For a low-magick world, there sure is a lot of magick being used around. Just curious how everyone feels about this. Are too many players playing magickers over and over? Should we cap the amount of magickers in game? Should magickers be forced to wear the gem more often instead of being allowed to just roam around.
I see this problem much like the mul issue that came up long ago. It seems I can't make a lone hunter nowadays without running into a defiler or magicker within the first week of adventure.
Thoughts?
-RM
It's a phase. There is always someone complaining about too many magickers, or too many half-elves, or too many Kuracis, and such.
Quote from: "Marauder Moe"It's a phase. There is always someone complaining about too many magickers, or too many half-elves, or too many Kuracis, and such.
That's because there always are too many half-elves, magickers, and Kuraci.
If there are too many ______ the solution is to kill them. ;)
Quote from: "Vanth"If there are too many ______ the solution is to kill them. ;)
HEAR HEAR!
I have not been playing outside of the cities and been an antisocial one at that, and have not been playing too intensely, so I don't get to see any people at all, let alone if they are magickers or what not.
But like six months or so ago, when I was spending all my time on arm, there were a lot of magickers around. It was like, you would trip over a magicker if you just walked around no matter what part of zalanthas you are on. And it was not just for a short time, it stayed like that for quite a long time as far as I can remember.
Back then I would love a change to put down a limit over the number of magickers. If it is again so, I again vote for such a change.
Compared to some games, even with a largish population of magickers at current, we are still a low-magic game. How many people are running around with magical gear? In many games, the answer is, "Everyone." In Arm, the answer is almost always, "Wait, someone's got magickal gear? Ooooh."
Quote from: "spawnloser""Wait, someone's got magickal gear? Ooooh."
OOoooh. Who?
I always thought "low magick" meant that the magick and schools of it, were highly unrefined and primal. So unlike other settings, where there are 40 different schools of magic, ranging from Wizardry to Necromancy, and everything in between. Zalanthases magick is basic, mostly unexplored, and hard to use.
So they can't mutter words and build towers, or teach an whole army how to toss fireballs. In other settings, Mage is a profession, not a curse.
Not to mention VNPC population is freaking huge, meeting three magickers in the desert is just bad luck. Comparing that to the worlds population, I bet a good solid 1% are magick capable and even fewer know about it.
As for the player base? People play the game to have fun, so they are going to do what they think is fun. Personally I don't understand why any one is concerned.
No one works 9 to 5, 5 days a week, comes home, and then wants to log on and be a kankshit pusher or tavern jizz mopper. They want adventure and magick and shit. People don't want to go from one boring life to another or at lest I don't. The player base is always going to be a little extraordinary then the general populace and I don't see anything wrong with that and there should be nothing worng with that.
Quote from: "Random Newbie Kank"As for the player base? People play the game to have fun, so they are going to do what they think is fun. Personally I don't understand why any one is concerned.
No one works 9 to 5, 5 days a week, comes home, and then wants to log on and be a kankshit pusher or tavern jizz mopper. They want adventure and magick and shit. People don't want to go from one boring life to another or at lest I don't. The player base is always going to be a little extraordinary then the general populace and I don't see anything wrong with that and there should be nothing worng with that.
Words well said. I for one enjoy and look forward to the tension a well played magicker provides.
We know when you are sleeping, we know when you're awake, we
know when you're on the North Road so I say a word and you will bake!
Maybe it's not so much that there are so many magickers but rather the
magickers that are around, get around? That's what I think, anyways.
Muahahahahaha,
- Magicker Kank
Magickal currents swirl around the brown kank.
The brown kank utters an incantation.
The brown kank flashes violently, then disappears in a haze of smoke.
Quote from: "Random Newbie Kank"As for the player base? People play the game to have fun, so they are going to do what they think is fun. Personally I don't understand why any one is concerned.
No one works 9 to 5, 5 days a week, comes home, and then wants to log on and be a kankshit pusher or tavern jizz mopper. They want adventure and magick and shit. People don't want to go from one boring life to another or at lest I don't. The player base is always going to be a little extraordinary then the general populace and I don't see anything wrong with that and there should be nothing worng with that.
That's the problem. You can have fun and adventure and not be a magick-user. Whatever happened to good old fashioned rangers, warriors and the occasional bard-merchant travelling with you. Now you pretty much have to have magickers travel with you, or you're going to be lunch for people who do. I remember the world being far less magick-saturated when I was playing back in the day.
Pretty much encountering someone casting was a 1/100 shot. Now if I enter a room with a pillar I'm thinking "oh shit, am I going to accidentally see Someone casting?" That's just my thought.
Quote from: "RunningMountain"
That's the problem. You can have fun and adventure and not be a magick-user. Whatever happened to good old fashioned rangers, warriors and the occasional bard-merchant travelling with you.
Seriously. If someone is a mage, and that means they're more powerful than you, that's the breaks. There are PLENTY of warriors and rangers in the game without people mandating that only 6 mage types can ever exist in the game.
You have fun your way, I have fun mine. Don't be jealous because my mage can roast your ranger. Hatah.
Armageddon is still relatively low-magic, compared to many other games, as spawnloser said. Also, any sort of system for "capping" the number of magickers would be incredibly impractical, as well as inherently unfair. If I created a magicker, then logged out and left the game forever, how long would my character idle there before it no longer occupied a "magicker slot"? And what happens if I came back the day it was filled? Would we have an over-capacity of magickers, or would I just get a note that says, "sorry, you suck at life, so your character isn't magickal anymore".
RunningMountain wrote:QuoteNow you pretty much have to have magickers travel with you, or you're going to be lunch for people who do.
This is definetly exaggeration. At least, I've encountered nothing like this in-game. Let's be honest, for most types of magickers, the player is going to have to devote something like that ten or twenty days of his life to get the character to a point where they can pose a real threat. In the meantime, any random yokel can type "flee self".
Quote from: "davien"Quote from: "RunningMountain"
That's the problem. You can have fun and adventure and not be a magick-user. Whatever happened to good old fashioned rangers, warriors and the occasional bard-merchant travelling with you.
Seriously. If someone is a mage, and that means they're more powerful than you, that's the breaks. There are PLENTY of warriors and rangers in the game without people mandating that only 6 mage types can ever exist in the game.
You have fun your way, I have fun mine. Don't be jealous because my mage can roast your ranger. Hatah.
Don't be mad when my ranger indirectly rapes your enchantress of doom. :wink:
I think it's just you. I for one, have only ran into one or two magickers with my outdoor pcs in the last several months.
Like anything else, the numbers come and go. Everything has a rise and fall like the tides.
No need to panic and assume that because you happen to be running into alot, that must mean -everyone- is and there's too many in the game.
I don't feel there is any need to cap the numbers of elementalists.
Perhaps people are seeing magicker Bob and saying "wow! That's inspired me to create a really cool magicker character" and so they do.
One thing to also consider is that magickers are more potent than other characters, so they may appear in greater quantities than they actually are.
Perhaps there are just a couple out there that play a lot and get around all over the known world? Making it -seem- that there are a whole bunch of random magickers, when in fact the few out there just get around to a ton of places.
Mayby I am off... but I seriously doubt that.
Easy solution.
KILL EM ALL.
As it's been said in a dozen threads five times over, these things also seem to go in waves, too. There may actually be a higher than usual amount of magickers right now, doesn't mean there will be later. Doesn't mean those same magickers will be around in a few months time, they've got the same death rate, maybe even higher, than any other character.
So say they do put a strict cap on magicker characters. There can only be X amount of each element in the game at a certain time. While this may cut back on what seems to be your average characters perception of an overpopulation, it'll also cut back on magicker-to-magicker interaction, as clearly not all of those magickers will be in the same area, or the same time zone. So you've got magicker characters, who have no other magickers to play with, and are generally disliked by your common populace. Who will likely eventually get fed up because of this lack of interaction and decide to play in the common populace instead of a magicker, and discourage some people from playing magickers at all if they know the slim chance of the interaction, leaving very few PC magickers at all, cutting everyones chance of RP with them.
Besides, pointless tavern-sitting gemmers don't count as magickers. They're just pointless stupid gemmed people who need to get a life. ;)
So we're down to very few magickers, buddy.
Quote from: "Kalden"Besides, pointless tavern-sitting gemmers don't count as magickers. They're just pointless stupid gemmed people who need to get a life. ;)
Who says they aren't doing something magicky?
Quote from: "RunningMountain"For a low-magick world, there sure is a lot of magick being used around. Just curious how everyone feels about this. Are too many players playing magickers over and over? Should we cap the amount of magickers in game? Should magickers be forced to wear the gem more often instead of being allowed to just roam around.
I see this problem much like the mul issue that came up long ago. It seems I can't make a lone hunter nowadays without running into a defiler or magicker within the first week of adventure.
Thoughts?
-RM
I believe there's too many upper level magic users about in game. I've seen atleast 4-5 different higher level (not extremely high, bot not your bottom line either) in the past month, as apposed to never seeing them in my previous characters four year ig history. Which is staggering considering the previous character was from 'nak. I personally don't have a problem with rock, or water's in game, I believe they have a great place. Especially in 'nak, in a territory that might actually have all of its water supplied by them. But yeah phases come and go, I personally want to see them go. We as a player base are really becoming bombarded with all of these incoming violent roles at once, and it's pretty tough to handle, with the immediate power given.
EDITED: toning it, might be giving off too much ic =P
Quote from: "FightClub"[ We as a player base are really becoming bombarded with all of these incoming violent roles at once, and it's pretty tough to handle, with the immediate power given
Define too tough to handle? Do you mean the game is too hard for you?
The people who are talking about cycles are basically right. It happens in cycles. A month or two from now you'll be wondering where they all are.
We can't, nor do we want to put "caps" on various guilds. For starters, it would be a logistical headache for staff. You'd have to first decide how many you wanted, then keep track of them all. Then you have to decide when are they becoming "inactive", and at what point to you force them to store or play?
If you tried to set it up so it automatically did or did not allow people to play these guilds, then you'd have to decide how the Code determines when they're playing and when they're not. Or, you do it manually, and... bleh, it's far more hassle than it's worth. The other option is to yank the choice from people and only make them special app, but, again, a logistical nightmare.
There is an interesting situation that is shaping up over the years, however. The more time passes the more karma is given out to people, and so more people have the mage options opened up to them. It's a natural conclusion, then, that over time there will in fact be more karma-required roles running around. 5 years ago there may have been 15 people with 3 karms. Today, it could be 35 people with 3 karma. 3 years from now it could be 50 people. (I'm just making these numbers up, no clue if they're accurate).
Is the problem too many magickers or too many obvious magickers?
If there are too many of anything, create an IG drive to fix the imbalance.
Of the last three of four escaped muls I've played, three of them were captured or killed before they had put 5 hours in game.
This is ok. It keeps the mul population down and reflects the real (in Zalanthas, anyway) world pressure on escaped muls.
There was no balancing act that needed to be done by the staff. I think the same is true of magickers.
And while it may seem that magickers are difficult to get an upper-hand on, the truth is that its only the smart ones that are difficult. The other ones die easily. Controlling them, like the mul population will keep the problem to a minimum AND reflect the real world (again, in Zalanthas) pressure on magickers.
The real problem, as I see it, is the willingness of non-magick characters to find some way around their bias and work WITH a magicker. Don't be willing to work with them. Work to kill them.
Something to consider is that magickers and psionicists often have a bigger "footprint" than mundane classes. By footprint, I mean the size of the world they affect at any given point in time. This isn't to say that mundane classes can't affect large portions of the world; some can and do. However, a magicker that can pop all over the Known World in the space of an hour is naturally going to impact on a greater surface area. This often leads to the illusion that the world is full of magickers.
Speaking as someone who periodically uses the who command just to see what classes are on - I'm naturally inquisitive, and we imms have the ability to do that "at a glance" so... why not! whee! - I can say with a fair degree of certainty, without running the actual numbers, that the total percent of magickers and psionicists in the world is quite low. This is in spite of the fact that there are an increasing number of players with magicker karma; again, without running actual numbers, my "at a glance" analysis says that most people who have magicker karma are playing mundanes.
Other factors to consider when you're "tripping over magickers all the time" might be:
Where are you finding them?
What are you doing when you find them?
Are you finding the same magickers over and over?
Are you guild-fishing?
If you're hanging out in certain places that seem infested with magickers... and you keep going BACK to those places... duh. You're going to find magickers. You should NOT be surprised. If you're doing things that are likely to get you noticed by magickers in the area... and you find magickers... you should not be surprised to run into them. If you run into a magicker three times, but it's the same one every time... there's still just the one magicker.
And last but certainly not least... guild-fishing annoys me. A lot. There's a fine line between asking someone about their profession, and fishing around to see what skills they have in order to figure out if they're a magicker or not. My opinion as a player, not as staff, is that asking someone if they're, say, a hunter is fine. Hunter is a profession. Kadius employs hunters, and they might be rangers, warriors, assassins, krathi, or mindbenders guildwise, but that's irrelevant because what they do is they hunt stuff. That's how they make their living. However, if you've just asked that noble House guard, "So, you're a guard?" "Yep." "Any good with an axe?" BZZZT. That sets off the warning bells in my head that says you're guild-fishing.
I bring that up because sometimes, people who guild-fish make bad assumptions about who is and isn't a magicker based on what they think people should reply to guild-fishing questions. If you're seeing too many magickers because you're making bad assumptions, that's a problem with YOU, not the distribution of magickers in the game.
