Is it possible, to play a totally independant who doesn't rely on a house for training, money, food or water, and still become worth anything?
Houses tend to be too silly and strict, yet I don't know of any immortals who monitor "non house" folks.
I think it would be great to start up a character and bow to no house and have him train up and become a good whatever class. Unfortunately it seems like all the interaction and attention from staff is situated around houses only. Is there hope for an independant who wouldn't mind doing jobs for houses, but not having to follow thier rules or join said house?
Jarod
Depends on you're idea of independence I suppose. I've made a few independent characters and they've managed. However, understand that because of how the PC population is spread out almost anyone in the city (esp. if they play a law abiding citizen) will directly or indirectly have to rely on the houses for money and plots. After all, that is why we have PC nobles: to spread the money and keep characters occupied.
I think there are now Imms who work with non-clanned characters.
Of course, of course, of course. These are pretty much the only types of characters I play. Try a ranger. But expect to die quiet a few times in the process.
Depends on if you want coded or real power.
independents die. often. which is why, ICly, house positions are prized.
But it is possible. Just takes some skill and a lot of luck to do it without serious twinking.
Read this document:
http://www.armageddon.org/rp/subguilds/hunter.html
Agent_137 hit it right on. Independants die. It's very possible to have a successful indy, it just takes luck, patience, and skill.
I've found it's easier to make a heap of coins as an indy, but the coins go to waste because without friends to call on, you die. Make friends. Join a House. Help each other stay alive.
Want the freedom to roam while still having buddies? Try a delf. Or Kurac.
-WP
Quote from: "WarriorPoet"Agent_137 hit it right on. Independants die. It's very possible to have a successful indy, it just takes luck, patience, and skill.
I've found it's easier to make a heap of coins as an indy, but the coins go to waste because without friends to call on, you die. Make friends. Join a House. Help each other stay alive.
Want the freedom to roam while still having buddies? Try a delf. Or Kurac.
-WP
I dunno, this is just my feelings on the situation that is rp here in arm.
on one hand, it's great, on a player to player level, I don't think I've ever seen anything ooc -said- by character yet. The people are deep and make the world lively.
The part that gets silly for me, and I think I stumble up on the most is the stupid vnpcs, I play to play and have fun, I love rping with -pcs-, but the nonsense of roleplaying while you kick a training dummy with nobody around is silly.
Do I understand wrong or what? We rp here, because we want to make the game real to other players, why the hell would I rp doing things on my own, when there is nobody to watch?
I'm not going to give out ic information, but in a past character I was told that I "hunted too much" by a staff member. That right there sorta ticked me off because if there is nobody I can find to interact with, there isn't an imm making a npc talk to me or something. What the heck is wrong with my character running out the gate and hunting?
I dislike how the people who do nothing but make their way from their estate, to the bar, sit there for hours posing and emoting like crazy, are looked upon better then a guy just playing for fun, but roleplaying whenever he encounters another person...
It's almost like they want the world to be dull. Or the game to be like a MUSH where EVERYTHING is emotes. There is a reason I can walk my happy little rear out the gate, pull my weapon of choice and bash said creatures head in or be eaten. It's my choice.
Yet it seems with every combat character that I make, they think just because I like to do things that are enjoyable, I'm powergaming, well I'll tell you what, for a powergamer I sure suck if that were the case, cause I don't think I've ever even branched a skill. But yet I'm accused.
<don't know where this rant came from> Just figured I would get this off my chest.
I will sit here, playing the same character types and same starting races forever if the only way to gain the "trust" of the staff to play the others, is to sit on your ass in the city tavern, emoting and posing for 5 hours then leaving...
Putting this into some perspective. You ask if an independent can make a difference in the game. The answer is a definitive yes. It is also very diffucult. That being said, it is in many ways more importaint to enjoy the role. In fact I would say if you don't enjoy it, you can't achive the first goal.
QuoteDo I understand wrong or what? We rp here, because we want to make the game real to other players, why the hell would I rp doing things on my own, when there is nobody to watch?
There often is someone watching, much more than you may think. Also roleplaying for yourself makes it more real for the most importiant character of all, yourself. No I'm an not a grand solo RP'er. At times I find it tedious, others times I don't. So don't think you need to go whole hog to get your point across, sometimes a little goes a long way.
QuoteI'm not going to give out ic information, but in a past character I was told that I "hunted too much" by a staff member. That right there sorta ticked me off because if there is nobody I can find to interact with, there isn't an imm making a npc talk to me or something. What the heck is wrong with my character running out the gate and hunting?
Think of it this way. It's not the non solo RPing so much I suspect, but rather acting in a way inconsistaint with the character. Think of the person as a living, breathing person, not a character. How often would he hunt? Not how often do you as a player want to hunt. At times it can be hard holding back on something that you as a player want to do, such as thinking you'd like to see if you could kick a halflings ass, yet your character would never think of trying. None of this has anything to do with solo RP persay.
QuoteI dislike how the people who do nothing but make their way from their estate, to the bar, sit there for hours posing and emoting like crazy, are looked upon better then a guy just playing for fun, but roleplaying whenever he encounters another person...
It's almost like they want the world to be dull. Or the game to be like a MUSH where EVERYTHING is emotes. There is a reason I can walk my happy little rear out the gate, pull my weapon of choice and bash said creatures head in or be eaten. It's my choice.
It is your choice, but let me ask you this. Based on the topic of the thread, you seem to feel you are missing out on something. It may be that what you are really missing out on, is that very thing you are trying so hard to avoid. Make the development of your character's life and goals your prime purpose. Don't once think about his skills, of if you are solo RP or emoting too much or too little. Put yourself into his eyes and drive his life. If you find there is not enough interaction or challange, make him a nosey little shit, get in everyone's business. Trust me, you start doing these things, you'll enjoy the character. You enjoy the character then making a difference is much more possible.
There is plenty to do, aside from hunting down everything in sight. I've played alot, and I mean alot of hunter characters, and I've never once been called down by an Immortal. If you're moving about, hunting and skinning and roleplaying the situations -realistically-, there is no reason you should be killing so many NPC's that you get called down for it. You just won't have the time.
I don't think anyone expects you to solo RP constantly, or to sit in the tavern -at all-. However, there is more to this game than killing and running amok.
He's a hunter? That's fine. Hunt it up, but do it realistically. Emote stalking your prey. Emote skinning it. Emote cooking. Talk with your kank. Have you hunted this area alot? You don't want to overhunt, that's for sure. Why don't you ride aways and look for new prey? Is the shell from that animal not bringing enough in your home city? Load up your kank and ride somewhere else. Find a market for your materials. Not familiar with the other lands? Find a partner who is. Is this partner's company expensive? Mine some obsidian to make up the cost. Obsidian hard to come by? Maybe Jal...
Trust me, man. If all you can think of to do is hunting scrab for five hours straight, you're missing the best parts of Armageddon, which are the possibilities generated by roleplay.
Regardless, this isn't a mud about hunting constantly, bashing monsters, or improving your l33t skills. This game isn't for everyone, by any means. Character development. You build that character, and everything else falls into place.
Luck with it.
-WP
I don't know, I guess I'm just ticked off cause I try hard as hell to play my characters as if I am them, I sleep, I eat, I drink, I do stuff for fun, I emote almost everything, such as kneeling down before skinning, tossing sids to another person for something ect ect.
Then I look at a few of the roleplaying logs (no offence if any of you are one of the ones I'm going to mention) I see simple crap like a water elementalist who finds a bleeding gortok, kneels near it, talks a few sentences, emotes a few spells, then cures it and heads on his way. And
-that- is considered "great" roleplaying (which I personally have no issue with) However I have been involved in hour long rp events with various people and done things far better then healing a stupid dog and the comments I get are "You hunt too much".
Even -if- I thought I didn't rp out all my huntings (which I did) and even
-if- they were right that I do it too much, (which they aren't). It's shitty to have a glass is half full approach to everything I do. I have never once heard a good comment from the staff and trust me, I've spoken with them. They aren't happy with anything I do it seems. I feel that they concentrate on what they perceive to be bad rp or actions more then they concentrate on the good. Like that old saying, 50 thataboys can be wiped away with one "oh shit", which is wrong and silly.
Honestly if it wasn't for the fact that they deny me gaining of karma for the way they obviously dislike my rp, I wouldn't as a person give a rats ass, but since I can never do anything but the most base roles because they slap me down at every occurance, that's why I care. I could sit here and lie to you telling you how their impression of me means so much to me and it hurts my feelings to be looked down upon, but it would be a bold face lie, it bothers me because it affects what I can do and say in a game I like, if karma wasn't required I wouldn't care one bit.
Jarod
Most people will with karma will tell you that getting their first point took about a RL year of playing.
Quote from: "Marauder Moe"Most people will with karma will tell you that getting their first point took about a RL year of playing.
Heh, that just irritates me more then, cause I've been playing more then a year, I just didn't join the forums right away...
I don't even know why I bother trying...
Jarod
Trust me. Chat with a Helper. Honest.
Seeker
Quote from: "Seeker"Trust me. Chat with a Helper. Honest.
Seeker
Have done that many a times. -think- I even wandered into one of the helpers characters one time in game. From every one I talk to, I'm not doing anything wrong so long as I us emotes to describe actions, think so that my reasoning is known and don't do anything silly like slap a mekillot.
Just forget it, close this stupid post down already it doesn't matter, I'll just be a cookie cutter guild or race forever, screw it.
Jarod
If I were you I'd be looking at those examples of people "curing stupid dogs" as inspiration and instances of great roleplay. If it were totally in character for a water elementalist to heal an injured gortok, then by all means they
were roleplaying well and should be commended.
Personally, I find it hard to believe that you as a person or character would leave the city every day and burn a fire of do0m and destruction through hordes of mobs. That, to me, seems slightly hack 'n' slash. I will not judge as a player for I do not know you,
but when you say things like:
Quote from: "Jarod550"However I have been involved in hour long rp events with various people and done things far better then healing a stupid dog and the comments I get are "You hunt too much".
I find this statement, my friend, to be highly ignorant. You are no one to judge if your roleplay is better than another's. Besides, I doubt a staff member would say "you hunt too much" unless they
really had a damn good reason to think so.
Quote from: "Jarod550"What the heck is wrong with my character running out the gate and hunting?
Nothing is wrong with this. As long as it fits the concept of your pc and you are roleplaying in a realistic fashion. ie Not letting a tembo drop you to 10 health, fleeing, sleeping off the damage, then waking to return and repeat the process until you wittle its hp down. Or killing every critter within a 20 room radius of your home city.
Quote from: "Jarod550"There is a reason I can walk my happy little rear out the gate, pull my weapon of choice and bash said creatures head in or be eaten. It's my choice.
It is your choice, this is correct. That does not mean it was a smart or correct choice to make. Think about it.
Most of us do not play this mud to go around and kill mobs. We're here for pvp interaction just as you yourself say you are here for. If you truly mean this, then don't leave the gates to "kill shit" just because you are bored or tired of seeing tavern sitters show off their uber emote skillz.
Consider the opinions of players and staff "tough love". :wink:
Quote from: "Jakahri"If I were you I'd be looking at those examples of people "curing stupid dogs" as inspiration and instances of great roleplay. If it were totally in character for a water elementalist to heal an injured gortok, then by all means they were roleplaying well and should be commended.
Personally, I find it hard to believe that you as a person or character would leave the city every day and burn a fire of do0m and destruction through hordes of mobs. That, to me, seems slightly hack 'n' slash. I will not judge as a player for I do not know you, but when you say things like:
Quote from: "Jarod550"However I have been involved in hour long rp events with various people and done things far better then healing a stupid dog and the comments I get are "You hunt too much".
I find this statement, my friend, to be highly ignorant. You are no one to judge if your roleplay is better than another's. Besides, I doubt a staff member would say "you hunt too much" unless they really had a damn good reason to think so.
Quote from: "Jarod550"What the heck is wrong with my character running out the gate and hunting?
Nothing is wrong with this. As long as it fits the concept of your pc and you are roleplaying in a realistic fashion. ie Not letting a tembo drop you to 10 health, fleeing, sleeping off the damage, then waking to return and repeat the process until you wittle its hp down. Or killing every critter within a 20 room radius of your home city.
Quote from: "Jarod550"There is a reason I can walk my happy little rear out the gate, pull my weapon of choice and bash said creatures head in or be eaten. It's my choice.
It is your choice, this is correct. That does not mean it was a smart or correct choice to make. Think about it.
Most of us do not play this mud to go around and kill mobs. We're here for pvp interaction just as you yourself say you are here for. If you truly mean this, then don't leave the gates to "kill shit" just because you are bored or tired of seeing tavern sitters show off their uber emote skillz.
Consider the opinions of players and staff "tough love". :wink:
Well I guess that's just why I'll never fit in, I play games for fun, I -make- the character bend or rationalize to -my- concept of fun, because I think it would be even more boring than sitting in the tavern watching fancy emoters, to play a character I don't like. My fellow killing two low level creatures in a day is not unrealistic, and my -skills- of rp should be judged on how I interact with other people, not on whether I wore my green or purple hooded cloak today.
This is stupid and it just pisses me off the more I talk about it, cause I just finished reading a post from someone else who said they have been playing a character they hate for however long and just hate it. Then retire em! Who clubbed you people upside the head and said that you have to endure displeasure for the sake of playing a game?
