So, I'm pretty new, but I'm finding it difficult to sort out what is armor, what isn't armor, and how protective said armor is if it is indeed armor. Phew. The main deal is, IC I feel like I should be able to judge how stiff and sturdy something is by handling it, if not looking at it. As it stands, I've found no way to do such a thing short of trial and error (maybe death).
I think it would be neat if when you examine an object, you got a short little blurb about how protective the item is. Something along the lines of:
You think this item will minimally protect you.
You think this item will somewhat protect you.
You think this item will offer decent protection.
You think this item will protect you well.
You think this item will offer excellent protection.
Or whatever.
editted for a few overt typos
Examine the ldesc instead.. If it says 'chitin', chitin protects well.. If it's studded leather, still fine. If it's just some sandcloth, don't wait a lot.
In Zalanthas, items are consistent. If it says it's masterfully crafted silt-horror shell plates, it for sure has a lot more protection value than anything. If it says it's comfortably sandcloth fitting loosely, it possibly increases your move points. If there's an exception, bug it.
Generally speaking, you can tell how good armor is depending on the material, its weight and the quality as described in its description.
The ranking guideline is something like this:
Cloth
Hide
Leather
Wood
Bone
Chitin and shell
Obsidian
Tortoiseshell
Silt horror chitin
Metal
Sandcloth usually isn't armor, but reinforced sandcloth probably is. Look at the item and use the View command, and before long you'll get used to it. Adding an estimate of the armor's protective value will most likely cause people to start min/maxing.
People already min/max their armor, within their PC's budget and within the bounds of their experience.
Furthermore, characters -would- min/max their armor, and people who fight for a living would damn well -know- exactly what is and isn't good enough to keep them safe.
The current "mystery"-based system serves only to confuse newbies and offer yet another advantage to experienced players, who have been around long enough to test and try out just about every armor there is out there.
You shouldn't have to play for years just to finally figure out for certain what good armor is, quite frankly. The min/max argument isn't a good one, since it already happens anyway. (Think about it: what is the -first- piece of armor to disappear from the merchants in Allanak after -every- reboot?)
I think a vague category-based assessment system for armor is perfectly reasonable, just like the category-based stat reporting system for characters is perfectly reasonable.
Yeah, I think a some indication of protective value might not be a bad idea, but I think that having that knowledge would stem from some "value"-like skill that maybe only warriors and a couple subclasses get (and maybe merchants). I think the ability to accurately evaluate a piece of armor (or a weapon) is definitely a learned skill.
-- X
(This is just my opinion as a player, not staff, and not a promise to implement the idea. But, I do kinda like it. :)
I second Xygax's post. A skill to determine would be best, as opposed to just a tag that ANYONE can see.
Also, Synthesis, even newbies can use logic. If you look at the types of material, you can make a logical assumption as to the protective value of the equipment. Especially if you read the helpfiles, it even specifically mentions certain things that make good armor, or says that they have a tough hide.
Logic > Experience. Lets try to use some.
Actually, I think in the subtext of Synthesis' post, he's saying that sometimes guessing based on weight and materials isn't enough (which is true, some armor is just plain built wrong in our item-database, for example).
That said, I hope people will focus more on what seems right for their character than on whether X piece of armor has one or two points of protection more than Y.
-- X
That seems like its more a buggy piece of armor, since you mentioned that its 'built wrong'. I just think reading the item's description can usually tell you how good the protection of the item would be.
Though I wouldn't mind an assess-protection skill for warriors, as long as it was vague, and didn't say like '24 AC' etc.
I think it'd be great to allow players a bit of knowledge as to how good armor is. On another mud I've played, it was possible to 'compare' items and see which would be better. I think that'd work well - if you hold two different helmets, it should be relatively simple to see which one would protect your head better.
However, I'd be disappointed if this was made a warrior-only skill. First of all, they are not the only combat oriented characters. Warriors are the best at fighting, but that does not (IMO) mean that they have monopolized any skill that is vaguely connected to combat. Should a ranger, assassin or an armor-crafter not be able to tell? A few topic-related things that have always annoyed me are:
:arrow: The fact that you have no idea what an item weighs if you don't have a very good value skill or want to pay to have it weighed by an NPC. If I'm holding an object in my hand, I should have a fairly accurate idea of how much it weighs, especially if it's somewhat light.
:arrow: And the fact that some things are restricted to one or two guilds even though it's something that I think makes sense for everyone to get (just with a reasonably low skill cap to simulate an amateur). [Edited out some stuff. Didn't know starting skills were a secret...]
