Armageddon General Discussion Board

The other thread with Vanth got me to thinking.

How are those 2 compared?
Explain to me.

Quote
Karma is simply a measure of trust that the staff members have in a
given player's:

  - Degree of maturity and responsibility as a role-player, as evidenced
    by playing roles 'realistically.'

  - Knowledge of the game world, and an appreciation of the way in which
    the various races, guilds, and so on, interact.

  - Role-playing skill, as evidenced by role-playing in such a way as to
    show that they are really involved in the game world, and also
    enriching the game world for other players.

Ac, with your infinite wisdom. Explain to me the complexities of the Karma thing.

Seeing how those three are pretty damn easily attained.

Damn easily attained... He said it people..

That is exactly the reason I dislike the karma system.. People attain it to easily, and the ones who might just deserve it are left in the dark, tell me I'm wrong.

-RM

Quote from: "RunningMountain"Damn easily attained... He said it people..

That is exactly the reason I dislike the karma system.. People attain it to easily, and the ones who might just deserve it are left in the dark, tell me I'm wrong.

-RM

I think you are wrong.

If you really want to build up karma, play consistently well in a role that an Imm will keep an eye on. There are not so many people playing this game that you won't be noticed.

I don't think Karma should be levelled. I think it should be in attributes (sorta) where the imms say "We think you will be good for this area of Armageddon." and then give me access to the class/guild/whatever.

Quote from: "RunningMountain"Damn easily attained... He said it people..

That is exactly the reason I dislike the karma system.. People attain it to easily, and the ones who might just deserve it are left in the dark, tell me I'm wrong.

-RM

Well, good point! I know I deserve more Karma heh..   Anyway, as it is told before, Karma is just for making things easier for IMMs. If you want a role, it takes a few weeks at most to recieve result of a special application.

I believe it has also been mentioned that if you feel you deserve karma, you can e-mail the mud and request a review of your account.  I recieved a raise by doing just that myself once, so I am a testiment that it works.  Just ask nicely. :)

Okay, to reply to some of the answers so far.

Some people don't ask nicely, they just want to play the game, and in fact probably do not care about karma at all, therefore they play for the enjoyment of themselves and others.  To tell people to:
Go try and get it" "
"Go play a role that you know imms will watch"
"E-mail the imms and ask for a review."

These sorts of things aren't what you should have to do to be noticed and watched, even if you play loners all the time.  By my count per wizlist Armageddon has 4 overlords, 9 highlords, and 14 Storytellers, so we have a total of 27 staff right now, that may or may not be active, but that is according to the wizlist today.  In my opinion that is a damn lot of immortals to watch people's roleplay, and to make decisions on whether they can be "trusted" to play a certain role or not.  The problem? They are all too busy with their little high-fantasy plots that involve about 4 players in their clan, and that's all they care about. That is just my opinion on why a lot of people get overlooked.

Karma to me is just an excuse to reward certain players who have appeased and played with certain imms, if this wasn't true, then the twenty or so players I believe deserve it would have it.  It's not complicated, it's just that simple to me, if someone deserves it, they should get it, but there a lot of good players whom do not care for it and these are the ones that get overlooked. Hence making the system quite flawed, and needing to be changed.

-RM

Yeah, Heaven forbid a player have to actually email the staff to ask for a review of their karma options.  It's an outrage.

That's not how I mean you to take it CRW, I mean that some people prefer to just play, not ask for reviews of how they are playing or if they deserve karma, hence I said these types of people do not necessarily care about it.  Get it?

-RM

Quote from: "RunningMountain"*stuff*

That's a load of crap.

27 imms on staff you say?  How many of those are on at any particular time?

Lets break it down:  Call it three major timezones:  Australian/East, US, Europe/Eastern Europe.  Us gets the bulk of it, but lets say:


19 US staff
4 Euro
4 Asia


Now lets work in those old fogies who exclusively deal with code, ginka, website etc (Morgenes, Tiernan, Tenebrius, Brixus, Saikun, and the guy you DONT want involved with your character, Nessalin):

I think most of those guys are US so now you're at:

13 US
4 Euro
4 Asia

Now take into account that these imms also have RL responsibilities (work, school, family) so lets say they're only able to spend 8 hours a day focused entirely on the mud every OTHER day (8P)

6 1/2  US staff
2 Euro
2 Asia

Not even taking into account leaves of absenses, you're not talking about that many active imms for every player.  At the best of times, 1 for every 10 pcs.

Now consider most if not all of these imms have clan responsibilities.  You're probably right when you guess they're going to focus their attention on pcs in their clans.  Maybe thats what you mean by high-fantasy.

That said, characters that survive AND are well played will receive karma.  You can have the best character concept, the most original and descriptive emotes, an absolute mastery of the ~@#%^'s and be as realistic as one can.  If your character is dead in a couple of days, chances are you wont see shit.  On the flip side if you live for a year, but don't do anything more than hunt/craft emoteless or stare forward at the bar, you probably wont get any karma either.

Best way to get karma?  Communicate with your imm(s).
Next best is play well and play long.  For all their talk, the staff isn't clairvoyant.

With as many players as there are, it's not that surprising that some get overlooked from time to time.  Especially those that play unclanned characters.   It's not a perfect system but it doesn't seem like it's that bad either.  Given the choice between making minor fixes and scrapping it and replacing with a different system, I'd prefer the former.  Maybe I'd have a different opinion if I heard of a great alternative suggestion.   Couldn't hurt to "idea" it if anyone had one of those.

Quote from: "RunningMountain"Some people don't ask nicely, they just want to play the game, and in fact probably do not care about karma at all, therefore they play for the enjoyment of themselves and others. To tell people to:
"Go try and get it."
"Go play a role that you know imms will watch."
"E-mail the imms and ask for a review."

These sorts of things aren't what you should have to do to be noticed and watched, even if you play loners all the time.

What should you have to do to get karma/be noticed? You say that karma is attained too easily, and yet you argue that it should be easier. I may be naive, but I can't think of any other way (at least for the most part) that players get karma other than the ways listed above, except playing independents and being lucky enough to catch the attention of the imms.  Those players that attained their "so easily gotten karma" did it through one of these methods, regardless of whether or not that was their intention/goal.

We're all here to play the game, RunningMountain. Some of us care about the karma, some of us don't. Those that do will go looking for it, and for those that don't (whom you seem to be pleading your case for) there isn't a problem.

I think some of what RM said is true, though it was put too cynically for my taste. Unclanned roles simply don't get noticed as much as clanned ones, but I am hoping the non-affiliated imms can begin to change that. However, saying that the imms are worried about their clans, and the players within those clans as a criticism makes no sense to me. That's their job. Certain clanned roles really need their imms involved or it sucks. So, I put my hope in the unclanned imms to snoop their little hearts out, comment, and provide karma where needed. The challenge being that I'm guessing it's much trickier for the unclanned imms to stay on top of all the unclanned players, versus a clanned imm, worrying about a controlled number of players. But maybe I'm wrong about that... I don't know the ratios.

I also agree that sometimes asking for a review can help. If that's too much trouble, stick with what you got. The non-karma guilds and races are better anyway. ;)

Quote from: "RunningMountain"
Some people don't ask nicely, they just want to play the game, and in fact probably do not care about karma at all, therefore they play for the enjoyment of themselves and others.

I don't see the problem.  If you want to just play the game, just play the game. If you don't want to communicate with staff, just play the game.  If you don't care about karma, just play the game.  If you want to have sorcerer karma in 8 years, just play the game.

Karma is over-rated.  The best roles require 0 karma.  You can absolutely have a blast with the regular races and classes.  Some people love playing desert elves, some people love playing elementalists, but a lot of people that have karma still play 0 karma characters.  I have a little karma, but probably more than 1/2 of my characters are still just regular joes.  The game is fully playable without karma.  

If you don't want to deal with getting karma, you don't have to, it will come to you sooner or later.  If you want to get karma faster, there are some good tips in this thread to help you.


Angela Christine

I understand all of what you are trying to say, I am just adding my opinion, and I am always right.  There is no problem for me AC, I'm just one of the mundane and I like it that way.  I am speaking for others.

