This is something else that was considered when the stamina penalties to combat skills were added. We considered putting a "cooldown" on skills like kick, bash, disarm, etc. The IC reason for this would be that it is ineffective to use the same tricks repeatedly. This would not mean just increasing the delay, but rather meaning that you couldn't use the skill again for a little while though you could still do other things. We still are considering adding this in addition to the stamina loss, or instead of it, or along with a change in how much stamina is lost.
Speaking of the controversial changes to the above combat skills, feel free to email in your thoughts if you haven't. I'm really interested in thoughts from people playing warriors who have given it a chance and seen how they need to adjust their play, but all input is welcome. As you know, balance changes are always controversial in games like this. We are willing to listen to player feedback as we keep tweaking things until its done in the way that is best for the game.
QuoteAs you know, balance changes are always controversial in games like this.
I refuse to call them balance issues. I call them logic issues.
Quote from: "Armaddict"QuoteAs you know, balance changes are always controversial in games like this.
I refuse to call them balance issues. I call them logic issues.
It may not be the traditional balance between classes, but we are trying to achieve a balance here. We want skills to be equally useful to people who want to misuse the code and people who play the way we expect. The benefit of adding some additional strategy to combat is also a factor, though admittedly that has less to do with balance.
[Edited by Raesanos: Please don't simply repost a post you already made in a different thread. If your intent was to make sure I read it, don't worry, I'm reading all the threads on this subject.]
EDIT - Yup, just thought maybe I stated my opinion in the wrong place. You are on top of things Rae.
I suppose I don't have a staff view of this. But as far as I know, with the old system, a prepared mage could whip a warriors ass six ways from sunday.
Now, they can whoop warriors seven ways from sunday.
Are warriors really too powerful right now? Is it a bad thing that a warrior can become a can of whoop ass? Will the 'balancing' continue till we are all joe blow commoners who use stamina to pick up mugs of ale?
We do not think that warriors are too powerful and we are not making changes solely to weaken them. My intent when I was choosing the stamina penalty was to try to make it so that for the most part things aren't even that different. People who recklessly overuse their skills will be the only ones at a real disadvantage.
Stamina loss code is a good addition. I think it will give the player a reason to keep track of how he uses his skills, as well as a difference between a master at melee and an initiate.
Provided the delay is not so long and that a warrior gets more than one chance to use his skills in kick/bash/disarm, I think this might also be a positive addition. The only possible problem is that, if the delay is too long, warriors will be just a little better than assassin/rangers in melee.
I think this "cooldown" is a much better idea than the current delays that prevent you from entering "any" other non-emote commands. This is like something I mentioned in the other thread.
You kick...there's a delay for a bit before you can kick again...but you can still flee, bash, disarm, or something different for example. The same for any of those combat skills.
Quote from: "jhunter"I think this "cooldown" is a much better idea than the current delays that prevent you from entering "any" other non-emote commands. This is like something I mentioned in the other thread.
You kick...there's a delay for a bit before you can kick again...but you can still flee, bash, disarm, or something different for example. The same for any of those combat skills.
It shouldn't replace the current lag entirely though. You shouldn't be able to fail at a disarm and then IMMEDIATELY flee. But a couple of seconds (certainly smaller then it currently is) plus the cool down period would be good.
Quote from: "John"Quote from: "jhunter"I think this "cooldown" is a much better idea than the current delays that prevent you from entering "any" other non-emote commands. This is like something I mentioned in the other thread.
You kick...there's a delay for a bit before you can kick again...but you can still flee, bash, disarm, or something different for example. The same for any of those combat skills.
It shouldn't replace the current lag entirely though. You shouldn't be able to fail at a disarm and then IMMEDIATELY flee. But a couple of seconds (certainly smaller then it currently is) plus the cool down period would be good.
I prefer this. I'm all for adding stamina loss but I think attaching stamina loss solely to special skills that are the domain of warriors makes little sense. No doubt someone will get tired during a fight, but will 3-4 attempts to kick, disarm or bash realistically tire them out? No it'd probably be the twenty rounds of normal melee. Granted I haven't seen the new code at all but a cooldown period would probably do more to prevent abuse and be more realistic.
I think it's sad anything like this is even being considered just to keep players in line. I have never had any kind of problem with disarm. One time there were three or four of us fighting this warrior that had been in the Byn for a long while and his main defense against us was disarm. Sure he kind of spammed it, but a warrior is supposed to be kick ass at one thing mainly and that's fighting and it was a hell of a battle and it was freaking fun. And the guy didn't even flee we all just battled it out. Reaching for our weapons, running about trying to beat this guy. I've never done this myself with my warriors or anyone with these skills in their subguild and I've never had a problem with seeing people doing it in sparring. I suppose there is the occasional person that over does it but that can always be reported just like if someone is power emoting or spamming, whatever.
Quote from: "Ghost"
Provided the delay is not so long and that a warrior gets more than one chance to use his skills in kick/bash/disarm, I think this might also be a positive addition. The only possible problem is that, if the delay is too long, warriors will be just a little better than assassin/rangers in melee.
Warriors are currently a LOT better than rangers, let alone assassins, even if they don't use their bash/kick/disarm.
Yeah, that's what I found really disturbing is that I've hardly seen anyone spamming them either. Maybe three people in all the time I've played.
Quote from: "Nao"
Warriors are currently a LOT better than rangers, let alone assassins, even if they don't use their bash/kick/disarm.
Well, Warriors are supposed to be the best in melee anyway. They have the highest cap in the melee skills, also they get the kick/disarm/bash. Now that they get a stamina penalty for using those skills, I would think making a big delay for using the same skill in a fight would be a significant penalty. So I think stamina loss is a good addition. I also can vote that this kind of delay is a good addition, provided the delay is not so big.
I agree this is a good addition. I do not see any real problem of that change of course now one can not spam this: "disarm;get all"
Also if I am not mistaken, I remember a discussion from almost two years before. Adding stamina decrease in melee, i.e. a tiny piece of stamina decrease in every say thirty seconds of melee combat. That would be realistic and fun.
Great idea about losing stamina. This would make even those stalemate combats you get between two skilled warriors exciting, it being possible to wear each other out.
*shakes head, then shakes head some more*
No.
*finishes shaking his head*
No
NO
No no no NO
These are the basics warriors are built upon. As you continue to institute these things you only make warriors -worse- off. Soon enough, we'll have 0 pbase playing warriors, and -everyone- that is combat oriented playings rangers. Is this the true aim of the staff? To have everyone shooting bows and running around navigating storms. I desperately -want- a place for warriors within armageddon. But with these changes I see my chances of ever wanting to play one again quickly diminishing. You want to flag something for a timer, how about backstab. That gets misused more than disarm, kick, or bash, and has more devistating consequences. Yet I don't see the spam flee backstabbing assassin getting -touched- Nope just warriors. Argue about their weapon caps all you want. But 3/4 warriors will never live to see those caps. They depend point blank upon those three skills. And guess what, NOT ONLY do we have stamina decreasing with use, we might have a nifty little lag timer on it as well. Sorry Raes, unless somthing of similar effect is stamped on every class I completely disagree with this. Just like I disagree with the movement loss, and just as I will continue to disagree with any changes made to warrior that don't subsequently boost their strength against the overwhelming dangers about that they should be able to fight, but can't. Cause -oops- we're not a ranger, and only rangers can live on Armageddon.
-Fight.
Quote from: "Fightclub"You want to flag something for a timer, how about backstab. That gets misused more than disarm, kick, or bash, and has more devistating consequences.
With the long lag of backstab, and its not being repeatable in the combat it already has its flaws. Yet, with the addition of the new watch skills, the penalty you are asking was already added to the skill anyway. And since Morgenes is adding stamina penalties to all skills, backstab will get even another penalty.
Quote from: "Fightclub"They depend point blank upon those three skills.
If you truly mean that, I bet you never had a warrior played even for a moderate time. Warriors, beat the crap out of any living being when it comes to melee. If a warrior can't beat it in melee, no other guild can. That is what it is to be a warrior. So disarm/kick/bash does not make a warrior the master of melee. It is the skill caps in offense/defense, weapons skills, parry/shield use/dual wield that makes a warrior a master of melee. If a ranger/assassin is able to outfight a warrior in melee, that means the ranger/assassin is older in playing times or had more chance of using his skills.
Quote from: "Fightclub"That gets misused more than disarm, kick, or bash, and has more devistating consequences.
I would like to comment on this one again: A warrior with high disarm is unbeatable in melee. He can disarm an opponent, and collect the dropped weapon from the ground. He can do it until his opponent has ran out of all melee weapons. And anyone with no weapons can be killed with a walking stick. So this is as dangerous skill as sap/backstab.
Now I don't really see why it is such a big deal to lose stamina trying to do some special move in fight. Warrior already holds the upper hand in terms of melee, and even if he has lower skills, he can pay the price of stamina, and still gain the upper hand. Doing the same maneuver over and over is no use so a warrior has to be smart and surprise his opponent at every move. So, in this whole story, what is the unrealistic part again?
Quote from: "Raesanos"We still are considering adding this in addition to the stamina loss, or instead of it, or along with a change in how much stamina is lost.
I have no idea how big is the stamina lost, but I would much more like to see this "cooldown" instead of it. On the other side, if the stamina lost is not really huge, it probably does not matter for people who do not spam-bash or something.
EDITed to add: Thinking about it, I would like to see backstab added to the list. But perhaps that is just me.
I think spells need a cooldown. :)
Nothing will make warriors useless, fightclub. rangers SUCK at combat comapared to warriors, and so does everyone else. warriors get some kind if bonus, don'T exactly know at what point in the code this comes into play, but most fresh warriors will beat a 5 day ranger or more right off the start. warriors kick some major ass even without those skills, I'm prety sure that they start at much higher skill percentages than any other class, that or there's soem direct combat bonus. Nothing beats a warrior with equal play time. disarm or not.
Quote from: "RunningMountain"I think spells need a cooldown. :)
I
hope that's a joke. IMO beginning spell crafters are more then well balanced.
Quote from: "John"Quote from: "RunningMountain"I think spells need a cooldown. :)
I hope that's a joke. IMO beginning spell crafters are more then well balanced.
We're not going to do this, don't worry.
Something else I'd like to add to the discussion. Sometimes the 'realism' factor is what drives a change, too, as opposed to say balance (though we still try to keep playability in mind). In other words, we feel it's
realisitic to get tired during combat, including using kick/bash/disarm. Which is why we're looking into adding it to other skills. The driving force is not to "nerf" warriors, but to make the game a little more realistic.
I agree with the added stamina loss. You are fighting, it is a labourous task, so it should reflect as such. I think everything in combat should slowly lower your stamina. Don't agree? You try swinging a huge ass bone sword around or spinning and moving to avoid the attacks of your foes in heavy armour...
I just can't wait to see the posts where people claim that this is a stupid addition because they spammed disarm in sparring and so neither of the sparring pair could flee because they both had no more stun.
I think the real question is why do the staff feel that kick/bash/disarm spam needs to be nerfed. Is it a question of power? A question of realism? A question of role-play?
While I can respect the idea that stamina drain during combat is realistic, I have to add my voice to the dozens of dissenters for this one.
In my eyes, it would be far preferable to add more significant delays for kick or bash or disarm to limit the number of times they can be used in a combat rather than imposing a stamina penalty on physical-based skills.
Stamina penalties for non-elves are already pretty harsh in the wilderness. Adding stamina drain for abilities on top of this, if applied in sufficient capacity, is going to make this worse to the point that people will be discouraged from playing.
Realism is nice, but some of the most fun games aren't realistic. People come to play a game to escape from reality, not to be saddled with it in such a way that their gameplaying experience isn't any fun. The entertainment of playing a fighter is to be powerful and do the things you can't do in real life.
Regardless, if there is something that is being abused OOCly or is causing a game balance issue, I am all for addressing it. I don't agree that a coded solution is the best option in some cases, though. In this case, I'm distressed that so many things that are implemented are left to the players who we trust not to abuse things, but then things like this are discouraged directly through code.
Have we already tried to say "look - we consider this bad RP. Don't kick 200 times over and over in a battle, it doesn't make any sense?" (or whatever other reasoning there is for wanting to discourage this)? With such a fluid playerbase, constant reinforcement is always going to be needed.
I just want to politely warn the staff to be cautious when instigating changes like stamina loss to combat. While I think it's a good idea, it still seems to me like it's a temporary solution to a greater problem. The greater problem is the old influence of stock diku combat code, something that is becoming less and less suited to the game as new and exciting changes come in (the watch skill, for example). Personally, I can see all these changes reaching a point that is so persnickety that it just starts to -feel- ludicrous. And the feel of the game is very important in my mind. In other words, while we try and approach realism with these changes, I don't think it can really happen without throwing away the fundamentals of the old diku combat code and replacing it with something new -- keeping it as is will inherently make these great changes negative rather than positive.
Or maybe not. Just think about it. Or maybe you already are. I don't know.
Speaking as someone playing a warrior currently, I gave it a go last night
against a beastie and found that I did lose a noticable amount of stamina
for one or two combat moves. Granted, this may just be that my skill was
lower than I previously believed too. ;)
I do think that Disarm is insanely powerful. Everyone knows that an
unarmed opponent is vulnerable to an armed one.
