Armageddon General Discussion Board

I've thought about this for a while now and I think there's some changes that could be made to half-giants that would make them a bit more realistic without going too overboard.

1) With a half-giant's enormous size, it should be much harder to inflict wounds upon them. I believe it says somewhere that they have tougher skin (like dwarves), but I don't think it's reflected realistically codewise. I've noticed -no- difference in damage dealt to a hg pc vs. dealt to a non-hg by the same beasts. Half-giants get annihilated by anything fast, halflings, elves, anything that is just -simply- faster than them. It should realistically be harder for such physically weak beings to even hurt a half-giant. Sure, they might be hard for the half-giant to hit and they might land -alot- of hits, but those hits shouldn't even injure them much of the time unless the hg's opponent is a very skilled warrioror very strong.  

2) Starting off with a hg pc is much harder than any others because it costs 4-5 times more to get one equipped. Now, most of them are supposed to have been around for a while and your starting coins is given to your to represent what you'd have aquired up until the point you begin playing them. There are enough hgs existing in the gameworld that more places should sell hg sized stuff.

3) Movement outdoors. I've noticed that movement costs out of doors are approximately the same for a half-giant pc and most other pc races (with the exception of desert elves of course). Due to their size, I think a single stride from a half-giant should carry them a farther distance than a single stride from any other race. (with the exception of desert elves).

Here's my ideas to fix them up a bit and make them a bit more realistic and more appealing to people to play:

1) Increase their natural armor. Make it so that it takes a very strong, or skilled warrior to injure them. Anyone other than a very strong or skilled warrior shouldn't even be facing off against a half-giant solo. It is currently too easy for people to do so.

2) Increase the starting coin slightly -or- make it so that more hg sized stuff is available through the major arms/armor dealers. Salarr.

3) Decrease movement costs for hgs out of doors. Place them somewhere between movement costs for d-elves and movement costs for other races. I personally would like to see more people play hgs in the game. I think the wisdom and agility negatives are enough to balance things out, especially since many have a problem with playing dumb pcs anyway. I think these changes, or some similar or to create a similar end result would make it more realistic and make them more appealing to players.

Thoughts or ideas?

I havn't played them to know what their natural armor is like, I don't know that I agree it needs to be stronger, is their skin supposed to be significantly harder than normal skin?  I don't think so, nor do I see what you are refering to in the help files.  So I don't see why their natural armor should be increased.

Movement.  They stride larger, but spend more energy having to do it.  It would even out, I would agree with their walk speed being increased so smaller races need to work harder to keep up, but I don't think they should actually be able to move longer distances.

Starting coin.  Here is a place I have to totally disagree.  Half giants nine times our of ten, are probably going to be bred, or belong to a house.  Sure half giants might get together, get jiggy and accidentally have a baby, but more likely than not, both of those half giants already belong to a house or are slaves or what have you.  Starting coin would suggest they have some sort of solo wealth.  They shouldn't.  I feel half giants should be treated a lot like a mul in that a half giant should in most cases maybe even need to be app'd with a house in mind.  I just can't imagine a family of half giants living in an apartment in allanak with their half giant children, or a tribe of half giants for that matter.  They take such a ridiculous amount to feed and cloth that it seems more likely to me they would almost all already belong to someone in one way or another.

QuoteHere is a place I have to totally disagree. Half giants nine times our of ten, are probably going to be bred, or belong to a house. Sure half giants might get together, get jiggy and accidentally have a baby, but more likely than not, both of those half giants already belong to a house or are slaves or what have you. Starting coin would suggest they have some sort of solo wealth. They shouldn't.

Nowhere does it say that a half-giant pc must be a slave or belong to a house. It is not a requirement of making a half-giant pc so that argument to the point is invalid.

You want HGs to be MORE powerful?

Any HG off the starting block can wash and wax any other PC pretty much no matter what.  HG merch vs halfling warrior - pwned.

HGs don't need to be more powerful.  They need to be played better.

As for the starting cash idea, scrap it.  HGs are forgetful.  They aren't going to have a knack for counting coins and keeping track of them.  It costs more to equip them because they're freakin huge.  There are a lot of HGs, yes, but there are a lot of people in the world over the height of 6'5".  Not every place on earth sells clothing for people that large.

HGs do not get annihilated by anything quicker then them.  If this is your experience, then I would suggest you look more at the strengths of your character and use them directly.

HGs have longer legs, but they also weigh a bajillion times more than a human.  Sure, they can stride farther, but it still tires them out to move that much bulk... considering the fact that most of them wear and carry heavy crap all the time, I think that the movement cost is completely valid.

Quote from: "HalflingWhore"

QuoteHere is a place I have to totally disagree. Half giants nine times our of ten, are probably going to be bred, or belong to a house. Sure half giants might get together, get jiggy and accidentally have a baby, but more likely than not, both of those half giants already belong to a house or are slaves or what have you. Starting coin would suggest they have some sort of solo wealth. They shouldn't.

Nowhere does it say that a half-giant pc must be a slave or belong to a house. It is not a requirement of making a half-giant pc so that argument to the point is invalid.

True it doesn't say it, I'm going out on a limb.  I'm going out on a limb and I'm trying to imagine a half giant household.  I'm failing miserably to come up with one.  I don't think they exist, or they'd be damned rare.

Lets look at what we know about half giants:

1) They are stupid, way too trusting and in general not good managers of anything (think money).

2) They are expensive, expensive to feed, expensive to clothe.  I've never even seen a house with half giant tennants in mind, at least, not barracks.

3) They are fairly coveted by houses for their raw ability to mash everything in sight.

My conclusion based off of those three facts, is that half giants are probably very rarely solo from birth and are probably bred or made between two half giants already in a house and therefore the kid would end up in the house too.

It may not be in the help files, but I think these are pretty logical steps to make and I actually think it probably should be in the help files.  Unless a staffer wants to disagree with me.

QuoteAny HG off the starting block can wash and wax any other PC pretty much no matter what. HG merch vs halfling warrior - pwned.

Have you actually -played- a half-giant pc? I've tested this exact example on more than one occasion and the half-giant pcs with BADASS stats got rocked by halfling hunters or warriors.

Half-giants are utterly scary, especially if they manage to get themselves a little training.

They really don't need to be beefed up.

And they already have the ability to walk a lot further than, say, humans.

QuoteAnd they already have the ability to walk a lot further than, say, humans.

This is completely false.

The HG I played had a lot more stamina than any of the humans I've rolled up. He was able to walk almost the entire way from Allanak to Luir's without a rest.

I see no logic why an HG would start off with more coin than anyone else would.

As far as natural armor: HGs are essentially just really really big, strong people. I don't believe it says anywhere that they're any more resilient than humans except by virtue of their size. HGs also start off with lots more HP than your average human will, this means they CAN take more punishment.

I definitely don't think HG's need to become more powerful. They already smash other races (don't know about muls, I've never seen one fight). As for giving them "bouncy skin"? You want it so that only master warriors can hurt them? That would become incredibly lame, very very fast. They have amazing endurance which gives them a health and stamina advantage, and I think that's sufficient to portray their superior toughness, and it also lets them walk further than most others.

As far as starting money, I think it's fair that people who are over twice the size of everyone else have trouble finding equipment that fits.

Yeah, half-giants have more HP, but this is completely counteracted by the fact they take double or triple the damage a human would, due to their low agility and the effect this has on damage rolls.  I've seen relatively unskilled elven assassins with cheap daggers inflict grievous wounds on half-giant warriors.

And no, half-giants don't get a lot more stamina.  Even with a good endurance roll, you're only going to get a few dozen more stamina points.

The main problem with half-giants is that they're only "utterly scary" on the offensive side of the equation, and this only after a -lot- of combat training (combat training that is essentially impossible to get in a clan, unless you have the extremely good fortune to be in the clan with another half-giant).  Defensively, they never come close to what even a dwarf of the same class could achieve.

A secondary problem is that the offensive bonus that they do get nowhere near reflects the actual amount of damage they should be capable of inflicting.  I think a seasoned half-giant should be able to kill any regular humanoid instantly with a good hit.  As it stands, a human or elf warrior with the same level of experience can inflict more damage per unit of time than a half-giant, for several reasons: 1) Half-giants are basically stuck with using one weapon and a shield, unless they have people to "tank" (hack and slash term, forgive me) for them; 2) Half-giants attack ridiculously slowly, due to their obscenely low agility; and 3) Half-giants don't inflict nearly the kind of damage that they should, given their insane strength.

The agility modifiers are fine, in my opinion.  The strength problem is still real.  Half-giants can weigh up to a ton, if I recall the ranges correctly.  Now, look at the strength differences in humans:  in virtually all combat sports, weight divisions are broken down into ranges of ten pounds at the most, because size and strength differences give larger opponents huge advantages.  Put a lightweight against a heavyweight, and you're going to end up with a seriously broken lightweight, given equal skill, and that's only a 70 lb. difference.  The difference between the heaviest (fit) human and the heaviest half-giant is over 1,700 lbs.  

I don't think any humanoid should ever come even -close- to equalling a half-giant in combat.  A half-giant should be able to wade into a battlefied and leave nothing but mangled human corpses in his wake.  Swipes of his arm should kill two or three seasoned vets at a time, sending them flying over the awed heads of their comrades.  A punch from a half-giant should be roughly the equivalent of having an anvil launched into you at 60mph.

I think half-giant weapons and armor should reflect this strength, as well.

No more swords and wussy polearms, and no more armor designed to be lightweight -and- protective.  Half-giant weapons should be gigantic hunks of stone or solid wood, able to withstand their brutal strength.  A half-giant can pick up three or four human corpses and be only slightly burdened...a half-giant's weapon should be three-hundred pounds of unbreakable death on a shaft.  Baobab trunks lined with salt-worm teeth.  Boulders attached to gigantic ropes, designed to be whirled over the heads of your tiny allies and thumped down into enemy lines, instantly killing several foes at a time.  Huge hollow javelins filled with glassy shards of obsidian, hurled into the air and impacting with enough force to send deadly shrapnel whizzing through the air.