You're here to have fun, I'm here to have fun. You -character- is a fake thing that you made up and help to make appear living with a bunch of programming code. To talk about -him- like it's another person bordered on nuts.
Like people who talk about themselves in the third person. I just would like to know when having fun, was over-ruled by being uber realistic to the point of boredom to be considered a -good player-.
And about the roleplaying comment up there, I'm not saying I'm better then that fellow who cured the stupid dog. I said that I think it was good roleplay, not every thing you do and every action you make in a fictional world has to look and read like a grand opera or movie. My point was that I feel I was involved in a lot more complex and challenging situations, that I reacted to well and realisticly, and find it ironic that someone (albeit handled well) can rp healing a dog which takes 5 minutes and be memorialized for it on the web site..
I know some of what I say comes off as cocky, and really it probably is, cause I'm a cocky individual. But I know I can't be so "unrealistic" as the staff likes to make me feel, when things like curing a stupid dog, is considered very realistic...
I don't give a damn who likes me or dislikes me as a player, person or any combination of the two, what pisses me off is pretty much them telling me "you're not good enough" when I know damned well I am.
Jarod
Quote from: "Jarod550"Just forget it, close this stupid post down already it doesn't matter, I'll just be a cookie cutter guild or race forever, screw it.
Just because you don't have karma options doesn't mean that you're limited to 'cookie cutter' roles. It's all in the character, not race/guild of the character.
Bitching like this isn't gonna help you. If you really feel that you deserve some karma, first thing you may wish to do is turn on 'review' so that the IMMs know that you want them to watch you.
Continuing along to another thing you may wish to know, there ARE IMMs in charge of handling the unclanned. You should get in touch with them (they should be listed in the most recent weekly update) and keep them up to date on your character's goals/actions so that they can see how you're doing.
Quote from: "spawnloser"Quote from: "Jarod550"Just forget it, close this stupid post down already it doesn't matter, I'll just be a cookie cutter guild or race forever, screw it.
Just because you don't have karma options doesn't mean that you're limited to 'cookie cutter' roles. It's all in the character, not race/guild of the character.
Bitching like this isn't gonna help you. If you really feel that you deserve some karma, first thing you may wish to do is turn on 'review' so that the IMMs know that you want them to watch you.
Continuing along to another thing you may wish to know, there ARE IMMs in charge of handling the unclanned. You should get in touch with them (they should be listed in the most recent weekly update) and keep them up to date on your character's goals/actions so that they can see how you're doing.
Again, roleplay and emotes and imagination is all great and fun, but we would all be playing dungeons and dragons Dark Sun games with 20-sided dice and pen and paper if we didn't care about the venue and the options available to us.
Everyone is here for the game, the actually computer coded game, if you took away the coded aspects and made this purely a mush I'm sure half of you would drop off and go play another game.
Why? Because there is no computer generated and regulated code to judge who "wins" each arguement or challenge or skill.
To say that I can take a say -merchant- and make him into a captain of the guard for a noble house let's say if I try and play him hard enough is correct, you can do anything as anybody, but there are times when you want the burden of imagination and creativity off of your ability to emote things and into the game.
I could run around and mentally think I'm a mindbender, contact everyone and rp I'm a mindbender till I'm blue in the face, hell maybe even someone will believe me, but then when it all comes down to it, you don't have the hard coded skills and that IS a part of the game, that IS a reason why people are warriors instead of rangers, rangers instead of warriors for the pros and cons that come along with this computer generated set of skills you receive.
So it is -greatly- about the character correct, but it is NOT only about the character, guild and race play a damned part, so don't give me the little figurative pat on the head and dismiss me with comments like "It's all in the character, not race/guild of the character."
Because that's a half-truth.
Jarod
Well, I don't know how you play InGame, but if your attitude here is any gauge, I wouldn't trust you with karma, myself.
Instead of pining for karma and whining about unfair treatment, why not use the karma you have in a realistic way, and show the Immortals why you deserve to play a TRUSTED role? That's the point of Karma. To show that you're capable of playing a potentially VERY POWERFUL role without running hog wild and 'hunting' the game clean on a whim.
Buck up, my friend. Play your non-karma roles as best you can, according to the documentation. That is how you get karma, not by pitching a fit on the GDB. The Karma system is a good one. You'll learn to love it.
I'll bow out of this thread here, and hope you find your niche. You have enthusiasm, and that's in your favor. Luck with it. There is some solid advice in this thread. You'd do well to think about it.
-WP
Quote from: "Jarod550"This is stupid and it just pisses me off the more I talk about it, cause I just finished reading a post from someone else who said they have been playing a character they hate for however long and just hate it. Then retire em! Who clubbed you people upside the head and said that you have to endure displeasure for the sake of playing a game?
You're here to have fun, I'm here to have fun. You -character- is a fake thing that you made up and help to make appear living with a bunch of programming code. To talk about -him- like it's another person bordered on nuts.
Like people who talk about themselves in the third person. I just would like to know when having fun, was over-ruled by being uber realistic to the point of boredom to be considered a -good player-.
In some ways you make a good point here. However there is a method to the madness here. For one thing, what you are describing as fun is not so much for me. I tire quickly of sparring, and of critter killing. Once you burn through the novelty of it, tedium sets in. That is why I tire of most muds and mmorgs in general fairly quickly. If all I was interested in was the kill, I'd play the nice graphicals muds out there, and I do when I am in the mood for them.
The thing is, that is not why I play here. You commented that people acting like thier character is a real person is "nuts", however that is what I work on getting my character to be. When that person feels real to me, that is when the game is the most rewarding to me. In the long run we play this game to be part of an interactive, dynamic story. When we read a book, that book becomes a great read when the story entrances you, and the characters feel real. You could state that a book is nothing more than typeset words on paper, but you know there are those times when a book totally sucks you in. At least I hope you do.
If you read a book that was filled with characters doing nothing but moving from one hunt to the other, you would tire of it and put it down quickly. We want to see a character who is interesting to watch and interact with. Each of us have varing skill levels, but as with everything in life, we get better with practice. Why should this be any less true with this place? I will never admit to being a great roleplayer, but I will say I am better at it than when I started two years ago.
To answer your point, as it looks like I'm starting to ramble, there have been times I have been quite bored with my character. Mostly I would stick with and work the concept, one because I enjoy the challange. Yes you can be bored and still enjoy playing. Two, I know that it can turn around and be something totally awsome in time. This has happened to me a number of times, having a kick assed time after a lull in playing. Those times make it all worth it, plus some. When I am at an impass, I'll take a break from things play some brainless H&S, ask an IMM for advice, or just go watch TV. There is nothing wrong with that.
One difference between this game and others such as WoW and Eve and the like. Here the story and the characters can move you to tears, make you laugh outloud, or drive you into a fury wanting choke the living shit out of another character. That can only be done by paying attention to the story, and the characters involved first. You can't always be the lead in the story, but you can contribute to it.
You know, as a total newb I must say ... that there 'is' novelty in skill improvement. And it 'does' feel a bit intimidating, knowing that no matter how interesting and innovative your character concept is, no matter in how many interesting plotlines your character is involved in, your character can be killed instantly or near instantly by some ... 30 day warrior/strong animal, unless ... you spend a considerable amount of time raising skills to assure reasonable level of independance and potency.
So the whole philosophy of "think of roleplay, not of skills" is faulty, because a 'great' portion of roleplay in armageddon DOES revolve around skills, and saying it's not so is simply gullible. It might not involve skills in some plotlines (often merchant related), but in most cases ... it does. And while veteran players feel more secured while their characters are still untrained, newer ones dont.
I personally can still understand the desire to twink and raise the skills as fast as possible, and I hope ... that most do not do that to become 'uber' most powerful characters in the game. But it's simply a drive to become self sufficient as fast as possible, to be able to participate in as many roleplay plots as possible. Instead of pulling out, or being ignored because well ... their character is useless.
Best thing to do in cases likes that, is support the twinks untill they branch their skills, learn their ropes, get their cockiness, start realizing how empty the powergaming in itself is and die off from a templar or on some dangerous mission that they were eager to take in order to get involved in a roleplaying plot.
There is a measure of risk in new players getting characters who are very powerful in the ways of combat. There, I've said it.
A new player, who still doesn't understand how the game work, can cause a lot of trouble in the game. It's enough that we all have to suffer the twink-stealers every now and then - can you imagine how it would be like if you'd get sapped, backstabbed or right-out murdered instead?
Making a new character in the 'rinth could be impossible because there's no crime code to protect you from the mass pk. Making a gemmer in Allanak could also be very dangerous, as would any aide or merchant who doesn't have a bodyguard.
Sure, it would create plotlines for the Militia, but if all you get after you hunt that murderer down is the same character being generated again, things begin to suck for everyone.
Having a long-lived or powerful character has nothing to do with coded strength. A powerful character is the one that can ask the templar to kill you as a favor and get it granted. When you start giving trouble to a powerful character in the middle of a tavern, you'll often see at least a couple of PCs stand up to their defense. And when you attack a powerful character and they slip away, you know you're a dead man walking at that point.
It's perfectly possible to have moderate wealth, no combat skills and no bodyguards/clan members and still be quite powerful.
You need no skills to become self-sufficient. You can perform in a tavern, or beg, or run minor errands to easily get yourself some money for cheap water or flour. You can get friendly with a Vivaduan, or you can get a tidbit of information and sell it for 50 'sids to four different people. You can do smuggling, or mine obsidian/forage salt, or take common things from Tuluk and sell them for high profit in Allanak and vice versa. You can even just hop along with someone else doing a caravan and guard them for a couple of hundreds.
The bottom line, for me, is this - coded strength is simply not needed in order to have true strength, and if every combat-oriented PC had very high combat capabilities then the game would be filled with senseless PK and would suffer greatly.
We are roleplay intensive.
Quote from: "Jarod550"To say that I can take a say -merchant- and make him into a captain of the guard for a noble house let's say if I try and play him hard enough is correct, you can do anything as anybody, but there are times when you want the burden of imagination and creativity off of your ability to emote things and into the game.
What you're doing here? You're twisting my words. You're making it seem like what I said was that you could playing anything you wanted, regardless of whether you had karma. I said that you have plenty of options that are not the 'cookie cutter' roles you were bitching about being restricted to.
You feel entitled, it seems. You seem to think, at least in my perception, that this roleplaying game has little to do with the what you make of your characters coded abilities and it's all about those abilities. I would be LESS likely, were I staff, to give you karma after this little hissy fit of yours. Karma-restricted race/guild options are restricted because things are NOT balanced in this game and these race/guild options are on the heavy side of the scale. They are not as easy to play realistically. If the staff trusts you, they'll give you karma. It's that simple. If you don't like it, well, tough. That's how it is.
Now, if you don't understand, I'm tired of trying to help you. Take this for the advice it is intended to be and you'll be a better player for it. Disregard it if you'd like, though.
Quote from: "Jarod550"Is it possible, to play a totally independant who doesn't rely on a house for training, money, food or water, and still become worth anything?
Houses tend to be too silly and strict, yet I don't know of any immortals who monitor "non house" folks.
I think it would be great to start up a character and bow to no house and have him train up and become a good whatever class. Unfortunately it seems like all the interaction and attention from staff is situated around houses only. Is there hope for an independant who wouldn't mind doing jobs for houses, but not having to follow thier rules or join said house?
To go right back to the initial question.
Yes, it is very possible. It is also far more difficult to do but the rewards tend to be even greater.
As per imm interaction I'm not certain what you are seeking here. There are immortals who watch independents.
Now, going on to the point of what is considered good roleplaying and what is considered twinking and / or powergaming. This comes down to playing in a realistic and probable manner consistent with the game environment. When you ignore the game environment to pursue an action because the code allows it - then that is twinking. EG, Twinky finds an npc or linkdead pc standing on top of a cliff so Twinky runs in and subdues. Twinky fails subdue. So Twinky subdues again. Twinky fails, Twinky repeat for as long as it takes to finally subdue the other. Then Twinky tosses the other down the cliff. Twinky goes down the cliff and kills the now unconscious other. That is twinking.
Powergaming example - The weather out is a massive storm the weather message talks about gale-like forces of winds. Powerranger then goes out hunting for no pressing need (Powerranger is fully fed and watered) other than to go hunting. In this case, Powerranger is ignoring the environment in favor of trying for some skillz. As you can see, power gaming and twinking are closely related.
If you get a comment that you are hunting too much then it is likely that this is all the imms see when they watch your character.
You may be doing everything else but when an imm watches you they see you hunting. You may be doing some emotes now and then but, again, when an imm was watching you they just saw you hunting... and hunting... and hunting... and hunting.
Continually hunting every day, day in and day out, may or may not be appropriate for your character. If your character is tribal and gathering supplies for their tribe, that's fine. If your character is an independent and collecting skins, hides, and bones for the Houses is probably alright as well. But if all the character is doing is hunting without a reason, leaving parts behind, etc.. then you need to rethink the hunting strategy. There should be a reason in the game as to why the character is hunting all the time and then not really doing anything with the gathered goods.
Again, you want to play your character in a manner that is consistent with the game environment. So, if your character is a hunter and hunts a lot, then do the hunting at the cooler times of the day - do the cleaning of the skins and the like during the hot part of the days or at night. Build camp fires to cook the meat. And play it out like you're part of the game and not playing the game. You'll have more fun too.
Usually when you get a comment like that it is an attempt to nudge you to do a few other things with the character. In other words, they've seen your character and they _like_ your character and want to see your character involved in other stuff.
