, I don't think it is fair to say that a female needs to be a buff, sword wielding terror to be equal to a male. Many of the male leaders are not buff or warriors. The same goes for the females.
Is it tougher on a female military leader? I think it is but it isn't terrible or crippling. I remember one very strong willed woman in House Tor - she had no problems what so ever. I would guess one's mileage varies depending on whom they are playing with.
With a majority of players being males then we can expect a majority of PC leaders to be male simply due to the numbers factor. That part isn't sexism it is a reflection of the demographics within the game. To fix that we need to recruit more women to play Armageddon.
Yes, sexism bleeds through occasionally. From my experience, it's not nearly as rampant as it is made out to be, however. A lot of times, (now I'm not targetting you with this) the characters that are treated as dainty fragile things or overemotional bickering things act or look like that, so there is nothing wrong with treating them that way. It is not that they're women, it's that they are womanly by earth standards.
The female PC I played was stronger and rougher than a lot of the men she was clanned with, and people treated her with respect in that regard. She was also emotionally unstable and overly naive, and people treated her like a child when it came down to that.
I've also played a dainty, f-me looking man, and people treated him like he looked.
This has been my experience, at least.
Quote from: "Naiona"
You were incorrect on one point, and that is the Jihae/Lirathu thing. I think that many players don't realize that in Tuluk, the women run the show. Lirathans are basically 'in charge' of the city and the Jihaens defer to them in most matters. Also, while they make look dainty or frail to you - I will only say that appearances can be quite deceiving and leave it at that. Lirathans represent a signifigant and strong female presence in the game and how ever things may appear - they are templars - and all templars are scary, scary people when it comes down to it. While it isn't openly spoken of, it is well known in Tuluk that the Lirathans and the Inquisition are responsible for frightening, secretive and final vanishings. A cross stare from a Lirathan of rank should be enough to make most people consider a change of address, a new name, a career in a remote village...
This is of course very very true. My main point was that I just wonder why it seems the men get to/do focus on the more militaristic, physical matters, just seems somewhat cliche to the fact that men are stronger in these areas. It does not necessarily need to be changed, but as Naiona says, you would be mistaken if you didn't realize Lirathuans terrifying authority. I would just hope people would not mistake that and not continue a flow of "women are weaker in physical ambition" they may or may not be in RL but in Zalanthas it's a fact that they are not weaker. And I know that the Lirathu Order of course does have a keen involvment in militaristic strategy.
As far as what you said Delirium :) And I was hoping you'd post. I do agree that if you act dainty you will and probably should be treated dainty since you are - dainty. But what I'm refering to is those of us that choose not to act dainty yet STILL get treated like we are simple for the fact we are women.
Also like you said some research won't hurt. Even for men. As someone who has done some research and has been involved with martial arts, some knife/weapon fighting etc, and various books on such matters I try to incorporate such things in my playing. Once again the frustrating things is when you have a women who has done these things, knows her stuff and is capable being treated like she isn't and competing with a male who has done none of these things. The male is on her level simply because she is a male while the female is working hard OOC and IC to RP and express a strong, combat capable female character. Point bein' I don't think women should have to work harder then a male for the same position in Zalanthas. But like you said they do.
I'm just hoping to make people conscious about this issue, even if it has been discussed before. :) I'm happy to see after such a short time into this thread womenz that know what they're talking about posting their stuff in regards to this issue.
Quote from: "marko"A lot of points you make are true. People often carry over their RL views into the game about all sorts of things.
But, I feel you aren't giving the women leaders of the game a fair shake.
..Finally, I don't think it is fair to say that a female needs to be a buff, sword wielding terror to be equal to a male. Many of the male leaders are not buff or warriors. The same goes for the females.
I just mostly focused on this from my experience, because I don't play many non sword wielding women I guess. But the rule applies generally. And like I said in my post above.
-There have been great PC female leaders.
- And because there are more men play their inevitably will be more male leaders.
-Also as you said, it just depends on who you are interacting with. If they have some sexism IRL it will likely bleed over even if unintentionally.
Quote from: "bloodfromstone"The characters that are treated as dainty fragile things or overemotional bickering things act or look like that, so there is nothing wrong with treating them that way. It is not that they're women, it's that they are womanly by earth standards.
I agree which is why I'm not blaming men more then women. If you are dainty, you are dainty. Some woman DO play daintly characters, that is just a fact. And sometimes these women characters cause petty squabbles but I'm hoping people will realize they need to differentiate between the women that are making these squabbles and the women that are adept. Just like in that little "scene" I somewhat experienced. One woman was being petty, one knew what she was saying but she was automatically dismissed right along with the other petty one like it was some "typical" cat fight. Even though she knew her stuff. There are many IC and OOC factors to take into account. But I think people should be careful like a said not to confuse one woman with another, they are not all the same.
Just to say, Blackwing has been a mixed bag in the past of leaders male and females, blackwing is NOT a sexist group, seriously, unless you played in the group, I ask that they not be used as an example to say sexism exists on arm. It's just wrong.
That having been said, I don't actually disagree with Bebop entirly, I just felt I had to defend Blackwing having played so so so much Blackwing.
I think it is a lot to ask sometimes for rpers to step out of their life and see things differently. I think the best thing is to set examples. If you see someone in game doing it, try too lead by example. That is how I think people can help fellow rpers improve.
If you really hate it prove them wrong. Don't throw a hissy fit over it like a woman.
I don't really agree with this. Even if Zalanthanian society in general isn't sexist, it doesn't mean there can't be some individuals who are. Who knows, maybe the PC that talked about "women chatter" just happened to grow up with five excessively yappy sisters and bases his opinion of women on that. Maybe he's been screwed over in the mating game once too often and has become bitter.
Like someone else suggested, instead of being thin-skinned about it, just snap back.
As for military women and respect, it's really simple. If your character wants respect in a group of men, have her challenge the top dog and kick his ass. If she can do that, she'll find they're willing to take her lead (so long as she isn't cruel or obnoxious to go with it). If she can't, she isn't ready to be the leader yet.
The problem isn't with characters discriminating against women.
The problem is that some players fail to realize that discriminating against women is very rare and unusual in the Known World.
It's just like playing an elf that wants to ride a kank - it's fine as part of a realistic concept, but it's important that the player understands just how unusual riding a kank would be.
The problem is, though, that a lot of these people who play the sexist exception also play as though they don't know that they're a rare exception.
I think also that you have to realize, respect is more then just beating someone's ass. Just because someone cant do that doesn't mean they aren't entitled to respect and often times even if you do that someone who may feel bested by a woman will she be sour, and still not show any kind of respect. It's more complicated then that.
I also agree that you should lead by example, which I try to do in playing PCs that aren't petty, and rugged female characters. But the thing is there is only so much you can do when the leader of your clan puts you down because you're a woman. You can't force him to promote you.
It could be IC like others were saying but like Larrath said, it should be rare like an elf riding a kank. And it has been far to common in my eyes for that excuse to be consistant.
The fact is that 99% of PC female characters are smaller, weaker, prettier, and more real-world "womanly" than 99% of male PC characters.
If you want to play a female that's treated like a man, play a female that's more "manly" and I promise you it will happen. But if you play a female that embodies womanly qualities, expect to be treated that way as well.
Just because sexism doesn't exist on Zalanthas doesn't mean that people are blind to the differences between women and men.
Characters are a result of the environment that shapes them. My PCs interact mainly with women who are exactly like women in real life, and so it's no surprise at all that they think of them as dainty, usually pretty creatures.
When my PCs do meet a stronger, more "manly" woman, they have absolutely no problem accepting that, but it's the exception, not the rule.
Normally I hate, hate, hate when people say "be the change you want to see," but in this case it fits.
If you don't want to be treated like a woman, don't be so womanly.
QuoteThis has been discussed to death in previous threads.
I think it's a useful reminder, particularly for players new to these boards. Certainly it's not the only thread that comes up over and over again. ;) Thank you for taking the time to write that up, Bebop.
To try to respond to Bebop, I've never experienced this. Then again that's because I only play male PCs (rugged and effeminate types but still male). What I can say though is that if you want to be treated equally as a rugged character then act rugged. That means if someone starts insulting you because of your gender then you can certainly get right in their face about theirs. Don't let other PCs, especially those playing a sexist, discriminate your PCs. Discriminate right back to them.
I personally feel it's misguided to ignore all differences and otherness between the sexes in game. The crux of the matter though is that women are equal to men in all forms on Zalanthas. There is absolutely -no- institutionalized sexism IC except what players bring in. So if a male PC treats you like in a derogatory manner, get back in his face about it and tell him you've got more prowess in your *insert body part* than he'll ever have. Ask them if they're afraid of women because their mommy beat them too hard when they were younger.
But just quickly to list a few reasons why you may not be respected in combat which apply to male and female PCs:
-Not enough experience with the unit
-Your PC isn't assertive enough, hence if they get pushed around by other members of the company without standing up for themselves then a leader may not take them seriously
-Other IC factors to varied to list
So as I said at first, I have limited experience with this because I only play male PCs. And I know people do bring in all sorts of sexism into the game. My best suggestion is to try not to take it to heart and to roleplay that the sexist is the exception and you have nothing to be afraid of.
Quote from: "Cale_Knight"The fact is that 99% of PC female characters are smaller, weaker, prettier, and more real-world "womanly" than 99% of male PC characters.
If you want to play a female that's treated like a man, play a female that's more "manly" and I promise you it will happen. But if you play a female that embodies womanly qualities, expect to be treated that way as well.
Just because sexism doesn't exist on Zalanthas doesn't mean that people are blind to the differences between women and men.
Characters are a result of the environment that shapes them. My PCs interact mainly with women who are exactly like women in real life, and so it's no surprise at all that they think of them as dainty, usually pretty creatures.
When my PCs do meet a stronger, more "manly" woman, they have absolutely no problem accepting that, but it's the exception, not the rule.
Normally I hate, hate, hate when people say "be the change you want to see," but in this case it fits.
If you don't want to be treated like a woman, don't be so womanly.
It's not a question of "being womanly" or not. Bebop didn't say anything about wanting her female characters to be treated like they are actually male characters. Her whole point was that female characters are treated as less capable, less intelligent, less able to self-govern, less knowledgeable, etc. than male characters. THAT is sexism, because the fact that character A is a member of group B is being used to judge their abilities, rather than anything character A has done / can do / will do.
Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"I don't really agree with this. Even if Zalanthanian society in general isn't sexist, it doesn't mean there can't be some individuals who are. Who knows, maybe the PC that talked about "women chatter" just happened to grow up with five excessively yappy sisters and bases his opinion of women on that. Maybe he's been screwed over in the mating game once too often and has become bitter.
Like someone else suggested, instead of being thin-skinned about it, just snap back.
When an exception to the rule is really nothing more a miraculous replication of a real-life attitude that has no place on Zalanthas, then that doesn't change the fact that it has no place on Zalanthas.
QuoteAs for military women and respect, it's really simple. If your character wants respect in a group of men, have her challenge the top dog and kick his ass. If she can do that, she'll find they're willing to take her lead (so long as she isn't cruel or obnoxious to go with it). If she can't, she isn't ready to be the leader yet.
I would hope that both men and women leaders would require better qualities than simply high combat statistics to survive in their position.
On the subject of the Lirathuan order: Bebob, what your posts fail to realize is that in Zalanthas, the person that doesn't have to get their hands dirty is the person who has the real power. In Tuluk, these people are the Lirathuan templars. The fact that Jihaen templars are in charge of military matters isn't a symbol of their male strength and virility, it's an indication that they have recieved the short end of the stick in the social and political setup of Tuluk.
However, I do agree with what you are saying about northern templars. I don't think anybody should be forced to play a PC of a certain gender to have fun on Armageddon, and I wish the Tuluki templarate wasn't set up in this matter.
In general, good post, and thank you for bringing awareness to this subject. I always read posts like these and hope they will assist me in reducing any sexist beliefs I may have both in Armageddon and in real life.
It is a rather self-defeating purpose if you continuously make excuses for sexism in
gameplay. It just means that, more and more often, actual women Armers like
myself will choose to play male characters so the balance is kept. It has nothing to
do with how much butt you kick or what your character appears to be. Having just
ended a male pc not too long ago, I can tell you I was treated very differently and
not underestimated regardless of what I did and how I looked. Neither was the
male pc I played previous to that, and these were very different characters.
If a male pc is given the benefit of the doubt and the female pc is not when it's the
exact same situation, it's sexism. It's a situation where one gender is being treated
differently from the other gender for no other reason than gender.
All the male players, especially the misogynists, could benefit from playing a
long-lived female pc for a while and not telling anyone who or what they're currently
playing.
Myself, I'll just end up playing more and more male pcs to avoid the lack of realism
I have to experience from a select number of players unable to fully immerse
themselves into the setting.
Quote from: "Intrepid"Myself, I'll just end up playing more and more male pcs to avoid the lack of realism I have to experience from a select number of players unable to fully immerse themselves into the setting.
Sexism
is what's realistic. Men and women
are different. Armageddon's take on that isn't realism, it's catering to the desires of the female portion of the playerbase, which is fine. Just don't go accusing players of being unrealistic.
As for sexism: I would love it if people treated my character differently because he was a man. It'd be fun, even if they made things more difficult for him.
Quote from: "Gorilla J"Sexism is what's realistic. Men and women are different. Armageddon's take on that isn't realism, it's catering to the desires of the female portion of the playerbase, which is fine. Just don't go accusing players of being unrealistic.
As for sexism: I would love it if people treated my character differently because he was a man. It'd be fun, even if they made things more difficult for him.
No, sexism is not realistic behavior (in most situations) when playing a character in the world of Zalanthas. The only differences between men and women in Zalanthas are the genitals and the mammary glands. They're equally strong, equally smart, there is no social gender since no sex has oppressed another like in RL. I'm not a fanatic feminist radical, but I've read my share of literature on the topic.
I, and I'm a male, like the fact that there is supposed to be no sexism in Zalanthas. It's not only a catering to female players' needs.
The players are probably not unrealistic, but they portray their characters in an unrealistic way if the do behave sexist for no other reason than RL ideals/biases/prejudices seeping into the game.
IMO your post is close to trolling, Gorilla J.
(Edited for minor spelling)
Quote from: "EvilRoeSlade"QuoteAs for military women and respect, it's really simple. If your character wants respect in a group of men, have her challenge the top dog and kick his ass. If she can do that, she'll find they're willing to take her lead (so long as she isn't cruel or obnoxious to go with it). If she can't, she isn't ready to be the leader yet.
I would hope that both men and women leaders would require better qualities than simply high combat statistics to survive in their position.
Yes, you'd hope. But human beings have never been good at existing on the intellectual plane. Why else do people offer to settle an argument with violence so often? In the end, it takes a good butt kicking for a visceral sinking in.
Quote from: "palomar"Quote from: "Gorilla J"Sexism is what's realistic. Men and women are different. Armageddon's take on that isn't realism, it's catering to the desires of the female portion of the playerbase, which is fine. Just don't go accusing players of being unrealistic.
As for sexism: I would love it if people treated my character differently because he was a man. It'd be fun, even if they made things more difficult for him.
No, sexism is not realistic behavior (in most situations) when playing a character in the world of Zalanthas. The only differences between men and women in Zalanthas are the genitals and the mammary glands. They're equally strong, equally smart, there is no social gender since no sex has oppressed another like in RL. I'm not a fanatic feminist radical, but I've read my share of literature on the topic.
I, and I'm a male, like the fact that there is supposed to be no sexism in Zalanthas. It's not only a catering to female players' needs.
The players are probably not unrealistic, but they portray their characters in an unrealistic way if the do behave sexist for no other reason than RL ideals/biases/prejudices seeping into the game.
IMO your post is close to trolling, Gorilla J.
(Edited for minor spelling)
I guess it's a good thing what you think of my post doesn't affect whether it remains or not, then. I find the lack of sexism in the game disturbing; men and women are
not the same, even if they have equal opportunities and no gender has been oppressed. That goes both ways, you can discriminate against men just as well. But they /are/ different; if everyone was the same, what would there be to attract a mate, or similar things?
Wow, you are really trying aren't you.
The male/female physiology is structurally different. However women can grow just as strong, be just as pigheaded, or stink just as much if they put their minds to it.
It is the will that drives the body. There is no difference in male/female will.
Quote from: "Cale_Knight"If you want to play a female that's treated like a man, play a female that's more "manly" and I promise you it will happen.
What about the other side? From that sentence, it is logical to imply males should play a little "womanly."
I think the case for Zalanthas is accepting there is almost no exact behaviour set described as manly or womanly.
Quote from: "Intrepid"All the male players, especially the misogynists, could benefit from playing a
long-lived female pc for a while and not telling anyone who or what they're currently
playing.
I hope you realize that misogynist means "woman-hater". Do you think we have women haters on this board? Bebop's original article was about a PC who dared to stipulate that women behave
differently than men
on Zalanthas.
Should I get upset on this board because a female character once accused one of mine of thinking with his little head? Should I call her a misandrist? No.
Quote from: "Malifaxis"Wow, you are really trying aren't you.
The male/female physiology is structurally different. However women can grow just as strong, be just as pigheaded, or stink just as much if they put their minds to it.
It is the will that drives the body. There is no difference in male/female will.
Yes, they can. I never said otherwise; I merely said they were different. If they put their mind to it, and work, a man or a woman can be just as good as anyone else in any specific thing. But that doesn't mean men and women are identical.
No one is saying they're not different. There are physical (as in organs, not capabilities) differences. There are clothing differences. I'd like to believe that even in Zalanthas there are some behavioral and cultural differences. In Tuluk, there's even an institutionalized seperation of gender among the Templarate.
What is meant by no sexism is that gender is not refered to in an inherently derogatory or complementary way. In Zalanthas, people wouldn't say "manly man", "crying like a girl", or "hits like a woman". They don't say "slut", or "bitch" as an insult. They wouldn't say "have the balls to ..." either.