-RM

The game is free. Imm positions are volunteer. There is no incentive to take time from their lives to work on, improve, and run the game except for the love of it. If it is watching certain plotlines (or whatever) that keeps them here, keeping the MUD going, then that's fine by me. If the alternative isn't enjoyable for the staff, then we'd be without a staff. I'd much rather have 0 karma than no one moderating the place.

I don't believe the karma system is unfair. Immortals cannot be
everywhere at once so give them a little break. You can also
special app characters anyways, and I've never had a special
app not be approved, though I may just be lucky (2 total). If
they handed out karma like hotcakes though then we'd have a
pile of half-giant/desert-elf/magickers/psionicists, I'm sure the
want to limit people to mundane classes is part of it, however
anyone who really wants to play something abnormal can special
app it. I'm sure they realize some people who are good for a
particular role don't get karma when an occasional one who is
bad for it does.

Also, for the record I received my first karma when being a
kadius hunter and emoting skinning well (I think that's what got
them to recognize me) and second karma because I had well
over forty-six characters (most lived an hour or two, but got
much better later on) and I special app'd a particular mage that
got kinda well known and (I think) kinda contributed well to the
game's environment.

In summary, it isn't a perfect system but it's the best we got, and
there are always special applications.

- Ktavialt

Quote from: "Angela Christine"
Karma is over-rated.  The best roles require 0 karma.

Angela Christine

That is true.

I agree that the idea of "trust" is kind of nebulous when it comes to rewards, but as people have said, there's ways around it if you want to play that mul sorcerer.

The player/staff interaction on Armageddon is what sets it apart from every game (MUD or not) that I've ever played. If you as a player aren't willing to communicate with the staff on any given issue, even regarding special apps/your karma/whatever, you're ignoring a truly unique aspect of this game.

I don't post often, but I wanted to share with all of you a message about karma a staff member told me once, in regards to getting it:

"People who are able to release the RL beliefs and embrace Zalanthian beliefs while playing a consistent character get the most karma."

And that's all there really is. I think that quote is so good I don't even want to tarnish it with an explanation.

Quote from: "adgohan"I don't post often, but I wanted to share with all of you a message about karma a staff member told me once, in regards to getting it:

"People who are able to release the RL beliefs and embrace Zalanthian beliefs while playing a consistent character get the most karma."

And that's all there really is. I think that quote is so good I don't even want to tarnish it with an explanation.

I know players that can do that.  Oddly enough they have 0 karma because they can't be "trusted", you're living in a fantasy world.

-RM

Not to sound like a brownnoser, but how does anyone who doesn't stand over another player every minute they play actually know whether they are trustworthy and good roleplayers?  How do you not know while you are roleplaying with them they do wonderful, but when they walk off they go and twink their skills up?  Maybe they do something that you don't see and an Imm does and THAT is why they have 0 karma?  It took me a good year to get a single point, if not just over a year and I didn't twink and I thought I RP'd well.  Sometimes it takes time to gain any.  Maybe it's just us people with karma arm in fact a group of people who shower the Imms with money and gifts so we can get karma while all the good roleplayers are left with 0?  Uhm...no.

The only reason karma might be considered unfair, in my opinion, is the fact that you have to be watched by the staff over time to attain it. This can become a bit tough for players like myself who are on off-peak hours. I myself am still very new to the game, so I don't particularly understand what all the fuss is with "karma" and the like. New roles might be fun, but I really think I would love this game no less if I never received one bit of karma. The mundane roles are the most enjoyable for me. Those are the ones which really help immerse the player into a desert planet full of intrigue and death, not some flashy magicker or whatever those karma classes/guilds/races are.

I'm sure you are a good player RunningMountain. Perhaps even a great one. But don't let your observations of a few players justify you're current position. Perhaps the karma system is unbalanced, but at least this game offers a "reward" system of sorts. I think that's a pretty nice gesture myself. As for wether or not these players you know deserve karma, I think only playtime will tell. And perhaps the keen eye of a high-ranking staff member. :wink:

Quote from: "RunningMountain"
The problem? They are all too busy with their little high-fantasy plots that involve about 4 players in their clan, and that's all they care about. That is just my opinion on why a lot of people get overlooked.

You exaggerate and you seem to need experience running a clan from the immortal side.
If someone wants to get noticed, they can raise their hand.  If not, then you have no argument.

Quote from: "RunningMountain"
Karma to me is just an excuse to reward certain players who have appeased and played with certain imms, if this wasn't true, then the twenty or so players I believe deserve it would have it.  

In the past (like eight years ago) I would have agreed with you, bro.  I once had a character that was ressed like eight times.  However, this is certainly not the way it works today.  

Imms, like the rest of us,  probably have certain favorite people they feel can really bring life to the game.  They play with these folks and may reward them karma for jobs well done (as anyone is rewarded when their work is noticed).

However, doing nothing to get noticed will get you exactly - nothing.

Quote from: "RunningMountain"
...there a lot of good players whom do not care for it and these are the ones that get overlooked. Hence making the system quite flawed, and needing to be changed.

If they don't care for it, then you have no argument.  If they don't want it, they don't get it and no one is the worse for it.  If they want it, ask for it.  That's all.  Karma is as easily granted as it is taken away.  I'm sure any Imm who trusts someone with one additional karma point will have no problem taking it away if their trust ends up being misplaced.

Hence, the system is certainly not flawed but actually works quite well.  

Additionally - since special applications are the offer freedom from the wheel of karma, one could argue that the need for a karma system at all is unncessary because anyone can play anything at any given time and karma then simply is relegated to the role of an admin aid.

Frankly, I don't see that you have a reasonable argument - no offense.

I like the Karma system, A –lot-, it's an excellent way to reward players and also keep the ratios of race and guild to the way we think it should be in the world.

It also insures that the people who can do the most damage to the game world are the most responsible, and when people come into contact with those less abundant others, they know they are in for a good Rp experience.

Now as for how to get Karma. Really, what do you want from us? 27 Imms  (if that's even correct) for a player base of well over 200 people? I don't think it's unreasonable that we ask if you are looking to garner Karma that you request we have a look at you.  Hell, we even made a review flag for it to make it easy for you.

No we can't look at everyone all the time. And yes, there are plenty of great RP'er that get missed if they don't ask about it.  We do make the effort to look at people that are not clanned, but yes, we will always look at our clanned players more, mostly because those are our assigned players, they are our responsibility.

Now as for what will give you Karma, that's simple. Firstly, quality Rp, time and time again, a lack of bad account notes, leadership roles (Yes.. that's right, leadership roles. Because they are hard and take time, detection and help involve players. And before you jump on this one RM, I don't just mean ordinary Nobles, Merchants, Templars. I mean anyone that takes initiative and keeps other players motivated and keeps things going.) Being helpful (in general).  

Basic stuff. You don't need to kiss Imm ass to get karma. You just need to play the game properly, and yes, I am very sorry, sometimes you need to be asked to be noticed.

And also, for those of you who have bad account notes. It's not impossible to regain staff trust and gain Karma, though I will say it's not easy.  If you are requesting Karma and you have notes a mile long don't expect to play a few good PC's and get instant redemption, it might take a while.

But again, its not impossible by any mark. Hell, I have a couple bad account notes.   :wink:

Quote from: "Angela Christine"
Karma is over-rated.  The best roles require 0 karma.

Angela Christine

That is right. Very right. I don't want to play anything between 0 karma and a mul, 7 karma.

Hell. I only want to play a mul and humans, maybe an elf or two, just toss in a half-breed.

Now, as I was told by an Imm. They want me to play magickers and pretty much everything between 0 and 7, or I can't play 7.


Now, Ac, Give me the frank talk about how Karma and trust works together, please?

Karma is a sensitive subject.  

Karma is one of the only methods by which we perceive we're being judged as players.  The problem is with a player's percetion.  Many players think of karma as a reward.  They believe that "good" RP will earn them karma, and if they don't see these special classes available during character creation, that they've somehow not made the cut.

Imms may see karma as a means to control the amount of one guild's presence in the game, as well as a management tool to support players they feel would do well playing a karma required race/class.

One of the hardest things to do is judge yourself correctly.  You're biased.  You are your best and worst friend.  I know that there were many stages of my time playing Armageddon that I thought my actions were perfectly justified and that my RP was at a high level.  Actions which I now see as being immature and short sighted.