I've seen a lot of miscellaneous comments about other stuff such as playing for karma and karma being a necessity for advancing in the game. The reality is that it is nothing like that. The best roles are independent of the karma. Play the role and worry about the skills as an after thought. One of my best characters ever used one whole skill - and that skill was contact. Originally, when I was playing him, he didn't even use that (for about ten days played).
My one suggestion to Jarod550 is this - slow down. Your characters start out weak. No matter how you wish it otherwise they start out weak. If you try and power game your character from the get-go you will be bored and miss out on opportunities to player the character and not the skills. This is a common thing by a lot of players new and experienced alike - they start a character with a certain image in their mind and then skill up to that image by doing whatever it takes. When you make a character accept and know that your character will suck and will likely suck for a long time.
This is a game about the stories of our characters and the interactions with other characters develop the tapestry of their lives. These interactions can take a lot of different forms but it is the interactions that will end up defining the character and not the character's skill. What I'm saying is this, when you play a character play the character first and the skills secondary. Don't play the skills in an attempt to define the character. Play the character and try to keep the character consistent with the game world.
When you are doing something think to yourself, "does this make sense in the area the character is in?" IE, does it make sense to be in a fight with a sentient humanoid and run two rooms then start walking, walk two more rooms, and rest? No. That humanoid could and probably is hunting down your character - therefore your char would want to get out. It's the small things like this that if you are consistent about and continually show a heads-up awareness of the environment your character is in that will, in time, lead towards karma.
Now, all that being said, I wanna say this: I play for one reason and one reason only - fun. In that, I totally agree with you. I am an advocate of playing roles that you enjoy. If someone hates their role and sees no way to progress with it then I will usually suggest retiring the character and playing something they enjoy. I do not believe in the game becoming 'work' or a chore to play. I do not believe in playing and feeling pressured or forced into doing something that you wouldn't enjoy doing.
Is it possible to create a skilled character without joining a clan? Yes. You can probably also amass a certain degree of wealth that way, so you have both physical and social power.
However, if you're truly independent, a loner, you're not going to have much use for that wealth and power, because at some point you run out of shiny new things to buy, and things to kill.
If you're only independent in the sense that you're not employed by a clan, but still have connections with other PCs, then you're going to have a lot more options for roleplay and things to do with that wealth and power.
As far as imm interaction, there are imms for unclanned characters. You might consider sending them an update from time to time, letting them know what your character is up to. Because there are a lot of indy characters, if they know something about yours, there is a better chance they will watch you and, perhaps, award karma.
It is also true, though, that clanned characters get more attention and are more likely to be awarded karma. The system we have is not perfect, it is simply the most efficient one we could think of. By assigning most imms to clans, they have a specific group of people they watch, and they get a chance to watch them over a period of time. I've never gotten a complete picture of a character by watching them once. But the longer I watch them, the more I know about them. That is why there are two suggestions (beyond roleplaying well and being trustworthy) that can help you get karma: join a clan, and live awhile. That doesn't mean that's a requirement, just that it increases the odds.
Quote from: "spawnloser"...I would be LESS likely, were I staff, to give you karma after this little hissy fit of yours...
Karma is not the point totally, it's the fact that because they saw one aspect of my character, they -assumed- that it was all I was doing, they -missed- all the good crap, and just concentrated on the negative, "Karma" is just the way I can tell that they missed the whole point, and meaning of my character.
I just feel that if they think you're doing something stupid, why don't they chime in and ask why you're doing it? I would have explained myself and then they wouldn't have to -guess-.
Anyways it doesn't matter, when my next character rolls around, I'll play him realistically, but still in a fun matter for me, and probably be pissed off again when he bites it down the road.
Thanks for the words and comments and I have absorbed some of them.
Peace,
Jarod
There are atleast one-hundred satisfied ARM customers. If they can even be called that since it's FREE and have NO OBLIGATION TO BE HERE.
I suggest for you my good friend: www.redemptionmud.com
A hack'n'slash.
Hahaha redemption. Oh man...Good times.
I don't really think its necessary for players to start aiming attacks at Jarod. It takes quite a few players quite a long time to get into the flow of things in Armageddon, and it seems like a vast majority of them are far less vocal about their issues then Jarod. It's pretty easy to get very defensive when you have people going nuts about points that you see as completely valid.
As far as independent characters go.. I think that it's relatively pointless to play a complete loner character. Sure, you're playing a role.. but it doesn't really do much of anything for the atmosphere of the MUD. It seems like Vanth's suggestion about an unaffiliated, "independent" character being completely acceptable.. but far more likely to have various contacts outside of himself.
Quote from: "Jarod550"Quote from: "spawnloser"...I would be LESS likely, were I staff, to give you karma after this little hissy fit of yours...
Karma is not the point totally, it's the fact that because they saw one aspect of my character, they -assumed- that it was all I was doing, they -missed- all the good crap, and just concentrated on the negative, "Karma" is just the way I can tell that they missed the whole point, and meaning of my character.
Maybe that means that just that one aspect of your play needs to be fixed. Ergo the other parts you are doing ok with, except that you are overhunting. If you want the staff to give you an overview of what they think of your overall RP, then turn on the 'review' command.
Quote from: "Moofassa"There are atleast one-hundred satisfied ARM customers. If they can even be called that since it's FREE and have NO OBLIGATION TO BE HERE.
I suggest for you my good friend: www.redemptionmud.com
A hack'n'slash.
Not even going to make a huge comment on this but to say.
Just because I don't agree with everything, doesn't mean I don't like this game. I'll bang around through hundreds of characters if it takes that long for someone to notice I'm doing it right, and stop focusing on all the bad shit. (what they view as bad)
Oh and I've already played redemption and have a high level character, I play about 5 muds a time.
Jarod
Quote from: "Jarod550"I'll bang around through hundreds of characters if it takes that long for someone to notice I'm doing it right, and stop focusing on all the bad shit. (what they view as bad)
You sound as if you think you're doing everything right, and its the staff's fault for not realizing it.
Quote from: "Tamarin"You sound as if you think you're doing everything right, and its the staff's fault for not realizing it.
Not blaming them, I mean they can't be everywhere at once I guess..
Jarod
Quote from: "MorganChaos"
Oh, but he is. Don't you know he's god?
*eyeroll*
Go home, little boy.
Somehow I doubt this kind of attitude helps ... anything. Talk about holier then thou attitude.
Let's keep it civil, folks. There's some good discussion here, so it would be a shame to have to end it.
Just going to add my chips onto the pile. What everyone else has said is good advice, and I hope Jarod and others like him will read and reread it, because in my mind some of the most fundamental principles of playing Armageddon are coming out in this thread from the mouths of some of the best veteran players.
Anyway. I'll start all the way back on page one:
Quote from: "Jarod550"The part that gets silly for me, and I think I stumble up on the most is the stupid vnpcs, I play to play and have fun, I love rping with -pcs-, but the nonsense of roleplaying while you kick a training dummy with nobody around is silly.
Do I understand wrong or what? We rp here, because we want to make the game real to other players, why the hell would I rp doing things on my own, when there is nobody to watch?
What makes Armageddon different from other "RP" muds is the acknowledgement and emphasis on VNPCs and on the world being more than just pieces of code. You have to grasp this concept to play well. Realize that cities are much larger in the world of Armageddon than the coded representation of them. Clans, also, are much much much larger than the dozen or so PCs and NPCs you might know. By including the virtual features of the world as well as the coded ones, Armageddon creates a much more immersive and indepth roleplaying experience than your normal hack 'n slash mud. That's the difference and that's why people take roleplaying here so seriously.
So when you're in a clan, there are no other PCs online and you decide, "Hey this is boring, I think I'll go hunt", the flags go up. If your clan has rules against leaving the city and hunting alone, you just broke them. Even if there are no pcs on, there are still plenty vnpcs in your barracks who will notice you're skipping training. More likely than not you'll be noticed breaking them by staff too. NPCs and/or VNPCs might also notice your character leaving the city gates and might report that to your superiors. And really, IMO, your reason for breaking the rules is more an OOC one (no PCs online) than an IC one. If your PC has this job that he's getting all his benefits from, would he really want to skip out on it and risk getting fired because his friends didn't show up to work that day? And so I obviously have no idea about the circumstances, but if your pc was in a clan with rules against hunting when you were told you "hunted too much"... well, in that case just one or two times would be "too much" for that pc.
You may consider that clans with rules like that are too restrictive and unfun, but having played a leadership role in a clan before where we had people who did this, we quickly noticed that inexperienced people who went off on their own often did not come back. This makes IC sense for the world of Zalanthas, too. Your chance of dying goes up exponentially once you leave the safety of cities. Most big organizations do not like constant employee turnover and having their people get killed over stupidity, thus they enact measures so that doesn't happen. I might also point out that you've said you've had several characters and none have lived very long. If you're sneaking out a lot to hunt, this could be why.
You may have noticed how often the subject of realism comes up in this thread. Understanding the game world and playing realistically and consistently within it are fundamental to good roleplay on Armageddon. This means acknowledging the VNPCs, not going hunting when it doesn't make sense to, not sneaking into the Labyrinth to kill NPCs for money, etc. If it helps, play like there are always people watching you, whether they be other PCs or staff (because you can never be totally certain you're not being watched anyway). Would you sneak into the rinth or out the gates to hunt if your knew someone was watching? Would you feel confident you had realistic IC reasons for doing whatever you were planning to do? Are you changing how your PC acts because you're around NPCs instead of PCs (or vice versa?). Stuff like that can be considered unrealistic.
On a slight tangent, remember too that the code isn't perfect at making things act as realistically as they might if a person was controlling them, but you still have to PLAY as if it would react realistically. Aggressive sentient NPCs, for instance, are not all that much trouble when the code has control of them. Some of them will blindly charge you and fight to the death. Realistically though, sentient beings are smart enough to run away when they're outmatched, or flee and harass you from out or range with arrows, or come back in greater numbers, or steal your kanks, etc. (Sometimes, I think, staff members will animate them and have them do this to drive this point home -- which is good, IMO.) It's the same with wading through the rinth clubbing NPCs. Codedly they'll just stand there. ICly they'd probably run away, get their gang of a half-dozen people together, and come back and kill you. You have to treat every single encounter with an npc as if the thing is not a retarded code automaton. If you start relying on their stupidity, 1) you're playing poorly, and 2) you're in for a nasty surprise sooner or later.
On to being buff pcs with good skills. I can recall several pcs, both dead and still alive, that I would consider very very skilled. Most of these pcs either are or were with a clan at some point to get their training, but not all of them. They are/were also rather long lived, and I remember most of them not for how high their skills were, but how well played they were. I can't speak for all of them, but my strongest PC probably spent less than half or maybe even only a third of his time training or using coded skills. He still got decently strong and had branched several skills by his death. I imagine most of the other people I'm thinking of didn't spend all their online time mashing their skills up, either. They created characters and played them as real people, with real jobs, who acted realistically. The strength came naturally after time as a result of this.
I also got the opportunity with a pc to sell things to a wide range of characters. Some of my customers, I'm fairly certain, did basically nothing but run around the grasslands hunting and killing everything and selling it for a profit (otherwise I'd have no idea how such relatively new pcs could afford my outrageous prices). These PCs were, probably as a result of their lifestyle, fairly skilled combat wise. They were also for the most part completely unmemorable, unengaging, and fairly short lived. So the question is: Would you rather run a race to get your skills up as fast as possible and end up with a strong character whose name no one will remember in the long run? Or would you rather run a marathon and advance slowly but steadily, build up a personality, and have an impact on other PCs and the game history along the way?
My advice there is to be patient and let go of the desire to be really powerful for a while, and just play your character. As you make it to 10, 20, 30 days played you will be getting stronger and start branching. By not rushing your progression and trying to do stupid things, you will also live longer. You'll also let your pc develop beyond just being a guard or a hunter. Try and find a lover. Or a best friend. Or a worst enemy. Blackmail somebody. Become a spy. And then turn around and be a double agent. All kinds of these things are fun and take you away from the normal drag a bit. You may have already done some of this, hopefully you found it fun, because Armageddon is depthless in politics and intrigue.
Real brief point about tavern sitting: I, too, shudder at the thought of a 5 hour tavern sit, but I don't think many people do that. Taverns can be boring. Taverns can also be lots of fun. And although all the people in taverns seem to be doing is "posing and emoting like crazy", you'll find many "social" pcs will have much more real power than your average hunter or guard could ever hope for. Try playing a merchant or aide or bard role sometime, if you ever want a change. You might be surprised how influential you could get, if you're smart.
Lastly, about staff, their opinions, and karma. As other people have said, openly complaining about the staff is probably not a good way to get karma. It's their game, they decide who they let play, and who they trust to play things that are karma-required. If they told you you're doing something wrong, they're probably right. Even if you don't agree with them, I would take their advice. And to echo the people who have already said so, the game isn't about gaining karma anyway. Think of it this way: no one had karma when they started out, which means everyone playing here was able to have enough fun in non-karma roles to stick around anyway.
Hope this all helps,
Jherlen
(Who honestly had no idea how long this post was until he previewed it. If anyone read it all I applaud you.)
Hrm.. where to begin. First of all, I don't think anyone can say that skills don't matter in this game. Coded skills put limits on what our characters can realistically accomplish in the game. Additionally it makes sense that your character would -want- to improve in his/her chosen profession and would likely engage in activities that would bring this about. If you're a career mercenary, for example, it stands to reason that you'd want to get pretty decent with that sword you carry around so that you're less likely to get killed.