Half-giant armor should be layers of chitin fixed together, impervious to anything short of another half-giant's blow.  Or thick planks of wood fitted together...an entire layer of protective wood that would resist everything but fire.  The legs and arms should be lined with bone spikes and chitin razors, every kick should flay skin from bone, and every punch should impale.  Half-giants with this kind of armor wouldn't need weapons at all...they would only need to be sent marching toward the enemy, and the movement alone would be devastating.

Currently, all we have is half-giants restricted to the same ho-hum combat style as every other type of humanoid, with only extra damage to reflect their ability to devastate.  Unfortunately, this means that half-giants are nowhere near as dangerous as they by all rights ought to be.  It only takes a few humanoids ganging up, and even the most skilled half-giant will be nicked and grazed to death, through the thickest armor, before he manages to land enough blows to kill even one of them.  This simply shouldn't happen.

QuoteI don't think any humanoid should ever come even -close- to equalling a half-giant in combat. A half-giant should be able to wade into a battlefied and leave nothing but mangled human corpses in his wake. Swipes of his arm should kill two or three seasoned vets at a time, sending them flying over the awed heads of their comrades. A punch from a half-giant should be roughly the equivalent of having an anvil launched into you at 60mph.

I don't ever see that happening. In a game with perma-death, noone wants non-magickers who can "kill two or three seasoned vets with a swipe of his arm". Yeah, from a purely realism point of view perhaps it could be that way, but you can't have a race that makes the character twenty times more powerful than other races of the same guild. From a balance point of view, we just can't have people walking around in the streets who are capable of killing half the city on their own.

Thank you for that excellent analysis Synthesis.  I'm going to just underline a few of the points in order to support two of the original poster's suggestions -- making HG's inherently more impervious to blows and upping the starting coin.

HG's are incredibly weak defensively mainly because of their inability to dodge blows. While the low agility is as it should be, it brings with it a double penalty in that they can't land many blows either.  When one finally lands, it's huge, but by then the HG could well be near death.

Their massive size, of itself, should bring some defensive perks. Those mounds of flesh should be harder to really harm. I mean, think of it this way, two equal blows with the same weapon to a dog and to a moose. Which one do you think would do more damage? (As a side note: I've seen a car hit a moose head on at highway speeds. The car was totalled. The moose swayed on its feet a moment then ambled on across the highway.)

HG's are ridiculously expensive to equip.  I'll accept the argument that it ought to be harder to find outsize gear. However, not the one that they are bad with money and so wouldn't have extra coins. Your starting gear is supposed to represent what you've taken years in acquiring.

The game isn't about balance, Hymwen.  That's a typically newbie thing to say, and you've said it repeatedly on various topics.  This game -is- about realism, as long as it doesn't affect -playability-.

Half-giants are a level of karma above common magickers.  There are reasons for that: 1) They are difficult to play properly; 2) They are dangerous; and 3) Their power is easily abused.

Races are not balanced.  Classes are not balanced.  That's the way it is, because that's the way the world is.  The problem here is that half-giants are underpowered, plain and simple.  Making half-giants more powerful would not negatively affect playability for anyone, except those who currently are taking them lightly.

And no, rogue half-giants would not be capable of destroying half the city.  There is a reason that the Templarate of both city-states keeps large numbers of half-giants employed, and the problem of rogue half-giants is one of them.

Quote from: "Hymwen"we just can't have people walking around in the streets who are capable of killing half the city on their own.

That's what muls are for.

I'm all for beefing up HG's, but just raise their karma level.

Think, half-giant = cave troll from Lord of the rings. You saw how those things wrecked the human lines?

Beefed up half-giants would probably have to cost more than muls...

Hot Dancer

Quote from: "Synthesis"Currently, all we have is half-giants restricted to the same ho-hum combat style as every other type of humanoid, with only extra damage to reflect their ability to devastate. Unfortunately, this means that half-giants are nowhere near as dangerous as they by all rights ought to be. It only takes a few humanoids ganging up, and even the most skilled half-giant will be nicked and grazed to death, through the thickest armor, before he manages to land enough blows to kill even one of them. This simply shouldn't happen.

Exactly. All they have going for them is some extra strength and extra hp. And those do not reflect how dangerous they realistically should be.

Every half-giant pc I've played has been absolutely slaughtered by things that I've been able to take out with a newbie human,elf, or some dwarf warriors (that also were statistically above the norm).
It's just not right. I wouldn't be against beefing them up to make them realistically what they should be and up'ing them a bit karma-wise.

Quote from: "UnderSeven"My conclusion based off of those three facts, is that half giants are probably very rarely solo from birth and are probably bred or made between two half giants already in a house and therefore the kid would end up in the house too.

Okay, how about this: Most PC half-giants aren't slaves.

Half giants have ridiculous strength and because of that they have awesome hp and stamina.. being someone who's taken on a decently skilled Half giant carrying a two handed battle axe.. I'm against making them any tougher as it is. They're damage is ridiculous most of the time, the agi and wis makes up for that though. They're fine as they are IMO

Quote from: "Synthesis"The game isn't about balance, Hymwen.  That's a typically newbie thing to say, and you've said it repeatedly on various topics.  This game -is- about realism, as long as it doesn't affect -playability-.

The game isn't about balance, no, but balance is still the reason why you can't have your HG killing 3 people in one blow. Do you seriously honestly want HGs to do that? Do you think that realism justifies a race, regardless of how much karma it requires, to be a one-man army? There's a reason why the PCs who can do that - defilers, psis and other such madmen - can do so at the steep cost of solitude and being hated by every living thing in the world. You can't have killing power like that walking around in the streets. Asking for your character to be able to kill several people per swing is just insane. And thanks a lot for calling me newbie, that sure backed up your statement.

Quote from: "Sakra"

Quote from: "Hymwen"we just can't have people walking around in the streets who are capable of killing half the city on their own.

That's what muls are for.

Yes, and muls are very restricted. If you want to play a mul, your choices are to be a slave who is under constant supervision so that you can't go on a rampage, or to be a run-away in Red Storm. That's pretty much it. You can apply for a HG and basically do what you want. You can be a 'rinther and attack whoever you want (and this has happened).

Half-giants are severely restricted by their own stupidity and their habit of imitating those around them.
These are follow-the-leader morons. That itself, restricts them immensely.

Not to mention.. All you 'zomg they could be ABUSEDDDD!!!' people.

FUCKING KARMA RACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  -3- Karma currently, raise it if you buff them.  2 Karma Ruks are scarier than HGs right now.  And!!! THEY THINK FOR THEMSELVES.

wtf.. seriously, c'mon?  You just don't want to lose a character you enjoyed because HGs are accurately portrayed..  admit it.

Quote2 Karma Ruks are scarier than HGs right now. And!!! THEY THINK FOR THEMSELVES.

This is so true.

A 2 karma Rukkian is scarier than a mul as well..or just about any non magicker.

I'm more towards comparing mul and half giants at their karma rate.. since, I seem to remember muls having their price hiked due to the increasing nature of players using them commonly for raiders..and their imposed rarity.

(Too bad this happened as soon as I got mul karma)

Hot Dancer

First, I've played half-giants, from rangers to magickers to warriors and let met state.

They need no changes. Period.

Right out of the box my HG mages have been able to crush pretty much anything they wanted to without spells. Once they had reasonable magick ability...well, it was nearly silly.

I have a HG warrior(near 20 days played), I had stored mostly because he could wash pretty much anything that he came up against.

To any that think they need help. HAH, I say, you have never seen a HG warrior with good shield skill, good parry and a big ass blunt weapon in action. I myself have. And this knowledge means that any of my non-HG pc's, no matter how buff/scary/uber treat ALL HG's with an extreme amount of respect, if they don't just outright scream like a girl and run.

HG movement.
They are already the fastest race in the game and can easily outrun (speed wise) A desert elf. I know, I've done so many times over.

Outfitting
Yes, its many times more costly to do so, who cares, part of the fun.

Hell, if HG's started with no cash, it would not bother me..cept that would mean a lot more pc kills by starting HG's for cash..:)

I haven't played HGs much.  I have trouble playing a character that talks all the time without accidentally saying something clever.  (A character that doesn't talk all the time just doesn't work for me at all.)

However, I think half-giant hide should be at least as tough as dwarf hide, if it isn't already.  Early on I had a dwarf merchant hunting some little animal, and it's blows kept bouncing off my dwarf's tough hide.  I haven't every tried killing a similar animal with a HG, but I hope that their skin is just as tough.


  * * * *


I believe that some HGs are raised outside of large organizations.  There are HGs that do not work for the Great Houses.  They aren't known for great loyalty, a HG could simply wander from one small band to another, on job to another, one group of exploitive friends to another.  HGs taking lifetime loyalty oaths always make me giggle, because if they see someone more interesting they probably won't even remember promising to stay forever.  There are HG NPCs that don't wear the livery of any House.  

It costs more to keep a half-giant or a bunch of half-giant kids fed.  But a half-giant day labourer can easily make more money than anyone else.  A half-giant lumberjack or obsidian miner can carry many times what a human could, and can probably carry more than a human with a kank can carry.  (They do have trouble finding mounts, but now they can at least use pack animals.)  He works all morning, stops for lunch, goes back out for a couple hours in the afternoon, and has a nice evening at home with plenty of money.  You don't have to be smart to knock down trees.




Are half-giants smart enough to raise their own children?  Heck, hamsters are smart enough to raise their own children (though they may eat a few) and hamsters are like the stupidest mammals ever.  The bits about giving birth and nursing can be managed by maternal instincts as much as formal training.  Adult half-giants are used to not stepping on tiny people, they have to practice that from the time they are children because the neighbours get cranky when young half-giants squish things, so I doubt that they often squish their own babies.  Kids are resilient.  