More than good emotes, interaction, communication and role playing, I think that the Imms distribute karma to players they feel have demonstrated the patience and maturity to handle the potential for power that comes along with karma classes/races.  For example:

Muls and Half-Giants have the power to do some real damage to the existing playerbase from the moment they are created.  For no other reason than their strength alone, there must be an assurance on the side of the player's history that the position won't be abused.  If the player has a tendency to ignore realistic gameplay, grow impatient with clan and role restrictions or constantly demonstrate the desire to player kill across several characters, then the Imm Staff may be uncomfortable giving them access to the karma classes/races even if they do maintain a reasonably high level of RP when interacting with the world.

One has to recognize that many of these karma classes/races come with no small amount of power, and that power is greater than your ego.  Karma is not about you.  It is about your place within a dynamic world of other players and whether an Immortal has had the chance to properly review your RP prior to inserting such a character to that mix.

I would highly suggest your friends follow the advice of the other posters and email the MUD account to be reviewed, special app for a karma race/guild for the chance to be watched more closely and follow some of the conventions in place to meet their goals.  Chances are that you will be allowed to play or told the reason why you cannot, or perhaps a suggestion as to what they'd like to see you accomplish first.

Communicate with the Imm(s).  Be polite.  Understand that there may be work you will have to do to make up for past wrongdoings and that the single best road to recovery is honesty, humility and the willingness to listen to constructive criticism.  And hopefully your road will soon bear the sign, "Karma, Population: You."

-LoD

This issue has come up a number of times.  Here are some threads with good posts about the subject of karma:

Look for Sanvean's post in this one (http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12284&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=karma+trust&start=15)

Halaster's thoughts here are good ;) (http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=125536&highlight=karma+trust#125536)

Yet another thread about karma (http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7667&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=karma+trust&start=0)

IC and OOC Trust are discussed here, intermixed with some thoughts on karma. (http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5951&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=karma+trust&start=0)

Rindan's first post here is interesting and well thought-out (http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4752&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=karma+trust&start=0)

Here's a post I found when I climbed into the way-back machine....  back when anyone could post in Ask the Staff (http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=30969&highlight=karma+trust#30969)

-- X

Quote from: "Maybe42or54"

Quote from: "Angela Christine"
Karma is over-rated.  The best roles require 0 karma.

Angela Christine

That is right. Very right. I don't want to play anything between 0 karma and a mul, 7 karma.

Hell. I only want to play a mul and humans, maybe an elf or two, just toss in a half-breed.

Now, as I was told by an Imm. They want me to play magickers and pretty much everything between 0 and 7, or I can't play 7.


Now, Ac, Give me the frank talk about how Karma and trust works together, please?

You don't have to make a magicker in order to get high karma.  If you have reasonably high karma and you special app a mul and do a good job, you may end up keeping that option after the PC died.

Larath. See how I mentioned an Imm in that blurb about they want me to play magickers and pretty much everything between 0 and 7?

Do I really have, or want, 4+ years to finally play all these pcs they want me to play the way I'd want to play them, so that I can play the one I want to play? It may only take 2 years *shrug*. I may not have 2 years. Personal reasons, don't ask.

That is a long time there, my friend. I could have me a nice bottle of scotch if I bought one now and stored it in my closet til that day. I may enjoy that role that much more. I may not enjoy any role between now and then, but there is a chance I would. Playing the roles I like, probably, all look the same to Imms. Even though they all are different to me. The complexity of my thoughts for some of my pcs would probably look extremely simple to people watching.

I don't want Karma, because I may never use it anyway. Since it is levelled, and to get to the top level you need to go through the other levels. I don't see how playing 6 magickers can really effect playing a mul besides me knowing the intricasies of magickering. I don't see how the current leveling of Karma works at all. Which is why I suggested, and it was obviously ignored, that we make an attribute system instead of the current level of Karma. I think that would make a lot more sense to me and my followers, all 4 of them.

Right now it sounds like this: And tell me if I am wrong here.

Level 1- You can look at my dog.
Level 2- You can touch the thing
Level 3- You can make it giggle.
Level 4- You can hold it, but don't move.
Level 5- Alright, you can move.
Level 6- You can dance with it.
Level 7- You can play with toys with it.
Level 8- You can wreslte with it and shoot it with my bb gun.

The special applications process provides what you hope to achieve with your "attributes" system, Maybe42or54, and allows us the luxury of tuning the MUD's population in various popular guild/race categories.

-- X

Quote from: "Xygax"The special applications process provides what you hope to achieve with your "attributes" system, Maybe42or54, and allows us the luxury of tuning the MUD's population in various popular guild/race categories.

-- X

I tried, I was denied. Outright.
For the reasons I stated in my previous post.

There is a story I wrote on that but deleted it after so...
Here are the basics. Over the past year I have emailed the mud I think four or five times requesting information on muls, such as background descriptions, help on the history, so on and so on. Refused with an answer that didn't make sense each time.
I tried the helpers, and let us just say, that didn't work.
I tried other players, and well.. I got a few more basics, but overall it wasn't very helpful.

I special apped for a Pc in the future. I was thinking 3 or 4 months. I was refused outright, but I got some very good insights into the mul. Thank you Imm'er. I was then told they would like me to play some magicker and other races first. That'll take a year right there, if not more. Now, another question.

Why do I have to get purposefully distracted to get the mission in hand? For example, that is like going to a Mazda Car lot to test drive the cars their before I go to a Jeep lot and buy me a Jeep, when I don't like Mazda's. Just sounds that way to me.

Forgive me for chiming in again, but I think the reason they told you that was because they or that Imm wished to see you in some sort of role with responsibility.  They wished to observe you playing a role which required a small amount of trust first, versus one that requires an immense amount of trust.  Maybe I am wrong, but it is how I am translating that.

Maybe42or54, you're asking for access to a rocket launcher.  We want to see how responsible you are in the use of rifles and machine guns first.

Quote from: "moab"

Quote from: "RunningMountain"
The problem? They are all too busy with their little high-fantasy plots that involve about 4 players in their clan, and that's all they care about. That is just my opinion on why a lot of people get overlooked.

You exaggerate and you seem to need experience running a clan from the immortal side.
If someone wants to get noticed, they can raise their hand.  If not, then you have no argument.

Quote from: "RunningMountain"
Karma to me is just an excuse to reward certain players who have appeased and played with certain imms, if this wasn't true, then the twenty or so players I believe deserve it would have it.  

In the past (like eight years ago) I would have agreed with you, bro.  I once had a character that was ressed like eight times.  However, this is certainly not the way it works today.  

Imms, like the rest of us,  probably have certain favorite people they feel can really bring life to the game.  They play with these folks and may reward them karma for jobs well done (as anyone is rewarded when their work is noticed).

However, doing nothing to get noticed will get you exactly - nothing.

Quote from: "RunningMountain"
...there a lot of good players whom do not care for it and these are the ones that get overlooked. Hence making the system quite flawed, and needing to be changed.

If they don't care for it, then you have no argument.  If they don't want it, they don't get it and no one is the worse for it.  If they want it, ask for it.  That's all.  Karma is as easily granted as it is taken away.  I'm sure any Imm who trusts someone with one additional karma point will have no problem taking it away if their trust ends up being misplaced.

Hence, the system is certainly not flawed but actually works quite well.  

Additionally - since special applications are the offer freedom from the wheel of karma, one could argue that the need for a karma system at all is unncessary because anyone can play anything at any given time and karma then simply is relegated to the role of an admin aid.

Frankly, I don't see that you have a reasonable argument - no offense.

Like I said you shouldn't have to "raise your hand" to be noticed.  You should be watched and receive criticism, but unless you send in e-mails to be watched, and even then you are not guaranteed anything but maybe a reply in a few weeks.

I know that's not how it works.  But people do plenty in game and never get noticed, because they aren't involved in the special little plots that imms like to setup for their clans, only, when's the last time the entire PC population was affected by a plot?  I can't even recall, for me it was the HRPT for the liberation of Tuluk.  Since then I have tried to avoid plots because they do nothing but get me killed and piss me off.



I'm not trying to make an arguement, just a point, that the system does not reach everyone, and plenty of players are simply overlooked, whether it's the staff's fault or the player's fault for now "asking" for the karma is up to you to decide I suppose?