It _is_ really annoying when the merchant starts speaking cavilish to your d-elf merchant after you introduce yourself as a merchant.
Quote from: "Cenghiz"It _is_ really annoying when the merchant starts speaking cavilish to your d-elf merchant after you introduce yourself as a merchant.
Yeah, they really should take Cavilish away from guild_merchant and only give it to merchant family members. Either that or add a Cavilish-speaking subguild. As it is now, it doesn't make sense who does and doesn't speak it.
While I'll have a much more detailed and length post explaining my reasons, the increased number and presence of magickers in Armageddon over years past has significantly lowered the fun of the game for me to the point where I will purposefully avoid any RPT or HRPT that hinges on magickal beings, critters and forces.
To those that say it hasn't changed? It has.
Is it a cycle? Sure, but what is increasing is the potential.
In the old days, it used to be possible to have a character live awhile without hearing about more than a few defilers. Now I feel like I'm living in Metropolis by all of the comic book names of sorcs or magickers I hear. It used to be an uncommon thing, whereas now I come to expect a sorcerer or mindbender to be an all too common part of the game.
The problem isn't magickers. It isn't that people are playing them more often, or that they enjoy magick RP. The problem is that the magicker classes allow for such a higher potential of power that ANY increased frequency in the number played will be more heavily felt upon the game. Having even 5-6 now instead of 1-2 before is seemingly comparable to having 30-40 warriors around now instead of 3-4.
And so what happens when people get karma and then get smoked by a magicker in such a way that nothing they could possibly have done would have saved them. Now, it happens again. And again. And pretty soon they think, "You know, I'm just going to make a magicker so I can be on a level playing field." And now we have more magickers. And more magickers.
If I ever stop playing the game, the power and common presence of magickers in the game will be a part, if not the whole reason.
-LoD
Well, I suppose we should continue to see more magickers as the player base gets older and older. In MMORPG, when they've been around for a couple of years, it's hard to find anyone not max level.
I have mixed feelings on this issue
I've played this game for a very long time, Over ten years and in that time i've played maybe mmm three magickers. Not because the option wasn't opened to me, on the contrary, I've been able to play a magicker for as long as karma has existed and before karma, well you just had to app for it.
I've never really played a big magicker, in fact I assure you that if I mentioned my magickers they would of been known for reasons other than having been magickers, in fact I don't think any of them really got found out for what they were. I never really used the magicks much with them.
So now that having been said, it can make the experience a fair bit cheapened if it is suddenly everywhere. Arguably anyway.
I'd make a simple suggestion on this matter. Put a cap on how many magickers any given player can do in any given period of time. I don't know what other people are doing, but maybe the number of in game magickers would be lowered if people were not allowed to play them too many times or any number of times in a row or somehting to that extent.
Considering how many non-magickesr I've played inbetween, or rather how much time has elapsed between any given number of mine, i can say it certainly wouldn't dampen my experience any, on the contray it would be make it more fun.
Edit: By magicker, I am referring to any magick class, including Psi
We have more of everything, actually. All classes are represented about
how they always were. Even way back in the day, there were a couple of
magickers, at least one of whom was ollllllld and very powerful. What
you weren't seeing back in the day were out-of-the-closer mages, because
it just wasn't as inviting a subculture back then.
Mages are not meant to be unseen in the slightest, so if this disenchants
anyone, it's a rather major portion of Allanak that does so--unfortunately.
Mages are potentially powerful, yes. They're also a difficult and dissimilar
method of playing. I for one am relieved they're more powerful now than
the last time I played. I can only hope their potential grows even more by
the next time I make a mage pc. All that work Halaster and who knows
who else have been putting into the mage classes has paid off, and we're
beginning to see public mages in Allanak like we always should have--in
all their disturbing, baby-eating glory.
The problem with the magick classes is that it dumbs down the game.
If you equate the game to that of chess, you realize that each piece has it's own strengths and weaknesses, it's own place on the board. There are things it can do and things it cannot do. It's designed in such a way to allow some pieces to be powerful in particular situations where in most others they are barely playable.
It is this balance that is important to note. Playing amidst these common mages is like playing against someone who uses 10 queens. Guess how many times I'm going to want to play in the same game as him? Probably not often because his 10 queens and all the power they have dumb down the game to a point that is no longer fun.
It removes strategy and thought, and replaces it with the giddy childish joy of winning. I'm not saying that playing a magicker is "easy-mode", but having magick be made a more common part of the game as it has over the last few years is, in my opinion, dumbing the game down.
-LoD
Well, it depends on what you think is a large number of magickers.
Myself, I think the number is slightly higher, but at the same time I have watched the waves of magickers come and go.
I also tend to play mundanes myself and I think most other karma'd players do the same.
About 1 in 6 of mine is a magicker and all my PC's tend to live at least 6 months rl.
In short, I do not currently see a problem.
And referring to peoples posts about there having been so much fewer in the past...well, yes, and there was also much fewer players period.
I don't know that i agree with LoD that magickers are even that terribly powerful really. But maybe I'm wrong.
Magickers have a lot of weaknesses. I remember not terribly long ago a post about how a magicker would get creamed by a newbie fighter and people trying to argue that magickers needed more defense against the straight up fight. So I think that alone proves magickers have plenty to be afraid of.
Take that and add the fact that magickers can't really hope to make too many friends, but non magickers can, and you have the makings of some seriously vicious witch hunts.
i think I'm going to go ahead and agree with the earlier staff response that if you don't like magickers, hunt them and kill them. Maybe I'll go and do just that.
I don't see a problem either, nor do I see mage classes as being dumbed
down. Dissimilar, yes. Dumbed down, no.
You make it sound like they're invincible, which is entirely untrue. Mages
simply have a different set of skills and a different approach to the game,
one which offers different avenues at the expense of more conventional
means to do anything...and I mean anything.
I play mages following every one or two mundane pc types to break the
monotony, as it offers a different and unique approach to the game.
Some mage-types I've been told are weak are in fact types I play rather
well, while I've found a couple of the so-called mighty classes to be weak.
It's all a matter of preference and priority, not imbalance. If you find the
mage classes yourself to be overpowered, perhaps you're simply better
at playing those than the mundane classes.
X-D. While there were fewer players then. The average players online per night is what you should compare the magicker population too. Currently it's around 50-70. With that number. I'm just taking a wild guess and saying that 20-25 players are magickers. That's a huge chunk. And again that's a guess, but from what I've been seeing it's reasonable. It should be more like 5-10 in my opinion.
Magick is supposed to be rare. Yet when you have players continually playing them it makes the gameworld seem like it isn't. Even if you say virtually there are 600,000 people you have to account for. That's just taking the easy way out and saying well, virtually there are hundreds of gith in the tablelands, yet that doesn't stop desert elves from walking around killing them all.
Actually, I'm gonna change my guess to half the players on being magickers.
I play in Allanak currently. There are not 25 known mages running
around in public.
I would also like to remind everyone that in your past figurings, you left
out The Conclave, which had at least ten active mages at a time during
its heyday.
Magick was not rare back in the day. You just didn't know who was a
mage.
I can see where LoD is coming from, but I do not draw the same end conclusion. The problem -as I see it- is not the number of magickers or the level of magick that is the problem, it is the number of magickers that are -truly- powerfull. Becoming a truly powerful magicker should be as rare as the number of blue robed PC templars we see IG.
I think often there are not enough pressures placed on magickers. It is very possible to replace danger and risk for a magicker with boredom and routine, and in the process create a very powerful, bored character. This is a dangerous combination. It is hard to explain this fully for those that have not played them, those that have should know what I am talking about. Certain areas should not be as safe as they are, magick should be considered dangerous and actively rooted out wherever possible, I just don't see this happen as much as it should.
This is not to say that every warrior Amos in the game should be out tracking and wildly slashing at Magickers. But there are elements of the game that could be made to increase the pressure on the development of uber magickers.
On a slightly different tack, often people play the karma'ed options because they want something different, something unique to play. I think that opening up some of the other races as Sanvean has hinted to could releive some of this pressure as some people might choose one of those other options rather than picking that magicker. As the player base matures and we get more people, having these options could prove helpful in this regard.
Thank you, Morg.
Safe places for magickers will always come and go. You'll get organizaed people together and what are you going to do? Deny magickers the possibility to make any safe home for themselves by some invisible glass ceiling of imm stopness? That imo would be far lamer than having some powerful magickers once in a while. If there is a place that magickers are being safe for right now, find it destroy it.
Quote from: "UnderSeven"Safe places for magickers will always come and go. You'll get organizaed people together and what are you going to do? Deny magickers the possibility to make any safe home for themselves by some invisible glass cieling of imm stopness? That imo would be far lamer than having some powerful magickers once in a while. If there is a place that magickers are being safe for right now, find it destroy it.
Destroy Allanak?
Quote from: "amoeba"I can see where LoD is coming from, but I do not draw the same end conclusion. The problem -as I see it- is not the number of magickers or the level of magick that is the problem, it is the number of magickers that are -truly- powerfull. Becoming a truly powerful magicker should be as rare as the number of blue robed PC templars we see IG.
I think often there are not enough pressures placed on magickers. It is very possible to replace danger and risk for a magicker with boredom and routine, and in the process create a very powerful, bored character. This is a dangerous combination. It is hard to explain this fully for those that have not played them, those that have should know what I am talking about. Certain areas should not be as safe as they are, magick should be considered dangerous and actively rooted out wherever possible, I just don't see this happen as much as it should.
This is not to say that every warrior Amos in the game should be out tracking and wildly slashing at Magickers. But there are elements of the game that could be made to increase the pressure on the development of uber magickers.
On a slightly different tack, often people play the karma'ed options because they want something different, something unique to play. I think that opening up some of the other races as Sanvean has hinted to could releive some of this pressure as some people might choose one of those other options rather than picking that magicker. As the player base matures and we get more people, having these options could prove helpful in this regard.
I disagree. I think it's exactly the way magickers are treated that leads to run-ins with more powerful magickers and few low powered ones. It forced them to go hide out somewhere safe and not risk revealing themselves to anyone until they -are- powerful.
Honestly, I think if magickers were utilized more and weren't hiding out all the time (because they -know- that -everyone- hates,fears them and wants them destroyed) until they become more powerful...they'd probably be out and about more and getting killed more often before they get that powerful.
This is a very good point Jhunter, I am impressed.
I will point out from my experience too, one huge difference between the magickesr of now and magickers of then is it is a lot harder to be one now then it was then. Now it seems if you can't find a place to hide until you get to at least a moderate degree powerful, you die right off. End result? Yeah.. Our prejudice is breeding uber magickers!
Magickers are very powerful but so are guild-warriors, guild-rangers, guild-assassins, guild-burglers... and guild-pickpockets or guild-merchants can often amass significant wealth through their guild abilities and in turn apply that as force. The weakness of a magicker is that they're human on the other end and will want to interact with other people. Floating around with Very Improved Invisibility IV, Ultra-Reaction X and Immunity to Mortal Weapons or whatever simply isn't a permanent option. Eventually that magicker is going to be walking around with his guard down and someone will pwn him - just like anyone else in Zalanthas. How tough is a Thrain Ironsword when you catch him sleeping, without a weapon, while you've got your poisoned halfsword out and a few thug buddies with you?
It can be frustrating to sit like a pleb as some invis mid-level sorceror dictates his will at you, but it's not like he's playing with all queens. It's like he's playing with all black-square bishops. Figure out how to get on the white squares and he's not so tough, is he?
All of that being said, I have seen quite a few magickers around lately. I would be in favour of a quota, as I get the impression that the average karma level of players is going up at a rate greater than the playerbase is. Of course, I just started playing again, so what do I know!
Quote from: "jhunter"I disagree. I think it's exactly the way magickers are treated that leads to run-ins with more powerful magickers and few low powered ones. It forced them to go hide out somewhere safe and not risk revealing themselves to anyone until they -are- powerful.
Honestly, I think if magickers were utilized more and weren't hiding out all the time (because they -know- that -everyone- hates,fears them and wants them destroyed) until they become more powerful...they'd probably be out and about more and getting killed more often before they get that powerful.
From personal experience, I can tell you that jhunter is partly correct.
When I play a magicker, I usually prefer to go solo and secret, doing my
own thing. The difference is that I never bother going public about being
a mage, since by the time I get to powerful levels, I tell everyone to piss
off and continue doing my own thing.
It's not because I don't like the gem or the Elementalist's Quarter. It's
mainly because I like playing in the same game with everyone else
rather than being cordoned off and abandoned by the majority of the
playerbase. Nakkis and Tulukis both love plausible deniability in their
business, so they're not going to necessarily ask you how you're doing the
tasks you're doing for them--and if they do, they're foolish in the extreme
for expecting an honest answer in a world like Zalanthas. ;)
As long as elementalists in particular get treated poorly and the only
public employers are smug bastards like Oash and the templarate, I'm
content to stay in the closet under a plausible cover identity and conduct
my affairs with the greater populace free of prejudice and disdain.
Chew on that the next time you try to figure out who all the mages in the
Known World are. ;)
I actually wouldn't mind a quota myself, so long as it took into account whose played what. A quota that gives favor to people who hanv't played as many magickers might be nice. However halaster does bring up a good point of inactivity. Which is not uncommon around here. How do we deal with that?