Even without a Great House, a half-giant probably isn't raising her kids with no help at all.  Her friends and neighbours will offer advice, for self-preservation if for no other reason.  She will also see tons of other people raise kids before she is able to have any of her own (half-giants mature more slowly than humans).  Half-giants are good at mimicry, so she will play house and do the things she sees other mothers do.  She might not do them perfectly, but kids don't really need things done perfectly.  I don't have any kids, but I've heard people talk about raising kids, and about how much more they fuss over the first kid than over the third kid or the eighth kid, and those latter kids survive just fine.  Babies are born with an excellent alarm system that goes off whenever they are hungry, filthy, lonely or otherwise in distress.  You don't have to be smart to notice that the baby is crying.


People routinely leave 12 year olds babysitting little kids.  It is common for children under 12 to be left watching their younger siblings for hours at a time.  Half-giants are as capable of taking care of babies as 10 year old humans (or hamsters).



A half-giant might be more likely than any other race to sell a kid into slavery or give it away.  They are vulnerable to smooth talkers.  They might get bored of taking care of kid and want to get rid of it.  They might even have too many kids to take care of and sell one (they probably aren't good about remembering to take the mul mix, or getting the correct (huge) doses of mul mix).



Unless the staff says differently, I'm going to continue to assume that unaffiliated half-giants exist and that they sometimes raise children.


Angela Christine

I loved that post AC.

Quote from: "Angela Christine"(A character that doesn't talk all the time just doesn't work for me at all.)

Gee, I wouldn't have guessed from your posts.  :D

Quote from: "John"

Quote from: "UnderSeven"My conclusion based off of those three facts, is that half giants are probably very rarely solo from birth and are probably bred or made between two half giants already in a house and therefore the kid would end up in the house too.

Okay, how about this: Most PC half-giants aren't slaves.

I never said they were, if you read my post you might of come off with the idea I was trying to say the likely worked for or belonged to a house, the ultimate point I was trying to make is it's probably rare or unusal for a halfgiant not to have some sort of non-half giant benefactor.

EDIT: How bout reading my post more carefully before responding that way next time.

Quote from: "X-D"To any that think they need help. HAH, I say, you have never seen a HG warrior with good shield skill, good parry and a big ass blunt weapon in action.

Apparently I haven't in all my time playing here. I've never encountered a half-giant pc that couldn't be easily defeated by a human, elf, or even dwarf pc of fewer days. (Oh wait...I take that back. There was -one-.)

They're ridiculously underpowered for what they -should- be.

Rukkians are simply my favourites. If a mundane char -or five- decides to attack a bit seasoned rukkian, they learn the meaning of being pawned. If a mage decides to attack a rukkian, even an unprepared defiler, he learns the meaning of being pawned. Half-giants are not three karma because they're stronger than rukkians. Half-giants are three karma because they are harder to play and they require more responsibility.

A few days-old h-giant ranger/warrior may sweep away gith with ease. But they're to be rather good tools instead of self-inscribed killing machines. They don't go 'try' killing halfling hunters. Why? They learn from humans and humans avoid halflings at all costs before they become the immense killing machines. Why should a half-giant go try killing a halfling, if not told to in the beginning? We should all read and digest the helpfiles first.

Their skin is thicker, life dwarven skins are.. How? Add %h and %H to your prompt and you get it. They already have larger strides and don't get tired too easily. How? Add %v and %V to your prompt and you get it. But they're like elephants, huge legs carrying huge mass. If you want to run around the known world, d-elves are what you seek.

I don't think half-giants are nerfed at all and I don't think they need any enchance to their stats.

Well, I've had a good bit of hg xp in the last little while. The arguments for both sides have been pretty interesting.

Tougher skin, yeah I think I could really see this happening. Even if their skin isn't really, tougher, as per se, think about it this way.

Stab a human very hard with a longknife, that thing is a good 25-30% of the way into their body.

Stab a hg very hard with a longknife, that thing is maybe 4% of the way in.

H-G's are ten times larger in terms of mass for the most part, thats ten times more blood to loose, etc. They do get more hp, but only twice as much really.

2. Definately not more money. They are bad accountants.

3. Longer stride should really be happening, even walking for 30 min with a friend who is alot shorter then you will show how much pace size makes a difference in stamina drain. They can take four human paces in one.

If you search for previous topics on this matter, you'd see I've said this for a long time.

No, I don't want Half-giants absolutely -destroying- entire masses of people.

Yes, I -do- want half-giant size more accurately portrayed.  I don't want things this massive and strong taken out so easily just for agility penalties.

I realize that half-giants, over time, can become -very- scary as is.  I also realize that this is the same with nearly everyone of a class.  The fact is, a half-giant warrior should be scary because of his race, not his playing time.

I don't remember the ideas I brought up in the past.  I just remember people did not like this idea.  If you want to restart this thread, I'd encourage looking back at past threads to see what defenses you have to counter (I'm already seeing some of them repeated...over and over.)

So, thinking back on past posts of my own, and pet peeves having to do with half-giants.

Yes, Like armaddict said, the size needs a more accurate portrayal if nothing else.

Because of the diff in agility, somehow or another things 6-8 feet shorter then the HG manage to get in there, do some super ninja jump, tag the HG in the head and neck with some tiny weapon doing massive damage and all without any leverage at all, THEN manage to super ninja flip back out of the range of the massive HG weapon. Usually managing to do so several times per swing of the HG.

I'd have to say, that when you are actually thinking about it, watching this happen is EASILY the least realistic aspect of the game to date. Magick and PSI are easier to swallow.

And exactly how is it that a 60lbs halfling manages to break free of the grip of a 2,000 pound half-giant again? He chew the fingers off? Hell, even that would take some time. And during that time, why was it the HG was not able to reach over and pop that halflings head off like a beercap?

And why can't Half-giants throw smaller pc's into objects for damage?

And why can't they use said PC as an improvised weapon, I mean come on, that half-elf is smaller then his massive club the size of a mul's thigh.


Now, I also have to say, Lately, I've seen MUCH better rp by the players as a whole around HG's then just two years ago, Kudos to all that have read the docs and are playing to them.

I've never met a powerful half-giant.  I don't know if this is because they never live long enough to become powerful, or if because they are seriously underpowered.  Personally, I think that the reason is both.

However, a half-giant shouldn't have to live a long time to become a melee nightmare.  Much in the way a mekillot doesn't have to train to be a mekillot.  It simply IS one.

Quote from: "EvilRoeSlade"I've never met a powerful half-giant.  I don't know if this is because they never live long enough to become powerful, or if because they are seriously underpowered.  Personally, I think that the reason is both.

Personally, I think you don't see many highly powered half giants because people get bored with playing them, and they store.

Either playing stupid gets old because you've done every gag from every movie or comic book or other RPG you know, or playing naiive and following some other guy around gets old because all you ever end up doing is the same exact thing.

Actually.

I think they generally die, Davien.

If they were to be changed, their karma should be significantly upped.

I'm disgusted with at least a quarter of the half-giants I meet, RPwise.

Half-giants are perfectly fine the way they are.

QuoteHalf-giants are perfectly fine the way they are.

Hence the reason why there has been -no- debate whatsoever in any threads saying such.

Anyone who has played a half-wit realizes that their size has already been figured in to their killability.  They are big, strong, but slow and stupid brutes.

Naughty monkey says that  Half-giants are bad-ass enough as it is.

But who cares what I say?   :twisted:

I'm quite positively sure that a skilled halfgiant (and you get them skilled sooner or later) can do INCREDIBLE damage.

if you cant, you dont know how to play.

(additionally if a HG hits you with a blunt thing on your head, you -have- your wanted instant knockout)

---theebie---

1. Their increased stamina reflects this.

2. No, that's one of the challenges of playing a half-giant.  It needs to stay as is, IMO.

3. Half-giants can already almost out-walk a kank.

Quote3. Half-giants can already almost out-walk a kank.

I don't see where people are getting this. It just isn't true. I had a hg pc with exceptional endurance and it had only slightly more stamina points than a human with exceptional human endurance.

And half-giants extra hp doesn't mean shit when an enemy gets like 20 attacks to his one and they almost all hit with full damage. It's way too easy to hurt them, far easier than it should be.

QuoteI don't see where people are getting this. It just isn't true. I had a hg pc with exceptional endurance and it had only slightly more stamina points than a human with exceptional human endurance.

Uh? I had a young h-giant PC with poor endurance and he had 1.5 times a usual human's stamina. You are really sure about that?

If I attacked an eight year old with a massive wooden broadsword, he wouldn't last longer than it took me to close the distance and make a swipe. Even if he was far, far quicker than me, if he got anywhere near enough to poke me with anything I would lop off an arm because of my superior reach and strength.

Up halfgiant dexterity a bit, I say.

-WP will never again play a HG, but he likes the idea of them being more uber.

Quote from: "Cenghiz"

QuoteI don't see where people are getting this. It just isn't true. I had a hg pc with exceptional endurance and it had only slightly more stamina points than a human with exceptional human endurance.

Uh? I had a young h-giant PC with poor endurance and he had 1.5 times a usual human's stamina. You are really sure about that?

100%. Just checked it out not less than two days ago. *Edit to remove numbers.* Sorry, wasn't thinking. I think that a pm would have sufficed rather than derailing with that post as well.

Please... for the LOVE OF TEK stop posting actual numbers!

There's no need to discuss things with such detail... there's no reason to assert your opinion on this discussion board using IC information. This is the kind of stuff left for the IMMs to discuss on THEIR board with such detail.

There seems to be a distrubing trend appearing in recent threads of people wanting to assert themselves as 'knowledgeable' in one area or another and listing off detailed IC information to back up this assertion.

You can dicuss things conceptually without getting into the hard numbers.. and in fact you're supposed to. So from one player to another... Please STOP.

Yep, and Jhunter, go take a look at dakkon black's post.

Quote from: "Aldiel"Yep, and Jhunter, go take a look at dakkon black's post.

AND???!!! Don't see your point.

Quote from: "Kalden"If they were to be changed, their karma should be significantly upped.

I'm disgusted with at least a quarter of the half-giants I meet, RPwise.