Oh, and RM: Magickers do get a cooldown. We call it mana loss. ;)
All in all, I like the change so far. I'll have to take a closer look at it
later.
I do not want to see a loss in stamina without something else put in as well. If nothing else will be changed, then I would prefer the cooldown.
One idea I think I'd like to see if bash/kick/disarm make you lose stamina would be moving in the wilderness in some places taking off less stamina. Now I'm not sure exactly what the grey forest, or the windswept plains, or the desert are like, but I know that when I walk in the forest in rl, or a field or whatever, I don't get tired very fast at all, and I think this could be reflected a little better in game.
So ya, if you keep the stamina penalty, I'd like to see something to balance it out a little more.
If you put in the cooldown, I think it would solve most of the spamming problems and wouldn't necessitate (sp?) any other changes.
In conclusion, the cooldown is preferable IMO.
I think that we should be able to regenerate stamina while standing, and regenerate at one point of movement at a time. That would be a cool addition.
The last time I played a moderately buff warrior was awhile go. Since then, two of the skills in question have been insanely buffed.
Kick used to do 1 or 2 points of damage. Three if you were a half giant. Every time, it simply didn't get higher. Spiked bracers did more damage in a fight than spamming kick.
Disarm was absolutely useless against anyone who was not wearing gloves. You might get off one if you were insanely strong and lucky (probably less than 1 out of 100 times).
And...warriors still kicked ass. The only two pk I was involved with, it took less than three RL seconds to kill the other person. Once you are good, you aren't just good in combat, you are insane. These skills were buffed, now they are a little unbuffed just a little in comparison. I don't see the big deal.
I think this is a great addition, primarily because it closes the gap between those warriors who choose to consistently emote during fights and those that use combat skills over and over again for an advantage. That said, I'd vastly prefer to see warriors use disarm, kick, and bash throughout the fight, rather then spamming them at the beginning of the fight until they're out of stamina - I'm not sure the current system addresses this.
Also, in my newbieness, I'm not sure if there's an algorithm within the combat code that lowers combat proficiency if a character's stamina is low, but I think that such would be a boon to this system. By keeping track of their stamina before entering a fight, a great deal of RP opportunities emerge: warriors can attempt to outlast, rather than overpower, an opponent. Assassins can find a unique opportunity for attacking an exhausted warrior. Hunters and caravan guards will find it neccessary to set up camp within the desert to rest. It adds to realism, and it adds to playability. Granted, warriors are taking a hit in the coded power department, but are gaining an interesting piece of code that will force them to think critically, interact with other PCs, and develop a particular style of fighting that works for them. All of that is a great thing.
Quote from: "mansa"I think that we should be able to regenerate stamina while standing, and regenerate at one point of movement at a time. That would be a cool addition.
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"Quote from: "mansa"I think that we should be able to regenerate stamina while standing, and regenerate at one point of movement at a time. That would be a cool addition.
Quote from: "FightClub"They depend point blank upon those three skills.
They have more skills than those three skills.
Quote from: "http://www.armageddon.org/general/guilds.html#warrior"Unarmed combat, expert battle maneuvers such as disarming, the ability to hurl missiles, and the eventual expert use of bows and arrows are all part of a warrior's skills. Some master warriors can even bandage the wounded.
Also, the skill is being missused, when it comes to life or death situations and skill training. Their combat ability is great enough to take down many PCs and NPCs, if done correctly.
Quote from: "http://www.armageddon.org/general/guilds.html#warrior"No other guild can match a warrior's combat prowess
I hope this jogs your memory, because warriors do not rely on three skills to bring them to victories. If it did, I'm sure the documents would state otherwise.
Well...I wasn't going to post. But...Wtf..why not.
Email I sent:
I'm not a big fan of the Stam drain on warrior skills. Not that I mind them, they don't really effect my play much. But, I don't feel they are realistic penalty. Nor is it an effective penalty. I'm playing a warrior right now, and it's pretty easy, even with the stam drain in place to train disarm and bash which are imho what gives warriors their truly awe inspiring fighting skills. Disarm in and of itself is incredibly powerful.
I also think "something" was needed to curb the "bash;stand;disarm;kick;repeat" syndrome and the people who are complaining about warriors being nerfed are a little out of line. It's like a few points of stamina, per skill, get over it.
That said, it's a bit silly that I can fight for hours and hours locked in deadly combat and never lose a point of stamina, but if I try to knock your weapon from your hand I get tired. I see the need for a penalty, I just don't think this is right one.
I was thinking about the change, I wanted to propose something a bit different: Rather then stam drain, I was considering that these skills if they miss should really make you lose an attack that round, or lower your chances for success on your attavks or possibly open you up for an attack.
I also think increasing the dangers associated with failure would curb the "bash;stand; bash;stand; bash;stand; disarm" syndrome.
The reason the "danger of failure" effect appeals to me, is that I found myself typing "disarm;disarm;disarm" at a set interval last fight my new char had. I was trying to train it to a usuable level.
I was unworried about failure because the NPC wasn't going to grab my weapon if I had a critical failure and dropped it, I knew I would be able to snatch it up first.
But, anther time I was attacked in a room full of npcs in an area, and I was VERY cautious with disarm, because I knew if I failed badly that one of these room NPCs would snatch up my shiny new sword because they were coded to do so. I feel things of this nature are a much more effective deterent against against spam skilling.
Another thought are ramifications of success. Which I cover below.
Essentially I break it down like this:
1) Failure or Success for Disarm
a. Lowers your ability to attack the next round (IE lower offense for N rounds) because you were focusing on the disarm
b. Opens you up for attacks (lower defense for N rounds) because you were focusing on the disarm
2) Successful Disarm may also wear away at your weapon
2) Failure for Bash
a. Again if you are trying to bash, you should be less able to attack, because you were tying to knock into the person not hit them with your weapon or defend yourself, so you should suffer a off/deff penalty.
b. Also, for "danger of failure" effect, maybe the penalty for fighting on the ground should be higher? I've always felt that when I bash someone successfully, or they failed to bash me, and I have them on the ground at my mercy that the bonus wasn't' high enough. Upping the on the ground bonus would be a good balancer I think because It would be more effective, but much *more* dangerous to fail as well and as a result would curb attempts.
c. In addition, missing the bash and hitting the ground should also do a moderate amount of damage to the attacker, maybe like 1-3 points. If you are charging at someone full speed and miss, it doesn't tickle.
3) Success for Bash
a. Rather then a stamina drain, this should be a mild HP drain, perhaps one forth of the damage done to the victim is done to the attacker, because the impact. I mean, I did just run into you. I've seen warriors with high bash just bash NPCs to death. Not hit the NPC once with their weapon, but rather just bash, stand, bash stand until the fight was over. This would curb that because some of the damage would be dealt back to you. Not much, but some.
4) Kick
a. The same off/def penalty for Disarm should apply here to reflect that you are concentrating less on your general attack, and more on your kick.
All of that said and done, barring these as more realistic penalties, I don't have a major problem with the stam drain.
Truly, I think combat in general should drain stamina at a set managable rate.
Atleast Endurance is as important as the rest of the stats now, I suppose.
Really good post, jmordetsky. I like those ideas. They make perfect sense.
Stamina loss or effectiveness delays don't make sense in some cases, particularly for half-giants vs. small opponents.
It takes virtually no effort for something as large as a half-giant to knock a human clean across a room, so the stamina loss doesn't make sense (the weight of a human body with gear is trivial compared to a half-giant's strength).
It also takes very little skill on the part of the half-giant, and is consequently very difficult for an attacker to avoid. This thing has arms as long as your halberd and even its glancing blows carry enough force to break bones. Getting knocked over repeatedly should almost happen without any intentional effort put into it by the half-giant...it's like trying to dance with an elephant: eventually you're going to get trampled.
And with disarming...I think half-giants should get a size modifier to this skill, regardless of their guild. Any serious attempt at parrying a blow from a beast this huge is going to result in either your grip or your weapon breaking. A half-giant actively trying to knock your weapon out of your grasp should have a very good chance of being able to do it...because with that much strength behind the blow, it takes absoloutely no technique to succeed...you only need to connect. Furthermore, the idea of disarming a half-giant is a little absurd. I guess you could make the case that it's an attack against the half-giant's hand, causing him to drop the weapon, but that's a skilled shot, and I would say it would have a very low chance of succeeding.
These changes significantly affect the dynamic of half-giant combat, and I think it's to the detriment. Half-giants should be able to wade into combat and wreak havoc with little or no skill or training. Currently this is not the case. It takes real-life months of near-constant combat training for a half-giant warrior to even begin to approach the ability to dominate a combat in a way that all half-giants, warrior or not, should be able to, based solely on the virtues of their size and strength. And since half-giants attack so -ridiculously- slowly, these secondary combat commands are absoloutely essential for them to effectively dominate combat.
Now, moving away from half-giants, the stamina and effectiveness delays are simply unfair to beginning warriors. Other classes still have only the ordinary penalties (command delays, mainly) to their second-tier combat skills, while now warriors have the command delays -and- a stamina penalty -and/or- a success probability penalty.
To make it fair, I propose the following:
1. Throw - Successive attempts at throwing knives at someone should be penalized by lowering the chance of a successful strike. If you can't -kick- someone as effectively, why should you be able to throw a knife at them with equal effectiveness, when now they are probably actively engaged in trying to avoid your knives?
2. Backstab - Successive attempts at backstabbing (e.g. backstab;disengage;backstab) should be penalized in a similar manner, in addition to the penalties already received for attempting to backstab a target already engaged in combat. The same reasoning applies.
3. Sap - Same as backstab.
4. Subdue - Same reasoning holds. Apply stamina loss and negative success probability modifier here.
5. Flee - Apply stamina loss to failed attempts, and make successive attempts less likely to succeed. (Ha. Yeah, right.)
But, to make a long story short, I think the whole idea stinks. The reasoning presented is simply a fig leaf for the real idea behind the idea, which is to prevent spamming. If we're going to universally apply the logic here, then -every- skill should drain your stamina, and -every- skill should have penalties against frequent successive uses, not just combat skills. That obviously is a bad idea.
If you scanned the other posts regarding this, other physical skills will be draining stamina.
Additionally, I'm not so sure it's an attempt to stop spammers as an attempt for realism. Remember, a spill-code for bowled food just went in as well.
I think the thought behind this change is a good one and I applaud the staff for that.
My concern though is bringing Stanima into combat in any way shape or form worries be in regard to balance issues.
If we're spending ST in fights, and npcs are too, then players will now suddenly have to consider their st in a greater level in combat that before, where as npcs, being the block heads they are, won't. They recover faster than we do too, standing and ready to fight, without having to rest. In fact if I'm correct an npc recovers as fast if not a little faster standing ready, then a player does resting.
End result that I see is while players have to plan and be tactical, npcs can continue to be the mindless attackers they are. While my post is taking things a little far, one or two st isn't a big deal for skills that you should maybe use only a few times in combat. I think I'm going to agree with mansa and Deadly7 here. If you're going to take st for something done in combat, you should give it back too. But that would render this change useless. Maybe a cooldown would just be an ultimate better solution.
Or maybe instead of a cool down, a skill penalty. You kick once, cool. You kick again within a certain amount of time and you receive a massive penalty for kicking while off balance.
If you fail a kick currently and get a critical failure as I understand it can suck for you. Making the cool down hurt your skill would mean spamming kick/disarm/bash (all of which have crit failures that suck for you) would result on you getting knocked on your behind frequently. Make sure the code accounts for this and doesn't give skill gains based off of poor choices on when to use said skills and I think we may have a slightly better solution for the problem as I understand it to be.
It seems to be that bash is essential in stopping magickers from repeatedly casting nasty spells at you. How is limiting its use going to balance warriors further if they are fortunate enough to even be able to SEE their opponent?
Quote from: "Yang"It seems to be that bash is essential in stopping magickers from repeatedly casting nasty spells at you. How is limiting its use going to balance warriors further if they are fortunate enough to even be able to SEE their opponent?
Quote from: "Raesanos"The benefit of adding some additional strategy to combat is also a factor, though admittedly that has less to do with balance.
Play smarter.
Don't be afraid to flee, it is part of strategy.
I like it. I like it all. Yum!
Quote from: "Synthesis"And with disarming...I think half-giants should get a size modifier to this skill, regardless of their guild. Any serious attempt at parrying a blow from a beast this huge is going to result in either your grip or your weapon breaking. A half-giant actively trying to knock your weapon out of your grasp should have a very good chance of being able to do it...because with that much strength behind the blow, it takes absoloutely no technique to succeed...you only need to connect. Furthermore, the idea of disarming a half-giant is a little absurd. I guess you could make the case that it's an attack against the half-giant's hand, causing him to drop the weapon, but that's a skilled shot, and I would say it would have a very low chance of succeeding.
Quote from: "http://www.armageddon.org/general/races.html#halfgiant"However, possibly due to the magick which birthed half-giants, they are infamously stupid and have very low wisdoms. In addition, because of their great size, half-giants are typically slow to move and have low agilities.
Quote from: "Help Agility"Agility is an ability score that measures all types of physical coordination and swiftness. Hand-eye coordination, reaction time, balance, depth perception, and reflexes are all types of characteristics measured by agility.