Quote from: "Intrepid"All the male players, especially the misogynists, could benefit from playing a
long-lived female pc for a while and not telling anyone who or what they're currently
playing.
Maybe I was lucky, but my longest lived PC was a female, and I experienced very little sexism. Granted, she was plain-faced, strong and rough. I'm sure that factors into the equation somewhere. There were side comments here and there, mostly just Earth phrases that didn't quite fit, but didn't actually mean any harm. There were a few instances that I thought were a little out of the setting, but, over all, it was a wonderful experience. I'm planning to play another female PC soon, actually. Hopefully it will be just as rewarding.
Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"Even if Zalanthanian society in general isn't sexist, it doesn't mean there can't be some individuals who are.
This remark is identical to: "Even if Zalanthian elves in general don't ride kanks, it doesn't mean there can't be some individuals who do."
What we're telling you,
as a matter of staff policy is that
sexism doesn't exist on Zalanthas[/b]. We're not saying "in general it doesn't happen," we're saying "it doesn't exist."
What is meant by that remark is a much more nebulous thing, unfortunately. The wikipedia definition of sexism fits pretty well, I think: "Sexism is commonly considered to be discrimination and/or hatred against people based on their sex rather than their individual merits, but can also refer to any and all systemic differentiations based on the sex of the individuals." The part where it gets really difficult is when your character has had a long history of being injured by members of a particular gender, and I can certainly see this evolving into a general distaste for that gender, but it should never become a "systemic differentation". To make use of Bebop's example, unless your character has specifically witnessed a lot of trivial "chatter" among the women he's been exposed to, then this "woman chatter" thing would never occur to you, it is an anachronism invading your RP.
If anything, the extrapolation made from having been consistently injured by members of another gender throughout your life should probably be that they're not trustworthy and are probably smarter/stronger than you and so should be avoided. What
shouldn't happen is that, as your character grows to dislike the opposite gender more and more, your RL stereotypes clutter and corrupt your play.
-- X
Quote from: "Sanvean"I think it's a useful reminder, particularly for players new to these boards. Certainly it's not the only thread that comes up over and over again. ;) Thank you for taking the time to write that up, Bebop.
Perhaps there would be room for a sticky or documentation detailing the better arguements/reminders asserted in these threads rather than bringing them up every two months.
If we want to discuss why sexism happens in game, and I mean why it REALLY happens, then there are a lot of other factors that weigh into the arguement. Notice must be paid to the actions taken by all players, not just the male characters. The issue is that men and women are very good at recognizing each other's cues, and they use them.
Clothing CuesWomen, more than men, tend to wear dresses, jewelry, and silks that play up status, physical appearance, comfort, and style.
Men, more than women, tend to wear armor, badges, tattooes, and scars that play up physical prowess, competition, power, and practicality.
Is this in the documentation? Or are these RL trends working their way into the game? Why don't the men wear the rings and trinkets, and the women walk around rugged, tough, and battle hardened? Those do happen, but they are the exception and not the rule. There are dirty filthy 'rinth females, female Byn sergeants, male Fale Lords, silk clad male merchants -- but not as often.
Physical CuesWomen, more than men, giggle, cover ther mouth when they laugh, flip their hair, pout their lips, sway their hips, and exhibit a wealth of physical cues that suggest traditional Western values of what is sexy, feminine, and attractive.
Men, more than women, grunt, nod, scowl, narrow their eyes, tromp, clank their armor, scratch themselves, make crude gestures, and exhibit cues that imply strength, stoicism, and ruggedness commonly associated with the role of the hunter, the provider, the insensitive bread winner.
Why are female descriptions often so smooth, dainty, volumptuous, or large breasted? Why do they have pouty lips, rosy cheeks, flowing hair, round hips, hourglass figures? Why do males traditionally have heavily muscled physiques, ruggedly handsome features, callused hands, eyepatches, scars, broad shoulders, and war braids? Do they accurately reflect their position in society? The job they do? The job they hope to do? Why aren't women and men more similar in the descriptions they write if their occupations and social standing is likewise equal?
There are lots of factors that weigh into why sexism continues to plague the game and, predominantly, its female players. But the issues are not black and white. I'd be interested to see some more steps and explanations created that further differentiate RL females/males and Zalanthan females/males. Manner of dress, typical gender roles within Zalanthas (if any), Zalanthan models of beauty (both male and female), traditional male-female courtships in both the north and south.
I think some of those things might help attack the problem from both sides.
-LoD
I agree that as a game, we have chosen the setting and background that men and woman are completely equal. We have also chosen the setting and background that elves do not ride mounts.
In real life, sexism exists. In real life, kanks and elves do not exist. It is easier for players to accept as Zalanthan "fact" that elves don't ride mounts because they don't have real life influencing their actions. It is harder for players to play out not being sexist when it exists in real life on some level.
My point? While I agree that players as a whole need to work at getting better at this one aspect, let's not get upset at them for failing in this area, but simply give them friendly reminders and forget about it. Let's face it - it's harder to roleplay certain situations than others. For example, opening the door for a woman. I do that in Real Life and in my mind I'm not thinking I'm being sexist in a bad way. I do that because that's what "Men Do" without thought of women being inferior or any other such ideas. Modern society has said that it's proper and polite. So it bleeds over into the game because I didn't immediately associate the action with sexism. I agree, in this example on Zalanthas men wouldn't be opening doors for women, but I didn't think of it that way.
I do admit that I find roleplaying this particular situation very difficult at times, if I want to be really strict and hardline about it. By that I mean, "If I say this or do this, am I basing that purely on the fact it's a woman, and if so, is it done in a bad way?". This is a hard one for me, personally, to grasp as a roleplayer.
For example, if everything is equal:
:arrow: Would men and women still want privacy from the opposite sex when going to the bathroom?
:arrow: Would men and women still want privacy from the opposite sex when changing clothes?
Some more observations:
While the sexes are equal in terms of power, achievement, and so on, they are still not the same. Heterosexuality must be more commonplace than homosexuality else the races would simply not survive. Therefore, man-woman relationships are more prevalent than man-man or woman-woman relationships. The very reason sex (in the sense of male/female not the act) exists is for the continuation of the species - otherwise they'd all be asexual and just bud or divide. My point? There is a difference in male and female and so it's only natural, on some level, that differences in how each other is treated takes place.
In real life, there are certain physical traits that each sex finds more appealing than other physical traits. For example, many men find the "dainty" or "shapley" or "big-boobed" type women more attractive. It only makes sense, then, why male players have their male characters react differently to those types of women. Again, I'm not saying this is the way it should be, but simply saying it's the way it is. My question: How do we, as players, move ourselves beyond this?
I don't necessarily know the answers, and this is probably the area that I'm the "worst" at when it comes to roleplaying.
Quote from: "Cale_Knight"The fact is that 99% of PC female characters are smaller, weaker, prettier, and more real-world "womanly" than 99% of male PC characters.
If you want to play a female that's treated like a man, play a female that's more "manly" and I promise you it will happen. But if you play a female that embodies womanly qualities, expect to be treated that way as well.
The point is just because someone is womanly or feminine and doesn't want to RP scratching their crotch and spitting doesn't mean they can't be respected or codedly kick butt. If someone is being petty treat them like their petty sure, but I think woman still can be and should be allowed to be feminine but strong.
And alot of men and maybe women on the reverse recoil to see an overly manly woman, though I've seen some with moustaches.
You shouldn't judge people by how you expect them to play because their PC looks a certain way. This is Zalanthas and women can be codedly strong and fight even if they don't want to go around carry a big stick. That's the point they shouldn't be trying to over compensate with testosterone to be acknowledged or respected. They should be able to maintain the fact they are a woman and still retain respect if they deserve it without having to act this way or that.
I think just because the genders are equal, and sexism doesn't exist. Well that doesn't mean a girl can't behave "girlish" and a man can't behave "manly." The genders aren't the same. They're equal. That's a big difference to me. If I want to make a female character who giggles and tries to be demure sometimes, and batts her eyelashes when she's flirting, then it's because I want her to be seen as "delicately feminine." That doesn't mean she can't kick your ass from Tuluk to Allanak and back. Maybe she can, maybe she can't. It just means that I want her to be perceived in a very particular way, for a very specific reason. If I am out of line for thinking this way, if it is wrong to think that giggling, eyelash-batting, and hip-swaying are all "delicately feminine" traits, by all means correct me. If swaggering, chuckling as a replacement for a giggle, and winking instead of batting shouldn't be considered "manly" or at least "non-delicately feminine" behaviors, go ahead and correct me. But the genders are not the same. If they were, there wouldn't be any need for more than one gender.
I hope I'm understanding this right and roleplaying approrpirately.
L. Stanson
Can we say, though, that woman on Zalanthas do have a tendancy toss their hair, giggle, and wear more fine clothes and jewelry than men, yet aren't discriminated against? Can we say that a female Byn sergeants kick just as much ass as any male sergeant, yet spend more time on average cleaning their armor? Can we say that women like to talk about feelings more than men but that doesn't affect how good a leader one is? Can we say that in monogamous relationships with children, men tend to take the providor role while the women manage the home, and not have people look down at her for a lack of a formal employment?
(There are honest questions, not rhetorical. I'm genuinely curious if things could work this way, or if this is how it's meant to be in the first place.)
I think it's certainly possible to have something be abnormal (dainty men, gruff dirty women, stay-at-home dads) but not be discrimated against.
I have played feminine knockouts, and I have played mean, tattooed, badasses.
I have to admit I haven't, personally, seen any overt sexism.
I have seen a difference in the way they're treated, but that is because they are different characters, plain and simple.
Maybe I'm just lucky but the worst sexism I've ever witnessed is that it's a little more difficult for a female combat character to prove herself among men, but a few examples of WHY said female was top 'tok was usually more than enough...
Quote from: "Bebop"Quote from: "Cale_Knight"The fact is that 99% of PC female characters are smaller, weaker, prettier, and more real-world "womanly" than 99% of male PC characters.
If you want to play a female that's treated like a man, play a female that's more "manly" and I promise you it will happen. But if you play a female that embodies womanly qualities, expect to be treated that way as well.
The point is just because someone is womanly or feminine and doesn't want to RP scratching their crotch and spitting doesn't mean they can't be respected or codedly kick butt. If someone is being petty treat them like their petty sure, but I think woman still can be and should be allowed to be feminine but strong.
And alot of men and maybe women on the reverse recoil to see an overly manly woman, though I've seen some with moustaches.
You shouldn't judge people by how you expect them to play because their PC looks a certain way. This is Zalanthas and women can be codedly strong and fight even if they don't want to go around carry a big stick. That's the point they shouldn't be trying to over compensate with testosterone to be acknowledged or respected. They should be able to maintain the fact they are a woman and still retain respect if they deserve it without having to act this way or that.
So you want women to be respected and thought of a certain why even if they don't act that way or flaunt it, or even if they seem to be something else? Not going to happen.
You want a woman who's treated just like "one of the guys"? Then act like one of the guys; you're not going to be treated the way you want just because you want to be. If you look like you're weak, girly, dainty, etc., or act like it, you're going to be treated that way.
This has been rehashed many times before, so please keep it civil and watch your tones. Remember that multiple staff have put in their opinion on this, and this discussion is so that those who haven't had a chance to chime in before can contribute to the ongoing discussion.
QuoteYou shouldn't judge people by how you expect them to play because their PC looks a certain way.
I have to disagree with this. You shouldn't judge a character because of their gender. But you should judge them by their appearance. Just because the slight, dainty maiden can be a warrior with maxxed slashing weapons does NOT mean everyone should be expected to treat everyone like they could have any guild combination/skill level. If my PC, male or female, meets a scrawney, well-kempt woman OR man who can devestate people in combat, they will be surprised. I would, personally, say that not judging someone's abilities by their appearance is looking at things from an OOC perspective.
Quote from: "Gorilla J"So you want women to be respected and thought of a certain why even if they don't act that way or flaunt it, or even if they seem to be something else? Not going to happen.
You want a woman who's treated just like "one of the guys"? Then act like one of the guys; you're not going to be treated the way you want just because you want to be. If you look like you're weak, girly, dainty, etc., or act like it, you're going to be treated that way.
I'm sorry but you're way misinterpretting the post. In Zalanthas a woman's goal isn't to be "one of the guys" because guys and girls are the same on Zalanthas. They are -already- one of the guys. Guys and girls are the same socially their only difference should be physical. You don't have to like everyone but a person doesn't have to be masculine to be respected or fit in. That is sexist to say that they must behave like a man to get respect, if that is they case then why not just play a man. That's the point of the thread, to remind people not to have that kind of disposition that you don't have to be masculine to get respect. That is a real wordly idea, and it puts men at the higher standing I'm talking about. These kind of attitudes don't belong in game. A woman can still be womanly and be codedly strong in Zalanthas. They shouldn't have to act more like a man to get the same respect.
On the same note, a man shouldn't have to play some brawny whatever to fit in. Man on Zalanthas can play frilly guys and do work if they want to. It's all up to the imagination. The gender may sway to act one way or another but that's not sexism if a girl giggles more then a man. It's just different different traits. The point is, is that based on policy people should be able to choose whether they want to approach their character one way or the other. Not act like "one of the guys." To fit in.
Bloodfromstone - Maybe not so much by appearance you're right - I would be suprised to but attitude. My point is that just because a woman doesn't have a masculine appearance or attitude doesn't mean she isn't as strong is a man. That is my main point. All woman don't have to act manly, all men don't have to act womanly - the point is I don't think people should be judged by those behaviors. Oh you are woman with ample breasts that doesn't spit and have a moustache well "you aren't one of the guys and you can't lead" I don't think that's appropriate. That's like me saying - oh you have broad shoulders and a toned chest, you codedly have a good appearance you aren't one of the "girls." See how just... strange that is?
Ok, I don't want to jump in deeper but I'll say a few things. I've played a prissy looking man and was rejected from joining the Byn more or less because I looked too prissy. I expect the same to hold for women.
Here's one thought: Don't define being feminine by Western standards. Don't definite being feminine as being the dainty or petite girl, because in all honesty if someone is dainty or petite they really don't look like they can hold their own in a fight. This may very well be false, but if I saw a "petite, kohl-eyed man" I'd definitely assume he was someone pampered who wasn't a good fighter. Hence if I see a "petite, kohl-eyed woman" I'm going to assume the same thing.
Perhaps I'm looking at this the wrong way. I'm not trying to say someone can't play a dainty PC, but if you do play one don't expect to have it immediately assumed that you can do combat. I also am not trying to say that women have to be the "hairy, broad-shouldered woman" to earn my combat respect. But when I play combat PCs I generally look for some signs that the PC can hold their own: muscles, attitude, a military bearing, etc.
Ah, I was mistaken on what you meant. Thank you for clarifying. :)
Quote from: "SpyGuy"Ok, I don't want to jump in deeper but I'll say a few things. I've played a prissy looking man and was rejected from joining the Byn more or less because I looked too prissy. I expect the same to hold for women.
Here's one thought: Don't define being feminine by Western standards. Don't definite being feminine as being the dainty or petite girl, because in all honesty if someone is dainty or petite they really don't look like they can hold their own in a fight. This may very well be false, but if I saw a "petite, kohl-eyed man" I'd definitely assume he was someone pampered who wasn't a good fighter. Hence if I see a "petite, kohl-eyed woman" I'm going to assume the same thing.
Perhaps I'm looking at this the wrong way. I'm not trying to say someone can't play a dainty PC, but if you do play one don't expect to have it immediately assumed that you can do combat. I also am not trying to say that women have to be the "hairy, broad-shouldered woman" to earn my combat respect. But when I play combat PCs I generally look for some signs that the PC can hold their own: muscles, attitude, a military bearing, etc.
I have also had this happen to me :) with one of my female PCs. I didn't think it was sexist I thought it was great. There is a different between turning someone down because they are dainty, and turning someone down because they are not "masculine" enough.
Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"I hope you realize that misogynist means "woman-hater". Do you think we have women haters on this board? Bebop's original article was about a PC who dared to stipulate that women behave differently than men on Zalanthas.
I am well aware of the meaning, but thank you. And, as has already been generously
mentioned, many ooc attitudes bleed into ic interaction.
QuoteShould I get upset on this board because a female character once accused one of mine of thinking with his little head? Should I call her a misandrist? No.
Actually, yes. I never once said you should take any woman's bullshit when she
talks down to you for being a guy.
Quote from: "Gorilla J"Sexism is what's realistic. Men and women are different. Armageddon's take on that isn't realism, it's catering to the desires of the female portion of the playerbase, which is fine. Just don't go accusing players of being unrealistic.
You just did, actually. And incidentally, Armageddon's lack of sexism hails from
its Dark Sun roots.
Quote from: "Gorilla J"As for sexism: I would love it if people treated my character differently because he was a man. It'd be fun, even if they made things more difficult for him.
What about if they treated your differently for being a woman? Go ahead, try it
sometime.
Quote from: "bloodfromstone"Maybe I was lucky, but my longest lived PC was a female, and I experienced very little sexism. Granted, she was plain-faced, strong and rough. I'm sure that factors into the equation somewhere. There were side comments here and there, mostly just Earth phrases that didn't quite fit, but didn't actually mean any harm. There were a few instances that I thought were a little out of the setting, but, over all, it was a wonderful experience. I'm planning to play another female PC soon, actually. Hopefully it will be just as rewarding.
Phrases that you imply were in regards to your gender, did not fit into the situation; A la gender discrimination bleeding into an ic situation from the real world.
You don't sound that lucky to me. ;)
Quote from: "Intrepid"Quote from: "Gorilla J"Sexism is what's realistic. Men and women are different. Armageddon's take on that isn't realism, it's catering to the desires of the female portion of the playerbase, which is fine. Just don't go accusing players of being unrealistic.