Come on, this isn't very constructive.  It may be that the half-giants you have encountered have been special apps or something because everyone I know with the karma to play a HG is a solid good Rper.

Not to rattle the cage, but this discussion should probably get back on topic, and a bit more under control, or it will be locked. Don't post IC stuff. Don't post actual numbers. Do post constructive critiscm which adds to the discussion.

Quote from: "WarriorPoet"Up halfgiant dexterity a bit, I say.

I concur.   I've played a lot of half-giants, and having such a low agility gives them too many disadvantages, far more disadvantages in combat and other situations than they really ought to have.  They don't need to be desert elves, but they should be closer to dwarves than they are now.

Quote from: "EvilRoeSlade"

Quote from: "WarriorPoet"Up halfgiant dexterity a bit, I say.

I concur.   I've played a lot of half-giants, and having such a low agility gives them too many disadvantages, far more disadvantages in combat and other situations than they really ought to have.  They don't need to be desert elves, but they should be closer to dwarves than they are now.

I think either this or increasing their natural armor a bit more would fix them up nicely.

Two staffmembers have said HGs aren't going to change, and are fine.

Theres really no point to the discussion.  And, as my own personal satirist has indicated, its getting far to much IC info bandied about.  


Yes, I've been guilty of in the past, but I am cutting down on it, to aid newer players.

Quote from: "diealot 2l2l"Two staffmembers have said HGs aren't going to change, and are fine.

Theres really no point to the discussion.  And, as my own personal satirist has indicated, its getting far to much IC info bandied about.  


Yes, I've been guilty of in the past, but I am cutting down on it, to aid newer players.

This is completely inaccurate. One staffmember gave their opinion that they are fine. Noone from the staff said that -no- change would happen.

This is a discussion, if you have something to add to it fine. But honestly, if all you are going to do is post on it to bitch at other people and act like The Forum Police, take it elsewhere please. Thanks.

..I remember when Naatok ran Blackmoon.. and a certain HG we had in the clan..shudder.

No, I'm not much for HG powering-up.

Hot Dancer

Every HG I've seen has been vastly more powerful than most humans.

Actually, without getting into too much detail...

...I very recently saw a half-giant warrior get utterly schooled by a human warrior.

As in, in the past week.  Both were good warriors, but the human was a great warrior.

Both had above average armor.

The outcome was never in doubt.

I'm not advocate a change or lack thereof for half-giants.  I'm just saying what I've
seen in the recent past.

HG's are fine.

I apologize, I had always thought halaster and naatok were both staff members for some reason.  And, while I understand the idea behind a discussion, if a member of staff (who tend to form a solidarity, so as to keep down confusion) says that HGs are fine, then I sincerely doubt that any changes will be made.  And, those that potentially would be made would be minor.

I am not bitching, and I am not 'acting like the forum police', I am saying that there seems to be a lot of info about the coded 'zomg Hgs can't pwn as well as they should' (which I agree with!) that newbies, and/or people with little Hg experience may not have realized, and -very- little about the actual Rp, and how they should be played etc.  All in all, its giving away the sort of IC info, numbers, stats, weaknesses/strengths to a far more accurate degree than the docs do, which I was just bitched at for in another thread.  

You're mostly just posting because I'm raining on your parade, jhunter.  Hgs are, most likely, not going to be changed.  The thread is devolving into various flames/attacks and way to much IC info.  I suggested cutting it short, instead of just waiting for it to get bad enough for staff to have to start editing/locking.

So, if you're going to sit there and bitch at people for arguing for caution about IC info, and more or less just act like a douche-bag, which you may well be, please take it elsewhere. Thanks.  

I, however, will remain, putting in my opinion (visible earlier in the thread, I believe) and arguing caution, so as to keep the game experience fun and exciting for people that haven't experienced as much as jhunter, the end all be all of this thread and board, if one were to believe his posts.

QuoteSo, if you're going to sit there and bitch at people for arguing for caution about IC info, and more or less just act like a douche-bag, which you may well be, please take it elsewhere. Thanks.

There's a blatant FLAME. I thought helpers where supposed to be setting an example for new players. :roll:

The point is you weren't adding anything to the discussion. You were basically telling people on a thread on a discussion board to stop discussing the topic.

Edit: Naatok is not staff....see that flag that says "Legend"? It means former staff.

Can we please tone this thread down?
This thread is a legitimate discussion for a legitimate topic, and the fact that staff members are involved doesn't mean squat.  Staff members, from what I say, rarely post staff policy outside of Ask the Staff, and when they do it's usually explicit.  This is why most posts from staffers have a disclaimer that says "this post is my opinion and not staff policy".
Staff members are people too, and their opinions are usually not much more valuable than the opinion of a very experienced player.  Sure, a staff member knows exactly how the magick code works while most players have to rely on estimates, but this simply isn't that sort of a discussion.

Half-giants have tremendous strengths and tremendous weaknesses from what I've seen, and I agree that half-giants don't seem to attract as much fear as they should.  This is partially because many (if not most) half-giants are played somewhat poorly and also because a truly experienced fighter, especially one with very high agility, has very little reason to fear a half-giant.  Realistically a fight between a halfling and a half-giant would have the halfling roll around and cut at the half-giant's shins until the giant managed to stomp on its head and kill it.  Codedly, it seems that most halfling NPCs can beat the snot out of a half-giant.

Let's not argue whose opinion is worth more, because it's completely futile.  Let's cut it down on the flames and on the condescending attitude.
And by the way, saying "I'm not going to flame you, you idiot" doesn't fool anyone; it's still a flame.
Flaming hurts the forums, so please don't hurt the forums.  If you do, you will be burned to death as per the Jewish lex talionis of "Measure For Measure".

nevermind

Ok, for all you guys who don't think half-giants rock as much as they should, here's something fun to try.  Go try and <assault with specific skill> one, or better yet, try to <assault with a different specific skill> one.  See what happens.  :P   They are realistic.

[EDIT:  By Xygax, to preserve a surprise or two]

Quote from: "Larrath"a truly experienced fighter, especially one with very high agility, has very little reason to fear a half-giant.

As a staff member, I can assure you that this is not a correct assumption.  There are coded combat techniques that very much take size and strength into account in measuring you versus your opponent, and which can instantly give a half-giant the upper hand, without any regard to the skill of their opponent.

Be very glad that you have not had your 40-day warrior extinguished like a torch by an angry newbie half-giant, because it is a very real possibility.

That said, there has been some interesting discussion on this thread, and I agree with the spirit of Larrath's post.  Don't stop debating a subject just because we're telling you we disagree.  You may still find something in your discussion we hadn't though of.  Please do be wary of exposing too much IC information in your posts, however.

-- X

ps - Larrath is also right about the flames.  I realize it's easy to get heated about a subject like this, but please try to be respectful of other poster's opinions and thoughts, even if they disagree strongly with your own.  Flaming/trolling is not tolerated here.

I still think half-giants could use just a tiny tweak here and here and should simply have some abilities that ONLY come from being so damm massive.

BUT.

I also -know- I can take a HG warrior right out of the box and crush ANY warrior of any other race of under 15days play and do it without subdue.

Again, that aside. They need work to help reflect that sheer size better.

If nothing else, change whatever needs to be changed to make it hard or nearly impossible for something 1/2-1/3 the height of a half-giant to be able to strike its head and neck with such EXTREME ease and with so much force.


So, let me get this straight Joe, you lost your half-giant because a being 3 feet tall jumped 10 feet into the air and stabbed through a HG sized silt-horror helm (lets assume at least 3 inches thick) with a 7 inch dagger for 30 points of damage 5 times in a row?

What you were fighting Mighty mouse?

You know whats really silly to see is when some human or dwarf kicks a half-giant in the head.

Thats all I really want to see folks, Half-giants size really showing, and not just in the use of some existing skills either.

Size and strength come in handy with certain skills that boosts up Halfgiants.  And make them quite a killing machines, I agree to that.

That said, I still think Halfgiants need to be powered up.
Because I do not think their size and strength should be limited to a few collected skills.  The combat as a whole should be in Halfgiant's favor.  Anyone even thinking of killing a halfgiant should be either very crazy or very very skilled, or should catch the halfgiant when sleeping.  Again, I am saying the auto combat should be in halfgiant's favor, not just a few selected skills.

I'd rather see half-giants max skills go down (lack of 'finesse'), but see the bonuses they receive from their race go up.

And really, seriously...the double hit to the head of a half-giant from a dwarf really is...ew.

Personally, I'd hate it if Half Giants were upgraded to being even more deadly simply because of size. Sure, they might have (I don't mean this offensively, just as the idea idea) retard rage, but as the Ginka tells me.

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/halfgiantsocial.html

QuoteAre All Half-Giants Stupid?
Yes. The wisest of half-giants is probably no more clever than a rather dim-witted human. But it is important to understand what is meant by stupidity. Many people attribute stupidity falsely - for example, to primitive peoples or to children. Stupidity doesn't really describe either of these cases; ignorance or naivety are perhaps better words. So a half-giant is not like a child or a primitive humanoid, but rather, simply a very stupid person, although this is a much more subtle concept.

You are telling me, a half-giant can come out of the door thinking like dim-witted human and be able to beat my Byn Warrior that has been killing things professionally for the past 3 ooc months or so? Sure, they might be able to get me if they attacked me with their rage, but if they weren't mad, then I would bet they would die 2 out of 3 times. I'd bet 10 'sids that if you used the proper mind games, most half-giants wouldn't even attack back, unless you got them to that rage state.

QuoteThis kind of forced attention leads to the next aspect of a half-giant's stupidity, which is "inflexibility." Both their limited attention resources and their dim wits make them very inflexible in their thinking tasks. From a problem solving point of view, a half-giant is likely to adopt one approach and stick with it to the bitter end. In practical situations, being forced to be flexible will cause a half-giant to become uneasy and frustrated, and to make the same sort of blunders he or she would make when panicked. This is a function of their inflexibility and their inability to properly shift attention.

