While I'm not logged in, I'd like to take this time to remind everyone that it is Serjeant with a J for Winrothol officers, not Sergeant. :twisted: I am not stouped as you all think. :P
I think dealing with this ICly is much more fun than posting on GDB.
I don't see how it would be possible to deal with it ICly. Isn't it pronouced the same? And commoners can't write... Or am I missing something?
Quote from: "bloodfromstone"I don't see how it would be possible to deal with it ICly. Isn't it pronouced the same? And commoners can't write... Or am I missing something?
This is my thought.
I believe there was some looong thread on this matter on Winrothol clan boards (years ago when I played there) which claimed there is slight difference in pronouncation. If not, what is the difference IG? Your Serjeant character would not see the difference being titled Serjeant or Sergeant if it is pronouced same, right?
EDITed to add: Not that it matters that much. But years ago when I played Serjeant of Winrothol I had great fun teaching recruits difference. "No Sarge! Serjeant you fool!" :twisted:
Quote from: "Morfeus"I believe there was some looong thread on this matter on Winrothol clan boards (years ago when I played there) which claimed there is slight difference in pronouncation. If not, what is the difference IG? Your Serjeant character would not see the difference being titled Serjeant or Sergeant if it is pronouced same, right?
Serjeant is like Sergeant pronounced with a San Francisco lisp.
Isn't 'Serjeant' just the British spelling for Sergeant?
If not, I think it's absolutely silly that every single clan in the game with a Sergeant-like rank uses 'Sergeant' except Winrothol. Winrothol should conform or other clans should be changed so this makes more sense.
Until then, I honestly don't see a reason to bother putting a J instead of a G. It's the exact same word and means the same thing.
Is there a difference, or isn't there?
I think the larger question is, Tuluki are communist scum.
Damn Northrons.
G is the American way!
Quote from: "Larrath"Until then, I honestly don't see a reason to bother putting a J instead of a G. It's the exact same word and means the same thing.
There is a reason for this.
Having been around in Winrothol prior to Morfeus being there...having played in the clan when Vendyra was still around, being party to the first 'sergeant vs serjeant' debate. Vendyra liked the spelling and maintained at that time that there WAS a difference in pronunciation. The 'J' sound is a bit softer than the 'G' sound in the same place...and thus, it is possible to correct people IG, but it would probably be an exercise in futility to do so.
I've always thought of it as being pronounced sort of frenchie..like.. I have no idea how to phonetically spell the sound. Sort of like a zsha sound. Sarzshaunt.
Wait wait.. like Jean Claude Van Damm or however his name is spelled. Instead of being a hard G like Gene, it's a zshaun sound.
This all seems kind of redundant to me. As well as confusion to newbs. Sergeant Serjeant my name IRL is Ginger, Jinger Ginger... same difference as long as there's no spelling involved.
Heh, I don't understand it myself.
Quote from: "Anonymous"While I'm not logged in, just thought I'd say it's Serjeant with a J for Winrothol officers, not Sergeant. :twisted: I am not stouped as you all think. :P
*grunt* I guess you can't edit post while you're not logged in. :evil:
Spelling Sergeant with a 'j' has bugged me since forever, and I'm not doing it. Sergeant comes from French to begin with; there isn't any difference in pronounciation except in propagators' imagination. I ran across a post on the rumour board just the other day, and it even spelt it with a capital J.
There -is- an old British form spelt Serjeant, for a rank of super-duper royal servants, but it went away in the late ninteenth century and shouldn't be resuscitated in a culture which cannot write. I suppose it could be spelt differently when put into an actual in-game book, but -saying- "Serjeant" breaks my in-game mood. It makes me think of what said as a line of written rather than a line of spoken.
Growl.
I think this is a simple matter of deference to an already set precedence by Vendyra.
If the rank is spell "serjeant" and denotes ICly a slightly different pronouncation then, well, it's freakin spelled "serjeant", end of discussion.
P.S.
This reminds me of the old ALA debate. I always hated hearing about the ALA ICly
"I'm worried the ALA is up to their old tricks again."
"Who?"
"The Allanaki Liberation Alliance."
"How in the name of Krath do you get Allanaki Liberation Alliance from 'Aye ell aye'?"
"I have no idea."
In my mind, the pronounciation difference between Sergeant and Serjeant exists, and is the same as the difference between Gene (as in, Gene Hackman) or jeans (as in, blue jeans) and Jean (as in, Jean Claude or Jean-Luc Picard). It may be a subtle distinction to some ears, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or isn't significant (just ask any French speaker!).
When half the population talks with apostrophes instead of a large number of letters, I cannot imagine correcting someone on a slight sound of a single letter. Granted, I haven't played much up North, and the people there might talk much more properly than I'm used to... It just seems silly to me, is all.
Speaking as someone who never heard about this until now, it does sound a little silly, but if there's a reason for it there's a reason for it.
Sergeant has to be one of the most commonly misspelled words in the game, even apart from this. I shudder to think of what it would be like if everyone corrected others' "pronunciation" of the word.
The amusing thing is, I bet every player who argues against spelling Sergeant with a 'J' would be the first players to complain the moment I began spelling magick without a 'K'. :lol:
Quote from: "Pantoufle"The amusing thing is, I bet every player who argues against spelling Sergeant with a 'J' would be the first players to complain the moment I began spelling magick without a 'K'. :lol:
I personally hate the "k" on the end of magic. I think it looks stupid.
I also hate the "j" in Sergeant. I think it looks stupid.
Quote from: "Pantoufle"The amusing thing is, I bet every player who argues against spelling Sergeant with a 'J' would be the first players to complain the moment I began spelling magick without a 'K'. :lol:
It's mainly the lack of a single game-wide standard that I find a little silly. I have no problem with "magick" or "grey" being the convention, because those are both consistent across the game.
So, at first blush, this sergeant/serjeant thing seems similar to the sergeant-corporal issue that came up some weeks ago. On the other hand, I have no idea what IC motivations there may be for this "serjeant" thing, so there may well be some good reason behind it.
Quote from: "flurry"It's mainly the lack of a single game-wide standard that I find a little silly.
I am not sure if there is anything as "game-wide standard". And I am honestly not even sure if I would like to see some. Lot of Houses have different names of ranks. Why would that be wrong? Just because this one is only 'a little bit different' than title of rank used in most of other organizations?
I believe there is IC reason for this slight difference - maybe not wide known and official, but there is. If you do not like it, there is always possibility to try to change it IG.
IMHO.
Considering it's *pronounced* "SAR"-gent and not "SER"-gent, I don't see why anyone would make a big deal out of how it's spelled. You could spell it Saerjaunte, and you'd still pronounce it Sar-Gent in your head.
Just to chime in with a quick comment...
The K at the end of magick shows what type it is. Magic is like pulling a rabbit out of a hat or sleight of hand. Magick is the art of causing change in conformity with will (for a quick definition).
I understand your point, but in this situation it denotes two different things in its written form. In its spoken form, you could spell it majic for all I care :P
You know what? I don't care that people think it silly. Vendyra is awesome and anyone who doesn't spell it 'Serjeant' in honor of her, well, you suck. I mean, you're like the kid-on-the-playground-that-kicks-gravel-sand-and-dust-at-the-other-kids-just-because kind of suck.
Quote from: "Morfeus"
I am not sure if there is anything as "game-wide standard". And I am honestly not even sure if I would like to see some. Lot of Houses have different names of ranks. Why would that be wrong? Just because this one is only 'a little bit different' than title of rank used in most of other organizations?