-RM

Waroth. Hopefully that is out of the question.
I've only had 11 or 12 pcs and 5 of those have been in leadership positions within a house or clan.

Quote from: "Vanth"Maybe42or54, you're asking for access to a rocket launcher.  We want to see how responsible you are in the use of rifles and machine guns first.

Nice Analogy, but someone skilled in Machine gunning and someone trained in rocketry wont be able to do each others jobs perfectly.

If the purpose of this thread is to determine whether Maybe42or54 (and/or RunningMountain, though that looks like a derailment from Maybe's original post) should have access to the mul race-option, I'd rather that sort of thing not be discussed on the GDB.

Maybe42or54:  Feel free to e-mail me personally and include all of your previous correspondence; I'll have a look at it, though I don't guarantee that my thoughts will differ from the thoughts of those before me, or that my opinion will hold any weight.

I don't personally consider the karma system flawed, relative to other alternatives that I've seen proposed, and so far I haven't seen a system outlined here that presents anything as effective as what we have now.  I realize that sometimes people go overlooked, and that far more often people feel overlooked.  There are remedies for that that have been mentioned within this thread and the several others I linked before, please try them out.  If those remedies don't work for you, then I suggest trying to find a way to enjoy the roles for which you do have karma.

-- X

Of course you don't. The purpose of this thread was for someone to answer my ignored questions. Keyword being ignored questions. Using myself as an example.

Now would anyone care to answer the questions I asked?

mmh, as far as I know, being a new player I'm still karma-less.  I know that I'm gonna get frustrated about the karma sooner or later, probably when I really want to play that awesome d-elf/magicker concept I thought up but can't due to lack of karma and because I feel that as an european player with off-peak play times, I'm not watched a lot.

However, I think the karma system here is handled -FAR- better than in another MUD  I've seen. We have imms that are online off-peak, too, important for euro players like me. We have imms assigned to unclanned characters (I happen to play one of those atm) now. Even without karma, you can play a fair number of races and guilds, playing all those concepts I'd like to with those choices is still going to keep me busy for some time. During the time I played here, I've actually noticed some imm-presence, even during off-peak hours (cheered me up quite a lot, I'm not alone, yay!). You don't loose karma when you play a karma-restricted class/race.  I feel that unlike in certain other places I've played for some time, a fair number of those that deserve karma really get it. And if everything doesn't work out, you can always submit a special application and hope to be lucky with that.
Overall I think the system is as good as it can get...

Quote from: "Maybe42or54"Of course you don't. The purpose of this thread was for someone to answer my ignored questions. Keyword being ignored questions. Using myself as an example.

Now would anyone care to answer the questions I asked?

I assume you mean this question?

Quote from: "Maybe42or54"Topic:  Karma and trust
How are those two compared

Your question is answered in all of the other threads I posted earlier.

-- X

Maybe42or54

I think the point was, the staff may be ready to trust you with a lot of other roles before that one. And we would like you to give a try into one of those others or at least monitor your play more, before we feel you can be ready for that race.

Yes, you can always speical app, but if you get approved is always up in the air. However, if you don't we will give you a clear reason why, and you really can't ask for more than that.

And RM, once again, we do have the review flag. It really doesn't get much easier than that. You can send us an email and we will respond to you. I mean, most people that want Karma and don't get it, inquire.

We all have lives and this is a volunteer effort. I myself would love nothing more than to dedicate my 8 hour work day to the mud. However, Nessalin has made it clear he can only pay me in imaginary peanuts, and that doesn't pay my rent. So instead I just devote 4-6 hours at night to the mud. And not every night, because I have a family that need to not feel second place to a game and I at least have to pretend for their sake that it's true.

And I am not the only Imm with this dilemma, most of us are your average, hard working adults. We do our best. It will have to be good enough. Sorry.

My questions:

Why is the current system built in "Levels"?

Explain it to me frankly.

Would it be better in an attributed system?

Yes, I know, people that have more than 5 karma don't really care. Imms less then that, from my point of view.

Isn't the system inherently flawed since we have a level system in a leveless game?


With the attributed style:
You could build it the way you want by putting the karma where you want it. For instance, you have no Karma. Imms give you 1 karma(s). You want to play a mul, so you pick the species route and put that 1 karma to play d-elf.
As you build up karma, you keep attributing it to the side of the race you want it to go. Magickers and whatnot can play magickers and the half giants can play half giants and so on and so forth.

This is also inherently flawed since you only need 3 karma to play a mul which is pretty much a special app process anyways. So, when you get that mul option, you need to email the mud asking them to open it for you since, they know if you are worthy or not.

*shrug* Just an idea.

Quote from: "Maybe42or54"Why is the current system built in "Levels"?

Because it works well and makes sense with the way power is distributed among the races and guilds.

Quote from: "Maybe42or54"Would it be better in an attributed system?

No.  See below.

Quote from: "Maybe42or54"Isn't the system inherently flawed since we have a level system in a leveless game?

No.  See below.

Quote from: "Maybe42or54"With the attributed style:
You could build it the way you want by putting the karma where you want it. For instance, you have no Karma. Imms give you 1 karma(s). You want to play a mul, so you pick the species route and put that 1 karma to play d-elf.
As you build up karma, you keep attributing it to the side of the race you want it to go. Magickers and whatnot can play magickers and the half giants can play half giants and so on and so forth.

This is still a tiered system (ie. level-based), and only serves to allow you to "short-cut" to a class you want to play.  The reason for the karma system in the first place is to prevent short-cuts like that.  There is another route for short-cuts called special application.  I'm sorry that that route hasn't been successful for you.

Quote from: "Maybe42or54"This is also inherently flawed since you only need 3 karma to play a mul which is pretty much a special app process anyways. So, when you get that mul option, you need to email the mud asking them to open it for you since, they know if you are worthy or not.

*shrug* Just an idea.

So...  you're calling your own proposal inherently flawed?  Maybe I'm being dense:  please clarify.

-- X

Let me tell you what I understand from detrailment, some people would like to be praised occasionally for what they are doing IG and to be told how they are doing right.

Maybe rarely, but I see some players begin to play directly with IMMs instead of thinking of IG consequences. Like.. I lost this character because X does not like me.. this quest is failed because of Y, these are false conclusions of Z, because X does not like me my karma and account notes are awful.. Because of Z, all alphabet hates me, etc..

Peh... IMMs are human so they may mistakes or do not notice what you are doing good. After a while playing game OOCly with IMMs, some people begin to think everything around themselves happen because of their personal relations with IMMs.  I have heard these from people, I have seen these kinds of words many times. Then after this period, some of those players leave the MUD or try to blame IMMs for everything in OOC level or using GDB (note I am not saying everything is perfect, but simply every problem your PC face can not be because of your relation with IMMs.)

There was a recent post about what is RP. RP very shortly means staying IC. On the other hand, playing game with/againist IMMs and using OOC communication (IMs, GDB or chat)  for smoothing or blaming a few things you face IG is definetly not staying IC.

I really am getting bored of reading some players trying to prove how IMMs are making mistakes in every post. Surely critizing is the most imporant way of improvement. On the other hand, with an aggressive attitude mentioning how things are wrong (or you do not like) with your each post everyday  is not a good way of critizing but only meaningless noise.. at least for me.

My two sids.

PS. Funny thing is, those people who like expressing themselves via angry and inconstructive posts are eager to blame everybody else as doing what they are doing for Karma or good attitude of IMMs. Peh..

What I think Maybe is trying to ask is how can you trust someone to play a level 2 karma magicker, but not a mul? I know why muls were raised in karma level and I think they should stay that way, because I remember when there were twenty muls running around at some times, and it was getting ridiculous, but the question I think is, how can you can trust someone to play a level 2-3-4 karma magicker which can kill you with 1 spell, but not a mul?  Muls really aren't that hard to play, they just roll a high strength statistic, and are very low in population because they are bred, not born.  Again though, as far as trust is concerned, I don't see why they are so high up on the karma level.

-RM

QuoteWith the attributed style:
You could build it the way you want by putting the karma where you want it. For instance, you have no Karma. Imms give you 1 karma(s). You want to play a mul, so you pick the species route and put that 1 karma to play d-elf.
As you build up karma, you keep attributing it to the side of the race you want it to go. Magickers and whatnot can play magickers and the half giants can play half giants and so on and so forth.