Just remove inactive characters from the count where the quota is concerned. It's an acceptable margin of error, since it'd only throw the quota out of whack for one character's lifetime when they return.
I wouldn't see it being a particular problem unless, say, four defilers go on vacation and then all come back the same week three months later.
Quote from: "UnderSeven"I actually wouldn't mind a quota myself, so long as it took into account whose played what. A quota that gives favor to people who hanv't played as many magickers might be nice. However halaster does bring up a good point of inactivity. Which is not uncommon around here. How do we deal with that?
The answer is...you don't. There is no fair way to set up a quota. More
than one imm has already stated that it's an impossible headache to deal
with and too many factors to apply.
Quote from: "Halaster"
There is an interesting situation that is shaping up over the years, however. The more time passes the more karma is given out to people, and so more people have the mage options opened up to them. It's a natural conclusion, then, that over time there will in fact be more karma-required roles running around. 5 years ago there may have been 15 people with 3 karms. Today, it could be 35 people with 3 karma. 3 years from now it could be 50 people. (I'm just making these numbers up, no clue if they're accurate).
So why not make karma expendable?
What of individual quotos? Think there was a thread on that somewhere...
Oh Davian, I don't like that idea at all. I actually think karma is too subjective a system already and harder to get sometimes then it should be. This is fine because you can special app anything which is nice, but if karma were expendable, I'd say we might as well just screw the whole system in the first place and move back to just a special app system for all karma classes above a certain point.
Quote from: "jhunter"Honestly, I think if magickers were utilized more and weren't hiding out all the time (because they -know- that -everyone- hates,fears them and wants them destroyed) until they become more powerful...they'd probably be out and about more and getting killed more often before they get that powerful.
Boy do I disagree with your disagree. This may address the boredom of gemmed magickers, possibly getting them killed more, but would not address the issue of the other ones trying to remain below the radar. Having ready employment for those who are to be feared and hated simply makes them an ordinary Amos with special abilities. This I believe is antithetical to the whole concept of magick in this world. This approach, gemmed notwithstanding, simply places magick into the commonplace.
My point is that is should be rough as hell for a magicker to reach any real level of uber power. It should be a challange, this would naturally lessen the number of magickers who want to stick it out, and increase the value and excitement of playing one and finally making it. Giving ready employment I believe would increase the number of those playing magickers.
In addition creating OOC quotas is inherently unfair and a nightmare to administer as a couple of the IMMs have previously noted. There need to be IG pressures to cull the numbers naturally.
Cracking down more is only going to make -more- of them stay under the radar until they are powerful. It's going to increase the number of -powerful- mages you run into.
If more were getting hired to do jobs for others...they'd be out taking more risks instead of hanging out somewhere getting more powerful.
Hunter/gatherer pcs are dying constantly...because they are out there with a goal and taking risks.
Would it make magick more commonplace? Sure. Would it lower the percentage of -powerful- mages out of those living.? I think so.
We'll just have to agree to disagree because I don't see it the way that you do.
Quote from: "RunningMountain"Currently it's around 50-70. With that number. I'm just taking a wild guess and saying that 20-25 players are magickers.
hahahahahah
Do you just pull this out your butt or what? :D
Out of 50 to 70 players online at night lately it's MUCH less than those numbers.. more like about 10. What in the world makes you think it's that high?
All I got to say is, magick is far too commonplace nowadays. You see it in every HRPT/RPT. Look at the friggin' history. Whatever happened to good old fashioned combat being number one? When did this magick trend start? The reason armageddon is such a fun setting is that it IS low-magic. We don't want people running around with magic gear and all that, so why would we want a lot of magick-capable characters running around doing stuff?
-RM
You know, I'm not staff, but I think I have a reasonable handle on the number of mages in the game.
I really doubt there are 25 total, and I doubt very much if more then 7-12 are ever on at the same time.
Again, not staff, so I could easily be wrong.
But to me, the ratio of mundanes playing and mages seems good.
Quote from: "RunningMountain"All I got to say is, magick is far too commonplace nowadays. You see it in every HRPT/RPT. Look at the friggin' history. Whatever happened to good old fashioned combat being number one? When did this magick trend start? The reason armageddon is such a fun setting is that it IS low-magic. We don't want people running around with magic gear and all that, so why would we want a lot of magick-capable characters running around doing stuff?
-RM
Look at the history and tell me there isn't magick involved all the way back, such as the Dragon and Tektolnes. The world of Zalanthas has magick involved all the way back to the beginning of history. The common IC belief of how the world became a desert is because of magick. The city-states are ruled by sorcerer-kings. Magick is involved in Zalanthas, it's a fantasy setting. Yes, it's low magick in that people aren't walking around with magick gear everywhere, but that doesn't mean no-magick.
And no, it's not in every RPT/HRPT (though often it is, I agree). There was an RPT just the other night that involved "good old fashioned combat", by way of the arena. So, what you're saying is misleading (I mention it because I don't want newer players hearing things that are inaccurate).
I think the idea is not to make magick like turning on a light, not to erase magick from the world. Think about the Jedi Powers in Star Wars, then realize that that's probably the level of Magick in Armageddon. A Magick breastplate is fine, someplace in the world. Forty of them are not. A potion? Dangerous, but sure, right on. A potion Shopkeeper? Fuck no.
Actually, those few you're considering powerful are the result of Darwin's
theory coming to light. They adjusted exactly to the higher levels of
danger and difficulty applied to magick-using pcs.
Care to see how nightmarishly powerful they get when you make it even
more dangerous and difficult to be a magicker? You won't solve the
problem you think you will, but I'll certainly find it interesting to watch. :twisted:
Quote from: "Halaster"Look at the history and tell me there isn't magick involved all the way back, such as the Dragon and Tektolnes. The world of Zalanthas has magick involved all the way back to the beginning of history. The common IC belief of how the world became a desert is because of magick. The city-states are ruled by sorcerer-kings. Magick is involved in Zalanthas, it's a fantasy setting. Yes, it's low magick in that people aren't walking around with magick gear everywhere, but that doesn't mean no-magick.
While what you say is true, Halaster, I think RM is probably referring to the high profile "world event" quests having a
high magickal content in both concept and execution. I cannot remember a year in the past three that did not feature a Lord of <insert scary name> gathering an army of <insert scary creature> attacking a city/village.
It isn't that low magick quests don't happen, but that these high magick (sorcerers with armies of undead) quests/plots seem to be the model of choice. And I, too, find myself loathe to hear about the next big magickal being/beast ravaging the countryside when I'd much prefer to hear about a gith invasion, neighboring city-state war, drought requiring some type of global action, harsh weather exposing some valuable resource (i.e. earthquake, sand storm), territorial wars, the need for exploration of a dangerous area, retrieval of a stolen person/item or anything that would allow 99% of the people to use planning, cunning and their skillset to directly effect the outcome of the story.
As will be detailed in my pending discussion if just this topic, all too often it seems the plots are motivated by highly powerful, highly magickal beings/critters that somewhat tend to alienate the non-magickal playerbase and trivialize their involvement.
-LoD
About 4-6 months ago, I mentioned there were too many magickers. There were many experiences that lead me to this opinion, one of them being my character cussing out the generic gemmed and ended up having 5 out of 7 PCs look at him angrilly. The chara looked around and got the fuck out of there. Me ... I realized that it's not bright 'hating' magickers, when it so happens they're in majority, and it's the 'normals' that end up being outcasts. You cant really 'hate' something so dangerous and 'unique' as magickers, if they are so many of them, 'they're normal, and your lack of a gem makes you unique.
So the point of it is, the lynch mobs and so on should be atleast slightly common against magickers, but how can they be created, if your lynch mob is smaller in number then magickers. Ofcourse, I'm talking about PCs only, but when push comes to shove and a roleplayed out example of magick hatred is about to happen in some tavern, vnpcs arent going to help your chara get the needed courage boost that mobs tend to do.
That was 4-6 months ago, right now ... I didnt notice this many gemmed magickers, maybe they're just in hiding, or the phase is over. But if somebody is claiming they're still at large, then ... is it the same phase I experienced that half a year ago, or is it a new one already.
Quote from: "Folker"my character cussing out the generic gemmed and ended up having 5 out of 7 PCs look at him angrilly. The chara looked around and got the fuck out of there. Me ... I realized that it's not bright 'hating' magickers, when it so happens they're in majority, and it's the 'normals' that end up being outcasts.
I don't think the point is that mages are the majority...
The point is that Allanakis simply don't think of them the way Tulukis do.
Tuluki's think about those damned witches, and kill them on sight. Allanaki's have marginal use for them, and -tolerate- them. Your average Allanaki has no real reason to walk up to some mage, unprovoked, and be an asshole. You can choose to hate mages all you like, but most people aren't going to swear them out in public because 1) it's not smart, they could just smite you, 2) some of the mages have provided services to the very poor as a means to survive themselves, and 3) there's other shit to worry about in 'Nak.
You know... I really don't mind seeing a little magick here and there. It's a part of the game world, a central theme that can't and shouldn't really be ignored.
LoD, as someone who it seems like a lot of people look up to on these boards, I think it sets a really bad example when you say you're just not going to log in for RPTs involving magick. To me that sounds like a cheap way out, and I really hope whatever PCs you're playing aren't even remotely important if you choose to do that.
I'm opening myself up for multiple-flamethrower retaliation here, but if you guys want a no-magick setting? Go play in Tuluk. No, no, I'm serious. Stop laughing. Tuluk outlaws magick completely, you won't find Faithful openly using magick, and you won't find them relying on magickers. Everything (as far as is commonly known, anyway) that Tuluk wants to accomplish has to be done by normal, mundane people. I'm sure the Legion and the other Tuluki clans would love a few extra players so that they could throw down some really fine RPTs.
On the other end of the world... Allanak has the gemmed. Tek doesn't keep his gemmed pets around so that the rest of the city can sneer and be uneasy around them. He doesn't keep them around so they can spam-cast happily in their temples, either. When the Allanaki templarate needs something done, it makes a whole lot of sense that they'd get their gemmers to help out with it. Of course this isn't to say mundanes aren't useful to Allanak too, but if you really wanted to be the star of the show and not compete with fireball-throwing crazies, there ARE other places to play.
I could write more to this, but I won't. Basically I'm happy with how things are. Boo to trying to reduce the amount of magick, and double boo to quotas.
I remember "back in the day" most of the game gave the gypsies a whole lot of shit, because all their RPTs were stopping some magickal entity in some place, or performing some giant magickal ritual, or whatever. At the time, these things seemed really super overkill, because a good quest was Thrain getting all his dwarven buddies together, downing about fifty kegs of whatever flammable beverage they could find, and staggering into Allanak with their swords out shouting something about Ironsword...
Hell, even The Great Catastrophe had a few dozen hundred undead shambling around...
But I can see how the tides have turned, here. I can appreciate where LoD is coming from. And, honestly, I don't really blame him. Any RPT that suggests a guaranteed death for a char I've spent a lot of time getting to a point I like probably isn't worth it. I don't think I'd not login (hell, I still remember getting zorched during a staff/player meeting just for the hell of it), because it's still eyecandy.. but I can see that some folks want something with a plot they can be a part in.
So, hold on a second. I'm puzzled, are you saying that Magickers are not hated within Allanak? I thought they're hated and feared universally by everyone who dont wield magick themselves. It's just in Tuluk there's open license for them, and in Arm there is a ... private license for them :) Atleast that's how I always understood it.
You're describing it like Allanak is like ... a city of the wizards, or some such.
Quote from: "RunningMountain"All I got to say is, magick is far too commonplace nowadays. You see it in every HRPT/RPT. Look at the friggin' history.
As has been stated before, magickers simply have a larger footprint or larger impact in some ways. That is why there is so much attention paid to them in the history, because they made large impacts in those events.
Also, in those events, sure there were a few magickers...but how many mundanes were there too? Far more than there were magickers, I guarantee.
Quote from: "spawnloser"As has been stated before, magickers simply have a larger footprint or larger impact in some ways. That is why there is so much attention paid to them in the history, because they made large impacts in those events.
Pretty much. In any world with powerful magicks just about any world-changing event is going to involve magick in one way or another because magick is the equivalent of the Nuclear Bomb.
As far as the presence of magick trivializing the involvement by most of the playerbase, that stands to reason to me. Most of the real world is full of people who are just spectators to world-changing events, so why should Zalanthas be any different?
so it'll be more fun?
Quote from: "CRW"As far as the presence of magick trivializing the involvement by most of the playerbase, that stands to reason to me. Most of the real world is full of people who are just spectators to world-changing events, so why should Zalanthas be any different?
Because it's a game for players? ;)
Having said that, any player, no matter their guild or occupation, can have a dramatic effect on
any plot. I've seen normal characters play an important part in magick plots before.
Quote from: "Agent_137"so it'll be more fun?
Yeah, every character should be a sorceror-king.
Quote from: "John"Because it's a game for players? ;)
That's a pretty shocking revelation. :?
This is a low fantasy game and part of what makes it harsh is how most characters are just peons to be shit on by the few movers and shakers.
Honestly, the sense of entitlement people get over HRPTs is silly. It's why you end up with nobles cocking up bullshit reasons to go fight waves of gith attacking a tent camp or something. World-changing events are going to involve major powers and most characters will be lucky if they can be realistically involved in a really intimate sense. Otherwise you end up with silly concessions to engage everyone in a way that cheapens the whole effect.