I meant a standard for
spelling. Different houses having different ranking systems is perfectly fine for me. And yes, there are game-wide standards for spelling as evidenced by the
style sheet.
Quote
I believe there is IC reason for this slight difference - maybe not wide known and official, but there is. If you do not like it, there is always possibility to try to change it IG.
If there's an IC reason for it, wonderful. I'm just giving my knee-jerk reaction as someone who was thoroughly unfamiliar with this debate a few hours ago.
I meant I am glad there is nothing as "standard" for House ranks (and its spelling). Imagine possibilities! :twisted:
Okay - understood, then. I just meant that if it's purely a cosmetic difference, I wonder if it causes more confusion than anything else.
Quote from: "Cale_Knight"I also hate the "j" in Sergeant. I think it looks stupid.
i agree with ck here. serjeant looks damn stupid. if there's an ic reason for this, then POST THAT SHIT instead of keeping us in the dark of why it's spelt so stupidly.
Me too.
I mean, I second that notion, Manhattan.
Quote from: "Manhattan"Quote from: "Cale_Knight"I also hate the "j" in Sergeant. I think it looks stupid.
i agree with ck here. serjeant looks damn stupid. if there's an ic reason for this, then POST THAT SHIT instead of keeping us in the dark of why it's spelt so stupidly.
If you want to know, find out IC. I am not going to post IC information on GDB just because you are curious. :twisted:
It's because House Winrothol is secretly funded by France. DOWN WITH FRENCHIES.
No, seriously, if anyone tried to correct a PC of mine over this in game, I'd laugh.
Until somebody gives me a legitimate phonetic pronounciation of Serjeant while omitting a thick French twist on the word I will not honor it. Armageddon is not the French Riviera.
Quote from: "Lonely Hunter"The K at the end of magick shows what type it is. Magic is like pulling a rabbit out of a hat or sleight of hand. Magick is the art of causing change in conformity with will (for a quick definition).
Not that this has anything to do with anything but that's actually a big misconception amongst the "Neo-Pagan" world. So-called modern Paganism (which bears little to no resemblance to its original form, particularly the commercialised McReligion Wicca) took the use of the word magic with a 'K' from Aleister Crowley as a means of differentiating themselves from pulling rabbits out of hats, as you describe. The word and the spelling, itself, has no historical basis in terms of comparing magic tricks with forces of nature and all that. In Shakespearean times and prior the word was, indeed, spelled with a 'K', but that wasn't to demonstrate any sort of difference in meaning.
Moreover, the spelling in Armageddon MUD has no relation to the fact that Modern Paganism spells it the same way.
That last one was me.
"Has anyone seen the sergeant around lately?"
"Serjeant."
"Right. The sergeant. Anyone seen him?"
"That's serjeant."
"Right. Him. Where is he?"
"No, he's the serjeant."
"Krath, I know that."
"No, you said he's the sergeant. He's not. He's the serjeant."
"..."
---
That's pretty much how the conversation would go with one of my characters.
Hey, it's spelled (and thus pronounced in game) as 'Serjeant.' Have your characters say it any way they want. Don't expect Winrothol's to have any respect for you...just as they wouldn't have respect for anyone else that speaks in an undeducated and lowbrow manner, though they may conceal it. If you work for Winrothol, you'd better start spelling it right when your character is talking in game.
Personally, I don't care why it's spelled that way. I don't care that many of you think it's stupid. I do find it amusing that you care so much about that one simple letter that you're going to argue with someone on the GDB who simply thought to be nice and inform/remind others of mistakes being made.
Really, many of the people that are arguing against the spelling of 'Serjeant' would probably be the same people to get all itchy if I was to, from now on, start spelling words like Borsale, Toolluk, Lure's, Captin, etc... It doesn't matter that you think it's stupid (as many n00bs will tell you, spelling things at all is stupid, why not use 'u' ?), that's the way it is. It's in the documentation. Simple. Done.
Quote from: "Bebop"This all seems kind of redundant to me. As well as confusion to newbs. Sergeant Serjeant my name IRL is Ginger, Jinger Ginger... same difference as long as there's no spelling involved.
I was confused when I first saw it. After a few moments of thinking, I thought it was the work of the player pouring on their accent, and thought nothing more of it.
If someone tried to correct me, I'd say "That's what I said."
Some people pronounce words differently. I think this is an abhorrently ridiculous little tid bit.
There is no way, any sort of spelling should interefere with IC circumstances.
I'm sorry Spawnloser, but if I was disrepsected by a winrothol for using a g instead of a j, i would chuckle, and lose respect for that player.
Edited to add: Yes it's in the documentation, but accents have alot to do with the game IC. If I say sergeant, and you say sarjeant, there would be little no difference. This is so dumb.
You say Serjeant, I say shut up.
Spawnloser already said it.
This was dealt with in the past. It's Serjeant. It is pronounced differently in game. If you're curious as to why it's different, then ask your superiors. If they don't know, they can ask theirs.
If you want to say 'It's stupid so I refuse to do it', then you can refuse to do all the other things in the clan documentation as well. And then you can refuse to follow the theme of the game. Then you can refuse to play altogether.
Man, all the criticism and agro over a moot point reminds me of some of my threads. :shock:
Quote from: "Fragmented"I've always thought of it as being pronounced sort of frenchie..like.. I have no idea how to phonetically spell the sound. Sort of like a zsha sound. Sarzshaunt.
Wait wait.. like Jean Claude Van Damm or however his name is spelled. Instead of being a hard G like Gene, it's a zshaun sound.
He's Dutch :)
Alright, so I dug up a passage I recalled from an essay by E.B. White, who is one of the finest writers America ever managed to produce. Here's something he wrote:
QuoteNow, it happens that I pronounce "office" offis. And I pronounce "hence" hentz, and I even pronounce "of" uv. Therefore, I infer that Nasby's character is supposed not to be speaking but to be writing. Yet in either event, justification for this perversion of the language is lacking; for if the character is speaking, the queer spelling is unnecessary, since the pronunciation is almost indistinguishable from the natural or ordinary pronunciation, and if the character is writing, the spelling is most unlikely. Who ever wrote "uv" for "of?" Nobody. Anyone who knows how to write at all knows how to spell a simple word like "of." If you can't spell "of" you wouldn't be able to spell anything and wouldn't be attempting to set words to paper - much less words like "solissitood." A person who can't spell "of" is illiterate, and the only time such a person attempts to write anything down is in a great crisis. He doesn't write political essays or diaries or letters or satirical paragraphs.
Even if "sergeant" in Winrothol does have a slightly different pronunciation, it's not justification to change the spelling just to be confusing. It's
already a "j" sound. The Winrothol documentation could
easily say something like "in the military ranks of Winrothol, "sergeant" is spoken with a more pronounced "j" sound than elsewhere." There's absolutely no reason to force a spelling change.
But beyond that, this thread is exactly why these forums are so crappy for newbies. Look at what's here. Some anonymous player posts about a nitpicky little thing, and then when players ask what it's all about, people start shouting from the rafters how it's some kind of in-game secret and you shouldn't even be asking.
The different spelling shows that it is pronounced differently, not how it is being pronounced.
It sets the rank apart from a 'sergeant'. It may be roughly the same, but the different spelling shows that it is, in fact, something unique about the clan. Once again, if you want to know why it is, question the superiors.