With that said, I think Half giants' agility portray them as very clumsy creatures as well. It is fairly hard for them to knock your blade into another room, if you are darting every-wich-a-way from them.
Quote from: "Synthesis"Half-giants should be able to wade into combat and wreak havoc with little or no skill or training.
Size and strength are not the main factors that determine the victor in battles. A lightning fast elf could make steak out of giants, if they are fast enough.
Also, they are very dangerous in combat as it is. It might take a while to get to the point where you can rip anyone to pieces, but there are half-giants out there that can do 100-200 pts of damage (an estimate), if the player puts a bit of strategy into play.
Quote from: "Mental Case"I just can't wait to see the posts where people claim that this is a stupid addition because they spammed disarm in sparring and so neither of the sparring pair could flee because they both had no more stun.
Combat SHOULD stop then IMO.
I like Synthesis's description of a Half-Giant in a fight, and agree with it.
Is a HORRIBLE idea.
I think some of you that are all for this idea: adding stamina decrease while you are battling, must not even play combat characters very often.
Most characters that I play are combat characters and outdoorsy. It is already extremely difficult to get good at combat without twinking or joining the Byn or some such other clan where there are people to spar. Adding this stamina decrease is not good, and it's not neccesary unless learning combat is going to be faster, and the entire battle system is going to be reworked to go faster.
Sometimes it has taken me fifteen minutes to kill one thing like a skeet, starting out. Maybe strength is below average so the blow just keeps bouncing off the chitin. But it's just something you have to endure when starting out and you are to weak to fight sometimes. As well, people that use shield only get in one attack and they have a high defense, so sometimes the defense is high and the offense hasn't caught up so the battle takes a while. No IRL it may be ten or so minutes but in game it is much longer. The code in itself is not realistic in the aspect that it takes five minutes IRL to kill a yompar baking on a sunrock but that is the code. That is why during sparring different things are emoted like drills and slow steady sparring movements, different people have different styles of combat emoting. But the combat code in itself is not realistic, it only provides a way for us to codedly defeat someone in battle. The emoting is left to the players.
Adding this stamina decrease would be taking a huge step (though an easier step) infront of the code. I'm not even saying that the combat code even needs to be changed. The point I'm trying to make is, you are considering putting in this stamina code to make it more realistic but the combat code is not realistic in itself. All this is going to do is deter people from fighting at all and the real people it's going to effect are the indies and the hunters who can not escape from battle because they were fighting gurth that should have taken them less then ten minutes IG but because of the code and the poor strength causing the sword to bounce of it's shell due to code, it took them RL fifteen minutes, oh look someone lead a bahamet into the same square with the him *CHOMP*
The body of a potbellied gurth is here.
An armored bahamet has arrived from the west.
An armored bahamet viscously pinches you on the neck.
>flee
You flee heading north.
s
[NSWE] The Windswept Grasslands
>hitch kank
An armored bahamet has arrived from the north.
>mount kank
An armored bahamet viscously pinches you on the wrist.
A yellow kank throws you from it's back!
flee
flee
flee
You flee heading west.
An armored bahamet has arrived from the east.
w
You run west.
An armored bahamet has arrived from the east.
w
You are too exhausted!
That seems more available for twinking to me. Meanwhile, the person that lead the bahamet into the square with the other person who is exhausted from fighting leads the bahamet away and takes up the stuff of the person who died. Anytime you fight you will be at risk.
A group of Bynners fighting spiders and the IMMs decide they want gith to run in? How are they going to do that when everyone is exhausted from battling. Oh yeah and of course they'll have to take time out of the RPT to rest after fighting one or two things.
No, it's ridiculous. It doesn't make anything more realistic. It just makes it a pain. People already have to worry about dehydration, and running out of stamina if they have to flee, and starvation, and the thing they are battling and the risk of any raider or large creature coming in after them.
Adding stamina isn't realistic, it will just screw up the code, the combat system itself is to unrealistically long. I wish the stamina penalty would be taken out entirely, but adding that to some skills and then to combat, is different entirely. And I really really, hope you guys are not going to add a stamina penalty to combat. Because it would just suck for many OOC and IC reasons, and put players at a greater risk to do anything, especially for newbs.
EDIT - Not to mention a raider can just follow someone around, run in and attack, get them to flee, lose stamina, then when they are exhausted just kill them so they can't flee or shoot them from a safe distance. This stamina loss would open it up even more for raiders to take advantage of people and in what I think is a twinkish way of doing it.
Leave well enough alone right? That is one thing freaking me out, there's nothing wrong with the combat system right now, why change it?
Quote from: "Bebop"I think some of you that are all for this idea: adding stamina decrease while you are battling, must not even play combat characters very often.
I have been playing since 99. In that time, I have played two characters who were not fighters, wait, no, one.
My longest lived 52 days, my next longest 39, and my next longest 38.
I am for stamina decrease.
Quote from: "Bebop"I think SOME of you that are all for this idea: adding stamina decrease while you are battling, must not even play combat characters very often.
...guh.
Consider this a blanket warning. Stop the personal attacks and drop the bitchy attitude. People are entitled to their opinions and it is not your place to invalidate them simply because they're different from your own.
No one has said that stamina decreases will go in for merely being in combat. The only change that has occurred is that warriors now suffer a penalty for using extra moves in combat. They already rule the field when it comes to straight up fighting without using any auxillary skills, and from what I understand, these stamina penalties were put in to help reflect the fact that those skills are just that; auxillary skills, extra strategies that you should use and time with thought and care, not five times in a row because you can.
To truly rule the combat field in Armageddon, you need to use thought, strategy, and caution. In short, you need to do far more than type kill and be ready to flee if you start getting too low in hitpoints. Far, far more. If that is the way you (a general 'you', not you, Bebop) are playing combat characters, then perhaps this addition will help in adjusting your thinking and your approach to combat.
I have played mainly combat characters, and furthermore I have played combat characters that were extremely successful out on the battlefield, in solo and in mass combat situations, so I like to think I know what I'm talking about. You can succeed in battle without using a single warrior 'extra' (i.e. kick, bash, disarm), they are the icing on the cake that allows you to be truly, devastatingly deadly. However, thoughtless use of those skills defeats their purpose, and so I am in full support of any code that nudges the player of a warrior to use care and thought in their application in battle.
[Edit: fixed typo. Dumb laptops.]
Quote from: "Delirium"No one has said that stamina decreases wil go in for merely being in combat. The only change that has occurred is that warriors now suffer a penalty for using extra moves in combat. They already rule the field when it comes to straight up fighting without using any auxillary skills, and from what I understand, these stamina penalties were put in to help reflect the fact that those skills are just that; auxillary skills, extra strategies that you should use and time with thought and care, not five times in a row because you can.
To truly rule the combat field in Armageddon, you need to use thought, strategy, and caution. In short, you need to do far more than type kill and be ready to flee if you start getting too low in hitpoints. Far, far more. If that is the way you (a general 'you', not you, Bebop) are playing combat characters, then perhaps this addition will help in adjusting your thinking and your approach to combat.
I have played mainly combat characters, and furthermore I have played combat characters that were extremely successful out on the battlefield, in solo and in mass combat situations, so I like to think I know what I'm talking about. You can succeed in battle without using a single warrior 'extra' (i.e. kick, bash, disarm), they are the icing on the cake that allows you to be truly, devastatingly deadly. However, thoughtless use of those skills defeats their purpose, and so I am in full support of any code that nudges the player of a warrior to use care and thought in their application in battle.
Bingo!
In the case of potentially far-reaching changes like this, the first thing we do is to offer burnt offerings to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Then we normally decide things via a belching contest between Halaster and Naiona. Thinking about things is too hard. Then we hire monkeys to actually code the changes in, and Morgenes takes the credit because the monkeys are on a contract that says that all intellectual property they come up with belongs to him.
In an alternate universe where I take people seriously, I'd be tempted to ask, "Do you really think that we just throw changes into the game willy-nilly without putting a lot of time, discussion, and thought into them?" It's one thing if you just disagree with or don't like a particular change, but quite another thing when people start taking that to an extreme and acting like we have nothing in the way of processes. One thing that's important to remember when posting any kind of feedback is that it's a lot more likely to be considered if it is not perceived as insulting.
Last time I checked, a bow in the south cost close to 600 coins.
PLEASE FOR THE LOVE ODIN, BUDDAH, CHRIST, ANUBIS, AND ZEUS!
Don't put stamnia drain on good ole fashion combat. I honestly suck hard at this game. So it takes my rangers awhile to build up the funds to even afford a bow and the arrows along with a quiver in the south.
Its bad enough I spend the first 4 or 6 days of my characters life getting them good enough to kill a scrab in melee combat. I become king of the "flee" command.
No I hate clans, refuse to join them. Working with other people usually results in me getting killed/raided from as soon as I step outside the gates.
So adding some random stamnia drain to good ole combat will just fuck me right over. Being an ISO ranger is all I got left, don't take that away from me.
I used to play warriors. I stopped, because it was 'too easy'.
A human warrior may become good in melee in no time. And he gets really good. A bit of stamina drain too taxing?
Maybe it is.. But why's this attitute? Forgive me but this discussion was... uncivil.
I'm not thinking of playing a warrior for long - too easy, so I have no point of view on this subject. Normally I am just watching.. Just.
Yang: Magickers cannot spam spells. They have mana. It gets drained in big chunks when you cast something strong. The mage kills you with a single chanting or a couple, or he dies.
All others claiming it'll become harder to kill a mage: Killing a mage on your own should already be hard.
People claiming this idea is 'stupid': Then explain the flaw nicely. Show us reasons why warriors will become crap with this stamina loss instead of repeating 'stupid stupid stupid'. No, warriors are still masters. Find another reasoning. I don't believe the stamina loss is 50 points per trial and people use kanks to navigate. It takes the stamina from you, not from your kank. Just exhaust yourself and then hop on your kank. Give the poor bug a kick with your last stamina points and it will go.
for the record, if you're in the south and you want to be an archer, use a goddamn sling. It's literally -dirt- cheap.
I figure I'll go ahead and throw my two sid into the pot. As a fan of warriors, I'll admit I was a little dissapointed to see the stamina loss, but I can accept it as realistic. What I don't like is hearing people say 'just play them smarter'. Bash, and disarm, are core skills of warriors. They are what seperates a warrior from a ranger, combat wise, as I've seen some rangers who can be pretty deadly in melee. Remember that most warriors will never attain the level of melee eliteness that is their province. Combine this with the fact that kick can be gained through a subclass, as can archery, subdue, and guard, even if their caps are low. Against a mage, bash is the -only- tactical skill a warrior has against them, to keep them from casting, and I would heavily support a warrior bashing the -shit- out of a mage every time he could, because otherwise, he's toast. Especially against mages using stoneskin (and I feel it's alright to mention this spell since the helpfile on it is available to everyone). So as for playing smarter, I think the mage classes (who are already incredibly powerful) should be played smarter. I'm positive just about any mage has more ways to kill a warrior then a warrior has to kill a mage. And while I'm not calling for absolute balance between warriors and mages (that's why I like the fact that mages are karma required. They -should- be more powerful) I think warriors are already at a disadvantage enough against mages.
I can deal with the stamina loss, but putting a cooldown beyond the lag that's already on them I will not support, and while I don't mean to sound childish, if such a cool down was put in place, I'd never play a warrior again. The stamina loss is enough and realistic. Coding it so that warriors can't bash repeatedly if they need to (which is perfectly realistic and tactical) even with taking a loss of some sort is not realistic.
I can't help but feel that the main supporters, players -and- staff of this whole combat skill nerfing have probably played a character (mage or not) that's had their ass handed to them by a warrior who bashed/disarmed/kicked them repeatedly and were irritated by it. That's usually when people call for change. When they've been effected negatively. Nobody that's happy with the way things are calls for those things to be changed.
Im not for movement drain for simply being in combat.
But i dont mind the fact warriors loose movement for kick, bash, disarm.
The current delay for kick, bash and disarm already functions as a cooldown, stamina loss + cool down + lag would be seriously unfair for a warrior, granted.
However keep the following in mind
1 - Even without kick, bash and disarm a warrior will outmatch anyone toe-to-toe. I have been involved in combat that finished so quickly kick couldn't even be typed in.
2 - Even without kick, bash and disarm a warrior will outmatch anyone toe-to-toe.
Warriors dont rise and fall with those three skills. Look at it this way. When using one of these special moves you are trying to put yourself in a spot where you can preform it without getting hurt and move quick enough to execute the move. It is taxing on the mind and body, and thus you lose a small amount of stamina. If your warrior cant finish a fight without taxing all their movement, you seriously need to reconsider your tactics.
It would be a joke however if we lost movement for each round of combat, each blow that misses, each sucessful parry, etc.
But stamina loss for three skills that only inconvience the guild slightly? Im all for it.
People who think that warriors will always outmatch other classes toe-to-toe, without secondary skill use are mistaken.
Granted, the other combatant will have to be much more -experienced- than the warrior, but assassins, rangers, even merchants can hold their own against a warrior, if they've practiced fighting enough. Every class gets shield use and dual wield, and those two skills, if practiced enough, are enough to counter a warrior's parry and weapon skill. You might not be able to -kill- him, but he won't be able to kill you, either, if he's not using any other command.
