Armageddon General Discussion Board

QuoteAs far as the karma system goes, it's generally recognized as being a major problem with the game.

A few people like it. Many dislike it.

I was one of many who took exception to this statement in another thread. So, now I shall be the one to take the plunge and put it up to a poll.  I am pretty curious just where the responses will lie.

As for myself. I like the system because I think it works just fine.

Dont know yet :)

Could be better.
Could be a helluva lot worse.

I think the several objectives of the staff have been met and the results have generally been IG positive.

Quote from: "Medena"

QuoteAs far as the karma system goes, it's generally recognized as being a major problem with the game.

A few people like it. Many dislike it.

I was one of many who took exception to this statement in another thread. So, now I shall be the one to take the plunge and put it up to a poll.  I am pretty curious just where the responses will lie.

As for myself. I like the system because I think it works just fine.

That was obviously written by someone who dislikes it and is trying to make their opinion sound like that of the majority.  I'd be willing to bet they never bothered to ask most of the playerbase, they just made it up on the fly to suit their own purposes.

Just FYI,

I recently applied for a special character and was told because of some of my previous forum posts, that they didn't feel I was ready for any special characters...

So don't be opinionated about things on the forums, if you want karma, in fact I shouldn't be making this post now...

Jarod

Quote from: "Jarod550"
So don't be opinionated about things on the forums, if you want karma, in fact I shouldn't be making this post now...

I am living proof that you can be opinionated and get karma.

Living until Halaster eats my brainz again.

Hey, since we're touting...


I'm living proof you can do stupid things, loose karma and then gain it back again.

Quote from: "Jarod550"Just FYI,

I recently applied for a special character and was told because of some of my previous forum posts, that they didn't feel I was ready for any special characters...

So don't be opinionated about things on the forums, if you want karma, in fact I shouldn't be making this post now...

Jarod

I don't exactly believe it was your opinions, I believe it was your sarcastic and snide way of writing them in posts that made them not want to accept your application.

Quote from: "Bogre"

I don't exactly believe it was your opinions, I believe it was your sarcastic and snide way of writing them in posts that made them not want to accept your application.

I respectfully disagree.  I suspect it was the part where he made it quite clear (and I don't know if it was sarcasm or not) that he doesn't like to play by the rules or take direction.  Karma requires these.  But if being sarcastic prevented Karma, then few on the boards would have any.

Morrolan

Quote from: "Jarod550"
I recently applied for a special character and was told because of some of my previous forum posts, that they didn't feel I was ready for any special characters...

So don't be opinionated about things on the forums, if you want karma, in fact I shouldn't be making this post now...

Jarod

I imagine it has nothing to do with your opinions and more to do with your attitude and presentation.  I am very opinionated and have no problem stating when I completely disagree with others, be they players or admin.  I have had no problems with karma.

Karma system is fine. I've never been treated unfairly. Few misunderstandings, but the staff are always more than willing to help correct any problems and deal with ANY issue no matter how minor.

We, turkish players are not capable of typing fluent English. We usually have good imagination but usually it's hard for us to voice it on the MUD.

Still we do try and.... As far as I know at least three Turkish players have 5 karma points.

So karma is given if you RP well and are dependable or at least if you try to do a good job with your RP and are dependable.. Sounds fair to me..

The karma system is based on the critical assumption that the staff want what is best for the game as a while, and are right most of the time.

I think that's the case. If it isn't, the karma system is flawed, but then, if it isn't the case, we're fucked on a much greater level and the least of the issues is karma.

QuoteI am living proof that you can be opinionated and get karma.

I second this.

I've been a horrible player at times.  A lot of the times.  And I've tried to be the best of players most of the time.  Sometimes I lose my temper.  Sometimes I piss people off on the board.  Sometimes I argue with the staff.
Sometimes, I'm just a straight up asshole who's wrong but refuses to admit it since I'm put on the defensive.

I'm an example that karma is not given to 'imm-pets', as some people believe and strongly argue for.  The staff is very fair in distributing it and taking it away.

The system works very well for what it's intended to do, and I have no problems with it whatsoever.

oh, to fllow up, i haven't really seen any cases of people deserving karma and not getting it. Maybe it got overlookd and they had to ask for an account review or special app, but I haven't seen any good roleplayers really get fucked by the system.

Though I have heard some inklings of people maybe having more than they deserve. But hey, as long as I get my just deserts, who cares if some one else gets more?

I think that the karma system is fine.  It's taken me a while to get my earlier karma points, but so far the system gave me nothing to dislike; especially since it's possible to special app or request a review.

Just remember that the karma rules are more like guidelines, but its the guide that makes the final nod.

In this line of thinking, the Imms are incredibly fair with what they see. They take into account lots of factors including the whos, the how longs, and the generals of how someone behaves. They also emphazise trust.

Enjoy the game for the game and not for Karma.

Quote from: "Bogre"

Quote from: "Jarod550"Just FYI,

I recently applied for a special character and was told because of some of my previous forum posts, that they didn't feel I was ready for any special characters...

So don't be opinionated about things on the forums, if you want karma, in fact I shouldn't be making this post now...

Jarod

I don't exactly believe it was your opinions, I believe it was your sarcastic and snide way of writing them in posts that made them not want to accept your application.

Okay, then I just won't post so much anymore, and just play, then there won't be any snide remarks to read, in fact, this is my last topic I'm posting to.

Jarod

ps.  See you in game

Jarod.  Don't think you're being ragged on, even though I realize that seems hard at this point.

The karma-required roles require a certain amount of knowledge of the game, how things work, and how some situations should be run.  I think that what was meant when your application was rejected was that some of your views that were posted showed you were still on the learning curve, and just needed some more time and experience to learn more of the niches of the game, so that when you -do- play the role, you contribute with it the way that role is supposed to contribute.

And yes, I will see you in game.  :D

They gave me a few karma points, and I tend to play short lived nobodies. :)   I also rarely make a post worth reading.    I think this  game is great with 0 karma, otherwise I wouldn't have kept coming back over the last ten years.

Karma is fair, the staff are quite nice, karma can live in this land with no ice.

Karma is nice to see, but it doesn't play a big role in my character creation.

Almost all of my favorite, most long-lived, influential and successful characters have been a non-karma race/class combination.  There are a million potential roles I have yet to play within the starting class/race combinations.

As for Jarod550, you don't have to quit posting.  Just listen to what people are saying and consider it.  In time, you will come around and another player will be making posts like yours to which you will say, "I was just like you, once."

-LoD

I'm not trying to instigate a revolución, and nor am I complaining, but I do see the negative points of the karma system that as far as I can tell, no one here's seen fit to express.

I think the single biggest problem with it is the fact that it sort of feels like players are being "ranked", and judge themselves (and possibly their peers) based on this 0-8 scale of karma-to-no-karma. I think a lack of karma could undermine a player's confidence in themselves and in this game or its staff simply because their efforts weren't noticed, or possibly because the things they did wrong were just never pointed out to them. This is to be expected; if the staff numbers less then the playerbase, it's unavoidable that they will miss things. To clarify, I am not suggesting the staff and playerbase numbers be equal - I am simply stating fact.

I understand that this is not the true purpose of the karma system, but I'd find it hard to believe that anyone could deny that that's how it is often interpreted. No re-explanation here will change this - again, I know the "actual" purpose of the karma system.

The special app process is fine, but it's also pretty daunting. I shied away from it for a very long time myself because I'm not sure how I feel about having my ability as a roleplayer judged on such an inherently heavy-handed "yes or no", "black or white", "you-can-handle-this or you-cannot-handle-this" scale. This is made more frustrating when one must endure this process with the knowledge that someone with, say, one more karma than themselves could have written, been approved, and been playing the same character within an hour.

I imagine other players feel some of these things as well, though there's a certain fear present (that few or none here will be admitting to) that expressing complaints on the GDB or elsewhere will draw the ire of the staff.

And just so we're clear, I'm not blaming the staff. These are flaws inherent to the system. I do not feel that I, personally, have even been judged unfairly, so don't go there. My opinion on the whole of the karma system is a positive one. I don't think we could do much better, but I do think we could do a little better and create less work for the staff and the playerbase in the process.

Thank you.

