After noticing that the difficulty for an indie in Allanak was (perhaps sharply) raised recently, I have to ask. What sort of purpose does the staff have in mind when they do this to Allanak and never do it to Tuluk?
Are you actively discouraging independents down there?
Are you trying to give hardcore players a good mix of difficulty choices?
Do you keep in mind how difficult it is for a player to survive in each of the areas?
I'm not irritated, but I'm curious.
Who says it was the staff that did it to allanak?
The question applies anyway. Besides, it's been indirectly caused by a swarm of hunters who can't survive down south...
Quote from: "Kalden"The question applies anyway. Besides, it's been indirectly caused by a swarm of hunters who can't survive down south...
wait, is this because of the lack of animals in the nakki sands?
The biggest difference between Allanak and Tuluk is hunting is much easier in Tuluk. Outside of that, the Allanaki templerate tends to be a little more aggressive, and the Allanaki independent PCs tend to be more criminal in nature.
The hunting piece makes perfect sense. Tuluk is a much lusher and less harsh environment to live in. Allanak is just a big ugly desert. That is how they are supposed to be. Due to the fact that many independents are hunters or gathers, this drops the population of Allanaki independents a fair amount. Hunting and gathering in Allanak is extremely risky.
That said, I think Allanak makes up for what it lacks in hunting with potential for criminals. Allanak is pretty well setup for criminals. Corruption in Allanak runs pretty deep. If you want to be an independent in Allanak, setup a criminal, finding a nice 'rinth bar, and sit down. You will run into some criminal enterprise sooner or later. The biggest problem with criminal enterprises is that they are somewhat separated from Allanak proper and so it can seem as if there are fewer criminals then there are. The other problem is that the militia works in waves. Some times they let small criminal operations go unchecked and a strong PC run underground operation really starts to build up steam and pick up players. The flips side is that every now and then a Templar or militiaman sets out to tear apart the criminal infrastructure and with a few easily placed informants is able to topple most of the PC criminal organizations in Allanak. If the militia really want you dead, you pretty much are banned from Allanak proper. There is no way to 'slip by' unnoticed when there are only two bars in Allanak proper to go to.
I don't think it is a terrible state of affairs. Some people just like Tuluk for what it is. I personally like the open brutality and corruption of Allanak and so stick there. I don't mind that are two different places with two different tastes. Honestly, if you like the harsh life and think that Allanak is the place to be for it, then just make Allanaki characters. There is no competition to see which city state has the longest lived characters. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if Tuluk was a fairy kingdom so long as Allanak stays harsh.
Quote from: "Kalden"Besides, it's been indirectly caused by a swarm of hunters who can't survive down south...
You know, it's really hard to discuss anything meaningful if you can't mention what's even happening, and it's really silly to jump to conclusions like that either way.
Lets just let IC stuff stay IC and not gripe?
QuoteLets just let IC stuff stay IC and not gripe?
I wasn't referring to anything IC. I'm simply saying that the North might attract a larger pbase, allowing it to dominate the conflict between the two city-states.
Either way, eh, I don't reallly care. I'm happy in Allanak. I just wonder why Tuluk is kept so easy.
QuoteThat said, I think Allanak makes up for what it lacks in hunting with potential for criminals. Allanak is pretty well setup for criminals. Corruption in Allanak runs pretty deep. If you want to be an independent in Allanak, setup a criminal, finding a nice 'rinth bar, and sit down. You will run into some criminal enterprise sooner or later.
I've had plenty of experience with that, yeah. And I'm very happy. But, as you pointed out, supporting a stronger criminal pbase simply makes the south even harsher. :wink:
I said I don't really care, but I would like to see Tuluk made harsher or Allanak given some small game to hunt after (besides scrab ... and tarantula).
Just because you can't see them...
There is SOME small game near Allanak.
There is some small game in Allanak to hunt, but I feel Allanak could use a upgrade in terms of the ecosystem around it. Not necessarily to make it a hunter's paradise or anything like that, just a little more interesting ecology, i.e., more small creatures mixed with the dangerous ones, and a more interactive environment.
Didn't Halaster say there are more Pcs in Allanak?
Who needs hunting anyway? Gets people killed.
Kalden make Tuluk more dangerous!
- Destory pyramids and His Faithfuls and let magickers stay in the City.