If this isn't even your clan, I don't think it affects you much either way.
Quote from: "Armaddict"The different spelling shows that it is pronounced differently, not how it is being pronounced.
No it doesn't. It shows that it is misspelled.
Look, we're playing a text-based game here. Text is our only means of communication. And you write out "serjeant" you are not communicating a different pronunciation. You are communicating a spelling error.
That's it. Just a spelling error.
I also played in Winrothol for a while and don't remember anyone calling the Sergeant a Serjeant. And if they had, I never would have thought of it as anything but a typo. I promise you that's what 99% of all players will ever do.
Nobody will ever say, "Huh. Serjeant. I bet there's a slightly stronger "j" sound there, but not quite enough to justify a phonetic difference in the spelling."
They'll say. "Huh. That guy doesn't know how to spell "sergeant."
Quote from: "Cale_Knight"Quote from: "Armaddict"The different spelling shows that it is pronounced differently, not how it is being pronounced.
No it doesn't. It shows that it is misspelled.
No. It shows that it is different than "Sergeant". That is all. It is not a mistake. It is IG name of IG rank and with IG reason for this spelling. I can understand that you, as a player, do not like it. But please, try to accept there might be some things IG which are simply different from real - and that you do not have to actually like them. Do you hate the word? Make a char and change the name of rank ICly.
QuoteCale Knight: Look, we're playing a text-based game here. Text is our only means of communication.
Exactly. Text is our only means of communication. And so instead of us being able to pronounce the difference for you between Sergeant and Serjeant, we must -spell- the difference.
I think it is one of those things which come to this. If it is trying to be the normal subtle difference that is Tuluk, it should just get a new name. If that doesn't work, then I won't care really. The only way I can think of on how it is pronounced, is with a softer mid section than Sergeant. More slurred.
According to Dictionary.com, Sergeant and Serjeant are pronounced identically. Honestly, I just think this entire this is ridiculous.
"Winrothol's Sergeants are called Serjeants with a tiny emphasis on the J sound. Find out IC why it is that way". For one, how the hell are people going to find out IC about it? It's not conceiveable, to me, that people would treat 'Serjeant vs. Sergeant' as anything beyond the basic accent of whoever is speaking. And even if you do ask, who is going to be capable of answering? Probably not the Serjeants, since they're illiterate! So are nobody characters supposed to go to Winrothol nobles and ask them: "Excuse me, Chosen Lord, but I've noticed that when most of your people refer to their immediate commanding officer, they put a little emphasis on that gjj' sound, why is that?".
Come on.
I've already touched on my second point earlier - this society is largely illiterate, and those who are literate don't really have an interest in teaching the literates. I think that without a justified reason to emphasize that J, Winrothol's Serjeants would be addressed as Sergeants until nobody even remembered it wasn't the case.
It's not comfortable, for me, to type Serjeant. It breaks my concentration and I believe it also contributes to the endless variants of Sergeant-related typos out there. I don't see how such a tidbit could matter or even affect anything IC and I don't see why it should - Serjeant is pretty much just the British spelling of the word Sergeant, and Armageddon uses American spelling.
It's like correcting people to say "Grey Forest" instead of "Gray". Because these people aren't writing the word "grey", it's impossible and totally impractical to correct them. They sound the same and, once again, there are thousands of different accents out there.
Wow, a lot is being accomplished in this thread! :roll:
Wow, this discussion has gone wild, and I appreciate the comments on both sides. It has certainly let us all know how exactly this altered spelling is viewed; and just to clarify, no Winrothol serjeant that I have ever met has ever tried to correct someone for this spelling; however, whether you agree with its reasoning or not, serjeant with a J is indeed how this word is spelled, and should you choose to turn a blind eye and spell Serjeant, Sergeant, you are, in fact, misspelling the word. If a person's name is ERick (as it can be spelled) not Eric, one is not addressing the same person by simply picking the more commonly used of the two, and one is indeed misspelling that person's name. How big of a slight is it to refuse to spell sergeant this way? Not very, but the slight adds up overtime, and just like making careless typos makes one look inept and inexperienced, so does misspelling this title. Whether one pronounces this rank with an "English G" or a "French J" is not so important. What is important is that the two words –are- spelled differently. No, if you spell the Grey Forest, the Gray Forest, no one is going to get on you about it; however, if you do spell it correctly, we will all think more highly of you. Personally, I don't care if you spell it Sergeant or Serjeant. Just know it –is- spelled Serjeant. The very reason this topic was brought up here is because it's not the sort of discussion that should be conducted IC IMO and because this topic is in debate elsewhere and the feedback is helpful. I don't necessarily agree with this spelling, but I would be appreciative if you used it.
How pretentious. Now it's an insult to spell the word the archaic way you want it to be spelled? Are you going to request that this thread be stickied, or are you just going to repost this topic every two weeks to make sure nobody forgets and to ensure that newbies understand?
This thread never should have been opened in the first place. I doubt anyone outside of winrothol cares, and anyone inside of winrothol has access to the clan-only forum.
Quote from: "Cale_Knight"This thread never should have been opened in the first place. I doubt anyone outside of winrothol cares, and anyone inside of winrothol has access to the clan-only forum.
Agreed. This thread is.. annoying. If one prefers to spell Sergeant with a 'g', let 'em. It's the way I spell it, and the way I'll continue to spell it. I personally don't see the difference between 'g' and 'j'. :roll:
If anything... don't you think this should've been posted and discussed on the Winrothol boards? Since it only matters to Winrothols?
Quote from: "Cale_Knight"How pretentious. Now it's an insult to spell the word the archaic way you want it to be spelled? Are you going to request that this thread be stickied, or are you just going to repost this topic every two weeks to make sure nobody forgets and to ensure that newbies understand?
This is not the preference of the original poster - from what they wrote, this is what the Winrothol documentations state. This is also the first time I've seen this sort of thread, and I've been around for a couple of years already.
Quote from: "Cale_Knight"
This thread never should have been opened in the first place. I doubt anyone outside of winrothol cares, and anyone inside of winrothol has access to the clan-only forum.
I don't see what's wrong with this thread. Actually, the original poster surprised me - I actually forgot we used to have discussions here that weren't just heated arguments.
Though I still don't agree with the reasons for spelling Sergeant with a J and would still like to see it retconned out of existence (and most certainly don't agree that not using the J version should ever be seen as an insult since the pronounciation is identical), I will make an effort to start using J's instead.
I just hate the idea that somehow you're slighting someone if you dare to spell the word the way you'd reasonably expect it to be spelled.
And if nobody's going to be insulted by the IC pronunciation, as the original poster stated, how in the world is he going to be insulted by an OOC spelling?
Whole can o' worms.
It is funny how one single letter makes people angry. I wonder what would happen if one starts the thread about "grey, not gray" or "magick, not magic".
So I'm reading this thread and I'm wondering why House Winrothol is so special that they get to use alternate spellings on a word spelled consistently the same everywhere else in the game.
I don't think it looks cool or unique, I think it's confusing.
Suppose Borsail decides they want to rename the Wyverns to Wyyverns, or House Tor wants to become the Tor Skorpionz. The words are pronounced slightly different, so shouldn't they be able to use them?
Just delete the misspelling.
EDITed to be a little nicer.
What was the big deal again?
/me wanders off, dazed and confused.
Quote from: "ale six"Just delete the misspelling, it's ridiculous. I for one am not going to ever misspell a word...