The only "aces in the hole" a warrior has (until he has reached 15-20 days of playing time with moderate training) are the secondary skills.
Not going anywhere with this, just pointing it out to correct any misconceptions people may have.
Quote from: "Synthesis"People who think that warriors will always outmatch other classes toe-to-toe, without secondary skill use are mistaken.
Granted, the other combatant will have to be much more -experienced- than the warrior, but assassins, rangers, even merchants can hold their own against a warrior, if they've practiced fighting enough.....You might not be able to -kill- him, but he won't be able to kill you, either, if he's not using any other command.
The only "aces in the hole" a warrior has (until he has reached 15-20 days of playing time with moderate training) are the secondary skills.
Which is completely realistic. "A merchant trained in combat vs a 1 hour old warrior will be able to hold his own, unless the warrior is allowed to use secondary skills, but unless he's good at them, he'll have to spam them, which he can't do anymore." Not seeing a problem there, this code actually fixes a flaw. Great.
Quote from: "Agent_137"for the record, if you're in the south and you want to be an archer, use a goddamn sling. It's literally -dirt- cheap.
The Agent is right. In the south, slings should be used far more frequently, and Salaar should be selling some better quality ones regularly. Even the room descriptions outside of the city support this notion.
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"Quote from: "Agent_137"for the record, if you're in the south and you want to be an archer, use a goddamn sling. It's literally -dirt- cheap.
The Agent is right. In the south, slings should be used far more frequently, and Salaar should be selling some better quality ones regularly. Even the room descriptions outside of the city support this notion.
Have you guys ever tried that? To use that available sling, you need to be i the same room with the target. Which will attack you, even if it isn't aggressive, cause you're in the same room and throwing stones at it.
Even one-room bows are close to useless in the south for hunting - only usable on jozhal, not on the dangerous beasties that you want to stay away from by using a ranged weapon.
Why useless? Cause once you get into archery range of that scrab/spider/beetle, it will come at you and try to eat you before you can even aim and fire once. And you're even worse off, youve put yourself into a situation where you're facing a scrab/beetle/spider without a weapon drawn to defend yourself.
Quick question Nao. Have you ever played a seasoned ranger (who took the time to learn archery), or just a newbie one?
I've only played newbie ones myself, but I believe (from what people like Angela Christine have said) that once you get good, a sling is good enough (if not to completely kill, at least significantly hurt).
Quote from: "John"Quick question Nao. Have you ever played a seasoned ranger (who took the time to learn archery), or just a newbie one?
I've only played newbie ones myself, but I believe (from what people like Angela Christine have said) that once you get good, a sling is good enough (if not to completely kill, at least significantly hurt).
Althoug it is not really totally related to the original topic:
But John, she is not saying the sling does not deal much damage. She says it is nearly useless in south because of the nature of the NPCs.
Quote from: "Cenghiz"I used to play warriors. I stopped, because it was 'too easy'.
A human warrior may become good in melee in no time. And he gets really good. A bit of stamina drain too taxing?
Maybe it is.. But why's this attitute? Forgive me but this discussion was... uncivil.
I'm not thinking of playing a warrior for long - too easy, so I have no point of view on this subject. Normally I am just watching.. Just.
Yang: Magickers cannot spam spells. They have mana. It gets drained in big chunks when you cast something strong. The mage kills you with a single chanting or a couple, or he dies.
All others claiming it'll become harder to kill a mage: Killing a mage on your own should already be hard.
People claiming this idea is 'stupid': Then explain the flaw nicely. Show us reasons why warriors will become crap with this stamina loss instead of repeating 'stupid stupid stupid'. No, warriors are still masters. Find another reasoning. I don't believe the stamina loss is 50 points per trial and people use kanks to navigate. It takes the stamina from you, not from your kank. Just exhaust yourself and then hop on your kank. Give the poor bug a kick with your last stamina points and it will go.
[Edited by Raesanos, this included too much in-character information about an encouter with a magic user and what they could do]
Quote from: "Ghost"But John, she is not saying the sling does not deal much damage. She says it is nearly useless in south because of the nature of the NPCs.
I can think of a few ways to use it coupled with other skills, but they're in in theory. The code might not support them. I was wondering if someone whose had actual experience can say whether or not slings can be effective against animals in the southlands.
So, I take my current PC and head south, buy a sling.
Go out and look, it fires 2 rooms away.
Never seen a same room sling myself...but maybe it has something to do with the strength of the pc.
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"Quote from: "Agent_137"for the record, if you're in the south and you want to be an archer, use a goddamn sling. It's literally -dirt- cheap.
The Agent is right. In the south, slings should be used far more frequently, and Salaar should be selling some better quality ones regularly. Even the room descriptions outside of the city support this notion.
Well I'm a retarded, I never bothered to read the whole list of what was offered.
Quote from: "Fightclub"In the process of the mages chanting, the character in question could never attack the mage, although the mage would have most likely been clearly giving his location unless he was pitching his voice (no indication was given of this) So why the overkill, shouldn't the warrior have a -chance-? Should mages have a similar timer, yes. If not worse
So you assume the
levitating,
invisible mage was within your reach? I believe he kept close to a wall and silently howered to another position whenever you rushed to the sound. Realistic enough now?
Please understand. As I have told about 100 or more times, a single mage can kill a single warrior with ease. It is the way it should be.
FightClub -
IMHO, that's way too much IC info about magick.
Quote from: "FightClub"So why the overkill, shouldn't the warrior have a -chance-?
You do have a chance. That is why we have the 'flee' command.
I personally think this topic is silly, it's just realistic to lose stamina! Warrior's still have the advantage over close combat...
Ok, I know Warrior's are not the best combat class. And they shouldn't be! there is three non karma classes that can kill easily, (one of which has other skills, the three are)
1. Assassin = sneaky combat, and ranged combat
2. Ranger = ranged combat, and some close combat
3. Warrior = close combat, and some ranged
Ok, warriors are not the best! nor are they ment to be. It barely makes a difference anyway. I mean, how many times do you need to disarm someone knocking their weapon to the east? how many times would you need to knock someone to the ground? only once every now and again.
Yay for stamina loss! They still have the greatest advantage over close combat. How important are bash, kick, and disarm anyway?
I don't think Warrior's are ment to have the best combative skills. They shouldn't anyway... 'cause otherwise it would be unbalanced. They have the best close combat skills... that's enough for me.
*shotgun blast to head*
Quote from: "flurry"FightClub -
IMHO, that's way too much IC info about magick.
It was completely hypothetical I made all of that up, now you validating that it was ic info however -- haha! :shock:
Quote from: "Ritley"I personally think this topic is silly, it's just realistic to lose stamina! Warrior's still have the advantage over close combat...
Ok, I know Warrior's are not the best combat class. And they shouldn't be! there is three non karma classes that can kill easily, (one of which has other skills, the three are)
1. Assassin = sneaky combat, and ranged combat
2. Ranger = ranged combat, and some close combat
3. Warrior = close combat, and some ranged
Ok, warriors are not the best! nor are they ment to be. It barely makes a difference anyway. I mean, how many times do you need to disarm someone knocking their weapon to the east? how many times would you need to knock someone to the ground? only once every now and again.
Yay for stamina loss! They still have the greatest advantage over close combat. How important are bash, kick, and disarm anyway?
I don't think Warrior's are ment to have the best combative skills. They shouldn't anyway... 'cause otherwise it would be unbalanced. They have the best close combat skills... that's enough for me.
It is realistic to lose stamina while fighting. It is also -unrealistic- that noone besides warriors lose -any- stamina while in combat. Warriors, the -masters of melee- have physical drain while in combat (even if it is only from some of their combat skills) where noone else does. If realism was a factor for adding it, some representation of stamina loss should've been added for -all- guilds that find themselves in combat at all.
Quote from: "jhunter"
It is realistic to lose stamina while fighting. It is also -unrealistic- that noone besides warriors lose -any- stamina while in combat. Warriors, the -masters of melee- have physical drain while in combat (even if it is only from some of their combat skills) where noone else does. If realism was a factor for adding it, some representation of stamina loss should've been added for -all- guilds that find themselves in combat at all.
They don't lose stamina while fighting, just using their special skills. Like I said before, even without their special skills, they are still the ultimate master of melee. A master warrior could liturally fight armies in melee. Hold off two half giant rangers. That's without using their "special skills" even if those half giants could beat the warrior from a distance. Every guild has different strengths and weakness', they balanced warriors with this penalty. Glad they have.
Quote from: "Wykydtronn"Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"Quote from: "Agent_137"for the record, if you're in the south and you want to be an archer, use a goddamn sling. It's literally -dirt- cheap.
The Agent is right. In the south, slings should be used far more frequently, and Salaar should be selling some better quality ones regularly. Even the room descriptions outside of the city support this notion.
Well I'm a retarded, I never bothered to read the whole list of what was offered.
I hope this isn't a smartass comment, because my statement was in no way meant to be smartass. Anyway, someone brought up the distance of slings. And I agree the slings don't have the range of a bow. But, rock-throwing weapons could be marketed and produced by Salaar. Someone will do the research, I hope, but I know that a slingshot isn't the only type of weapon that throws rocks in the RL world. Some sling a stone much, much further, and harder.
Mmm, and what X-D said. I remember an assassination carried out by a half-giant with a sling, back then. I was pretty sure those victims were more than one room away. I don't nessessarily think the sling is useless, jjust underused and acknowledged.
It is realistic to grow tired from fighting, but realistic is not always better, at least not for this game.
My biggest problem with combat stanima loss is it doesn't reflect well across the game. If pcs need to start considering how much energy they have fighting, then the mindless npcs become suddenly much more dangerous - and unrealistic. While the pcs will have to start considering, do I have enough energy to go against that thing, said thing isn't going to care. Gith arn't going to consider, gee, do I have enough energy to fight this guy, take his stuff, escape if needed and possibly fight another battle if someone walks in on me? Furthermore, even if they did consider it, they stand round all day, fully rested, without having to worry about food, being in the sun all day or water much - though it is cool they at least carry it to suggest they have some consideration.
Tembo don't consider, do I have enough energy to kill this guy, and then defend my kill from other tembo after fighting it. A real life example would be, yes, bears. Goddless killing machines. When confronted with a bear, one of the things, depending on the breed, they suggest you do is fight back as hard as you can, not because you could ever hope to take a bear, but because if you put up enough of a fight that bear might decide you're more trouble then your worth. This is because a real life bear is considering it's health, energy, when fighting and won't get involved in a fight if it can't 1) win, and 2) have enough energy protect it's kill and not fall victim to a preditor itself.
Unless npcs suddenly start reflecting these considerations, I am against combat fatigue of any kind. It's true though at least with these changes, bash/kick/disarm is less often used against npcs, my point stays the same.
I'd be much more in favor of kick/bash/disarm and other class skills the staff want to see not spammed get a cooldown time of some kind (I really liked my suggestion of during said cooldown time you got a skill penalty to suggest you were 'off balance' making it far more likely to just plain critically fail the skill).
Quote from: "Ritley"Quote from: "jhunter"
It is realistic to lose stamina while fighting. It is also -unrealistic- that noone besides warriors lose -any- stamina while in combat. Warriors, the -masters of melee- have physical drain while in combat (even if it is only from some of their combat skills) where noone else does. If realism was a factor for adding it, some representation of stamina loss should've been added for -all- guilds that find themselves in combat at all.
They don't lose stamina while fighting, just using their special skills. Like I said before, even without their special skills, they are still the ultimate master of melee. A master warrior could liturally fight armies in melee. Hold off two half giant rangers. That's without using their "special skills" even if those half giants could beat the warrior from a distance. Every guild has different strengths and weakness', they balanced warriors with this penalty. Glad they have.
They don't use those special skills that were affected unless it is -for combat- Ritley. That line of reasoning is irrelevant.
It doesn't make it right to impose realistic physics on only one guild and not the rest. It makes the other guilds unbalanced and more unrealistic now. That's saying that it's okay that warriors have to stick to tight constraints of realism but noone else does. That in itself, is unbalancing. Warriors, and currently -only- warriors now have to factor in stamina during combat where -noone- else does. That is not balance or realism IMO.
Also think about this....a warrior and a non-warrior both run out of stamina and are in melee. The warrior now can no longer fight to his full potential because he is too tired, the non-warrior is unaffected.
This is realistic??? This is balanced???
No. Not at all.
With my last warrior character I rarely used any of the secondary skills even though he fought... a fair amount. As an indication of that he branched two of the weapon skills.
Since I'm not playing a warrior character right now I cannot speak as to how this change impacts warriors. From my own experience, the impact wouldn't be huge.
It may be that this code change is a pre-cursor to a wider overhaul of combat and its results. Who knows, we may start seeing things like stamina loss after X minutes based on endurance? (Or would that make endurance an attribute that is too important to characters?)
For example, if Amos and Malik the mercenaries were sparring for more then an IC hour their stamina would start to drain away with every hit and dodge. Upon exhaustion perhaps they'd collapse on the ground - only able to defend themselves no more hitting. Ooooh.. how I can see people not liking that idea but I think it'd be grand. Although, if this were to happen, perhaps at a certain point that stamina would start to regen without having to rest. Say, from between 0-20% of stamina there would be regen standing.