-Supreme Allah

Last minute addendum: since I'm criticizing the popular opinion, I foresee someone asking, "Well, YOU do better than our current system then!" Here's my pre-emptive answer:

1. Reduce the number of karma ranks. Hand out karma less to counterbalance.
2. Make more rare, immediately-powerful roles special-app only. (Muls, Sorcerers, Mindbenders, possibly Half-Giant)
3. Simplify the special application process.

i'm tomuch of a newb to know yet so i'm with holding my vote...

Quote from: "LoD"Karma is nice to see, but it doesn't play a big role in my character creation.

Almost all of my favorite, most long-lived, influential and successful characters have been a non-karma race/class combination.  There are a million potential roles I have yet to play within the starting class/race combinations.

-LoD

This is worth repeating. The funnest roles for me, by far, are those which allow for the most player interaction. And those roles are hands-down those which require no karma to play.

-Supreme Allah

Quote from: "Jarod550'Okay, then I just won't post so much anymore, and just play, then there won't be any snide remarks to read, in fact, this is my last topic I'm posting to.

Jarod

ps.  See you in game

Actually, you might find this is a good idea for reducing the frustration factor. I've been trying, although as you can see, not quite successfully yet.

Jarod, just don't worry about karma. The races and classes it opens up may be new and exciting, but they're also way more limited to play. You really can have just as much fun or more with the basic races and classes, and without the feeling in the back of your mind that someone is watching you all the time, so that as soon as you mess up just once it will all go away.

I've always been unsure about the communication wall between the staff and players. Once in a while (at least in the past) Nessalin would appear to chew you out. It wasn't fun, but at least you learned something about how you were expected to play. Being evaluated without feedback is a clumsy tool for building RP quality. If a storyteller is about to put a black mark on your record, why should he or she be able to take you aside at a quiet time and talk to you about it? Preferably in a polite way, of course.

Previous post correction: "why shouldn't he or she"

Sometimes the GDB sucks.

Sometimes the GDB rocks.

Sometimes you get accepted.

Sometimes you get declined.



Do what you have to, Jarod, to enjoy the game.

The karma system is, in theory, great. It falls short every now and then in application, but there is nothing that can be done about this. It works as good as anything can, and I'm fine with it. I do feel that certain players and player-types (Imm-pets, as someone called them) have easier access to karma, but it isn't, as far as I know, as insidious as it seems at a glance. Simply put, players who get into larger roles have more imm interaction, via e-mailing reports, NPC animation, and just the general over-the-shoulder watching that leader types and other important roles require. This leads to more karma, not because the staff is being unfair, but because they can only see so much and be in so many places at once.

There are, of course, exceptions. I'm sure a fair bit of karma has been given for foragers who can paint an amazing picture of the role, etc, but this, from my experience, is generally how it stands.

Quote from: "Supreme Allah"

Quote from: "LoD"Karma is nice to see, but it doesn't play a big role in my character creation.

Almost all of my favorite, most long-lived, influential and successful characters have been a non-karma race/class combination.  There are a million potential roles I have yet to play within the starting class/race combinations.

-LoD

This is worth repeating. The funnest roles for me, by far, are those which allow for the most player interaction. And those roles are hands-down those which require no karma to play.

-Supreme Allah

This is also the kind of thing that means absolutely nothing to those newbies who have no karma and would really, really like some. It's like the rich man who leans out of his limo and tells the poor man on the street that money will just make him unhappy.

It's also the kind of thing you're only in a position to say once you've had the chance to dabble in the more powerful roles, something your average newbie is going to have to wait literally years to do.

Not that the statement is necessarily untrue - it simply holds zero meaning for everyone except those who have enough experience to agree.

edit: I picked the middle option, though the perfect one for me would have said "I think the system is just fine, but I sure would like a few more points."

That was very well said, Cale_Knight, and a good point.

Also keep in mind that constantly seeing pages and pages of blank race/guild types upon creation is a reminder that the staff either overlooks you or doesn't trust you. I'm sure it can be a source of frustration, regardless of whether or not the player wants to play a mindbending mul sorcerer.

The karma system isn't perfect.
It certainly wasn't designed to meet every possible objective, and even the objectives it does address, it doesn't always address fully and fairly. That said, any system run by humans, which oddly enough the staffers are, isn't perfect.

As a player gains karma, new classes and races are opened up for play. Do they know how to play these races... no, likely not. They may have seen some good examples, they may not have, but they have proven themselves in the eyes of the staff in some measure, to allow them the chance, if they wish, to attempt to play these new roles. If they play them poorly, and even after suggestions and comments, they still do so, it's very possible that the class/race may be revoked, possibly karma lost. This can happen with folks who just can't understand the mentality of a desert elf, the intrinsic qualities of a specific type of magicker, or whatever.

Karma is not something hard and fast. It's subjective. As people have stressed time and time again, it almost always implies a level of trust. I'm not sure what people think of when they say, "imm-pets", or when people point out that it's easier to earn karma in a clan as they are generally watched. But often there is a bit of truth in most fictious statements. Characters who are given responsibilites, or take it, and do it in a non-abusive manner are likely to be more trusted. Those who "get it", and interact with a text world, in a manner that shows they understand there are vnpcs, tribes, cultures, weather, that you tire, bleed, hurt, have emotions, and all the rest. People who are helpful and cordial in their communications, looking to understand and further the game.  Are these people perfect? Far from it.

Truth is, it's a lot harder to lose karma then get it. Over time, most folks, if only by asking and collecting no flak, acquire karma. There are a number of people with karma that are perfectly happy playing the basic class/races, which I tend to agree with. Hopefully there will always be new people joining this game, and therefore people with less karma. But I have a feeling that if a study was done, we'd discover that if we killed everybody tomorrow, the next day, _many_ folks could all start up a desert elf or magicker.

Quote from: "Cale_Knight"This is also the kind of thing that means absolutely nothing to those newbies who have no karma and would really, really like some. It's like the rich man who leans out of his limo and tells the poor man on the street that money will just make him unhappy.

It's also the kind of thing you're only in a position to say once you've had the chance to dabble in the more powerful roles, something your average newbie is going to have to wait literally years to do.

I don't know about this.  When I had just started playing here I remember thinking (as I read a GDB thread about karma) that I didn't really care if I ever got karma because all the roles that appealed to me were zero karma.

[cut to a couple of years and a few karma points later]

While it does feel good to know I have earned the trust of the staff and is thrilling to know I -could- play some roles if I wanted... I still feel basically the same. The fact is, I have yet to play a karma-required role.

Oh, my other problem with the karma system is a picky one. I hate that the one-point karma option is desert elf.

I doubt I'll ever play a desert elf. It's a role that brings with it a lot of solo RP, and that's not what I go in for. So when I got that first point and saw the new option available, it was entirely anticlimactic.

But that's a nitpicky thing, and not an entirely serious complaint.

Really looking forward to that second point, though!

Well... why not set up a training server, then? Let people log in as what they want, with some skills buffed up, and practise with each other. Loosen the rule about ooc communication to the extent that people can advsie each other about role play. Maybe once someone's had a taste of what it's like playing a slow, ponderous half-giant that always realizes the point of what was being said far too late, they'll not feel as excluded.

Quote from: "Cale_Knight"Really looking forward to that second point, though!

Oh yeah.  I completely agree with everything you said.  This is one of my only miffs about karma, and it's totally teeny.  I'm not so interested in d-elves.  I wish they interacted with the main playerbase more or I'd be all over it, 'cause the concept is neat and I have some ideas.  Point two has got it going on.  A completely new code and abilities to roleplay with and discover.

I'm having fun with my completely karmaless characters, by the way.  And could continue doing so.  It's just that karma is like ice cream.  You don't need to have it to enjoy your delicious meal of spagetti, but it is yummy.  Also you can keep it in the freezer and forget about it until you really want it.

Quote from: "Supreme Allah"I think the single biggest problem with it is the fact that it sort of feels like players are being "ranked", and judge themselves (and possibly their peers) based on this 0-8 scale of karma-to-no-karma. I think a lack of karma could undermine a player's confidence in themselves and in this game or its staff simply because their efforts weren't noticed, or possibly because the things they did wrong were just never pointed out to them.