You just did, actually. And incidentally, Armageddon's lack of sexism hails from
its Dark Sun roots.
Quote from: "Gorilla J"As for sexism: I would love it if people treated my character differently because he was a man. It'd be fun, even if they made things more difficult for him.
What about if they treated your differently for being a woman? Go ahead, try it
sometime.
Let them. I'd find it just as amusing.
Quote from: "Intrepid"Quote from: "Gorilla J"What about if they treated your differently for being a woman? Go ahead, try it
sometime.
Let them. I'd find it just as amusing.
Talk is cheap, monkey man.
Quote from: "Intrepid"Quote from: "Intrepid"Quote from: "Gorilla J"What about if they treated your differently for being a woman? Go ahead, try it
sometime.
Let them. I'd find it just as amusing.
Talk is cheap, monkey man.
Unfortunately, I'm not going to retire my character just so you can see whether or not I'd be bothered by it. Should he ever die, though, I'll be sure to let you know so you can come and discriminate my new woman.
Quote from: "Gorilla J"Unfortunately, I'm not going to retire my character just so you can see whether or not I'd be bothered by it. Should he ever die, though, I'll be sure to let you know so you can come and discriminate my new woman.
I knew you'd back out. ;)
Quote from: "Intrepid"Quote from: "Gorilla J"Unfortunately, I'm not going to retire my character just so you can see whether or not I'd be bothered by it. Should he ever die, though, I'll be sure to let you know so you can come and discriminate my new woman.
I knew you'd back out. ;)
Yes, backing out. That's exactly what I'm doing. Intrepid FTW :(
Cute back & forth aside.. the point is not whether you'd enjoy it, the point is that it has no place in Zalanthas.
Discriminate all you like for any multitude of IC reasons that fit your character, but not because of gender.
The 'exception' sets a bad example to those new players who look to more established roleplayers for guidance.
Quote from: "Delirium"Cute back & forth aside.. the point is not whether you'd enjoy it, the point is that it has no place in Zalanthas.
Discriminate all you like for any multitude of IC reasons that fit your character, but not because of gender.
The 'exception' sets a bad example to those new players who look to more established roleplayers for guidance.
I wasn't trying to be cute, but sometimes you just have to tease someone when they're
insulting you at every turn. Fittingly enough, I'm more disturbed by the idea that
several people on here are trying to rationalize why they can't play accordingly to
the provided setting information than I am the notion that they may be hopelessly
sexist in rl.
Bebop...*sigh*
First off, if you're going to post a log, post a log. Not your own biased fantasy version.
Second off, I did actually read your entire post, but I bet a lot of people didn't. Condense, girl, condense!
Third off, I didn't read the whole thread, just most of the first page.
I've played a male PC who was tiny. Like, 65 inches, 6 ten-stone. And he looked it. Petite was in his sdesc and his boyfriend (who was quite large (not like that, pervs, he was just at the top range for height and weight)) nearly broke him a couple times. Most people thought he was 16, maximum, more like 14, but he was 20. There was something much more noticeable he was that he got treated as, but he also got treated weak and unable to fend for himself. Which he also was, cause I played him that way. I played him as a quiet little boy who hated leaving the city, didn't like kanks, and could break his hips if his boyfriend wasn't careful. He wasn't really more than he seemed, if you count weaponscrafter who had little to no knowledge of what to do with weapons as more than he seems.
I've also played petite females. One was a badass social climber who started out psychotically shy and a little bit sociopathic, and then learned how to take care of herself. She got treated as slightly thick (which she was) but a force to be reckoned with (which she also was). She was more than she seemed, because while you were chatting with her or paying attention to comething else she'd snatch your coinpurse right off your belt and keep walking.
Another was a carefree, funloving, very Aphrodite-type character (beautiful, indulgent, had a -lot- of sex, etc) who lasted less than a hundred days and had an awesome IC death but boy was she fun. She was treated like someone who was going to rip your clothes off and feed you Zharal/(I forget the name of the male aphrodisiac) at her first opportunity...cause she was.
I also had a fairly petite and not-rough male, but he was pretty tall so I won't call him petite (yay breeds!). Slim and young were both in his sdesc. He was a flamboyant Trvaling Bard (always capitalized, of course) who was friendly and sweet and sharp-witted (or alternately quiet and gentle and withdrawn), but who could kick the ass of any nasty at least long enough to get away, and hunted his dinner down more than once. He never got into real combat with a PC, but I'm sure he wouldn't have come off terribly.
You can start reading again. This is the important bit of the post.
I'm saying, sometimes sexism happens. It's much more about the character. How you play makes a big difference. If you have knowledge and expertise, cool. Show that by going around and using your knowledge and expertise. Do not show that by going around and saying "I have knowledge and expertise!" Because people think you're lying. "If she has to say it it must not be true." If you don't want to be seen as petty, don't bring your small arguments to your superior, and don't even talk to your superior with the person in the room if there's a small argument, because of course, if the other person says anything, superior automatically assumes that's what you want to talk about and dismisses whatever you say. When another person comes along and says the same things as you've said, superior can no longer ignore it. It so happens that the second person was male and the first was female? Eh, okay. Same diff. As for being dismissed a second time, maybe they'd rather hear it from this person, because they have more knowledge, they can say it better, they're better trusted or liked, or they outrank you. Any one of these reasons could cause the scenario you outlined at the start, Bebop. Or what I think the scenario was, since you did post a fantasy, and not a log.
Please do not forget that while sexism does not exist on Zalanthas hatred, discrimination and prejudice do. It is typical of a Zalanthan to openly scorn that which he dislikes.
That said:
I believe the majority of the blame for this particular, real world seepage is that women characters stay in the same roles. Most of the females in game have the same (delicate/in city/indoor) jobs and are dressed in a feminine manner, yes, even you warrior types with your earrings and your silk scarves around your ankles and your chokers and rings. Women characters seem to live longer than male characters, could that be because of the people behind the characters?
Unfortunately, if you're playing a female character and are the toughest baddest, roughest mekillot slayer roaming the not-so-free sands you're still gonna be called a bitch. A whore on Zalanthas still meets with raised eyebrows. Women still act catty towards other women. Complaining about it, while it may bring light to the trickle of RW into GW and might make a few people reconsider their characters actions it will still continue until.
Is there a solution? I don't think so, not until we the players change.
We could try not playing the stereotypical female roles. If you make a burglar in hopes that you'll steal from a templar for the love of Tek don't become his fucking aide. And if you're gonna use your sexuality/looks/delicacy to worm your way to the top don't complain about people calling you a whore.
ShaLeah
-who thinks the only way to make the world used to something it to make it happen for yourself... even if it means over and over and over ad nauseum again...
I wish that we were not so gung-ho about equality herebetween the sexes. The reason sexism will always exist in the real world is because we will always feel alien to the opposite sex, because there are differences not withstanding physically. Emotionally, psychologically, even chemically, we are different.
In the Wheel of Time novels and a few others, women have the upper hand in the world. In many fantasy worlds, men have the upper hand. It varies from world to world, but in every series of books, just about, there is sexism, and not because one sex is weaker than the other, but because they are different in other ways. In many fantasy worlds, women let the brawn do the brawn, and women do the thinking.
I am perfectly aware of the policies here about sexism, and I do my level best to adapt to them and play like I should. But every time something happens that people even suspect is sexism, one of these threads pop up, and we jump right back into the rampant confusion and discussion about which sexism is ok and which isn't. If we were not so bloody focused on preventing it, our roles would probably be a little more fun.
I do not like being told that I am sexist for thinking of that dainty little girl as pretty. I don't think it's really fair or accurate. I don't think that a woman who thinks a man can't do the job should be punished, because men do tend to scheme less and run through walls more. Even in Zalanthan history there appears to be sexism. How many of the figureheads of the timeline are female?
Shit, by simple biological process, women are the caretakers of the world, here or in RL. They carry a child for 9 bleeding months, or however long they do it in Armageddon. I don't think it's wrong for either a man or a woman to be a stay-at-home parent, and for the other to earn their bread. But it is wrong, to me, when people accuse the other of sexism for happening to fall into their biological role, such as men being brawns and women being smart, the fore taking charge and the latter ducking back. And why do I say this in Armageddon, where the actual PCs might not be different at all? Because the players are different. The RW players are different from one another.
Why can't we simply say there is no standard at all, rather than hammering equality into the ground? Sexism exists on both sides of the fence, male and female, and I see no real reason it shouldn't, other than some misguided intention to make this world different. I don't feel that we should be so bleeding obsessed with it.
There is no standard at all for sexism, rather than there is no sexism. And to drive that point home, let's include more females in the History and in the Timeline.
Quote from: "ShaLeah"We could try not playing the stereotypical female roles. If you make a burglar in hopes that you'll steal from a templar for the love of Tek don't become his fucking aide. And if you're gonna use your sexuality/looks/delicacy to worm your way to the top don't complain about people calling you a whore.
Actually, I've never played a stereotypical female role and still had to deal with
sexism from pcs. Most of the female Armers I've known offline had a distinct
aversion to playing anything resembling the happy homemaker.
Is this something that's come up in recent years?
Quote from: "Intrepid"Phrases that you imply were in regards to your gender, did not fit into the situation; A la gender discrimination bleeding into an ic situation from the real world.
That's actually not what I meant at all. What I meant was hearing a phrase like "soft as a woman's hands" or something of that nature, not directly targetting a PC or anything. Just a saying that people will type in without really meaning that women are inferior or anything. It's just like when someone says sky-blue or something of that nature. I only saw a few real instances of sexism with that PC, and the majority of them were from new players.
EDITed to add: I am not saying that it doesn't happen, nor am I disregarding the trouble that anyone has had in that regard. Just stating my experience playing a female PC.
Gorilla - Whether you believe women are beneath you or whether it is realistic for women to be as strong as men is irrelevent to the fact that it is Game Policy that women ARE equal to men in Zalanthas. While it may or may not be true in the real world for Zalanthas it is true, so that women may have an equal opportunity to enjoy their characters on Armageddon as males. Be happy for that because if it wasn't there would probably be a lot less girls here if they didn't have the chance to play combat characters if they wanted, and a bunch of guys here without girls would just be creepy :P You need balance. Anyway, seriously, if you enjoy this game then you enjoy it for what it is. And the rule is women are equal to men in this game.
Sha - I agree with you, that is why I say I don't blame one gender for this. Women can act just as catty towards other females as men act sexist. :? And the only thing that will change is if the player base decides to. That is why I hope this reminder will make people think in regards to how they treat each other :)
Quote from: "Bebop"Gorilla - Whether you believe women are beneath you or whether it is realistic for women to be as strong as men is irrelevent to the fact that it is Game Policy that women ARE equal to men in Zalanthas. While it may or may not be true in the real world for Zalanthas it is true, so that women may have an equal opportunity to enjoy their characters on Armageddon as males. Be happy for that because if it wasn't there would probably be a lot less girls here if they didn't have the chance to play combat characters if they wanted, and a bunch of guys here without girls would just be creepy :P You need balance. Anyway, seriously, if you enjoy this game then you enjoy it for what it is. And the rule is women are equal to men in this game.
Amazing. You somehow picked out two things I never said and told me they didn't matter. I do not believe women are beneath me, or that they can't be as strong; I've said they were DIFFERENT, and that is true.
Well gee, if there is something wrong with being girly, then there must be something wrong with being manly.
I'm seeing a huge double-standard even from those who are claiming that sexism shouldn't exist. Act the role, not the gender. The problem isn't the girly girls or the manly men, it's that it's easy to forget the other types exist when they aren't as often played. Play what you damn well want, I know I will.
Let a female character act as girly or manly as she wants, and let a male character act as manly or girly as he wants. Don't discriminate them based on gender, discriminate them because they have funny ears or you think they're too crude for the job or they're too dainty to swing a sword. Girl OR guy.
It does not seem that difficult to me.
Quote from: "Delirium"It does not seem that difficult to me.
But it
is that difficult for a number of people, Del. There are people that are so
inured to this one aspect of society, so brainwashed in rl, that they'll never be able
to wrap their minds around this. Eris once made a comment to the effect of:
Sad, really. You guys can believe in eight foot tall humanoids with ropy, three foot
long legs, but you can't imagine men and women being treated equally.There are right ways to play this game and wrong ways. The people who are on this
thread rationalizing why their characters have even the slightest bit of sexism for
any reason are simply not playing the aspect, and therefore a significant portion of
the game, correctly. As Xygax said, it is as counter to the setting as an elf-riding
kank and will always be treated that way.
The people who do this will always be on the outside of the setting looking in.
In retrospect, I would say my biggest run in with sexism playing a female PC is that most male employers seem to size up whether you're worth mudsexxing first and foremost. This leads to the female PC sleeping with the male leader because, hey, who's going to say no to Lord Stiffy Borsail, and then everyone says they worked for all of their power and promotions in the bed room.
Granted, I played a fairly unattractive PC, so she didn't see as much of this, but there was always a moment when being hired, introduced to other leaders, etc. Fortunately for me, most of her career was spent under an incredible female leader, who was a great example of a balance between being strong and able, but still acting like a woman instead of a man. I still love you, super-female-leader-PC.
Yeah, I notice the female pc always gets the blame when the male pc is obviously
the main source of the problem.
That said, every one of my insane, pus-oozing, drooling, mutated, ugly pcs always
seems to have been flirted with by every male pc and even some female pcs.
People mistake a verbose description for being attractive.
Or good emoting. EVERYONE knows that good emotes means great mudsex!
:roll:
This thread has no happy ending.
Quote from: "Delirium"Or good emoting. EVERYONE knows that good emotes means great mudsex!
I soooooooooooo beg to differ :-P
Just like to point out something for everyone's consideration:
Why would anyone's char find a dainty person attractive in Zalanthas?
Some of you are arguing that it's okay for your char to be attracted to that type of man/woman/kank, but in a world that seems to me to be all about survival, I would think that in general the chars viewed as the most attractive would have traits that made them look hardy. Just a thought...
skeetdaddle: because they're so rare.
Anyway, I'm not really going to jump into this debate. I think the staff has said most of what I think on the matter, anyway.
But I did want to weigh in to note that, when I was in Blackwing, it was run by three very wonderful powerful female figures, who I still worship to this day. Two of them were even real OOC wimmin.
I think it's perfectly fair to use the player tool to issue a player complaint about a character's bad RP if they decide to push sexist mores into a game where sexism does not exist.
Send an unedited log. That's pretty impartial.
That depends on your class and upbringing, I think. Why would a noble want his wife to look rough? Why would a Byner want his mate to look dainty?
My point isn't that you should think this character is that, but rather that you shouldn't decide someone is being sexist because of their choice.
How come I always show up late to the girl threads after people like Delerium and Naiona always say exactly what I wanted to say?
In my own experience I haven't noticed any unexpected discrimination towards my characters. I played a silky fluffy aide who was treated like a weak, silky fluffy person... not because she was a woman, but because she obviously was no mercenary type. My next pc was a rough merc type, and again was treated exactly as that, the fact that she had breasts didn't seem to matter in her unit (except that a few of them would hit on her, which would be expected too.) After that I played another aide type who tried to let everyone think she was silky and fluffy, when really she wasn't. She was letting others underestimate her on purpose, because it made it that much easier to rob them blind without being suspect. In all three cases any judgements being made about my characters weren't because of their sex, but because of their lifestyle.
That's the distinction I think: sexism is bad, but judging somebody based on appearance certainly isn't. If you want to laugh at that slender, soft-skinned aide for looking weak, fine -- just remember that that should go for a male aide as well as a female one. On the same token, if your lithe, voloptuous sex-pistol is trying to join the Byn, I would EXPECT you to get laughed at and teased for looking more like a concubine than a Byn mercenary. You could always turn this to an advantage (never underestimate the power of making someone underestimate you), but again, it isn't sexism.
Quotevoloptuous sex-pistol
That's one of the hottest phrases I have ever heard.
The ability to make other folk under estimate you is one of the most powerful non-code skills there is. Naturally if you play a lot of 'dual' roles it is sometimes refreshing to play a WYSWYG role.
I can attest that Ale Six did this well and many kudos for her on that score.
All right, fluffy stuff aside and back to the arguably misunderstood (on my part) point.. I think most serious military folk, male or female should be quickly adopting the mindset of 'Us' vs 'Them' attitude.
I wonder if cutting down on some of the gender cues would cut down on sexism? What if we just decided that reproductive function wasn't that important?
For example, the dark-haired, blue-eyed elf will often be assumed to be male. You hardly ever see a male elf whose sdesc contains the word "male" or any dominantly male key words. When is the last time you saw a male character with "bulging croched" in his sdesc? :D But you also hardly ever see a female elf whose sdesc doesn't directly indicate that she is female. Usually it is simply by including "female elf" but sometimes it might be something like "curvaceous elf" and most people will assume she is female because males are rarely described as being curvy. That means that when the male elf talks, emotes or does any coded action everyone is reminded that he is an elf but when a female elf does the same things everyone is reminded that she is a female elf. Male elves are elves, female elves are females.
What if female characters also left off the gender tag, the way that male characters usually do? You aren't the "female elf" the "buxom dwarf" or the "curvaceous mul" but instead are just an elf, dwarf or mul. Don't be a half-giantess, be a half-giant. Don't be a woman or man, be a human. I'm not saying don't be buxom, curvaceous or even bulging-croched, just leave it out of the sdesc, so it isn't tossed out there as one of your character's most important characteristics every time you perform any coded actions. Make it easier for other players to ignore what is in your pants at the times when it isn't important.
Why is "mister" usually considered out of place but "miss" is ok? If you want to show respect for a non-noble male all you have to work with is "sir". If you want to show respect for a non-noble female you are left with the much weaker choices of: miss, madam, ma'am, or mam. Why are they weaker choices? Because both "madam" and "mistress" (the long form of miss) are titles in the sex trade. I say we neuter "sir" and drop "madam/mistress" altogether. You can call your boss sir regardless of whether it is a boy or a girl, especially in military clans. Having all military officers use "sir" seems pretty common in science fiction.