We may see combat leading to permanent reductions in people's stamina or hit points based on powerful hits to certain locations.
We may see temporary reductions in stamina or hit points based on combat results. That guy that gets chomped on the foot by a mekillot might see their stamina reduced to half and it would take IC days to recover it back. Ahhh.. how I hope.
Someone bashed on the head for 40 hp of damage or more might see their stun reduced for the period of ten IC days.
We may see other introductions of ways to permanently damage a character without killing them - how I wish this will happen so people would start fearing for their characters without necessarily having to face death.
The warrior will only run out of stamina if he uses kick bash or disarm. A warrior doesn't even need them to kick the fuck out of other guilds in close combat.
I'm not playing a warrior right now, nor does my current character have these mentioned skills, so I can't determine how much stamina loss is occurring.
That said, picture it this way:
Two people are fighting, one a warrior and one a ranger. They are evenly matched on offense/defense and weapon skills. They are in melee combat. The ranger swings his weapons, the warrior swings his...and charges in with his shoulder! In this situation, who should lost more stamina?
Continuing this example, after the warrior has tried to kick the ranger in the face ten times, don't you think the ranger would see it coming the eleventh?
I'm fine with stamina loss, since the warrior is putting forth that much extra exertion. I'm fine with cooldown to reflect that the warrior is giving away his secret tricksy moves that won't be nearly so tricksy the second, third or fiftieth time around on the same opponent.
I also trust the IMMs to tweek these to not completely nerf warriors.
Quote from: "Ritley"The warrior will only run out of stamina if he uses kick bash or disarm. A warrior doesn't even need them to kick the fuck out of other guilds in close combat.
You're completely missing the point here Ritley.
This -isn't- about whether or not the warrior will still kick their ass. I repeat people, this is -not- about whether or not the warrior will still beat the other guilds in melee.
It's about realism across the board for all guilds. It's about imposing the same realistic contstraints on all guilds not on just one guild. It's about imposing the same physics on all of the pc types that make up the gameworld. They live in the same world, the physics should be the same for them.
It is -not- realistic this way. In fact, it's more unrealistic than before it was added because it makes the other guilds -more- unrealistic in comparision.
Quote from: "jhunter"Quote from: "Ritley"The warrior will only run out of stamina if he uses kick bash or disarm. A warrior doesn't even need them to kick the fuck out of other guilds in close combat.
You're completely missing the point here Ritley.
This -isn't- about whether or not the warrior will still kick their ass. I repeat people, this is -not- about whether or not the warrior will still beat the other guilds in melee.
It's about realism across the board for all guilds. It's about imposing the same realistic contstraints on all guilds not on just one guild. It's about imposing the same physics on all of the pc types that make up the gameworld, they live in the same world the physics should be the same for them.
It is -not- realistic this way. In fact, it's more unrealistic than before it was added because it makes the other guilds -more- unrealistic in comparision.
So people should lose stamina when using a bow? no, I don't think so, becuase they're only using their arms, and it takes a while to pull the arrow out of the quiver anyway, giving them time to recover. Backstabbing? no because it's a subtle movement, unless of couse your spam using it then, fair play. Throw? no, same principals as the bow. Sap, maybe, but you only tend to use it once anyway.
Ok, give me a example then?
I definitely think people should lose stamina when using a bow. Absofuckinglutely. You stand and shoot a bow repeatedly and tell me you don't get tired. If you say you don't, you have the fucking stamina of a cheetah or you are lying.
In the end, all pcs should be affected by their stamina during combat. What part of this is so hard to understand?
Are you saying it's realistic that noone but a warrior tires in combat at all? (Again, it doesn't matter that it's only some of their skills, they are strictly combat skills and are a part of the warrior's arsenal in melee combat. Thus, when they are using them they are fighting to their full potential and are tiring during combat. A non-warrior does not tire in combat while fighting to their full potential.)
Are trying to convince me that it's realistic an exhausted warrior fights far below his potential but an exhausted, ranger, assassin, merchant, pick-pocket...etc...does not?
Edit: An example? Sure thing. How about just being in combat period? That should realistically wear on -all- pc's stamina.
Yes, you might get tired if you used the bow over, and over, and over again... but, first you have to type it. And then you aim, which takes a short while. So no, it shouldn't really.
Quote from: "Ritley"Yes, you might get tired if you used the bow over, and over, and over again... but, first you have to type it. And then you aim, which takes a short while. So no, it shouldn't really.
We're not talking about typing it here Ritley. :roll: We're talking realism. Seriously, you must not have ever shot a bow in your life. Go find an archery range or something...try to nock, draw and shoot, arrow after arrow without taking any time to do anything else between. Oh, and no compound bow, use a standard, old-fashioned type bow.
When you type:
pull quiver
shoot blahblah east
You take aim with your bow.
You shoot a red-fletched, white-shafted patriot arrow east.
That is what you are doing nocking, drawing back and shooting an arrow.
Quote from: "jhunter"Quote from: "Ritley"Yes, you might get tired if you used the bow over, and over, and over again... but, first you have to type it. And then you aim, which takes a short while. So no, it shouldn't really.
We're not talking about typing it here Ritley. :roll: We're talking realism. Seriously, you must not have ever shot a bow in your life. Go find an archery range or something...try to nock, draw and shoot, arrow after arrow without taking any time to do anything else between. Oh, and no compound bow, use a standard, old-fashioned type bow.
When you type:
pull quiver
shoot blahblah east
You take aim with your bow.
You shoot a red-fletched, white-shafted patriot arrow east.
That is what you are doing nocking, drawing back and shooting an arrow.
Not my point. You still have to draw the arrow, which takes two or three seconds, nocking it takes four or five, and nocking it wouldn't drain energy, then it comes to shooting it.
You aren't getting my point. It doesn't really take two or three seconds Ritley. And nocking it doesn't really take four or five, it takes energy to draw back the bow dependant upon the draw of the bow. It takes energy to hold a non-compound bow's string back while you aim.
Might hurt your arms, but would it really make you out of breath? I don't think so.
Quote from: "spawnloser"I'm not playing a warrior right now, nor does my current character have these mentioned skills, so I can't determine how much stamina loss is occurring.
2-6 points of stamina loss. It isn't very much.
Anyways, this stamina penalty doesn't affect only the warrior class, but many feel that it is warriors only that get the penalty, because the effected skills only show up for that guild in their skill list.
I'm all for the stamina loss, because these skills are often spammed, and they usually put the other guilds at a
GREAT disadvantage, if successful. Warriors are already masters of melee combat and that adds onto that disadvantage.
My two 'sids.
Quote from: "Ritley"Might hurt your arms, but would it really make you out of breath? I don't think so.
If your arms hurt you aren't going to fight as effectively. You aren't going to move as easily with sore muscles. And pulling a bow using more than your arm muscles, it uses you chest muscles as well.
Anyway, I can see I'm getting nowhere with you and I'm getting irritated so I'm done with this part of the conversation before I begin flaming out of frustration with trying to get you to understand something you have no RL experience with.
Quote from: "jhunter"Quote from: "Ritley"Might hurt your arms, but would it really make you out of breath? I don't think so.
If your arms hurt you aren't going to fight as effectively. You aren't going to move as easily with sore muscles. And pulling a bow using more than your arm muscles, it uses you chest muscles as well.
Anyway, I can see I'm getting nowhere with you and I'm getting irritated so I'm done with this part of the conversation before I begin flaming out of frustration with trying to get you to understand something you have no RL experience with.
But, I do though. I did not get out of breath. You can roleplay your arms hurting, but would it really make a affect on your aiming? no... how about shooting? no.
Quote from: "Raesanos"We do not think that warriors are too powerful and we are not making changes solely to weaken them. My intent when I was choosing the stamina penalty was to try to make it so that for the most part things aren't even that different. People who recklessly overuse their skills will be the only ones at a real disadvantage.
Quote from: "Raesanos"It may not be the traditional balance between classes, but we are trying to achieve a balance here. We want skills to be equally useful to people who want to misuse the code and people who play the way we expect. The benefit of adding some additional strategy to combat is also a factor, though admittedly that has less to do with balance.
Just a couple of things I wanted to bring back into the discussion.
That's nice. It still doesn't make it right in my book. The gameworld's physics have changed and only for one guild. I don't give a rat's ass what the reasoning for it is. It should be made so that all guilds are affected by the same physics.
Like I said, it's like any guild being able to move freely without tiring but suddenly adding stamina points to only one guild limiting their movement. Sure it's realistic, but not for the other guilds that it wasn't added for.
Or suddenly making it so that -any- guild is subject to different physics when interacting with other guilds. This is disregarding magick as it breaks the laws of physics of course.
spawnloser makes some excellent points there - read it jhunter. Bashing and knocking someone over or spin-kicking takes a lot more energy than just the usual fighting.
I tried the slingshot with a pc of mine, but granted, that was more than half a year ago and she had low strength - so maybe that's why it didn't even fire one room away.
About archery: if this comes into pay, the archery loss should be minimal. Shooting doen't make you that tired, seriously, and usually the munition limits this anyway. And yes, I've done this, even today. If you're not that practiced, it takes quite some time to even get and nock the arrow. The pulling and aiming takes three seconds at the most, a lot less if you're practiced I've seen people pulling back, firing and even hitting most of the time in less than one second of drawing back and aiming, so the strain on your arms is short, even moreso the better you get. Your arms would also get used to this with practice.
I wouldn't mind a general stamina loss for all classes that much, but I'd rather see that cooldown implemented. Or maybe some quicker stamina regeneration - if this is combat, then this would only mean being out of breath - and it doesn't take -that- long to regain your breath.[/b]
Quote from: "jhunter"
I notice noone is actually refuting any of my particular points or giving me -any- sort of logical reasoning as to -why- no other guild's stamina should be affected by combat.
Well, I don't see any other guild that has extra abilities that they can use within combat. Assassins have an opener that creates a huge lag delay (first there is the approach and then the combat delay after which is longer than kill's) so I feel that is acceptable. Should backstab take additional stamina? Hmm... possibly it should take into consideration the amount of stamina it would take to walk across the room.
So, if you backstab in the street, it would take no stamina. If you backstab in the wilderness it would take anywhere between 3-8 stamina.
But what other in combat abilities are there? Casting spells? Hmm... maybe a stamina reduction for each spell cast in combat. I think that would be reasonable as well to be honest. It takes some extra concentration to pull off a spell while fighting it out.
So what other in combat abilities are there? We have kick, bash, disarm, spell casting, and... umm... nothing else? Maybe I'm blanking here. I can't think of any other in combat ability.
I would therefore suggest that no one is refuting your point because there aren't any other skills that people can think of where this applies in the same manner.
I pulled out a bunch of posts that where either trolling or arguing about who was trolling and whatnot. I think we can get this conversation back on track, please be nice and think before you post.
Err... yea. If you use those skills, you do something in addition to the usual stuff in combat, right? So it's just fine that you need more stamina for that one that for normal combat.
normal combat doesn't cost anything right now, this might be changed, or this might be not. If this gets implemented, a warrior that uses their skills will still be at a disadvantage stamina-wise when they use their skills, cause they'll be using up a bit more every time they use them. That's still realistic.
Right now, battle doesn't take up any stamina for either of them, but the extra moves cost a bit - of course you could set both of them at a disadvantage, but the under the line, its the same.
I'd rather see the cooldown though - stamina on all classes would really cut down on playability, exspecially for hunter types that take forever to kill somethiong even if they shouldn't and don't regain any stamina outside at all without resting.
If it's not broken, don't fix it - I like things as they are now, stamina loss for disarm/bash/kick or not. If alot more things need stamina now, you change one parameter and need to change many of the others, too, to keep the game playable for everyone.
Quote from: "Raesanos"We do not think that warriors are too powerful and we are not making changes solely to weaken them. My intent when I was choosing the stamina penalty was to try to make it so that for the most part things aren't even that different. People who recklessly overuse their skills will be the only ones at a real disadvantage.
I like this change because it gives uniformity to fighting. One of the biggest ishues about playing a war is how often can I use bash, kick, disarm? This is a great change, I only wish fighting lost stamina too.
Quote from: "marko"Quote from: "jhunter"
I notice noone is actually refuting any of my particular points or giving me -any- sort of logical reasoning as to -why- no other guild's stamina should be affected by combat.
Well, I don't see any other guild that has extra abilities that they can use within combat. Assassins have an opener that creates a huge lag delay (first there is the approach and then the combat delay after which is longer than kill's) so I feel that is acceptable. Should backstab take additional stamina? Hmm... possibly it should take into consideration the amount of stamina it would take to walk across the room.
So, if you backstab in the street, it would take no stamina. If you backstab in the wilderness it would take anywhere between 3-8 stamina.
But what other in combat abilities are there? Casting spells? Hmm... maybe a stamina reduction for each spell cast in combat. I think that would be reasonable as well to be honest. It takes some extra concentration to pull off a spell while fighting it out.
So what other in combat abilities are there? We have kick, bash, disarm, spell casting, and... umm... nothing else? Maybe I'm blanking here. I can't think of any other in combat ability.
I would therefore suggest that no one is refuting your point because there aren't any other skills that people can think of where this applies in the same manner.
I'd like to add something to your post, Marko.