That being said, if the only prospect my character ever had when he logged in was to ride out and kill some beasties or spend all day sparring, I'd probably stop logging in before too long. That gets pretty boring for me. I don't play this game so that I can get great with my skills, I play for the interactions my character has with other characters, be it positive or negative. This is where the fun is at. As an example, one of my most enjoyable characters in recent memory was a ranger who.. really wasn't very buff when it came down to it. What made him so enjoyable and memorable to me are the friendships and relationships that he formed. This guy lasted about twenty plus days and would get his ass handed to him by a gortok. Would I have liked him to have been a bit more handy in combat? Sure, he might have lived a bit longer. If I could do it all over again would I have spent more time training up my skills at the expense of developing relationships and interacting in a meaningful way with other characters? No.
This isn't to say you can't have it both ways. It's entirely possible to become skilled and interact with others at the same time, but for me I'd rather put the focus on the interaction. It's a lot like real life. You can become really successful in your career and make assloads of loot, but without people to share your life with, it tends to have a lot less meaning.
So the next time you feel like going out hunting, consider heading to the bar instead to have a drink, share a story, make a new friend or enemy. It's bound to make the rest of the things you do in the game that much more enjoyable.
Quote from: "Jherlen"So when you're in a clan, there are no other PCs online and you decide, "Hey this is boring, I think I'll go hunt", the flags go up. If your clan has rules against leaving the city and hunting alone, you just broke them. Even if there are no pcs on, there are still plenty vnpcs in your barracks who will notice you're skipping training. More likely than not you'll be noticed breaking them by staff too. NPCs and/or VNPCs might also notice your character leaving the city gates and might report that to your superiors. And really, IMO, your reason for breaking the rules is more an OOC one (no PCs online) than an IC one.
Yes, and misinterpretations happen too. Like when no one has informed your character that it's not alright to travel further than point <x>, then that character gets landed on like a ton of bricks for doing so. If it happens behind the scenes, you can never even know what you did wrong.
People's advice on here very largely fits one template. If it hurts your character, it must be good RP. If it helps your character, you're under suspicion of twinking. I would say there is more to it. If you want to be noticed, RP in a way that the staff enjoys. Generate plots, set the stage, and play it out. Showmanship is what gathers notice.
So can you do well as an independent? Very difficult to run a one-person play.
Join Kadius and hunt for them. Go up north and hunt solo. There's things you can do as an independent.
Best way is to work on your own for a while (join the Byn), then go independent when you're good.
If you get bored and get the urge to go out and kill shit, you are playing the wrong part of the game.
I myself used to be that way, then I played a couple roles that kept me in the city. I still get the urge to go out and hunt, but I don't hunt shit bigger than myself, by myself.
Jarod, my advice to you is, get into a clan and stick it out, it could take a long time, or you may die first, but it really gets you to appreciate it when you are the top of the wave and everyone is coming up behind you. Just hope you don't die alone, huh?
If you choose to go indy, make sure you email the unclanned PC IMMs with updates for your PC. If you make an honest attempt to keep them informed of the goings-on of your character, chances are things will happen.
Independents: yes, independents can survive and from what I hear might fit your playstyle more (although conversely, playing in clans may turn you on to a playstyle you hadn't thought of before). As to the level of success - well, if you want, you can have an independent essentially as safe as a clanned PC who makes a modest living carving rocks or sifting spice. Or you can have a wildly succesful PC who is at constant risk of horrific death. I think there's some fun to be had in either, although again, the latter might suit your playstyle more.
A few tips: while you may enjoy combat, it is not something that your independent will find incredibly profitable for a long time. When your 80-day ranger can stealthily track a bahamet through the grasses for a day and a night, stick a poisoned arrow between its eyes from half a mile away, and then have his pack of sunback pets drag the corpse back to the city you will be getting a 'big score.' Good luck on that one. There's probably more money to be made in less time and with less risk of death in things that are scaled more to one person's capabilities - riding out into the unexplored wastes and finding an oasis for a House, moving rare trade goods from city to city, finding rare stones and making them into jewlery, etc. These are all still challenging and uncommon activities that you can stick an interesting character too. The hardest ways to make it as an independent generally centre around killing things or people, and that's probably a conscious decision on the immortals' part.
Karma: the boards are not the best place to address that issue. Send a polite email to the mud@armageddon.org account, ask your questions, and make your case if you think you deserve more karma than you have. The imms are pretty good about either letting you know why they haven't given you karma yet, or correcting any oversights they may have made. I didn't get karma myself for a year and a half until I - politely! - inquired about it. I will stress politely one third time because it's pretty easy to get sassy on the Interweb and that would definitely not help your case none.
Roleplaying in general: I don't like tavern-sitting either, so much so that I've let my current character lapse into relative inactivity because she turned into one of them. There is still plenty of room for characters in Arm who aren't tavern-sitting - just make sure that you're playing them reasonably! How much time do you spend in a day actively working on something, eight hours? If we discount sleep, that still suggests that a normal Armageddon character would only spend about half to two-thirds of his or her time, tops, on 'work', whether that be practicing skills or gathering minerals or what-have-you. The temptation to plow ahead as a loner independent is pretty fierce, and that may be what's tripping you up. But again, the best people to ask are the ones who've seen you play, the immortals.
I think one can live as an independant (by whatever definition you choose) with relative ease, particularly if you're an experienced player. I find it quite easy, though after a while it can get boring, especially if your character doesn't have a purpose outside of his/her own personal goals. It's good to have ties with other people, even if you're not in a clan "officially".
On the subject of karma my suggestions are this. Politeness goes an obscenely long way. You'd be surprised. Also, the trouble with independant-style players and karma is that the two rarely go hand-in-hand. Even though there are designated "independant" staff, it can still be difficult to get noticed when you're unclanned, especially if you're UNINVOLVED with the rest of the playerbase.
Though some will tell you "you shouldn't play for karma", let's face it, a good portion of us want it! Many players want to try out something different and otherwise restricted (probably even moreso because it's restricted). So I think what it really boils down to is, what's most important to you? Surviving independantly or acquiring karma? If it's the former, I suggest you slow it down, don't be in such a hurry to see what's on the other side of that cliff, or if you can handle 2 gortoks at once, then 3, then 4, etc. If it's the latter, I highly suggest that you join a clan and STICK WITH YOUR ROLE. Become involved, expect some downtimes where, yes, you may have to sit idle in a tavern (though not always); the more players are involved with you the more attention you receive. I would suggest sending in a special application for a lower-karma guild/race but you might want to hold off if you have any recent negative account notes, as mentioned.
It sounds like you're particularly keen on a lack of restraint. I can totally relate. Going from independant to (most) clans involves a tremendous amount of restraint, and even the less-than-restraining clans still often require you to spend years of restraint until you prove yourself and THEN gain permission to wander freely. If so, then I'd suggest working unofficially for a clan and try to stick around as long as you can, get to know people, let them get to know you and rely on you/need you for certain things. And above all, be polite with the game hosts (staff) when communicating with them, it makes a world of a difference. Nobody says you have to kiss ass, but demonstrating appreciation says a lot. You may even find that's the only thing you need to change in order to see things shape up for you.
Quote from: "Pantoufle"I think one can live as an independant (by whatever definition you choose) with relative ease, particularly if you're an experienced player. I find it quite easy, though after a while it can get boring, especially if your character doesn't have a purpose outside of his/her own personal goals. It's good to have ties with other people, even if you're not in a clan "officially".
On the subject of karma my suggestions are this. Politeness goes an obscenely long way. You'd be surprised. Also, the trouble with independant-style players and karma is that the two rarely go hand-in-hand. Even though there are designated "independant" staff, it can still be difficult to get noticed when you're unclanned, especially if you're UNINVOLVED with the rest of the playerbase.
Though some will tell you "you shouldn't play for karma", let's face it, a good portion of us want it! Many players want to try out something different and otherwise restricted (probably even moreso because it's restricted). So I think what it really boils down to is, what's most important to you? Surviving independantly or acquiring karma? If it's the former, I suggest you slow it down, don't be in such a hurry to see what's on the other side of that cliff, or if you can handle 2 gortoks at once, then 3, then 4, etc. If it's the latter, I highly suggest that you join a clan and STICK WITH YOUR ROLE. Become involved, expect some downtimes where, yes, you may have to sit idle in a tavern (though not always); the more players are involved with you the more attention you receive. I would suggest sending in a special application for a lower-karma guild/race but you might want to hold off if you have any recent negative account notes, as mentioned.
It sounds like you're particularly keen on a lack of restraint. I can totally relate. Going from independant to (most) clans involves a tremendous amount of restraint, and even the less-than-restraining clans still often require you to spend years of restraint until you prove yourself and THEN gain permission to wander freely. If so, then I'd suggest working unofficially for a clan and try to stick around as long as you can, get to know people, let them get to know you and rely on you/need you for certain things. And above all, be polite with the game hosts (staff) when communicating with them, it makes a world of a difference. Nobody says you have to kiss ass, but demonstrating appreciation says a lot. You may even find that's the only thing you need to change in order to see things shape up for you.
Holy crap, I think it's the first post on the subject where someone actually related to the way I feel without being a total ass and saying "it's not about Karma" "play your role and shut up"
Thank you,
Jarod
This is directed at many new players. I'm not trying to single anyone out but provide feedback that may assist new players in getting acclimated to the game. The "you" referenced throughout is generic.
Don't confuse emotes with roleplaying. Yes, they can be part of it. But the important thing is the role. Acting out the character, its motivations, its fears, its loves -- its life, in short. The story of your character is the point of the game, and the more deeply you immerse yourself in that, rather than figuring out how best to branch your backstab, the more enjoyable you will find the experience.
Pantoufle is right in saying the politeness goes a very long way. So does demonstrating that you've understood feedback and are attempting to incorporate it in your play, rather than getting defensive and/or refusing to change the play that received the negative comment in the first place. The staff doesn't exist to torment players, but one of its purposes is making sure that people are playing out their roles. If, for example, you're playing in a clan, that clan doesn't want its employees running around hunting, and the clan immortal has told you to knock off the excess hunting, then you need to make a choice regarding whether to quit the clan and continue the hunting or stay in it and abide by the same guidelines everyone else is. Staying in it and continuing to hunt is not an option unless you are willing to accept the IC consequences of persistently disobeying the wishes of the house elders.
A while back, I saw a player getting upset because they thought their character was being picked on by the staff when in actuality it was motivated by IC forces. They wanted to know if another character was being treated the same way, and the question took me aback because I think it's important to remember that while we, the staff, try to be fair, we're also here to enforce a harsh and unfair world where a clan higher up might, in fact, make an arbitrary judgement. That's an IC occurence, and it should be treated ICly. Olgaris said something to another character who was in similar circumstances around the same time, and I liked it enough to stick it in a notepad.
QuoteTo offer some constructive criticism - you asked for it - try and
remember that Armageddon is all about harshness. This recent string of
events, kicking you in the face while you're down, that's what we're
here for. While it is understandable that your character be wrought
with strife, as things like this continue, he'll toughen up into a
rough old slaver, telling tales of danger outlived.
As a writer, I don't want to create stories where everything goes right for the main character. In fact, the more bad things that happen to him or her, the more interesting the story. Let your character roll with the punches, and you may surprised how much fun it becomes. With my longest lived character (an infamous Whiran), I don't think things ever went well - she was perpetually getting kicked out of merchant houses, marked with bounties, divided by circumstance from her loved ones, and so on. And that was the most fun I've ever had with a character. But I digress.
Regardless of any of this, this game is not for everyone. On occasion I see a severe disconnect regarding the staff's intentions for the game and what a player wants it to be. In such cases, I usually suggest that the player move on to another game. If you are getting the same comments about powergaming or ignoring the virtual world over and over again, then perhaps you may want to find another MUD. In such a case, it's clear that you're not listening to what we're saying, and if you're not going to do that, it's just going to perpetuate a situation which is aggravating both sides.
Quote from: "Sanvean"As a writer, I don't want to create stories where everything goes right for the main character. In fact, the more bad things that happen to him or her, the more interesting the story. Let your character roll with the punches, and you may surprised how much fun it becomes. With my longest lived character (an infamous Whiran), I don't think things ever went well - she was perpetually getting kicked out of merchant houses, marked with bounties, divided by circumstance from her loved ones, and so on. And that was the most fun I've ever had with a character. But I digress.
Yes, yes, yes, yes. Call me a sucker for punishment, a masochist or whatever you want to call me. But strife in a character's story - or if not strife, unexpected events - make it far more enjoyable to play out. While it may be realistic to live out a life of reclusive blandness, it doesn't usually make for a very good story.
To tie that into this thread's general meaning - a life of hunting at dawn, selling at dusk, and tavern sitting at night may very well be emoted out with excruciating detail and predictability. However, without depth to your character and without meaninful interaction with others, you're robbing yourself of a story and potentially great experiences.
With effort and forethought, independents can be an amazing amount of fun. Especially when things happen that thwart your perfectly laid plans, often leaving your character wondering if they will have food or water tomorrow, much less buying that fancy new kickass bow and giant bahamet slaying sword of doom.
However, if you do live long enough, and your efforts begin to bear fruits, you will find an insane amount of pride in your character and their resiliency. And I'm not just talking about hunting animals, but in living off whatever they can find, making sure not to piss of the wrong people, living by a scrap of skin after getting involved in the most dangerous of rp situations, so on and so forth.
