So I was thinking today about the Plight of the Newbie in context of guilds.
Now, most newbies I've seen do best starting out as city-dwellers. But of the five city-dwelling classes, three of them implicity force our newbies into illegal activities.
So what I'm looking for here are ideas for a new guild that would be purely city-based but without the shadiness.
I'm on my way out the door for the next twelve hours or so, so I won't be responding, but I expect a long and thoughtful discussion about the time I come back!
And yes, I know people are going to say merchant, but merchants can be difficult to play too because crafting is a tough nut to crack for folks who don't know how to make travel cakes.
Yeah - but merchant / crafter combinations are really like five different classes right there.
It would be interesting to see a house aide class - a merchant without haggle and value maybe and getting something else instead.
Really, I think it a waste to play a merchant/crafter-subguild.
Perhaps it's my old sentiments of, "If I'll get it later, why get a crappy version of the skill now?"
Personally, merchant, no matter the subguild, is difficult to play as an independant...but as a city-based character that doesn't plan to get into combat, they're quite well enough off as they are.
Yes, crafting isn't the easiest thing to get the hang of, but they can slowly do so while pampering the noble they are aide too.
There is an "aide" subclass already: house servant.
I would like to see a basic Commoner guild for non-particular classes and for newbies that want a taste of everything.
The guild could have basic fighting abilities (on par with a Pickpocket), low-capped Haggle and Value, a good forage skill, high flee, low hide/sneak, specific bonuses for obsidian mining, lumberjacking and salt gathering, maybe an armor repair skill, and an ability to gain Listen and possibly even scan, and maybe knifemaking. Basically, a jack of all trades guild with no real focus, and perhaps the ability to pick two subguilds.
I think it could be very nice, and it would also help new players think that their ranger has to go out and explore.
Larrath brings up a good point about rangers. They don't have to be based outdoors. They can very easily be city based characters who know more about the outdoors and hunting. I personally had a ranger that ended up being a city based character, and I know that I am not the only one. They have skills that are very useful within the walls.
So...not too far off from what Bards were in the original D&D Dark Sun that this game is based on? (Minus the poisoning abilities of Dark Sun bards)
Quote from: "spawnloser"So...not too far off from what Bards were in the original D&D Dark Sun that this game is based on? (Minus the poisoning abilities of Dark Sun bards)
I know next to nothing about Dark Sun, and don't even really care to know that much. I just think it would be nice to be able to make a nobody character that wouldn't have to be absolutely useless in combat or unrealistically powerful. It would also give new players an easy place to start in, since the Commoner guild could be suitable for doing everything from Bynner/House Guard work to working as a crafter or something shadier.
AD&D bards were the Jack of all trades, master of none sorts of people.
Quote from: "spawnloser"AD&D bards were the Jack of all trades, master of none sorts of people.
That sounds like a Burglar in Armageddon though.
You said it, I didn't. ;)
Interesting thread, guys. Seems like it would be relatively easy to do, as far as the code goes, also.
Although I adore my current character, I likely would have picked this option had it been around when I first started playing. For someone just coming into this rich and varied world, "Merchant" has connotations that don't necessarily hold up in game, but do tend to inform one's play, at least until that player has had a chance to find a more specific niche. Speaking as someone whose character was literally wasting away before I found said spot in the "eco-system", playing a Merchant can be very difficult as a first character.
To my newbie eyes, the rest of the options I had at the start (three "shady-types", a warrior, a ranger, and an assasin, if I remember correctly) all looked too... hard core. I thought to myself "My character's not really any of those - she's just someone who's trying to get by."
This would be a good, easily-understandable vector for new players to enter the game, and for veteran ones to play an "average Amos", backed by code.
Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing something along these lines, and I recall variations on this idea suggested on here in the past.
Yes, you can play rangers indoors, or rogues non-roguishly, etc. It's quite possible to even flourish doing so. Still, there's no denying the fact that each guild is best suited for a certain kind of lifestyle. Also (as Bluefae points out), the names of those guilds have certain connotations, particularly to newer players. Having some generic working-class guild would affirm that it represents another a possible role. So I give the general idea a thumbs up, and I kind of like the suggestion of a jack-of-all-trades approach.
Burglar is an excellent hybrid combat-city class, especially if you take a crafting subguild.