Karma isn't a lounge.  1 point of karma doesn't equate to "access" to all karma options where the Imms just picked numbers out of a hat for what class/race goes where.  If you want to play a mul, then you should follow the suggestions of the Immortals and play other roles that contain no small amount of IC power.  What they want to see is how you make use of that immense power, and if you would be dangerous handling a mul.

Mul karma used to be much lower, which was a point that I contested.  When they were easier to create, many players would "make a mul" because they wanted the stats.  They were after the raw and awesome killing power that is a mul.  They didn't want to RP a slave, as the vast majority of muls in game would be.  I could count the number of actual PC mul "slaves" on one hand while I would constantly run into "free" muls wandering around the sands.  I am glad that they made the change to raise mul karma.

As for Xygax's analogy of the rifle and the rocket launcher, I think you misinterpreted the comparison.  He wasn't comparing skill, but damage potential.  If I hand someone a rifle and they misfire (just as if the Imms hand you a special app and you abuse it) they -might- kill someone, but there's a much larger chance that it will graze, wound or miss altogether.  When some misfires a rocket launcher, chances are that its victim and everyone within a fair distance will be killed and/or badly wounded.

The damage potential for the high level karma classes/races warrants careful scrutiny over a player's history, habits and play style before handing out such a dangerous weapon.  Adopting a system to let players "play what they wanted" is contrary to the entire purpose of karma.

-LoD

LoD I agree with raising the karma level. I think rejecting muls more often and keeping a cap on the population would be just as effective as raising the karma so that hardly anyone has it.  Just because you have the karma to make it doesn't mean it needs to be approved.

-RM

Quote from: "RunningMountain", how can you can trust someone to play a level 2-3-4 karma magicker which can kill you with 1 spell, but not a mul?  Muls really aren't that hard to play, they just roll a high strength statistic, and are very low in population because they are bred, not born.

You may really hate this answer, and no disprespct intended.  It wasn't until after I started playing some karma roles that I really got a feel for -why- they were karma role.  Sure a magicker could kill in one spell, but it's not as easy as you think. There are as many risks as there is power.  The shear power a mul would hold right out of the chute could be phenomonal. If you remember the posts about delfs, and people complaining about how much damage a delf could do when it is poorly played.  Think of a mul and how much more powerful they are.  In short sometimes you don't fully understand the whys of things until you you get there.

One other thing to think of from a post that was referenced

QuoteYou really need to have the patience of a saint at times while using Karma classes or be content solo RPing. I have never retired a mundane character and class or wished hope against hope that they die. I have retired karma classes before and there have been times where I have prayed for a crazy elf to slice my throat open.

When times get exceeding dull, will you have the patience to stick it out, or will you use the power to entertain yourself?  I think much of that is what they are looking for.

My two sid, back to lurking on this thread.

Amoeba, so how will you ever truly know if someone can play a mul? Eventually it comes down to just giving it to them correct? Do they have to prove themselves by not killing anybody with karma level 2 magicker, then go to karma level 3 and play a giant and not PK anybody, then so and so forth?  I am perplexed.

Quote from: "RunningMountain"Amoeba, so how will you ever truly know if someone can play a mul? Eventually it comes down to just giving it to them correct? Do they have to prove themselves by not killing anybody with karma level 2 magicker, then go to karma level 3 and play a giant and not PK anybody, then so and so forth?  I am perplexed.

I think that is an oversimplification. It's not about PKing persay.  How you demonstrate trust worthyness varies from player to player.  There is the straight forward rising up in karma, which is the most obvious route, albiet a slow route. Then there is the special app route. If you think all that is cared about is to if you kill someone or not you're missing the boat.  

Personaly I don't know the answer for you, I don't know your RP, only those who can see from above can.  It seems that rather than having a very public discussion about your individual needs, you might be better served by communicating with the IMMs.  To me communicating with them is like the hide skill. I don't really know if what I am doing is right, I can only infer it by the outcome. And with all things, you get better at it with time.  And please, don't twink practice IMM contact. It probably just pisses them off. ;)   But I doubt bantering back and forth here will help your cause any.

Now, I'm tired, it's freaking hot, 115+, and I'm going to go lay down in front of a fan. Good luck.

Quote from: "RunningMountain"
Some people don't ask nicely, they just want to play the game, and in fact probably do not care about karma at all, therefore they play for the enjoyment of themselves and others.  To tell people to:
Go try and get it" "
"Go play a role that you know imms will watch"
"E-mail the imms and ask for a review."

These sorts of things aren't what you should have to do to be noticed and watched, even if you play loners all the time.  By my count per wizlist Armageddon has 4 overlords, 9 highlords, and 14 Storytellers, so we have a total of 27 staff right now, that may or may not be active, but that is according to the wizlist today. etc., etc.

Let me rephrase - no. Let me say what I said again but with a bold tag for emphasis. If you really want to build up karma, play consistently well in a role that an Imm will keep an eye on. If it bothers you that much then that is what I suggest.

Karma isn't the point of Armageddon, and while it may give you a nice feeling to build it up, it shouldn't be your end goal. If you really, really can't have fun without being able to play Nilazis without special apps, then follow my suggestion.

Do I think the system is flawed? No. If building up karma was the point of the game, then it would be bad that some roles - the roles that involve more frequent interaction with or scrutiny from immortals - will by their very nature prove more effective in terms of convincing those very same immortals that you are a responsible player. But that's not the point of the game. So if you're really bothered about your karma level, you can follow some of the suggestions in this thread. But the absolute very best suggestion? Just chill. It isn't really something to get worked up about.

I have Karma. To my knowledge I've not abused it.

I've had a Karma Race/Class completely abused on me.

To be fair, if you think someone abused Karma, log it and email the mud.

If you think you deserve Karma, email the mud.

It's a pretty simple system. I personally don't see any problems.

I think the plot/conflict system needs alot more attention then the karma system does. It's not perfect, I've been twink killed by templars, muls, half-giants, sorcs.....but it works well. Better then any other mud period.

This is also comming from what could easily be the whiniest player of all time. So, dude, if I don't have a problem with Karma, no one should.

Sarajc's doppleganger hath spoken.

And I'll challenge you to the title of whiniest player, Jmordesky. Trade account notes, hmmmmmm?

So someone can make a dwarven warrior that can rip mekillots to shreds after he practices at getting strong, but can't have a mul because they are too powerful to begin with..  I'll just stop right here, I think I am going to just stop posting again too because some of the answers I get here are just pointless to read.

-RM

Quote from: "Anonymous"So someone can make a dwarven warrior that can rip mekillots to shreds after he practices at getting strong, but can't have a mul because they are too powerful to begin with..  I'll just stop right here, I think I am going to just stop posting again too because some of the answers I get here are just pointless to read.

-RM

If you think dwarves even remotely compare to the raw brute potential of a mul, you're downright mistaken.

But more than that, the role is a difficult one to play -- partly because of the remarkable and difficult-to-control power, but also because of the half-breed mentality that so many half-elven players get wrong.  Yes, various magicker classes requiring less karma than muls might have more potential for destruction and mayhem, but mayhem isn't the only measure of power or the difficulty of a role.

-- X

Yes Xygax, every class can do damage in different ways. And you pointed out a very valuable point to me which i missed in my days and days of thought provoking days at work. Though I believe I shouldn't have to play magicker before I play a mul, you pointed out something.

Half-breeds.

The elf version of the Mul.

I will indeed play those now with humans and thank you Xygax for your semi-informing posts. Thank you for actually answering my questions with just more than a "no". Even if it wasn't my question.

(deleted blurb about magickers)

See how nice it is to not lock the threads on your first post? J/k

Maybe42or54:  The problem is that your attitude throughout this thread doesn't strike me as one conducive to earning karma.  You are spending too much time thinking about karma.  We don't wander around looking for people who seem to be actively working for karma and reward them with it.  We look for people whose character feel "right", whose activities make sense, who do not have an adversarial relationship with their clan staff or others, and who actively contribute to the world during the time they're logged in (and maybe even when they're not, via submissions, consistent interaction with their staff through e-mail, etc.).

None of this means you need to be in a clan.  None of this means you need to be logged in 24/7.  None of this means you need to play for seven years to get mul-karma.