- Destroy the large plains and tribals within, then make those land more vast and full of scrab and that kind of large agreesive beast.
- Make a lot of jerk PCs, that already exist in Tuluk society whom are not plaied because of various reasons.
- Convience players to consider, there are elves in Tuluk and they can be as ugly as some 'rinthy.
- Convience people to play in old city ruins.
Then you will have a very similar place to 'nak.
And Kalden, I am sure you knew all above before I write. "I hate Tuluk threads" begin to make me feel defensive, and I do not want to be in that mood. If you want Tuluk to change.. Well.. I guess we all have some wishes.
Edit: Remove of some daily Turkish expression which can cause misunderstanding.
Of course, Tuluk being such an easy place to be independent is ultimately a detriment to their society, since that leaves their Houses unmanned. Reason #147 that Allanak will eventually take over (again).
Quote from: "ale six"Lets just let IC stuff stay IC and not gripe?
I think the original author, Kalden, made it more than evident that he was far from "griping" as you insist when he said:
QuoteI'm not irritated, but I'm curious.
Inquiring into aspects of the game is not griping. Debating and disagreeing on a discussion board is not griping either.
In fact, I don't recall the last, authentic, gripe I've seen on this discussion board except, well, yours, ale six (griping about people who aren't even griping in the first place.)
Quote from: "Gaare"Then you will have a very similar place to 'nak.
But we
don't want them to be the same.
QuoteBut we don't want them to be the same.
This makes sense. If anything, Allanak and Tuluk are counterculture to
each other. They're deliberately gaining their own identity from being
the exact opposite of the other if you look closely at each doc in General
Information.
Why does everyone try to make everything a balance issue in this game?
Like Halaster said...they're -supposed- to be different. Easier...harder...that doesn't even matter. They're different environments. Choose the one that more suitably enhances your play.
MY only issue with Tuluk hasn't been that it's -easy- (because it's got it's own challenges, really), it's been that through my (admittedly pretty limited, due to this reason) experience, -everyone- is trying to play somewhat the same character there. OOOOOH! I'M SUBTLE! I LOVE YOU BUT ACTUALLY I'M DANGEROUS! YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW IT!
That's seriously the mentality I saw -everywhere- and I got sick of it.
At the same time, Tuluk and Allanak are not supposed to be polar opposites either.
For every contrived difference you shove down my throat, I can name you ten similatiries.
The fact remains, both are CITY-STATES ruled by SORCERER-KINGS who wield their powers through TEMPLARS wearing ROBES that differentiate their rank and title, all speak TATLUM and they have STRANGE POWERS.
I think it's good that the two city-states have their own special flair, but after a while it gets to a point that people are trying to make them different for no other reason than ... just to make them different. Make them different, fine, but don't deliberately set every single facet of Tuluki and Allanaki culture up specifically to be completely the opposite of the other. There should be similarities. There were similarities of the ancient Greek city-states even amongst those who opposed one another, as with ancient Egyptian cities and on and on.
Why not? That seems to fit their propaganda mindset, actually.
Interested why you posted that (again, as you always do) Armaddict, as you admit yourself that you don't really know what you're talking about!
Each of the characters my own ran into yesterday, within the space of a few hours, were ENTIRELY different to each other. People ranging from the low caste criminal to the high caste fancy pants, and where the caste was the same, as totally different as I am to you.
Anyway, as to Tuluk being easy, that's just ridiculous! Allanak is 'easy' if you have a nice aide and don't ever do or say anything in the slightest bit risky and sit in a tavern all day. If anything, from my experiece Tuluk is the HARDER place to play in as things are much less open and black and white there, and it's far less obvious where you stand or what's really going on. The challenge, mindset, style and place is entirely different to Allanak - as it should be.
There may be more little animals to hunt in the North, but that alone doesn't make it easier unless that's all you choose to do with your character. If you want a more difficult hunt, go and try and capture a bahamet or something.
You're presented with a choice - if you choose to make it easy for yourself, fine, but then be careful with blanket statements.
Quote-everyone- is trying to play somewhat the same character there. OOOOOH! I'M SUBTLE! I LOVE YOU BUT ACTUALLY I'M DANGEROUS! YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW IT!
I don't try to play my character that way at all.