I'm differentiating between RPTs and HRPTs here.
straw-man argument. that's not what i said. that wouldn't even be fun.
either respond for real or leave please.
Quote from: "Agent_137"straw-man argument.
Uh oh.
Quotethat's not what i said. that wouldn't even be fun.
either respond for real or leave please.
What more do I need to say to be allowed to stay? Invading hordes of mantis don't stop along the way to see if there is anyone who wants to get brought along for the ride. The world turns and major events happen and low level aides and independent hunters and prancing bards have no real reason to be consulted or engaged other than to be entertained as spectators.
Straw-man? What is that?
http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
I think...
Quote from: "RunningMountain"Straw-man? What is that?
It's sorta like 'Wax on - Wax off' from Karate Kid but for discussion boards.
I'd like to see more mundane plots and magickal plots.
It would be nice if a few people in Red Storm would need to deal with spice raiders and that half of House Kurac's spice became poisoned and a third of the world died (including your character) and Kurac was destroyed. Or if some salt worms started nesting aroud Luir's, damaging the economy and obliterating House Kurac. Or if some distant cave with a cache of non-magickal treasure was found and people had to race there and find it and destroy House Kurac on the way.
But I still don't see why we need less magickal plots. Powerful magickers are the people that can stand up and fuck the Known World in the ass, this is why everyone is giving them such a rough time. You don't hate a Krathi because he's filth or even because he might infect your soul and make your children mutants. You hate a Krathi because that Krathi can go to a farm around Allanak and burn it down in half an hour. I think these magickal plots also help the magicker huggers to realize just how insane they are.
They also put the world in perspective - Zalanthas is a world where magick is scarce, meaning that it's distributed very unevenly and the people who do have the power pretty much hoard it to themselves. One of the things I really like about Armageddon is that, in contrast to Invasion-type quests in other MUDs, when somewhere is being attacked you don't -always- have a reason to stay and fight, and sometimes your 80 day warrior with branched eighth attack is simply meaningless. Hasn't this always been a part of how the game works? Each character has his forte, and killing extremely powerful magickers isn't really a job for Amos the Temboslayer.
Logging out to avoid an RPT, intentionally, is the same as logging out to avoid being captured by a templar in my book, and I don't care if you can justify the quitting as huddling in some alley somewhere.
What next? Is it a problem that most RPTs are clan-exclusive and not the entire playerbase can join? Hey, this is a game and I'm a player too, I wanna be in that Bardic Contest so why can't my Allanaki Templar come compete? It's a game!
Sorry bub.
About quotas on magickers, I thought these already existed when people special-app for a role they don't have enough karma for. Special apping a mul when there are 7 other PC muls active in-game is harder than special apping a mul when there doesn't seem to be any PC mul in game at all, right?
So Vivaduans and Rukkians are pretty common compared to other Elementalists, which is meant to be that way, and Whirans and Krathi are somewhat rarer but there's still a chance you must stumble into one in a dark alley, and Drovians, Elkrans and Nilazi are pretty hard to find, taking the place of an acid-coated needle in the haystack that you'd better not sit on. And defilers and mindbenders are rarer still, but they too exist.
What's the problem? If you have a really good idea for a plot, you could always just email the MUD account and say what's on your mind. Or if you want the alternate route, take your own character and create a plot yourself - find a new watering hole or make one by burying Vivaduans alive in a circle and punching them in the face. Look for a new cave or a strategic location and email the staff to explain why it would be good to the game if a few new rooms were written for that purpose.
About magickers being hated in Allanak, they are hated and they are feared, but they are hated more in Tuluk. In Tuluk, any magick-wielder is automatically considered to be as bad as a defiler - an evil mage that destroys the world for their own benefit and eats babies. In Allanak, Vivaduans are feared and hated but not as badly as, say, Drovians or Nilazi, and defilers are feared and hated the most.
It's like - a lower level magicker is a religious extremist, a higher level magicker is an active terrorist and a sorcerer is Osama Bin Laden or Britney Spears' singing. In Tuluk, any religious extremist is considered to be just as bad as Osama himself.
Quote from: "Larrath"that half of House Kurac's spice became poisoned and a third of the world died (including your character) and Kurac was destroyed. Or if some salt worms started nesting aroud Luir's, damaging the economy and obliterating House Kurac. Or if some distant cave with a cache of non-magickal treasure was found and people had to race there and find it and destroy House Kurac on the way.
Poor, poor Kurac. They just never get a break. They get invaded by Allanak, they get invaded by Mantises. They get banned from Allanak, they're allowed to return but no spice is allowed. Will they never be safe from the torments of the world?
How about we screw over Kadius? Or Salarr? Or Nenyuk (that clan's closed right? The apartment script is taking their place? PERFECT time to kill them off)?
Quote from: "John"Quote from: "Larrath"that half of House Kurac's spice became poisoned and a third of the world died (including your character) and Kurac was destroyed. Or if some salt worms started nesting aroud Luir's, damaging the economy and obliterating House Kurac. Or if some distant cave with a cache of non-magickal treasure was found and people had to race there and find it and destroy House Kurac on the way.
Poor, poor Kurac. They just never get a break. They get invaded by Allanak, they get invaded by Mantises. They get banned from Allanak, they're allowed to return but no spice is allowed. Will they never be safe from the torments of the world?
How about we screw over Kadius? Or Salarr? Or Nenyuk (that clan's closed right? The apartment script is taking their place? PERFECT time to kill them off)?
You're derailing the thread!
Remember, people, this is the thread to discuss magickers and magickal quests
and ways to destroy House Kurac.
Derailment: okay, but give Salarr and Kadius l33t NPC units of soldiers, too. And kill Kurac anyway.
On topic: yeah, so...another reason why just up and killing gemmed magickers in Allanak is rarer than in Tuluk is that the Templarate would discourage these sort of ideas. You talk about killing a gemmer in the open and the Templarate or Militia could well enough kill you because they want to spare the city the terrible destruction that gemmer could cause as a result of being attacked.
Quote from: "Larrath"You're derailing the thread!
Sorry, I tend to go where the conversation takes me, rather then strictly adhering to a specific topic. Both philosophies on internet threads have their pros and cons ;)
On Topic, absolutely no derailing happening here:
Quote from: "Larrath"You talk about killing a gemmer in the open and the Templarate or Militia could well enough kill you because they want to spare the city the terrible destruction that gemmer could cause as a result of being attacked.
That and gemmers are useful to the Templarate. Who knows what a relationship is like between a gemmer and his/her templar.
FWIW, Magick was far, far more common in the days of yore, prior to karma. Magickers were allowed in Tuluk, you didn't need to be gemmed to live a good life as a magicker in Allanak.
There are fewer magickers than before. If you are saying something different, then you are either ignorant of the past or choosing to have a selective memory.
Further, to restate what Hal touched on - the world is founded, based on, magick. The Dragon, the sorcerer kings, the templarates (of both cities), and yes, elementalists and sorcerers.
A glance here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_fantasy shows me that magick should be rare (it is, especially compared to RL years prior and is growing ever more so), and that no absolute good and evil should be defined.
I think this defines are game pretty well as a low fantasy game.
I think putting quotas on classes would be lame, first of all.
Secondly, I do feel there is some validity to making less magickal RPTs be more common. I have no problem with magickal RPTs, per se, but it can be sort of conflicting from the perspective of a player trying to play out the magick intolerant setting. Yes, a dinosaur made out of fire tromping down the streets, eating people will certainly make it easy to roleplay hating magick. But being chilled by the fact that someone can light a torch with a wave of their hand? It easily becomes "I've seen weirder things."
That's my very limited experience, at least.
Quote from: "Folker"So, hold on a second. I'm puzzled, are you saying that Magickers are not hated within Allanak? I thought they're hated and feared universally by everyone who dont wield magick themselves. It's just in Tuluk there's open license for them, and in Arm there is a ... private license for them :) Atleast that's how I always understood it.
You're describing it like Allanak is like ... a city of the wizards, or some such.
Allanak is not a city of wizards, nor is magick happily accepted by everyone. Most average commoners do not like magick or mages. However, the templarate allows mages (except sorcerers) to exist and legalizes magick - therefore the average commoner has little choice but to accept the fact it's there. They don't have to like it, but there isn't a whole lot they can do about it. That's where the back-alley vigilantes come in, who quietly whack mages in the night when no one's looking (or die trying).
Quote from: "Halaster"
Allanak is not a city of wizards, nor is magick happily accepted by everyone. Most average commoners do not like magick or mages. However, the templarate allows mages (except sorcerers) to exist and legalizes magick - therefore the average commoner has little choice but to accept the fact it's there. They don't have to like it, but there isn't a whole lot they can do about it. That's where the back-alley vigilantes come in, who quietly whack mages in the night when no one's looking (or die trying).
I guess this is what I was trying to say, but less eloquently. "accept the fact" (i.e. tolerate) I did not mean to give the impression that mages are liked. They may be considered "useful tools" by a spare handful of (usually either desperate or rich) people, but they are not largely openly hated because they're just a part of life (as the Highlord commands).
Quote from: "ale six"LoD, as someone who it seems like a lot of people look up to on these boards, I think it sets a really bad example when you say you're just not going to log in for RPTs involving magick. To me that sounds like a cheap way out, and I really hope whatever PCs you're playing aren't even remotely important if you choose to do that.
I'm opening myself up for multiple-flamethrower retaliation here, but if you guys want a no-magick setting? Go play in Tuluk.
I hear you, ale. Perhaps let me provide you with a few reasons why I have come to shy away from large scale magick RPT's when given that option.
Plots and quests should focus primarily on the PC's involvement. PC's should be the main instigators, proponents, opponents, planners and victims. This should happen because players are representing their role within the game world 100% of the time. They have the time to RP not only the pro-active stages of their character, but also the downtimes where they have fun, relax, sit around, be vulnerable and off guard. When any NPC, magickal or otherwise, is used to further a plot or quest, the time allowed for that role is in direct competition with an Imm's avatar, their clan duties, their personal projects and their real life. That usually leads to very direct and pointed sessions that don't allow much time for the rest of the world to react and interact with you anywhere outside of the very narrow goals being pursued.
My last character (100 day warrior) was invited to participate in a "high magick RPT' in Tuluk (as you suggest) and so I went along because I wanted to help support storylines. 30 minutes later when my character was killed by some magickal being in 2 seconds, I started thinking why. Why would I want to throw all of my time played away to a single NPC that probably took 5 minutes to create, load skills on and setup.
Did they have to work their skills up over RL years? Did they have to practice their skills in secrecy with danger lurking around every corner and escape countless situations where they almost died like I had to get where I was? Did they develop friends, enemies and relationships with people that made them vulnerable before they reached their pinnacle of power and might and raised their undead army? I was not made privvy to that information, but I'm doubting it.
If the answer is no, then I don't much care for it. I don't much care for pitting my characters against ghost concepts that don't put the time or effort into becoming a real part of the gameworld before being used to further the plot because someone wants to skip "the hard part" of the game in actually growing this character/entity within the confines of the gameworld.
IMHO - players need to be the main motivating force in the game with the Imms placing NPC's/Avatars in supporting roles of the major clans where they are not in a position to dictate the course of the clan as much as guide it. Of course there will be situations where leader PC's need to interact with a higher force, but those times should be kept to a minimum so that the stories can be fleshed out on every level by the players instead loaded up when someone has a 'cool idea'.
It takes a long time for PC inspired quests or ideas to take shape, and the Imms tell you that you can do it if you have the proper planning, commitment and RP to back up every step of the journey. I only ask for the same policy to be applied to any character (NPC, VNPC or PC) that wants to effect the story rather than simply guide it. If the force is going to interact with PC's in a way that can mean their death, then I would hope that force has established themselves in such a way that the rest of the game had a chance to know them at every stage of their journey.
The Imm Staff do an incredible job, but I know that my issues with high magick have always come at the end of a session involving these spawned armies of mantis, undead, kryl, serpents or whatever you want. They aren't players, they usually aren't created or controlled by players and so -I- don't want them to be greatly effect players.
It makes me feel like I spend all this time working on a sand castle when someone says, "Man, check out this wave machine I just made, isn't it cool!" WHOOSH. There goes my castle.
Morale of the story : WHOOSHING sand castles makes me not want to build them.
-LoD
A point well made LoD.
I'm going to run with LoD's derail for a bit.
Hm, LoD, you are mostly right, but even 98% pc designed and lead events can be susceptible to the problems you described. Case in point was my second character's death (which ended up turning me off of the political scene).
He was my first character over 3 hours, and ended up making it to about 14 or 15 day and becoming a byn sergeant. Immortals facilitated the clash of the two armies somewhere out in the red for two reasons: One, the staffer had to go to bed soon, and had already spent more time than planned on it, as they were standing in for some one else, and two: otherwise the armies might have missed each other.
A blood bath ensued, and my character and most of his unit were killed, mostly by NPC half-giants and mutants.
How can a soft force of mostly PCs compete with that? Further, without advanced guarding and max-attackers code, the fight became even more onesided due to the ability focus on one opponent at a time with multiple people assisting. An OOC combat leadership skill, yes, but realistic, no.
So what seemed like something great: A PC led plot, turned into what LoD dislikes about Imm led plots: NPCs slaughtering PCs, and Immortals making things happen faster than naturally they should.