Sure, there is no guarantee that your character will see the light of Suk-Krath, but that only further reinforces the desire to make the best of now. I've only been on the mud a short time, but already it's been shown to me how harsh and brutal a world Zalanthas is. Nothing is certain, nothing is free, and the hot sandy wastes of Zalanthas doesn't give a damn if you live to see tomorrow. :)
And for that, I love it. Independents rock.
QuoteRegardless of any of this, this game is not for everyone. On occasion I see a severe disconnect regarding the staff's intentions for the game and what a player wants it to be. In such cases, I usually suggest that the player move on to another game. If you are getting the same comments about powergaming or ignoring the virtual world over and over again, then perhaps you may want to find another MUD. In such a case, it's clear that you're not listening to what we're saying, and if you're not going to do that, it's just going to perpetuate a situation which is aggravating both sides.
Is that a suggestion to me that you feel I fight that mold and you want me to move on?
Jarod
QuoteIs that a suggestion to me that you feel I fight that mold and you want me to move on?
This was just a mod piping up telling you to adapt to the game, much as
many people have been, Jarod. The quote below from the beginning of
Sanvean's post should say it all:
QuoteThis is directed at many new players. I'm not trying to single anyone out but provide feedback that may assist new players in getting acclimated to the game. The "you" referenced throughout is generic.
Remember, you're not the only (relatively) new player here, you're just
the most vocal in a while.
Quote from: "Jarod550"Is that a suggestion to me that you feel I fight that mold and you want me to move on?
The only reason to play a game is to have fun.
If you're not having fun playing this game as it's meant to be played, why stay? Don't waste your time here, but find something that better suits your fancy.
If, on the other hand, you'd prefer to stick around and maybe try again, you're more than welcome to do that as well.
Quote from: "Sanvean"As a writer, I don't want to create stories where everything goes right for the main character. In fact, the more bad things that happen to him or her, the more interesting the story. Let your character roll with the punches, and you may surprised how much fun it becomes. With my longest lived character (an infamous Whiran), I don't think things ever went well - she was perpetually getting kicked out of merchant houses, marked with bounties, divided by circumstance from her loved ones, and so on. And that was the most fun I've ever had with a character. But I digress.
Quote from: "Delirium"Yes, yes, yes, yes. Call me a sucker for punishment, a masochist or whatever you want to call me. But strife in a character's story - or if not strife, unexpected events - make it far more enjoyable to play out. While it may be realistic to live out a life of reclusive blandness, it doesn't usually make for a very good story.
While I agree with both sentiments and believe it is this "strife" which makes the game enjoyable, I've also found a tendancy amongst some to overdo this. Going to the opposite end of the spectrum can be just as detrimental as the reverse. In other words, too much strife/conflict/blood can be just as bad as none whatsoever. I realise this is a bit of a subthread to the original topic but also felt it worth remarking on here.
Several characters ago I played a long lived persona in a clan which -- I felt -- was horribly micromanaged. My character spent more time stuck talking to NPC elders in private rooms, at times, than doing what I had hoped to do: interact with the actual playerbase! Worse still, his elders and enemies both seemed hell bent on practising this notion of "Let's make the game as harsh as possible, it's more fun that way" that it completely ruined the game experience for me. What I'm saying is, that while it's important for our characters (whether they be rugged mercenaries or dainty merchants) to face conflict and danger, they should also face occasional rewards too. In 6 months of playing the aforementioned character, the only enjoyable aspects of playing him were the events which
I accomplished for him on my own; his superiors never bothered to give him any nifty little hand outs; all they had ever done was make life miserable for him (maybe, even, because they thought they were making the game more fun for me). In short, the game should not be easy for us or perfect or fun, though neither should it be all negativity. Yes, it's a harsh world (I couldn't possibly be more aware of this fact), but it's the occasional rewards within such a harsh environment which keep us coming back for more. A light shines brightest in the dark and all that..
I play for fun, mainly. I don't spend 10 minutes solo-emote skinning every single corpse or emote every single time I type /forage food, but I try to make realistic characters. Have I done some twinky things? Yeah, of course. At this point, I don't really want karma. I wouldn't trust myself to play a magicker, let alone a mindbender. I learn something new every single character (and I've had a fair amount), and I think gaining karma enough for more options would be sensory overload. Point is, you can have shitloads of fun without karma, and you'll probably feel less stressed playing too. I can only imagine how much the immortals watch karma 8 characters.
You don't have to spend ten minutes emoting how you're skinning a corpse. The idea behind emoting is to flesh out what you're doing. A simple emote will suffice, and you don't need anything big and flowery that takes up four lines.
Say you're foraging for roots. You could emote something like "The dirty ranger digs through the dirt in front of him." You don't even have to do that every single time you codedly forage. Just throw something in here and there.
Karma roles can be loads of fun, yes. However, non-karma roles can be too. It's all in how you play them. And why does it matter how much the IMMs watch you? If the thought of being watched by the IMMs worries or scares you, either you aren't doing something right, or you're letting paranoia ruin your fun. Being watched is not a bad thing, because sometimes they will make interesting things happen.
Quote from: "Cuusardo"You don't have to spend ten minutes emoting how you're skinning a corpse. The idea behind emoting is to flesh out what you're doing. A simple emote will suffice, and you don't need anything big and flowery that takes up four lines.
Say you're foraging for roots. You could emote something like "The dirty ranger digs through the dirt in front of him." You don't even have to do that every single time you codedly forage. Just throw something in here and there.
Karma roles can be loads of fun, yes. However, non-karma roles can be too. It's all in how you play them. And why does it matter how much the IMMs watch you? If the thought of being watched by the IMMs worries or scares you, either you aren't doing something right, or you're letting paranoia ruin your fun. Being watched is not a bad thing, because sometimes they will make interesting things happen.
I think I'm starting to understand Jarod.
Err..ahem. Ok, I'll add in a bit of suggestion to your original question, Jarod.
Yes, I think it is possible to make a independent hunter without any reliance on merchant houses. I've met, so far, quite a number of people who are independent hunters providing items and raw materials to merchants and crafters. With a bit of interaction in taverns or other PC populated areas, you might even get hooked up with a contract without actually joining in a clan. (Perhaps escorting a person from one place to another etc)
And as for the staffs 'ignoring your good side of rp and just regarding you as powergaming', I think the best way for you is to keep logs and then send in a log in which your PC was in a very eventful situation, maybe that way you can show the staff that you are actually not powergaming. *shrugs*
As for the karma part. Yes, it IS fun to play a certain race or guild that wasn't opened up to you when you first started. But, on the other hand, I'm told and I've met PCs of your average non magickal guild who had shaped the history of Armageddon. And I'm sure if you ask some of the veteran players :P, they'll be telling you that some of their favorite characters are non karma required. (My favorite character hardly used anything on the skill list except for contact and listen, but hey I still had fun :) )
Like all the posts that posted before me, I have to come to agree that it's not the KARMA or the CODE that decides what's fun for you though they might have a small factor in what sort of occupation your PC will be choosing, but how your PC grow and develop through a series of events. :) Being able to backstab0rz a half-giant in one go is no fun unless there is a plot attached to it.[/i]
Quote from: "Cegar"I think I'm starting to understand Jarod.
I'm not sure what this means. You understand the angry posing that he does? You understand his frustration in that he plays roles that won't get much notice by the staff and, thus, it doesn't matter so much how well he's playing, he still will be slow to get karma?
Really, there are ways to deal with this. Make the staff notice you. Send in updates of what your character's doing. Don't just go hunt, skin, sell, repeat...have actual life happen to your character besides work, and tell the staff about that. Your character's thoughts and emotions. Use the think command.
Playing an indie character isn't about just making it by. It's about making it by realistically and while not ignoring your character's non-mechanical, non-working side.
Quote from: "spawnloser"I'm not sure what this means. You understand the angry posing that he does? You understand his frustration in that he plays roles that won't get much notice by the staff and, thus, it doesn't matter so much how well he's playing, he still will be slow to get karma?
/quote]
Yeah, I do understand his angry posting. When nearly every person posts some condescending crap about him needing to flesh out his character with emotes and a life when he said he has, I can imagine that'd make me pretty pissed off. I think some people haven't really read his posts. They see something about immortals, karma, "hunts too much", and then automatically post how they think he should roleplay. Wouldn't you be pissed off if I just responded to your post with some treatise on solo-rping with the sac-like tuber you found or something?
Look,
I have and probably will fuck up and do something unrealistic with my character or future characters. I do my best to role play them realistically but in ways I enjoy as the player. Will and has my character spent whole days sitting in one spot, emoting and speaking, and had fun, HELL YES. Do eventfull things like that happen on every ig or ooc day? No way. Does my character hunt and skin and god knows what else outside in the world a good bit, yes, does he forage all day to sit resting throughout the night in the dangerous outside just so he can forage again? No.
To me, and to my character, I do everything as realistic as I can think of, and when I fuck up, I normally get a pretty quick letter from some staff or the other, saying "Hey this shouldn't have gone down this way" Then I either explain or nod and take it as a learning experience. I understand there are only so many imms and so many watching pc's at one time. And also that my character being an indy character is more apt to be missed or lost in the shuffle, I accept that.
Karma, Do I want it as a player, sure, because I would like to experience the different options of play. Do I kill my character on purpose to see if anything pops up on the new character screen, nope.
I'm finally getting this game right, I'm so engrossed in my current role, that even if I was told, "Hey you can play a mindbender if you kill soandso" I would decline. I'm finally to the point where I realise that if you're creative enough and work hard enough, your characters are fun.
I used to just take uncalculated risks with my characters, toss it at some poisonous critter with no cures, -hoping- that my coded skills were good enough to survive. Now I weigh a good amount of what I do against the common threat in arm, DEATH. I only grudgingly go against untested and unknown challenges, because I don't want my character to die.
I've had conversations with many of you VIA pm's and you getting my aim through my posts. And I get one common complaint from you folks "You play characters that are like you, or respond like you" I guess they are right to a degree, me as a person and player am more interested in combat, fighting, strength ect ect. So I pick classes and guilds and house jobs ect ect on what I -feel- will be the easiest and most natural for me to play. If that is being unrealistic and that's something that is frowned upon, well then let me know now.
I guess I'm getting sick of constantly having to defend myself as a player and my characters, and having people in game throw jobs at my character and assume that because it will technically be a cooshier situation for my character (free food free water pay) that my character should jump at it. I don't want to do something that's going to limit my enjoyment of this great world that you folks built or helped build, because it's the -standard-.
I am at work and have to book out, but I finally decided I should spell this all out and let you folks know, that if you're offering me unbiased, constructive comments, great and thank you.
But if you're just looking to mold me into playing like you, I'm not EVER going to do that. Hell I WISH that staff would watch me play for a week or so and comment, then I would know from the only people that matter "staff" what they like and dislike and maybe I would explain away some of my rationalization of this or that fact. If they explained something to me that made sense, I would listen. So far besides for a few slips, I haven't heard anything good. I am not trying to be arrogant, but come on, can I -really- be that big of a fuck up?
Dunno, gotta run,
Later,
Jarod
The only opinions that truly matter are yours and staff.
Really. It's freeing once you get that.
I agree that having people throw jobs at you or accept you (if you happen to be playing that halfbreed or escaped mul) when they truly shouldn't or wouldn't is annoying. It makes the world into something it isn't supposed to be.
And finally, no one is trying to mold you into a particular type of roleplayer and your posts here have nothing to do with your in-game character, especially if you keep ooc separate from ic. No one will ever know you are playing a particular character.
Violate that, though, and yeah your characters will be judged accidentally or no based (I suspect) on the quality of your GDB posts.
QuoteI used to just take uncalculated risks with my characters, toss it at some poisonous critter with no cures, -hoping- that my coded skills were good enough to survive. Now I weigh a good amount of what I do against the common threat in arm, DEATH. I only grudgingly go against untested and unknown challenges, because I don't want my character to die.
Though it's possible it's what you actually meant, I think the key to Arm isn't what
you want him to do or feel.
The key is what he - your character who is not you - wants. You don't make him attack that poisonous critter because HE wouldn't want to risk it. Ideally (though this is not always the case obviously),
your feelings shouldn't be a factor. It's a role. Try and see it as seperate from yourself as best you can, and as long as you're trying to do that, I say
ignore all the rest of these people hating on you because you're doing your best and that's all you can do.
QuoteI guess I'm getting sick of constantly having to defend myself as a player and my characters
Honestly Jarod, the only suggestion I can give you is to post a lot less on these boards. You'll only get more of it the more you post, specifically in defense of yourself and your playstyle. As long as you
are putting forth an honest effort to
roleplay and not actively offending Immortals in some way, none of the rest of these people make a lick of difference.
Three things matter:
Listen to Immortals
Know Zalanthas
Roleplay
As long as you're doing those three things to the best of your ability and trying to learn as much as you can along the way, nobody can touch you.
Quote from: "Supreme Allah"
Honestly Jarod, the only suggestion I can give you is to post a lot less on these boards. You'll only get more of it the more you post, specifically in defense of yourself and your playstyle. As long as you are putting forth an honest effort to roleplay and not actively offending Immortals in some way, none of the rest of these people make a lick of difference.
I've already came to the conclusion that the other people don't make a difference, and I post because I have opinions and -most- of the time I put them out here for valid reasons.