Magic? :twisted:
....
Seriously, I am surprised (and annoyed) how heated the discussion is. Maybe you consider it silly, ridiculous or anything else, but it's part of the game. Some people might consider spelling "magick" with K silly. Some people might consider whole game concept ridiculous. Someone might dislike name "Allanak". And I really wonder if there is a thread about all names and places of Armaggedon created- would you all find an agreetment on pronouncution of words? Would you jump up and scream: "Silly! Stupid! Ridiculous!" just because you have different opinion too?
I would love to see people stop using GDB to complain and screaming about IC things which should be changed according their OOC opinion. Too often I see people in heated OOC discussion about things which are IC, have IC reasons and could be changed ICly. If we follow this trend, in few months we will see a thread claiming "This templar is so unfair, he should be removed from the game! Not removing him is stupid, ridiculous and silly! Do it now!" (Because, you know, who would spend time in such a big and dangerous and probably never-done thing as assassinating templar IG. It is easier to demand such thing OOCly, no?)
I am not used to complain on GDB - I believe this is the first time I do so. I actually started to use GDB just lately. But I have to say this trend deeply disappoints me.
I don't see how your arguement is related to this Morfeus.
If there was a scrac in the north and a scrab in the south. Though they have the same description, they are "ICly" different doesn't matter. One of them should be changed to create uniformity and less a chance of getting confused OOC.
Since Sargeant and Sarjeant is pronounced the same and just written differently, it shouldn't matter to the common populace, they can't write.
However pedantic this topic may seem, I have to admit some interesting points have been raised on both sides of the argument. Armageddon MUD is 100% text, nothing more. If there's anything players are going to quibble about in a text based world, you can bet on it being spelling! Is that nitpicking? Maybe, maybe not.
For me, the trouble, confusion, and awkwardness of 'Serjeant' is that -- like so many have said before me -- it's a word often mispelled already. New players seeing this will instantly write it off as a typo. Imagine if the Guild decided that their thieves were to be called (spelled) 'theifs'. My god! Can you imagine the kind of audience and debate it would recieve on this discussion board!? What's worse, the IC Fascists would come marching in telling you to find out IC why the heck they're referred to as theifs and not thieves (when there isn't any IC explanation to begin with) faster than you can blink!
The only quibbling I really see about this thread is the following:
1) Quibbling over quibbling. Guess what, boys and girls, we're allowed to disagree. Vehemently at that. If someone strongly states their dislike for some part of the game, they're not complaining. They're discussing. The only person doing the complaining, in these instances, are those who say "Oh, god, stop complaining!"
...and 2) This 'Find Out IC' nonsense which pollutes the discussion board more than the most derailed thread in existance. 9 times out of 10 the statement 'Find out IC' has no relevance to the topic, nor is it some deep dark secret. Half of the Find Out IC rubbish I've ever seen shoved down our throats is something which, ironically, exists in a help file somewhere if you look deep enough. And I'm sorry but whatever Winrothol's reason for spelling Sergeant differently is, it's not some deep dark secret shrouded in mystery that would spoil the game if we all found out. Quite often what we're being suggesteded to 'Find out IC' a) is impossible and b) wouldn't be IC to try finding out in the first place! Maybe the expression you're looking for is 'Don't Ask'? 'Find out IC' is an explosively misued and overused phrase which invokes nausea, rather than posing as a polite suggestion (which it's not). If I had the calories to waste, I could write an entire essay on what I now call: FOICP (the Find Out IC Phenomena).
Quote from: "Pantoufle"However pedantic this topic may seem, I have to admit some interesting points have been raised on both sides of the argument. Armageddon MUD is 100% text, nothing more. If there's anything players are going to quibble about in a text based world, you can bet on it being spelling! Is that nitpicking? Maybe, maybe not.
For me, the trouble, confusion, and awkwardness of 'Serjeant' is that -- like so many have said before me -- it's a word often mispelled already. New players seeing this will instantly write it off as a typo. Imagine if the Guild decided that their thieves were to be called (spelled) 'theifs'. My god! Can you imagine the kind of audience and debate it would recieve on this discussion board!? What's worse, the IC Fascists would come marching in telling you to find out IC why the heck they're referred to as theifs and not thieves (when there isn't any IC explanation to begin with) faster than you can blink!
The only quibbling I really see about this thread is the following:
1) Quibbling over quibbling. Guess what, boys and girls, we're allowed to disagree. Vehemently at that. If someone strongly states their dislike for some part of the game, they're not complaining. They're discussing. The only person doing the complaining, in these instances, are those who say "Oh, god, stop complaining!"
...and 2) This 'Find Out IC' nonsense which pollutes the discussion board more than the most derailed thread in existance. 9 times out of 10 the statement 'Find out IC' has no relevance to the topic, nor is it some deep dark secret. Half of the Find Out IC rubbish I've ever seen shoved down our throats is something which, ironically, exists in a help file somewhere if you look deep enough. And I'm sorry but whatever Winrothol's reason for spelling Sergeant differently is, it's not some deep dark secret shrouded in mystery that would spoil the game if we all found out. Quite often what we're being suggesteded to 'Find out IC' a) is impossible and b) wouldn't be IC to try finding out in the first place! Maybe the expression you're looking for is 'Don't Ask'? 'Find out IC' is an explosively misued and overused phrase which invokes nausea, rather than posing as a polite suggestion (which it's not). If I had the calories to waste, I could write an entire essay on what I now call: FOICP (the Find Out IC Phenomena).
Well stated, Pantoufle. Also, my opinion is that these forums are just the places for these sorts of OOC debates. Someone said that we should conclude these sorts of things IG? I really don't agree. Debates like this about textual elements of the game should be conducted here. I'd have to say this is a good thread, actually--for the most part. I don't think it should be spell with a J, but I'm respectful enough to use it.
You know what my problem with this entire discussion is?
The people that don't want to spell the word as 'Serjeant' can complain all they want, but so far, it hasn't changed the documentation.
Also, for the last time, STOP CALLING IT A MISSPELLING. That is an accurate spelling of the word.
Seriously, people. If you spell it as 'Sergeant' YOU are the one misspelling it. The documentation DOES spell it as 'Serjeant'...and deliberately not spelling it that way, just because you don't like it, shows that you are not willing to follow the documentation. Follow the documentation, people. That's why we have it.
Quote from: "spawnloser"You know what my problem with this entire discussion is?
The people that don't want to spell the word as 'Serjeant' can complain all they want, but so far, it hasn't changed the documentation.
Also, for the last time, STOP CALLING IT A MISSPELLING. That is an accurate spelling of the word.
Seriously, people. If you spell it as 'Sergeant' YOU are the one misspelling it. The documentation DOES spell it as 'Serjeant'...and deliberately not spelling it that way, just because you don't like it, shows that you are not willing to follow the documentation. Follow the documentation, people. That's why we have it.
Nods in agreement.
I am sorry, I don't see things like "It's silly, ridiculous and stupid!" as an argument which helps the discussion. And all what I was trying to express is (here, let me repeat it once again): If there is IC thing with IC reason behind, the best thing how to change it (or support it) is to approach it ICly. There is many, many possibilites how to do it ICly and every each of them seems to be more fun than open GDB and state "This is ridiculous!" (but true, most of them would be also more dangerous).
As Spawnloser said, as long as it is in documentation, it is not misspelling. And if the documentation says it is pronounced differently than Sergeant, than I believe that it is pronounced differently on Zalanthas.