Who knows, maybe in the forced encampment that we missed because the immortal OOCed us back to full stamina, my char would have spoken with his old sergeant via the way and found out that they were actually on the other side, which could have changed things completely. As it turns out, my char's old sergeant ended up disarming him which lead to the NPC half-giant and mutant finishing him off. good stuff.
This happened about 2 years ago, and I did speak with the mud account and the staffer who ran the event. Perhaps immortals became more careful after it. Or perhaps the one staffer who was in charge of it simply filed it away in their brain as something they should be mindful about, and the rest of the staff goes on doing as they do.
p.s.
there were magicakal NPCs, though I know not how many. At least one on our side.
All of you who are so desperate to be in pc plots need to start making them--don't wait for them.
That said, I don't think all plot should be pc-centric. Events in game are meant to happen outside
the control of pcs, just like in reality. I doubt anyone here had any personal control over
9/11, for example, and having imm-run RPTs and HRPTs give the sense of a larger world than
just the pcs.
I don't know about two years ago and older, but since then PC casualty rates in RPTs seem to be fairly low. None have really been the Halasterian death-fests of legend I keep hearing about. In fact, I believe the last major RPT where a lot (10+) of PCs died was entirely PC-driven.
I do think that the last few really big RPT plots have been pretty high-magick, though. A more mundane threat every now and then would be a nice break.
LoD's bit I think is a completely different subject. Maybe not to him, but a great deal of people are talking about pc magickers. This has virtually nothing to do with Magick plots and magick npcs and how staff choose to play them, it's not even comparable. Furthermore those Allanaki magickers are probably not the uber powerful mages people think. Sure they can cast in their temples safely, but the fact of the matter is, they're the templar's little biizzz's and therefore have a boss to look over their shoulder.
So are we complaining about the free roaming magickers? The magicker plots? Or Allanaki magickers?
I literally think just about everyone on this thread has a different thing in mind when they say 'magicker'.
Yeah -- IMM-run RPTs with souped-up NPCs as the chief villians are a completely different topic, whether they're uberbuffed magickers or uberbuffed warriors. I don't think refusing to take part in them just because the big mean beastie might kill you is very cool, either. And for my own part I don't think it's realistic to expect a staffer to take 50 days building up an NPC's skills just to be able to run a plot with it. But this is all a different topic.
So back on topic to magickers: At least for me over the last year or so, the spread between magickal plots and non-magickal plots has been relatively equal. It's definitely true that magickers have a greater potential to affect things (they should), and that the presence of magick in a plot diminishes the usefulness of non-magickal PCs somewhat (of course). This, I think, is fine. We shouldn't be playing our characters to be the save-the-world hero. To me, magickal plots are interesting, and even if my PC can't do much more than stand and watch on the sidelines I'll still have fun enjoying the story.
That all said, I think some policy to prevent saturation of magickers in the PCs might not be a terrible idea. I don't like quotas, but expendable karma is a little more palatable to me, maybe. A better thing would just be a rule that players can't make repeated magickers one after another. (Every karma-guilded PC would have to be followed by at least one non-karma-guilded PC.) Though as long as people are playing responsibly, I think the way things are now is okay.
And, Larrath... we get it. You don't like House Kurac. Stop flaming?
Well, I think the title of the post opens this dicussion to all kinds of points.
The topic is "Magick in game" and I chose to discuss Magick as it was used by the Imms to drive and steer plotlines rather than to discuss the number of magickers in game. My thoughts on that topic are as such:
Elementalists
I don't believe there are too many elementalists, nor do I believe they are a problem with regard to guild and world balance. They are hunted in the northlands, gemmed in the southlands and not trusted anywhere. Recent changes to the guild balanced them a bit in relation to the other classes, but the limits imposed on the elementalists keep me pretty happy.
As Underseven mentions, 'naki magickers are already watched by the templarate or whomever is on "gem patrol" and so their presence is muted. Rogue magickers may post more of a threat, but even they are still somewhat limited. They have the potential to be very powerful, but the nature of each elementalist guild has inherent weaknesses.
Sorcerers
This is my main beef. There was another thread that discussed this topic in far greater detail and depth. Sorcerers have so much potential for power, and the tendency to gather it in the small, quiet places of the world, that we only seem to bump into them when they can easily handle most of the PC or NPC opposition.
They have access to enough tools that people who want to "hunt" them would have be lucky not only to find them, but to catch them at a time when they would be vulnerable, or visible, enough to defeat. I feel that sorcerers should be even more hunted and rare than they are presently, and Marko made some pretty nice suggestions for changes that could be made to make them be as difficult as they should be. (i.e. No spell progression through practice, only way to learn new spells would be to find a mentor).
While I don't feel there should be a cap on elementalists, I DO strongly favor a cap on sorcerers just as there is normally a cap on templars. The defilers that do manage to live long enough not to be discovered by a sorc-king or other worldly power should be precious few, and even those should have a difficult time of every reaching their true potential. For when they do reach that potential, it's truly an awesome and potentially world effecting event.
Warriors, rangers, assassins, merchants, burglars, pickpockets, elementalists -- they can each become quite powerful and influential, but they pale in comparison to what true magick can do. It is really just this point with which I have issues. Sorcerers, as a class, have been the ones to irk me the most and cause me the most fits with regards to quests, plotlines and general encounters out in the wildnerness. Without them, I'd probably have very little to say on this entire subject.
-LoD
Staff correct me if i'm wrong, but arn't sorc apps more or less special app even if you do have the karma for it? What I mean is you can probably get a warrior in the game without a snap if you put in a acceptable app, you probably need a good app for a karma character, but a sorc of psi, even with the option likely requires you actually have a good concept. I doubt if there are as many 'magickers' in game as people think, in regard to sorcs. plus almost any sorc seen casting is going to get attacked.
I think this might be a perception issue more than anything. But I supposed if it was a problem, staff could just clamp down on requirements.
Quote from: "UnderSeven"Staff correct me if i'm wrong, but arn't sorc apps more or less special app even if you do have the karma for it? What I mean is you can probably get a warrior in the game without a snap if you put in a acceptable app, you probably need a good app for a karma character, but a sorc of psi, even with the option likely requires you actually have a good concept. I doubt if there are as many 'magickers' in game as people think, in regard to sorcs. plus almost any sorc seen casting is going to get attacked.
I think this might be a perception issue more than anything. But I supposed if it was a problem, staff could just clamp down on requirements.
No, if someone has the karma for a sorcerer, they can play one without having to special app for it.
What I meant Halaster is that during the regular app process, higher karma roles I would imagine anyway, have higher standards on what will get accepted and what won't.
The sorcerer that you know about is not the sorcerer should be worring about, anyways.
I don't have a problem with PC sorcerors. I think the fact that they're probably roles that require extreme isolation as well as lots of spell practice is enough of a natural limiter. I really can't imagine there are more than about 4 active sorceror PCs at a time.
Yes, sorcerors are powerful, but probably far more so than people realize. If a PC sorceror wanted to, he could probably eliminate every PC in the game with little danger. This why they are 8-karma, though. They are the most trusted players in the game. I trust that they won't insta-kill everyone stranger they run in to. I trust that if a group of people sets up an RPT to hunt one down, they'll try to be online. I trust that they have better goals than to just kill as many PCs as possible. I trust that these players will keep the entertainment of others in mind.
Why is 'many magickers' hurting the game?
Because they can kill easily? Bah.. A ranger, a warrior, an assassin or a templar may also kill you easily. With my player chars I often avoid conflict.. If there's a hooded figure in 'very far', it's often wise to simply change your route and head elsewhere. I don't think elementalists kill in swarms. (Sorcerers, in the other hand, get forced to.. I'll explain.)
An elementalist may become something powerful that can kill groups with ease but.. What's the use in that? Often having some wine, a good lover of opposite sex and friends to chatter is more fun.
I'm often hearing about people wanting to press more on mages. That nerves me a bit. I often play magickers, if everyone starts attacking my newbie mage in the desert, he'll retire to his temple/cave and won't leave before branching the spell of doom. The pressure won't make him disappear. He'll just wait for his time and spare 3 hours to practice instead of 15 mins because he cannot do anything else without being attacked.
There are more uber-mages, because the pressure is stronger right now. I remember, with my first mage, I hardly ever branched a spell.. (No I'm lying, I branched twice in his 20-days of playing time if I remember right.) Because he needn't branch. He would go do some mundane jobs to make a living and spend the rest of his time to interact. His plot was always something peaceful - first was making a perfect set of izdari of granite and jasper, then he seeked people knowing izdari, then he took interest in warmages' wisdom, not to become more powerful, but to become wiser.
Now, any magicker of mine gets employed, then he needs to up his skills to be of use.. Or he does not get employed then he needs to up his skills to stay alive in the desert. I know any warrior who managed to kill a beetle will try his chance (I'm not exaggarating, forgive me but too many very very very very inexperienced warriors have attacked my magickers who learned to become the hell itself)
Let's imagine the pressure became even stronger. It's nearly impossible to interact with an ungemmed person. Then, all crafting subguilds would go 'poof' at first.. Don't think any mage around likes hoarding coins by woodworking or stonecrafting. If that doesn't let you interact, a subguild is useless to me. Bard? Linguist? Bah.. All gemmers would start becoming scavengers/hunters/thugs etc. The amount of more agreessive mages would increase dramatically. Currently, as far as I know there are only <a number which is really low> mages who can be called a warmage around Allanak. But if you can interact only with sharpened wood, bone or obsidian, why to make class X which's rather used for spying purposes? No mage would dare setting foot outside before branching X, then Y, then Z just in case. And then... sorrily I don't think a battle - even a very well emoted battle - is not good RP if you immobilize your victim in moments. It's not even RP. It's the clash of skills consisting of '0's and '1's for a brief moment only.
I will never stop playing mages. I play rangers, merchants and mages, so since I got my first karma 33% of my chars are mages. Press mages harder, I will have to make more agreessive mages - a lot of people will have to and there will be more mages with auras of invulnerability killing first, asking questions later.
As I tried to persuade the playerbase many times in past posts, mages should have a use. That'll make the game high-fantasy? So be it. Everything evolves including games. It's for sure better than a gameworld where you come across three suk-krathis and then die to an elkran in one single day. Let them find pearls for you and then spend the money getting drunk instead of getting forced to kill three PCs including yours on their way to foraging a bit of granite and finding out raiding is much more profitable.
.....
So, the choice belongs to the playerbase. They try to find uses for mages where it's possible - of course Tuluk's remaining 'no no' to mages is good for the game, there should be tasks for mages hard to accomplish like foraging branches for Allanaki merchants - and mages will manage to show their mundane personality drinking, playing Kruth or izdari and seeking lovers, or they become harsher on mages and all mages will become invincible by raw power and/or politics.
This topic does seem to be wandering a bit. On the topic of sorcerors, any class can be killed, including a sorceror. Even sorcerors have their weak moments. You could easily argue that Tempars are amoung the most powerful magical classes out there, yet they die right and left. I am not equating sorcerors with templars, yet there are corollaries you can draw from compairing them. The difference I see is one of access. A templar is always around, always availible to be watched and plotted against. A sorceror on the other hand pops in, does his thing and dissapears back to his nice comfy hiddy hole, or worse yet, infrequently logs in. This makes it near impossible to plot against one with any degree of predictablity.
On the issue of how much they affect the game, I would argue that it is not near as much as is stated. When I play a mundane, oocly I have little or no concern about a sorc ruining my day, much less whacking my character. I just haven't seen it happen. The people at risk from sorcerors are those people in a position to be a risk to them, namly up and coming magickers. Like was stated, they are the highest karma possible characters, are sorcerors really out of hand? I just don't see the problem.
I've had an elementalist pc kill a sorc before.
And I know my psi could have killed a sorc.
Anyone can die to another pc--sorcs aren't invincible.
I'm mostly with LoD on this..
I'm definitely of the opinion that mageling characters should have a hard time, a very hard time considering the level of power that's available to them.
HotDancer
Quote from: "RunningMountain"Straw-man? What is that?
here's a real answer:
a straw man argument is when some one takes the concept your talking about, twists it into something different and more easily defeated, and then defeats it. Using outlandish examples only slightly related to the original concept is an example of this, though this case is also related to the logical fallacy of "non sequitur" for "does not follow."
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~lilyth/strawman.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29I suggested this:
We are here to have fun.
PC-centric plots involve more PCs than non-PC-centric.
When PCs are involved, they are having fun.
Therefore: we should have more pc-centric plots so that we have more fun.
CRW suggested this:
We are here to have fun.
Playing a sorc is fun.
When PCs are playing sorcs, they are having fun.
Therefore: we should all be sorcs!!
So while the logical fallacy is non sequitur, it's setting up his strawman argument against having more PC centric plots.
And of course, this whole thing is a derail, which is why I didn't retort to CRW, i just wanted to explain the concepts since runningmountain asked and got silly responses.
and apologies to any Philosophy majors who have even more precise definitions of these concepts, I've only got enough to minor in it.
Last RPT I was in, only one fricken Pc died. And it was because of magick. So I don't like it. I loved that PC.
On the note of this thread though, I have heard of, or seen a possible 7 magickers. These ones didn't look too weak also.
One of my most long-lived characters (150 days played) died an emoteless, brutal and quick death to a mage. Yet I have absolutely no problems with how powerful they are, or the proliferation (or lack thereof) of mages.