To just not post as much, for fear of people sounding off with ignorant claims or flames at me is to be sorta IMO a sissy about it. Hell I can be sick of it for the rest of my life, and I'll still defend and explain myself. I just as the immortals say, have to do it in a non flaming way, so I'll work on my wordcrafting and just mearly ask that people stop jumping on the bandwagon and think for themselves for once.
Jarod
Quote from: "Jarod550"Look,
I have and probably will fuck up and do something unrealistic with my character or future characters. I do my best to role play them realistically but in ways I enjoy as the player.
What this attitude says to Imms and other players is that you having fun is more important than role-playing realistically. You mention in other posts that you will rationalize play to make sure you can have fun. This is a primary reason why you shouldn't
expect to see any karma. How can a staff member trust you to play a delicate role when you make it plain to them that your personal enjoyment will consistently trump the rules and expectations they have for the role.
Quote from: "Jarod550"But if you're just looking to mold me into playing like you, I'm not EVER going to do that. Hell I WISH that staff would watch me play for a week or so and comment, then I would know from the only people that matter "staff" what they like and dislike and maybe I would explain away some of my rationalization of this or that fact.
More of the same attitude that I mentioned above in your first sentence. It's like joining a football team and telling them that you don't believe in the "roughing the passer" penalty and are going to kick his ass every single play. Do you actually think that attitude would get you on the team? Does it matter at all what -you- think in that scenario? No, it matters what the people who create and enforce the rules of the game think when it comes to whether or not you get to play.
As for Imms giving you good feedback. You claim that you've talked with them or received letters from them multiple times that discuss what you are doing wrong, and none that discuss what you are doing right. Yet your rationalization is that they just happen to be catching you when you're doing something bad. Every time. Let's put this in other terms:
You have window that looks into a room with a man and a woman in it. Everytime you open that window, the man is physically assaulting the woman. Logic will tell you that the man is physically assaulting the woman the majority of the time since he always seems to be doing it when you happen to take a peek. Now the man says, "I hardly ever beat on her. I do a lot of other good stuff, you just never see it."
Would YOU believe him? When every time you see him, he happens to be beating her? Most people would not, which is why you may be running into a lot of flak.
Quote from: "Jarod550"If they explained something to me that made sense, I would listen. So far besides for a few slips, I haven't heard anything good. I am not trying to be arrogant, but come on, can I -really- be that big of a fuck up?
Sometimes it takes people a long time to understand why their actions aren't really in line with how the game should be played. Some of the contributing factors are:
ImmaturityA lack of maturity results in a lack of recognition for how a scene should be played, or an understanding of the consequences that go hand-in-hand with actions you may take. Just like some children have to touch the stove before they realize it's hot or steal a candy bar until someone shows them why that's wrong, people do things in Armageddon that aren't realistic, logical or mature. Krath knows I've been guilty of this.
SelfishnessAnother reason is a degree of selfishness where a person believes that their fun is more important than other player's fun, obeying the rules, acting realistically, being patient, etc... They don't care if spam stealing is wrong, or if hunting every animal within a 50 room square every day is excessive (whether or not they emote). They just want to have fun, even if it doesn't necessarily make sense or adhere to the rules.
This isn't a one-player game. Your actions can directly affect those of another player, whether you are aware of them or not. When your RP and actions begin to become abusive or reckless, then the Imms may try to let you know what they feel you need to change in order to better fit with the rest of the game.
It's like being on a team. Despite your character's personal motivations, we players are all working toward a common goal - which is to interact with the gameworld and one another in an attempt to have a rewarding experience in which we create, act and complete an everchanging and evergrowing story while obeying the rules of the game and keeping true to the spirit of Armageddon.
-LoD
Quote from: "LoD"
What this attitude says to Imms and other players is that you having fun is more important than role-playing realistically. You mention in other posts that you will rationalize play to make sure you can have fun. This is a primary reason why you shouldn't expect to see any karma. How can a staff member trust you to play a delicate role when you make it plain to them that your personal enjoyment will consistently trump the rules and expectations they have for the role.
Okay once again I must clarify cause you're not getting the point...
"some people" act like they must be SO in character as to let no motivation drive them to make their character do this or that. You're telling me that my ranger, should wake up, and as long as he has food in his stomach, water in his stomach, and coins in his pocket, be happy? So what's that translate to, spending hours of rl time sitting in the bar, until the need to eat hits him, and he's out of sids, before he will actually -do- anything?
I can't say too much as to give away who I am in game to those of you who don't know. But my character is driven by the motivations that I designed in him when I wrote up and update his history and agenda. Everything he does is to strive towards his objective and does do it at the exclusion of sleep, food, drinking or socializing. He does it by the book.
Again this is an attempt by another player "LoD" to carve me into the mold he sets his characters by. I don't know if I ever interacted with LoD's characters or not, but I'll tell you what. My ranger has had more interactions with folks then any of the previous twenty characters I've ever made.
To say that I "trump" the rules to fit my own enjoyment is mearly a cheaply thought out flame directed at me, because in this game, whatever you want to do can be creatively worked in to the scheme of things. I've had "helpers" who've told me that.
I don't look at the rules of realism or play and say "hmm, how can I break these today" as you're basically saying I do. I look at things and go "Hmm, how would doing this fit in with joebobs life and the way he acts, is it consistent, would it make sense" And if it does, I do it. Now do I walk him into a latrine or dirty house and go "Hmm would joe bob benifit from emoting that he's cleaning this house, would it fit his character?" HELL NO, cause that's lame and not fun.
If you are to the point, where you totally seperate yourself from your character to the extent that you do things that you as the player (who controls the character) are not enjoying or dislikes, you shouldn't be playing that damn game. Now I understand that sometimes you might be forced ICly to do something you don't like, (templar, your boss, whatever) and that's different. Which is why my character has NO HOUSE. I submit to templars when I am put in a position to have to, and play it realistically as we all know they can say a word and have me dead.
But when I'm waking up in my house or hall or whatever, and deciding, with free will of my character at hand, to go do something, I'm going to go do something that makes sense for my character, and IS enjoyable for ME. Not running out and killing everything I see, just what I need to do for my character.
Again, if I don't get Karma, that's fine, cause I'm having a blast, with my old nothing karma, rangers.
Quote from: "LoD"Sometimes it takes people a long time to understand why their actions aren't really in line with how the game should be played. Some of the contributing factors are:
Immaturity
A lack of maturity results in a lack of recognition for how a scene should be played, or an understanding of the consequences that go hand-in-hand with actions you may take. Just like some children have to touch the stove before they realize it's hot or steal a candy bar until someone shows them why that's wrong, people do things in Armageddon that aren't realistic, logical or mature. Krath knows I've been guilty of this.
Selfishness
Another reason is a degree of selfishness where a person believes that their fun is more important than other player's fun, obeying the rules, acting realistically, being patient, etc... They don't care if spam stealing is wrong, or if hunting every animal within a 50 room square every day is excessive (whether or not they emote). They just want to have fun, even if it doesn't necessarily make sense or adhere to the rules.
This isn't a one-player game. Your actions can directly affect those of another player, whether you are aware of them or not. When your RP and actions begin to become abusive or reckless, then the Imms may try to let you know what they feel you need to change in order to better fit with the rest of the game.
It's like being on a team. Despite your character's personal motivations, we players are all working toward a common goal - which is to interact with the gameworld and one another in an attempt to have a rewarding experience in which we create, act and complete an everchanging and evergrowing story while obeying the rules of the game and keeping true to the spirit of Armageddon. -LoD
Of all the things I discuss in my posts, I always seek out to do things with others, I'm not selfish as many a people who've interacted with my character could tell you were I allowed to submit this proof. I'm far from immature about it either, a good majority of you folks simply see the need to jump on the bandwagon anytime that someone mentions an immortal, karma, or any combinations of the two. Again, I ask for construtive comments, not "I'm holier then thou, you horrible rper" comments that you provided.
To act like I'm an idiot and need practical examples such as a kid touching a stove, you can personally take that comment and save it for someone who needs it. What I see a large majority of the problem in this game being is the restrictions that so many of you place on your pcs, Some of you even go to the extent that if you get injured you emote for half an hour about how badly your head hurt, which can be fun, can be great, but not everyone wants to see this fellow in the bar bitching about his head.
If I could, I would shout loud and clear who I was in game, because there is a chance I've interacted with you on many occurances and I would be willing to bet that if I didn't have a known forum presence, you wouldn't have shit to say.
Jarod
Jarod, all you're doing is reaffirming things that you shouldn't be doing. Here is the biggest one, as I see it:
"I don't want to make my PC do this thing, because I, Jarod, don't want to do it."
You said:
QuoteIf you are to the point, where you totally seperate yourself from your character to the extent that you do things that you as the player (who controls the character) are not enjoying or dislikes, you shouldn't be playing that damn game.
This is complete backwards logic. This is putting yourself so completely inside your character that you are willing to do things that you would hate to do in real life. If you were separating yourself completely from your character, you'd be playing a dissociative sociopath.
The point of the game isn't to do things that you find fun. The point of the game is to play a role. Obviously, it makes sense that we (and Jarod you are a part of this 'we') would pick roles that we find fun. That goes without saying. But quite frankly, anyone can run around and hunt and sell stuff. Great. We need those people. They bring us stuff that we need. But playing an intricately crafted social role is immeasurably more difficult. These are the people who shape the world with the colors of their imagination, so I'd appreciate it if you'd stop referring to them as "pointless tavern-sitters" (I'm paraphrasing, but you get the idea).
QuoteWhat this attitude says to Imms and other players is that you having fun is more important than role-playing realistically.
The day that I'm not having fun role-playing realistically is the day that I go out and do something unrealistic..... yes, I'm impulsive.
Is this still a game?
Semper Pax,
Dirr
Quote from: "Tamarin"Jarod, all you're doing is reaffirming things that you shouldn't be doing. Here is the biggest one, as I see it:
"I don't want to make my PC do this thing, because I, Jarod, don't want to do it."
You said:
QuoteIf you are to the point, where you totally seperate yourself from your character to the extent that you do things that you as the player (who controls the character) are not enjoying or dislikes, you shouldn't be playing that damn game.
This is complete backwards logic. This is putting yourself so completely inside your character that you are willing to do things that you would hate to do in real life. If you were separating yourself completely from your character, you'd be playing a dissociative sociopath.
The point of the game isn't to do things that you find fun. The point of the game is to play a role. Obviously, it makes sense that we (and Jarod you are a part of this 'we') would pick roles that we find fun. That goes without saying. But quite frankly, anyone can run around and hunt and sell stuff. Great. We need those people. They bring us stuff that we need. But playing an intricately crafted social role is immeasurably more difficult. These are the people who shape the world with the colors of their imagination, so I'd appreciate it if you'd stop referring to them as "pointless tavern-sitters" (I'm paraphrasing, but you get the idea).
I can respect this post from Tamarin here, maybe I did mix up the idea, but you still got it, and at least you admitted that you play roles you considers fun, so do I. I don't -want- to change the world, I don't -want- shape the world with the colors of my imagination.
Is it so wrong to just want to be a simple hunter? And enjoy it? I don't need all this political crap, it's not entertaining for me. I probably will never ever attempt to play a templar or noble or kadius or salarr JUST for that reason.
I just want to get people out of the mind frame that "If you're doing it at all different then the rest of us, you're wrong".
So now stop trying to change me because "I'm the fellow who brings you what you need"
Jarod
EDIT: My appologies to all your folks in the taverns, I will refer to you now as "world changing tavern sitters"
Lol
Quote from: "Anonymous"QuoteWhat this attitude says to Imms and other players is that you having fun is more important than role-playing realistically.
The day that I'm not having fun role-playing realistically is the day that I go out and do something unrealistic..... yes, I'm impulsive.
Is this still a game?
Semper Pax,
Dirr
Believe it or not, I had a helper tell me once, "This isn't a game, if you think of it as a game you're never going to succeed"
So who knows Dirr, but me and you will keep the faith, and grow us a revolution that is centered around realistically fun rp!
Rawr,
Jarod
I understand your gripe Jarod, I really do. I went through a phase where that's all I wanted to do as well. I just hope that you're not turning your character away from interactions and relationships, just because you want to hunt. You can easily do both. If your guy is a recluse, on the other hand, I hope that you're portraying that solo-ness in an accurate manner as well.
Just some things to think about.
Quote from: "Tamarin"I understand your gripe Jarod, I really do. I went through a phase where that's all I wanted to do as well. I just hope that you're not turning your character away from interactions and relationships, just because you want to hunt. You can easily do both. If your guy is a recluse, on the other hand, I hope that you're portraying that solo-ness in an accurate manner as well.
Just some things to think about.
I guess that's just it Tamarin, the reason I get so pissed off when people tell me I'm powergaming or doing nothing but hunt is the fact that any given time I'm playing I have people finding my mind, asking me things, giving me tasks, My poor character has more shit on his plate then he knows what to do with. But all some people like to say is, "Well he hunts too much" and forget about the tons of plotlines he's fallen into.
Jarod
Quote from: "Tamarin"
The point of the game isn't to do things that you find fun.
This is the only part of your post I am disagreeing with. If I don't enjoy it and don't see enjoyment in the future, then I'm not playing it.
READ IT! IT IS A DERAILING POST!
QuoteSo who knows Dirr, but me and you will keep the faith, and grow us a revolution that is centered around realistically fun rp!