Likewise, "Lady" is weaker than "Lord". They should be equal, but they are not.
Lord = member of the nobility who has a penis.
Lady = member of the nobility who has a vagina, or any person who has a vagina.
Lord is used mostly for noble men (and occasionally for gamers and goths that want to be particularly pretentious). "Lady" can refer to any woman. IRL you often hear the phrase "ladies and gentlemen" but hardly ever "ladies and lords" or "gentlewomen and gentlemen". "Lady" has had all the nobility sucked right out of it, it has been demoted. Queen is weaker than King, which is why Queen Elizabeth is married to a prince, not a king. When one of her grandsons takes the throne he will be King, and his wife will be Queen, not Princess. I'm not sure anything can be done about "Lady" except to make it completely off limits to all non-noble women. You could easily drop the lord/lady prefix before "Templar". And northern nobles could shift from being "Chosen Lord/Lady" to just being "Chosen". But there is no obvious way for southern nobles to get their due rank without also having their naughty bits commented on. So we have to keep calling them "Member of the Nobility who has a Penis Oash" and "Member of the Nobility who has a Vagina Borsail." :roll:
* * *
I think it is worth noting that many qualities perceived to be feminine are actually infantile. Giggling isn't something that females do, it is something that children do. Smooth skin isn't something females have, it is something children have. Females aren't helpless, children are helpless. Females don't need to be protected, children need to be protected.
In our world women are more likely to consciously or unconsciously adopt infantile characteristics, possibly because female fertility is linked to youth much more than male fertility. As youths both males and females may attempt to look older, because they want to be treated as adults rather than children. In early adult hood that mostly stops. Then a little further along in females start trying to appear younger, something that is fairly uncommon for males. A 30 year old woman may try to look like a teenager, but a 30 year old man probably won't. Some men even grow a beard specifically to avoid looking young.
When you see a smooth-skinned person giggling, try to remember that they are acting childish, not feminine. A guy with boobs is feminine, a guy that giggles is just childish. A chick with boobs is feminine, a chick that giggles is just childish.
Both men and women may adopt childish characteristics. Being small, cute, smooth-skinned, big-eyed, playful, and generally looking young sends the message "I am helpless. Protect me! Take care of me!" It is hard wired into mammals, to the point that mammals may even take care of members of other species if they display infantile characteristics. On Earth women may be more likely to display infantile characteristics and try to get others to take care of them. In Zalanthas there is no reason why it wouldn't happen equally with both sexes. And there is no reason why either or male or female who gets treated as a pampered pet because of those apparently infantile characteristics can't actually be competent and deadly. It is much more common for female than male PCs to attempt to look cute and helpless (sometimes doing so deliberately to gain advantage) but I think that is because of RL preconceptions leaking in. Pretty boys should be as common as pretty girls.
Angela Christine
Quote from: "ShaLeah"
We could try not playing the stereotypical female roles. If you make a burglar in hopes that you'll steal from a templar for the love of Tek don't become his fucking aide. And if you're gonna use your sexuality/looks/delicacy to worm your way to the top don't complain about people calling you a whore.
Whereas I agree, I don't think it's the players who are playing the 'delicate, feminine' roles that are complaining. But rather some people who met one of those female characters, and then assume
every female is like that, which doesn't go down well with the next female character. Personally, I often find sexism, if there's any, rather useful against the same people.
Quote from: "Angela Christine"
I think it is worth noting that many qualities perceived to be feminine are actually infantile. Giggling isn't something that females do, it is something that children do. Smooth skin isn't something females have, it is something children have. Females aren't helpless, children are helpless. Females don't need to be protected, children need to be protected.
Depends on which culture you are talking about, I suppose. I'm aware of at least two cultures that perceive those characteristics as feminine. However, the game might be different, don't know enough yet.
I merely think that it's more of a problem with players over generalize than how females emote their roles, which isn't really a problem as it can be solved icly easily. Sometimes with grusome results.
While getting rid of sexism on Zalanthas is a nice idea, it's just not going to work - at least, not in the way a number of people on this thread think it will. And here's why.
Even in a world without sexism, you're still going to have the rough/dainty divide. And everyone seems to have accepted this, and be okay with it. And they're right to be okay with it, because to someone doing hard, dangerous work, dainty looks pretty close to squeamish, and the last thing you want is the person who's supposedly got your back to be squeamish.
Now comes the kicker. Every human culture in the history of this planet has associated dainty with female, rough with male. This doesn't stop at looks. Typically feminine body language slides right into our "dainty" classification, typically masculine body language into "rough". Typically feminine habits of adornment are seen as dainty, the masculine lack of such are rough. This means that anyone who ornaments himself or herself too extravagantly for what's normal in the situation or is even a little dainty in body language is going to get stick from his or her fellow grunts.
And that's not the end of it. Men play dominance games. They jostle to be Alpha Male. Anyone who wants to hold the respect of male subordinates has to play those games too. (And yes, I'd classify Margaret Thatcher as a very pronounced Alpha Male). This again is helped by masculine body language; large exaggerated movements, taking up all the space, conveying assertiveness. Men treat personal space as territory, and lay claim to it by sprawling out. But it goes beyond body language.
There are two main threads to the Alpha Male contention, I think; one is intimidation, one is competition. The first is what comes into play before either is fully aware of the other's abilities; it's a test of assertiveness, of probing for weaknesses. A sergeant meeting a new recruit is quite possibly going to give him hell just to see how he reacts. And this is again where feminine instincts often fail, because conciliatory approaches are seen as submissive approaches, when what's needed to stake out territory is self-possession and sometimes even aggression.
Competition allows you to win respect over time. When it becomes apparent that yes, you really are that damn good, the pecking order shifts to accomodate this, and the more assertiveness you have to back this up, the more it shifts. Unfortunately, not everyone is going to be as perceptive as you'd like, and you may need to force the comparison home to ensure they're left in no doubt as to your superior abilities.
So, to come back to the original point: you can eradicate sexist phrases from people's speech, you can remove preconceptions about looks, but the unpleasant fact remains that if a female wants to fit right in with a group of combatants straight off, she has to act like a male to do so. And that's the only way it can be unless we completely rewrite the fundamentals of human social interaction. (Before someone suggests this: No, that's never going to work.) Worse than this, if you want to rise quickly and gain power in a group without "sleeping your way to the top", you have to play the dominance games and effectively be a man in a woman's body.
Also, to throw in a little agreement with ShaLeah, even eradicating preconceptions isn't helped at all by having plenty of PC females who live up to those preconceptions.
Told you I was back...
Quote from: "Bebop""F-Me PCs" While I think that Sanvean covered this in the last thread, so "tastefully" dedicated to F-me PCs, I still think that mindset is still there with our players.
Agreed. Combatting the mindset has made for interesting character ideas as well for me (both female and male. Yes, I am a gender bender ;) So watch out for me if you don't like mudsexing with males playing females :twisted:)
Quote from: "Bebop""Jihea and Lirathu"
I do think it a shame that the staff didn't take advantage of the opportunity to go against the "women don't do combat" stereotype with the Orders.
Quote from: "Malifaxis"I've noticed that primarily on Armageddon there isn't much sexism.
There is one form of sexism that no-one has brought up. The sexism that favours women. When I was a newbie I tried out playing a woman. It was
boring thanks to the playerbase. Where I received little help before, I was inundated with help. The game became easy and boring :P So for a long while I stayed away from playing women. I'm glad to say that after a recent foray into the female role, I almost didn't see this behaviour. I
do see it from time to time with the occassional player. But I'm confident they'll eventually learn.
Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"
GET AN ACCOUNT NAME!
*ahem*
Quote from: "Gorilla J"if everyone was the same, what would there be to attract a mate, or similar things?
Like all those homosexuals who just have absolutely no sexual attraction to anyone ;) The sexes can be equal (and the same) without causing sexual attraction to dissapear.
Quote from: "Malifaxis"The male/female physiology is structurally different. However women can grow just as strong, be just as pigheaded, or stink just as much if they put their minds to it.
Err..... They don't have to put their mind to it, just as men don't.
Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"Do you think we have women haters on this board?
Quote from: "Malifaxis"I'm male, and I'm a misogynist.
Quote from: "Xygax"What we're telling you, as a matter of staff policy is that sexism doesn't exist on Zalanthas[/b]. We're not saying "in general it doesn't happen," we're saying "it doesn't exist."
I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for clearing it up :)
Quote from: "LoD"Why don't the men wear the rings and trinkets
I know
I don't because I don't have enough 'sid when playing males :(
Quote from: "Halaster":arrow: Would men and women still want privacy from the opposite sex when going to the bathroom?
IMO no. I feel that's backed up by the public urinals in Allanak and the fact that there is only one Byn latrine
Quote from: "Halaster":arrow: Would men and women still want privacy from the opposite sex when changing clothes?
No, and I back that up with the fact that there's only one barracks in every single clan. Sure you can hop under covers or hide against a wall. But eventually people will see something (ESPECIALLY if a noble walks in while you're in the middle of dressing) and the stigma will go away.
Having said that, when not going to the bathroom or getting dressed (the latter only occuring in designated areas), most civilized places discourage public nudity (Tuluk and Allanak).
Quote from: "Halaster"There is a difference in male and female and so it's only natural, on some level, that differences in how each other is treated takes place.
That's an extremely dangerous road to go down. I won't say it's wrong (until you've said how you treat them differently) but I will say it's dangerous and very easily leads to sexism. I do treat everyone I'm not sexually attracted to, the same. How I treat people I'm sexually attracted to depends on how attracted I am. And no, I'm not attracted to every single female I see ;)
Quote from: "Halaster"How do we, as players, move ourselves beyond this?
To a degree I don't think we should. If you're attracted to someone, IMO you treat them differently. But you don't assume all women are weak and need protecting. You might be protective of the person you have feelings for, but that isn't every single opposite-sex PC you see.
Quote from: "Bebop"The point is just because someone is womanly or feminine and doesn't want to RP scratching their crotch and spitting doesn't mean they can't be respected or codedly kick butt. If someone is being petty treat them like their petty sure, but I think woman still can be and should be allowed to be feminine but strong.
Actually I disagree. If you want to act like a weak Earth woman then that will affect how I act towards you. I'll react the same regardless of if your man or woman, but I will react a certain way, if you behave a certain way. If you want to get respect amongst a group of groin-scratchers you'd better scratch that groin. And if you are a fighter that doesn't have a single scar. Then that will affect how I act towards you.
Quote from: "Lizzie"it's because I want her to be seen as "delicately feminine." That doesn't mean she can't kick your ass from Tuluk to Allanak and back.
Actually my characters will think it does. If anyone (regardless of gender) acts in such a manner, I will draw assumptions onto your fighting prowess. You want me to think you're tough? Act tough. I personally see giggling (no matter who does it) as a manner for the physically weak. Batting your eyelashes to get your own way means that it is a tool you're more use to then using your fists and muscles, which means your not as good with using them. I'd personally be suspect of
any tough person batting their eyelashes. If you want to attract someone, show off those muscles you developed as easily as my man did.
Quote from: "Marauder Moe"Can we say, though, that woman on Zalanthas do have a tendancy toss their hair, giggle, and wear more fine clothes and jewelry than men, yet aren't discriminated against? Can we say that a female Byn sergeants kick just as much ass as any male sergeant, yet spend more time on average cleaning their armor? Can we say that women like to talk about feelings more than men but that doesn't affect how good a leader one is? Can we say that in monogamous relationships with children, men tend to take the providor role while the women manage the home, and not have people look down at her for a lack of a formal employment?
IMO, no. Can women and men behave differently? Sure. But, IMO, they don't behave in those manners. And no, I don't know how they can act differently.
Quote from: "Bebop"You don't have to like everyone but a person doesn't have to be masculine to be respected or fit in. That is sexist to say that they must behave like a man to get respect
That hasn't been said. They're saying that they have to behave in a particular manner to be respected.
Part of the problem is (as someone pointed out) RL men have been tough and RL women have been physically weak (gross generalisation). So in-game people that act tough, must act like RL men. People in-game that act physically weak, must act as RL women. I can see why people would have a problem with that, but I don't want your "ooh! I broke a nail" <whatever> to be as respected as my "There's some kank piss in this? Who cares" <whatever>, without having to constantly prove it.
The place where the "no sexism" clause comes in is, I won't assume you're physically weak just because you're a woman. I'll assume it if you behave in a particular manner.
Quote from: "Bebop"That's the point of the thread, to remind people not to have that kind of disposition that you don't have to be masculine to get respect.
If you define masculine as acting tough, and everyone agrees with you (including the staff), then the "no sexism" crowd has just lost a supporter. Fortunately it seems very few people agree with you :)
Quote from: "Bebop"Man on Zalanthas can play frilly guys and do work if they want to.
As someone who quite often plays "frilly guys", I never expect to be respected by Byn-types.
Quote from: "Bebop"My point is that just because a woman doesn't have a masculine appearance or attitude doesn't mean she isn't as strong is a man.
As an IRL weak male and often an in-game weak male, I just have to disagree with this so much (if you define "one of the guys" to be one of the fighters).
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"In the Wheel of Time novels and a few others, women have the upper hand in the world.
*snicker*
The author actually tried to create a world where the sexes were equal ;) Not equal as in Armageddon, but equal overall (as in the amount of places where women had the upper hand was balanced out by the amount of places where the men had the upper hand. Or the men have the upper hand in certain situations while the women have the upper hand in other situations).
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"Even in Zalanthan history there appears to be sexism. How many of the figureheads of the timeline are female?
Again that's RW seepage into GW. Just because the staff and players and haven't been perfect, doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
Quote from: "Delirium"Or good emoting. EVERYONE knows that good emotes means great mudsex!
Err... wouldn't it? What is mudsex? Emoting out sex. I'd be surprised if someone suddenly became a terrible emoter while mudsexing (then again, I'd think they were typing one-handed and never mud sex with them again :shock:)
Quote from: "skeetdaddle"Why would anyone's char find a dainty person attractive in Zalanthas?
They want someone they can physically overpower? I've had many characters (female heterosexuals, homosexual males, bisexual males and heterosexual males*) who preferred dainty people. It's a physiology type I am sometimes attracted to. Just as sometimes I'm attracted to fat people. While other times I'm attracted to masculine people.
Quote from: "Angela Christine"For example, the dark-haired, blue-eyed elf will often be assumed to be male.
All of my dwarves are female and have no indication in their sdesc. Take that you assuming players :twisted:
Quote from: "Angela Christine"When is the last time you saw a male character with "bulging croched" in his sdesc? :D
Main descs should have things that are easily seen when clothed. The fact is breasts are more easily seen then penises when clothed. So therefore breasts are much more likely to appear in sdescs then penises.
Quote from: "Angela Christine"Why is "mister" usually considered out of place but "miss" is ok?
I don't have a problem with either.
Quote from: "Angela Christine"Why are they weaker choices? Because both "madam" and "mistress" (the long form of miss) are titles in the sex trade. I say we neuter "sir" and drop "madam/mistress" altogether.
No thanks ;) I hated it in Star Trek when "sir" was used to refer to women. I'd sit there and say "Did you by any chance miss her two large breasts?" (As all Star Trek women were large breasted :P)
Quote from: "Angela Christine"Lady = member of the nobility who has a vagina, or any person who has a vagina.
Not in Zalanthas it isn't :twisted: (If you do it and I feel it's an OOC slip that you rarely make I'll ignore it though).
Quote from: "Angela Christine"Giggling isn't something that females do, it is something that children do.
Thankyou!
Quote from: "Quirk"Told you I was back...
Glad to have you back :D
* I figure there's enough gender-bender males playing bi/homo women ;)
NOTE: I play non-sexist characters, in my personal opinion. No matter what I as a player feel like, I try very hard to have my characters assume the Armageddon Experience. In no way is my opinion as stated below a reflection of my role-playing style, as I am one who believes that documentation should be followed. I fully support the staff in their decisions, even if I personally disagree with them.
Take the following for what it is worth, an opinion.
The struggle to eliminate sexism from Armageddon is stupid. This policy of no sexism no matter what makes no sense at all. We have racism in the world, blatant and pushed racism, and to push a no sexism view in the face of that is ... fool-hardy, to say the least.
I have always been for equality as a whole, and I always will be, but to pretend that there is no difference between men and women is insane. The two sexes are simply not the same. In Zalanthas, I understand that men and women have the same potential, both physically and mentally, and i fully support that and even push that. But despite that, there are still going to be differences emotionally and from time to time biologically.
Women have periods, emotional swings because of biological functions, not the least of those menopause, tender breasts from childbearing, lacating nipples from birthing, a swollen gut from pregnancy, a general need to squat when pissing, and I am sure I am missing other things.
Men have erections when aroused, more physical body hair, more body odor problems, more testosterone, the growing chance for inability to perform sexually as they grow older, the inability to provide a baby with food from their own body, and the chance to have all of their reproductive organs scrapped or chafed if not gathered in properly. I am missing things about men that are different too, but mainly because I can't think of them all.
The point of it all is that men and women are different. It matters little what anyone decrees or pushes, they simply are. To tell me it's wrong ICly for someone to not be able to dislike men because they are men, or to not be able to think a women can do or can't do something a man can or can't do, or to not be able to sterotype the opposite sex, when we dislike elves because they are elves or won't hire a dwarf because they are a dwarf, or assume that all muls dance with insanity or are beasts. It makes no bleeding sense, even in the grand scheme of things.
I think it's far better for us to abandon the there is no sexism on Zalanthas, and instead push forward the there is almost no sexism on Zalanthas instead. Encourage people to not be sexist, but don't say there is none and there will be none tolerated. Make the point poiant that sexism is stupid for multiple reasons, but don't say it doesn't exist.