See, the thing is, everyone, no matter how well established, skilled, or cunning has a match out there somewhere, NPC or PC. That's one of the things I like about Armageddon, and one of the things I think it's important to learn to accept. Yes, you sink a lot of time and effort into creating a PC and get very attatched to them, but the important part is the journey, not the destination - play your character to the hilt while you have them, and enjoy the fond memories when they are finally gone.
Everyone dies in Armageddon. Get used it.
Hurry up, somebody Archive Delirium's post.
No joke, I feel exactly the same way.
Twenty 'sid says Delirium makes the strongest magicker her karma will allow, now.
Sure, everyone dies, Delirium. Thanks for letting us know about that. At least you made it to 150 days. Who cares if a character living that long died? You had your time and lived long enough, it's those who are just starting out, and can't get a nose in front of surviving because of magick. They take the worst of it.
they should join a clan, then, that way they can die to magickers when they're middle-aged and successful, what you termed as "long enough."
Quote from: "Agent_137"Twenty 'sid says Delirium makes the strongest magicker her karma will allow, now.
Bzzt.
Thanks for the twenty sid.
Quote from: "Delirium"Quote from: "Agent_137"Twenty 'sid says Delirium makes the strongest magicker her karma will allow, now.
Bzzt.
Thanks for the twenty sid.
Psionicist.
Quote from: "Agent_137"they should join a clan, then, that way they can die to magickers when they're middle-aged and successful, what you termed as "long enough."
Unfortunately, this seems to be the only solution that would work. Clans tend to barf out some pretty long lived successful PCs.
Delirium's point is a good one. It's something I had to go through when my first beloved character died. Anyway, yes, there are lots of magickers everywhere. I play an outdoors, non-clanned character, and I've yet to have one blow me apart. It might happen tomorrow. Great. My 'rinthi PC died to an almost insta-kill backstab from another PC. There's a lot of assassins in the 'rinth and it's just a matter of time before they blow people away. We've all had character's get scooped up and mercilessly killed by a templar or deemed to die by some noble house's militia, too. It's all the same. If people want to play magickers, I don't really see the beef. There's a lot of magickers out there. Fair enough to say you don't like this fact, but I really wouldn't expect it to change, nor would I assume anyone who disagrees with you is playing high karma magickers.
About three years or four years ago, when I began playing, I created a verry verry boring warrior character. It did a lot of crappy shit, he hunted in the 'rinth, etc etc. I was a total newb, even more then I am now. But then suddenly and for no clear reason, a templar walked in and pretty much force initiated the chara into the Dragon's Arm. Literally, my warrior was sitting in Trader's Inn chatting with some aid, a Templar walked inn, asked me if I wanted to be a member of the militia, then tossed me the cloak and recruited me. Then he told me that I must be ready for a war and walked off. That's it ... it took me a few hours to realize there's a templar's quarters somewhere in Allanak.
The reason this happened is not because my roleplay was so superb, the Templar went outside of recruiting procedures, to recruit my chara, the true reason was that there was an upcoming war between 'Naki and Tuluki war, and Templarate was gathering every able bodied pc to toss it into their massive RPT.
Well, I missed the RPT, I didnt intentionally log off or anything, I just ... didnt login for a couple of days, and when I did log in, my chara was the 'only' dragon's arm pc alive. I came up with some story about being ordered to walk around the villages, gathering recruits and missing the war. But my chara AND me as controller, were riddled with a severe case of survivor's guilt. I regretted, and still regret missing that RPT even though I 'KNEW', it would cause the chara's death. Anyway, I was a newb, so I jumped off the shield wall because I could no longer endure that warrior's continued existence. Even though he was 'in' the shit, nobody to supervise him, absolute twink, cool crimflag abilities. Everyone coming to me for favors, afterall ... I was the only militia man around. And the Templar didnt bother telling me there are some kind of special militia docs or whatever. There was no GDB then.
After that chara I quit for a long long while. Got back only like ... half a year ago tops.
What does that have to do with anything, Folker?
It has to do with a notion of logging off from RPTs, aswell as magical RPTs not being worth it if it's almost guaranteed that their PCs will die to a bunch of NPCs. The fact is, that I knew that if I attented the RPT, my chara would die, and I still regretted miserably that I missed it. I am positive it will be the same for the majority. Yes, you may think that this rpt that got your PC killed was not worthy of the time spent on that PC, but I'm sure you'll regret missing that RPT, even if it saved your PC.
Ruh roh. Battle of the titans.
Be nice, guys.
Personally, I like being chased by defilers. It adds spice and flavor to my day. I would be very happy to be chased by defilers every day of the week. And I like getting lost in sandstorms (well, no).
After a while it can get to feel like everyone is on an equal footing in Zalanthas. If you know the right strings to pull, it's almost impossible to get yourself killed by a templar (unless you're a defiler or tried to kill him or whatever.) This sort of homogeneity gets dull. I don't want to play a game where everyone's on the same level, or at least in reach of everyone else's level - that's not Zalanthian.
Magickers can be the ultimate un-leveller of playingfield. If you're not a top magicker PC yourself, there's next to nothing you can personally do to stop a top magicker from taking you out. That sort of ultimate dread is good.
Quote from: "RunningMountain"Unfortunately, this seems to be the only solution that would work. Clans tend to barf out some pretty long lived successful PCs.
IMO mostly because they have rules basically amount to "Don't be stupid, stupid!"
QuoteIMO mostly because they have rules basically amount to "Don't be stupid, stupid!"
Heh. What are the three quickest ways for a lowbie to guarantee her own death in/near Allanak?
- Leave the city without a buff, experienced escort.
- Screw around in the 'rinth.
- Break the law.
What are the three things most clans forbid, to the disgust of many new players? ...
Quote from: "bloodfromstone"Delirium's point is a good one. It's something I had to go through when my first beloved character died. Anyway, yes, there are lots of magickers everywhere. I play an outdoors, non-clanned character, and I've yet to have one blow me apart. It might happen tomorrow. Great. My 'rinthi PC died to an almost insta-kill backstab from another PC. There's a lot of assassins in the 'rinth and it's just a matter of time before they blow people away. We've all had character's get scooped up and mercilessly killed by a templar or deemed to die by some noble house's militia, too. It's all the same. If people want to play magickers, I don't really see the beef. There's a lot of magickers out there. Fair enough to say you don't like this fact, but I really wouldn't expect it to change, nor would I assume anyone who disagrees with you is playing high karma magickers.
Yeah that said, I come to realize it's truth, magickers are no less twinked then nobles using their half-giant guards to subdue people. It's just another insta death ability given to trusted players. Sure magickers can be abused, like npc guards can be abused. Yeah at times there are too many, other times not enough. Balance is great, but it's hard to come by. So yeah I guess once again I must concede to let it happen, until I make my uber buffed drov elementalist and blow you all to hell.
There is no comparison between a templar and sorcerer, or noble and sorcerer.
Sure a templar has a lot of way to kill you if he wants. But he is restricted. He is inside of the city walls, he has politics to attend to etc.
Same as a noble. They have a lot to do beside going around subduing people and killing them. I never heard of a noble actually running around getting people subdued anyway. That would cost them more than you would think.
But a sorcerer? What does a sorcerer have to do? They do not have to attend to politics. They do not have problem with being low on coin, they do not have problem with anything at all. And now, what differs them from all other pcs is that, they have a world filled with people who would have them killed, and also, they have enough power to blow all those "I-hate-you, you-should-die" people up.
I am with LoD in this, that I do not like high magick beings, or RPTs formed around that. Like a year ago, there was a nice RPT involving a group of raiders to hold a fortress of Allanak. It was a low scale and it was an AWESOME idea to do something like that. A templar at that time was hiring up people to make an assault to take the fortress back. There were people hired to blow the front gate of the fortress and people to fight their way in afterwards. That was one good example of nearly no magick RPT.
Or three years ago, when I was still a newbie I remember there were some RPTs, or plots happening with little to no magick in them. There were active raider groups, and everytime Byn goes out for an escort trip, it would mean meeting with one of the raider groups.
Anyway. As I said, I am with LoD in this. I would take any low magick RPT over a high magick one. Though I do not know if there are too many sorcerers or not (I have not encountered), I would actually like the idea to make them NPC only and never be in the heat of things (such as Tektolness), or at least, I would like to see them special app only. But that is just me.
Quote from: "Ghost"
But a sorcerer? What does a sorcerer have to do? They do not have to attend to politics. They do not have problem with being low on coin, they do not have problem with anything at all. ... they have enough power to blow all those "I-hate-you, you-should-die" people up.
Ghost, as much as I love you, man, you are wrong on this.
Quote from: "moab"Ghost, as much as I love you, man, you are wrong on this.
Hrmm, that's a good arguement -- I think I'll use it. Moab, you're wrong.
Doesn't that sound silly? I agree that Ghost's statement that sorcerers "...do not have a problem with anything at all" is a bit of an exaggeration, but compared to the trials and tribulations of the average guild, they really don't. With enough water and time, sorcerers can go into hiding and emerge a powerful and terrible force without having interacted with a single person.
Quote from: "Xygax"The problem, as you suggest, emerges when a powerful entity suddenly emerges into the world (or at least, the emergence appears sudden because of the long, quiet gestation period) and wanders around wreaking havoc on mundane players and organizations without any purpose or focus. And yes, it does sometimes happen. And yes, I think it's a problem worth discussing.
No politics, no forced interaction, no built in system of checks and balances. The sorcerer is one of the only powerful roles (i.e. noble, militia, templars) that does not have limitations built into the environment. Templars, nobles and militia all have superiors, both PC and NPC, that will hold them accountable for their actions. Now, perhaps some sorcerers are approached by beings that threaten them with the same, but it's not something that's inherently part of their world.
If there are no people that will accept the average sorcerer for who they are, and they will only ever be hunted down and killed as soon as they are known, then what possibilities stand before many of the players to assume the mantle of a sorc other than wanton death and destruction until some force greater than themselves, or often their own mistakes, is able to take them down? It seems a mistake to give a class, made shallow and limited in their inability to interact with the world by the documentation, the highest potential for power.
Quote from: "Xygax"My overall feeling on this, though, as I mentioned before, is that at the point where a sorcerer crosses that imaginary line from annoyingly powerful to a force to be reckoned with, their goals also should shift. There should be more for them to do in the game than prey on the mundane PCs of other players. For the most part, a creatue so powerful as that simply shouldn't have any interest in the day-to-day life of even Zalanthas' greatest warrior.
As Xygax mentions, once a sorcerer reaches a certain level of power then the trivial lives of men shouldn't represent much of a concern to them or their master plans. I would guess that one of the issues is a lack of development for that upper echelon of power. There are only so many PC powers at that level, so who else do you HAVE to interact with once you reach the level of power where you have little to fear from the everyday person walking around? Templars always have something going on that merits their attentions, and while they can be extremely powerful, they are still required to keep a visible presence which lets the world interact with them.
Consider if templars were allowed to simply roam wherever they wished, invisible and protected my magicks, destroying people in the tablelands, grasslands or other remote areas because they could. Would be object? Would the Imms object? Probably. And why? Because those powerful roles are monitored and given strict guidelines as to what they should and shouldn't be doing. It'd be nice to see all powerful guilds given this same system of checks and balances.
-LoD
Ok, LoD, I'm confused. Where did Xygax post that stuff? Is there another thread I'm missing? You're quoting him, but I didn't remember him posting in this thread, so .. where'd he say that stuff? I'd like to read his post in its entirety.
Please help a lost and confused Shroud of Death.
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=146515#146515
Quote from: "LoD"[Hrmm, that's a good arguement -- I think I'll use it. Moab, you're wrong.
Well, to be fair, I used this argument because currently I
know Ghost is wrong and don't really want to post anything more about it. I know from first hand experience every time I log in.
Is that better?
To be fair, are you or whoever is playing that sort of character playing realistically? Not only in not twinking the code, but also in taking the world into account?
If so, then you get your point, but consider the question carefully. I could play a hunter and never go hungry, be overflowing in silks and elite swords and such and do it within the realms of the code and truthfully without twinking at all, but it might not be realistic. Is that powerful character who never has to worry about anything following the same precepts of realism?
I think that's a good point, 7DV.
Playing realistically as you can is important - and doing so generally means that whomever you are, you're not going to hole up in some dusty hole building your "forever DOOM" power.
You gotta interact at some point.
The interaction is where it's at anyway.
As for Sorcs "not having anything to worry about" they got tons. I mean think of it - every person who might even catch a wiff of them may well be looking to make themselves famous. Additionally unless someone recently added "Summon Obsidian" and "Summon Whatever Object You Like" to the Sorc spell list, they will have needs that can't be met without working with someone.
And the interplay there is what makes them just like every other character. All of the guilds - all of them - put their pants on one leg at a time.
and after that, the sorcs make gold records?
Quote from: "moab"
You gotta interact at some point.
While I agree you need/should to interact, "realistically" you don't absolutely have to. You have to eat, you have to drink. You don't have to be social. While uncommon, people can and do isolate themselves in RL and don't interact with others.
Understand, we don't encourage this in the game - we encourage people to mix it up and interact with other players. I'm just pointing out that it's not unrealistic to be a hermit/loner under certain situations.
Quote from: "Halaster"While I agree you need/should to interact, "realistically" you don't absolutely have to. You have to eat, you have to drink. You don't have to be social. While uncommon, people can and do isolate themselves in RL and don't interact with others.