This is NOT a guild penalty it is a penalty that targets 'special combat abilites'.
With that said, warriors are not the only ones with the ability to kick, disarm, or bash, but they are the only ones that can make good use of the skill.
The only problem that people face is the fact that they can not freely use these moves continously. This isn't the way the skills are suppose to be used. Thus, the skill had an penalty attached to it to make players think about using those skills, before they use them in combat.
It really does add a strategic feel to combat. :D
Let me guess, jhunter, your favorite guild is warrior?
Seriously, they're not the only people affected. I played a merchant/thug that used combat skills because he had them. I've played a ranger/thug before too. Subguilds get some of these combat skills that come with stamina loss, and since the stamina loss goes down as you get better, and subguild caps are lower, those that get them as subguild skills are even MORE affected than warriors.
Warriors haven't been nerfed...all that extra effort they put into killing, whirling about and swinging all parts of their body willy nilly, is finally being represented. Mind that rangers are basically a 'wilderness guild' while warriors are a 'city guild.' General stamina loss in combat would be a bad thing, as you're going to see characters die more and more...sooner and sooner...noober and noober. If you want it, though...it had better be somethign representative. 1 point of stamina per attack made seems fair...so warriors, those bad asses that are dual wielding and attacking faster than I could ever hope to? Yeah, you'll get tired EVEN faster. I don't think you want that.
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18475
Raesanos, I think the title of the linked post needs to be edited, because it isn't a penalty that only the warrior guild obtains. Hopefully, it'd help people see that and stop complaining about a certain guild being at a disadvantage.
Quote from: "Yokunama"This is NOT a guild penalty it is a penalty that targets 'special combat abilites'.
With that said, warriors are not the only ones with the ability to kick, disarm, or bash, but they are the only ones that can make good use of the skill.
Warriors are indeed the only class who can disarm or bash.
That would be like saying a new, broad-reaching penalty to spellcasting isn't a magicker guild penalty.
Not having been around nearly as long as some, Cale Knight...your example there of broad changes to spellcasting? Yeah, it's happened before in ways that hurt magickers a lot. Suck it up. Those of us that have played both and will continue to play both will learn to play in a way that doesn't hurt us too badly.
Quote from: "Cale_Knight"Quote from: "Yokunama"This is NOT a guild penalty it is a penalty that targets 'special combat abilites'.
With that said, warriors are not the only ones with the ability to kick, disarm, or bash, but they are the only ones that can make good use of the skill.
Warriors are indeed the only class who can disarm or bash.
That would be like saying a new, broad-reaching penalty to spellcasting isn't a magicker guild penalty.
That doesn't leave out kick. So, warriors are not the only ones suffering. Also, there are ways people can obtain the bash and disarm skills without having the warrior class. :wink:
Quote from: "spawnloser"Not having been around nearly as long as some, Cale Knight...your example there of broad changes to spellcasting? Yeah, it's happened before in ways that hurt magickers a lot. Suck it up.
Uh... that's nice and all, but it had nothing to do with the point I made. Absolutely nothing.
Quote from: "Cale_Knight"Uh... that's nice and all, but it had nothing to do with the point I made. Absolutely nothing.
Really?
Quote from: "Cale_Knight"That would be like saying a new, broad-reaching penalty to spellcasting isn't a magicker guild penalty.
I disagree. I was addressing exactly what I intended to address.
Sometimes things change. Roll with the punches, learn to adapt as people have in the past. I think THIS change will benefit the mud MORE than the changes to spellcasting that have taken place may have.
Is it a realistic addition?
Yes.
Do I like it?
No.
Personally I think this is one of those changes that you either have to have affect across the board (any and every fight and every single special little nifty maneuver saps stamina) or not at all.
This will deter me from playing a warrior in the future. I would probably play a ranger instead and just try to get them all badass since they can become pretty good fighters and also get lots of nifty skills.
It appears that the main arguement for the stamina drain penalty on physical skills is the result of a desire on the part of the Imm Staff for both increased realism and playability.
The increased realism comes from the belief that any of these hard coded skill actions taken during combat would fatigue someone in real life, and therefore should fatigue someone in the game. The playability issue allows for there to be a limit to how many times someone will be able to shoot a bow, kick/disarm/bash an opponent, backstab, throw a knife, etc...
I have absolutely no problem with a penalty, cooldown or combination thereof being added into the game. I don't really agree or understand why that limiting attribute must be linked to a character's ability to move in game rather than a newly formed "melee" attribute more similar to mana. All the elementalists instantly cry 'mana' when people throw out the arguement that mage classes don't have a movement penalty for using their skills. Is casting not physical exhausting? Drawing forth the elements from a plane of fire is less tiring than throwing a kick at somebody? I don't necessarily agree.
Fatigue
I would rather the Imms have implemented a new attribute that effectively becomes the melee classes' equivalent of mana, let's call it Fatigue. Allow skills to take less fatigue at higher skill levels similar to a mage's rise in "power levels" for their spells. Binding the ability to use coded abilities to an attribute like stamina poses questions for me, and perhaps the Imm Staff that have thought this through can comment:
:arrow: Why select a sytem that further favors certain races?
Dwarves, Half-Giants and Muls are already a hardier race than most of the other choices, and this change will make them even more attractive as a selection for the number crunchers, and there will always be more than a few because coded success and survival will be more dependant on these factors than mages, merchants, thieves, etc...
:arrow: Why select a system that seems to hinder certain cultures?
Desert elves don't have the luxury of using a mount while running through the desert, yet they are touted as being quite able and proud of that fact. Seeing a system adopt a penalty to something that would limit their ability more than most because of the environment seems flawed. Why would you not prefer to limit all melee guilds in the same capacity regardless of race and culture? Why would you not want to make a desert elf in the sands, half-giant and human in the city all be able to perform equally as well/poorly in their preferred environment?
It seems to me that the only way to make this even across races and cultures is to create an attribute that is independant of the two and used specifically to control and limit the excess use of one's physical skills.
:arrow: Moving and fighting are much different.
Anyone who has actually fought, whether it be training or real fighting can attest that being able to keep up a high level of physical activity (i.e. fighting) is much more difficult than placing one foot in front of the other. I can fight to the point of exhaustion, where I can barely lift my arms to defend myself, but could still probably walk several miles. My guess is that the people making these changes haven't ever had the opportunity to discover the difference.
It is my opinion that using stamina as the penalizing factor in these changes is a clunky fix. Sort of like using gum to adhere two pieces because you didn't have any glue handy. Yes, it works. Yes, it accomplishes an end result that is acceptable, but it's probably not the best or most appropriate change to make to achieve the goals in mind.
-LoD
My only complaint with the fatigue idea is that I don't want to have to add anything to my prompt. :(
That aside, it's a pretty rad idea.
LoD>
Are you suggesting a seperate stat (say "Combat Moves Stat") that will allow a certain number of combat moves per tick rather than basing it all off stamina? Essentially two seperate stamina scores?
If so, I find this an interesting idea. If not, then I'm suggesting it.
:-D
The meter is 'Stamina' not movement. There is coded precedent where doing taxing physical things have taken stamina points, and thats why we went with it.
And for what it's worth, I've announced that the stamina drain has been added to sap, backstab and subdue. Future changes will be evaluated based on the outcome of this round of testing.
Quote from: "LoD"It is my opinion that using stamina as the penalizing factor in these changes is a clunky fix. Sort of like using gum to adhere two pieces because you didn't have any glue handy. Yes, it works. Yes, it accomplishes an end result that is acceptable, but it's probably not the best or most appropriate change to make to achieve the goals in mind.
You're damned right. I'd rather see something put in more like you are saying than see this poorly chosen solution to a very -minor- issue. This fix is poor game design IMO. It's the first time -anything- has been done that I think is an absolutely horrible idea from the staff's end.
Beings on Zalanthas have attributes that help determine how they interact with the world, for the -most- part only two types are being affected in such a way as to make one of those attributes -far- more important to them than any other unrealistically.
D-elf warriors are the ones being most severely hit by this to it being very detrimental to them IMO. I'm not saying that warriors have been hit to the point where they are unplayable but I think there were other possible solutions that would've been much better design than this current fix.
I don't see a stun penalty being added to use of the haggle skill, crafting skills, magick, pick, steal...etc....to help keep people from spamming those and -not- added to the combat skills effected by stamina drain. Why not? It would be similar to the effects of mental stress on people doing such activities so it would be realistic. (This is just the closest example I could think of.)
I don't think it's right to give certain groups a double-hit on one statistic and not give the same double-hit on a statistic to others. Movement points now count for much more on a warrior pc than any other.
Quote from: "moab"LoD>
Are you suggesting a seperate stat (say "Combat Moves Stat") that will allow a certain number of combat moves per tick rather than basing it all off stamina? Essentially two seperate stamina scores?
Yes, the creation of a new stat. The easiest thing to do would be to keep stamina the same and create a new attribute that simply represented the ability to move. The other solution would be to limit stamina's effect on one's ability to move. The Imm Staff may feel that the two are interchangeable, though I think "realism" would tell a different story.
Others have suggsted something similiar in allowing characters to choose a rate of travel (i.e. crawl, walk, march, sprint) and have each level require a corresponding amount of stamina.
Crawl/Trudge= 0, Walk= 3, Run = 7
Allow someone to Crawl/Trudge without any movement loss at all with appropriate messages and time delays "before" the move is made. Walk and Run would operate normally. This would perhaps remove some of the sting from combat subtracting stamina if one was still able to move, albeit slowly, to a water source, shelter, gates, etc...
Quote from: "Morgenes"The meter is 'Stamina' not movement. There is coded precedent where doing taxing physical things have taken stamina points, and thats why we went with it.
I understand why you would chose stamina, especially considering that to do otherwise would mean a lot more coding. And ultimately it may not cause such a problem as people, perhaps myself included, seem to suggest. Perhaps a subtle change to the movement code with regards to stamina would also be in order.
I suppose my point is directed most closely toward those who claim there is some kind of "realism" factor in this change, when it is not necessarily realistic to link the ability to kick/bash/disarm/subdue with someone's ability to walk. Armies have fought in the past for many years and a soldiers' level of endurance was such that it could withstand a skirmish/fight followed directly by a long march. I might not be able to swing across a set of monkey bars, or haul my body weight out of some water, but I'm fairly certain that I could push myself to walk.
It just seems that there is a better solution waiting in the wings to achieve what you want; increased playability (less spamming) and more realism (fatigue from physical skill use).
-LoD
Quote from: "LoD":arrow: Why select a sytem that further favors certain races?
Dwarves, Half-Giants and Muls are already a hardier race than most of the other choices, and this change will make them even more attractive as a selection for the number crunchers, and there will always be more than a few because coded success and survival will be more dependant on these factors than mages, merchants, thieves, etc...
LoD, I've never had a dwarf or mul with more 'movement points' than my humans. In fact, my humans always seem to have had more. Since we'll be using those 'movement points' up, I really think humans and half-elves would have the advantage there.
Quote from: "LoD":arrow: Why select a system that seems to hinder certain cultures?
Desert elves don't have the luxury of using a mount while running through the desert, yet they are touted as being quite able and proud of that fact. Seeing a system adopt a penalty to something that would limit their ability more than most because of the environment seems flawed. Why would you not prefer to limit all melee guilds in the same capacity regardless of race and culture? Why would you not want to make a desert elf in the sands, half-giant and human in the city all be able to perform equally as well/poorly in their preferred environment?
I'd campaign for D-elf's Stamina to return to its old levels.
Quote from: "LoD":arrow: Moving and fighting are much different.
Anyone who has actually fought, whether it be training or real fighting can attest that being able to keep up a high level of physical activity (i.e. fighting) is much more difficult than placing one foot in front of the other. I can fight to the point of exhaustion, where I can barely lift my arms to defend myself, but could still probably walk several miles. My guess is that the people making these changes haven't ever had the opportunity to discover the difference.
Man, I seriously disagree with your entire line of defense here. I disagree from pretty much personal experience. I have worked myself until my arms and legs are sore as hell, then had to walk home because I had no car. I made it about half-a-mile and sat down and didn't get back up for a good while, because my legs were wobbly. I'll concede the point of walking being easier, but with a pack on your back? With swords dangling all off of you? Armor? Nah. And truthfully, your walk lag should be even
slower[/b] than it is now, when you're tired.
Any fatigue should unquestionably be attached to lose of Stamina.
Boy, I hate disagreeing with people I respect.
Battles on Armageddon are nothing like real life battles. Real life battles are over and done with by the time we get to round six. Zalanthian battles are made to wear you out.
Quote from: "7DV"Man, I seriously disagree with your entire line of defense here. I disagree from pretty much personal experience. I have worked myself until my arms and legs are sore as hell, then had to walk home because I had no car. I made it about half-a-mile and sat down and didn't get back up for a good while, because my legs were wobbly.
I'll have to agree with his line of defense -from- personal experience. I've worked twelve hour days in a desert doing construction work and some days I had to take a few mile walk home. I didn't have to stop -and- I smoke.
Hhhmmm. Maybe I'm just a bitch.
Heh.
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"Hhhmmm. Maybe I'm just a bitch.
Heh.
Naw, you're not a bitch Vemonz...kind of a dirty 'rinth whore...but not a bitch. You're alright man. :P
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"Quote from: "LoD":arrow: Moving and fighting are much different.