QuoteInterested why you posted that (again, as you always do) Armaddict, as you admit yourself that you don't really know what you're talking about!
Because my opinion hasn't changed. I have played in the north, but don't often, because of reasons I've stated, as you mentioned, many times before. Yes, I did say that I don't have much experience in the north, but I didn't say I didn't know what I was talking about. This is the reason I don't play in the north...I'm not downtalking here, simply stating my opinion on that matter. Thank you for acknowledging my opinion.
However, the point wasn't that I don't like Tuluk, so let's try not to shift focus to that, please?
My point was that in this particular case, this is kind of being made into a balance issue. The north is different. It's easier for some people than others. It's easier than Allanak in some ways, and harder in others. The problem is that if you are talking about going out and hunting by yourself and making money, hell yeah it's easier. But to make an impact in the political scene or do some other goal of a specific character, it will be perhaps more difficult.
I think if you're talking about the north being -easy-, you're probably talking about only one aspect of it and forgetting about others. I'd suggest trying to play a character there with a different 'focus' or general playstyle, and the situation may change.
Or, you may end up like me, and decide the north as it is is not for you.
I'm seriously disappointed in this thread. I thought it was going to be all about how the Gol Krathu was an easy lay.
Oh, something on topic.
I had a character that made a pretty good living picking stuff up off of dead bodies in Tuluk and a ways outside (before succumbing to a doubtless similar fate to the people I'd been scavenging from). Allanak doesn't appear to be any different. Having spent around a year in each of them, I can't say I see what all the fuss is about.
Also, perhaps this isn't the case, but my perception when I read the posts about how "easy" Tuluk was, what I'm getting from that is that you're talking about code, not roleplaying. Why is it important if it's easier to kill mob X, Y, and Z in the north than it is to kill mob A, B, and C in the south? Or if chopping wood is easier than hacking obsidian which is easier than panning for spice? If all you're concerned about is how codedly easy it is to perform a few actions, you're pretty much missing out on all the fun aspects of roleplaying.
Quote from: "It's not 'so easy'"Tuluk is the HARDER place to play in as things are much less open and black and white there, and it's far less obvious where you stand or what's really going on.
Sometimes I feel like people say these things because they had one experience or read it on the board and make it sound like every day in Tuluk is the end of an M. Night Shayamalalala book.
My experience, repeatedly, is that Tuluk is much easier to live in than Allanak. In Tuluk you can keep your head down and generally avoid trouble. In Allanak it's been a guaranteed to me that some Templar or noble will stick their nose in your business if you are sitting at the bar and try to screw you over. That coupled with the more difficult desert survival requirements make Allanak much harder to play in.
Personally, I like that. I like that I can play in different places and have varying character experiences in terms of survival and the like. What I don't like about Tuluk is the ways it feels like it is redundant to Allanak in a way that only thins things out for both cities. But having a hunter in Tuluk you can login with and go kill some tregils is relaxing in it's own right and I think it has a place in the game every bit as much as the typical Allanak desert survival struggle.
Quote from: "Kalden"After noticing that the difficulty for an indie in Allanak was (perhaps sharply) raised recently, I have to ask. What sort of purpose does the staff have in mind when they do this to Allanak and never do it to Tuluk?
No idea what you mean by this really. There have been no significant changes that I think would affect these sorts of things recently, so I can't really answer the question. If you could be more specific, that'd help. If it's too IC sensitive to post, email me.
Quote from: "Kalden"
Are you actively discouraging independents down there?
Nope.
Quote from: "Kalden"
Are you trying to give hardcore players a good mix of difficulty choices?
We don't set them up with "difficulty level" in mind.
Quote from: "Kalden"
Do you keep in mind how difficult it is for a player to survive in each of the areas?
A little. But keep in mind we don't necessarily take the approach of "difficulty" when designing an area. We come up with ideas, and we implement those ideas. There are little critters, and then there are big critters that eat the little ones. If they're too difficult for you to kill, that doesn't mean we intended it that way. We just set the area up to fit with the geography we wanted for that part of the world. We don't typically design an area specifically to cater to "easy" or "hard", we just make it. Though, there are some balancing issues we consider and so there's usually something fairly small you can hunt in most areas (though not all). But we're not trying to make "zones" that are designed for certain levels of ability, nor do we try to make parts of the world balanced or even.