The best way to get to this is to -enjoy- the game.  Enjoy the characters you're playing now and don't focus your every waking effort on convincing some staff-member to give you karma.  When you manage this, the karma will come easily.

Really, it will.

-- X

QuoteThe best way to get to this is to -enjoy- the game. Enjoy the characters you're playing now and don't focus your every waking effort on convincing some staff-member to give you karma. When you manage this, the karma will come easily.

Really, it will.

If you're in a role that imms notice. Saying have fun, it will be noticed is not accurate (and I utterly respect Xygax). That's why I'm hoping the unaffilated imms can offer what guilded imms offer, insofar as exposure, eventually.

QuoteThe damage potential for the high level karma classes/races warrants careful scrutiny over a player's history, habits and play style before handing out such a dangerous weapon. Adopting a system to let players "play what they wanted" is contrary to the entire purpose of karma.

Um. What did your last many-day character die to? Did you understand why? (Before anyone reacts to my vocabulary, if those statistics were not legit and/or desired, why are they provided?)

In short, the bottom line, from my perspective is: Above all, have fun, and damn karma -- wait! Isn't that just what a brilliant, hard-working, thankless imm said earlier? Yes. Now, if you want karma - join a clanned group, and/or a group that can't be ignored. Forgive my cynicism. If anyone can prove me wrong, I'm open to other perspectives.

Otherwise shall we agree that karma is some super secret, intuitive, you either are worthy or not, the imms know but you don't, sort of stat, that isn't a reward, nor a privilage, it simply IS. IS you is, or IS you ain't? :)

The broke-ass, human bynner is here scoffing at you.

Upon my return to the game after many years of not playing, my second pc earned me HG karma. I hadn't played under the karma system before.

That being said, I've been pk'd by those using karma classes/races who were abusing code, ignoring npcs and vnpcs and I'm sure that if I did any of those things since I'd have lost my karma. Instead, I've earned more since and ran into lots of players who do very well with the karma they've earned. I've also played with one of your pcs before Maybe and I thought that you were too focused on power rather than rp. Most likely this is the reason behind your apps being denied but I'm not an imm so I can't be certain.

I don't believe myself to be the authority on rp but I work to better myself constantly. I think that the karma system is fine the way it is and you need to get your focus off getting karma and onto bettering your roleplay. I'm not saying that you're a bad roleplayer but that you might want to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. We all have room for improvement and those that recognize that will eventually get those options.

I want to add that I did enjoy the time that I interacted with at least one of your pcs and you have the potential to be one of the best if you can just get past this attitude about the karma system. I might be taking it the wrong way though and if I am I'm sorry.

Mistakes with giving out karma can disrupt things for the playerbase.
I personally like the attitude as far as karma goes.

You have to learn how to crawl before you can walk...you have to learn how to walk before you can fly.

Quote from: "Anonymous"So someone can make a dwarven warrior that can rip mekillots to shreds after he practices at getting strong, but can't have a mul because they are too powerful to begin with..  I'll just stop right here, I think I am going to just stop posting again too because some of the answers I get here are just pointless to read.

-RM

RM, maybe I should add two more suggestions. One, try not to be so rude and confrontational with other players of the game and its caretakers. And two, maybe cut down on the 'hey, join my PC family and make sure you play something that has wagoncrafting because I need that' kind of stuff.

I'm gonna ask you guys to cool it with the personal jabs and take that to the PM's so we can keep the topic on track.

/me kicks Qetesh in the shin
(you probally wouldn't have answered PMs, and I don't jab)


Anyways...this thread. It slightly bothers me, I see it as potentially insulting to some imms and the system. I think, you don't need karma and it doesn't matter. As many have said 0 karma roles are the best, afterall.

I could talk and give my opinion, and I will, but I'm only echoing sentiments.

Special apps.

Karma is just for if an imm who how been watching you decideds they want you to have that.Imms dont have to be watching you.

I submitted one special app which was denied. No more so far. Although I might just resubmit that same one now that a little account comment business has been cleared up.

A long time ago after a minor disaggrement with an imm, I decied 'screw the immz!' and that I'm not going to roleplay for them. Really, the imm was the shit, very nice, and very (many things). Also right, as part of my argumet was 'whoops' but that a derail no worht going onto.
As I was saying...-don't- play for the imms. -don't- play for karma. Thats no fun.

Seconding though, the immz we have are the shit.

If truth be told, I would really almost rather see the Karma system scrapped and any class and race other than the mundane acheivable only through special app.

I know it is somewhat ... harsh? but I think it would be the best system.

A little derailment...

Quote from: "Venomz"If truth be told, I would really almost rather see the Karma system scrapped and any class and race other than the mundane acheivable only through special app.

I also agree to this statement.  To me, this would make things much easier.  Though we would need more than one imm to look for special applications then.

I think the karma system works just fine, generally.

I don't think I should've gotten my first 2 points so close together during my first character. Even if they thought I was some kind of RP genius, I think a little time to see how well I handle the responsibility of playing would've been more appropriate. On the other hand, when I had a point docked for my own stupidity on the GDB, I felt it should've been returned at some point during the last year, especially since it was noted in my account notes that I had apologized for the stupidity, -and- especially since I wasn't ever notified that I had been docked a point.

HOWEVER

I still say it works fine. If I really want that point back badly enough, the staff knows I have a big enough "mouth" (textually speaking) to ask for it. Thing is, the only "karma-class" type characters I have any real interest in playing (other than desert elf which pretty much anyone can get in hardly any time at all), are classes much higher than the 1 point I got docked. They would require a special app, and I don't do special apps unless the role is a staff-recruited one. That's just me, and it's because I am too impatient to wait for someone to approve/reject a special app some time in the next month. That's my limitation, self-imposed, and no way would I ever fault the karma system or the staff for that.

There's also something folks might not be understanding, or maybe it hasn't been clearly noted yet (I haven't read every response, sorry):

If you want to play a karma character, and don't have the karma:

If you submit a request to play that type of character, you can ask in the same note, for the staff to please keep an eye out on your roleplay in advance of approving/rejecting your request. Chances are that's what they'll do anyway, unless they already have been watching all along.

Sometimes people get overlooked, and that's a shame because I'm sure there are some stellar RPers who deserve the karma and don't have it. But for those who -want- that karma, and deserve it - a polite request to the staff to watch you for awhile (and why you want them to watch) is probably all it takes to get exactly what you're asking for.

If you don't get it then, the staff will explain why, and even that can be helpful to improve your RP -and- their perception of how well you can handle the responsibility for a future role of the type you want.

Quote from: "Xygax"Maybe42or54:  The problem is that your attitude throughout this thread doesn't strike me as one conducive to earning karma.  You are spending too much time thinking about karma.

-- X

I actually could care less about the majority of Karma. It is that level 7 I want, not that 1-6, or 8 for that matter. I don't even want 7. I want the Mul.

I don't really do something I don't enjoy and call it a game, but seeing as how you guys, the imms, want me to play the roles I don't personally want, then you are forcing me to be worried, or "anxious", about Karma.  Get my point?

I personally love the roles I play, and that is why I play them. The ones I don't play, don't sound entertaining to me. The ones I havn't played yet, are, well, I havn't played them yet.

As for Karma coming easily, sure. I don't believe you, but sure.

And Bestatte, That actually made sense and applied to Running Mountain's comments. Thank you for actually pointing something out.

I am going to reply once more.  Maybe42, try joining a house, or turning your review flag on to get someone to observe your RP for awhile and they may overlook the previous suggestion to play a magicker.  I will almost bet they will if you do well in a role. whether you be a plain commoner or not.  They just need to observe your play awhile.  I know this for a fact as I had zero karma when I 'special app'd' for a mul in the T'Zai Byn and got accepted  by Tlaloc.  Got my first two points of karma while playing that role too as that character lived around six RL months.  Just give it time, play the game for awhile with the review flag on and then apply once more.  Sorry for the derailment.  Good luck Maybe42!

I had six karma before I ever played a karma role. You don't have to play one karma role to get another, you have to play the roles you do have consistantly, and responsably.

It think it's ok to want something and to vocally ask for it, but I would suggest that how you ask for it will have a great affect on whether or not you get it. My guess is that if you attack the system in a public forum the system is more likely to become defensive than yeilding. There is something to be said for exercising a bit of diplomacy.