For example, whore should apply to men and women alike, and there should be no disdain in it for anyone to be called a whore, a prefectly fine way to make a living. However, a particular character may not like women whores, or male whores, but be fine with the other, perhaps because a male whore killed his father, or reversed. Perhaps he caught ticks from one sex or the other or perhaps his mother was one, and she was a bitch. The point is, why should that be a no-no? It's a perfectly logical reason to hate a whore and use the word as an insult, yet we can't do that, because there is no sexism in Zalanthas, and this is sexism.
Perhaps your female warrior is protective of all males because she doesn't think they can do what she can. She's not met a single one who can hold their own with her in a battle, but she's seen the women in the unit fight, and they all bust ass, generally men's asses. So she tucks men in the back of a fight, and herds her chicks forward. She looks at all men, even those not in her unit or company, as weaker than women, because to her they are. She's got proof, to her. The female warrior could just as easily be a male, and the sexes reversed. The point is, that's sexism, and yet it's very much in character, but can't be condoned because there is no sexism on Zalanthas.
Saying sexism doesn't exist or can't exist, rather, fails for those examples above and many more. Saying sexism is unusual, on the other hand, is much more of an accurate statement.
There is almost no sexism on Zalanthas.[/u]
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"
There is almost no sexism on Zalanthas.[/u]
I wholeheartedly agree with that approach, even though it goes against what other staff members say. To say sexism doesn't exist is simply not true, because it
does exist, because players do it. I'm not saying they should, but they do. As this thread has clearly shown, people do sexist things in the game. They don't mean to - it's usally an honest mistake with RL bleeding in. Most players, like myself, when they realize they're doing it, will stop. I just don't always realize I'm doing something that's based on preconceptions of a gender.
I don't believe that makes me hopelessly sexist in RL, either. In RL people treat men and women differently, because that's just a fact of life. We bend reality to play this game, however, and have setup an entirely different world. Is it "sad", as one poster said? No. It's fact.
Quote from: "John"Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"In the Wheel of Time novels and a few others, women have the upper hand in the world.
*snicker*
The author actually tried to create a world where the sexes were equal ;) Not equal as in Armageddon, but equal overall (as in the amount of places where women had the upper hand was balanced out by the amount of places where the men had the upper hand. Or the men have the upper hand in certain situations while the women have the upper hand in other situations).
I understand that, but the point I really failed to make there was that despite his best efforts, there is still a bleeding image. In his world, there is an image of women being in power, no matter what he intended. In other words, he failed, as we do now.
There is no way to defeat sexism. Whether we as players agree or don't agree to try, we can never take it out, and that is a fact, and I think that the unsuing and constant battle to do so only intensifies the awareness that there even is sexism. In all honesty, I hardly ever really notice it in-game, unless I just read one of these threads. Maybe it's because I am innured to it in RL, but I sorta doubt that's it.
The reason, I think, that I don't notice it, is that it exists only for people who
go out of their way to attract it, and in that case, it is deserved. Additionally, the more we try to erase it, the more we will feel like playing this game is a flaming chore, rather than a joy.
Get rid of the DOES NOT EXIST state of mind and adopt the ALMOST DOESN"T EXIST state of mind. It will ease nearly everybody's minds about the entire thing.
DISCLAIMER: In no way should this post be considered a stab at the staff for the policies they have created. Instead, it is a stab at the policy itself, which I strongly suggest you play by while it stands as it does.
DISCLAIMER #2: The reason I post these disclaimers on these sorts of posts is because invariably, either a member of staff, or a player, both with good intentions most probably, will berrate me for voicing an opinion seemingly aimed at the staff's actions, and which seemingly espouses something akin to, if not like to, rebellion. I wish to make it clear, especially to newbies who may not yet be familiar with my style of conversing and might take it the wrong way, that I encourage organized community change, not reckless individual rebellion.
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"There is almost no sexism on Zalanthas.[/u]
The same way that there was
almost no focusless dwarves at one point in Armageddon's history. Just because players bring in their OOC views doesn't mean they should. The staff have said there is to be no sexism. If you (not you 7DV, but you in the general sense) do bring sexism into the game, you're breaking the staff's rules and may (or may not, depending on the situation) have it be a point against you.
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"To tell me it's wrong ICly for someone to not be able to dislike men because they are men, or to not be able to think a women can do or can't do something a man can or can't do......when we dislike elves because they are elves or won't hire a dwarf because they are a dwarf, or assume that all muls dance with insanity or are beasts. It makes no bleeding sense, even in the grand scheme of things.
Makes perfect sense to me. RL women don't want to have to suffer discrimination in-game. The RL muls, elves and dwarves (as in people who are of a different race to homo sapiens) are welcome to write into the mud and complain though. I imagine if enough did, saying how they felt discriminated against, that the staff would change their policy to be more inclusive.
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"I think it's far better for us to abandon the there is no sexism on Zalanthas, and instead push forward the there is almost no sexism on Zalanthas instead.
Why not push a third option "There should be no sexism on Zalanthas and any player who deliberately does so is going against the rules of the mud and might be docked Karma for doing so"? Or you know, we can just get rid of the "no focusless dwarves" rule and just have the staff encourage dwarves to have focuses.
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"It's a perfectly logical reason to hate a whore and use the word as an insult, yet we can't do that, because there is no sexism in Zalanthas, and this is sexism.
A) No it isn't. Although if you only hate whores of gender <X> then it is.
B) It's perfectly logical for my character to rape yours. But unless I have your consent, I can't. The staff have OOC rules that limit what we can do in order for players to be able to enjoy the game the most.
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"Get rid of the DOES NOT EXIST state of mind and adopt the ALMOST DOESN"T EXIST state of mind.
No. Not unless the staff make a policy change, and even then I'll only grudgingly accept it.
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"In no way should this post be considered a stab at the staff for the policies they have created. Instead, it is a stab at the policy itself, which I strongly suggest you play by while it stands as it does.
Understood. My post also wasn't a stab at how you play or you personally ;)
It will never end. Just a constant attack on all channels. :x
Why not just take Arm a step further into fantasy and replace the genders with a single, sexless being called the Fnord. Babie Fnords can be delivered by blackrobed templars with little wings. Problem solved for ever.
I will now go and vent my ire by driving aggressively on the highway.
Whew! We're somewhere on page six! And I read the whole damn thing.
Until recently, I was teaching Intro to Cultural Anthropology at a community college. Teaching the chapter on gender was always a nightmare.
Explaining the difference between Sex (biological) and Gender (cultural) would ofter be about as effective as stopping a freight train with a feather. And I'm not talking about combatting sexist assumptions, only about pointing it out.
Many, many, many of the things that we classify as "natural" under "sex" are really part of "gender." And the confusion comes because things that we learn through our culture are experienced as "natural" to us.
In our culture, it is often assumed that if something is "cultural" it is therefore not as real as something that is "biological." To this I say, "When we move something out of the category of physical science and into the realm of culture, we have simply moved it from the most powerful force in the universe to the second most powerful force in the universe."
That being said, my characters in general tend to be heterosexual and male. And they are protecttive of their possible mates, if those mates need taking care of. Once, long ago, one of my characters had a relationship with a Byn lieutenant. I'll tell you, he never once made the assumption that she couldn't take care of herself. Some of my male characters have served under female leaders. He never made the assumption that he could do the job better, unless he could.
In the game, we don't have to deal with biology, or even with most of culture. We don't have to deal with pheremones, or subtle physical cues. All we have is the text. If we are making sexist assumptions, we are bringing them from our own beliefs and thoughts. Even if there is a biological difference, the biology of Armageddon is "The Code," which is clearly non-sexist.
Morrolan
Code does not cover real differences between men and women. If it did, then we could draw all sorts of conclusions based on the results of the code. Since it doesn't, we have to base the uncoded on reality.
To counter your argument further, Morrolan, you could apply the same precepts to sweating as you do to no biological differences. It's not coded, yet you know perfectly well that standing still under the hot sun in the middle of the desert will bring sweat to your skin, even if it's not much. It's not coded, but it's a fact. It's not coded, but we know perfectly well that a woman is designed to be a caretaker of children, if for no other fact than a woman has the ability to feed a child healthy substances from their bodies, without mutation or some other odd thing. Whether it is coded or not, it is true, yet to look at a woman as a caretaker by nature is looked upon as sexism, and it is, this sterotype, yet it can not be argued against.
If the Code did encompass what are only realistic biological functions for a male and a female, the argument against any sexism existing in Zalanthas would have even less to hold on to.
And I don't ever want to hear any sort of argument for sexless again. That is ... no.
Even though I am sure that was a joke.
Quote from: "Halaster"Is it "sad", as one poster said? No. It's fact.
Not to mince words here, Halaster, but: Facts can be sad.
Part of the problem is, and I realize I keep coming back to this--but only because
it's a trainwreck everyone keeps politely ignoring, is that a frilly man is still going
to get the benefit of the doubt far more than a frilly woman. In a dangerous world
like Zalanthas, where death is coming for you from any direction (even that frilly
direction to your immediate northwest that you've dismissed), the notion that a
woman constantly has to prove herself in areas where a man is blithely accepted
is at the very core of what sexism actually is. Why does a woman in the Byn have
to kick everyone's asses to be accepted when the man doesn't, to continue an
example provided earlier in the thread? If the ladder to climb to respect or even
acceptance is longer to get to the same place for a woman than it is a man, then
it is a failing of the players projecting a sexist attitude, not some duty to the female
player to actually climb farther, faster and better to prove herself; if I have to
something like that, I didn't prove myself your equal, I proved myself your superior.
In the end, it has nothing to do with roughness or daintiness or grabbing your crotch
like an 80s hair band lead singer. Those have to do with upbringing, and just because
the Byn made it fashionable to do does not mean that everyone acts like a pig; it's
a misconception that makes me wonder if maybe the Byn is fast becoming a
poor choice for newbies, as we seem to have people thinking that all of Armageddon
espouses their views solely or they're not really part of the game (to quote one
particular fanatic from a month or two ago).
I do not agree that men are accepted in dangerous situations any more than a women is. I do not see it, you understand. Maybe I'll play a woman after this, to fully understand things from all angles.
I personally think that many of you grasp at straws to embody the opinions you've had of situations that often were only one-time or happenstance. Now, every time your woman or man encounters difficulty or opinions, it's for the same reason in your mind, even when you can not understand why it is occuring from any standpoint but your own.
Should you term being upset that another character slept her/his way to the top while you had to fight for your position sexism? Yes, under the current standard. But why? It's illogical to call this disallowed sexism. You should be pissed that you had to work harder for your position than that scullywag, and that scullywag should be ahead of you if she/he pleased the boss more. If the boss liked action more than sex, you would be ahead of that scullywag. It's logical, it's not unfiar sexism, yet now it seems as though sleeping your way to the top is looked down upon as caving in to sexism, when it should not be looked upon as anything other than using your available assets.
Are you telling me that you dare tell me that my character can't care for a dainty woman more than a tough woman because you think it's sexism? No, no, no. You can't tell me what I like or what my character should like ... that goes against the entire air of the game. You can't tell me why I like a certain thing. I just do.
There are so many things which fall under sexism, that are not hinderances to roleplay, the conflict we all love, and has nothing whatsoever to do with making women warriors weak or male aides incapable, that it's impossible to mention them all or give examples of them all.
Likewise, it's impossible to take sexism out of the game. It's equally impossible to deny sexism its proper place in Zalanthan interaction.
Sexism almost does not exist in Zalanthas.
It's not a Western view of the world. It is a pillar of logic.
And John, comparing Rape and Sexism seems ... off, just a tad.
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"It's not coded, but we know perfectly well that a woman is designed to be a caretaker of children, if for no other fact than a woman has the ability to feed a child healthy substances from their bodies, without mutation or some other odd thing. Whether it is coded or not, it is true, yet to look at a woman as a caretaker by nature is looked upon as sexism, and it is, this sterotype, yet it can not be argued against.
Many people take this argument farther, to say that
therefore a woman who does not bear and raise children is not fulfilling her biological purpose/fulfilling the Will of God/pick your reductionist theory and is therefore less of a woman.
I know perfectly well that bearing children is one possible role women can accept that men cannot. I also know that this is a role most common in intensive agricultural societies, and limited in other cultures. It is not a woman's natural role as a caretaker that creates sexism; it is differential access to resources such as food production, training, and freedom of travel.
A woman might be "designed" to be a bearer of children, but I strongly believe that to go from this assumption to the assumption that all women are therefore harnessed to this one goal is the worst form of reductionism. A man might be "designed" to be a provider/protector, but to assume that this is the only true "manliness" is the same form of reductionism.
And I will state that I am unequivocally against such reductionisms as overly simplistic: they do not recognize the variation within the categories of male and female. (This probably makes me a good liberal.) As a culture, the West is not far from the assumption that such beliefs are the
only gender norms...not more than 150 years at most, and in many cases not at all.
Morrolan
Quote from: "Intrepid"
Why does a woman in the Byn have to kick everyone's asses to be accepted when the man doesn't, to continue an example provided earlier in the thread?
I played twice in the Byn as a man, and neither time was I blindly accepted. I had to 'prove' myself to the others. So did the women around me. So, is your example actually something that has happened? I don't know, maybe it has, which is why I ask because my personal experience was the opposite (and I've oddly heard a lot of people saying that in this thread).
Quote from: "Intrepid"is that a frilly man is still going
to get the benefit of the doubt far more than a frilly woman.
The frilly man without status will be an object of derision, picked on until he dies or toughens up. The frilly woman will still be valued for her ability to bear and raise children. Who has it better?
Quote from: "John[quote="Anonymous kank with wings"
GET AN ACCOUNT NAME!
Quote
Why should I? Just to be like you?
What the hell difference does it make, having a "name" doesn't change my opinion.
Just because women are made for bearing children because of their physical make up, it does not mean that by Zalanthas rules women can not be equal to men. This is a fantasy game, and it's designed for fun and to give women an equal chance. I think despite what you may believe about women and their physical capabilities in the real world, you should dismiss them while playing because in Zalanthas, I woman has the same physical capabilities as a male. Like I mentioned before the only thing that would make you different is your genitals pretty much, and it just so happens that in Zalanthas, women are also the one that bear children. I don't know about all of you but I'm glad it's that way. But who knows what's possibly with magick. *snicker*
Quote from: "Halaster"I played twice in the Byn as a man, and neither time was I blindly accepted. I had to 'prove' myself to the others. So did the women around me. So, is your example actually something that has happened? I don't know, maybe it has, which is why I ask because my personal experience was the opposite (and I've oddly heard a lot of people saying that in this thread).
I've never played in the Byn, but this has happened to me twice: Once in a human
noble house (I was not playing a noble and was not frilly) and another time in an
elven clan, if you can imagine that.
This is sexism.
But, the woman. She has a use, even though most likely she's not up to bearing children in the first place, thus eliminating her usefulness biologically.
The man has no use biologically in the first place. However, he may be prized as a boy-toy for some burly women interested in dominating him, or by some man with the same desire.
However, if they play smartly, they both are equally useful, for biological use has no bearing on self-created use. They could become a spy, a hidden bomb, a dagger in intimate privacy, so forth and so on...
Both would be subject to derision by some elements and to addoration by others.
There would be sexism.
It would be completely in character.
But it is not something currently supported by policy.
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"The man has no use biologically in the first place.
Absolutely wrong, because women cannot have children without men.
Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"The frilly man without status will be an object of derision, picked on until he dies or toughens up. The frilly woman will still be valued for her ability to bear and raise children. Who has it better?
Again, I'm not talking about derision based on class differences; I have no problems
with people being classist or racist. I'm referring to the fact that I've seen situations
where two individuals with almost no differences except gender were treated
vastly different. It's sexism, whether it's acknowledged or not.
As for the ability to bear and raise children: So what? That takes nothing, quite
frankly. Both in rl and on Armageddon, idiots can and will get knocked up every day.
In cities with at least 400,000 people each, who cares if you have the ability to
add one more mouth to feed in the middle of a decaying, dying world? This is yet
another example of how I think our playerbase, as a result of sexism seeping into
the game from the real world, is developing an inability to full enjoy the setting as
it's been designed.
Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"The man has no use biologically in the first place.
Absolutely wrong, because women cannot have children without men.
I'm going to assume that
frilly meant feminine, yeh? If it did, my point stands. If it didn't, I stand aside.
If it did, he's not going to have children any way. She might. And Intrepid is right about this particular thing. But only this one.
Quote from: "Intrepid"Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"As for the ability to bear and raise children: So what? That takes nothing, quite
frankly. Both in rl and on Armageddon, idiots can and will get knocked up every day.
In cities with at least 400,000 people each, who cares if you have the ability to
add one more mouth to feed in the middle of a decaying, dying world?
You care, or at least your genes which are trying to procreate, do.
It may take 30 seconds to get a woman knocked up but it takes a huge investment of time and resources to raise a kid. Even if you as a male aren't willing to provide parental care for the child, the woman most likely will. In a primitive society, right away her own life is at risk. It's only in modern times that women don't face a significant chance of death during childbirth. Even if this isn't true in Zalanthas, it is of huge value to your genetic material that the woman will raise your child.
I have honestly never seen anyone be accepted immediately by a military clan. Generally, they beat you, laugh at you, and belittle you as much as they can, male or female, good fighter or bad. When it does happen, I imagine there could be an slew of reasons beyond one person having ovaries and the other person not. While sexism does happen IG occasionally, I think it is important to not look for it in every situation in which characters are treated differently.
Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"You care, or at least your genes which are trying to procreate, do.
The drive to have children is far more societal and far less instinctual than we're
willing to give credit to. It's bs that getting a woman pregnant makes you a man,
and just as bad that becoming pregnant makes you a woman. Human are not as
instinctual as we think we are. We just have a collection of societal mores that make
us think we are.
Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"It may take 30 seconds to get a woman knocked up but it takes a huge investment of time and resources to raise a kid. Even if you as a male aren't willing to provide parental care for the child, the woman most likely will. In a primitive society, right away her own life is at risk. It's only in modern times that women don't face a significant chance of death during childbirth. Even if this isn't true in Zalanthas, it is of huge value to your genetic material that the woman will raise your child.
And those very facts are exactly why having children shouldn't be considered some
be-all end-all gift to the world. You're replacing a functioning member of society with
a weak and helpless lump of flesh that, for all you know, could end up being a mage
or mindbender or mutant. Yuck. No thanks. Even selling the prospective child into
slavery does not make back the money you put into raising them.
Quote from: "bloodfromstone"I have honestly never seen anyone be accepted immediately by a military clan. Generally, they beat you, laugh at you, and belittle you as much as they can, male or female, good fighter or bad. When it does happen, I imagine there could be an slew of reasons beyond one person having ovaries and the other person not. While sexism does happen IG occasionally, I think it is important to not look for it in every situation in which characters are treated differently.
I was stating that there is a difference between what a woman has to do to be
accepted and what a man has to do to be accepted.
Quote from: "Intrepid"The drive to have children is far more societal and far less instinctual than we're willing to give credit to.
Societal?? The primary, if not only, genetic instruction that anything living has is to reproduce.
Take the social bit out of the equation and you have strictly reproduction and recombination.
(Sorry, haven't been following thread - but that one quote stuck out.)
Quote from: "Lazloth"Societal?? The primary, if not only, genetic instruction that anything living has is to reproduce.
Take the social bit out of the equation and you have strictly reproduction and recombination.
(Sorry, haven't been following thread - but that one quote stuck out.)
That's just it though, Laz--we have sex for mostly recreational purposes. Couples
trying to start a family are usually doing so consciously. The rest are accidents
from not utilizing protection. There's nothing instinctual about these situations.
Animals do have a drive to reproduce, yes. Animals also have a mating season. We
do not.
Quote from: "Intrepid"There's nothing instinctual about these situations.
Animals do have a drive to reproduce, yes. Animals also have a mating season. We
do not.
I would definitely say that the desire to have sex is instinctual. The only difference between us and animals is that we have the ability to supress those instinctual desires.
Call it the heat of passion, call it horniness, call it whatever you want, but humans have the same drive to reproduce as animals do.
7DV wrote:
QuoteI think it's far better for us to abandon the there is no sexism on Zalanthas, and instead push forward the there is almost no sexism on Zalanthas instead. Encourage people to not be sexist, but don't say there is none and there will be none tolerated. Make the point poiant that sexism is stupid for multiple reasons, but don't say it doesn't exist.
I think this is a terrible idea. I like the way the policy currently stands, and find this statement to be an attempt at using semantics to make sexism okay. Consider this: speeding is illegal. Speed limit signs are posted everywhere. Yet there are, and always will be, people who speed. Same with stealing. Same with a dozen other things. Why do we need to say there is almost no sexism in game when that is already the case? The rule is that there is supposed to be
absolutely no sexism, and yet it still happens anyway. To say that there is
almost no sexism in game is just one step closer to condoning it. Leave it the way it is, 'cause it's still gonna happen anyway, and at least it discourages the most outright blatant cases.
Quote from: "Cale_Knight"I would definitely say that the desire to have sex is instinctual. The only difference between us and animals is that we have the ability to supress those instinctual desires.
Call it the heat of passion, call it horniness, call it whatever you want, but humans have the same drive to reproduce as animals do.
That's not instinct. That's an urge brought on by chemical reactions in the body. We
actually have a number of differences from animals. One of them is our apparent
lack of instincts and another is our ability to override our emotional drive when it's
needed (not counting a few individual exceptions, of course). Horniness is no more
an instinct than my wanting a fruity pop from the fridge.
Quote from: "Melody"
Quote from: "Angela Christine"
I think it is worth noting that many qualities perceived to be feminine are actually infantile. Giggling isn't something that females do, it is something that children do. Smooth skin isn't something females have, it is something children have. Females aren't helpless, children are helpless. Females don't need to be protected, children need to be protected.
Depends on which culture you are talking about, I suppose. I'm aware of at least two cultures that perceive those characteristics as feminine. However, the game might be different, don't know enough yet.
I'm not talking about culture, I'm talking about biology.
Children do have smooth skin, smooth as a baby's bottom. Adult females may have smooth skin, they may also have rough skin, oily skin, pimply skin, leathery skin or wrinkled skin. Time and hormones are nasty things. All the skin cream in the world won't give you back the practically perfect skin possessed by nearly every 5 year old.
I suppose giggling is cultural, though babies seem to coo and giggle without knowing much about culture.
Children are helpless and in need of protection, that is biological. When adult females are helpless and in need of protection it is mostly cultural. And there is no compelling reason for Zalanthan cultures to have adopted the idea that females are helpless, since even the minor differences in strength seen between male and female humans on Earth don't exist in Zalanthas. For a relatively short period of time immediately before and after giving birth a woman may be in a particularly vulnerable condition, but unless "breeder" is her main function and she is kept run down by popping out new babies every year, most of the time she will be as physically competent as the menfolk.
* * *
It wouldn't bother me at all if males and females were coded as different but equal. Give all the males +1 Strength, -1 Wisdom, and give all the females +1 Endurance and -1 Strength, or whatever different-but-equal stat modifications from the norm seems appropriate. My only concern would be 1) that they are statistically equal modifications, because it's a game and games should be fair, and 2) that both males and females get modified off a theoretical norm, because making either males or female be "normal" and the other sex modified from that norm would be . . . basically wrong, both male and female are equally normal states.
But they aren't coded differently. In terms of both averages and ranges, males and females are coded identically. Males and females have the same range and the same average strength. Males and females have the same range and the same average height and weight. Males and females have the same life expectancy. If male and female
PCs don't equally fill out those ranges, that is an anomaly leaking into the system from the real world. A Zalanthan woman is just as likely as a Zalanthan man to be 6'2", or 5'3". It is an alien world.
Given the conditions that exist, there is no reason for there to be generalized sexism. Women who are pregnant or nursing may be treated differently from people who are not pregnant, but all people who are not pregnant are treated the same. The condition that warrants the special attention is pregnancy itself, not the ability to become pregnant.
Quote from: "Intrepid"...
Okay, go ahead and believe that. And when you have no kids, your DNA will be supplanted by people who have the genes that drive them to do so. And thus the selfish gene propagates.
Hosta la vista, baby.
Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"Okay, go ahead and believe that. And when you have no kids, your DNA will be supplanted by people who have the genes that drive them to do so. And thus the selfish gene propagates.
Hosta la vista, baby.
Good. Let them worry about bloating, stretch marks, sore ribs, strange cravings,
morning sickness, permanent hormonal changes, gassiness and labor pains.
Physically men and woman would be different due to their hormones, even in Zalanthas. Men have testostryom (spelt wrong) and womans have estrogen, and another chemical which I have forgotten. Testostryome helps muscle growth, which is how men are usually stronger than woman. But woman usually have other benefits which they get from their hormones. Even in Zalanthas these differences cannot be tossed aside. If woman had the same amount of testostyome as men, then they wouldn't have been born woman. Period.
Quote from: "skeetdaddle"
find this statement to be an attempt at using semantics to make sexism okay.
I can't think of another way to put this: You're wrong.
In your indignation at his different opinion, you are blinding yourself to the fact his motives are not, in fact, devious. If you read what he wrote without the desire to lynch him, you'll notice that the spirit of what he's trying to accomplish isn't one of being able to get away with blatant sexism and holding down women. Rather, he is attempting to offer a suggestion that has actual consequences for behavior that would be outside of the societal norm.
I agree with the notion that to say something doesn't exist or is flat-out impossible is naive and unrealstic, most of the time. In this case, especially. In Real Life we can try and say that baby-killing goes against society, is anti-cultural, and shouldn't happen. But it does. Of course, those who do it are screwed in the head, and suffer greatly for it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
The same, IMO, is true of sexism on Zalanthas. The vast, vast majority of people do not care if someone is a man or woman with regards to promotion, ability, status or the like. They do not think that women talking is any less important than men. Or that two women fighthing is any less than two men. That doesn't mean that it's impossible for those who do think that way to simply not exist. It just means that they'll suffer greatly for their beliefs if they voice them.
Quote from: "Ritley"Physically men and woman would be different due to their hormones, even in Zalanthas. Men have testostryom (spelt wrong) and womans have estrogen, and another chemical which I have forgotten. Testostryome helps muscle growth, which is how men are usually stronger than woman. But woman usually have other benefits which they get from their hormones. Even in Zalanthas these differences cannot be tossed aside. If woman had the same amount of testostyome as men, then they wouldn't have been born woman. Period.
Except you don't know anything about Zalanthan hormones. Zalanthan humans aren't exact replicas of earth humans. They are bipedals, but for all we know, sprite could be running through the veins of both male and female in equal measure, instead of "testostryome" and estrogen. Obey your thirst.
Quote from: "Ritley"Even in Zalanthas these differences cannot be tossed aside.
Actually, these differences can be tossed aside, and you're being asked to everytime
you make a pc on this mud. If you make excuses to not even try to suspend
your rl opinions on in-game situations,
you are incorrectly roleplaying.Period. End of story. It is policy.
Quote from: "Intrepid"Horniness is no more
an instinct than my wanting a fruity pop from the fridge.
I know that Wikipedia is hardly a paragon of scientific citation, but
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct pretty clearly defines sexual drive as a human instinct, and references both Freud and modern psychoanalysts.
Halaster wrote:
QuoteIf you read what he wrote without the desire to lynch him, you'll notice that the spirit of what he's trying to accomplish isn't one of being able to get away with blatant sexism and holding down women. Rather, he is attempting to offer a suggestion that has actual consequences for behavior that would be outside of the societal norm.
Perhaps
his spirit, but not others necessarily. I've seen enough of my fellow human beings to realize that certain people (not saying 7DV necessarily) would use such a semantics change to just be outright sexist (i.e. themselves). The suggestion probably wasn't meant to do such, but that's exactly what would happen. I was merely trying to point out that this is how it is already (
almost no sexism), and that changing the phrasing would (while perhaps providing a meager amount of added roleplay ability for those truly wishing to play the
exception to the rule) only encourage a more sexist (and for many an uncomfortable) atmosphere in game.
Here's one of the problems with saying there is no sexism on Zalanthas.
Why is there sexism at all? Because of gender roles. What defines gender roles? Social values for one, but also the biological differences between men and women. And one of those key biological differences is the ability to bear children. If the land was peaceful, then you might achieve a society where there is no need to decide who must go to war and who must stay behind to ensure the tribe's survival. On Zalanthas, however, there is no such luxury.
There will come a time when the tribe must fight, either to increase its territory or defend it. People will die in the process, and regardless of the fact that both the men and women are able and ready to fight, those able to bear children are more valuable to the tribe alive. While I'm sure women -would- go to fight, the tribe must surely must understand that having the bulk of the women and a few men stay behind would be imperative to the future of the tribe.
And so two "social values: come about from this very simple concept:
:arrow: Women should be protected because they are the future of the tribe.
:arrow: Men are expendable, thus the better choice for high risk jobs.
Let's say that you have 20 men and 20 women as part of the tribe and there is a war. Most would say that the first 80% of those going off to fight should be the men -- because if the war leaves you with 4 women and 20 men, your tribe's population is going to take a huge dip.
If you have 4 men and 20 women, then procreation would allow for the tribe to live on with multiple births. Logic would then tell most that, for the good of the tribe's survival, the women should stay somewhere safe while the men fight the war -- even in a world where the woman is just as capable as the man.
Couldn't this arrangement and mindset eventually foster the belief that "men are the warriors" for a reason OTHER than physical ability? And couldn't a woman be told that she was not allowed to fight because she must stay alive to bear children and ensure the tribe's survival? I'm not saying that females should be excluded, but that the survival of a tribe could very well depend upon them NOT fighting and surviving.
Might they not opt to favor male warriors over females simply because they can afford to lose the males?
If so, then consider a natural progression of logic. Men fight more than women, and so they train more often. Since they train more often, they become more adept at similar tasks such as hunting. When men are out fighting and hunting, then what tasks are left to be done by those men and women left behind? Cooking, cleaning, building, skinning, sewing, tanning, and other related tasks.
After generations and generations, isn't it possible that this progression of events and actions would create a situation in which men and women have assumed gender roles? And if those gender roles have been defined by tens or hundreds of years, might not some degree of sexism exist with regards to the job of a "woman" or a "man". Perhaps not in a civilization such as Allanak or Tuluk, but in smaller vilalges and communities in the desert whom depend upon such critical decisions for survival.
Note: People seem to believe that simply because they argue a point, that they prefer sexism to be part of the game and that they've either played a sexist cahracter or suffered at the hands of a successful female character. None of these are true for me. I debate because blanket statements like, "There is no sexism in Zalanthas" need to be validated and these points merit discussion. Especially for clarification to new players and old on how societies exactly have survived without placing an emphasis on protecting the child bearing sex of a species.
-LoD
Having a stated policy that sexism does not exist in Zalanthas is a mechanism for achieving an ideal and it is irrelevant whether or not it is absolutely true at the present. If we dilute the stated policy by making it "there is almost no sexism" we also dilute our ideal and render any chance of attaining a sexism-free world impossible. If we had no players bringing in real world attitudes, it would, in fact, be a statement of truth.
Quote from: "Intrepid"Quote from: "Cale_Knight"I would definitely say that the desire to have sex is instinctual. The only difference between us and animals is that we have the ability to supress those instinctual desires.
Call it the heat of passion, call it horniness, call it whatever you want, but humans have the same drive to reproduce as animals do.
That's not instinct. That's an urge brought on by chemical reactions in the body. We
actually have a number of differences from animals. One of them is our apparent
lack of instincts and another is our ability to override our emotional drive when it's
needed (not counting a few individual exceptions, of course). Horniness is no more
an instinct than my wanting a fruity pop from the fridge.
Quote from: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct"Instinct is the inherent disposition of a living organism toward a particular behavior. Instincts are generally inherited patterns of responses or reactions to certain kinds of stimuli. In humans they are most easily observed in behaviors such as emotions, sexual drive, and other bodily functions, as these are largely biologically determined. Instinct provides a response to external stimuli, which moves an organism to action, unless overridden by intelligence, which is creative and hence far more versatile. Since instincts take generations to adapt, an intermediate position, or basis for action, is served by memory, which provides individually stored successful reactions built upon experience. The particular actions performed may be influenced by learning, environment and natural principles. Generally, the term instinct is not used to describe an existing condition or established state.
...
Instincts in humans can also be seen in what are called instinctive reflexes. Reflexes, such as the Babinski Reflex (fanning of the toes when foot is stroked), are seen in babies and are indicative of stages of development. These reflexes can truly be considered instinctive because they are generally free of environmental influences or conditioning.
Additional human traits that have been looked at as instincts are: altruism, disgust, face perception, and language acquisitions.
Other Sociologists argue that humans have no instincts, defining them as a "complex pattern of behaviour present in every specimen of a particular species, that is innate, and that cannot be overridden." Said sociologists argue that drives such as sex and hunger cannot be considered instincts, as they can be overridden. This notion is present in many introductory textbooks (Sociology: An Introduction, Ian Robertson, Worth Publishers, 1989), but is still hotly debated.
Quote from: "Cale_Knight"I know that Wikipedia is hardly a paragon of scientific citation, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct pretty clearly defines sexual drive as a human instinct, and references both Freud and modern psychoanalysts.
First off, if I wanted to be mean, I can actually go in and rewrite anything on most
wikis as they're not actually protected from outside editing. Hence, the information
on most of those pages is, imo, suspect at best and whim at worst.
Next...I don't place much stock in a womanizing coke addict from the Victorian
era, personally. Sorry, I know a lot of people like Freud. I've just never really
agreed with most of his theories and I believe he attributed way too much of the
human condition to Id and subconscious.
Quote from: "LoD"Here's one of the problems with saying there is no sexism on Zalanthas.
Here's your primary mistake, and the one that sets the stage for the rest of your
very lengthy post. It doesn't matter whether you have a problem with it, it doesn't
matter how much you rationalize it or how many examples you try to bring in to
cover your rear, it's still against the setting rules. Ie, it never developed on Arm, no
matter how much you argue otherwise, and it's never going to. It simply is the
equivalent of riding a horse across the desert in full platemail. It is not a part of
the setting.
As your for closing comment, if it was, in fact, direct toward me, then you misfired. I
believe that, while there are in fact, individuals who are sexist players on our game,
my main criticism is that people are lazy and would rather not even try to play the
correct setting material. I would have more respect for someone who tried and
failed to play according to Armageddon's non-sexist societal regimen than someone
who spent all day on the boards rationalizing why they shouldn't have to even try
to play the game as it was designed.
There are obviously exceptions to nearly anything. I don't think "there is no sexism" is a mandate as strong as "elves don't ride kanks" or "dwarves have no hair". On the other hand, people seem to willfully and blatantly ignore the fact that there is no sexism and get away with it.
Sure you can argue that tribes might value and protect females over the males due to childbirthing. But then most of us are playing in large cities, not small tribes of 40 people. Big military organisations like the Houses and the Byn aren't starved for recruits (at least not ICly) and don't need to breed new members, so they should be treating female members the same way male members are treated. The women aren't there to have kids for the House, they're there to fight, and since they have exactly the same physical potential as men do, there's no reason to treat them differently. That's the main issue with this debate.
I think for the sake of new people trying to understand the world, the line should be drawn at "There is no sexism, treat men and women equally always". Experienced players are free to debate semantics and whatifs and how certain things may apply to obscure areas of the game, but I'd rather present newbies with a clear, definitive guideline.