Armaddict was right when he said that things aren't really intended to be balanced. They just are. You have roles (and parts of the world) with varying power, influence, and difficulty, and you choose a role to play based on what you feel like playing.
I actually haven't found Allanak difficult at all, tbh. I came back to game,
wandered right into a job and haven't been in any serious trouble at all.
My pc has encountered templars that didn't seem to really care what I
was up to. One was even helpful. I actually felt like everyone was being
strangely accomodating.
QuoteDidn't Halaster say there are more Pcs in Allanak?
The only thing I could be bothered about is more PCs being attracted to Tuluk because it's easy, and if that's not the case, then it's all good.
I still would like to see Tuluk harder. Rougher. I've had over two shady characters that survived to like...30 days there, and didn't even particularly want to live. They were also bored out of their mind 90% of the time. *shrugs*
QuoteJust because you can't see them...
There is SOME small game near Allanak.
Kinda takes away the point, doesn't it? There's nothing for a newbie hunter to hunt.
I suppose, yeah, they can just join the Houses or the Byn...Armageddon is, after all, a House game when it seems to come right down to it.
I wish there was more competition for power among Houses.
(EDIT: Also, if anyone's played an indie hunter in Allanak from newbie onward could you post about it?)
Quote from: "Kalden"I still would like to see Tuluk harder. Rougher. I've had over two shady characters that survived to like...30 days there, and didn't even particularly want to live. They were also bored out of their mind 90% of the time.
People need to understand what they are joining when they make a character in Tuluk. They aren't joining a mature and full grown city-state running at one hundred percent. On the contrary, I believe much of the area will be in a state of cautious rennovation on all levels for quite some time.
The populace has likely sharply declined since the war, and only one or two generations have had a chance to rebuild those numbers. The city is still fresh with new buildings, roads, offices, etc...and everything is just beginning to settle into its own skin. To expect the deep, dirty and ravenous beast that is Allanak in a battered northlands still showing a few economic and social bruises is going to leave you wanting.
Make a character with the setting in mind if you don't want to be disappointed. My guess is that too many of the people that find themselves disappointed with the play in the northlands do so because they created characters with the intention of playing in a city and environment with the maturity of Allanak (the city, not its individual people).
-LoD
Quote from: "Kalden"
I still would like to see Tuluk harder. Rougher. I've had over two shady characters that survived to like...30 days there, and didn't even particularly want to live. They were also bored out of their mind 90% of the time. *shrugs*
To further what LoD wrote.
If you had a "shady character" who survived over 30 days and was bored of their mind 90% of your time - you weren't doing a lot were you?
Tuluk has a significantly different culture -and it is still in a nascent form that is taking shape. There is a lot of room for new organizations and even for people to make a significant impact on the future of how Tuluk will take shape.
One of the interesting aspects of bards is that they are shaping Tuluk's culture with every moment that they are logged in (be it for the better or worse). There are other artisans in Tuluk who have left lasting legacies behind even after their characters die. Some other long lived characters have managed to leave buildings behind... others have streets named after them.
If you have a character and you are 'bored 90% of your time' - honestly, I suggest finding a way to die and fast - and who knows, maybe in the course of trying to die you'll have some fun. Clearly the role you thought up isn't right for the environment and it is time to move on. Bored characters lead to more bored characters because they are so damned boring to interact with.
I do not believe that Tuluk needs to be 'rougher' per se - I just think it needs to have it's "scary" factor notched up a few degrees. Tuluk has a dark side that rarely surfaces and I, for one, would like to see more of it.
Tuluk will continue to grow and mature and as it does so, we'll see what shape it takes in the end. Now is the best time to get in on the molding of the future citystate if you have an interest in leaving a lasting legacy within the game world.
Quote from: "marko"I do not believe that Tuluk needs to be 'rougher' per se - I just think it needs to have it's "scary" factor notched up a few degrees. Tuluk has a dark side that rarely surfaces and I, for one, would like to see more of it.
Tuluk will continue to grow and mature and as it does so, we'll see what shape it takes in the end. Now is the best time to get in on the molding of the future citystate if you have an interest in leaving a lasting legacy within the game world.
Yours and LoD's posts are a couple of the more interesting and reasoned ideas I have heard in a time in all this "I hate Tuluk" debate. Especially the last paragraph here. Good food for thought.