Being a burglar or a pickpocket in no way forces a new player into illegal activities. I do think it might be a good idea to have a highly newbie-visible paragraph somewhere detailing the difference between coded guild and in-game profession, though.
Too be honest, I don't think the game need's another non city based character, because, when it comes down to it, there is no city, or wilderness based characters. A ranger can become a shady, indoorsy type, and a burglar could become a very good hunter. Their skill sets are compatible to it. We've only defined them as city based, and wilderness based, because of the guild's name. When in the end, they both have the skills to do a certain job, outdoors, or indoors.
However, it would be nice to have a jack of all trades character as Larrath said. The guild could also introduce a few new skills; Glasshacking and lumberjacking. Don't think these skills would be very hard to code either.
I like the idea of a commoner class or two. I feel like more classes don't nessessarily mean anything bad ... newbies love the idea of more classes, anyway. Until we can pick our own skills in Chargen, which will prolly never happen, I support a commoner class.
I gave this idea a little thought myself the other day. I can't think of a reasonable group of "commoner" skills that aren't already contained in another guild/subguild combination.
Quote from: "Larrath"I would like to see a basic Commoner guild for non-particular classes and for newbies that want a taste of everything.
The guild could have basic fighting abilities (on par with a Pickpocket), low-capped Haggle and Value, a good forage skill, high flee, low hide/sneak, specific bonuses for obsidian mining, lumberjacking and salt gathering, maybe an armor repair skill, and an ability to gain Listen and possibly even scan, and maybe knifemaking. Basically, a jack of all trades guild with no real focus, and perhaps the ability to pick two subguilds.
I think it could be very nice, and it would also help new players think that their ranger has to go out and explore.
I think another bonus for this class should be added mount packing abilities. Allow them to pack one or two more items on a mount than the default. Also, and though this would probably be a pain in the butt code wise, allow them a bonus in terms of how much weight could be placed on the mount. This could be easily explained as a hauler of raw goods having a solid understanding of weight distribution and effective packing methods.
How about a Commoner guild that can pick and choose between a set amount of skills? Perhaps give them a broad variety of skills but without the option of mastering them or something like that. In a world like Zalanthas, I'd imagine that there's a lot of good-for-nothing-layabout type of people who never did much of the same thing through their lives, but know the basics of a lot of things.
Similar to ye olde ROM MUD's pick/drop system at character creation, actually. You get to choose from a list of non-specialist skills, so that you can adapt your skills to your character instead of adapting your character to your skills. :)
I think we need to take some of the crafting skills away from the merchant class and make a whole new worker class that would start with some all around skills, and then a subguild could define what kind of crafter he/she'd be.
I would love to see a jack-of-all-trades, can fit into any job type of guild made. Give it all sorts of different types of skills but with low caps so they'd be pretty mediocre at everything.
They'd never be the best but they'd be able to fit into any sort of job.
Quote from: "Bogre"I think we need to take some of the crafting skills away from the merchant class and make a whole new worker class that would start with some all around skills, and then a subguild could define what kind of crafter he/she'd be.
What would you add to this new class that Merchant doesnt already have? Why not just make a merchant with the appropriate crafting subguild and not use any other crafting skills?
I'm not sure why everyone here thinks that you can't make a "jack of all trades" character now.
It's not really possible to make a character that could sneak around in alleys, make a living by bowhunting and lumberjacking with the additional crafting/repair jobs on the side. Any character that wants truly good crafting skills pretty much has to be a Merchant, meaning that they won't be able to have good combat skills. It's possible to make jacks of all trades right now, but the way to do it isn't obvious enough for a brand new player.
Also, with current guilds a PC can never really be a jack of all trades because after 80 days of playtime they, assuming that they use their skills regularly, will become extremely skilled in a single facet. This guild is intended to be more balanced, keeping the combat balanced with the crafting and stealth instead of sacrificing one for the other.
Plus, the guild could have all sorts of unique bonuses and abilities such as the obsidian mining bonus.
I admit that this is not an urgently needed change, but simply having this guild to allow the new players to pick could be nice and helpful, and it would also help characters who have to pick the Merchant guild because none of the other guilds can support what they want, and as a result it would make less in-game Merchants the sitting ducks with no combat skills that we all know and love to prey on.
I'm not sure changing the guilds would have a greater impact than other changes in the game. As it stands now most of the guilds cover a wide range of character ideas... the problem isn't creating character ideas so much as being able to implement those ideas.