Sorry for the lengthy and somewhat off-topic rant, I just think that there are certain skills that it makes no sense for some people not to have.
Hymwen, please edit out all references to which class gets which skills. Thank you.
A lot of guilds various skill-restrictions reflect the fact that this is still a game, and we as the staff feel that this structure promotes the atmosphere and content of the game by creating situations where PCs with specialized skills must rely on other PCs with differently specialized skills. It creates conflict and interaction, and also gives less incentive toward skill-maxxing.
Incidentally, just because you don't have a skill doesn't mean that you cannot succeed at actions that require it.
-- X
I'd be all for it as a skill like value. If someone didn't have it they'd probably get wildly inaccurate reports, someone that did have it would likely get something moderately accurate. And I'd say warriors and merchants only plus certain subclasses. Why? Because warriors are the only guild that lives and dies solely by fighting, rangers have a lot of noncombat abilities already and could really get by in the game with just the forage command if they wanted to. And if it's given to some subclasses and merchants then other combat characters would have an option of taking a subclass to get the skill at a low cap or could just go to their friendly neighborhood merchant to get the info they want.
That said I say this from a perspective where I think a lot of what rangers already get/branch should only be given in subclasses. This isn't to start a stupid rangers vs. warriors debate (please don't) but I am a little biased :wink:
I would rather this not be in at all, I think too many people would be min/maxing with it.
You can say 'look at the one piece of armor that is bought the soonest from Allanak' but the problem would only be worse if everyone magickally knew how good armor was.
I think its just one of those things that should be experimented with IC and towards what is right for a character, not what armor is the most l33t.
^ Bogre wrote my post for me.
Would just lead to everybody wearing the same junk because a skill said so. Don't like it.
I'm not entirely sure that's true. There are a number of other factors involved in choosing a piece of gear beyond just how protective it is. Some people may prefer gear that helps them in the desert, or gear that suits their house "dress code", if any, or lighter gear, or heavier gear, etc.
-- X
There are multiple factors that go into what you choose to wear.
Protection, weight, heat, noise,cost.
Depending on what your chosen profession is, you shouldn't just base things on protection.
Edit: That said - I love the idea of "eval" that is class based. Warriors can eval protectiveness and damage. Rangers camoflage and temperature control. Thieves stealth and noise reduction. Merchants all of the above?
And you can be assured when it says in the description..
Quotethis item's thick form offers superior protection
Quote from: "jmordetsky"Edit: That said - I love the idea of "eval" that is class based. Warriors can eval protectiveness and damage. Rangers camoflage and temperature control. Thieves stealth and noise reduction. Merchants all of the above?
I think this is a great idea.
I played a Salarri Agent when Ix was still around. She told me that she was working on a project to go through all the armor in the game and standardize it...like, heavy protection comes with stamina penalties etc etc etc. Basically, the point here is that NOT everything can be figured out simply by reading the description...and I'd maintain testing, as well. Two objects with similar descriptions, including the same adjectives may offer grossly different benefits. This doesn't make sense, and people should be able to see what is there...not just what ws described. This skill would do that. I like it.
Quote from: "Larrath"Generally speaking, you can tell how good armor is depending on the material, its weight and the quality as described in its description.
The ranking guideline is something like this:
Cloth
Hide
Leather
Wood
Bone
Chitin and shell
Obsidian
Tortoiseshell
Silt horror chitin
Metal
For new comers, as Larrath suggested these are neither exact nor always right categorization.
There is huge protection difference between jozhal and mekillot hides. Like that, there are great differences, between salarri made mek bone helmet, and blackwing crafted mek bone helmet.
I'd like to see some basic categorization as well... both in quality, and weight. I mean one can always say a piece of equipment is twenty six stones or six stones.
Quote from: "Mendel"So, I'm pretty new, but I'm finding it difficult to sort out what is armor, what isn't armor, and how protective said armor is if it is indeed armor. Phew.
I think it is supposed to be difficult to tell minimally protective armor from heavy clothing, I'm not sure.
However, there is a way to tell: If it is sold in an armor shop, it is armor. If it is sold in a clothing shop, it is clothing. There are some NPCs that sell a little of both of course, but if you want to be sure it is armor then shop at an armor store.
Well.
I support the concept of being able to tell what level of protection armor provides. However, if this comes into play, I also strongly support fleshing out what armor actually does to you.