EDITed to add: And thinking about it, if you are unsure if there -is- some IC reason behind the thing, is generally always more fun to presume there is. In case "If there was a scrac in the north and a scrab in the south..." - perhaps the northern scrac was created by evil defiler and therefore is different than scrab? Perhaps northern scrac is something as scrab with major inner mutations - being poisonous, with magick abilities or something? If the name is different, there has to be some difference! What if it is a part of new Muk Utep's army and its appearance, similar to scrab, is just a clever cover?
Quote from: "spawnloser"Seriously, people. If you spell it as 'Sergeant' YOU are the one misspelling it. The documentation DOES spell it as 'Serjeant'...and deliberately not spelling it that way, just because you don't like it, shows that you are not willing to follow the documentation. Follow the documentation, people. That's why we have it.
The documentation also once had corporals ranking higher than sergeants in the nakki militia, and some people made arguments identical to this one.
It got changed anyway.
The documentation is not the word of god.
QuoteThe documentation also once had corporals ranking higher than sergeants in the nakki militia, and some people made arguments identical to this one.
It got changed anyway.
.... Yes... And it was
not a mispelling or a simple mistake or anything till it got changed. Till it got changed, corporals ranked higher than sergeants in Allanaki Militia.
Till it gets changed, sergeants are sergeants and serjeants are serjeants.
IRL, I view many aspects of this game as serious mistakes. I'm a fucking idiot sexist who believes men are better than women, I avoid homosexuals and view it as something... unnatural, the first two examples.
But IG, even though I believe it's stupid IRL, a female sergeant is someone to adore and someone to obey. Every woman may be as powerful as I am and that gay PC trying to pick me up only deserves "I'm flattered by your offer, sire.. But thank you, I am really into only women."
So maybe calling a rank 'serjeant' is stupid, but
you have to obey the rule till it changes.So some of the previous replies stating the will to ignore the game's rule are.. somewhat senseless I believe. But of course it's nice to debate and try to change the rule, as long as the game develops to the better.
My idea? Eh, I believe Serjeant is.. somewhat annoying for the newbies or unaware -I didn't know it before this post- folks like I am. It should be changed? I believe so. But
I will call serjeants 'serjeant' till the rule changes.
Thank you, Cenghiz...your post reminded me...
You want this one changed, contact the Winrothol IMMs. They may decide to leave it the way it is or change it. Either way, follow the documentation.
Quote from: "spawnloser"You want this one changed, contact the Winrothol IMMs. They may decide to leave it the way it is or change it. Either way, follow the documentation.
Sir yes sir!
But, seriously... Attempting to silence the players by directing them to the staff, and only the staff, is not a solution. Think of how many wonderful and inventive changes have been implemented by the staff because enough players voiced their opinion right here on the GDB. Yet you would have us shut up, speak directly to the staff in an anonymous unheard outlet, and obediently follow the Ten Commandments (er, I mean "documentation") without question.
Players ought to be encouraged to share their opinion on matters (however minute and trivial), not
discouraged.
Of course any topic could be discussed. What nerves me is the attitude: "This is stupid. I won't do it."
I believe the laws enforcing me to marry only one woman are stupid, but I have to obey, right?
I can try to form a community and try to fight for my legal right to marry multiple women at once, but I can't say "This is stupid, I'll do what I want." and ignore the rule. Or in jail, I may become the wife of a few men at once, eh?
edited on the afterthought.
reposted here:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=183326#183326
Quote from: "spawnloser"The people that don't want to spell the word as 'Serjeant' can complain all they want, but so far, it hasn't changed the documentation.
Also, for the last time, STOP CALLING IT A MISSPELLING. That is an accurate spelling of the word.
Agreed.
'Anakore' is not only a misspelling. It is a misspelling of a word that doesn't even exist. Draw conclusions.
If my last post came off as too heated, I apologise.
My argument isn't so much that I consider the alternate spelling stupid in itself as that I consider it inconsistent (and stupid due to inconsistency).
Comparisons to ignoring parts of the documentation like sex equality or homosexuality don't hold. If you spell the word sergeant, serjeant, or sarrgent, you are still not violating any in-character documentation. ICly, your PC still made the exact same phoenetic sound, and since no one can "read" your speech, there is no problem. Violating the docs would be refusing to address anybody by the Private/Corporal/Sergeant/Lieutenant rank system, and instead coming up with something different to use.
The magic/magick argument does have a better comparison to this debate. On the other hand, magick is used consistently with the same spelling everywhere, and no one seems to have a problem with the extra k. But let's consider another spelling-related scenario:
What if all elementalists used "magick", except for a certain theoretical clan of elementalists who wanted to distinguish themselves by calling their powers "majick" instead. Suppose then somebody from this clan posted on the GDB saying "remember folks, when you're talking about our powers, it's majick with a J". They further defend the difference between spelling majick and magick with arguments that they words are pronounced differently, or that there are documents using the majick spelling, or even that the differences are some huge secret, find out IC! And if, dear fools, you use magick instead of majick, we'll look down on you and your poor spelling.
I hope that this example helps cast light on how silly and confusing using alternate spellings for things is. I don't really care if a document uses "majick" instead of "magick" or "Serjeant" instead of "Sergeant" somewhere, in my mind they're alternate spellings of the exact same phoentic word, and can be used interchangably (but for the sake of consistency and uniformity, one should be chosen over the other and used everywhere.)
Even experienced players all have much, much more important things to remember and be thinking about during play than which clans spell which words which way. It also makes things that much more confusing for the poor new players trying to sort everything out in the game world. I see no benefit given in tradeoff for the added confusion, and so I stand by my earlier statements that I won't perpetuate it and I wish it would be deleted.
Quote from: "ale six"What if all elementalists used "magick", except for a certain theoretical clan of elementalists who wanted to distinguish themselves by calling their powers "majick" instead.
Alright, lets imagine this situation:
There is a sorcerer called Big Guy. He has his own followers and blah blah, spends his time in dark studies blah blah. During the time the group creates own believes, adoring this Big Guy as a Third Sorcerer. One day things happen and the group is forced to split. Before they split, they promise to each other to find more followers, teach them believes and so on. All followers are supposed to meet in place X in ten years. To be able to recognize each other, they decide to make a subtle sign - all of them would pronounce word "magick" as "majick" - the difference in pronouncation is subtle enough to be unnoticed or mistaken as slurr, but if you if you know what to look for...
*shrug* Just a thought.
To mansa:
As I said in my first post, I also believe distinguishing 'serjeant' - 'sergeant' is unimportant. What I was opposing was the attitude: "I didn't like this rule.. I won't obey."
I just didn't want this trend to become popular - finding excuses to disobey the rules of the game, even when the rules feel weird and stupid and even when the rule is something unimportant. I repeat, I believe this 'serjeant' thing is not something likely of much importance and I also believe it could be removed without harming the game. But still "Maybe I'm slurring/They sound the same/You still understand what I say." are excuses to deny the rule. If there's a rule set in the IC gameworld - Serjeants are different from Sergeants - it should be obeyed. Maybe in Sirihish they sound different, eh? If we start breaking unimportant rules, soon excuses will be found for important rules.
Of course my examples were to the extreme, I was in my usual cheerful mood and wanted to make you all smile. I wasn't trying to prove anything. But after reading your post of "Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck" I feel the urge to debate like a nine-year-old boy, calling names and insults.