I don't see how you can look at karma as a ranking system. You may know how much karma -you- have, but that doesn't tell you much about anyone else. And really, I think most people would know the reasons for whatever their karma level is. Have you been playing long? Are you still getting over some bad account notes? Have most of your roles been independent or had little cause for observation? Did your longest lived character last one week? And if you don't know, you can always email the staff and ask. You may have just been overlooked, in which case it can be corrected.

For the most part I wouldn't look at an 8-karma player and think they were better or worse than me simply because of their karma level. I also wouldn't consider myself any better a player than a 0-karma player just because I had a few points. Somebody with 8 karma is probably just a player who's been around a lot longer than I have and has proved they don't do stupid or twinky things. Somebody with 0 karma is probably either just new, hasn't been noticed, or is still 'getting' the game. Since karma isn't directly related to roleplaying ability either, I don't think it'd be a good thing to rank yourself on compared to other players.

QuoteI imagine other players feel some of these things as well, though there's a certain fear present (that few or none here will be admitting to) that expressing complaints on the GDB or elsewhere will draw the ire of the staff.

With the amount of opinionated complaining done on the GDB (and lots of it done by older, veteran players), I don't think this is quite true. Flaming, trolling, etc may be a different story.


I'm really glad this poll is showing the results it does, though. I hope it's encouraging to the new player who asked about the karma system, if he/she sees it.

I guess my frustration is the amount of time and effort I put into the game and characters, then one dies to whatever, and I hit the create to see that all my stuff is the same.

Tell ya the truth, even if I had one karma and had a desert elf, I probably wouldn't play one right away until I learned more about how you're supposed to play one.

But don't pm this account like some of you have (appreciate it all, but it's cool) and don't respond in this thread, I'm unwatching everything and asked that my forum account be killed.

Jarod

Quote from: "ale six"I don't see how you can look at karma as a ranking system. You may know how much karma -you- have, but that doesn't tell you much about anyone else. And really, I think most people would know the reasons for whatever their karma level is. Have you been playing long? Are you still getting over some bad account notes? Have most of your roles been independent or had little cause for observation? Did your longest lived character last one week? And if you don't know, you can always email the staff and ask. You may have just been overlooked, in which case it can be corrected.

For the most part I wouldn't look at an 8-karma player and think they were better or worse than me simply because of their karma level. I also wouldn't consider myself any better a player than a 0-karma player just because I had a few points. Somebody with 8 karma is probably just a player who's been around a lot longer than I have and has proved they don't do stupid or twinky things. Somebody with 0 karma is probably either just new, hasn't been noticed, or is still 'getting' the game. Since karma isn't directly related to roleplaying ability either, I don't think it'd be a good thing to rank yourself on compared to other players.

Well, honestly I think the remainder of my first post that you didn't quote answers your response pretty well, Ms. Six. Rating might've been a better word than ranking, in afterthought. Regardless though, I understand that's not the purpose of the karma system - my point was that that's how it's often going to be interpreted. Nothing you said is wrong, but that's just not how it's always looked at when certain players are given more privilege than others. Whether or not that can be completely corrected, it's still a noteworthy flaw.

A player that doesn't get karma when they feel they deserve it, whether or not they express it outright, is going to be at least bothered by a lack of karma. And that could drive a potential player of our game elsewhere, if it persists over time.

Quote from: "ale six"With the amount of opinionated complaining done on the GDB (and lots of it done by older, veteran players), I don't think this is quite true. Flaming, trolling, etc may be a different story.

Very little of it is in direct criticism of the staff or the method of their madness. I remember a lengthy debate me and an immortal, Xygax, had on these boards some time ago (around a year or two ago I believe - you can look it up if you like), during which I got more than a couple PMs expressing that I was crazy for arguing with him so directly even though I never took it beyond the realm of the subject itself.

Maybe it's just me, but another flaw of this system just appears that players fear the staff here because of the vast amount of control they have over the world. I've heard of more than one instance where players have made mistakes they genuinely felt that the staff would never, ever forgive them for, or that it would at least take years for them to overlook.

Again, this isn't a problem that necessarily warrants correction - I think that at least overall, it's for the best - but there are definitely flaws present, and I think there's room for improvement.

But perhaps that's just my opinion.

-Supreme Allah

Quote from: "Supreme Allah"Regardless though, I understand that's not the purpose of the karma system - my point was that that's how it's often going to be interpreted. Nothing you said is wrong, but that's just not how it's always looked at when certain players are given more privilege than others. Whether or not that can be completely corrected, it's still a noteworthy flaw.

I guess I agree then, sure. Karma is a rating on how well you're trusted, but that isn't exactly the same as how good a player you are, or how you compare to other players. We can't help if people misinterpret that. I wouldn't be in the position to know if players are leaving the game because they don't get karma, but I would guess there are few who would. Especially when the staff are fair and seem to generally be frank with telling people why they can't play a certain role if they aren't judged good enough for it, and what they can do to get there.

QuoteVery little of it is in direct criticism of the staff or the method of their madness. I remember a lengthy debate me and an immortal, Xygax, had on these boards some time ago (around a year or two ago I believe - you can look it up if you like), during which I got more than a couple PMs expressing that I was crazy for arguing with him so directly even though I never took it beyond the realm of the subject itself.

Maybe it's just me, but another flaw of this system just appears that players fear the staff here because of the vast amount of control they have over the world. I've heard of more than one instance where players have made mistakes they genuinely felt that the staff would never, ever forgive them for, or that it would at least take years for them to overlook.

Is that a problem that's even specific to Armageddon or due to the karma system, though? Administrators of just about every mud have vast authority over the world and the players, and have the ability to get rid of people they don't like or disagree with.

I've been a victim of some horrible, terrible staffs on other MUDs. I've seen games which literally became unplayable because of staff cheating, backbiting, and vindictiveness. Thankfully I've seen none of that here, and that's a huge reason why I like the game so much. I feel like I can disagree with a staff member if I had a differing view and not worry about IC retribution against my PC, or worry about me losing karma. I guess my point is that if you took out karma completely and let everybody play every role unrestricted, it wouldn't make people fear the staff any more or any less. Luckily we have fair and just staff members and I don't really see a need to fear them either way. And here they come for my brains after saying that, so... I'm done.

Well, I'm perfectly willing to state my opinions, even when it goes against staff and still have karma.

Also, played LONG before Karma, and remembering that time, heh, I don't know if karma is the best system possible, but it is certainly better then nothing. And doing a good enough job that I don't think about it much.

Anybody else remember mantis PC's sitting down in flints or at the fountain?

I voted the second option because I am generally quite satisfied with the system.

One drawback I would see to it is that those that are more visible, or more aggresive in contacting the staff are much more likley to be noticed than those folks who keep a low profile.  Thats not to say it can't be done, it's just that the likelyhood of being noticed is higher for these other folks.

The only other problem I see, affects getting karma.  That is feedback on your roleplay.  Once again, those who are more agressive in asking for feedback, or those that are really bad are likely to get much feedback.  You could work on the premise that no news is good news, but it isn't really very helpful.

I would like to encourage staff to comment not only on the bad behaviour, but also for good roleplaying if that is the case. I would also like to see more proactive commenting.  That is encouraging a player to develop a certian portion of thier roleplay that they see showing promise or needing work.  Not just comment on the spectaclarly good or horrificly bad.  A good way to keep a new player enthused and looging in regularly is by making him feel noticed and valuble.

I would also encourage players to send constructive feedback through the IMMs within reason.  Many times we as players see more than a few IMMs could ever do, don't just comment on the bad stuff.

I got tired of reading all the replies...so I'll just state something:

This game is run by people that volunteer their time and do what they think will make the game better.  They have the control.  This is not a democracy, it is an oligarchy with them in charge.

That is all.

Three and a half years of playing have netted me a solid stack o' karma.

I have in no way been affected by ranting and raving on the GDB. And trust me, I've raged about some dumb shit. Nor has my lack of 'reports' hurt me in any visible way. Only sent in one special app in all my time here, and have only exchanged a handful of emails with any Immortals. I wouldn't say I'm a player that tries to keep a low profile, rather, I play for my own enjoyment.

I think the Karma system is a good one. I've personally never been treated unfairly, and 99% of the people I've spoken to who claim to have been harassed/ignored/slaughtered/punished unfairly have all either been throwing a hissy fit, or well deserving of their slap on the wrist. Most don't see it at the moment, some don't ever see it, but nearly all have deserved their punishment but been blinded by the 'Nuh-Uh!' syndrome.