Their inflexibility also begins to describe two other intellectual traits of half-giants: "perseverance" and "lack of subtlety."

They shouldn't be able to kill a 10-15 day warrior out of the gate, personally, unless they entered this rage state and the perseverance made the half-giant chase and keep attacking them until the 10-15 day warrior was dead tired.

QuotePerseverance is another characteristic which describes inflexibility in problem solving tasks, but in a different light. Just as someone with inflexibility will have difficulty adopting new problem solving approaches, someone who is persevering will continue to do the same thing over and over again - even when it is absurd. The examples of this are endless, and open to varied interpretation. It is not beyond the grounds of reason for a half-giant to keep purchasing ale while waiting in a tavern, simply because that's what they do in taverns. Or to continue demanding a lower price while bargaining, even though it's absolutely ridiculous; or to continue beating a dead kank.

With this, half-giants probably do atleast one thing in a fight the same way over and over, but the code doesn't care.

QuoteAre Half-Giants Easily Tricked?
They are very easily tricked. They cannot think flexibly or with subtlety, they cannot grasp abstract concepts, and they are highly suggestible and trusting. All together, these things make half-giants very easy to manipulate. A half-giant does not attach any value to an item other than that which it seems to have at the moment, and the same goes for a friend.

If I pretend I am going left, then most half giants will probably fall for it, but the code doesn't account for that. Which makes half-giants half-giants just because of the way we RP them.

If they are going to upgraded just because of size, then they should be degraded.. wait for it.. just because of mentality, ignorance, perseverance.

Again, you neglect the sheer size and power of this being.

I find it amazing this is so hard to explain cept MOST people IRL simply have no clue of what kind of speed and power is in 2,000 pounds of bone and muscle. But, if you look around on the net you can find movies REAL films of a 1 ton bear in action, And that is NOTHING like seeing it in real life.

IRL I'll put the best swordsman in the world against a kodiak and bet everything on the bear, because that swordsman is going to become parts and it will happen in about 5 seconds or less.

And thats just a bear, not even as smart as a half-giant, No armor, only natural weapons etc.

Do a bit of research on the large animals of the world in real action, uncensered, you might get just the tiniest inkling of what we are talking about.

And who cares if your going left?
Thats another thing that annoys me, You have to be so far inside that HG's reach to even think about hitting him that there would simply be no hope of dodging, All that the HG has to do is sweep his weapon back and forth 3 feet from the ground.

Thats a good 8-10 foot reach, call it a 3 foot arc on the inside and 15-30 on the outside and moving with all the speed 2k pounds of muscle can muster. Go left indeed.

Again. Check out the swats of a full grown grizzly or silverback or bengal tigar or polar bear...Heh.

Except Bears are faster than most humans, if not all. Bears are a lot smarter than most Dimwitted humans IRL. It even says in OUR docs that HGs are slow.

(http://www.vbfun.com/pressroom/images/smTmb/tmb_dadChasingSon.jpg)

Now imagine that baby being armed and faster than the dim-witted adult and you can see how hard it should be to subdue the little bastard that is, again, faster than you. Few experienced warriors would flee in a straight line when a Hg is chasing them, if they have had experiences with Hgs.

If that baby was caught, it should be damn near impossible to escape short of mind games.

Quote from: "Maybe42or54"Except Bears are faster than most humans, if not all. Bears are a lot smarter than most Dimwitted humans IRL. It even says in OUR docs that HGs are slow.

I'd like to argue with you, but you seem to be doing well enough on your own.

And bears are faster then humans...now, read slowly..because they pack around TWO THOUSAND POUNDS of MUSCLE!!!.

And smarter then most dim witted humans..Huh? Lets see, IQ of 60 is what, moron? And yet they can speak and understand a language, even learn to read. Work, put things together take them apart, etc etc.

Alright, find me a bear that can do the same.

I thought not.

And that adult does not want to hurt the baby, come now, thats...well, for lack of better wording, a silly example. If injury was not a factor, the big slow dimwitted adult simply does a flying takle squashing the baby flat, armed or not.

Find me a dimwitted, or a business, human that can survive in the wild for 20 years. Bears have evolved over a million+ years to be the best at what they do. Half-giants have been fabricated to do what their creater wants. They havn't done very much, if any evolving. Bears, IMO, are a silly example.

No doubt that Hgs could in fact "squish" a human by jumping on them if the half giant was subtle enough to approach, without scaring, the human, before jumping and bellyflopping on the victim. That is just silly, IMO.

If you want to give them bigger advantages, they should have bigger disadvantages.

Regarding tall people getting hit in the head by short people, the only explanation I've been able to swallow is that the tall person was bending at the time.  Halflings that bounce up and down like Tigger, or run up trees and do back-flips off them seem silly.  A halfling climbing a halfgiant and hanging off his back while hitting him in the head seems slightly less silly, but there is nothing in the combat code to indicate that it is happening or even possible.  If a tall person is trying to hit or grab a small person they will bend down from time to time, not all the way to the ground of course, but perhaps enough to bring their head into poking range.  A half-giant will probably have to bend slightly just to see the halfling.

Kicks to the head . . . that is just silly.  Halfling sized creatures should not be able to kick standing human sized creatures in the head.  Human sized creatures should not be able to kick standing half-giants in the head.  (But size isn't the only factor, body shape matters too.  A mekillot is huge, but it's chin may be quite close to the ground, so kicking a mekillot in the chin might be possible.)



Angela Christine

Just because something is big doesn't mean it will be fast. For crying out loud, a camel spider can run up to 10MPH. That's a decent pace for a human, much less something smaller than a human's foot.

Furthermore, a half giant's size can also be its weakness. Sure, they have an enormous reach, but a smart fighter is going to get close enough to them where it becomes a hindrance and stick close to them.

It's a half-giant. As has been said, many of them are not very smart. That means that half-giants are going to have a hell of a time learning how to properly defend themselves.

This thread is veering off into god knows where, debating about how smart Yogi the Bear is and god knows what else with six pages of "discussion" for the sake of "discussion".

Quote from: "Maybe42or54"If you want to give them bigger advantages, they should have bigger disadvantages.

No.  The rest of your arguements are ridiculous, so I'll assume that this is your true concern.

Their advantages and disadvantages should not be equal, they should be tailored realistically according to what they are, and then given an equivalent karma level based equally on their power, their potential for abuse, and their difficulty to role-play.  The prerequisite knowledge of the gameworld required to play them should also be taken into consideration.

This is the system as it stands.  If you don't like it, suggest a change, but even so this isn't the thread to suggest such a change.

Quote from: "EvilRoeSlade"
Their advantages and disadvantages should not be equal, they should be tailored realistically according to what they are, and then given an equivalent karma level based equally on their power, their potential for abuse, and their difficulty to role-play.  The prerequisite knowledge of the gameworld required to play them should also be taken into consideration.

Exactly,  wasn't suggesting otherwise. If they get more advantages, it only makes sense that some of their disadvantages come into effect.

Quote
This is the system as it stands.  If you don't like it, suggest a change, but even so this isn't the thread to suggest such a change.

You are joking right? *shrug* I am countering the They should just have more advantages! I want the More disadvantages!

And I would love to know how pointing out that Bears have evolved into the machines they are, where as Half-giants were made that way, is a ridiculous statement.

QuoteSure, they have an enormous reach, but a smart fighter is going to get close enough to them where it becomes a hindrance and stick close to them.

In my opinion, that works out grand until there's a giant knee under your jaw or a -very- powerful, -very- violent shove.

Size really doesn't dictate speed that much.  One of my big peeves with movies is that they make big monsters lumbering and slow.  A giant snake with the exact same body build as the the normal size will be just as fast, as well.

I don't think half-giants are going to be swinging a club so incredibly slow that they're easy to dodge (and my other big deal...how the crap does someone parry that?!).  On the contrary, the larger weapon might make it harder, since you have to get further out of the way.

What I -do- think might happen is huge man might get a weapon that is too huge...recovery times might suffer.   But that's already factored in by the slow attack speeds from low agility.


I guess, I think...my biggest problem is that I think even a skilled warrior should take any half-giant seriously.  And I don't want it to be over the whole subdue/hit/knockout deal.  I'd like to see that be less of a necessity for a 'young' half-giant.  Blows from a being that large would be -incredibly- hard to parry well...evasion is by far the more effective defense against such things, if you're fast enough to get out of the way.  Once you -do- get hit, yes...it -hurts-.  But the sheer power of that hit is not usually reflected.  Getting full on hit by a huge two handed warhammer in the hands of that big of a being...realistically...would likely kill most.

But we don't want that, because that's just blatant destruction and kind of takes the fun out of the encounter.  But some sort of knockdown or something would be excellent.

Basically...I -really- want to see half-giants put into the classic scene that comparatively sized beings from other fantasy worlds are put in.  Ogres, trolls, giants, whatever.

I want to actually see circles of three and four guys around them, avoiding huge swings that could take their head off until they can slowly whittle it down and overwhelm.  The guy who takes them down by himself is crazy courageous, and either extremely lucky or extremely experienced in taking them down.  It's not a common deal.

As is...this is only reflected by the subdue/hit/knockout.  And I -hate- that.  And so does everyone who dies to it.

Quote from: "Armaddict"As is...this is only reflected by the subdue/hit/knockout.  And I -hate- that.  And so does everyone who dies to it.

For the record, I hate it too.  But that won't stop me from abusing it like an asshole until half-giants get a few improvements that I feel are necessary.

QuoteArmaddict wrote:
As is...this is only reflected by the subdue/hit/knockout. And I -hate- that. And so does everyone who dies to it.

For the record, I hate it too. But that won't stop me from abusing it like an asshole until half-giants get a few improvements that I feel are necessary.

Well...I'd do it too, but the point is...it sucks using it and I know it sucks having it used on you.  Thus why I'd rather see some changes made, so that not everyone had to feel so cheated.

Quote from: "Armaddict"

QuoteArmaddict wrote:
As is...this is only reflected by the subdue/hit/knockout. And I -hate- that. And so does everyone who dies to it.