QuoteIf you had a "shady character" who survived over 30 days and was bored of their mind 90% of your time - you weren't doing a lot were you?
Neither was anyone else. I was available for what I could do, and hardly anyone was hiring.
I can't be a one-man army when I'm playing a pickpocket or burglar. With an assassin, yes, but it so happened that there were no capable assassins during either of these times(the Templarate kept wanting to hire burglars and pickpockets to assassinate people - doable? perhaps). I know this - my characters knew plenty of what was going on(I have no compunctions against shadowing people into their apartments, especially when I'm that bored), and I can tell you that it wasn't much or it was EXTREMELY well-covered up.
QuoteTuluk has a significantly different culture -and it is still in a nascent form that is taking shape. There is a lot of room for new organizations and even for people to make a significant impact on the future of how Tuluk will take shape.
Do you play in Tuluk?
There was nobody to play off of, and normal characters don't have enough power to really start shit, especially alone.
I'm still a little uncertain precisely what is meant by "easier" in this particular thread. Some have suggested it means the hard-coded available combat opponents are relatively few and usually non-lethal to the inexperienced -- and readily destroyed by the modestly skilled. Others have suggested it means relatively few "powerful" PC's messing with you. There are likely a couple of other possibilities. Still, PC's seem to die "up there" about as often as "down yonder" in/around Allanak.
The area around Tuluk IS relatively fertile, water is relatively accessible, and small (usually non-lethal) critters are relatively common -- compared to the inhospitible desert around Allanak. On the other hand, there are virtually the same number of "dangerous" critters and humanoids in the vicinity.
The "powerful" PC's in and around Tuluk are not usually the bumbling in-your-face bloody screaming hack'em'ups (DON'T HURT ME) that are more common in Allanak -- but this is by the intended nature of those two political landscapes. Tuluk has also had fewer numbers of "powerful" PC's in the grand cycle of things, true. They go about things in a markedly different fashion on the surface -- though very similar beneath.
The "seedy side" of Tuluk is less well defined in terms of location and expectations, though I think that is both developing and has room to develop further.
Overall, though, what I'm hearing is that Tuluk is in fact -harder- to play in, if in some ways easier to survive in. To me that smells of a challenge.
-Savak
I played an indie hunter in Allanak. This is what I did.
I rode my kank to the Tablelands, Red Desert, gortok canyons, and even the grasslands. Yes, I was an ALLANAKI, but I did not limit myself to the desolate Vrun Driath.
I pulled in animals from all across the known world. I even got rich!
So my point is, if you play an indie hunter in Allanak you don't have to limit yourself to scrabs all the time.
Some tips I can give you guys is taking advantage of Luir's as a reststop. The ride from your southern home all the way up to the Gol Krathu is pretty excruciating. Make good use of daylight. If you rode up there and stabled your kank and it's still early morning, then you've just wasted 20 stabling sids when you could've been out in the grasslands hunting. "Rest" your kank. Carry plenty of water. Make sure you actually have a coded home in 'nak to store your countless possessions (yes, as an indie, I had way too much stuff.) Ride quickly and efficiently. If you dawdle, you'll find yourself lost far from home. Think of hunts up in Gol Krathu as fast business trips: you head in, do your shit, then leave.
Lastly, don't dawdle in Tuluk. Remember, you are only up there for a business trip. Don't harrass the locals or you'll find yourself...lost far from home forever.
I like both for their differences.
I don't really see one as being "easier" than the other. And I disagree with what someone said about all the pcs in Tuluk being the same, I've seen just as many different and colorful characters there as I have in Allanak.
The statement about folks just having to "keep their heads down" and they won't be bothered is entirely untrue. I've had just as many pcs that tried to avoid trouble get dragged into it in Tuluk as I have in Allanak.
I like to switch around alot though. I play Tuluki, 'Nakki, 'rinthi, tribals, and all sorts of shit. Still have yet to play a Red Stormer though, probably because I fear ending up solo-rping more than I have with some of the others.
I think those who have some certain picture set in their heads about one city-state or another and only play in one for the most part need to toss aside their misconceptions and "really" give the others a chance.
This is the sort of feeling I get from some people:
"I played in <insert city-state here> once and everyone was the same/I missed out on the conflict/got picked on excessively/don't like the quality of rp (because we all know the players who prefer one aren't as good of roleplayers as the other)/it was too easy/it was too hard/etc... so I -know- that is the way things are and I'm never making pcs there."