.....
Instead, I will stop reading this thread.
Quote from: "ale six"If you spell the word sergeant, serjeant, or sarrgent, you are still not violating any in-character documentation. ICly, your PC still made the exact same phoenetic sound, and since no one can "read" your speech, there is no problem.
I'm sorry, but this is where you're wrong. You are -not- making the same phonetic sound, as Serjeant is pronounced differently then Sergeant, which is the argument that really puts all these "It's the same word, only mispelled!" into the position of being moot.
I personally, as a PC, have corrected someone who said Sergeant instead of Serjeant, and I'd do it again in a minute, because the person using the word Sergeant isn't properly identifying the person he wants to talk to. Haven't any of you had your last names, or maybe your first names, mispronounced? Don't you correct somebody nine times out of ten?
Quote from: "Fragmented"I personally, as a PC, have corrected someone who said Sergeant instead of Serjeant, and I'd do it again in a minute, because the person using the word Sergeant isn't properly identifying the person he wants to talk to. Haven't any of you had your last names, or maybe your first names, mispronounced? Don't you correct somebody nine times out of ten?
According to
dictionary.com, there is absolutely no difference in pronounciation between Sergeant and Serjeant. Even if there is in the form of a slight emphasis on the J, I think that correcting it ICly is similar to doing this:
Quote
The tall, muscular man says, in sirihish:
"So I went and talked to those Borsailes earlier and--"
The verbose, adjectivitous man says, in sirihish:
"No, not Bh'orsaillehs, Bh'orsaihhhhh. Bh'orsaihhhhhhhh."
It's like correcting a guy IRL that keeps pronouncing 'money' as "mo-nee" instead of "mah-nee". You can't really tell if it's just an accent or not, and even if it isn't an accent is just really annoying nitpicking.
It's not like people are going around saying the equivalent of 'veHICle' like a certain president does.
Zalanthas is FULL of people that slur and use accents, and Sergeant and Serjeant are words that are so similar that I fully believe that anyone that corrects people about this ICly is acting ridiculous unless they're playing a dwarf whose focus is to teach Zalanthas precisely how to say 'Serjeant'. This difference is also nearly impossible to explain without access to literacy and etymology.
Quote from: "Morfeus"
All followers are supposed to meet in place X in ten years. To be able to recognize each other, they decide to make a subtle sign - all of them would pronounce word "magick" as "majick" - the difference in pronouncation is subtle enough to be unnoticed or mistaken as slurr, but if you if you know what to look for...
*shrug* Just a thought.
How is slurring a word better then picking another word?
If it is spelled with a J just for the sake of being different, but the same, I believe that is crap. Pick a new word.
If it sounds the same, they should be spelled the same. If they don't sound the same, emote slurring out the middle of the word, but have the word right.
If it is something like Lie-U-ten-ant and Loo-ten-ant. Sure, there is a subtle difference, but I much prefer a new word than a change to a commonly accepted word.
I tend to think of these arguments, the ones about english words being used improperly in Zalanthas, should always side with this theme:
Less Confusion For The Players
Much like how the ranks of the Arm of the Dragon were changed to make it less confusing, and the documents were changed to make it less confusing, the difference between Sergeant and Serjeant should be settled to make it less confusing for the players. Just look at using colour and color in main descriptions. I get rejected for using colour. Just look at grey and gray for another example.
There are players here who do not speak english very well. There are players here who have not graduated High School. If we use well-known english words, we shouldn't change the meanings of those words in Zalanthas. We should use made up words in those situations.
In English, there is no difference between Sergeant and Serjeant. Actually, the only difference is the spelling. If you plan on using Serjeant, you better use Serjeant-at-arms and expect it to not differe on that style.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sergeant
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=serjeant
Heck, when you type serjeant into google, it says, 'Did you mean sergeant?'
Again, why are we confusing this situation for our new players?
Here's more links:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=161864#161864
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=149406#149406
http://www.zalanthas.org/ArmDocs/Community/stylesheet.html
Quote from: "Larrath"Zalanthas is FULL of people that slur and use accents, and Sergeant and Serjeant are words that are so similar that I fully believe that anyone that corrects people about this ICly is acting ridiculous unless they're playing a dwarf whose focus is to teach Zalanthas precisely how to say 'Serjeant'. This difference is also nearly impossible to explain without access to literacy and etymology.
I completely agree.
Beyond that, just in Tuluk: Tenneshi has Sergeants, Salarr has Sergeants, the Byn has Sergeants, Kurac has Sergeants, and even the Sun Legion has Sergeants.
Your average, uneducated Tuluki commoner is likely not going to know to say the word differently to Winrothol "Serjeants". I think this means that if Winrothol wanted everyone to use their own slightly different word, the effort to explain that to people would have to be done ICly. They would first need to explain the difference to their own servants and guardsmen, and then make the attempt to educate the rest of Tuluk...
... which as Larrath said, would start to get pretty silly.
So if you want to make the argument that efforts to have the word changed should be done ICly, I'll then ask that IC efforts be made to get people to use it the way you want it to be in the first place. If Winrothol would like to spend IC time and resources informing the whole city to enunciate an extra J sound when addressing their few dozen Serjeants, I suppose they could. To me that sounds like a waste of time. On the other hand, it's exactly the kind of nitpicky thing that a Chosen House might decide to make an issue about if they had nothing better to do.
Let's make another analogy. House Borsail's colors are, as stated in the documentation, crimson and black. Borsail servants and Borsail nobles are taught the House colors are crimson and black, and Atrium students are taught the the colors are crimson and black. This all happens in game.
Suppose somebody is speaking to a Borsail servant...
QuoteThe uneducated commoner says, "Yeah, so I saw one of your guards in those red cloaks..."
The Borsail servant says, "No no, the cloaks aren't RED. They're CRIMSON."
If you think about that in real world terms the guy comes off as being incredibly anal and nitpicky. The colors are so similar to the eyes that the difference is negligible. I don't think, normally, somebody would make this sort of correction. (If you're ordering clothes from a Kadian merchant and you want Borsail-crimson as opposed to Tor-ruby, then sure. Otherwise?)
I can think of lots of other color-related examples. And to me, I think colors would be easier to tell apart than the difference between Sergeant and Serjeant.
All of what I'm getting at is that even if there is an IC difference, it would be so slight that the burden should be on House Winrothol to justify a different usage in the game. Personally I'm skeptical if that could be done. If it can't be, then maybe the word ought to be changed to conform with what everybody else uses everywhere.
But, you see, it's not a change. It's an equally valid spelling that is simply not in common usage any longer. It's the older spelling even.
Regardless of the validity of the spelling, the point is that it does not make a difference ICly, so disrespecting or correcting someone ICly is a bit silly. It is also confusing and unnecessary.
If I were playing in Winrothol, I would spell it the way the documentation says to, but that does not mean that I would agree with it. If Winrothol's rank(s) are supposed to be unique and interesting, then lets use another word entirely for it, rather than using the, from an IC perspective, exact same word. Call them Master Slavers or something. Anything... Just changing a letter in one word is confusing and kind of pointless.
If my weaponcrafter character was supposed to call his products something different and unique, he would not call them 'broad sords' and 'would kutting axs'. I understand that Serjeant is a perfectly valid spelling of the word, but that does not mean that it accomplishes anything.
Quote from: "Armageddon Style Sheet"
Spelling:Unless otherwise instructed, use standard American spelling.