The only revolution I'm interested in is the Communist Revolution. HammerS and Sickles for ALL!
Semper Pax,
Dirr
I think there is always a danger of assuming people are twinking when you don't know their half of the story.
I used to be a big one to whine about getting pked without any emotes (open door; e; kill the something something guy), however, I learned that I was not privy to their thoughts, actions or RP that prefixed that set of commands. Sometimes, this type of action is reasonable. It may not be the purest of the pure in RP for the victim, but it is reasonable. I certainly don't expect the SWAT to engage me in roleplay when they break down my door and take my pot plants. ;-)
I think this (lack of combat emotes in ambush) is partly due to code limitations. People flee because they can die quickly. People kill quickly because people flee. It is not wrong to flee, nor is it wrong to flip the kill switch and watch it happen.
Now - if we did some cool mush-like time stop and interactive combat code - that would get us the best of both worlds. I imagine, however, it would be a lot of work.
Quote from: "Maybe42or54"Quote from: "Tamarin"
The point of the game isn't to do things that you find fun.
This is the only part of your post I am disagreeing with. If I don't enjoy it and don't see enjoyment in the future, then I'm not playing it.
If you had read the sentence or two following that, you'll see that I meant that the game -is- meant to be played for fun, but for a slightly different reason.
I can understand that Jarod wants to play the game and run around and be a hunter/adventurer instead of get involved in the intricate sensitive stuff. Certainly the Armageddon world is rich and deep and detailed and permadeath makes things exciting in that way. The thing is, to me that is playing Armageddon MUD like a hack and slash. It seems to be completely missing the point of what the game is tailored to.
There are other MUDs out there with MUCH more developed combat code and skills, races, classes, etc, for the people who want to crunch numbers. Armageddon's mechanical setup is pretty simple in comparison. If you play the game to have fun as a hunter running around and killing stuff and using skills, doesn't it follow you'd rather play somewhere else tailored to that?
If you -are- playing to be involved in plotlines, then there are other ways of going about it that will probably land you deeper into more and crazier plots. There's only so much you can do as an independent. And Armageddon's best strength, IMO, is in its intrigue and roleplaying.
Playing with a "I don't care what anyone thinks and I'm unwilling to play the game realistically if I can't be doing exactly what I want to do at any given time" attitude, to me, just seems like missing the point. A game like this is built with the intent of creative an immersive roleplaying environment where people can have fun playing their roles. To many of us just being able to play in a place like this is having the fun we want. If you'd rather ignore the environment for your own fun, wouldn't you rather play somewhere less strict?
Quote from: "Jherlen"If you -are- playing to be involved in plotlines, then there are other ways of going about it that will probably land you deeper into more and crazier plots. There's only so much you can do as an independent. And Armageddon's best strength, IMO, is in its intrigue and roleplaying.
Again, you're missing my point, re-read my prior posts please
QuotePlaying with a "I don't care what anyone thinks and I'm unwilling to play the game realistically if I can't be doing exactly what I want to do at any given time" attitude, to me, just seems like missing the point. A game like this is built with the intent of creative an immersive roleplaying environment where people can have fun playing their roles. To many of us just being able to play in a place like this is having the fun we want. If you'd rather ignore the environment for your own fun, wouldn't you rather play somewhere less strict?
That is not my attitude... AGAIN read my prior posts
Jarod
QuoteI can understand that Jarod wants to play the game and run around and be a hunter/adventurer instead of get involved in the intricate sensitive stuff. Certainly the Armageddon world is rich and deep and detailed and permadeath makes things exciting in that way. The thing is, to me that is playing Armageddon MUD like a hack and slash. It seems to be completely missing the point of what the game is tailored to.
He wants to play a hunter. I too have played a hunter previously. Role-playing a hunter is more than reasonable in the context of Zalanthas. Therefore, I can only suggest that you reconsider your argument. I'd rather 100 % of the Zalanthan PC population role-play a hunter WELL than role-play a myriad of other roles poorly (which is often the case). I've seen numerous hunters well played, but I've seen only a sparse minority of nobles/templars/magickers/etc that display a similar proficiency. Yes, they are more difficult to play, but a player new to the gameworld shouldn't be vying for such a role.
Semper Pax,
Dirr
Quote from: "Jarod550"
QuotePlaying with a "I don't care what anyone thinks and I'm unwilling to play the game realistically if I can't be doing exactly what I want to do at any given time" attitude, to me, just seems like missing the point.
That is not my attitude... AGAIN read my prior posts
Here's what you say in your prior posts, Jarod:
Quote from: "Jarod550"I play to play and have fun, I love rping with -pcs-, but the nonsense of roleplaying while you kick a training dummy with nobody around is silly.
I play games for fun, I -make- the character bend or rationalize to -my- concept of fun, because I think it would be even more boring than sitting in the tavern watching fancy emoters, to play a character I don't like.
You're here to have fun, I'm here to have fun. You -character- is a fake thing that you made up and help to make appear living with a bunch of programming code.
I do my best to role play them realistically but in ways I enjoy as the player.
By your words, this is exactly your attitude. You're obviously very passionate about the game, and that is good. You also want to improve or else you wouldn't even be posting on the board in the first place. But if you come asking questions, you can't get mad when someone gives you an answer if it isn't thet one you were expecting.
My suggestion is to consider the life of the character rather than the wants of Jarod.
-Go hunting because the character wants/needs to go hunting, not because Jarod wants to hunt.
-Sit and talk in a tavern because your character has been hunting all day and needs a break from skinning his 50th scrab, not because you hope an Imm will see you actually not killing something and give you karma.
-Spar against a training dummy because your character would use that time to improve themselves, not because you're trying to avoid getting more "bad notes" from an Imm for not RPing when people aren't around.
The bottom line is that you should do things in game because your character would do them, not because Jarod would do them. And that sometimes requires RPing when there aren't any people around. Also, if the Imms have taken time to give you notes on things you could improve upon, take them to heart instead of believing they're just drawing the wrong conclusions about your RP.
No one is asking you not to have fun, but they are asking you to find a way to have fun while realizing that some of your actions may be viewed by Imms/players as poor RP.
-LoD
By your words, this is exactly your attitude. You're obviously very passionate about the game, and that is good. You also want to improve or else you wouldn't even be posting on the board in the first place. But if you come asking questions, you can't get mad when someone gives you an answer if it isn't thet one you were expecting.
My suggestion is to consider the life of the character rather than the wants of Jarod.
-Go hunting because the character wants/needs to go hunting, not because Jarod wants to hunt.
-Sit and talk in a tavern because your character has been hunting all day and needs a break from skinning his 50th scrab, not because you hope an Imm will see you actually not killing something and give you karma.
-Spar against a training dummy because your character would use that time to improve themselves, not because you're trying to avoid getting more "bad notes" from an Imm for not RPing when people aren't around.
The bottom line is that you should do things in game because your character would do them, not because Jarod would do them. And that sometimes requires RPing when there aren't any people around. Also, if the Imms have taken time to give you notes on things you could improve upon, take them to heart instead of believing they're just drawing the wrong conclusions about your RP.
No one is asking you not to have fun, but they are asking you to find a way to have fun while realizing that some of your actions may be viewed by Imms/players as poor RP.
-LoD[/quote]
I am beyond the thinking of "Hmm will this or that get me Karma" I enjoy my character to the point where it doesn't matter, because if I had or was given karma, I wouldn't be able to use it unless my fellow was dead, which I don't wish at all.
I haven't heard a thing from the Imms in a while, that's why I purposefully put them on the spot in the ask the staff page. And so far, besides to posts I write, nobody has complained about my current characters actions or motives.
Back some characters ago I played him unrealistically, I killed rinthers cause I could by the code, I would steal repeatedly in blatent disregard for the thief bible or whatever that book is. I was your normal hack and slash "twink". With this fellow, I rationalize everything I do, whether it be who I talk to, where I travel, what I'm practicing, and if it wasn't riddled with IC info I would scan my yellow pad of paper for my current character, who isn't -even- ten days old yet in game. I have 23 pages of legal yellow pad paper filled with concepts and ideas, and people I've met along the way, tasks, people seeking this people seeking that.
In short, you don't go to the extremes I'm going with all this record keeping, brainstorming ect if you're trying to be a twink.
I've only had one negative note on this fellow and plan to eventually see him ig years down the road, and with nobody in the realms not knowing who he is.
I guess this is why I get pissed off when I am told that "You shouldn't do that, it's not realistic", when I can flip through my pad of notes and find fifteen reasons to do just that.
And to basically get back on topic, you folks don't have to like me, Jarod the player, I have my friends, I have my enemies, but until you've ran into me IG and interacted with me IG and know you have, I would just stop pointing all these fingers and claiming "bad rper!" "powergamer" ect.
Life your characters life, I'll live mine, and who knows when they will pop up in each others.
Jarod
I think most of the board members play this game for the roleplaying factor. It's not that they enjoy hunting or don't enjoy it, it's that they enjoy playing out a specific character's life. The game isn't tailored to politics, or to hunting, but it IS built for taking a character and breathing life into him.
Granted, some people don't like certain things and thus avoid them ICly. Some people can't stand being a guard. They find it boring. So they avoid making characters that would relish guard duty, since it conflicts.
So no one is saying one should enslave themselves to a task they hate because their character would do it, but at the same time, your character can't just be your own personal avatar in Zalanthas because that's missing the real point of this game. If that's what your after, hunting and chatting in another world, there are MUDs more suited to that.
But there's nothing wrong is playing a hunter, as long as you're here to "play the role a hunter named Amos" and not just to "log in and kill some scrab."
So that's where the line is, I think, between roleplaying and hack and slash. And if one is interested in hack and slash, then they DO need to go elsewhere, as this ISN'T a hack and slash game. And if one plays it that way, they hurt the gameplay of everyone else playing by a different set of rules, a more limited set.
Yet, it's hard to draw judgement on some one else unless you're an immortal and have access to all their logs.
So, quite frankly, sometimes Jarod seems like he's got things under control is a wonderful addition to the armageddon family, and sometimes he sounds like he's not really getting the gist of Armageddon. But it is impossible for us to truely know. So I intend to do just that, play my damn character and let the immortals do their job.
Quote from: "Agent_137"So, quite frankly, sometimes Jarod seems like he's got things under control is a wonderful addition to the armageddon family, and sometimes he sounds like he's not really getting the gist of Armageddon. But it is impossible for us to truely know. So I intend to do just that, play my damn character and let the immortals do their job.
Thank you
Jarod
I think it is quite possible to play truely independent characters. When I first started playing Armageddon almost all of my PC's were in clans. I played both as leaders and followers and enjoyed both roles. Eventually, times changed. I didn't have time to play regularly and I frequently played during non-peak hours. So, I started to play non-clan characters.
Playing as an independent is difficult, it is hard to get started and if you make enemies your frequently all alone. Despite the challenges, some of my favorite characters were independents. As an independent, you also get a lot of freedom. There is no boss, no restrictions on travel, and no rules. These freedoms likely appeal to quite a few players.
Here is some free advice on surviving as an independent.
1) Avoid hunting anything that is intelligent. This includes gith, nomads, mantis, and halflings. These creatures are intelligent and belong to tribes. If you attack them, expect them to react intelligently. It's quite plausable they might contact others for help, try to escape, or lure you into a trap. If they begin acting this way, don't get upset. The imms are trying to destroy all your independent hunters. They are just playing out a realistic encounter.
2) Avoid the Grey Forest. Everyone knows that the forest is filled with halflings. If you are attacked by a halfling, expect others to show up soon to help their tribemate. Then you can expect to die. Traveling through the forest is very tiring which only compounds the problems there.
3) Avoid playing as a raider until you have some talent. I usually start characters that will be raiders as hunters first. Once you are a skilled hunter, you will have much more success as a raider. Once you decide to do some raiding, think of something creative to give you an advantage. You don't want to just go around attacking everyone you see. Never fight a fair fight and you'll be much less likely to lose.
4) Only steal things worth stealing. IMO, stealing everyones knife isn't going to make your character rich nor is it risk the worth of going to jail. My last character was a burglar. It was not uncommon for him to break into an apartment, find a bunch of useless junk, and leave the apartment without taking anything. However, if I found a brick of spice, you can bet I cleaned the place out.
5) Exploring frequently uncovers death. I've lost more than one ranger by riding into some distant land that I knew nothing about or crawling into some unknown dark cave. Be careful if you go exploring, pack plenty of rations and water, and have extra time just in case you can't find a place to quit.
6) Don't hunt huge creatures. Mekillots, bahamets, and half-giants are not things you want to tangle with all alone. Avoid hunting anything that can kill you with a few good blows.
Hope some of you find this advice helpful,
-Williamson
It's been my experience that even the indies end up working for a House, even if only indirectly.
Quote from: "Jarod550"I haven't heard a thing from the Imms in a while, that's why I purposefully put them on the spot in the ask the staff page. And so far, besides to posts I write, nobody has complained about my current characters actions or motives.
Your post in Ask The Staff doesn't look like you're putting the Staff on the spot...it sounds like you actually want them to say that you're a good roleplayer in public so that you can thumb your nose at the people that don't like you.
This is just my take on this. I mean, you seem very opinionated and raise people's ire in your use of derogatory terms and with your seeming refusal to consider other people's viewpoints.