Freud was a looney. He didn't really even believe that women were truly concious. (Yes, I've read some of Freud's works, in the original German no less)
Anyway, as I've said, must cultural/societal gender roles inherently come with sexism? Can't we say that men have a tendancy to act some ways, women have a tendency to act other ways, but none of these tendencies effect anything truly important, like leadership or combat? Can't we say that sometimes there are men that act like women in some ways and women who act like men in some ways, but that's ok too?
*shrug*
For the most part, I think people are pretty good about no sexism in Zalanthas. Occaisionally I see someone slip up with a sexist (though not usually maliciously so) phrase, but seldom truly innapropriate constant discrimination from veteran players.
Some of my own characters did treat female employees/subordinates differently than male employees/subordinates, though. Not because of sexism but rather because he had a chance, or at least a desire, to get it on with the females. Is that wrong?
Quote from: "Intrepid"Here's your primary mistake.
I've made no mistake. I've stated an opinion.
Secondly, this "No Sexism in Armageddon" is not a rule that has stood since I've been playing the game. It is something that has been later added, and, ultimately, can be revised if the powers that be so choose. To say anything is final is naive.
Quote from: "Intrepid"As your for closing comment, if it was, in fact, direct toward me, then you misfired.
It wasn't meant for you, since obviously many of the male posters have exhibited similar feelings of attack from the female posters on their ideas simply because we don't agree. The game policy requires that we adhere in game, but it doesn't say anything about our right to voice our objections and/or pursue topics in an effort to understand how everyone can better follow the desires environment for which the rules were set.
However, since you insist on dogging these threads like some kind of coyote intent on getting first nibble at every scrap of information you don't agree with, let me say that I find your tone and assumptions disappointing. You're obviously well spoken, and to make so many incorrect assumptions about someone's intentions, their RP, or their assumed disregard for game policy is ignorant and rude.
I've made no mention that I do not adhere to game policy when playing a character, yet you respond my post with the implication that -I- am one of those lazy people who does not. I've made no mention that I've exhibited sexist behavior in game, yet you imply that I'm attempting to "cover my rear". You imply that I am trying to rationalize why players (like me) shouldn't even have to try to play the game as it was designed, yet you don't even know me.
If you have some pertinent examples of how I have done any of the things you've accused me of, then feel free to send me a PM. If not, then I politely ask you to respect the fact that people (including other Imms) have strong opinions on this subject, and that you furthermore allow these points to be considered without swarming over them with your damning tongue saying the same thing, "Whatever you say has no meaning. Sanvean said X, and that's how it's going to be."
I've read your arguement already, in multiple posts. This is the first time you've read this arguement from me. If you have nothing new to contribute, then please have some respect for some of the
other posters.
-LoD
Quote from: "Marauder Moe"Some of my own characters did treat female employees/subordinates differently than male employees/subordinates, though. Not because of sexism but rather because he had a chance, or at least a desire, to get it on with the females. Is that wrong?
Attraction is not the same as sexism necessarily. Let me ask you this: If this character
was homosexual, would he be treating a male he was attracted to differently? It
sounds like he would, in his case.
Ya' know -
It's really much simpler then this IMO.
Armageddon is a game. That game policy is that in Zalanthas, while men or women might have different physical make up they have the same physical capabilities aside from child bearing. The point is don't treat a woman or man different simply because of their sex.
Treat them petty if they are petty.
Treat them frilly if they are frilly.
But don't baby a woman because she is simply a woman. And don't assume things like because a woman has big breasts she is not a legitimate character.
There's really no need for rules or sociatal debates because it has nothing to do with the real world. This is Zalanthas we're talking about. And codedly men and woman have equal capabilities on Zalanthas. I assume this isn't changing. Therefore, since the code already enforces this, as players I believe we should be reinforcing this and checking sexism at the door. Like I stated I have seen many examples of sexism IG and I am hoping people will become more self aware, because as a woman that enjoys playing rowdy combat characters I'm tired of seeing it. It -is- there and I hope people will start checking these attitudes becuase REGARDLESS about our real world differences, or sociatal traits or even whether a woman wants to be have certain traits or a man wants to wear a skirt they should have the option to do so without automatically being judged on an OOC level.
Quote from: "LoD"Secondly, this "No Sexism in Armageddon" is not a rule that has stood since I've been playing the game. It is something that has been later added, and, ultimately, can be revised if the powers that be so choose. To say anything is final is naive.
If it hasn't been in since as long as you've been playing, it was added in shortly
after. I realize you have a misplaced pride in how long you've been playing, rather
than realizing it is, in fact, just an amount of time in itself, but some of us have been
playing nearly as long--some longer. When I first came to the game, the rule was
already in place. It is a rule that has been in place for a very long time. Of course,
I do realize it can be changed. I seriously doubt anyone is naive in thinking that
the chances of it being changed are slim to none, however.
Quote from: "LoD"It wasn't meant for you, since obviously many of the male posters have exhibited similar feelings of attack from the female posters on their ideas simply because we don't agree. The game policy requires that we adhere in game, but it doesn't say anything about our right to voice our objections and/or pursue topics in an effort to understand how everyone can better follow the desires environment for which the rules were set.
I believe that the people feeling under attack are behaving as they do because many
of the viewpoints from the very beginning of the responses have indicated a base
approval for sexism outside the game as well. Yes, there is a group of people who
find it insulting. It would be naive to expect otherwise.
Quote from: "LoD"However, since you insist on dogging these threads like some kind of coyote intent on getting first nibble at every scrap of information you don't agree with, let me say that I find your tone and assumptions disappointing. You're obviously well spoken, and to make so many incorrect assumptions about someone's intentions, their RP, or their assumed disregard for game policy is ignorant and rude.
I don't believe many of the assumptions you're claiming for every poster on this
thread to be the case, LoD. And nothing you've stated thus far indicates that you
yourself believe it either. Your flaming aside, criticizing me for an assumption based
on an assumption is, in itself, hypocrisy.
Quote from: "LoD"I've made no mention that I do not adhere to game policy when playing a character, yet you respond my post with the implication that -I- am one of those lazy people who does not. I've made no mention that I've exhibited sexist behavior in game, yet you imply that I'm attempting to "cover my rear". You imply that I am trying to rationalize why players (like me) shouldn't even have to try to play the game as it was designed, yet you don't even know me.
Actually, my post was a general comment as well. I don't suppose you are the only
one allowed to post in such a fashion on this forum, but if you are, please advise me.
In other words: Your perceived implications are incorrect.
Quote from: "LoD"If you have some pertinent examples of how I have done any of the things you've accused me of, then feel free to send me a PM. If not, then I politely ask you to respect the fact that people (including other Imms) have strong opinions on this subject, and that you furthermore allow these points to be considered without swarming over them with your damning tongue saying the same thing, "Whatever you say has no meaning. Sanvean said X, and that's how it's going to be."
Actually, my responses have been an effort to point out that, despite the tangents on
why sexism is occurring in game, and why people think it should, for as long as the
rule is in place, it should not be an aspect in game. Also, if you wish to be respected,
you should probably be more respectful of others. I've never seen you display the
respect you're requesting. Perhaps you should stop worrying about how long you've
been playing the game in comparison to everyone else and just respect them for being
fellow players.
Quote from: "LoD"I've read your arguement already, in multiple posts. This is the first time you've read this arguement from me. If you have nothing new to contribute, then please have some respect for some of the other posters.
If you've seen multiple posts, then you should also note that the majority of them
have been in response to posts that responded to me. This is a dialogue, LoD, and
I am well within my rights to continue said dialoge for as long as both I and the
other posters are interested in continuing it. Your attempt to troll me is not going
negate this fact in the slightest.
Quote from: "Bebop"Armageddon is a game. That game policy is that in Zalanthas, while men or women might have different physical make up they have the same physical capabilities aside from child bearing. The point is don't treat a woman or man different simply because of their sex.
Treat them petty if they are petty.
Treat them frilly if they are frilly.
But don't baby a woman because she is simply a woman. And don't assume things like because a woman has big breasts she is not a legitimate character.
I tried to explain this to LoD and many others, but he saw fit to have an explosion
about it.
Quote from: "LoD"Quote from: "Intrepid"Here's your primary mistake.
I've made no mistake. I've stated an opinion.
Secondly, this "No Sexism in Armageddon" is not a rule that has stood since I've been playing the game. It is something that has been later added, and, ultimately, can be revised if the powers that be so choose. To say anything is final is naive.
Actually as Xygax posted it's Staff Policy that IG there is no sexism and it would be as rare as an elf riding a kank. If you wanted to have an elf riding a kank I think it would be so rare it would require staff approval, so I would guess the same would be expected if you intended to have your character see woman as the lesser sex.
This is because this is a game, and I would assume that the staff are trying to give woman a fair environment to play in and enjoy equal as the males. I don't see how you could find that unfair and I'm sure you can still have fun with the game without immediately judging someone for the simple fact that they are a woman. It really is SIMPLE - because like I said, it doesn't matter about earthly rules. This is Zalanhas we play in an according to Zalanthas laws of nature, society whatever - women are equal. As well an OOC level it's staff policy, it's not optional because the Staff I'm guessing doesn't want it to become the norm for women to be treated as the lesser sex IG.
If you would like to play a character that sees women as the lesser sex maybe you should e-mail the staff and app it.
Quote from: "LoD"Here's one of the problems with saying there is no sexism on Zalanthas.
SNIP
Here is the problem with a logical arguement as to why sexism could exist.
I believe that it was decided that sexism didn't exist on Zalanthas for OOC reasons and not IC reasons. Therefore, the statement made by the staff that sexism does not exist on Zalanthas is a policy statement, not a statement in regards to the gameworld.
The reason for this policy is because of playabililty. No player should be required to play a male character in order to have fun. No player should be required to play a male character to gain entrance to a certain clan (unfortunately this is not entirely the case) or to rise in rank within a clan. No player should see their character disrespected, disregarded, or ignored just because they are not playing a male character.
By no means should this policy be reversed.
Quote from: "EvilRoeSlade"The reason for this policy is because of playabililty. No player should be required to play a male character in order to have fun. No player should be required to play a male character to gain entrance to a certain clan (unfortunately this is not entirely the case) or to rise in rank within a clan. No player should see their character disrespected, disregarded, or ignored just because they are not playing a male character.
If that is the case, that the policy is in place because of playability reasons as you've stated here, then I completely agree.
My arguements, and those of some of the other posts, have been in response to a belief that someone was stating there was a realistic way sexism could not exist in an environment like Zalanthas. I don't see any realistic way that it could NOT exist. However, if the entire arguement is purely about playability and having an equal opportunity to have fun -- I can't fault anyone for that.
And, Bebop, good grief -- would you stop assuming I want to play someone treating women as the lesser sex! I don't want to special app anything of the kind.
Now go kill some scrabs so I can cook us dinner.
-LoD
Uhg. Nine pages? My God.
To begin, I am a female. I also push for the rights of "the little people." I also didn't read this entire thread, because well.. its nine pages. And that seems just a little absurd for a topic like this where there can't possibly be a discussion of development (in my opinion). But, I will give my opinion (because I like to have my 2 cents in, too).
I support the 'no sexism' rule as far as playability goes -- I shouldn't have to repeat anything from the quote above, it said it all perfectly. However, I don't see what the problem is with sexist actually existing within individuals in Zalanthas.
Armageddon isn't Earth, but its a cooking pot of all sorts of mindsets, from the psychotically self-absorbed to the meagerly loyal. I don't see why a player should be punished for playing a PC who is a flat-ass-out sexist. If you take this away, why don't you take away the ability to play a racist, or a disregarding social climber who spits on beggars? If I can ICly hate a person who has brown eyes simply because they have brown eyes, I should also be able to hate them based on their gender.
So, stupid IC shit like, "I'm tired of your womanly chatter" upsets some people. Well, the argument that I can't use the word 'F-me' in an OOC medium about an IC character obviously OOCly designed for fucking upsets me. So there.
Prejudice is a beautiful roleplaying hook, in my opinion. No reason to dampen it, so long as people OOCly remember its an IC quirk to a PC, and that, by some twist of fate, advancement in no playable faction in the game is based on gender. Let the female templar hear that sexist Bynner make a stupid-ass comment.
Gender roles can exist without becoming a straight-jacket. Binary gender has never been universally accepted on Earth, and there is even less reason for it to be accepted on Zalanthas.
Quote from: "LoD"the women should stay somewhere safe while the men fight the war -- even in a world where the woman is just as capable as the man.
There is no safe place, and there hasn't been for a long time.
You have a good point overall, but I don't think gender roles would become nearly as as extreme as you indicate.
Most villages smaller than Red Storm don't have good walls or defensive fortifications. While your offensive force is off fighting the good fight, you can't leave your village defenseless. Tribes control small territories with porous boarders. While Tribe A's men are off warring with or raiding Tribe B, the back door is wide open for Tribe C. Tribe B's aggression may even have been a feint, to lure away your warriors so that their Tribe C allies could swoop in and carry off all of your portable goods, possibly including children and any helpless women.
Given how dangerous the wild is, it wouldn't make sense to deny combat training to any healthy adult. If your women are helpless homemakers then they become a commodity, any other tribe can carry them off and use them as breeding stock. Moo. While stealing women has been fairly common on Earth, I like to think that buff Zalanthan women would be too much trouble to abduct. Unless you are willing to maim them, or take them to the city to sell, they simply won't stay abducted. Stealing children may be worthwhile, but stealing women won't be.
The highest risk activities could be primarily assigned to expendable men: raiding parties, big game hunting, and long-distance trading.
Moderate risk activities could be assigned to healthy women: combat training focusing on defending the village, the children and the herds from raiders, and small game hunting and gathering.
Low risk activities assigned to the aged, the very young, the physically disadvantaged (could include pregnant women/new mothers), and those temperamentally or physically unsuited to violent activities: childcare, domestic duties, gardening, animal care, lore keeping, crafting, the arts, and healing.
Most men might focus on the high-risk/high-glory style of hunting like hunting wild boars, where a bunch of guys run up to dangerous wild animal and poke it with spears. Or the even more high-risk/high-glory activity of hunting other intelligent species in raiding parties. While this group would be primarily young men (80-90%) it would also include those females who are by temperament particularly aggressive and action oriented. What are sometimes called manly hearted women.
http://www.montana.edu/wwwpb/univ/manly.html http://collections.ic.gc.ca/SaskIndian/a89mar15.htmMost female hunters might focus on opportunistic hunting of small game, primarily using distance weapons. While you are out gathering roots and berries you are going to spot small game, you might as well know how to shoot it. Knowing how to use weapons well enough to hunt small game also means that you know how to use them well enough to prevent yourself from becoming prey, which is important. It also means that the people in this group will usually come home with
something every day. If you don't find berries you find lizards, if you don't find birds you find roots, the important thing is that you are bringing home food every day that you go out. And of course knowing how to use bows or slings will come in handy if you have to protect your village from invaders. This will rarely be an all-female group: some men will be temperamentally unsuited to the aggressive activities in the male-dominated hunting/raiding parties and prefer the type of hunting and gathering done by this group, and some will simply prefer the company of a mixed-sex group to that of a sausage fest. Depending on what else is going on, this group might be 25-50% male.
The homebody group that rarely travel out of sight of the camp/village will be dominantly female, but by no means exclusively so. Those men that survived in the high-risk group long enough to become old or crippled will be here. As will be men who are by temperament more suited to activities that take place at the camp. Some guys are just cut out to be Mr. Mom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Hijra_%28India%29Women in the aggressive group and men in the homebody group can still reproduce, so no loss there. The aggressive women would move primarily into the middle group for most of their pregnancy, and might not restrict themselves to the village or camp until the 1/4 of the pregnancy. Some will settle down with the baby, but some won't and within a month after delivery (bearing in mind that a Zalanthan month is 1/3 of a year) may well have moved back into the middle group, leaving the infant in the care of those who enjoy childcare, there are plenty of boobs to go around. Within a year be back with the aggressive group. They may choose to reproduce fewer times than women in the other two groups, but most will probably choose to have one or two babies, because everybody likes the idea of leaving descendants.
Assuming that they have made the intellectual connection between sex and reproduction (not a huge leap, but not an automatic one either) even the homosexual members of the tribe can reproduce, assuming that most homosexuals are capable of performing sexually with a member of the opposite sex (given the number of homosexuals in our world who get married and have children before coming out, this isn't too far-fetched).
I can accept gender trends, but extremely restrictive gender roles seem unlikely (and also not fun).
Angela Christine
I don't think anyone at all (including me) argues about the disclusion of restrictive gender roles at all. I would be disappointed to see that sort of thing rear its head.
But I (and some other folks) feel like the staff-enforced-and-supported guidelines of no gender roles at all are somewhat ... unrealistic. It doesn't make the game unplayable, but I can personally say that sometimes, it has taken a nice pause for me to decide what my character might say, just because I am trying to stay within the lines of decorum.
That is my contention, and I think nearly everybody else's who speaks up against the does not exist rule. If I, as a character, make a smartass comment about how this woman must be on the rag, it is not acceptable, despite the obvious fact that documentation does nothing to discredit that women get emotional around their period. It is not acceptable, but it is a fact, sexism or not. It's a conversation starter, a reality, but I am wrong, as a PC.
I wholeheartedly agree with the concept of discouraging real sexism, through IC example and OOC documentation. It is the concept of saying that I am playing my character wrong if he says or believes the smallest gender-specific thing that is not, I feel, in the best interest of the game.
Please do not assume that I mean anything at all more than I present here. There is no underlying meaning. I am a very straight-forward person, and I always will be, to my detriment, or for my advantage. I willingly admit when I am wrong if I can see that I am.
So far, there has been nothing besides hardball policy to convince me that the current state of things are for the best.
Men are from Jihae and women are from Lirathu, in any world. ;)
I didn't say "no gender roles" I said "no sexism." There's a difference.
Sexism is discrimination based on gender. That's all it is. It isn't anything more than that. Some of the discussion I'm reading here takes sexism beyond what it is and talks about cultural diversity. Cultural diversity can exist without there being any sexism.