Quote from: "Dictionary.com"
ser·jeant Pronunciation Key (särjnt)
n. Chiefly British
Variant of sergeant.
ser·geant Pronunciation Key (särjnt)
n.
1.
1. Abbr. SGT or Sgt or Sgt. A noncommissioned rank in the U.S. Army or Marine Corps that is above corporal and below staff sergeant.
2. Any of several ranks of noncommissioned officers in the U.S. Army, Air Force, or Marine Corps: master gunnery sergeant; staff sergeant.
3. One who holds any of these ranks.
2.
1. Abbr. Sgt. The rank of police officer next below a captain, lieutenant, or inspector.
2. A police officer holding this rank.
3. A sergeant at arms.
Please note the identical spelling. Serjeant is the British version, and Sergeant is the English version. And please don't say that the style sheet instructs us to use English spelling in all instances of the word 'Sergeant' excluding Winrothol because that's simply ridiculous.
I am willing to use the J variant until the staff looks at this thread and decides to dismiss that whole thing.
Maybe I'm just being a little sheltered, but why does this matter? If you want to roleplay an extremely anal Serjeant who wants everyone to pronounce the world absolutely correctly, wippee. Good for you. Other players should respect you for the effort of the personality quirk.
I do not understand rejecting applications on the basis of mispelling "English" words by using the same terms that come from different dialects (what I mean to say is, color will always mean the same thing as colour, and most players know the different or don't even notice it at all). I'm American (Southern, at that!), but I still understand different dialects of my own language. (That is not to say to go way out and make your descriptions purposely difficult to read.)
All in all, why is this topic so deserving of a lengthy, long-winded conversation? The Arm's ranking and documentation were changed because there was a drastic difference between what was in game and what players found easy to accept. Nitpicking on why something is spelled differently (explaining on the first page of this thread as being the direct result of a different pronunciation) is just being silly, and should just be left in-game, or noted in the proper documentations that the Winrothol are proud little bastards of saying the word "Sargeeant" rather than "Sar-gent".
QuoteAttempting to silence the players by directing them to the staff, and only the staff, is not a solution. Think of how many wonderful and inventive changes have been implemented by the staff because enough players voiced their opinion right here on the GDB.
Wonderful and inventive are the key words there. This is not a wonderful and inventive idea. This is you saying you can't accept a different spelling of a word because it's annoying or stupid to you, and you want it changed. And yet it was made that way in the documentation for a specific reason. Griping about one letter in a word? Not a wonderful and inventive change, and something that you should probably take up with the immortal directly in charge of what's annoying you instead of making it into an OOC discussion based around, "I don't like it, so change it" that is pretty much insured to become heated because of the complete lack of need to change it. Even moreso for the people who actually played in the clan and liked the difference, and perhaps even found out -why- it is different.
To those of you who quote the two variations of the word on dictionary.com, congratulations.
Now, look up braxat for me. Look up Tektolnes. Look up Luir's. Look up T'zai Byn.
In Winrothol, Serjeant is not that same word as the one you're looking up in the real-world dictionary. While spelled the same, the documentation states that it is a different pronunciation and different rank. Therefore, any information you find for me from the definition of how the same-spelled word was used in RL does not apply for me.
In all seriousness, guys, this is an absolutely ridiculously long-winded conversation for something simple. The documentation states it, it's there. Why's it such a -huge- deal to use a 'j' instead of a 'g'?
Oh, right...and the reason I directed people to the staff is that they are the only ones that can change the docs, and they are the people, ultimately, that decide whether to change the docs in the first place. We can debate all we want, and already have, at great length, but when it comes down to it, all you have to do is present your case to the people that decided.
Quote from: "Armaddict"In all seriousness, guys, this is an absolutely ridiculously long-winded conversation for something simple. The documentation states it, it's there. Why's it such a -huge- deal to use a 'j' instead of a 'g'?
I think we've already covered that, but I'll sum up with a partial list of my own complaints:
1) It's confusing for new and old players alike
2) A difference that slight is minute to the point of almost being unrecognizeable ICly
3) It's inconsistent with every single other organisation in the game.
It isn't stated in any public documentation that Winrothol makes it known their people are Serjeants and not Sergeants. Therefore, I think it totally reasonable that the uninformed masses would use the term Sergeant when referring to Winrothol, and not their own term 'Serjeant'. If Winrothol would like everyone to use their own term, I'd like to see that effort made in game instead of an OOC thread telling us to use an alternate spelling on the GDB. If adequate justification can't be found to educate people in game about the difference (see the accent discussions, as well as my majick/magick and color analogies), then maybe the term should not be different at all.
Quote from: "ale six"1) It's confusing for new and old players alike
2) A difference that slight is minute to the point of almost being unrecognizeable ICly
3) It's inconsistent with every single other organisation in the game.
To respond to your points, each.
1. I'd hope people that play a text game won't be too confused by the word being different. It does take some amount of literacy to play a text based game well.
2. So? I mean, to be honest, how do you know? Do you speak Sirihish? In Sirihish, it could sound much different.
3. So? It doesn't have to be. It has internal consistency. Vendyra specifically told me, when I played in Winrothol that she knew what the style sheet said and she was spelling it 'Serjeant.' It's been that way forever. Changing it now would more than likely be quite annoying, as I can be relatively sure there is atleast one object in game that uses the word 'Serjeant' in it. Good luck finding it, though.
Quote from: "ale six"3) It's inconsistent with every single other organisation in the game.
For me, that is just another reason why NOT to change it.
*shrug*
I for one cannot believe such a pointless argument has gone on for seven pages.
I'll go ahead and derail it, then.
QuoteI think the larger question is, Tuluki are communist scum.
Screw you, asshole; that's not even a question. No one bashes communism, damn it - NO ONE!!!!!
Semper Pax,
Dirr
Quote from: "spawnloser"1. I'd hope people that play a text game won't be too confused by the word being different. It does take some amount of literacy to play a text based game well.
I wouldn't be confused. I'd just assume the clan was made of folks who don't know how to correctly spell "sergeant."
I once played in a clan where the lieutenant constantly spelled it "sargeant." Never once did it cross my mind that it might be some kind of wierd clan-only spelling of the word.
In a few weeks this thread will be gone and nobody outside of Winrothol will remember. Or care.
Quote from: "Vesperas"Nitpicking on why something is spelled differently (explaining on the first page of this thread as being the direct result of a different pronunciation) is just being silly, and should just be left in-game, or noted in the proper documentations that the Winrothol are proud little bastards of saying the word "Sargeeant" rather than "Sar-gent".
I've been trying to stay in my hole and leave this argument up to you all, but some of you are concocting untruths. Do you know -why- I chose to post this thread, to simply remind people of this different spelling? (And it was an idle though at that) It wasn't because I, or any other Winrothol Serjeant, am nitpicking or demanding. The reason I finally crawled out of my cave and posted this thread was because, after playing in Winrothol for well over a year and a half, I have been corrected time and time again for spelling a title the proper way. Do you have any idea how frustrating it is to be corrected oocly for spelling something the way it is spelled in the Clan Docs? I have had peoples say to me ooc, "It's sergeant, not serjeant, bud." They address me as if I'm some child, but I am not. Even when they revert to the more commonly used spelling, I know they are thinking behind that computer screen, "this guy doesn't know how to spell." I posted this thread because my observation was that few people knew the correct spelling, and that they would not know the correct spelling unless I posted it here. Judging by the seven pages of responses, I figure many of you know now, so it seems this tact has been effective. I am not saying that I agree with Serjeant being spelled with a J, that I want serjeant to be spelled with a J, or that I think Serjeant being spelled with a J sound differently than sergeant being spelled with a G. What this post was meant to do was simply inform. With that said, I'm glad that we have had this discussion. It was a good discussion about language, its origins, and its clarity, and I'm sure it will effect decisions the staff makes.