Perhaps the answer is for the immortals to try to swoop down on 0-karma accounts that are regularly logged in. If a newer player is devoting so much time to Armageddon, they're obviously passionate. A brief email explaining how the Imms feel about a player's style of play could easily mean the difference between six months of 0-karma, idiocy-filled newbness and a dedicated, knowledgeable, albeit new player.

-WP emotes something about fellating the karma system.

Quote from: "spawnloser"This game is run by people that volunteer their time and do what they think will make the game better.  They have the control.  This is not a democracy, it is an oligarchy with them in charge.

That's very nice, but I don't see why this should stop anyone from making any suggestion that they honestly believe could help the game.

The MUD is managed by humans, not robots.  Sometimes humans can use new ideas, suggestions, or people pointing out things that are missing.  The Watch command, for example - would it have gone in if nobody ever talked about it?
Probably not.

There is one problem within Karma system that I have noticed. I might be wrong, or there might be some sort of mechanism that is fixing the problem that I am simply am unaware of.

Basically, Karma does not deteriorate from use. A character creating an 8 karma character will be "theoretically" able to do it once more once the character croaks. While I am fairly certain there are a number of "subtle" mechanisms that discourage continious use of high karma req. guilds, it doesnt work aswell for low/mid karma ones.

For example, I would feel that it is wrong to have a higher percentage of karma characters, then non karma ones. It's hard to hate magickers so to speak, when ... there's more of them then of your regular simpler folks (and yes, I mean PCs alone)

How to fix it ? I do not know, perhaps create a mechanism that would demand a delay between use of multiple karma characters. Say, 1 month per each point of Karma. This way, if you'll play out an 8 karma character, you will have to wait 8 months till playing ANY karma character again. Or you can just play a desert elf every other month. (After rereading this paragraph I find that kind of fix kind of fierce. But generally it's relaying the idea well enough)

As for the matter of addressing those (few, I am guessing Non-Karma'd players are in minority to those Karma'd ones), who feel they are being continiously looked over, I propose ... a lottery.

Basically, a mechanism that randomly provides a 'seriously' high karma character option to any Non Karma PC. At which point, the player who "won" the lottery, has the abiltiy to either accept it or let it pass by to another. Such lottery characters would first and foremost require some player-creator dialogue, in order for the creator to explain some vital points aswell as perhaps assign some enforced ideas/motivations to that high karma character. And then ... finally, that player is allowed to play it out, under close supervision of an Imm obviously.

What happens then is hard to guess, their 8 karma sorc might die the next hour, or twink out and then be killed off with a bit of GM guidance. Or ... really shine and prove how interesting and responsible a player those guys are.

What could possibly be dangerous about that ? That your other characters you actually 'worked' for will get killed by a lotteried idiotic character? Well, that's life, and it actually feels pretty similar to having your chara die off to any special app character I would suppose.

This has been brought up before, and ultimately if the staff feels there are enough of a particular high karma class in the game already, they have every right to reject an application for one.

The simple fact of the matter is that a system is needed to restrict players from playing anything they want.  Instead of constantly playing policeman, the best way to do this is to restrict character options based upon past performance.  This is essence what the karma systems.  It is a simple rating system that allows for the restriction of powerful roles to those who have shown themselves to be trustworthy over time.  Some sort of system is needed to do this.

People complain about the karma system by pointing out that it is subjective and could potentially lead to favoritism of some sort outside of the realm of merit.  What they rarely do is provide an alternative.  Sure, the karma system is without a doubt flawed.  It is flawed because it is run by humans.  So long as it is run by humans they will miss things, certain biases will be applied, and they will not use a uniform grading scale.  

There is no alternative.  This is as good of a system as you can get.  I have yet to hear anyone put forward a system that does a better job avoiding the problems that exist in the karma system.

Personally, I am very happy with the karma system.  As far as I can tell, the staff has done a solid job keeping an open mind and judging players fairly.  Is the system perfect?  Of course not.  It is about as good as it gets though.  I love to rack my brain for ways to improve things, and the karma system is one of the few areas where I am totally blank on ideas.

I think what Folker described with his lottery system is very similar to a special app (discussing goals/motivations/limitations of a guild, etc). And we have that anyway.  I would absolutely not want to see high karma guilds passed around via a lottery. I would not want to see anyone playing a sorceror, mindbender, mul, nilazi, etc, if they didn't know what they were doing. It would totally break the mystery and the continuity of the gameworld for me if those sorts of roles were being played poorly.

In response to Folker, at any given point in time, the numbers of people playing magickers/restricted races is about in proportion to what I would expect. At certain times of the day it might feel like there are a disproportionate number of, say, magickers, but it evens out over the course of a day. The number of magickers you'll see (or know about) is also very dependent on geographical location. Gemmed in Allanak are very visible. Their magicker counterparts in Tuluk are hiding what they are (or dead), so, it probably appears that there are fewer magickers running around Tuluk than Allanak.

Here's another scenario that crops up. Let's say that the game has 4 active sorcerer PCs, they log on for a couple of hours a day, and at least 10-15 hours a week. Normally, though, let's say they're not all on at the same time or around the same geographic region when they are. You maybe bump into one sorcerer very infrequently. You think everything's fine. One day, though, something just happens to be going on and you run into 3 different sorcerers in the space of a couple hours. The common player conclusion is, "WE'RE OVERRUN WITH SORCERERS! THERE'S TOO MUCH MAGICK!!!" when in fact, there've been that many PCs all along, you just happened to have a bad run of things.

Another thing to note is that a lot of high karma players enjoy playing the mundane classes as well. Sure, having 8 karma means you can play whatever you'd like, but generally speaking, most people don't just make magicker after magicker.

I played when karma did not exist.  Everyone had full opportunity to play anything.

I played in Tuluk (I played in 'nak as well of course but for this example).

One in three PCs was a sorcerer.

One in three PCs was an elementalist.

One in three PCs was a non-magick class.

How do I know so many were casters?  I played a magicker myself.

Things were quite different back then.  Let's not talk about the mantis and halflings hanging out in the cities.

Karma has helped the game.  Because of the open policies in how it is handled I don't see it as a problem at all.

IMO an RPI game such as ARM can not be depended on some codes or criterias hard coded. I do not see any other way then some Game Masters to decide to give certain roles to certain players. Current Karma system is the best I can think of doing it.

Speaking for my own situation, I think it is pretty easy to get Karma as it is now (My level of English is low for ARM standarts, I have hard time to communicate RL with anyone but Turks, I do not know any staff). I would want it to be very very hard to get any karma points after d-elf point.

Edited to Add: I see Karma roles(especially magickers); hard to play, boring, depending on solo-rp a lot, with a lot of limitations, needing some periodic skill-train, alone roles.

PS. When I see some unneccesary a lot of supernatural things going on IG, I lose my concentration and begin to see dark screen, not Zalanthas.

Quote from: "Cuusardo"This has been brought up before, and ultimately if the staff feels there are enough of a particular high karma class in the game already, they have every right to reject an application for one.

Just the opposite. The staff has said that they will never reject a normal application for a high-karma role simply because there are a lot of them in the game. It's the special apps that are going to get screwed over - the people who never have the chance to play those roles anyway.

Am I misremembering a thread a while back where an imm (Naiona I think), asked people with high karma to not app so many high-karma roles because it meant rejecting most of the special apps?

Quote from: "Jarod550"Just FYI,

I recently applied for a special character and was told because of some of my previous forum posts, that they didn't feel I was ready for any special characters...

So don't be opinionated about things on the forums, if you want karma, in fact I shouldn't be making this post now...

Jarod

Going along with everyone else, mate, it doesn't have to do with argueing.  It has to do with how your argue and how much you argue.  If you're going to bitch about every little things wrong with the game, then you're not going to get a lot of respect around here.  Also, I don't know the details of your special app, but it looks like you just recently joined this forum.  Therefore, it could be that you where not experienced enough for such a role too.