Man, I seriously disagree with your entire line of defense here. I disagree from pretty much personal experience. I have worked myself until my arms and legs are sore as hell, then had to walk home because I had no car. I made it about half-a-mile and sat down and didn't get back up for a good while, because my legs were wobbly. I'll concede the point of walking being easier, but with a pack on your back? With swords dangling all off of you? Armor? Nah. And truthfully, your walk lag should be even slower[/b] than it is now, when you're tired.
Any fatigue should unquestionably be attached to lose of Stamina.
If that were the case, then every military campaign ever designed before the invention of the car likely would've failed miserably. There is a link between fatigue and combat effectiveness in RL and now in game. My contention is not that such a link doesn't exist, but that the attribute "stamina" isn't designed well enough to shoulder the burden of governing every type of physical activity in the game.
I'm sure anyone in the armed forces would be able to comment on being made to run/march (with gear) after grueling levels of physical exercise to the point where movement is almost subconscious. Zalanthan people that have adopted the profession of a warrior will have a much higher level of physical fitness than any of us will ever dream of having, which is why I have the difficulty accepting stamina as a catch-all attribute that gauges a life-or-death battle and walking along a road by the same meter.
I honestly don't think this new change will make life that much harder for anyone besides the desert elves, but that doesn't mean there aren't better solution to be discussed.
-LoD
i haven't caught up on this thread, but it wouldn't hurt to split "stamina" into "fatigue" and "movement" points if we're going to continue down this path of "stamina hits for most commands."
Quote from: "Agent_137"i haven't caught up on this thread, but it wouldn't hurt to split "stamina" into "fatigue" and "movement" points if we're going to continue down this path of "stamina hits for most commands."
I'll say this one more time, and then I'm done with this. Stamina is your level of physical exhaustion. We are not adding a separate movement points counter, or a separate combat point counter. Stamina is what we've got, and that's what we're going to use.
Feel free to argue to you're blue in the face about this, however unless there's a major turnover in the staff of the game, we will not be implementing this idea.
Then I believe that if more things are going to be taking from stamina, the bar needs to be raised for the amount of stamina things get. The average stamina pts needs to be higher then IMO. You keep adding more and more things taking out of stamina without raising the bar, since originally all that was taken out of it was movement, it's going to become a real problem.
As already starting to be displayed by the huge hinderance I see it being to a d-elf warrior. The path that we're going down is the path to doom if no other changes are made to correct it before it gets worse.
I'm reading Jhunters post and thinking there might be some balance issues with raising the bar. In a sense I agree with him, but the staff did clearly state part of the motivation here was to prevent people from spamming certain skills.
Raising the bar would sort of defeat that purpose. I might also add that not all classes will likely ever need to worry too much about these changes. I can't imagine a merchant, for instance, aside from crafting, does a whole lot that requires their stanima.
I kind of see where Jhunter is coming from, but I think right now this hasn't been around long enough for any of us to really know the effects it will have on the game.
How about we just see how it goes for a while (month) with the current changes before we assume THE GAME IS GOING TO HELL.
I don't need that long to assess it. I know what it -was- like. And I know what the changes -are-. It's not rocket science. A month from now, if no other changes are made that affect this, it's still going to be the same as it is now. I don't need an entire month to mull it over. Without any other changes being made, my thoughts will be exactly the same in a month as they are now.
Quote from: "UnderSeven"...I think right now this hasn't been around long enough for any of us to really know the effects it will have on the game.
My point exactly. And the Staff have already declared that they will adjust as they see need to. They have also stated that more than just warrior skills will be effected.
I personally could see the following:
scan = stun
hunt = stun (Hunt assumes you are carefully going over things here)
forage = one more stamina point for a total of two
listen = stun (likely one per RL minute)
sneak = stamina (for the simple fact that sneaking takes work)
hide = stamina (As above, it takes work to do this)
many moreI'm also personally of the opinion that magick should take stun and stamina equally. That's mental processes and physical exertion. Mana shouldn't even be a stat in this game. And yes, I've played a magicker so please, nobody tell me I'm trying to screw over magickers now.
Crafting of any physical kind (such as weaving, not cooking) should take stamina. There's concentration required.
Then why ask for our opinions on this? I find it rather cruel to ask the players what we think about this code change, and then throw it back in our faces when we discuss it and suggest fixes/changes that we think might be better. We as players don't expect our suggestions to come to fruition necessarily, but it would be nice to feel that our thoughts were at least appreciated and considered.
I think LoD had an interesting idea, and I'm wondering if his/her main point goes back to the issue of not being able to flee from a fight because you've lost your stam using kick/bash/etc. through the course of the fight. This seems silly to me. You might not be able to get very far, but if it means your life, I would think that you could drag your ass a short distance to escape. I also agree that d-elf/warriors are going to feel the brunt of this more than anyone else.
A situation to consider:
Bob has 135 stam points total. Bob's been foraging for rocks in a cave for a little while so Bob's down to 105 stam points. Bob's a careful man, however and has not gone too far from home (say 5 rooms), and has decided its time to sit down for a rest. Just as he's about to do so, Joe steps in, mouth foaming and rushes in at Bob. Bob happens to be a warrior, so he decides to fight Joe thinking that maybe he can take Joe down. Bob throws a few kicks, a few bashes, drops down to about 80 stam. The fight slowly begins to turn for the worse for Bob, and he decides to make a mad dash for it. Fails his flee twice, (which I'm presuming drops your stam, but I could be wrong), is now at 70 stam. He escapes, but is running now from the flee. He gets two rooms closer to home (though he really ran 4 rooms because flee sent him in the wrong direction initially, so he had to backtrack) and is now at 55 stam when Joe catches up with him. He tries to flee again, fails again and escapes with 45 stam, running the wrong direction again. Now one room from home and safety, Bob is at 20 stam when Joe catches up with him again. He tries to flee again, but fails, losing all stam. Now careful Bob is dead Bob, even though he only threw out a handful of kicks and bashes when he had a reasonable amount of stam to believe it was safe to try such things.
Some will say Bob should've never gone to look for rocks. Others will say Bob should've practiced his flee more before willingly taking on Joe. I will weep for Bob, and probably never play a warrior again.
I will say Bob should have immediately run from a fight he wasn't sure he could win.
Stop trying to be a hero. In Zalanthas, heros don't win, they die.
Man, I have to say Venomz if you had your way about how everything in this game was going to work I wouldn't be playing anymore. No offense or anything but it would just get so difficult and overcomplicated that I wouldn't enjoy it at all.
Thus implying you should flee from everything and never, ever, ever get into any fights because you could die. That's silly.
No, not implying that at all.
If you want to take everything to black and white extremes, feel free to do so, but you'll continue missing the point.
Skeetdaddle, from the Staff point of view, I don't think it's the discussion and suggestion that have occured, but rather the semi-hostile tone that the thread has taken. Players are seriously offended by the changes, and instead of just talking about it and suggesting things, some of us have become belligerent about our opinion.
If we watch the tone of our posts, I'm sure the Staff will be much more conceding when discussing this subject.
Tell me then, exactly how Bob would've known before getting into the fight with Joe whether or not he could take on Joe?
Quote from: "jhunter"Man, I have to say Venomz if you had your way about how everything in this game was going to work I wouldn't be playing anymore. No offense or anything but it would just get so difficult and overcomplicated that I wouldn't enjoy it at all.
I'd iron it out. I don't think it would get much more complicated from your side, truthfully. I'd take input, consider it, hash it out, and then either leave it be because your argument was invalid, or modify it so that you could be happy, or take it out altogether because it was bad for the game.
Most of the things I've ever suggested don't really overcomplicate anything from your side. There's more reinforcement for IC realities, but there's also more room for code-assisted roleplay. For instance, when I suggested coded styles, it gave messages that you could turn off altogether from your side. It had advantages and disadvantages, all coded. Yet all the player had to do was type
kill joe,
change cstyle allanaki, and/or
cstyle on/cstyle off.
Not complicated at all.
By the way, to counter this loose of stamina, I'd strongly suggest letting us regain stamina while stand up at a rate of 1-5 points per RL minute. If I were Staff, I'd do it.
:shock: :lol:
Quote from: "Halaster"How about we just see how it goes for a while (month) with the current changes before we assume THE GAME IS GOING TO HELL.
I agree. I really don't think this is going to be a huge problem for most.
That said, this is a discussion board and I'd expect a certain amount of nervous chatter ranging from general approval to constructive criticism to hate laced generalizations about probably the largest change warriors and other melee classes have seen in a long while. The last big change affecting more than one melee class would have been those made to the regeneration rates, but even then it didn't change as much as lessen.
This is something completely new and different from what every single player has known since the beginning of the MUD. The only thing comparable is when stamina loss was added to an attempt to flee from a subdued position.
So, is it worth waiting to see how it affects gameplay in a live environment before getting too carried away? Of course.
But some people will always think change = HELL!
-LoD
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"Quote from: "jhunter"Man, I have to say Venomz if you had your way about how everything in this game was going to work I wouldn't be playing anymore. No offense or anything but it would just get so difficult and overcomplicated that I wouldn't enjoy it at all.
I'd iron it out. I don't think it would get much more complicated from your side, truthfully. I'd take input, consider it, hash it out, and then either leave it be because your argument was invalid, or modify it so that you could be happy, or take it out altogether because it was bad for the game.
Most of the things I've ever suggested don't really overcomplicate anything from your side. There's more reinforcement for IC realities, but there's also more room for code-assisted roleplay. For instance, when I suggested coded styles, it gave messages that you could turn off altogether from your side. It had advantages and disadvantages, all coded. Yet all the player had to do was type kill joe, change cstyle allanaki, and/or cstyle on/cstyle off.
Not complicated at all.
By the way, to counter this loose of stamina, I'd strongly suggest letting us regain stamina while stand up at a rate of 1-5 points per RL minute. If I were Staff, I'd do it.
:shock: :lol:
I guess I just mostly meant that I liked the amount of "coded" things vs "rp'd" things as it was. You appear to want alot more things hard-coded instead of open to interpretation. The more coded some things get the less I enjoy it and the more I lose interest. I like having a bit more choices in how I feel like rp'ing something with my character instead of having the game decide it all for me.
Quote from: "skeetdaddle"Tell me then, exactly how Bob would've known before getting into the fight with Joe whether or not he could take on Joe?
It wasn't my intent to get drawn into an argument, but I will answer your question:
Bob couldn't have known he could take Joe or not. That's why he should have done one of two things: run immediately, or conserve his energy in case he had to run (i.e. not wasted it on kicks and bashes). If the fight was decisively his, then it would be reasonable for him to think he could defend himself against Joe and open up a real can of whoop-ass.
Remember that in Zalanthas, life is uncertain and precious. It's all you have. An average zalanthan is going to put survival above all else. Entering a fight you aren't sure you can win is either a mark of extreme confidence in your abilities, desperation, or suicide. A zalanthan would want numbers on his/her side before entering into the unknown (i.e. raiders working in groups, militia banding together). A zalanthan attacked alone out in the wastes would probably not think "hm, maybe I can take him with only a couple wounds". A zalanthan would think "oh, shit, I'd better get out of here before I'm seriously hurt and keep an eye out for this fuck in case I've ever got the advantage over him".
Simply put, caution and intelligence regarding the fights you get in or stay in are the only way to survive for a lengthy amount of time, and a zalanthan would probably realize this.
Quote from: "Delirium"Quote from: "skeetdaddle"Tell me then, exactly how Bob would've known before getting into the fight with Joe whether or not he could take on Joe?
It wasn't my intent to get drawn into an argument, but I will answer your question:
Bob couldn't have known he could take Joe or not. That's why he should have done one of two things: run immediately, or conserve his energy in case he had to run (i.e. not wasted it on kicks and bashes). If the fight was decisively his, then it would be reasonable for him to think he could defend himself against Joe and open up a real can of whoop-ass.
Remember that in Zalanthas, life is uncertain and precious. It's all you have. An average zalanthan is going to put survival above all else. Entering a fight you aren't sure you can win is either a mark of extreme confidence in your abilities, desperation, or suicide. A zalanthan would want numbers on his/her side before entering into the unknown (i.e. raiders working in groups, militia banding together). A zalanthan attacked alone out in the wastes would probably not think "hm, maybe I can take him with only a couple wounds". A zalanthan would think "oh, shit, I'd better get out of here before I'm seriously hurt and keep an eye out for this fuck in case I've ever got the advantage over him".
Simply put, caution and intelligence regarding the fights you get in or stay in are the only way to survive for a lengthy amount of time, and a zalanthan would probably realize this.
Delirium you are sounding to me too that you are saying that the only option is to run every time. How would he have known if he could beat him or not if he didn't try to use -everything- in his arsenal to win? (Kick, bash, disarm)
If he wasn't fighting to his fullest potential then he would have no way of knowing if he could've won the fight or not.
That's like saying he shouldn't have pulled out his gun until he knew he could beat him without it. :roll:
To contribute to Delirium's point; you never know who or what you're going to survive AFTER this fight. So even taking a couple of minor wounds finishing this fight off might increase your risk of death later. A wise individual stays clear of fights they don't need to participate in.