Quote from: "Larrath"Isn't 'Serjeant' just the British spelling for Sergeant?
If not, I think it's absolutely silly that every single clan in the game with a Sergeant-like rank uses 'Sergeant' except Winrothol. Winrothol should conform or other clans should be changed so this makes more sense.
Until then, I honestly don't see a reason to bother putting a J instead of a G. It's the exact same word and means the same thing.
Nah Larrath, I've always spelt it Sergeant. Don't think Serjeant is british.
Geez, this G, J thing is enough to keep me, and maybe others, from even playing in Winrothrol.
The Byn sergeant says "It's shit not shet..but fuck if I care, just clean it up."
QuoteThe Byn sergeant says "It's shit not shet..but fuck if I care, just clean it up."
This is pronouced differently because short I and short E are two different sounds.
However, as any middle school English teacher would correct... G followed by an E, I, or Y is pronouced exactly the same as "J"
A correct analogy would be "It's gym not jym"...
Color, Colour, whatever... don't people have better things to discuss??
You should
not be correcting anyone's spelling using the OOC channel.
Quote from: "OOC Channel"OOC (Communication)
This command is exactly like the say command, except that where say is used to express "in character" (IC) speech, the ooc command is used for "out of character" (OOC) speech. The only other important difference is that say will always be translated for language differences and ooc will not.
Think before you use ooc. It is not intended for conveying IC information, nor for discussions of the game mechanics, nor for extended roleplaying debates, nor for getting around language barriers.
It can have a detrimental effect on those around you, jarring them from the atmosphere they've built up. If you have some comment to make, often the OOC bulletin boards, e-mail to the game account, or the web discussion board are more appropriate forums.
Please note that any conversation with an immortal (a member of the staff) is automatically "out of character."
Syntax:
ooc <message>
Examples:
> ooc Sorry, I have to go irl now.
("irl" means "in real life.")
> ooc afk
("afk" means "away from keyboard" and generally means that the player
has had to attend to something, but will be back very shortly.)
Notes:
Try to use the ooc command as little as possible, preferably never.
Imagine what a movie would be like if the actors and actresses kept
breaking out of their roles all the time--the movie would be awful.
Never ever use the ooc command to convey IC information. This is looked
upon very poorly by staff members.
See also:
gone, say, tell, wish
I feel for the original poster. I should be able to spell things however I want to, and not have to have IN GAME consequences because I'm spelling things differently.
I do believe, also, that there should be standards put forth for all clans in regards to the spelling of the ranks, If and only If they are using the English Term they want to. There should be no 'privates' higher than 'jenerals'
Quote from: "Dirr"Screw you, asshole; that's not even a question. No one bashes communism, damn it - NO ONE!!!!!
It's a question alright, and the answer is hell yes!
What's a matter pinko? Is AMERICA not good enough for you? Huh? Huh?
Moved to general discussion. This is not an announcement, and at this point, just barely discussion.
It's pronounced the same, so the spelling doesn't matter? I am so tempted to type out my character's speech entirely phonetically from now on. If you think that's a laugh, go read Feersum Endjinn.
I can't wait until this thread gets bumped in two years by a spam bot and the whole thing starts all over again.
:arrow: There is no phonetic difference between using j and g in "sergeant/serjeant" (see Larrath's earlier post).
:arrow: To get a soft 'j' sound, there is no one letter in the English language that can do it. You have to go to Chinese. In this instance, our alphabetic representation of the sound (similar to joyeux in french) would be 'xi'. Therefore sergeant would be "serxiant".
If this is truly a phonetic issue, change it to "serxiant", or keep it as "sergeant".
Quote from: "LauraMars"I can't wait until this thread gets bumped in two years by a spam bot and the whole thing starts all over again.
:lol:
Serxient would be an awesome name for a rank.
Fear the SERX-I-AUNT.
Look, like it or not, but this is/was a serious discussion to some. It isn't under OOC Chatter, and you should respect that no matter how trivial or silly you think the issue is. Stick to the topic by calling it trivial, or don't post.
I don't think it's trivial. It does bug me that there's this legislated inconsistence in the spelling of Sergeant between the clans, because I hate regarding mud-speech as written text, which this makes me do. It jolts me out of character.
Is it a big enough issue to enough people to bring about a discussion? Apparently. Big enough to drive through a change? Dunno. What are the pros?
And it's not the British spelling. We type it just like you do, and have done so for centuries.
Tamarin...if someone said something before, why repeat it? Since you did, I'll repeat what I said...
I think this discussion has hit an end. Stop complaining to those of us that have no power to change anything. Send an email to the Winrothol IMMs with a point to this discussion, present your case, and see if they'll change.
That simple.
Quote from: "spawnloser"Tamarin...if someone said something before, why repeat it? Since you did, I'll repeat what I said...
I'm really not understanding this comment spawnloser. That was Tamarin's first contribution to the overall thread and he voiced his opinion. That opinion was in agreement with some others stated. That's what a discussion is about - different people discussing the topic and presenting their views. You, on the other hand, have posted about eight times in this thread saying the exact same thing.
For this reason, I don't understand what you are saying about Tamarin's post. Is it invalid because he posted what he thinks and that particular viewpoint was already put forth by multiple other people? He added in a new point of view with a possible alternative so that wasn't brought up before... I don't get it. Why would you point out his post over any of the others?
Is your post even more invalid because you have already posted the exact same viewpoint over and over again?
By your logic, this thread should only be three posts long. The original question. One post saying serjeant with a J sounds like sergeant no matter what anyone says. And one post saying that serjeant does sound differently, although not in english, and that it is written like that in the docs.
My own view, since that's what people do when they are involved in a discussion, is that serjeant with a J should be changed if the purpose of having it spelt with a J is for differentiation based on pronounciation. The pronounciation is exactly the same as sergeant when it is read and spoken out loud.
If the J is there to make it look a little more exotic, that's fine, but no one should get upset ICly if it is written Sergeant - again, there is no difference in the sound.
QuoteI think this discussion has hit an end. Stop complaining to those of us that have no power to change anything. Send an email to the Winrothol IMMs with a point to this discussion, present your case, and see if they'll change.
This can be said about almost every discussion on the board. Yet we like to talk about these things because we are human. There is no need to get a little testy about one particular response over any other; especially when that post presented a new bit of information and a possible suggestion.
Overall, I didn't read many complaints in this thread - I read a lot of well thought out points of view with backing from different sources.
Does a discussion like this help out? I think so. Even if the imms don't make the change to the documentation (and change has been enacted from threads exactly like this one before) players benefit from open discussion about titles and rankings. Perhaps a Winrothol type will read this and realize that if someone write sergeant it is the same as writing serjeant - and therefore, not penalize the person who wrote it. That's not an IC mistake that's an OOC thing since it is the same word. Is it preferable to write serjeant? Sure, 'cause that honors the documentation, but it isn't imperative nor is it a slight to not do so.
It's all been said.