You could be a great roleplayer, but you're a troll on the GDB, plain and simple. People can hate you as a person, but love playing with your characters. Your asking the staff to comment for the whole playerbase to see on your roleplaying ability has nothing to do with how people will like/dislike you and how your portray yourself outside the game. I don't think anyone is calling you a bad roleplayer or a twink, but they're saying that in some ways, you don't quite seem to get the big picture. You get a good amount of what Arm is about, but you seem to have expectations that more experienced players do not...so they try to get you to understand the alternate view, but you refuse. Whatever. You've been told that the life of an indie is hard and not likely to get staff attention...you seem to prefer that, but for what reason, people wil assume the worst with how you portray yourself on the GDB. You seem to want Karma, but are unwilling to try a role that you can get attention and prove that you are worthy of it to the staff. Your loss.
Anyway, I think we've pounded the concept of an indie into the ground...we've given advice and received it...we've discussed the benefits and the problems. Let's not turn this thread into any more of an argument. Personally, as I've said before, I'm just trying to help. I'm only giving my opinions based on observation, and little that is said will change my opinions on the matters I've voiced my opinions on, so don't try to explain how my perceptions or opinions are wrong. Just take what I've said with the intent it's been said...as advice and help, someone else's perception so that everyone can learn.
Quote from: "spawnloser"Quote from: "Jarod550"I haven't heard a thing from the Imms in a while, that's why I purposefully put them on the spot in the ask the staff page. And so far, besides to posts I write, nobody has complained about my current characters actions or motives.
Your post in Ask The Staff doesn't look like you're putting the Staff on the spot...it sounds like you actually want them to say that you're a good roleplayer in public so that you can thumb your nose at the people that don't like you.
This is just my take on this. I mean, you seem very opinionated and raise people's ire in your use of derogatory terms and with your seeming refusal to consider other people's viewpoints.
You could be a great roleplayer, but you're a troll on the GDB, plain and simple. People can hate you as a person, but love playing with your characters. Your asking the staff to comment for the whole playerbase to see on your roleplaying ability has nothing to do with how people will like/dislike you and how your portray yourself outside the game. I don't think anyone is calling you a bad roleplayer or a twink, but they're saying that in some ways, you don't quite seem to get the big picture. You get a good amount of what Arm is about, but you seem to have expectations that more experienced players do not...so they try to get you to understand the alternate view, but you refuse. Whatever. You've been told that the life of an indie is hard and not likely to get staff attention...you seem to prefer that, but for what reason, people wil assume the worst with how you portray yourself on the GDB. You seem to want Karma, but are unwilling to try a role that you can get attention and prove that you are worthy of it to the staff. Your loss.
Anyway, I think we've pounded the concept of an indie into the ground...we've given advice and received it...we've discussed the benefits and the problems. Let's not turn this thread into any more of an argument. Personally, as I've said before, I'm just trying to help. I'm only giving my opinions based on observation, and little that is said will change my opinions on the matters I've voiced my opinions on, so don't try to explain how my perceptions or opinions are wrong. Just take what I've said with the intent it's been said...as advice and help, someone else's perception so that everyone can learn.
Okay.
Jarod
Quote from: "spawnloser"Quote from: "Jarod550"I haven't heard a thing from the Imms in a while, that's why I purposefully put them on the spot in the ask the staff page. And so far, besides to posts I write, nobody has complained about my current characters actions or motives.
Your post in Ask The Staff doesn't look like you're putting the Staff on the spot...it sounds like you actually want them to say that you're a good roleplayer in public so that you can thumb your nose at the people that don't like you.
Here here!
After reading the some of the posts and replies that are typical for the GDB, I'm sure that if I were a new player, I'd move on without ever giving the game a chance, convinced that there was some player sitting on every corner just waiting for the chance to label me a twink.
Jarod, I think we're alike in that we're more action-oriented than the bulk of the player base here. I remember there being some sort of mud personality test with four categories: social, explorer, builder and fighter (?). I suspect most people here score well in the social category whereas we want to go out and do the other three.
Remember, most people here will tell you:
- how wonderful it is to die
- how good a time they had when someone killed their character
- how they took two hours to travel five rooms, emoting all the way, and loved it
- how good solo-RP is
and so on. Socially oriented.
What I've decided is that there is still room for more active types in the game, and that the active types still can RP successfully and fit into the player base. But there's just no profit in talking about it and looking for approval on the GDB.
The key is moderation. Do different things mixed together over time and you'll be fine. A bit of exploring, a bit of foraging, a bit of hunting, some time in the city. Don't go monomatic and you won't get labeled.
Quote from: "Anonymous"I remember there being some sort of mud personality test with four categories: social, explorer, builder and fighter (?).
As an aside, the original (Bartle) temperament classifications described Killers, Achievers, Explorers and Socializers. The "refined"
Keirsey test is a little more extensive in its classification scheme.
Idependance is quite possible, and realistic.
I've played quite a few indies. With every one, I would never hunt for more than he needed. He would get enough to eat, and enough to sell to fill his waterskin. After fullfilling that he'd get outta the dangerous areas as fast as he could.
The only thing I don't like about alot of independants, is their general disregard to the realism of playing a character on a static desert world.
Quote from: "Anonymous"Jarod, I think we're alike in that we're more action-oriented than the bulk of the player base here. I remember there being some sort of mud personality test with four categories: social, explorer, builder and fighter (?). I suspect most people here score well in the social category whereas we want to go out and do the other three.
There are limits on how much action your
character can take. Like in the real world, people have their limits. You shouldn't push your character over the limits everytime, because you are bored out of your mind. It would be hard to picture someone hunting at full strength after a neardeath experience in the same day.
It wouldn't hurt for your character to sit around in the taverns, or do something that doesn't require "action", every now and then. There will always be time for action.
well, it's also important to consider just how interested you are in "Action."
If you're more interested in the action of hunting than you are in developing your character and interacting with others, then perhaps this game isn't for you. The player base isn't suited toward such a preference nor is the codebase, nor are the immortals. There are MANY hack and slash muds out there that can satisfy you better.
Also keep in mind if one group is playing by a different rule set than the rest, some people are going to get screwed.
So saying you're "action oriented" doesn't mean you're playing the game wrong. The problem is it just says you MIGHT or MIGHT NOT be playing the game wrong and fucking us all in the ass. So you can understand why we bristle at comments like that.
As I said before, unless the person is willing to explain in detail a typical zalanthian day for their character, which would likely be too IC for you to know, you can't really judge them. But if you see any suspiscious activies and habits of some one IG, please report your suspiscions to the mud account with clarity and politenes.
I wish people would reply to the entire post instead of just taking one paragraph and respond to it as though that was all that was said. To quote my previous post (re: action etc.)
Quote from: "Anonymous"The key is moderation. Do different things mixed together over time and you'll be fine. A bit of exploring, a bit of foraging, a bit of hunting, some time in the city. Don't go monomatic and you won't get labeled.
Quote from: "Anonymous"I wish people would reply ....
There. I replied. Happy?
;-)
Only read page 1 of this post then sorry... got bored.
Independance... Our dream eh? It means nothing.. Simply nothing.
Let's say you're a ranger. You managed to live on without the help of anyone. It's easy.. Since rangers can 'forage food' they can live without anyone and even never setting foot to the cities all their lives. But then? There is nothing done for the greater purpose. Even if you're not employed you always get forced to do some work for them; houses, templerate, independant merchants, kurac etc to keep the story going. Without someone needing you you're nothing, even if you are the best ranger in the known world.
So employed or unemployed, we're dependant on others to keep the story going. [joking]The only exceptions are the defilers; since they stay in a cave and train spells for the first 20 years of their lives.[/joking]
Cenghiz hits on an important flaw of independence, I think.
You _can_ survive on your own - but to what end?
You live alone - do some things - die alone with no one to mourn you, no one to remember you and in a day or two (or a couple of hours if there are gale force winds out there) no one will even find your body.
Nothing. You might as well never have existed.
On Zalanthas the only chance of immortality is to be remembered by your friends, the things you've helped do for organizations that survive individual deaths - those are the things that make for working in groups the prize it is.
As I'm thinking about this (less than halfway into my morning coffee and lacking sleep), I'm thinking that it would take an odd bugger to want to live alone in the wastes - to be truly independent. Criminals, maybe - but even they would long for a stiff drink and a m/f whore now and again. Maybe some really anti-social characters - but most would be lonely and question the meaning of their existence.
iondependence doesn't mean that you've got absolutely no friends and never tal to anyone.
Quote from: "Anonymous"- how wonderful it is to die
- how good a time they had when someone killed their character
- how they took two hours to travel five rooms, emoting all the way, and loved it
- how good solo-RP is
and so on. Socially oriented.
You're not giving social interaction a fair chance here. Take me for example.
I hate dying. I want all my characters to live forever.
If a character kills my character, regardless of how little or how much they emote while doing it, I will hate that character forever and assume the worst about their motivations, rationalizing that they are twinks. If I know who the player of the character was (and thankfully I rarely do), I'll hate the player forever too.
When I'm planning a journey I always give it plenty of time so it can occur in a realistic manner rather than speeding from Allanak to Tuluk in three minutes, and I always try to emote, but I don't always do it a lot.
I don't like solo RP and I'm bad at it. Usually I idle when I'm alone or try to contact someone who is interesting.
I LOVE social role-play.
Don't get me wrong, I've played many hunters. I've played a hunter who, after buying starting gear went out and lived in the desert forever and only came back to the cities to unload his goods. That hunter lived a long time, and he spent the majority of his time crafting, foraging, or hunting. Despite that fact, I never to my knowledge got a remark on my account that said that I was hunting too much. I did not enter cities that often, but whenever the chance for social interaction came along, I seized it. I never spam-walked by someone no matter how dangerous they looked. I always tried to engage everyone I met in conversation, as far as it was reasonable for my character to do so.
Sometimes I spent entire game sessions without using a single coded skill except maybe ride when I was playing that character, because I was too busy using the say command.
Interacting with other players is the ONLY point there is to Armageddon. Killing NPCs, while all well and good, is a secondary goal at best. Everytime you interact with an NPC, it will do the same thing. Most NPCs will not emote or use the say command, and if an NPC does so, it's only a stock emote or dialogue that will get old after you've seen it ten-thousand times. The only time an NPC you've encountered even once before will suprise you is if an immortal is animating it, and at that point you are essentially interacting with a player rather than an NPC.
A player will suprise you every time you interact with one. Unless they're spending all their time killing NPCs.
There is plenty of room for social interaction in any role.
Quote from: "EvilRoeSlade"Interacting with other players is the ONLY point there is to Armageddon. Killing NPCs, while all well and good, is a secondary goal at best. Everytime you interact with an NPC, it will do the same thing. Most NPCs will not emote or use the say command, and if an NPC does so, it's only a stock emote or dialogue that will get old after you've seen it ten-thousand times. The only time an NPC you've encountered even once before will suprise you is if an immortal is animating it, and at that point you are essentially interacting with a player rather than an NPC.
A player will suprise you every time you interact with one. Unless they're spending all their time killing NPCs.
I thought this was worth quoting.
Quote from: "EvilRoeSlade"Interacting with other players is the ONLY point there is to Armageddon.
God yes.
Quote from: "EvilRoeSlade"Interacting with other players is the ONLY point there is to Armageddon.
To quote a goblin named Grovel, "Yes? Yes? Maybe? No."
Keep in mind that Arm has a unique system of game mechanics, a well-developed world that's (mostly) Cartesian and an enticing desert theme. It can be a lot of fun to just explore the world and learn how to survive and prosper.
Quote from: "EvilRoeSlade"Interacting with other players is the ONLY point there is to Armageddon.
I quite disagree. The point in playing Armageddon is to interact with a world, people and environment rich enough in history, culture and description as to creatively play out the life of your character. To say that interacting with players is the only point to Armageddon is the same as saying interacting with people is the only point to life.
And that also is not true.
There are plenty of characters that would hardly ever interact with another PC and be a complete, well played character.
-LoD
I think, LoD, that ERS was saying that it's no fun to play without interacting with others.
Quote from: "spawnloser"I think, LoD, that ERS was saying that it's no fun to play without interacting with others.
A more accurate statement by ERS would be, "For me, interaction with characters is the only point of Armageddon." To assume that it is the same for every other person playing this game is a bit presumptuous and small minded. Must everyone also enjoy the characters he enjoys, do the things he does, play the way he plays?
He mentions that he'll hate a character and a player (if he knows them) that kills one of his PC's. Is that good? Is that what everyone should do? I was objecting the wide sweeping statement of any arguing what one single POINT of Armageddon is. The point of any group game is to enjoy yourself while staying true to the rules and spirit of the game.
One could play a hermit, sorcerer, hunter, tribal, exile or any number of roles that have a very limited amount of interaction and still have a great time interacting with the environment and overcoming personal goals. Maybe not everyone would enjoy the me vs. the world challenge without having constant PC-PC interaction, but some do.
-LoD
Indies are great! You don't have to be totally polarized about it. Some characters join Merchant/Mercenary houses for a few years and then move on. Other Clan require lifetime comitments. Some characters are going to be devoted to one thing or another, other characters can't stay sober long enough to hold down a job. Race, ethnic, mutation, and spice preference can also dictate weather your character remains indie or goes into a house (Probably eventually leading something).
ERS has played this game longer than I have and has gone through one character for every twelve of my own. We have very different styles and opinions, but I respect his thoughts on the matter of indies. If he's coming across a bit strong on some points, it's because he's been stuck in Allanak too long and has become grumpy.
-Yc