Also, for those of you who don't think the karma system is absolutely incredible like I do, I say, "look at your RP."  Do you feel like your do an ok job of role-playing?  Well, if that includes emoting before kicking, bashing, sapping, tracking, fleeing, subduing, sitting and what not, I say that's just the bear essentials.  There is nothing worthy of karma in those actions alone.  Don't just think about how you can make your emotes pretty, think also about how you can make your actions typify your character.  When was the last time you RPed out sickness, dancing, romance, embarrassment, a card or dice game, or a festering wound.  Are you consistant in the way you emote things and have you thought about every habit you bestowed upon your character?  I think most of the people who don't like the karma system are the newer players.  You will get karma some day, and you will realize then just how much more you needed to know then now.

Quote from: "Cale_Knight"
Am I misremembering a thread a while back where an imm (Naiona I think), asked people with high karma to not app so many high-karma roles because it meant rejecting most of the special apps?

That issue came up here, but that might not be the thread you mean.

Quote from: "Aldiel"...  Also, I don't know the details of your special app, but it looks like you just recently joined this forum.  Therefore, it could be that you where not experienced enough for such a role too.

My time of joining the forums is what's fucked me the most in my opinion, I never should have joined a board where my responces are sought, and then because they go against popular belief or rational, are considered wrong.

I'll say it again, stop directing posts at me, I'm not trying to speak on here any more then I have to, so I can't get canned answers like "I have discussed your application with the rest of the staff and we feel that your many recent posts on the GDB suggest that you are not quite ready for a special character yet." from staff.

So speak about whatever you wish, but stop looking for my responces, if I just stop talking to you folks, and just play, I feel it will increase my chances.

Jarod

I find that I, personally, learn best when I am quiet and listen.

Quote from: "moab"I find that I, personally, learn best when I am quiet and listen.

I am a hands on guy, I don't want people to tell me how to do something, I find my own way.

Jarod

Then find your own way.

But understand that people that HAVE done this many, many times before, and have an actual understanding of what the fuck is going on will most likely have some input that could be useful.

Personally, if someone gave me a suitcase nuclear bomb, I wouldn't just run with it.  I would ask how to use it, how to disarm it, and what the minimum safe distance is to detonate, along with many many other questions.  I wouldn't just try to run with it.

Having a suitcase nuclear bomb is EXACTLY what magick is in this game.

By all means, find your own way.  I'll be about four miles to the east of you, waiting for the cloud.

/derail

The karma system in place is tried and tested, and widely appreciated.  Perhaps a good piece of advice is to understand that the staff are not trying to hurt your ego or stomp your dreams (NOTE:  I give no guarantee about brainz eating).  They're letting you come to an understanding about things that you do not yet understand, by letting you be around them before you become one of those things you do not yet understand.

And clouds are only good IRL. Clouds IG are very bad.

Quote from: "Jarod550"
I am a hands on guy, I don't want people to tell me how to do something, I find my own way.

Hands on is great.

But, if you solicit for advice listen to it.  If you are posting then you are soliciting for responses.  Therefore, when you get a response read it with an open mind and thank the person for taking an effort and time to respond at all.

You may not like the responses you receive but that is not reason to be belligerent or ungrateful.

Has posting here hurt your chances at getting karma?  Probably.  Why?  Because of the lack of class and politeness in your responses.

It's fine to have ideas, thoughts, and dissenting views and / or opinions but one should always remain civil and not descend into flames.

Will your stopping posting here do anything to rectify the situation?  Not really.  You've dug your hole.  Now it is up to you to prove to the community as a whole you are willing to participate in a constructive manner and not as a disruptive manner.

If you wish to make amends - then continue to post, continue to stay engaged, and show everyone that you are a mature player and member of the community.

I think at some time or another we've all posted dissenting views.  There's no problem with doing that.  It's just how you post and how you come across that is the thing to watch.  I'm guilty of going off the deepend myself and for that I apologize to everyone - sometimes we get a little heated.  :)

I dont know if it is still the case, but I remember reading years ago that the staff consisted of exclusively US Americans with one Brit and one Australian mixed in. I believe the biggest flaw of the karma system is that it so much favors US timezone players over others. Yes there are off peak players who have gotten karma, but I'm sure there are just as many or more who feel overlooked.

Maybe you are doing this already, but would it be possible to recruit more staff members who specifically have time for the mud at low peak and off peak hours?

Another flaw, in my opinion, is the fact that it depends so much on immortals having time. I was in a clan with one single, (back then) horribly busy imm, who told me I did way too little of one thing, and I fell out of the sky because I had done this thing almost every day. The imm just hardly ever had the time to watch me at all, especially at the times I played.

Additionally, the karma system screws those who somehow (bad luck, lack of knowledge or consistently refusing to share OOC knowledge about danger with their character) just cant manage to keep a character alive for a long time. As in, 3 months or more. Very often it seems to be the long-lived PCs who get karma, especially in leader roles.

On the other hand, the mud is much better off with the karma system than without it.  :wink:

You will be VERY hard pressed to find a time when NO staff is in the game, Akaramu.  Everyone, no matter the timezone, can get watched.  The Karma system favors people in clans, not in the US.

Also remember: peak hours mean more IMMs, but they mean more -players- to watch, too.  If you're one of only four players online, you've got a decent chance of catching the attention of the one or two IMMs around.

Also, keep in mind that Cenghiz, a Turkish off-peak player (I believe I've heard him mentioning the low player numbers when he plays) frequently mentions his high karma, and in this very thread mentioned that several other Turkish players also have achieved this.

Quote from: "Cale_Knight"Just the opposite. The staff has said that they will never reject a normal application for a high-karma role simply because there are a lot of them in the game. It's the special apps that are going to get screwed over - the people who never have the chance to play those roles anyway.

Am I misremembering a thread a while back where an imm (Naiona I think), asked people with high karma to not app so many high-karma roles because it meant rejecting most of the special apps?

Despite this, they still have every right to reject any application they see fit to, for whatever reason(s) they have.

I know that they have rejected people in the past who repeatedly played high-karma roles and nothing else...like someone that played nilazi after nilazi.  I think that's the pst that joyofdiscord was referencing, telling people to cut that out.

On a side note, a surefire way NOT to get karma is to let OOC grudges, feelings, opinions and such affect your PCs' actions in the game.

I agree the game would be in much worse shape without the Karma system.  A crappy paraphrase:

"Armageddon's Karma system is the absolute worse way to ensure game consistency... except for every other system we've been able to think of."

The biggest challenge I have seen with it is that it takes time.  There is no way around that.  Newer players, the ones who need the most feedback (and sometimes reassurance), simply aren't going to get it from the Karma system.  A newer player, even an excellent newer player, simply will not have the Karma that she is capable of.  A six-month newbie might truly be more trustworthy, more considerate of the environment, and be more consistent in her involvement with her PC's character than a three-year player.  I've seen it happen.  Who will have more Karma?  The older player.  Karma is not a rating of ability.  It is a rating of demonstrated trustworthiness over time.

Time is the key.  You have to be around long enough to play through situations that demonstrate that reliability.  I remember one situation in which my PC got raided.  I had been playing for a couple of years at that point.  I played the scene out (I did a so-so job I thought), but found out later from my annual check of my account notes that the raider had been an animated IMM PC, and I had got a positive comment from him.  Demonstrated trustworthiness to the complex environment of the scene, and got noted.

I had been through dozens of scenes like that.  Some I had handled with more flair, but this was the one that got noticed.  Reliability to the gameworld environment over time.  I was capable of earning that comment years ago, but it took till then to have a chance to show it.

Patience sucks.  Hate it, but there it is.


Seeker

Totally agree with ya, Seeker. :)

I think you can get reasonable amount of Karma is very short period of time.

Here are my steps to get Karma. If I can get karma, anyone can get Karma, because at one point I know for a fact that I was one of the most misguided n00bs playing the game:

Get Karma in 7 easy steps:

1) App a character, have it be well thought out and realistic.

2) Play the character in a reasonable, well thought out manner.

3) Send a weekly updates to your clan imms or the indy imms. In these emails explaining what you are doing, why and what your character is up to and why, how your character feels and what his or her motivations are.

Bear in mind these may or may not get read, whats important is that your character and their actions are being documneted. Biography works for this as well now. (I love bio - It rules)

4) Play the character out and eventually die.

5) Then, if you want karma, send in a special app for 1 level higher then you currently have. If you don't have Delf, don't ask for a Nilazi, 1 level higher, no more.