Hooray for easy travel!
I hate it. This is derailment and I apologize, but I'd like to see traveling that far be at least a -little- more of a deal than spontaneous decisions to go out and find suitable hunting game.
A hunting trip? Plan it out! Sweet, I'm going to take a ride to Luir's, stay the night, and then hit the tablelands. I heard the hunting there is exquisite. I'll be back in a week or two.
What I'm saying is...code-wise, travel like this is easy, but really, I'd rather see it be more of an obstacle or a role-play booster rather than a "I can't find scrab and my kank can go anywhere" sort of thing. Most hunting 'trips' into other regions don't even really require any preparation or foresight, which makes it more boring to me.
Just my opinion, sorry for the derailment.
It is all very misleading in the north.
Sure, you get tired of killing Tembos and all these little things so you think you are awesomely skilled and you go against something a little bigger than a tembo and suddenly you scream, "Oh my gawd! It's tearing my stomach open!"
You walk to close to a few trees and you die.
You see Santa Gith's Helpers, you die.
All very misleading.
Quote from: "Manhattan"all this advice on how to be a successful indie hunter from allanak
:cries.
That's so . . . not twinkish . . . but . . . hack and slashy.
Uhg. Makes me feel icky inside, just thinking of it.
I play a different game, but I won't go so far as to deny you your game.
I read the original post as talking about the two different enviroments, and how Tuluk seems to be easier from the perspective of an indy hunter. I don't think the OP's entirely off-base, if that was indeed what they meant. The Northlands simply have a better-developed ecology, full of little game for newbie hunters to go after. The area around Allanak, on the other hand, seems to populated only by a bunch of man-eating super-beetles whos only sustinance is newbie corpses.
Vrun Driath wouldn't suffer from a more realistic food-chain.
Quote from: "Kalden"I said I don't really care, but I would like to see Tuluk made harsher or Allanak given some small game to hunt after (besides scrab ... and tarantula).
There is some smaller game in the south.
Quote from: "hcwalker"There is some small game in Allanak to hunt, but I feel Allanak could use a upgrade in terms of the ecosystem around it. Not necessarily to make it a hunter's paradise or anything like that, just a little more interesting ecology, i.e., more small creatures mixed with the dangerous ones, and a more interactive environment.
It's a desert.... how much crap is supposed to be around it?
:?:
Jarod
Quote from: "Jarod550"Quote from: "hcwalker"There is some small game in Allanak to hunt, but I feel Allanak could use a upgrade in terms of the ecosystem around it. Not necessarily to make it a hunter's paradise or anything like that, just a little more interesting ecology, i.e., more small creatures mixed with the dangerous ones, and a more interactive environment.
It's a desert.... how much crap is supposed to be around it?
:?:
Jarod
Several moderately sized creatures around Allanak will hunt down and kill humans. These creatures eat meat, and maybe even vegitation, although there is a lack of it. Unless these animals are living off people who wander into the desert alone, there is something smaller that they are actively hunting and eating. Most people would like to see this food chain represented better: more jozhal around that act as prey to tarantulas and other small creatures.
What Allanak really needs is gigantic leeches.
And leaping beasts of doom.
Vrun Driathian anakores that leap out from under the sands with scythes and decapitate. Animals that make kanks go crazy.
In return to keep things balanced, Tuluk's halflings will start employing heat-seeking missiles. And anyone not killed by these is clearly a magicker which the Templarate will subsequently put to death.
Brilliant!
:P Indie Hunters are my favorite character type. There are more hunters in the north, perhaps because those hunters are specifically focused on hunting game animals.
I would point out though that Southern hunters do have certain topographical advantages to make up for they're lack of trees and furry critters.
-There's a huge sea to take your skimmer out on.
-Obsidian, Glass, Salt and Spice, and other more rare materials are avaliable to the industrious grebber.
-Arrows, bows and a plethora of craftable items can be gathered from the land.
-There are quitsafe rooms spread around for the the most adventuresome waste dwellers.
-Weather IS a factor, and must be considered an ever present threat to survival.
-Yes, you can Roast Ocotollo in the southern sands!
Yellowcactus
I don't know...