I think if the majority of play revolved around independent characters rather than clans, then we'd see far greater change.
Give me a ranger with a background-appropriate subguild and watch me pwn as a Jack of All Trades. Or a burglar, but to a lesser degree.
As a matter of fact, the one character I've had who would have qualified as dabbling in nearly -everything-, from espionage to extortion to murder to merchanting, was a ranger/linguist.
I've also made fortunes on subguild crafting and haggle with warriors. It's very possible to do whatever the hell you want with any character. Wits count for far more than coded skills, I've found.
I wouldn't mind the slicing of a few Subguilds and replacing them with others, but I like Arm's class setup as it stands.
-WP
What about a base class that allows the selection of 2 or 3 subguilds? Thought it would be neat to have a char that's a decent fighter, but with subguilds of house servant and doctor. It'd be nice to be a healer and a crafter of sorts, without having to suck at fighting.
Quote from: "Ritley"Too be honest, I don't think the game need's another non city based character, because, when it comes down to it, there is no city, or wilderness based characters. ... Their skill sets are compatible to it. We've only defined them as city based, and wilderness based, because of the guild's name.
Yes, I agree with this. What you're describing is one of great concepts of Armageddon: a character is not defined by his guild, but what he does.
Except that newbies haven't reached that point of realization yet. Nine of out ten newbies are going to say: "Alright, I'm a pickpocket/hamburglar/assassin. Better start pickpocketing/hamburgling/assassinating."
Then he's going to run afoul of a templar, some rinth-mobs, or, more likely, the crim-code, and he's going to die.
At the same time, a newbie who picks ranger is going to say: "Time to go ranging."
And he's going to get eaten.
That's why I said newbies are implicity forced rather than explicity forced. Nobody is actually forcing them to these ends, but most of the time it's the inevitable conclusion anyway.
This is
not helping Armageddon Mud.A class that is a clearly defined "city-dweller," and that can be pointed to as very newbie-friendly, would be a huge benefit to the game.
Quote from: "Cale_Knight"Except that newbies haven't reached that point of realization yet. Nine of out ten newbies are going to say: "Alright, I'm a pickpocket/hamburglar/assassin. Better start pickpocketing/hamburgling/assassinating."
[snip]
This is not helping Armageddon Mud.
Let's give a bit of credit to newbies' ability to learn and more than a bit of credit to the wonderfully addicting powers of Armageddon. The latter will ensure that the newbies do stay long enough to learn.
My very first character was a pickpocket. And, yeah, I said "better go pickpocket" and I died within a few hours to the crim code. My second character was a pickpocket and I said "better go pickpocket but I'll be more careful this time" and I lasted two weeks and managed to pick up the only (as far as I know) bad notes on my account. :P My third character was a pickpocket and I said "not even going to play the pickpocket thing this time except as a background" and that character went for 7 months until I retired her.
It's been brought up before about picking and choosing skills. I like the -idea- as it would alleviate some of the predictability of knowing what a character can do when you find out their guild. In practice it'd probably be a pain to code and therefore wouldn't happen (is my guess) unless it was done on a special app basis. I personally would only like it if experienced characters whose players have acquired enough karma to have access to that kind of option, but that's just me (if you could code it then more power to ya). I know it would help with character background if you could do it at character creation but I'd still rather keep it to experienced / long-lived folk. It'd be a nice little incentive not to kill off so fast. :-P
I'm all for adding guilds, though. The more options arm has the more appealing it might be to players. I just don't know how to mesh a new guild in with the current system.
I've never gotten the merchant guild. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying I don't get it. I don't know if they should be changed or not, I don't know the numbers as to who is playing and who likes it. If I've tried it before it was a -long- time ago and don't remember so maybe that's why I don't get them. :-) I might try it one of these days if I'm feeling brave. Merchant (without the crafting part) seems more like a strong subguild to me than an actual guild. It'd be kinda cool to split merchant up into two city classes so that both classes got about the same in merchanting but were better at different things. I don't know what those things would be though.