You'll either be approved or disapproved.

6) If are disapproved, repeat 1-4 and try again.

7) If you are approved go to step 8

8) Repeat steps 1-5 with your new 1 level higher karma char

9) When the char dies, send a mail to the mud and ask how you did and if you can keep the karma.

10) If you deserve it, the Imms will give it to you and now you have Karma. If you don't well, the Imms will politely tell you why and you will have a greater appreciation for the Karma system, because most likely you did something specific for the Imms to want to keep it from you.

Tada, if you are trust worthy, you now have additional karma. And most likely you have done so with 1-2 characters.

The karma system is fair and unbiased, but if you are waiting around to magickly get karma...it will take a long time. The above method is showing the staff you can work closely with them and can be trusted with more powerful characters.

QuoteAlso, for those of you who don't think the karma system is absolutely incredible like I do, I say, "look at your RP."

This isn't really fair to say. Regardless of my own opinion on the karma system, it is extremely insulting to say that anyone who doesn't like the system needs to look at their roleplaying. I'm sure there are plenty of fine emoters and roleplayers that have beefs with the karma system. I'm sure there are plenty of bad ones who don't. Obviously, those who have the karma will be more inclined to like it, but placing a statement like this out there is exactly why the complaint of karma seen as a ranking system has validation.

Quote from: "K4rm4Ch4m3l30n"I think you can get reasonable amount of Karma is very short period of time.

Here are my steps to get Karma. If I can get karma, anyone can get Karma, because at one point I know for a fact that I was one of the most misguided n00bs playing the game:

Get Karma in 7 easy steps:

1) App a character, have it be well thought out and realistic.

2) Play the character in a reasonable, well thought out manner.

3) Send a weekly updates to your clan imms or the indy imms. In these emails explaining what you are doing, why and what your character is up to and why, how your character feels and what his or her motivations are.

Bear in mind these may or may not get read, whats important is that your character and their actions are being documneted. Biography works for this as well now. (I love bio - It rules)

4) Play the character out and eventually die.

5) Then, if you want karma, send in a special app for 1 level higher then you currently have. If you don't have Delf, don't ask for a Nilazi, 1 level higher, no more.

You'll either be approved or disapproved.

6) If are disapproved, repeat 1-4 and try again.

7) If you are approved go to step 8

8) Repeat steps 1-5 with your new 1 level higher karma char

9) When the char dies, send a mail to the mud and ask how you did and if you can keep the karma.

10) If you deserve it, the Imms will give it to you and now you have Karma. If you don't well, the Imms will politely tell you why and you will have a greater appreciation for the Karma system, because most likely you did something specific for the Imms to want to keep it from you.

Tada, if you are trust worthy, you now have additional karma. And most likely you have done so with 1-2 characters.

The karma system is fair and unbiased, but if you are waiting around to magickly get karma...it will take a long time. The above method is showing the staff you can work closely with them and can be trusted with more powerful characters.

Unless you're named Jarod...

Quote from: "Jarod550"

Quote from: "K4rm4Ch4m3l30n"I think you can get reasonable amount of Karma is very short period of time.

Here are my steps to get Karma. If I can get karma, anyone can get Karma, because at one point I know for a fact that I was one of the most misguided n00bs playing the game:

Get Karma in 7 easy steps:

1) App a character, have it be well thought out and realistic.

2) Play the character in a reasonable, well thought out manner.

3) Send a weekly updates to your clan imms or the indy imms. In these emails explaining what you are doing, why and what your character is up to and why, how your character feels and what his or her motivations are.

Bear in mind these may or may not get read, whats important is that your character and their actions are being documneted. Biography works for this as well now. (I love bio - It rules)

4) Play the character out and eventually die.

5) Then, if you want karma, send in a special app for 1 level higher then you currently have. If you don't have Delf, don't ask for a Nilazi, 1 level higher, no more.

You'll either be approved or disapproved.

6) If are disapproved, repeat 1-4 and try again.

7) If you are approved go to step 8

8) Repeat steps 1-5 with your new 1 level higher karma char

9) When the char dies, send a mail to the mud and ask how you did and if you can keep the karma.

10) If you deserve it, the Imms will give it to you and now you have Karma. If you don't well, the Imms will politely tell you why and you will have a greater appreciation for the Karma system, because most likely you did something specific for the Imms to want to keep it from you.

Tada, if you are trust worthy, you now have additional karma. And most likely you have done so with 1-2 characters.

The karma system is fair and unbiased, but if you are waiting around to magickly get karma...it will take a long time. The above method is showing the staff you can work closely with them and can be trusted with more powerful characters.

Unless you're named Jarod...

To be fair, I've read a lot of your posts, I can only imagine what your interactions with the Staff have been like. If thats any indication of your game play, I wouldn't give you Karma either.

Instead of taking on a self-defeatist attitude and trying to play the victim, why not strive for improvement?  Don't post on the GDB about how you'll never get karma, how you're constantly overlooked, etc, etc.  Work on developing and enriching your PCs' lives and interacting with the world around them.  Learn more about the world and its societies.  Prove all the people wrong who think that you can't do it.  Don't just reject the advice that experienced Armers give you, and give some of it a try.  Figure out what works and what doesn't.  There have been plenty of people who have come in and felt like you, and some of them have gone on to become some outstanding roleplayers.  If you truly love this game, aim to join the ranks of those who have transcended "noobness" and become a better roleplayer.

Just one thing to keep in mind. There _is_ always a staff member. When I started playing this game, I often played when nobody with a few off-peak players were online. Still I remember days with every NPC I met animated, every room had echoes and weird things that only staff members can do happened.
If there are 8 people and one immortal, the immortal perhaps finds 10 mins to watch you. If there are 64 people and 4 immortals, one of the immortals may find five mins to watch you.. Off peak hours are sometimes best to be watched by the immortals.
And I forgot to criticize only one thing about karma.
I would feel much better if every time I was branded by a bad note, I also got a quick MUDmail describing what I have done wrong... Say, I had got a note "He plays elves like running humans." but still don't know what I have done wrong.. Was I too much into trade with Kurac? It was because I saved a human from the gith ambushing? I was keeping too much money with me? It was because of my spice habbit? Trying to trick Allanaki militia to get more profit from some vital information I've got was risking my tribe? Or shouldn't I ever have contacted with the militia at first not to mess with roundears? That half-elf was too close to me? etc. etc..... What was the mistake? Sorrily I saw that note after long time has passed and I can say a middle-sized melon has a stronger memory then I have. I could never learn what I did wrong.

While of course it isn't perfect, I think the karma system is necessary and works well.

It's necessary to keep the more challenging and abusable roles limited to the more experienced and trustworthy players.   That makes a lot of sense to me.

As far as I can tell, it seems to work.   On the whole, the karma characters I run into seem to handle their roles well.   In my personal experience with karma, it has seemd to be very fair.  I can tell you (and some of you know) I'm not going to be the most scintillating jaw-droppingly amazing emoter.   When I first started playing, I thought that's what you needed to get karma.  I know better now, and I agree with Seeker that time is an important factor.  Not necessarily time in any given character (although I think that helps demonstrate consistency), but time enough playing the game for the staff to see what your tendencies are as a player.

If you've been playing actively for the better part of a year and haven't received any karma yet, I'd suggest requesting your account notes and possibly writing a polite email to the mud to try to get a sense of what you could do better.  But be willing to work on it.   Don't assume that you have it all figured out, because you probably don't.

Lastly, I'd just add that there are things you can work on outside of roleplaying that can't hurt.   Someone else mentioned sending in updates.   Be responsible.  Don't just flake out and disappear.   Be patient.  Be polite.  Those kinds of things, while OOC, probably have some impact on trust too.

Quote from: "Cuusardo"Instead of taking on a self-defeatist attitude and trying to play the victim, why not strive for improvement?  Don't post on the GDB about how you'll never get karma, how you're constantly overlooked, etc, etc.  Work on developing and enriching your PCs' lives and interacting with the world around them.  Learn more about the world and its societies.  Prove all the people wrong who think that you can't do it.  Don't just reject the advice that experienced Armers give you, and give some of it a try.  Figure out what works and what doesn't.  There have been plenty of people who have come in and felt like you, and some of them have gone on to become some outstanding roleplayers.  If you truly love this game, aim to join the ranks of those who have transcended "noobness" and become a better roleplayer.