Finally, as someone who recently played their first mul, I can tell you, it is not an easy role. I may have the karma to play one, but it's not a role I'll be wrestling with again soon.

Armageddon is not about gaining karma.  Armageddon is about roleplaying and having fun.  It seems like some people aren't seeing the forest for the trees here.

Noone is saying it is, Cuusardo. Since my questions have been answered and people have gone into their own little world-style ranting of which it doesn't seem to be mentioned at all, I am done. Thank you Bestatte, Xygax, and the other ones I forgot for being helpful and providing insight even if it took a few pages to get you there.

I don't mean to derail, but I do want to clear a slight misconception that was posted in this thread.  Someone said they had hopes that the Unafilliated Characters staff would be out there watching the unclanned characters and potentially awarding karma and all that.

That's not exactly our focus.  While we may be a bit more prone to doing so because of our roles, that's not what our intention is.  Our intention is to be a resource to players who's PC is not in a clan.  PC's in a clan have someone on staff they can communicate with should they need to.  We are serving that same role for unclanned PC's, if you want to communicate with us.

So, while there may be a better chance for a non-clanned PC getting noticed because of the Unafilliated Characters staff, don't be confused and think that's our "job".  We expect that you'll contact us first, in most situations.  Otherwise, you may never hear a peep from us.

I agree, too, that it's rather silly to lament about staff members who run plots and do things for their clan folks.  Hello.. that's their job.  They're doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing when they do that.

As to whether or not we show favortism?  In a way yes, in a way no.  We do try and be as impartial as we can and not overlook people.  But let's face reality, too:  If you're a jerk and have an attitude like RunningMountain, you can count on us not wanting to interact with you and leaving you out of things, because your attitude doesn't make us really want to (until you start paying me a good salary).

Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"If truth be told, I would really almost rather see the Karma system scrapped and any class and race other than the mundane acheivable only through special app.

I know it is somewhat ... harsh? but I think it would be the best system.

I agree with this 100%....However, My thoughts....

If you dont have the Karma, Special app. There is a reason you do not have it, you are
not trusted by the staff. I think you all forget, it is a privledge to play here, not a right.
Trust is earned not given.

Im an Australian player, and i have never had a problem with Karma. Never had a problem with being given special roles, heck i even got invited to play a special role. Never felt ignored or overlooked. The staff do a bang up job and frankly, even if i thought they were a useless  pack of fussy no-nose chimps i do not have the right to complain. The staff can do what they want, just be glad they made the choice to be as fair as humanly possible.

I feel compelled to chime in.

In my moderate tenure on this mud, I've gotten some karma, and the greatest piece of advice I can offer on how to prove your mature and responsible is to get involved in a clan in a leadership capacity, preferrably working your way up from the bottom up.  

This shows the clan immortals the slow and steady development of your character, and then when you get into a position of leadership, how you the player are capable of handling the power and responsibilty of those roles on a day to day basis.

The only other advice I'd offer is use the special application system, but dont' be too ambitious with your requests. To clarify what I mean by this, stick to karma roles within the 1-4 karma levels for a while before requesting anything from the 5-8.  The 5-8 levels have both more potential for abuse, and more challenging roleplay than the former 4 karma tiers in my opinion.  So as Vanth put it, ask to play with a machine gun before you ask to play with the tactical nuclear weapons :-)

If an Imm were to bar me from access to my favorite race or class forever, I'd still love this game.   Hell, if I was barred from every race and class but one this game would be great.  

If your enjoyment of the game is suffering so severely by being made to wait for access to just one race... I think you may be quite dissappointed when you do finally get a mul. Disclaimer:  I've never played a mul, and therefore this is pure speculation.  Playing a mul may be a purely orgasmic experience for all I know.  My favorite mul was old and yellow and made me want to wet myself most of the time.

Though, I always believe in offering a solution when possible, so here's what I think:  Make a dwarf with the focus of becoming a mul.

All problems are instantly solved.  You get to play the part of a mul, though with slightly gimped stats which will put the Imms at ease knowing that you won't lay waste to villages the next time there are no staff on.

all I can say is dont take this so seriously its just a game, enjoy. I have been enjoying this game on and off for a few years never gained karma becuase of my lack of playing and well every time I played I seem to be unlucky  and well I never did rp well when i played so rarely. but its a game run by good people who dont make mony off it (besides books i think). it is a free to play game. I say why complain about something that costs you nothing.


The imms are doing the best the can with out digging into there own personal lives to much, remeber, there NOT here to slave for our enjoyment but to creat a game that we can all enjoy.

No topic can be locked before Cenghiz posts :).
6 pages? Oh mad.. Forgive me, read only half of it.. All I want to say:

1. I earned 3.5 points of karma with unclanned characters. 1.5 points with a clanned one. The point is, you need to be enjoyable to be watched. If your ranger is preparing a plot which involves 6 characters and also a Whiran, you'll be watched. If you're a interesting character that everyone enjoys, you'll be pleased with the amount of animations/help the imms offer. I had one character who had one animation/series of echoes/other helps in my RP per day, because he was damn interesting and to be proud, I played it well.
But if you're a warrior who hunts duskhorns and gets back to the city, you'll not be watched often.

2. Asking for karma is not a call to have your brainz eaten. I asked for karma two times, once I earned 2, the other time I earned 1.5 karma points. Imms sometimes write good notes about you, but they don't always read the collection of all good notes, check your karma level and increase it. Asking for it nicely works.

3. If nothing but usual hassle's happening in a clan, the imms may decide to look elsewhere and watch others - possibly unclanned ones. I know it because I usually get notes from imms who are clan immortals.

4. If you're satisfied with your char, imms also are. For example, currently I don't think I'll ever get karma with the current char, seemingly I just couldn't grasp the mentality of the role, no matter how hard I try. So, if you think you're RPing poorly, don't hesitate to retire, and get a concept which would fit better for you. That's what I'll do after the current plots I'm involved in end, so I won't hurt anyone's RP by retiring.
So with your next more suitable character, imms will be happy - you'll be playing well. Other players will be happy - you'll be real. And you'll be happy, the role will suit you.

[EDITED TO ADD]
5. No no. Wanting karma is not a twinkish instinct. I want to try all the magicker roles, then maybe a mul ranger. Who may blame me for that? I remember writing a special app sounding like "This role will be very interesting to watch, I'll try to earn one more karma to play the guilds x and y in the end." which was approved. Wanting karma is not evil.

I'm not terribly interested in getting into an argument about whether or not the karma system is any good or not (personal opinion: I think it works fine.)  I would, however, like to take a moment to offer a few pointers on the special app system.  I've seen a lot of posted opinions that special apps "take too long" or "I don't have the patience."  The thing is, you don't have to wait until you don't have a current character to send in that special app.  Got a great idea for a character?  Send in the app right away, and just keep on trucking with your current character.  If you play long-lived characters, you may end up with approval (or denial) before your current even dies!  If your characters die quickly, play through a few other concepts while you're waiting.  Don't torment yourself by not having a character and waiting for that special app to be approved, unless you have the patience to wait it out :)

Also, consider sponsored roles.  Want to play a half-giant, but don't have the karma?  Pick a clan you might want to play in (militia, Legion, noble or merchant House) and email the immortals and ask for a sponsored role.  Same thing goes for muls, although your best bet there is militia, Legion, Borsail, or Winrothol.  See if they've got room for a mul slave and would be willing to let you play.  For magickers, there's Oash, the Allanaki templarate, and maybe a few other options if you poke around on the website and check out (and think through) who might be more tolerant of magick than the vast majority of the population.  Yes, sponsored roles generally require you to work closely with staff.  If you feel you've been hurting in the "getting noticed" department, there's your opportunity right there.

Very good pointers, Jollygreen.

I really liked the ideas you had in your second Paragraph. (And it sounded like you read some of this thread, instead of just posting)

Though one point for the special application process.

Mention somewhere in the application, (hopefully near the beginning) that you are currently playing a pc or intend to play another pc during the application process. They may like to hear that.

Quote from: "Cenghiz"2. Asking for karma is not a call to have your brainz eaten. I asked for karma two times, once I earned 2, the other time I earned 1.5 karma points. Imms sometimes write good notes about you, but they don't always read the collection of all good notes, check your karma level and increase it. Asking for it nicely works.