- HK
Personally, I feel the more varied guilds/subguilds we can add the better. I'm a big fan of entirely skill based systems, but I've heard more than once that this sort of thing will likely never be implemented. This is sad to me. I dislike how cut and dry the guild sets are in Armageddon. It makes guild sniffing a breeze, which, in turn, leads to OOC information bleeding into the game. I recall eating some roots I'd foraged in a tavern and immediately having someone try to recruit me into their military clan, since they needed outdoorsmen who could navigate. I also recall hearing people being suspicious that so-and-so was a magicker simply because he was terrible at fighting. I would love, love, love to see a dozen takes on the same guilds and subguilds, adding droplets of skills and taking away bits of others just to make things more vague.
Now, fully on topic, a basic commoner class would be really awesome. Low fighting ability, low roguish ability, etc, etc. Tons of skills without being particularly good at any of them. Including new skills involving mining, salt grebbing, and whatever those crazy Northerners do for money would be especially nice. If the right skills and code were provided, we could even create some new ways for city-based commoners to make a little dough.
Merchant guild needs a bit of work on them starting skills.
I wish pick pocket and burgler would be merged into one guild.
And I'd love to see a city based "jack of all trades, Master of none" Guild.
A guild that can branch a LARGE range of skills, but at low maxes, and in most cases the branched skills would not be anything more then other guilds start with.
Starting skills say start at 10% and max at 50%, branched skills max lower.
Great class for a bard I'd think. Or nobles, Merchant house family members, But specialy people that just wanna play Joe the commoner.
Would be even better if there was a northern style and a southern style.
I agree with merging the burglar and pickpocket guilds into one Thief Guild that can serve easily as either. Doing that, and adding this sort of Commoner Guild would be sweet.
You know, I'd never thought of a pickpocket/burglar merge before...and I like it.
Something that some newbies don't seem to understand about Armageddon is that a PC is not defined by its skills. Skills are just things the PC knows how to do, and do not necessarily determine profession.
For example, a person creates a character that is an assassin/stonecrafter. This PC learned how to be sneaky from his older brother while growing up, and picked up making things out of stones from his parents, learning their profession. The PC decides that he needs to get a good job so that he can help support the family with his income, and hears that Lady Prissypants is looking for an aide. So, he approaches her, interviews, and gets the job. He is allowed to train occasionally with the guard to get better at using weapons, so that he can help to protect Lady Prissypants if she is attacked.
I think the reason that a lot of newbies don't realize things like this at first, and therefore go through the experience of getting PCs killed due to hasty mistakes. Some of them will take a while to realize this and some never learn. I would wager that the majority of newbies DO learn this within a year of playing, and go on to find themselves in great roles in the game.
Personally, I think a "commoner" class would be awesome. Screw the newbies, I wouldn't mind such a class. Sure, I can generally kludge into place whatever kind of 'class" I want, but a few more options wouldn't hurt. I don't like the idea of a class with a bunch of low skill capped skills. A low skill sneak is a worthless sneak. You are better off not to give someone the illusion that their skills work. They should have skills they excel at. If I could make a commoner class, it would have the following:
They would have a ranger like fighting ability, but with no ability to branch any skills. So, they would start out fairly beefy in terms of combat, but probably never been anything greater then a sub-par mercenary due to the lack branching any support combat skills. They would have merchant like abilities for "commoner" crafts like cooking, tailoring, basket weaving, tool making and things of that nature. Throw on top of that some low skill capped other crafts like wood and stone working. Add in some pick pocket like capped haggle and value, and I think you would have a wining combination.
Could you kludge a pick pocket into looking sorta like this class? Sure. Then again, I could kludge a burglar into looking like a pick pocket. I don't think the option would hurt, and it would make a nice open class that can really go any way the wind blows. They could easily end up fighting in the Byn, crafting as a Kadian, merchanting as a Kuraci, or serving as a noble aid. I like the idea.
Okay, building from another thread... what do we do with a "Jack-of-all trades"?
The game simply isn't set up for characters that never practice enough to specialize in certain skills. My question is how would we implement such a guild? We're not talking about a few freak characters but a actual percentage of characters.
Here's my answer (separate from my actual question which is what I hope this thread will be discussing)
Have more 'part-time' work. This would allow characters to be employed in a wide variety of jobs (cook, aide, etc) without taking so much time the player becomes bored.
Half merchant-like/half warrior like
That is what I want. One where I can pick to master a few craft skills, and a few fighting skills. Then I'd be set. I don't even use half the skills I own most of the time. Then the ones I do use, I usually can't master. What a rip off.