They are all perfect already...

Jarod

Jarod550

I thought you promised to stop posting?  Man!

Why do you think any of the gamers here bother to post on this form, responding to issues you raise?

Because we're bored?  Because we like to think we're better than you?  

Come on, man....we're all just playing a game.  Get over your insecurity and just play the game, listen to others, open your mind and reeeee-lax.

Good luck, bro.

Quote from: "Jarod550"
They are all perfect already...

Jarod

What is?

Quote from: "Cuusardo"

Quote from: "Jarod550"
They are all perfect already...

Jarod

What is?

My characters

And I said this is the last topic I'm posting to, you guys keep it going.

Jarod

QuoteI would feel much better if every time I was branded by a bad note, I also got a quick MUDmail describing what I have done wrong...

I would like this as well. I haven't checked my notes in, well, ever actually, but it would be nice to know what I'm doing wrong and why it's not acceptable. I'm definitely in favor of constructive critisim. And the extra little MUDmail would make the bad note seem more helpful and less like a thumb of the nose.

Quote from: "Cenghiz"Just one thing to keep in mind. There _is_ always a staff member. When I started playing this game, I often played when nobody with a few off-peak players were online. Still I remember days with every NPC I met animated, every room had echoes and weird things that only staff members can do happened.

I played off peak, a leadership role in a clan, and in 3 months the only one time I saw a clan NPC animated was when I specifically woke up at 3 AM to hit peak time and have a meeting with the NPC then.

I also never saw any other NPC animated at the time.

I'm not saying there are no imms at off peak, but I doubt 5 minutes of watching once in awhile will give them a good enough impression of anyone to hand out karma. They'll most likely be watching their clan players, rather than others. Also, they lack the information about a player character that his clan imms receive. It might be hard for another immortal to understand / interprete the character well enough. This could even lead to bad notes. Say you do something that seems strange for your character, but your clan imm has all the information about why it makes sense at the time. The other imm watching for 5 minutes doesnt have that information.

Yeah, the other IMMs.  What's been said, Akaramu, is that there are IMMs and you are more likely to be watched when there are fewer people to watch.  Also, just because you had few House NPC animations come your way doesn't mean you weren't being watched...and probably only means that your clan IMM(s) weren't around during your normal play times.  That doesn't mean that others weren't.

Quote from: "Akaramu"
I'm not saying there are no imms at off peak, but I doubt 5 minutes of watching once in awhile will give them a good enough impression of anyone to hand out karma. They'll most likely be watching their clan players, rather than others. Also, they lack the information about a player character that his clan imms receive. It might be hard for another immortal to understand / interprete the character well enough. This could even lead to bad notes. Say you do something that seems strange for your character, but your clan imm has all the information about why it makes sense at the time. The other imm watching for 5 minutes doesnt have that information.

Okay, but I don't think it's possible for every single clan to have an immortal to suit every player's hours, peak or off-peak.

Karma is perfect. Suck it up.



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This is where we beg Jarod to stay and post.... I think..

Quote from: "Akaramu"I'm not saying there are no imms at off peak, but I doubt 5 minutes of watching once in awhile will give them a good enough impression of anyone to hand out karma. They'll most likely be watching their clan players, rather than others. Also, they lack the information about a player character that his clan imms receive. It might be hard for another immortal to understand / interprete the character well enough. This could even lead to bad notes. Say you do something that seems strange for your character, but your clan imm has all the information about why it makes sense at the time. The other imm watching for 5 minutes doesnt have that information.

I think it's unfair to make statements like this, because honestly we as players have no idea who is watching us at any time or what they may or may not know. Just because npc animations don't happen frequently doesn't mean we aren't being watched. And I can only assume that staff would know to consult with the immortals of a clan before making judgements about the actions of a PC in that clan. As flurry said, it's unreasonable to expect that each clan staff will be able to monitor players at all times.

Even if you are not being watched you can get Karma. Email the mud with a previously well documented character and the staff will make a point to review your request. I really don't understand where this "karma is unfair" attitude comes from. If you don't get the Karma, the staff will most definitely tell you why.

Quote from: "Akaramu"I played off peak, a leadership role in a clan, and in 3 months the only one time I saw a clan NPC animated was when I specifically woke up at 3 AM to hit peak time and have a meeting with the NPC then.

I also never saw any other NPC animated at the time.

I think number of NPCs animated doesn't say anything about being or not being watched. Perhaps there was IMM watching, but didn't feel any need to animate NPC?

Quote from: "Jarod550"

Quote from: "Cuusardo"

Quote from: "Jarod550"
They are all perfect already...

Jarod

What is?

My characters

And I said this is the last topic I'm posting to, you guys keep it going.

Jarod

I am new to the game, but I highly doubt that anyone's roleplaying is perfect. If this isn't what you meant, Im sorry.

Well, if after 3 months I am told I did not do something that in fact I did almost every day, I strongly have to assume I was not watched often. I countered the argument with some logs, and then I was no longer told that I had failed to do this thing.

I never said that lack of NPC animations means I'm not being watched. Never ever. I was only replying to Cenghiz' argument about NPC animations.

Quote from: "Akaramu"Well, if after 3 months I am told I did not do something that in fact I did almost every day, I strongly have to assume I was not watched often. I countered the argument with some logs, and then I was no longer told that I had failed to do this thing.

I don't think anecdotes like this form a basis to criticize the system. Again, we can't expect clan staff to watch their players at times they can't be online. Off peak players can, as you demonstrated, email in logs to show what they've been up to, and then possibly receive karma, if it's deserved.

Akaramu, just because your clan IMM told you that you didn't do something just means that your clan IMMs didn't see you...and weren't told that you did by other IMMs that were watching you.  Possibly those other IMMs never paid attention to your doing that thing because they didn't think it was important?

How about we get back on subject instead of picking my post apart? It doesnt matter, but I feel I had reason to assume I was watched quite little considering the role I played, and felt a bit left alone, and I dont consider it necessary to explain why. It was only an example of why the karma system is so much biased towards the problem of time. And we already agreed that it is much better than not having karma at all.

Of course we cant expect imms to watch at times they are not online. But this system just happens to favor the players who have long-lived PCs in the right clan with the right imm who is active when they are.

Quote from: "Akaramu"But this system just happens to favor the players who have long-lived PCs in the right clan with the right imm who is active when they are.

I am not picking you apart, but this is not my experience.  In every single instance that I got karma except for one, I received it when I was not in a clan.  I am not saying that being in a clan doesn't hurt, but it certainly is not required.  I don't want people to come away thinking that if they play independent characters that they are screwed.  Perhaps karma accumilates slow, but it certainly comes.

Now, being long lived does help, but this is by design.  If every time you take over your PCs life and he goes from being a VNPC to a PC, he dies within a few days, that is probably a sign that you are playing very risky characters, or are not considering the risks your character takes realistically.

The other issue with playing short lived characters is that you can not show consistency.  A large part of role playing is having your character play consistently.  That isn't to say that you can't change over time due to the events that surround your character.  Changing over time just shows growth and change, not a lack of consistency.  You just need to show that if you say sit down to play a 'rinther, you can achieve that sort of personality without getting bored and deciding that you 'rinth rat wants to run out into the desert and go scrab hunting.

That whole... "This will get you karmas or that will.." is, in my opinion, super bogus. If you want karmas.. play a long lived, compelling character and get something done. Actually, play several of that sort.

I'm a big fan. I especially like the plural.

I also wanted to add that I'm satisfied with nearly every karma-based character I see and that's a big sign to me that the system is running smoothly. Kudos to the the suspicions of the staff. Less is heh.. apparently more. If you feel you've really, honest to God tried every concievable character concept available to you, maybe special app?

I've been playing for a year and a half, have VERY little karma, one point, and am still learning.  I also don't post jack shit on the boards, unless I'm clanned, or just messing around.  I don't really care about recieving karma points, though they'd be good to have... I'm perfectly content in playing what limited options I already have.  It gives me a chance to learn more about the game, and strengthen my RP skills for when I do have the karma to play the more difficult choices.