This is definitely one of my issues with the sorc class; how easy it is to play a hermit until such a time that one feels powerful enough to survive "interactions" with other people. Only magick classes have the ability to access powers capable of killing other players with 0 potential interaction. They can enter a room a fragile creature and emerge a proficient killer without risking anything other than being stumbled upon by someone.
Assassins aren't allowed to sit in a room with a sparring dummy and increase their backstab. Warriors cannot increase their disarm and weapon proficiences against their shadow. Rangers cannot shoot archery targets and expect significant skill improvement. Pick pockets cannot steal from themselves and master the art. In fact, all of these things would be considered bad form and poor play.
Yet sorcerers are capable of assuming most of their powers in just such a manner, and I consider it a flaw that discourages interaction and realistic play. If they at least had to seek out a mentor to learn new spells it would force some degree of interaction at earlier stages of their development. There should be more risk associated with their reward.
-LoD
It's an interesting point, LoD. I think this is probably pretty well-controlled by the staff.
First - I'm betting that few Sorcs make it to any level of real power.
Of those that do, I suspect they are monitored pretty closely by the staff.
Players allowed into trusted roles - be it magick or otherwise are closely monitored by the staff, so these characters are on a pretty short leash, really.
Quote from: "LoD"Quote from: "Halaster"While I agree you need/should to interact, "realistically" you don't absolutely have to. You have to eat, you have to drink. You don't have to be social. While uncommon, people can and do isolate themselves in RL and don't interact with others.
What about gemmed magickers who spam cast in a temple to max then go out into the world to wreak havok? I think that's just as worse, and happens a lot too.
Quote from: "RunningMountain"Quote from: "LoD"Quote from: "Halaster"While I agree you need/should to interact, "realistically" you don't absolutely have to. You have to eat, you have to drink. You don't have to be social. While uncommon, people can and do isolate themselves in RL and don't interact with others.
What about gemmed magickers who spam cast in a temple to max then go out into the world to wreak havok? I think that's just as worse, and happens a lot too.
So you have watched all gemmed in their temples to critique their play? And you can judge that just because a gemmed character you see out on the wastes is powerful that means they've twinked their PCs? How do you not know that character doesnt have 10-20 days and that's why they might be more powerful than a 5 day ranger or other mid-powered PC?
Don't assume you immediately know the history of every PC you encounter. I trust that imms would monitor for that type of behavior and attempt to stop it, why don't you put some faith in staff as well? And if you do clearly see this sort of behavior than email the mud, but if you just suspect it then you're probably dead wrong.
I wonder if everyone posting in this thread could say whether or not they have experience playing sorcerors and gemmed magickers. I don't, that's why I'm staying out of it. But I'd like to know who is posting from actual experience and who is posting from speculation.
I've played a few magickers, both gemmed and not gemmed, and interacted at some length with a couple of Sorcerer characters.
I completely disagree with RunningMountain that gemmed magickers are unbalanced in a manner similar to sorcerers, but I don't want to elaborate on that. Suffice to say that no one elementalist can do everything, and therein lies the balance.
Besides, it's all about who plays smarter and who's better prepared for the battle anyway.
I have played a few magickers as well and interacted with higher level magickers including sorcerers.
Also I have been PK'ed three times, all by magickers. All of them were perfectly IC and for the most part well done. With all of the PK's I could have avoided them had I been smarter about my play. I have never had a magicker do anything unreasonable to me and the sorcs I encountered behaved quite reasonably considering their power. Each encounter was some of the most enjoyment and frustration I have gleaned from the game.
Allanaki gate guards, that's another story.
Quote from: "Annoyed"Quote from: "RunningMountain"Quote from: "LoD"Quote from: "Halaster"While I agree you need/should to interact, "realistically" you don't absolutely have to. You have to eat, you have to drink. You don't have to be social. While uncommon, people can and do isolate themselves in RL and don't interact with others.
What about gemmed magickers who spam cast in a temple to max then go out into the world to wreak havok? I think that's just as worse, and happens a lot too.
So you have watched all gemmed in their temples to critique their play? And you can judge that just because a gemmed character you see out on the wastes is powerful that means they've twinked their PCs? How do you not know that character doesnt have 10-20 days and that's why they might be more powerful than a 5 day ranger or other mid-powered PC?
Don't assume you immediately know the history of every PC you encounter. I trust that imms would monitor for that type of behavior and attempt to stop it, why don't you put some faith in staff as well? And if you do clearly see this sort of behavior than email the mud, but if you just suspect it then you're probably dead wrong.
Heh. The fact that I've talked to people who do it, prove that it happens. So I already know people do it.
As a note about magickers practicing, based on what I've seen it tends to be more of a solitary practice then one of interaction. That isn't to say that magickers don't cast together, RP learning from each other, and so on, because I'd say most interact at some point with others in just that way. However the majority of the time spent practicing, is a solitary art.
This isn't a large surprise based on how we've set up the gameworld to treat magickers. They are ostrasized by most of the PC population, which prevents them from hanging out with you practicing their spells. Magick itself isn't welcomed with open arms in most cases. Additionally, the act of using magicks isn't very conducive to learning it, even if you're accepted.
No templar wants to take that gemmed krathi out who is still only mediocre at flamestrike. Who wants to see, cast, fail, cast, fail, cast, little damage. Or that whiran that starts wandering with his invisibility at low levels. Uh oh, here comes a aggro baddie, fail, fail, fail, dead. So, unlike a runner in the byn, who learn together as a unit and can suck individually, but still have a great time doing missions, magickers are pretty much SOL.
I'd love to see this change, to make magickers more useful as they progress along their slow path to power, so that everyone else has an opportunity to share in their "experience" of growing. So that they can fail, and not die, have events that change their focus, and what not. I don't have any solutions to this currently, solutions that provide this opportunity but don't force it.
Until then, we'll likely see what we have today.
I like Dak's post.
I've played gemmed mages in the past and mildly enjoyed them. However, I once played a half-elf gemmed. That...was a big mistake. Unless you enjoy solo rp with a mage, I suggest not doing it. I was pretty much forced to sit within my temple and cast, cast, cast, and cast some more until a templar was ready to use me.
Very boring and stale. I'd admit to some degree that RM is right: some mages do spamcast all day. Perhaps in the future this can be remedied. I, for one, hope so.
During first half-year of my gameplay, I thought there is really little magick in-game and I really really enjoyed it. Then, after a while of experience and learning where to look, I saw there are magickers here and there.
Now, I think magick density in game is good, though I still would like to see less magickers in game.
"For me"
Less supernatural = More fun.
(i.e. you can either send a whiran to spot a estate, or you may send a party composed of a ranger, warrior, a couple of sneakers)
----------------------
About sorcerers.. With that power, I think they are watched by IMMs even more then some special roles like nobles, templars.
I think magick is too easily learned. By making it more useful, you make it more in the scenes. As I have seen, and heard it, by the time they get to 10 days of playing time, they can wipe out five people by casting spells that affect the whole group. Sure, that is interaction, but it isn't good when they can do that everytime they try.
As a warrior, it takes maybe 20 days of playing time before you can killed three moderately skilled mundane attackers.
As a magicker, I have seen a magicker at 5 or so days do practically the same damn thing.
Also, magickers just seem to branch a whole helluvalot more. I see new skills added a whole lot more for magickers than mundane characters. That has a natural habit of unbalancing the classes.
What may make it easier for magickers, is that they are outcasted. So they cast in the morning, hang out in a bar in the evenning, cast in the morning, hang out in the bar in the evenning. So they get damn good, real damn quick. And they don't slow down.
Mundane characters don't have the same amount of skills to practice, but they still practice the same amount of time. There are no nul powers for sap, backstab, slashing. Not to mention those are blacklisted as practicable skills. However, skills that can be cast 1-3 times can kill Pcs, and those are Ok to practice.
I have also heard of older magickers practicing various skills all day long IC. That isn't bad? Sounds bad.
This is all my point of view, though.
And tell me if I am wrong and this is balanced.
Now, take a magicker and a mundane character that have both played for 5 days. Make them practice the same amount of time. Morning until midday. After the first five days is up. Who is more powerful? The magicker, everytime.
Now, continue this on. That magicker takes a break and leaves for five days, the fighter continues to train and train and train for five days PT.
The magicker comes back, practices for five more days PT, the fighter practices for five days PT.
Who is more powerful? The magicker, everytime.
That doesn't sound balanced.
Armageddon is not meant to be a 'balanced' game.
Then why have set guilds and subguilds?
There should be some balance to it.
The game is not supposed to be balanced in terms of magick friend. Overall, the game balances out in other ways.
Warriors can simply subdue/bash/sap a magicker and negate their potential. It all balances out in some form or fashion.
Your argument that magick unbalances the game, though, is not applicable to this discussion. Magick is supposed to be powerful. It's supposed to be scary. It's supposed to allow the player more potential than a meager warrior.
Doesn't make it very fun either. When a 10 day old magicker can come along and wipe the floor with your 15-20 day old born fighter either.
Editted to add, the last skill mundane characters got was in 2002. Still, magickers can get that one also.
Besides that, the last skill a main, mundane guild got was... Oh wait. I couldn't find one. Someone help me out?
Quote from: "Maybe42or54"Doesn't make it very fun either. When a 10 day old magicker can come along and wipe the floor with your 15-20 day old born fighter either.
Thems the breaks? Stop fighting magickers. Run. BE AFRAID. They're powerful for a reason. No warrior, IMO, should realistically fight a magicker unless they have a damned good reason. Every time I'm accosted by one, I either a) run or b) do
exactly what they want me to for fear of being slaughtered.
If you use the code correctly, a warrior
can beat a magicker. I've done it.
Ok, this kind of discussion is going very well. I haven't seen any flaming, which is very very nice for a change. However, it's going on 10 pages, and I'm starting to see some repetitions of ideas. So I'd like to ask ya'all to wrap it up. If you have any final thoughts, please post them within the next day or so.
That said, I wanted to add, some of you have made compelling arguments, and we staff have been discussing this topic as well. Whether there's any changes made, only time will tell.
Keep up the good work!
Ashyom
All magickers, particularly gemmed, have weaknesses. They can't fight worth a damn for one and all their amazing powers drain mana. A warrior can pick up a sword and fight with it for a RL hour in a massive battle killing wave after wave if he's good enough. A magicker has a handful of good spells to get off in combat (some elementalists barely have any combat worthy spells) then is completely drained of mana and basically useless.
Magickers are very powerful when they're prepared. When they're caught off guard they're about as easy to kill as merchants. So I suggest the next time you see a magicker in the wastes you either run or you hide, and then when they're looking weak after casting a few spells you sneak up and attack. But if you charge head on at that krathi expect to get burned.
To Dak's post: I agree. Magickers being such a solo profession and the system of learning spells does tend to lead to solo practice. All elementalist classes have certain spells that are crucial to their use in a group, without them it's sort of like having a Byn runner who can't ride a kank. They're more or less just dead weight. Sadly I don't see any way to fix the disparity between the powerless beginnings and powerful end result of magickers. The mid-power level of being a magicker seems to be rather short in my limited experience. (speaking for elementalists, not sorcs)
Jakahri brings up a good point: the only reason people complain that a magicker killed them, in most cases, is because they didn't display the fear of magickers that should be common. Sure, every player knows that lowbie magickers are easy to kill. Failing one spell, they're half-way to dead and have negligible combat skills to back things up. I feel that the powerful magickers out there make things right by finally convincing some of you that magickers can be VERY powerful and maybe some of you will finally start roleplaying fear instead of derision and bravado when faced with a lightning throwing fury of mystical arts.
I'd rather not see this thread closed anytime soon until people have said what they want to say, Ashyom.
As Delirium points out, though, the guilds are not intended to be balanced with each other. A guild has a role, so to speak, and we give that guild skills and abilities based on that role. We're fully aware that the guilds are unbalanced, and that's perfectly fine and acceptable to the staff. Everyone knows a sorcerer is more powerful than a pick-pocket or a warrior - and they should be based on the way we set up the game.
Quote from: "Maybe42or54"
Now, take a magicker and a mundane character that have both played for 5 days. Make them practice the same amount of time. Morning until midday. After the first five days is up. Who is more powerful? The magicker, everytime.
Now, continue this on. That magicker takes a break and leaves for five days, the fighter continues to train and train and train for five days PT.
The magicker comes back, practices for five more days PT, the fighter practices for five days PT.
Who is more powerful? The magicker, everytime.
I'd like to point out that if this is how you view the game you're
completely missing the point. It's not a race, nor a competition to see who's more powerful at day 5, 10, or 15. The point is to pick a role and play it. That role may be a weak merchant, or a sneaky pick-pocket, or a powerful mage. They're all valid and good roles to play. The game is about developing a character - both skills and personality. It's not a race to the top. There is no top. You cannot win. Don't try. Instead, view characters as various roles in the whole game and give them a try and don't worry about if that mage over there is more powerful than your warrior - because he is, and that won't change.
My advice on how to have fun is stop comparing yourself to others - stop comparing the guilds to each other. And just play to have fun in the role you choose as it is.
From my experience (2 sorcs, a whole bunch of gemmed and non gemmed) there are essentially two spells that I can think of I might even consider unbalanced. Unfortunately, doubly so if you have them at the same time.
So many of the perceptions I have seen are just so wrong. The only horribly unbalanced magicking guild out there is sorcerers, and they are supposed to be that horribly unbalanced. And guess what, they still die.