For the record, I hate it too. But that won't stop me from abusing it like an asshole until half-giants get a few improvements that I feel are necessary.

Well...I'd do it too, but the point is...it sucks using it and I know it sucks having it used on you.  Thus why I'd rather see some changes made, so that not everyone had to feel so cheated.

Me too. I completely agree. Unfortunately it is the only thing you can do with them that displays the sheer might they should have over other humanoids and even then, it isn't fully realistic. Many things that shouldn't have a prayer in breaking free can and do consistently.
And as for half-giants being slow...yes they're supposed to be slower than other humanoids. They're -not- encased in their own sphere of gelatin that hinders their every move. Currently, the code represents them as not just slower but similar to being forced to attempt to move through sludge that only affects them. They are unrealistically -too- slow.

Quote from: "Maybe42pr54"Bears are a lot smarter than most Dimwitted humans IRL.

Quote from: "Maybe42or54"Find me a dimwitted, or a business, human that can survive in the wild for 20 years

Irrelevant.  The same goes the other way if we are to compare the IQ.  Find a bear who can survive in a metropolis without a cage for 20 years?  It will just be shot and put in a cage or killed.

The environment they live in will reflect the behaviour of the beast.  Sure a bear has superior survival instincts than an average human.  But when it comes to comparing a zalanthan halfgiant and a bear, I would think they will be similar in that.  A cornered halfgiant, and a cornered bear should -not- be engaged in melee.

Quote from: "jhunter"Currently, the code represents them as not just slower but similar to being forced to attempt to move through sludge that only affects them. They are unrealistically -too- slow.

I agree to that.  They are slow, when it is compared to the body proportion.  But they should not be slow when compared to a human.  A swing of a halfgiant should sweep more than 10 feet arc in much less than a second.  And I would not think a human could dodge that if he is within the reach of the halfgiant.  That means, if the human hit the halfgiant that round, or attemted to hit him, he should get hit too.

I always thought that range and size would make up for the lack of accuracy.   :? But meh, you'd know how scary a half-giant would be if he could swing a giant club fast as a human? He/she would maul any warrior in mere seconds.  :shock: I've seen big people in action, and they ain't so slow. Ex: An overweight cop is full of surprises! O.o If it's a matter of balancing the game, then it's reasonable that the half-giant's attack speed is slow/depowered.

It's frustrating when you don't play to a HG's excessive strengths either. Try to do something different and kick an elf. Land that massive foot right into it's chest, and you know what kind of damage you do? Not much.

I think the bomb would be:

An elf is here, fighting you!
An elf is here, fighting you!

kick elf

Your kick plows into the elf's chest, sending him flying north!

look

and elf is here, looking quite uncertain as he fights you.

I digress,

HG's are absolutely destructive right now. They can slay things dead. Unless it can parry. Heaven forbid that little elf has a parrying dagger, because then an impenetrable wall of dagger stops your massive two handed war axe.

Then there's the disarm. I've seen a few npc's out there disarm three weapons off a HG as fast as he could wield them. I realize they are stupid, but....

A few other issues like stabs to the head from a bloody short dwarf are annoying, and hard to rp.

Emote takes a swing at ~halfling, and at the last moment sinks to his knees, crouching as he presses his head to the ground defensively.

I dunno. After all my hg experience, I think they are a total blast as they sit right now. But, having alot of fun rp wise isn't always realistic, could they use some changes here and there, yeah.

Perhaps even a racial skill that all HG's get might be an idea. *shrugs*

Quote from: "Dakkon Black"
A few other issues like stabs to the head from a bloody short dwarf are annoying, and hard to rp.
*shrugs*

You got two heads, use them.

Indeed, the word head has multiple meanings, for those who have forgotten. Half-giants are easier to hit in the crotch. You die quick from that bloodloss.

Hehe, that idea reminds me of that one scenario where this girl cries, "Mommy, it's windy out here!" The mother would reply, "No honey, that's daddy with his leaf-blower." O.o Nothing sexual about that. Just a machine blowin' leaf...  I banish thy feeble dirty minds! Rawr!  :( Minds out of the gutter! I just have a feeling that example someone is gonna make it into something sexual. T.T

Anyways, the point is that I'm just contrasting the idea of crotch = head to windy day = daddy's leaf blower. It's as if someone poured mustard over your car and claiming that they've done a real nice paint job. O_o But using head for crotch is clever imagination! Aye! -claps-

Quote from: "jcarter"As has been said, many of them are not very smart. That means that half-giants are going to have a hell of a time learning how to properly defend themselves.

Actually, I really disagree with this particular statement. Anything will learn how to defend itself. Now half-giants do have the maturity of a 6-10 year old, but this does not nessessarily mean that they have the incapacity to learn that a 6-10 year old does. You'll find that those are two completely different things.

On the topic of the flaws of a half-giant, I do suggest several things.

I would like to see hits be metted out in the proper areas for races fighting half-giants. This means that, of PC races, only the very tallest elf or another half-giant should ever have a chance to hit a HG in the head or neck. A dwarf or a halfling should only be able to hit a HG on the foot, the ankle, the leg, and the waist.

I would like to see a small change to the abilities of foes fighting HGs and like-powered creatures. A foe's parry should almost always be coverted to an agility check to see if you can dodge the HG's attack. Those that are not should have a strength check to see if the weapon is knocked flying. Only two-handed weapons should be able to disarm a HG. A bash against a half-giant should nearly always fail, if it does not now.

If these changes are brought into play, then I do not think agility should be changed for the half-giant. I would, however, venture that a half-giant should get an extra 50 hit-points attached to the current determining factors, as a bonus.

The7DeadlyVenomz -Thumbs up (N/T)

To step up and repeat what Halaster and others on staff have said here:

Half giants are *fine* the way they are.  They are not underpowered and many of the statements now be accepted as fact in this thread are based on unusual observations or unusual circumstance.  They are not in need of tweaking.

While the combat system itself can always use a few tweaks and has gotten a lot in recent weeks, half-giants as a race are not at all weak or underpowered.

The half-giant's mental capabilities in a fight should also be taken into account, they may have a great advantage in the beginning, but they'll tend to do the same stunts over and any seasoned warrior would be able to defend themselves the first part of the fight, then really start to kill them easily as the fight progresses, simply because they will most likely notice that the Hg repeats.

QuoteHalf giants are *fine* the way they are. They are not underpowered and many of the statements now be accepted as fact in this thread are based on unusual observations or unusual circumstance. They are not in need of tweaking.

Uhm...unusual circumstance?

I want you to go find something that weighs a ton, hold a dagger, and -parry- it.

These are, generally, not unusual circumstances.  These are things that come into play nearly every time a half-giant fights.  As was mentioned...we can use the subdue/hit/knockout, if that's what the staff really wants.  But plenty of ways to make the encounter more real, more realistic, and less of a letdown have been presented.

Yes, half-giants are scary.  But all things considered, -not- that scary.

I'll just point to an experience of mine, where a 5 day desert-elf ranger, without running, or any sort 'wily' tactic, and with only average stats, killed a half-giant that must have had 15 or 20 days playing time.  Which points to the real problem.

HALF-GIANTS are not scary.  HALF-GIANT WARRIORS can be a lot scarier than other warriors.  Except for one enormous deciding factor, which is their ability to have skills.  The HALF-GIANT by himself, is no big deal so long as you aren't subdued.

HALF-GIANTS should not be dependent on their ability to be trained (which is pretty hard, actually) in order to -become- scary.  Yes, they receive racial bonuses.  Yes, they're very strong.  But they are not, by themself, any big deal whatsoever unless they live long enough to kill enough stuff, or unless they're lucky enough to actually be able to spar with another giant.  No one 'teaches' them.

HALF-GIANT WARRIORS are just as dependent on skills as anyone else.  As I stated before...I'd rather see them scary from the beginning, and be unable to get as far along in their combat skills as other races (to reflect on the mentality issue people have been saying balances things out the way it is...which it doesn't, by the way).  Start scary.  Get scarier.  Not scary to someone who knows how to dispose of them, someone with vast experience in combat.

Lol, good post Armaddict.

I'd just like to add that most of the things mentioned are -not- unusual circumstances at all. They're very common and that's why more than one person has brought them up. A newbie half-giant should be able to flat out -destroy- any other humanoid (without having to resort to subdue/kill). The only ones that should be attempting to take point against a half-giant foe should either be another half-giant, or a very well-trained warrior. As it is...all you have to do is be fast to take them down in melee...they'll almost never hit you and you'll blow right through their defenses doing 10 times the damage they might be able to throughout the fight.
There is definitely something wrong when they're far scarier rp-wise than they are codewise.

You want half-giants to be muls.

There's a reason one is three karma and one is seven karma.

Half-giants should be more dangerous than muls.  They are much, much stronger, and much, much larger.  A half-giant could snatch a mul up and launch him over a small building with one hand.  Yeah, muls are vicious killers when compared to standard humanoids, but against a half-giant of equal experience, they really shouldn't stand a chance.

Half-giants are balanced when you look at the whole picture.  They aren't the most agile, and aren't born combat beasts like muls.  When their strength is brought to bear, they are the most devestating creature that a PC can play.  However, a Half Giant can't always bring that stength to bear, and that is reflected in how the half giants are currently set up.

Muls have full concept of tactics from day one.  They're intelligent, methodical, and rage filled.  

Half giants do not have this advantage, despite how most people play them.  On my former 40 day half giant I had an absolute riot learning tactics from my commanders, who were extremely patient with explaining the exact same thing week after week until I determined that it would have become more of  a reflex action for the character.

QuoteYou want half-giants to be muls.

No, I don't.  Muls are the best blend of all worlds for a combat based character.  They are decently quick, very strong, and intelligent.  They learn the intricacies of combat.  They are sophisticated when it comes to their ability in combat, and have 'the rage' that makes them an uncontrollable, violent force to be reckoned with.

A half-giant with the ability to learn those intricacies is, indeed, superior to just about anyone.