I have karma and I've threatened to leave twice, even wrote a nasty email to all of the staff members on a whim, I'd say that the system isn't flawless, but I have to go with the staff's opinion.

My longest living char was around 8 days I believe, that's part of my problem of not attaining karma, the other part was my witty and hasty remarks, I've learned that it benefits to take things slow.

I do seem to have a problem with special apps, but that's a whole different thread.

To sum all that up, karma system is good, even though I've been a bad boy every now and then, the staff are very forgiving and IMHO? Awesome.

Thanks.

Quote from: "Akaramu"Well, if after 3 months I am told I did not do something that in fact I did almost every day, I strongly have to assume I was not watched often. I countered the argument with some logs, and then I was no longer told that I had failed to do this thing.

I never said that lack of NPC animations means I'm not being watched. Never ever. I was only replying to Cenghiz' argument about NPC animations.

First up, you are sighting very specific things, which makes me think that you have a central, personal grievance. The Staff commented me on spamming "this" when I always emote it except for maybe this one day when they were watching me. It's unfair...

But you are right, most likely the staff is not watching you all the time. Most likely they are not watching you 95% of the time. We have something along the lines of 40-60 players at peak times and maybe 5-10 Imms on at those times.

On off peak, I can only imagine that we have less than 20 players on and maybe 4 or less Imms on.  Yes there is a good chance that you may not be getting watched too much.

Also think about the kind of life your PC is leading and how you are role playing it out.  Are you playing an interesting PC? Are you a dynamic part of something? When you are alone, do you make the most of Solo emoting?

The things that will Garner you Karma, are the things that will make other players want to be around your PC.  There are plenty of off peak players that have a good deal of Karma.

It is all about Time, Trust and Good RP not the hours that you play on.

Quote from: "Rindan"Now, being long lived does help, but this is by design.  If every time you take over your PCs life and he goes from being a VNPC to a PC, he dies within a few days, that is probably a sign that you are playing very risky characters, or are not considering the risks your character takes realistically.

The other issue with playing short lived characters is that you can not show consistency.  A large part of role playing is having your character play consistently.  You just need to show that if you say sit down and...achieve a personality without getting bored and deciding to run out into the desert and go scrab hunting.

This is a really great point.  As has been mentioned many times, much of earning karma has to do with a consistent and realistic approach to playing your character over time.  Some people believe that this means you have to sit in a tavern and avoid any of what they consider the "fun stuff" in order to have a long life, and that's just not true.

Syntax experience is quickly learned (just like buttons on a video game) and will allow you to survive a fair amount of encounters, but this really blossoms when you add maturity and a realistic approach to the character's daily activities, choices and motivations.

Part of being consistent is avoiding the could vs. should temptation.

For example, we could:

:arrow: Be attacked to near death, sleep for 10 mins and act fine.
:arrow: Spar for 30 minutes straight.
:arrow: Hunt every IC day regardess of fatigue, injury or overhunting.
:arrow: Sneak away when someone is talking to you.
:arrow: Rationalize our PC knowing something that a past PC learned.
:arrow: Act differently around PC's than we do around NPC's.
:arrow: PK someone when we know they are LD and comprimised.

But for most cases we shouldn't.

We shouldn't because our goal in playing should be to have fun while maintaining the integrity of the gameworld and staying true to the spirit of Armageddon as we add our line, paragraph, chapter or volume to the every growing story of Zalanthas.

Doing the things listed above can cheapen not only your story, but the  experience of others.  Consider the choices you make with your next character and see if you are truly adding and bettering the story by playing a consistent and realistic character.  If you are, chances are that you will see karma before too long.

-LoD

Still, I'm suprised eleven people voted negatively. While the person who said "majority of the playerbase dislikes the karma system" (loosely quoted) mostly ment himself and himself only. Eleven people is still quiet a number.

Well, the poll itself is worded rather poorly.  I mean, the options aren't mutually exclusive.  A system can be both good and flawed.  People could be satisfied with it even though a more effecient system may be possible.  It can be open to being administered in a biased manner but be fairly administered anyway.

If the bottom option was "The karma system is completely broken and needs to be replaced ASAP" then you'd probably have gotten far fewer votes.

sarahjc, there is no need to lecture me about how karma is earned. I have no personal grievance. And I know how karma is distributed. I have karma. I'm not whining or complaining. I'm simply pointing out a possible flaw, and I gave an example for this, which was maybe a bad idea because it seems it was easily misunderstood.

I believe the system is biased towards time and timezone effects, coupled with some luck of manageing to stay alive long enough to be able to show consistent play. I also believe it is possible to disagree with me without telling me things that are clear to everyone, and that have not been questioned in the discussion.

Any chance of getting this thread locked?

Like most threads with more than 4 or 5 pages, the pool of useful discussion points seem to have been emptied.

Hmm few thoughts...

Imm-pets getting free karma.  Don't believe it happens... Probably makes getting karma harder if you know an IMM.

Clanned characters getting more karma... Only had one who lasted long (1 game year) and that was before I knew about updates.   Rest all got killed by their bosses before they could devlop much.

Staff grudges... Unlikely

PC grudges.. Very possible.. I believe there are groups of players who are friends who subtly back each other's play.  I also think that longer lived indies get set up.. One of mine was doing very nicely  and people I'd known a while started to offer me suicide missions....

Griefers...  Yeah.. There are people who come up with rp excuses to ruin other people's fun.. Or get into a position of power just to step on people (Kypling's little tin gods).   This is different then the templar who hauls you in slaps you around demands information... And then either fines you or rewards you....  Unless they are acting for an ooc friend you can usually beg or bribe your way out of minor trouble.


Me  13 characters in about a year and a half... 4 or so which lasted less less then a rl week... Longest lived... Killed by boss.. Most fun.. Killed by sorcerer..  

Cheesiest death?  Character killed by the same character as the previous.. In the same room using the same slave to kill me...

I think time plays a part too.  Anthony Hopkins could join up but even if he focused his formidable acting talent on making the most believable and consistant PC ever, I bet he couldn't get 7 karma by this time next year.   :D  

It took me about a year to get my first point of karma.  Over the nearly 5 years I've been playing I've had over 100 characters, and a few more Karma points.  Not enough to play the half-giant sorcerer I've always wanted, but I suppose that idea would go better in an odd urges thread.  



Angela Christine

Quote from: "Akaramu"
I also believe it is possible to disagree with me without telling me things that are clear to everyone, and that have not been questioned in the discussion.

I wasn't trying to "pick on you" per say or even directing most of my post at you except for the first paragraph.  I was just stating my opinion, and using your example, which I have already done, so there is no need to rehash it.

What may be clear to you or I is not necessarily clear to everyone and this is a discussion board. If you make a post, people are then free to make and post their own opinions on it. You brought up an issue of timing when it comes to account comments, as you stated that you had received on that was due to bad timing and had to go back to the staff with logs and I was addressing that.


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Most people who live in an alternate time zone with off-peak play hours do have a bit of difficulty with getting animations and getting involved in plots, but that is just the difficulty of off peak time. When the staff calls for new members, I would rather that they choose people who they think will be good staff as opposed to someone who might not be so great as a staffer, but can be around for off peak hours just so that they can be more diligent with passing out off peak Karma.

As I said before, I really think it's all about Time, Trust and Good RP not the hours that you play on.  If you are consistent with these things, you will get the Karma you deserve regardless of your play times.

Quote from: "sarahjc"As I said before, I really think it's all about Time, Trust and Good RP not the hours that you play on.  If you are consistent with these things, you will get the Karma you deserve regardless of your play times.

I'd agree with the above. I play off-peak but I've managed to get 8 karma in about 4.5 years despite getting a couple of bad account notes in the beginning. I don't consider myself a stellar RPer - the depth of some of the characters I see other people play around the place really impresses me and make me envious sometimes. Its all about being consistently true to the spirit of the game. If you can do that you will without a doubt get the karma you want. If you play off-peak I'd strongly encourage you to play in clans at least some of the time if you want to get karma. Playing off-peak is not a death-knell for getting leadership roles either except for playing a templar maybe and they're a great way of demonstrating that you're a responsible player. Live for a while, play the character consistently, involve others around you (whether you're a leader or not), keep the Imms updated and prove to them that they can trust you. It won't happen overnight but consistently doing it over time will absolutely not go unnoticed.