Quote from: "Halaster"
My advice on how to have fun is stop comparing yourself to others - stop comparing the guilds to each other. And just play to have fun in the role you choose as it is.
Who said I wasn't having fun? These are just my perceptions. Most magickers I have seen IG go about life with a military schedule in mind. Atleast when they are supposedly "Weak." They practice from this time to this time. Or practice this skill so many times before they quit. On a daily basis. Usually that basis evolves around when it is time when the ginka decides they can raise their stats again.
By making the magickers more useful, you make the mundane classes less useful. Why have a group of 5+ bynners go kill something when you can pay two magickers to make themselves invisible and go blast the hell out of the target? That really doesn't sound like the greater good of RPing there.
QuoteWhy have a group of 5+ bynners go kill something when you can pay two magickers to make themselves invisible and go blast the hell out of the target? That really doesn't sound like the greater good of RPing there.
The greater good of RPing comes about by the choice of the person hiring them. Hire the 5 accepted Byn, or the two hated, but admittedly more powerful (at least when working together) magickers. Nevermind the two magickers somehow coming together and figuring out they are more powerful together than a unit of Byn in the first place.
Quote from: "Maybe42or54"By making the magickers more useful, you make the mundane classes less useful. Why have a group of 5+ bynners go kill something when you can pay two magickers to make themselves invisible and go blast the hell out of the target? That really doesn't sound like the greater good of RPing there.
Because that just happens, so often :roll:
Where magickers are overpowered skill wise, they're underpowered society wise. It balances out.
Well John, are you saying it wont happen more and more when Magickers become more and more useful? I think it will.
Quote from: "Maybe42or54"And tell me if I am wrong and this is balanced.
Now, take a magicker and a mundane character that have both played for 5 days. Make them practice the same amount of time. Morning until midday. After the first five days is up. Who is more powerful? The magicker, everytime.
Now, continue this on. That magicker takes a break and leaves for five days, the fighter continues to train and train and train for five days PT.
The magicker comes back, practices for five more days PT, the fighter practices for five days PT.
Who is more powerful? The magicker, everytime.
That doesn't sound balanced.
Umm, I'll be more than happy to confirm that you're absolutely wrong.
Some spells have, in the past required someone with mundane skills to
assist the caster or be entirely useless. Other spells are useful only in a
very narrow margin of circumstances, or with spells the player will not
see in their character for at least a branch, if not a branch-of-a-branch.
I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. Magickers at
5 days' play are still struggling and far from able to prove themselves
even to a house/templar willing to hire them. A 5 day mundaner has
generally joined a clan by then as a full member and might even be
enjoying a promotion by then.
It won't happen because people don't hire magickers. People avoid magickers.
You still seem to be going on about an issue of balance. Two magickers are more powerful than two bynners, no fair! Well, one templar can be more powerful than those five bynners too. One half-giant or mul, in the right situations, can be too. One sorceror or psion, ditto.
The aim of Armageddon is not to be the biggest or buffest and as such any sort of balancing comparison is inappropriate. There is no risk of a wash of magickers coming in and replacing all the 'mundanes' because they're 'better at everything.'
Magickers are supposed to be incredibly powerful and incredibly dangerous. They are not supposed to exist on the same level as 'mundanes.' The only problem with having too many magickers is that they're simply not supposed to be the focus of the game - that having that many powerful characters running around removes the mystery and 'specialness.' I don't think we've reached that point yet.
I can think of a spell for each magicker guild that when cast on another, makes you useless. I think that is inbalance. But as was stated, inbalance isn't necessarily a bad thing all the time. But magickers are extremely powerful, and in my opinion can get too powerful just by casting spells and failing. Instead of roleplaying to get their power.
I think magick gets way too much attention, and combat is slowly deteriorating into just being what it is and that may never change.
-R
Not to mention, magick spells do not replace mundane skills. There are
quite a few skills in each character class that a magicker is never going
to see and never going to have access to.
Quote from: "Intrepid"Not to mention, magick spells do not replace mundane skills. There are
quite a few skills in each character class that a magicker is never going
to see and never going to have access to.
That is true about every class, so it isn't anything special about magickers.
Quote from: "RunningMountain"I can think of a spell for each magicker guild that when cast on another, makes you useless. I think that is inbalance. But as was stated, inbalance isn't necessarily a bad thing all the time. But magickers are extremely powerful, and in my opinion can get too powerful just by casting spells and failing. Instead of roleplaying to get their power.
I think magick gets way too much attention, and combat is slowly deteriorating into just being what it is and that may never change.
You are also someone of such extreme bias that you believed (until an
imm corrected you) that magickers constituted half the player populace.
You were wrong about that. Couldn't you possibly re-examine your other
views in relation to that as well?
Quote from: "Maybe42or54"Quote from: "Intrepid"Not to mention, magick spells do not replace mundane skills. There are
quite a few skills in each character class that a magicker is never going
to see and never going to have access to.
That is true about every class, so it isn't anything special about magickers.
Yes, but some spells were made with certain skills in mind that said mage
has no access to. Usually, a mundane class is put together with all the
skills in a nice package that requires no one else for what they do.
Quote from: "Intrepid"Quote from: "RunningMountain"I can think of a spell for each magicker guild that when cast on another, makes you useless. I think that is inbalance. But as was stated, inbalance isn't necessarily a bad thing all the time. But magickers are extremely powerful, and in my opinion can get too powerful just by casting spells and failing. Instead of roleplaying to get their power.
I think magick gets way too much attention, and combat is slowly deteriorating into just being what it is and that may never change.
You are also someone of such extreme bias that you believed (until an
imm corrected you) that magickers constituted half the player populace.
You were wrong about that. Couldn't you possibly re-examine your other
views in relation to that as well?
I'm not bias. And I don't think half the player populace is playing a magicker, I think around 40-50% of the players on every night are playing a character with magick capabilities. That obviously can change between each night, depending on the player. But I know its higher then 5-10 players every night like others have insisted.
Quote from: "RunningMountain"
I'm not bias. And I don't think half the player populace is playing a magicker, I think around 40-50% of the players on every night are playing a character with magick capabilities. That obviously can change between each night, depending on the player. But I know its higher then 5-10 players every night like others have insisted.
So...when an imm is one of the people insisting, does that mean he's
wrong and you're right? What source could you cite for evidence that
could possibly be more distinct than an imm's ability to see all players
logged in as well as their classes?
I'm not trying to rag you here, I just don't see how Morgenes is wrong and
you're right...? Nor can I see how this is anything but bias.
I can admit when I'm wrong. But a glance at the class list one night isn't going to be exact. Like I said some players don't play every night, but when the magick people get on, they get on!
Quote from: "RunningMountain"I'm not bias. And I don't think half the player populace is playing a magicker, I think around 40-50% of the players on every night are playing a character with magick capabilities. That obviously can change between each night, depending on the player. But I know its higher then 5-10 players every night like others have insisted.
No offense, buy I think I'll trust staff figures on this. Halaster has said it's far less.
My take: certainly magicker classes are far more powerful than others. This is fine, their power is moderated by the fact that they are outcast socially and even actively hunted in large areas of the world.
I also don't think, barring some huge world-changing event, that magickers will ever become more accepted or more actively employed than they are now.
For the record 1 in 6 players on tonight have some magickal ability.
Fine there's only a dozen on every night. I concur. I was just arguing even though I was wrong. (hey it's what I do)
The problem though is magick IS so powerful, yet you learn so easily with it. In my opinion, you shouldn't be able to get so powerful with a magicker/sorcerer/ without roleplay/logs and staff help. Because it's taking something powerful (magick) and making it easy to learn and easy to become powerful with. Whereas combat and all the other combat abilities (throw/kick/archery etc) which aren't as powerful as magick, take a lot longer.
Quote from: "Morgenes"For the record 1 in 6 players on tonight have some magickal ability.
Thanks, Morg. ;)
Those figures don't seem that bad to me. Say there's about 60 pcs on
tonight as the average. 10 pcs are mages of all stripes--sorcs included.
They're still in the vast minority, folks. It's not something to get worked
up over and claim it's damaging the game, because it's not. This is the
figure for the entire gameworld, including any mages hidin in the wastes,
in the Rinth, in one of the villages or walking among the masses in Tuluk
for that matter.
Well intrepid, If you log on and see all 7 magickers and only 10 mundane Pcs, then yea. that is way too much. Other pcs will log on and see 20 people and no magickers. I logged in yesterday and saw 4 mundane Pcs and 2 magickers. That's 50% to me. I'm not exaggerating.
May not be overall, but that is how they are to me. Magickers aren't spread out sometimes.
And Blind fighting was a new skill added for mundane fighters, so the ratio of new non-mundane to mundane new skills are alot:1. Not saying that is good or bad, but for a low magick game, it seems like a lot. When over half the guilds are magick related, seems like a lot.
Editted to add: When I last played in Allanak I would usually see 4-6 Magicker Pcs and 6-8 mundane ones Pcs.
Quote
My take: certainly magicker classes are far more powerful than others. This is fine, their power is moderated by the fact that they are outcast socially and even actively hunted in large areas of the world.
I also don't think, barring some huge world-changing event, that magickers will ever become more accepted or more actively employed than they are now.
Actively hunted? I think that's wrong to assume PCs are going out and actively hunting any magick-user right now. They're too strong.
There is a reason why magickers are karma based is we trust the players in these rolls to play them responsibly. You can argue to you're blue in the face about how you know this or that about them, but it doesn't change the fact that we've balanced the system by balancing access to them.
Life here and on Arm is not fair, anyone who tells you otherwise is selling you something.
Quote from: "Maybe42or54"And Blind fighting was a new skill added for mundane fighters, so the ratio of new non-mundane to mundane new skills are alot:1. Not saying that is good or bad, but for a low magick game, it seems like a lot. When over half the guilds are magick related, seems like a lot.
Have we already forgotten the watch skill? I'm hurt.
Quote from: "Maybe42or54"Well intrepid, If you log on and see all 7 magickers and only 10 mundane Pcs, then yea. that is way too much. Other pcs will log on and see 20 people and no magickers. I logged in yesterday and saw 4 mundane Pcs and 2 magickers. That's 50% to me. I'm not exaggerating.
May not be overall, but that is how they are to me. Magickers aren't spread out sometimes.
And Blind fighting was a new skill added for mundane fighters, so the ratio of new non-mundane to mundane new skills are alot:1. Not saying that is good or bad, but for a low magick game, it seems like a lot. When over half the guilds are magick related, seems like a lot.
Editted to add: When I last played in Allanak I would usually see 4-6 Magicker Pcs and 6-8 mundane ones Pcs.
You know, a lot of us have been waiting for years longer than the last
tweak to the combat system to get new spells and fixes to old spells. The
fact that they're coming in spades in the past year or so after years of
neglect does not illicit sympathy for the mundane classes in the slightest.
They'll get their turn, just as they always have.
As for the magickers being popular in Allanak, I can't say I blame them.
It's the largest pc area in game and has been for a long time. The mages
concentrate in Allanak, yes, and in public areas. Whereas the mundane
classes can flock anywhere, like the Rinth and mundane clanholds where
you might not find them to compare to their true and accurate numbers
to the mages in the city.
Maybe, instead of claiming the mages in Allanak are too many, you should
be asking the mundane pcs to come out of hiding? Both claims seem
equally reasonable, if you will.
Quote from: "Morgenes"There is a reason why magickers are karma based is we trust the players in these rolls to play them responsibly. You can argue to you're blue in the face about how you know this or that about them, but it doesn't change the fact that we've balanced the system by balancing access to them.
Life here and on Arm is not fair, anyone who tells you otherwise is selling you something.
Since the karma system is flawed, I think this needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Trust is so easy to put into text it seems. If you really knew how plenty of your karma-bearing players break rules and policies daily, it might not be so.
Quote from: "RunningMountain"Since the karma system is flawed, I think this needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Trust is so easy to put into text it seems. If you really knew how plenty of your karma-bearing players break rules and policies daily, it might not be so.
This takes me back full circle: Everyone else is wrong and you're right.
Definitely bias.
Quote from: "RunningMountain"Since the karma system is flawed, I think this needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Trust is so easy to put into text it seems. If you really knew how plenty of your karma-bearing players break rules and policies daily, it might not be so.
Flawed in your opinion, and I'm sure others, however as you well know there are other games out there. If you really hate the way this one is run, feel free to find another that'll meet your expectations.
Quote from: "Intrepid"Quote from: "RunningMountain"Since the karma system is flawed, I think this needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Trust is so easy to put into text it seems. If you really knew how plenty of your karma-bearing players break rules and policies daily, it might not be so.
This takes me back full circle: Everyone else is wrong and you're right.
Definitely bias.
Not everyone is wrong, just most people. I've played long enough and been one of the worst players of the game, (maybe I still am) but I know a lot of things too.
Quote from: "Morgenes"
Flawed in your opinion, and I'm sure others, however as you well know there are other games out there. If you really hate the way this one is run, feel free to find another that'll meet your expectations.
Hey, I love this game. I'm just trying to voice my opinion, and I fully respect yours. I just think it's flawed is all. I don't think the fact that magickers are karma-required makes it a viable solution to obviously a problem, since so many people are voicing their opinions on it.
Ok, I feel like everyone has had their say in the 13 pages of posts and we are now circling around and around.
If you have specific ideas on what needs to be changed can be mailed to mud@ginka.armageddon.org. For now this conversation is over.