-- X
I see the point. I was tyring to give an example of a grey area, where the set-up seemed reasonable that a player might think they had plenty of stam to try their skills, but end up dying for it. The whole scenario is to show, actually, that you (Delirium) are perfectly right. Bob probably should've fled right away and not attempted a single kick, bash, or disarm. This is because of the new code. This is why I don't like it. You now have to be either super prepared and in just the right situation to practice your skills as a warrior, or not use them at all for fear of it costing you greatly in the end. Personally, this disuades me from wanting to play a warrior, since to be safe to practice my abilities I would likely be forced to join a house, or else have to be ridiculously cautious (even more so than is currently the case).
Quote from: "Xygax"To contribute to Delirium's point; you never know who or what you're going to survive AFTER this fight. So even taking a couple of minor wounds finishing this fight off might increase your risk of death later. A wise individual stays clear of fights they don't need to participate in.
-- X
Our pcs are supposed to have flaws aren't they? I was always under the impression that this is so. Are you telling me that they need all be so wise that they stay clear of every fight?
Quote from: "jhunter"I guess I just mostly meant that I liked the amount of "coded" things vs "rp'd" things as it was. You appear to want alot more things hard-coded instead of open to interpretation. The more coded some things get the less I enjoy it and the more I lose interest. I like having a bit more choices in how I feel like rp'ing something with my character instead of having the game decide it all for me.
This is a delicate thing to balance, and isn't always an easy thing to do. There are as many different muds out there as there are for this very reason. I tend on the same track as Venomz, which is why I'm a coder, I like seeing the world come to life through the code. Obviously, there are plenty who disagree.
The argument that stamina shouldn't drain for getting tired would imply that we shouldn't drain mana to cast spells (let me RP how many spell points I have), and then on to how much damage an attack takes, and then if you hit or not (I shot you! No you didn't!). I know this is a bit of an extreme, but it follows the same logical path. There is a type of online game for those wishing that experience, it's called a MUSH.
As for staff hostility on this subject, I am simply stating facts. We do listen to you guys, and we have said that we are going to be working on expanding and tweaking this based on how play goes. We understand you're upset by these changes, but we think they're the way we want to head. As Halaster stated before, give it a rest and see how things go.
Quite a few years ago a new type of counter was added to the game that had equal amounts of 'discussion' about the 'end of days' for Armageddon, that the game was going down hill and would be completely unplayable. That counter was called 'stun'. How many of you would really rather have psionics drain stamina again? Or have no difference between being hit by a bludgeoning weapon vs. a slashing weapon.
These changes are going in for a reason, and not just to stop skill spamming. Combat has needed an overhaul for awhile, and this is just the first stages. We are expecting you guys to think more about combat, and when to get out of combat. And yes, in partial answer to other threads, we will be revising the NPC AI to take this into account as well.
I believe Xygax is reinforcing the fact that Zalanthas is very harsh, death is around every corner, and yes, as a PC you lived long enough to get to adulthood. If your approach to that brutal world is violence, without taking proper precautions, be it in a dark alley, or the sands and rocks of the waste, you'll soon meet your end likewise.
Quote from: "jhunter"Our pcs are supposed to have flaws aren't they? I was always under the impression that this is so. Are you telling me that they need all be so wise that they stay clear of every fight?
Being flawed and being foolish are too different things. I invite you to explore both in the roleplay of your characters, but my guess is that the foolish ones won't live as long.
-- X
Quote from: "skeetdaddle"... Bob probably should've fled right away and not attempted a single kick, bash, or disarm. This is because of the new code. This is why I don't like it. You now have to be either super prepared and in just the right situation to practice your skills as a warrior, or not use them at all for fear of it costing you greatly in the end...
To be honest, when I was playing a warrior this was exactly how I would enter into a fight. I would _not_ kick, bash, or disarm until I had a feel for the relative skill of my opponent. Why? Because of the wait time after doing these skills or, in the case of bash, failing it and getting stuck on the ground.
This stamina change would not impact my style of playing a warrior at all. I guess that's why I don't think it's a huge thing and rather like it. I think it adds a little more strategic thought to the whole process especially since I've encountered far more warriors than I wish to count who spam disarmed my chars.
I'm holding out to see spell casting in combat drain stamina as well to make things more even. Oh, and invisibility being broken by failed spells and fading away when a caster is actually casting (after all, we see the magick around "someone" and we hear their voice - we should be allowed to target them when that is happening - it's only for a second or two - in essence turn them into a blur that is attackable).
Ummm...isn't foolishness a flaw?
Quote from: "Morgenes"We are expecting you guys to think more about combat, and when to get out of combat.
Except that this change pretty much -only- makes those of the warrior guild -have- to think more about combat, and when to get out of combat. The others, (except for the -few- using a subguild that gives them kick) don't have to change anything about how they deal with melee.
I can see the reasoning behind the code. I think it's good. Fighting is hard, it wears you out, sure. The thing I don't like about this change is that just plain ol' fighting doesn't wear you out. Only the fancy maneuvers do. I think if the idea is for more realism, then just fighting should make you tired too.
Does anyone here participate in the Society for Creative Anachronism? This is an international group that recreates all things medeival. They dress in real armor (plate mail, chain, etc.) and beat the crap out of eachother with padded swords. I tried this once and was dead tired just from swinging a padded sword around after 15 minutes. The people that had been doing this for years were dripping with sweat after a half an hour. And this was without kicking and bashing and disarming eachother. I would be all for this code change, as long as everyone's stam dropped when in combat, fancy moves or no. I also think to balance this, it would be nice to see some stam regen while standing still. You -can- catch your breath while standing, it's just nicer on the knees to do it sitting down.
Quote from: "skeetdaddle"I can see the reasoning behind the code. I think it's good. Fighting is hard, it wears you out, sure. The thing I don't like about this change is that just plain ol' fighting doesn't wear you out. Only the fancy maneuvers do. I think if the idea is for more realism, then just fighting should make you tired too.
Edited to include jhunter's quote:
Quote from: "jhunter"
Except that this change pretty much -only- makes those of the warrior guild -have- to think more about combat, and when to get out of combat. The others, (except for the -few- using a subguild that gives them kick) don't have to change anything about how they deal with melee.
To both of you, I say:
We aren't done yet.
Quote from: "Morgenes"Quote from: "skeetdaddle"I can see the reasoning behind the code. I think it's good. Fighting is hard, it wears you out, sure. The thing I don't like about this change is that just plain ol' fighting doesn't wear you out. Only the fancy maneuvers do. I think if the idea is for more realism, then just fighting should make you tired too.
We aren't done yet.
Still, I think it would've been better to come up with a plan to lay it all across the board instead of mostly hitting one guild first without getting the others.
Quote from: "jhunter"Still, I think it would've been better to come up with a plan to lay it all across the board instead of mostly hitting one guild first without getting the others.
Who says we didn't have a plan? Believe me, I have been thinking about doing this for a long time.
Quote from: "jhunter"Still, I think it would've been better to come up with a plan to lay it all across the board instead of mostly hitting one guild first without getting the others.
As I've mentioned before, this stamina drain does not hit one class only.:wink:
Quote from: "skeetdaddle"... Bob probably should've fled right away and not attempted a single kick, bash, or disarm. This is because of the new code. This is why I don't like it. You now have to be either super prepared and in just the right situation to practice your skills as a warrior, or not use them at all for fear of it costing you greatly in the end...
You do not have to be prepared, if you are going to play combative character, but a bit more cautious about situations and using your speacial combat moves. Also, add -stragety- to your gameplay.
Quote from: "Raesanos"People who recklessly overuse their skills will be the only ones at a real disadvantage.
Quote from: "jhunter"Still, I think it would've been better to come up with a plan to lay it all across the board instead of mostly hitting one guild first without getting the others.
J -- stop poking Morg with a stick, he's going to get surly. As they've said, there has been a lot of planning and thought put behind these changes that are going to play out. If changes are warranted, they will be made. Hounding the Imms about their choice to put it into the game isn't going to change anything except perhaps their perceptions of your criticism.
Lots of data to collect yet. Give it some time and see how it plays out.
-LoD
This post and similar ones are not indicative of the entire playerbase's
reaction to the new code. It's just a handful of the same people
objecting who have done so from the very beginning. Guys, no matter
how much you write about this topic, it isn't going to be changing. The
imms want this in place, some of your fellow players have given a
wholehearted thumbs up.
You're beating a dead horse. Could someone please lock this thread?
Quote from: "Morgenes"Quote from: "jhunter"Still, I think it would've been better to come up with a plan to lay it all across the board instead of mostly hitting one guild first without getting the others.
Who says we didn't have a plan? Believe me, I have been thinking about doing this for a long time.
Scary.
Not just warriors are getting 'screwed' as some think. Keep reading.
Quote from: "Morgenes"Quote from: "skeetdaddle"I can see the reasoning behind the code. I think it's good. Fighting is hard, it wears you out, sure. The thing I don't like about this change is that just plain ol' fighting doesn't wear you out. Only the fancy maneuvers do. I think if the idea is for more realism, then just fighting should make you tired too.
Edited to include jhunter's quote:
Quote from: "jhunter"
Except that this change pretty much -only- makes those of the warrior guild -have- to think more about combat, and when to get out of combat. The others, (except for the -few- using a subguild that gives them kick) don't have to change anything about how they deal with melee.
To both of you, I say:
We aren't done yet.
I just want to let you guys know, I really like what you're doing with the skills. I think it is inevitable that you will run into people who disagree at first because the changes are so drastic, but they are essential and long-awaited on my part. I look forward to seeing more of them. I always felt like stamina should play a stronger role in combat. I'd actually like to see fighting use up stamina too, or have a chance to use up stamina depending on the weapons weight.
Quote from: "Yokunama"Quote from: "jhunter"Still, I think it would've been better to come up with a plan to lay it all across the board instead of mostly hitting one guild first without getting the others.
As I've mentioned before, this stamina drain does not hit one class only.:wink:
Quote from: "skeetdaddle"... Bob probably should've fled right away and not attempted a single kick, bash, or disarm. This is because of the new code. This is why I don't like it. You now have to be either super prepared and in just the right situation to practice your skills as a warrior, or not use them at all for fear of it costing you greatly in the end...
You do not have to be prepared, if you are going to play combative character, but a bit more cautious about situations and using your speacial combat moves. Also, add -stragety- to your gameplay.
Quote from: "Raesanos"People who recklessly overuse their skills will be the only ones at a real disadvantage.
Take note of the underlined part in bold text. Your point is a very very very miniscule point. So small that it is almost completely irrelevant to the issue. The other guilds don't have -any- of those skills to use in melee without the addition of a subguild that includes -kick- and only kick. The others would be a special application and would be pretty few and far between in their existance.
You don't have to abuse it for it you use your stamina, that is still a disadvantage to those who didn't abuse it IMO.
Quote from: "LoD"J -- stop poking Morg with a stick, he's going to get surly. As they've said, there has been a lot of planning and thought put behind these changes that are going to play out. If changes are warranted, they will be made. Hounding the Imms about their choice to put it into the game isn't going to change anything except perhaps their perceptions of your criticism.
Lots of data to collect yet. Give it some time and see how it plays out.
-LoD
All I was saying is that I'm not happy about it and I've given many reasons for it. Many reasons that are realistic reasons of why it shouldn't be done the way it is. There are even more reasons but I would have to go into numbers and I cannot do that here. There are also other reasons but I can't go into the skills and abilities of certain guilds either. I'm merely voicing the ones that I'm allowed to here.
It hasn't been my intentions to come across as unappreciative of the staff's efforts to improve the game. I feel however, that this improves it in -one- minor way at the expense of others.
As far as give it time, I don't really have any choice in the matter except to refuse to play the guild until it is balanced back out again.
Quote from: "Morgenes"Who says we didn't have a plan? Believe me, I have been thinking about doing this for a long time.
That's not what I meant exactly Morg. What I mean is that I think it would've been better to implement a standard across the board for -all- guilds instead of putting in the change for one first and doing it a piece at a time. Currently it is left unrealistic and unbalanced until the rest of the changes go in. As someone else said and I agree as well, if stamina is going to be a factor in melee combat it should be a factor in melee for -everyone- regardless of guild.
And no, I'm not trying to be a jerk or unappreciative of the efforts but when nothing has been done to give a stamina drain at all to the other -main- guilds when in -melee- it seems much more that it was put in place to keep the twinks from spamming them than to add realism.
Now, if I were to ever play a warrior again I'd have to worry about stamina with the guild in melee where as nothing has changed for the others -when in melee-.
If it is going to be implemented to make anyone worry about stamina in melee it should be that -everyone- has to worry about it.
Now, I understand that you say you aren't done yet. Again, all I was stating was that I think it would've made more sense to hold off on it until you had a system (regarding melee) to put into place for -all- guilds at the -same- time.
It's not the addition in itself that I don't like, in fact I think it's a cool idea to make stamina count when in melee and to make people have to fight smarter. If people were spamming them and twinking the skills, then great this will help with that. (Although I personally haven't seen it enough to make me think that it was a problem bad enough to merit a code change specifically to stop it.) But, it should affect -everyone- while they are in melee and not mainly the warrior guild.
This discussion is going nowhere.
The pros and cons have been bludgeoned with the ease of replies.
Locking.