If the following situation occurred:
PC A is getting a report from PC B
PC B says something and then adds their own insights.
PC A thinks, "Well, that can't be right because PC B is...."
That would be any sort of ISM - discrimination based on what PC B is. Be that male, female, elf, dwarf, magicker, or whatever.
Sexism happens when someone discriminates based on gender.
In Armageddon sexism should not happen because there is no culture of one gender being weaker than the other. Not to mention there are other species to discriminate against. Will there be characters who hate the other gender? Probably.
Why? Because they may have had individual bad experiences with the other gender. The man who was slaughtered and ridiculed by a woman in combat. The girl who had a man destroy her life socially. Is that sexism... now that is an interesting question and I would have to say yes. So, let me rephrase, sexism should be rare and isolated to individuals based on personal and extreme experiences to develop - and it is unlikely to blossom to full scale sexism but rather an intense personal vendetta against a certain person or even a family.
Another question is it sexist that I automatically used a man in a fighting example and a female in a social example? You can reverse the two if that makes you feel happy. It doesn't matter either way - they are both valid.
Is it sexist to say that women are being catty? (quirri fight) You know what, I don't think it is. I think that is just describing a fight between two women who have their claws out. Much the same what you can say two guys are bashing heads like duskhorn. IE, engaged in a pointless chest pounding display.
There are matriarchies in the game and patriarchies. There are whatever the term would be for no gender-specific-led organizations. Where the leaders take the form of individuals of best merit regardless of gender. In other words - in Armageddon we see all sorts. You can have all of these different cultural societies without having sexism. Sexism is discrimination based on gender. A matriarchy can exist without sexism. A patriarchy can exist without sexism. Having such a diverse range of cultures allows people to explore all sorts of roles and experiences. It is a good thing.
Is it sexist to question a female recruit opinion's and instantly believe a male recruit? All things being equal in the reputation of each recruit then yes, that is sexist. But if the female recruit has created a history of suspicion for whatever reason then no, that is not sexist. Or if the male recruit has a history of being unreliable or lying then calling him into suspect and believing the female over the male isn't sexism either.
I like this thread because is gets us to think for a moment. Are we bringing over real life perceptions into the game world? This also includes going too far and classifying some things that aren't sexism as sexism. Was it sexist to hold the door open for someone? No. If you hold the door open for everyone it isn't sexist to hold the door open for a woman.
It should be clear to everyone that women and men are different. You know the adage, men are from Mars and women are from Venus. In every culture I've looked at men and women are different - even in warrior cultures where women fight alongside the men. Differences are okay and fine. Sexism is discrimination based on gender.
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"And John, comparing Rape and Sexism seems ... off, just a tad.
I'm not saying sexism is as bad as rape. Just that they can both hinder the enjoyment of the game so policies limiting them have been made.
Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"Why should I? Just to be like you?
What the hell difference does it make, having a "name" doesn't change my opinion.
Err... you seem really angry in your last few posts, kank. It was merely meant in a humurous manner. Sorry if I offended or angered.
Quote from: "Ritley"Even in Zalanthas these differences cannot be tossed aside.
Actually they can be. "They're tossed aside." See how easy that was? I do find it amazing you're willing to allow the existence of giant ants (which are scientifically impossible, unless you have some creative thinking) but bring up points against the existence of men and women being physically and socially equal. You're not willing to apply that same suspension of belief or creative thinking.
Here's a fact:
The majority of female players and a small minority of male players wouldn't enjoy the game as much if sexism was allowed.
It is in our power (each of us as individuals) to make the game more enjoyable for most of the female players. Shouldn't we do that? Who cares Gorilla J if you can enjoy being discriminated against because of your gender. The majority of the female players can't. And who cares 7DV if we can't get 100% of the playerbase being non-discriminatory, shouldn't we at least try?
I find it amazing that people will think up all these points against gender equality in the game, when that simple fact will remain unchanged. If you're doing it for simple discussion, that's fine. But a lot of people would use those points to say "so let's do away with 100% gender equality."
Quote from: "LoD"Secondly, this "No Sexism in Armageddon" is not a rule that has stood since I've been playing the game. It is something that has been later added, and, ultimately, can be revised if the powers that be so choose. To say anything is final is naive.
Whilever Sanvean is on staff I feel it safe to say that the no sexism policy will not be changed. If/When Sanvean ever leaves, then I'll grant you there is a possibility.
Quote from: "John"Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"Why should I? Just to be like you?
What the hell difference does it make, having a "name" doesn't change my opinion.
Err... you seem really angry in your last few posts, kank. It was merely meant in a humurous manner. Sorry if I offended or angered.
I'm not angry!!!! :x :x :x :x :x
:wink:
I really don't want to get involved in this thread.
But gosh darnit, I just can't pass up a good argument.
Did ya read Sanvean's article about women in gaming? Do ya grok the reasons why chicks don't like to admit to being chicks while playing games? Can ya imagine why females don't line up in the same way that males do to play D&D where a midieval-esque setting maintains staunch threads of patrimony?
Zalanthas is an escape from reality, and the point of being an escape from reality is being DIFFERENT from reality. What you know and do in real life may or may not be represented in Zalanthas at all.
Your assumption that all women are hormonal and, therefore irrational, may not be true on Zalanthas. The assumption that all men think with their winkies may similarly not be true on Zalanthas. Humans may not follow the same genetic predispositions. If you get skrewed by someone on Zalanthas, chances are that the item between their legs is the very last thing you would think about IC when you chose to be bitter about it later.
Just because you, oocly, have a problem with the other gender -- whether that is a lack of comprehension, coping skills, or a mentally impressed stereotype -- does not mean that there are good reasons for your character to manifest those.
Now, outside of ALL of the above, here... Do any of you sincerely think that the stand about "we don't want sexism in our game" is going to change when so many people (including prominent staff members) have spoken against it? Why is this even a point of debate? What does having sexism (in lieu of not having it) add to the game?
Hal's angle on the subject is an interesting one though:
Given this restriction that won't be going away anytime soon, what are some ways to overcome out built-in "isms" and improve our own play? How do we reconcile BEING sexist with playing members of a society that has no such notions? And are there inconsistencies in the game world that break this policy when they shouldn't?
I hope that's where this discussion goes from here on out.
-- X
I haven't been playing very long so my game world knowledge is limited. But what I've seen, I don't think there's been any sexism created by the game itself. But I do think there are existing mechanics that promote sexism, things that emphasize real world stereotypes. Like the whole Jihae vs. Lirathan templars. Sure the Lirathans run the city, but they are non-military. Just like the stereotypical females in civilized society (with a couple of exceptions in certain countries). Jihaens are specifically military, and even more, specifically combat (as opposed to "merely" non-com officers) just like stereotypical men in civilized society (with a couple of exceptions in certain tribal cultures).
I've seen that armor in shops are very masculine looking. I haven't ever seen a tembo-hide gorget with delicate flowers burnished into the leather and I haven't yet seen a crossbow with intricate filegree depicting fleurs di lis on the handhold. Most of the silk clothing and accessories though are decidedly feminine-appearing, the words used to describe them the same kinds of words you'd see describing womens' garb in a romance novel.
I've seen a lot of kanks, and if I remember right they're all male. Are all the mounts male? Are there any female inixes or kanks? If not, why not? What about other critters, the non-playable creatures that people hunt? Do they all have both male and females among them? Only certain species? If so, why?
Most of the NPC soldiers that I've seen, with very few exceptions are male. Why is that? Every half-giant soldier NPC I've seen has been male.
This is just my observation and I remind you that my experience is very limited. But as a newcomer to the game, this limited experience is all I have to go by. And if I were the kind of lass who'd be influenced by these things I would definitely think that the game allows, supports, and in some ways even promotes IC sexism. Which is fine by me, doesn't bother me at all. Except, the staff is saying it isn't so. So I can understand confusion and misinterpretation.
L. Stanson
Quote from: "Lizzie"
I've seen that armor in shops are very masculine looking. I haven't ever seen a tembo-hide gorget with delicate flowers burnished into the leather and I haven't yet seen a crossbow with intricate filegree depicting fleurs di lis on the handhold. Most of the silk clothing and accessories though are decidedly feminine-appearing, the words used to describe them the same kinds of words you'd see describing womens' garb in a romance novel.
Masculine/Feminine according to whose standards? Who says flowers are girly? Who says the characteristics of the armor are masculine? Who says that the silks you see are feminine? This is an OOC perception. But I'll admit you do have a point.
Quote from: "Lizzie"
I've seen a lot of kanks, and if I remember right they're all male. Are all the mounts male? Are there any female inixes or kanks? If not, why not?
Kanks are basically giant ants. They're the ultimate herdbeast because of the hide mentality. The males are the drones. Patriarchy or Matriarchy does not necessarily equate sexism...
And I've seen female lizard mounts.
Quote from: "Lizzie"Most of the NPC soldiers that I've seen, with very few exceptions are male. Why is that? Every half-giant soldier NPC I've seen has been male.
This one I can't really dispute except to say that this standard does not hold in all House Guards, at least. I will admit that you have some of a point that some of the building has been influenced by some RL norms.
Girlish and mannish according to stereotypical real-world social norms. That was my point. That these stereotypes are real-world and have been brought into the game, by the game, and makes it very easy for players to add their own stereotypes to the mix. If the game does it, then it must be okay right? But it isn't right according to the staff. Except that the game is built that way and new players who observe this for themselves will get mixed signals and make decisions based on those mixed signals.
If the game makes armor look masculine according to real-world stereotypes and "fine clothing and accessories" are described with feminine overtones according to real-world stereotypes, then a player who's lived with these real-world stereotypes will come to the conclusion that it's the same in the game; that men are the protectors and women are the nurturers. Even if the policy says otherwise, the game itself is making this statement even though it's a subtle statement.
Hope that clears it up for you!
L. Stanson
Butting in for a sec here.
Re the kanks - they're mostly males because when we create npcs, it defaults to male gender, and unless we specifically think to fix it...well, they stay male. It isn't because of any IC reasons, heh. Many "monster" npcs are male for that reason.
-Ash
I see these threads a few times every year it seems. Though I don't feel like reading over the ten pages it's generated thus far. I'll chime in.
Being a strong, proud man, I'm all for sexism. There is nothing wrong with having an Alpha male concept. Considering the game world is mainly ruled by men, whether staff likes to admit it or not, it WILL exist, and will continue exist, even if it's deemed "bad roleplay". So as you can see I am all for sexism towards females by males, and I'm all for sexism towards males by females in power (especially if they are strong females). I'm all over sexism towards anyone pretty much, it's a developed personality trait if you've seen nothing but strong <insert gender here> in your lifetime, dominating.
So that's just how I feel and have always felt about it. Sexism=good.
Quote from: "ashyom"Butting in for a sec here.
Re the kanks - they're mostly males because when we create npcs, it defaults to male gender, and unless we specifically think to fix it...well, they stay male. It isn't because of any IC reasons, heh. Many "monster" npcs are male for that reason.
-Ash
Yeah, let us have our illusions about the kanks, at least! ;)
Here's the thing. People are arguing with all sorts of different definitions of sexism. We were talking about this on the IDB and Eris came up with about the most useful statement I've seen so far.
QuoteThe main point, though ... is that sexism broadly construed as a devaluation of women (not just differential treatment of women and men) is not a cultural feature on the game.
It's not a matter of men and women being constructed differently. It's not a matter of who bears the children. It's not a matter of who is stronger, or smarter, or more nurturing. It's that men and women are valued equally in the game. They can both rise to positions of leadership, they can inherit property, and on and on.
What does that mean in theory? Things like the following:
Being as ready to assume a male leader slept his way to power as a female one.
Knowing that a female Byn sergeant has as strong a chance of kicking your butt as that male one.
Not marking women as outside the norm (AC touches on this) linguistically.
If you notice places where you think this needs to be addressed, feel free to post something in the submissions forum. I'd be glad to see more female soldiers, or half giants, or whatever. When I'm building, I try to keep a 50/50 ratio, but there's over a decade's worth of building here and I'm sure we're skewed.
Seriously, are we done beating this horse yet? I'm pretty sure it's dead.
I just have to add that more ornate armor with flowers and stuff and pink flint weapons would own.
No offense, but I don't find the idea of associating men as protectors and women as nurturers to be sexist. It's when you get into restricting them to these roles, suggesting that's all they can be that you become sexist.
Also, on the comment about armor : Have you ever seen an army made entirely of women? I haven't, I can't think of any point in history where there was one. So, I'd be understanding if in these sorts of games that armor tailored to women was lacking. They really don't have much to draw on. Armor, especially older armor of the non bullet-proof kind, was made primarily for men. So I don't see how you can put armor in this world without making it seem masculine.
Besides, the fact that there are plenty of women kicking ass throughout the game should be plenty of evidence to new players that the usual physical restrictions don't apply to women in this game.
Quote from: "Sanvean"
Not marking women as outside the norm (AC touches on this) linguistically.
What are some ways we can improve this one? This is the hard one for me.
Should we start simply always leaving out 'female' from sdescs?
The short, ugly female templar becomes
the short, ugly templar (and we can laugh our asses off as people call her a Lord, heheh). I think that's an easy one.
Any other suggestions?
Quote from: "Halaster"Should we start simply always leaving out 'female' from sdescs? The short, ugly female templar becomes the short, ugly templar (and we can laugh our asses off as people call her a Lord, heheh). I think that's an easy one.
Any other suggestions?
Or we could just start adding the qualifier "male." That's actually been my preference for a while now.
As for other ways to combat our bias, that's hard. And I have no idea. Encourage female players to make more ugly women?
I think if we added 'male', it would help a little bit.
No more templars.
Only Templarettas and Templarraths.
A city-state with ALL female templars. Ruled by a sorcerer-kings of course.
I don't really see anything wrong with distinguishing females and males linguistically. I mean, they are still men and women and they are still different. Lady Templar and Lord Templar carry the same amount of weight to me. I can understand the male qualifier for sdescs, though.
Quote from: "Halaster"Any other suggestions?
Allanak's npcs, particularly in the Rinth and the soldiers of Allanak, could be equalled
out.
And if you really wanted to culture-shock the newbies, you could make the Byn npcs
female-heavy.
Lastly, and I'm not sure how to bring a practical solution to this, but there have been
people noting that the vast majority of Allanak rulers and powergrabbers in history
have been male. Don't worry, I'm trying. It may take a while though. ;)
Quote from: "Intrepid"
Lastly, and I'm not sure how to bring a practical solution to this, but there have been
people noting that the vast majority of Allanak rulers and powergrabbers in history
have been male.
Can't do much about that - not going to re-write history, heh.
Quote from: "Halaster"Can't do much about that - not going to re-write history, heh.
I'd hate to see plots done just to replace current world-leaders with females (as in, Tektolnes, Sand Lord, Muk Utep).
Quote from: "Halaster"Can't do much about that - not going to re-write history, heh.
You just wait. I'm going to make a female avangion some day.
Yeah, yeah.
Just add in some tattos, like half-naked male figures, to balance out the half-naked female ones that I've seen in game.
Throw out a few more 'female' mounts to end that point.
Create a few more armor peices that are "feminine" in real-life perspectives -- more flowers and songbirds on breastplates! Yay!
Slip in a few more female gruff PCs who will beat your ass senseless for whatever appropriate reason.
And last but not least -- someone please clear this up for me: Sky. Blue or Red? (The game seems to think both)
P.S.-- the Sand Lord is female. She's just calling herself a Lord to be ironic.
Quote from: "Vesperas"Create a few more armor peices that are "feminine" in real-life perspectives -- more flowers and songbirds on breastplates! Yay!
Slip in a few more female gruff PCs who will beat your ass senseless for whatever appropriate reason.
Wait. You want gruff women who like pretty glowers and sonbirds? That makes no sense to me! Tough != delicate. Songbirds and flowers == delicate.
Quote from: "John"Quote from: "Vesperas"Create a few more armor peices that are "feminine" in real-life perspectives -- more flowers and songbirds on breastplates! Yay!
Slip in a few more female gruff PCs who will beat your ass senseless for whatever appropriate reason.
Wait. You want gruff women who like pretty glowers and sonbirds? That makes no sense to me! Tough != delicate. Songbirds and flowers == delicate.
They don't have to be wearing the "new" armor. :P It's just more selection for the players, male or female, or want to be delicate, but armored.
You can be kickass and still be feminine just as much as a man can be manly and be kickass duh.
Some solutions (Which I think mostly depend on the players.)
-Less catty, strong woman, not necessarily manly, just women that act strong.
-If your female PC encounters a male PC going on about what it means to "be a man" be like where I come from the only difference is what's between ye' legs!
-Armor that appeals to both artsy or delicate and gruff designs. And more skirts Or armor designed to fit around women's breasts more easily!
-Men realizing that just because you wear something ornate doesn't mean it's "girly" such as leaf, or flower patterned gear or clothing. Especially in Tuluk they are very proud of their comparitive lush grasslands and the neighboring forest at least I've always thought so. And it's an expression of art as well.
-People to be self aware about using terms like:
"Don't be swing like a girl."
"You need to have balls to do this or that."
While people said I don't have a problem with quirri quarrels for girls, and banging heads together like duskhorn for guys. I don't have a problem for either of these as long as they would be used equally for either sex. If you are going to say either of these things be just as likely to say it about either sex.
This maybe how you know you are being sexist, is what you are saying reversible?
If you would say, women and their quirri quarrels about women would you say, Look at those men quirri quarreling. Look at those women banging heads like duskhorn.
If you would say, That takes balls! Would you on the flip side say, That takes tits!
The Byn will make a man out of you! The Byn will make a woman out of you! And if you would - don't just say you would to assure yourself you're not being sexist, do it! It will help fade the line between sexism.
And on that note, I'm locking the thread since there's been some recent silly posts.