To use an analogy everyone is familiar with, from the Lord of the Rings:

Half-giant = Cave Troll.  Big, massive, strong, and durable.  They go in, they swing this huge weapon around, and anyone who is careless or in a bad circumstance will be smashed.  Through teamwork, preparation, or superior tactics, they're easily brought down.

Mul = Uruk-hai or however it's spelled.  They are smarter, and a good mixture of all the dominant traits of a warrior.  While not conveyed well in the movie, due to the 'nature of evil' in it (horde mentality), they are capable of superior training, knowledge, and sophistication in combat.  If Aragorn had been a Uruk-hai, he'd have lost the love of his elf woman and Eowen (his charisma, basically), and gained the most fearsome combat abilities ever to be seen.

QuoteHalf-giants are balanced when you look at the whole picture. They aren't the most agile, and aren't born combat beasts like muls. When their strength is brought to bear, they are the most devestating creature that a PC can play. However, a Half Giant can't always bring that stength to bear, and that is reflected in how the half giants are currently set up.

They aren't the most agile...but they don't need to be.  I don't see them hopping around nimbly bimbly, that's not what I want.  But they aren't as easy to take down in melee as is currently reflected in game.  They don't -have- to dodge that often, realistically.  One hit is a crippling blow or a killing one...a glancing blow hurts like hell.  If they had to dodge often, they would be doing something terribly wrong letting that guy in.  Hence, why -group combat- should be more desireable when going after giants.

Not born combat beasts, I'm in agreeance.  Only special half-giants are 'trained' from youth, unless I'm mistaken (and I could be).  However, the point is that the half-giant with the minimal training that everyone else has should be -much- more fearsome than they are now.  As I've been pushing for...they start scary.  Get scarier.  Then level out...they can't learn as much about the stuff that's harder to remember and based more on reaction time.

When their strength is brought to bear...that's an interesting phrase, because their strength is -always- there.  It shouldn't be so dependent on their skill level...their skill level makes them more deadly, but they're deadly to just about anyone in the first place.  A giant with exceptional strength, fighting one on one, face to face, with a dwarf or human should nearly always win unless that dwarf or human has some pretty damn good experience in combat.  I don't like how a mediocre warrior against a 'new' half-giant still has a very noticeable edge.  It takes lucky hits for the half-giant to win out...he has to beat the parry roll, which with less attacks, is less often than one would think.

What you mean, then, by not always being able to bring that strength to bear...I'm not completely sure.  All I get out of it is that they need the skills to be able to hit and parry away incoming attacks.

And that's where my whole opinion comes in.  I don't think half-giant warriors should be as dependent on skills as other warriors.  While they receive bonuses from the get-go, they also suffer certain penalties that make them relatively easy pickings in the beginning.  In the beginning, they win off of circumstance.  If they're lucky enough to get good circumstances long enough...the skills kick in, and -then- they become the powerhouse.

The way I wanted to see it...

Early half-giant relative to other 'earlies' - Freaking powerhouse

Middle half-giant relative to other 'middles' - Powerhouse still as their skills kick in in all out combat, but more vulnerable than most to multiple attackers and they lose the ability to just stomp on single attackers.  Earlies are stomped on and squished quickly.  Against 'middles', the other middle might come out on top with preparation or finesse, but odds are still heavy on the giant.

End half-giant relative to other 'ends' - The half-giant 'maxxed out' his combat abilities long before the other 'ends'...he's still a challenge due to the combination of their skills in effectiveness plus physical prowess, but the masters of combat are generally capable of surviving well.  Odds are about even....at this point, it would be like the situation seen a lot now.  The half-giant would have trouble holding defenses consistently, and would have trouble breaching defenses consistently...but there are the random 'luck shots' that are devastating.

That's kind of how I see it.  Keep in mind...I haven't played a half-giant for awhile.  But I do see half-giants going down pretty consistently in situations where I see it as kind of laughable.

Morgenes, if I give you and the staff a point and agree that half-giants shouldn't see the side of any barn during their first 40 days, can I get a point concerning the following?

:arrow: A half-giant kick has a chance to do the flying east/west/north/south thing.
:arrow: You can't parry a half-giant's blows very often; instead, you'll default to dodging most of the time. If you do manange to parry a half-giant, you run the risk of having your weapon knocked away from you.
:arrow: You only have a chance to disarm a half-giant with a two-handed weapon.
:arrow: Half-giants are just a tad easier to hit with ranged weapons, due to their increased size and decreased agility.
:arrow: Blows against a half-giant are metted out as height is appropriate, ie; no halflings hitting one in the head.

I don't buy the parrying or disarm points, as both require elements of agility and skill, as much as of strength (if not more, especially skill).  I could see making them slightly easier to hit with ranged weapons because of their size, but I think their agility already includes this factor.

I think the kick "effect" might be mildly interesting as a rare occurence, though I also think that "kick" is a misnomer for a strike intended to do damage to your opponent.  I also think tossing your opponent into the next room would yield less damage than, say, smashing your big, fat half-giant foot down into their kneecap.  A martial attack like this shouldn't be geared toward the spectacular effect of kicking a field-goal with your opponent, but instead toward shattering their bones and organs -- this is more effectively done by using the ground as an opposing force.

As to the last suggestion of biasing hit-location against your opponent's size, I actually do like this one.  That said, I also think there -should- be at least some chance of a skilled opponent scoring head and neck strikes -- it shouldn't be entirely possible.  Some people have mentioned rock-trolls from the Lord of the Rings as samples of Half-giant size (I think they're probably 30%-40% larger than our half-giants, if you're going by the movie, but that's okay), and even in those battles, there were instances where rock-trolls were climbed/mounted, or assaulted from higher perches, enabling head/neck-shots.  Our combat system should allow that.  That said, I also think that height should yield at least some bias with respect to where your blows land, and I don't believe that it does now.

I could also see giving half-giants a somewhat thicker skin than they have currently (it's not nothing, but it may not be enough), but that's a tweak which you will never know about, if it does happen (the same can probably be said for the half-giant head-strike thing).

Higher agility?  No.

More devastating power for newbie H-Gs?  Pretty much, no.  I don't think this is a good idea.  I also think it's odd that some of the suggestions in this area seem to want H-Gs to somehow be MORE powerful early and less powerful later (with respect to equivalently experienced opponents?).

Changing the karma requirement for H-Gs and making them beefier?  No, I like where they sit now, and I think they suit the game world well both in terms of coded ability and social position (including fear), something I think we'd lose by making any changes larger than small tweaks to this race.  I also think they fit well in the "ladder" with respect to other class/race options, in terms of challenge and responsibility in roleplay.  This change strikes me as especially unlikely.

Those are my thoughts on the suggestions I've seen thusfar.

-- X

Just to remark on the fear part of this discussion, this isn't a problem so much with the current strength/devestation of a HG, as it is a problem in general. As much as we all want to be the best roleplayers we can be, players do have difficulties conveying/living with fear in a game. We're all pretty damn smart as people, and can figure out how to avoid things, as well as how things work. We have a tendency, even when we try not to, to give this advantage to our characters.

It's not just HG's, but magickers, or npcs in the wild (Can I tell you how many times I've seen people stand off a few rooms and shoot at very deadly creatures, trusting that they wont come after them.) and so many other things. If a HG whacks a couple of your characters are you going to fear them more as a player? Or shouldn't you be fearing them all along as a character.

I'd like to see combat just working a little differently when a half-giant is involved.  This is a wishlist I haven't taken very long to consider but I'm adding it anyway, but I'm aware some of the suggestions could be bad or unbalancing.

* First, I agree about half-giants being disarmed.  No matter how quick you are, prying a weapon out of a huge hand that could crush a skull is damned hard.  I'd like to see disarming half-giants get either a very large penalty or be simply impossible when not done by a mul, a dwarf or another half-giant.
* I'd like to see Subdue changed for giants, so instead of the twinky subdue-hit combo they can use a Crush command to strangle and break the target's body.  It would help because it could be more balanced and fair, and nobody would feel so bad about doing it.
* I don't know if this already happens, but a Kick from a half-giant should deal a lot of damage and a Bash from a half-giant should deal a load of Stun.  A bash from a half-giant is probably comparable to being kicked by a strong horse.
* I'd like to see hits from half-giants cause knockdowns, especially if shield-blocked or parried against.  Parrying against half-giants should be rarer; parry means using your weapon to stop the momentum of the half-giant's strike (virtually impossible) or using your weapon to alter the course of the attack, which basically means you'll have to slam your weapon as hard as you can to move that club out of the way.
* I also think it would be cool if a half-giant could grab people and throw them at each other.
* Half-giants would be unable to use small weapons such as daggers and knives.
* A half-giant could also be knocked down somehow, which would severely limit its ability to fight until they can stand up again.  I'm not talking about bash - an extremely badass warrior (or a group of fighters) could make a half-giant fall, at which point they can just hack it to death.
* I want to see half-giants falling or lying on people and killing them.
* Let half-giants Subdue people and then throw them to an Up room where they can fall down to take damage.  Great fun!
* One-handed subdue?

These are all very undeveloped ideas, but feel free to discuss any.

QuoteI'll just point to an experience of mine, where a 5 day desert-elf ranger, without running, or any sort 'wily' tactic, and with only average stats, killed a half-giant that must have had 15 or 20 days playing time. Which points to the real problem.

Yeah. Nerf desert elves.

The way I see it, Half-giants are a magick-induced combo of Giants and Humans. They aren't like Muls, they didn't get the best combo available to them in the Giant/human genes. They -havn't- evolved very much, if at all. The saying that "they are damn strong," doesn't mean they are damn fast. Just watch those Professional Weightlifters run three miles. It would take them a whole lot longer than it would take myself. A more intelligent, faster, trained Warrior should be able to fuck up something stronger, slower, and less trained than them.

The docs go indepth to tell me that they shouldn't be killing machines out of the door. They are just as smart/dumb as any other Pc, the only thing that makes them ignorant IG is.. let me find it...

QuoteWisdom  (Character)  


This attribute is the mental capacity of a character, being made up of both his/her knowledge, intelligence, and ability to learn. On Zalanthas, those who have high wisdom often learn from their mistakes quicker, magickers regenerate faster, and languages are picked up more easily.

Wisdom doesn't take into account a lot of what makes a HG ignorant and a real HG. Such as inflexibility.

I see this in the docs: http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/halfgiantsocial.html

QuoteThe first factor could be described as "attention resources." Because of their dim wits, half-giants will have to focus very hard on one thing to get it right. When panicked or rushed, this kind of concentration breaks down, and half-giants will tend to make all sorts of blunders.

But in most situations, this kind of single-minded attention will be very obvious. It is easy to picture a half-giant peering at the ground, their brow furrowed as they speaks very slowly, picking out each word carefully to get their thoughts across. Of course, this is a stereotypical example, but it depicts the general idea. The same kind of thing will occur for all variety of tasks - whether hunting or fighting, bargaining or talking, maybe even while drinking a cup of mead.

QuoteThis kind of forced attention leads to the next aspect of a half-giant's stupidity, which is "inflexibility." Both their limited attention resources and their dim wits make them very inflexible in their thinking tasks. From a problem solving point of view, a half-giant is likely to adopt one approach and stick with it to the bitter end. In practical situations, being forced to be flexible will cause a half-giant to become uneasy and frustrated, and to make the same sort of blunders he or she would make when panicked. This is a function of their inflexibility and their inability to properly shift attention.

Their inflexibility also begins to describe two other intellectual traits of half-giants: "perseverance" and "lack of subtlety."

Well, Maybe, that's interesting stuff you've posted. I*'d never realized they were so ... so slow.

I still suggest that strength for a half-giant do more than it does now. Even if they are to be chopped down easily and so forth, that time you get hit should really count for a lot, and maybe have some cool effects, like sending you flying, and things like that.

I agree to the power. They should be able to do some real damage, but if they have spent twenty years sparring with the same human/mul/dwarf who uses a weapon and a shield, they should really be thrown off and be less powerful when they face that grease lightning little skinny fucker that uses just a shield, or two weapons.

*cough*Fighting styles*cough*

Editted to add.

And I would agree that they were fast, but I ran the numbers a HG has and set it to body proportions, and they aren't very lanky.

Height:   
304.8 cm   120.00 in

Weight target:   
681.0 kg   1500.0 pd

Neck:   
126.0 cm   49.50 in
Biceps:   
118.3 cm   46.50 in
Forearm:   
98.3 cm   38.75 in
Chest:   
328.3 cm   129.25 in
Waist:   
246.4 cm   97.00 in
Hip:   
295.8 cm   116.50 in
Thigh:   
177.5 cm   70.00 in
Calf:   
118.3 cm   46.50 in

Quote from: "Hymwen"
I don't ever see that happening. In a game with perma-death, noone wants non-magickers who can "kill two or three seasoned vets with a swipe of his arm". Yeah, from a purely realism point of view perhaps it could be that way, but you can't have a race that makes the character twenty times more powerful than other races of the same guild. From a balance point of view, we just can't have people walking around in the streets who are capable of killing half the city on their own.

That is the point of the karma system, tell me a seasoned sorc can't lay waste to a good twenty people with relative ease if he plays smart?

Quotetell me a seasoned sorc can't lay waste to a good twenty people with relative ease if he plays smart?

The seasoned sorc (which requires 8 karma rather than 3 for HGs) is not free to walk around the streets of any city, is not massively powerful straight from char creation, and is extremely rare compared to half-giants.

Quote from: "Hymwen"

Quotetell me a seasoned sorc can't lay waste to a good twenty people with relative ease if he plays smart?

The seasoned sorc (which requires 8 karma rather than 3 for HGs) is not free to walk around the streets of any city, is not massively powerful straight from char creation, and is extremely rare compared to half-giants.

I would venture to say that there are less half-giant pcs on average than magicker pcs by far. Maybe even equal to the number of sorc pcs alone.

Quote from: "Naiona"Half giants are *fine* the way they are.  They are not underpowered and many of the statements now be accepted as fact in this thread are based on unusual observations or unusual circumstance.  They are not in need of tweaking.

While the combat system itself can always use a few tweaks and has gotten a lot in recent weeks, half-giants as a race are not at all weak or underpowered.

Naiona actually brings up a good point.  The real problem with the code isn't with half-giants in particular, but lies in the fact that all creatures are treated pretty much the same by the combat code, regardless of size.

I think that the larger creature is, the more combat options related to its size it should have, the more difficult it should be to damage (especially in the head and neck locations), and the more opponents it should require to take it down.

Personally, I have always failed to understand why half-giants were ever allowed their freedom, while muls remain forever slaves. While muls may make better combatants overall, a half-giant is the ultimate labor machine.

On topic, I absolutely agree with the hit locations statement. This alone would decrease the ease of taking a half-giant down.

Half-giants can breed naturally.  That alone makes them it harder to keep them 'all' under your thumb.

So can dwarves, and yet for a good while, rare was the dwarf seen out of captivity.

Still, you earn a point.

Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"Personally, I have always failed to understand why half-giants were ever allowed their freedom, while muls remain forever slaves. While muls may make better combatants overall, a half-giant is the ultimate labor machine.

Muls are smarter than half-giants, faster and smaller.  A mul is much more capable of living by itself.  Muls also don't seem to occur naturally while half-giants reproduce normally.  A half-giant, being large, is also easier to take down with a large group or ranged weapons.
Half-giants are little more than oversized gorillas without the temper issues.
A half-giant will always be a grunt, whereas escaped muls tend to be natural born leaders.

And about labor, half-giants aren't perfect for this task at all.  A half-giant is exactly the sort of a worker to build a house that would collapse at the first earthquake.  Half-giants are terrible problem solvers, become unpredictable under pressure, are stupid and generally try to copy what people are doing around them whether it's wise or not.  Half-giants are good for carrying rocks, but there are also kanks and inixes and magickers that can do that.

Back to the discussion, perhaps the damage location change could be enough to make the half-giants a little better.  They'd be natural dwarf-stompers, which is great.  I think we'd also need weapon reach for this, though - a dwarf with a dagger and a dwarf with a greatspear are two different things.

Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"Personally, I have always failed to understand why half-giants were ever allowed their freedom, while muls remain forever slaves. While muls may make better combatants overall, a half-giant is the ultimate labor machine.

Interestingly enough, muls aren't even generally used for something particularly valuable.  The majority of muls are gladiators, and are simply used for entertainment purposes.  So enslavement doesn't appear to correlate to a creature's value to society.

Furthermore, the slave status on half-giants would likely have quite a bit to do with the circumstances under their original creation.  If the sorceror who brought them into being didn't intend for them to be slaves, then enslaving the entire population at a later date would be more difficult, whereas in the case of muls, it is easy to understand why they are all slaves since it is impossible for a mul to occur naturally.

Well, yeah, but I was really speaking more as a playability issue, rather than as a realistic perspective. Realistically, I completely understand why this has not happened. I really think half-giants are flipping hard to play, but that's prolly just my mindset. I can't play stupid.

Muls need anger management!  :( I've always thought that anger issues would sometimes/often lead to improper decision makings if you're a leader. O__o I wonder if a sorceror can enhance a half-giant's intelligence. Just once... I'd like to see a highly intelligent half-giant kick ass.

QuoteThat's what muls are for.

Why does people keep saying this as if anyone is free to make a mul character and just do whatever they want, playing the PC like it's a human?

QuoteWhy does people keep saying this as if anyone is free to make a mul character and just do whatever they want, playing the PC like it's a human?

Indeed! O__o I recall reading that they were emotionally unstable... no no... that's an understatement; they're highly emotionally unstable. So unstable that they need to be under constant supervision.  :shock:

Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"Well, yeah, but I was really speaking more as a playability issue, rather than as a realistic perspective. Realistically, I completely understand why this has not happened. I really think half-giants are flipping hard to play, but that's prolly just my mindset. I can't play stupid.

You should learn to play dumb, I hear it can be helpful for dealing with wives.   :D  


Chances are we all know someone noticably slow.  Smart enough that they can dress themselves, feed themselves, and even live alone, but still obviously stupid.  People like that can be a template, a rolemodel for a halfgiant or other generally stupid character.  Halfgiants aren't exactly like stupid people, and besides all stupid people are not the same, but it is a place to start.  People with downs syndrome have great spin doctors and have managed to get the reputation for being nice, but they aren't _all_ nice and they certainly aren't all nice all the time.  Halfgiants have the reputation of being kind and curious, but that isn't all that they are, and they probably aren't kind and curious all the time.  A halfgiant is a whole person.  They should have moods and facets like everyone else.





I think dwarves make better labour slaves than halfgiants.  Sure, a half-giant is stronger than a dwarf, but is he stronger than 4-10 dwarves?  Halfgiants aren't nearly as good in tight spaces as a dwarf.  Halfgiants aren't as good at delicate or detailed work as dwarves.  However, halfgiants are excellent for getting things from the high shelf.  Halfgiants could be good for construction, where their height would be a specific advantage, but for most things purpose-raised dwarves would be better.  

Halfgiant vs. kank is a draw.  They both eat quite a bit.  Kanks probably have a more flexible diet than humanoids.  I have no evidence for that, except that kanks are very common in the south where there isn't much good food to spare.  Kanks are better at just standing around, waiting to be loaded and unload, they don't get bored or distracted.  Halfgiants are more flexible than kanks, you can just tell a halfgiant to take this log over there and then come back and he will probably do it.

Quote from: "The GivingTree"I wonder if a sorceror can enhance a half-giant's intelligence. Just once... I'd like to see a highly intelligent half-giant kick ass.

OMG OMG OMG! You gave me a _really_ good focus for a dwarf elementalist.. Damn.. This would be _so_ good to play.

Half-dwarven giants! We've never seen those before.   :shock: Short, squatty people with shoulders wider then their height!