Last I knew, asking for karma was a good way to not get any, and wanting karma was a bad attitude to have. But different people have a different opinion on the matter. IMHO, the only people I ever heard say that karma does not matter were the ones who already had it, and were able to play almost any role they liked at any time.

AC: Some players enjoy magickers over anything else, others desert elves, again others mercenaries. In a perfect world, everyone would be happy with 0-karma roles at all times. But unfortunately there are some people who come up with one awesome magicker idea after the next. I was one of them. Magickers and leader roles intrigued me so much that I could hardly come up with ideas for anything else, let alone enjoy it after 1 and a half years of starting over and over again with mundane short lived nobodies.

And my last special app never got a response after 2 months and 2 reminders. I am getting the strong impression that the imm doing special apps gets pretty burned out on them after maybe half a year until someone else takes special apps over. The unfairness of the karma system would be no problem if special apps always got answered in under a month. But after one month of waiting, the excitement over a cool new idea just goes away.

The karma system is unfair. I dont believe that an european player with 3 hours of time during off-peak hours will get as much karma as the US timezone student with 10 hours a day, given they play equally well. If they are unlucky enough to only have short lived roles despite being careful, the chances diminish further.

I'm also not sure an imm will assign karma to a player they dislike, even if that player does well. If this is true, how could the system possibly be fair?

Karma and trust: Karma players are not necessarily more trustworthy than players with 0 karma. In all my time of playing, I have encountered one single player who did not even mention the tiniest little thing that could be considered IC information OOCly. Its all about who gets caught and who doesnt. But I'm not going to name names.


An idea to possibly improve the karma system: Instead of rewarding players sort of randomly (based on one well-played scene that happened to be observed, or maybe 6 months of running a leader) have karma assigned after certain periods of time IF there have been no observations / notes that the player did anything that made them less trustworthy.

Examples:

-During 50 days of time played, player A has been observed going on a twinking spree with 2 dwarf warrior characters. He has been warned and is doing better, but still has twinkish tendencies. No karma for player A.

-During 50 days of time played, player B (who was totally new to the mud) has mastered the emote system and obviously accumulated much knowledge about the world, which he takes into consideration realistically. However, player B sometimes walks through a storm at night (within the city) because he OOCly knows the way. 1 karma for player B.

Please note I'm referring to time spent actually playing the game, not 50 days of RL time passed.

What I don't believe is how this discussion lasted so long.

I don't have uber karma.  I'm happy with my roles.  Can I come up with endless magicker concepts?  Hell yeah, magickers rule!  Can I come up with endless d-elf concepts?  Of course!  D-elves are the best ever!  Can I come up with endless noble concepts?  Naturally... nothing beats nobles!  Can I come up with endless twisted templar personalities?  Not even a challenge.  Can I come up with endless emotes for how grains of sand fly up my nose?  Yeah, cause I'm just that kinda guy.  I'm thrilled with the entire game.

Every single race on Armag is the best one.  Each class is the most powerful.  All of them are out of balance and twinky, and every damn role I play is sadly underpowered because I don't min max.  Every subclass is the most important.  Strength, of all the stats, is primary... because if you're strong, you can handle any obstacle.  Agility is by far the most important stat, as if you're quick, you can avoid any trouble.  Wisdom, more than any other stat, rules all, as if you can learn quickly you can survive.  And of course, of all the facets of a character, Endurance is the absolutely most important to have at a high rating, because without it, you don't survive.

If I haven't made my point, go shoot yourself.

Quote from: "Akaramu"

Quote from: "Cenghiz"2. Asking for karma is not a call to have your brainz eaten. I asked for karma two times, once I earned 2, the other time I earned 1.5 karma points. Imms sometimes write good notes about you, but they don't always read the collection of all good notes, check your karma level and increase it. Asking for it nicely works.

Last I knew, asking for karma was a good way to not get any, and wanting karma was a bad attitude to have. But different people have a different opinion on the matter. IMHO, the only people I ever heard say that karma does not matter were the ones who already had it, and were able to play almost any role they liked at any time.

Asking for karma is definitely a good way to make sure you have not been overlooked. It has worked for me on two seperate occasions, just like Cenghiz.

I do think you're right, its likely mostly people who have karma saying it doesn't matter. Having karma is great if you want to play karma restricted roles. Not having karma sucks if you want to play karma restricted roles.

In the past, I've also had special apps that never had responses. Having dealt with Naiona as a clan imm, and also as a special application imm, I can say with very little doubt that it would take a power-outage to keep her from responding to your special app within a month.

For all those who doubt, read these words as truth:

A simple email, worded along the lines of my example below, WILL get you karma if you've been playing for a while and don't have any (recent) bad account notes.

Quote
Hi there, this is the player of account ______.

I've been playing Armageddon for ____ (amount of time) and to my knowledge haven't received any (recent)bad account notes. Or if I did, here is the explanation........

I've really been looking forward to playing ____ and was wondering if I might be able to get the karma to do so, rather than going the special app route.

Thanks for taking the time to consider it.

That will absolutely not get you in trouble. It may yield karma. It may yield a polite response as to why you're not getting any. DEFINITELY you will NOT get your brainz eaten.

Bleh. I don't have karma, and I don't care about getting any either. I could care less if I'm noticed as well, because that's not what I came here for. I came here to roleplay and have fun. I can do that with rangers and thugs or mercenaries. If my playstyle or emoting or "ICness" doesn't wow the imms Akaramu, that's just too bad.

I'm a latenight player like you though. Don't get bent out of shape. Life's a garden - Dig it.

Quote from: "Akaramu"

Last I knew, asking for karma was a good way to not get any, and wanting karma was a bad attitude to have. But different people have a different opinion on the matter. IMHO, the only people I ever heard say that karma does not matter were the ones who already had it, and were able to play almost any role they liked at any time.

There is a huge difference between asking that your prior pc's be reveiwed and present rp watched as you've been playing for x amount of time, have an interest in a karma role and feel that you can handle it, and demanding karma because you feel you deserve it.

Quote from: "Anonymous"Bleh. I don't have karma, and I don't care about getting any either. I could care less if I'm noticed as well, because that's not what I came here for. I came here to roleplay and have fun. I can do that with rangers and thugs or mercenaries. If my playstyle or emoting or "ICness" doesn't wow the imms Akaramu, that's just too bad.

I'm a latenight player like you though. Don't get bent out of shape. Life's a garden - Dig it.

I think more people should think this way.  But if this thread has proved anything, it's proved that there are some people who are more worried about karma than they should be, and it is taking away some of their enjoyment from the game.  Yes, the karma system is not perfect - nothing is perfect.  But as someone once told me "Karma is for wussies.  If you want to play one of those races or classes you don't have the karma for, special app it."

Quote from: "Akaramu"
Last I knew, asking for karma was a good way to not get any, and wanting karma was a bad attitude to have. But different people have a different opinion on the matter. IMHO, the only people I ever heard say that karma does not matter were the ones who already had it, and were able to play almost any role they liked at any time.

Not at all, emailing the staff and asking them to have a look at your account and your current play, is just a heads up to us that you'd like to be reviewed. Staff is pretty happy to oblige and respond to these sorts of requests and start a dialogue of the outcome, weither it results in an award of karma or not.

Quote from: "Akaramu"
And my last special app never got a response after 2 months and 2 reminders. I am getting the strong impression that the imm doing special apps gets pretty burned out on them after maybe half a year until someone else takes special apps over. The unfairness of the karma system would be no problem if special apps always got answered in under a month. But after one month of waiting, the excitement over a cool new idea just goes away.

I find this to be an odd and weird exception. Perhaps emails were lost or something. Even if we do reject a special app. Notice would be sent out.

Quote from: "Akaramu"
The karma system is unfair. I dont believe that an european player with 3 hours of time during off-peak hours will get as much karma as the US timezone student with 10 hours a day, given they play equally well. If they are unlucky enough to only have short lived roles despite being careful, the chances diminish further.

It may be unlikely that you will be as watched, but a request for review could easily balance that.

Quote from: "Akaramu"
I'm also not sure an imm will assign karma to a player they dislike, even if that player does well. If this is true, how could the system possibly be fair?

Well, it's not true. First, there are a lot of different imms, with -very- different views on players and clans and everything. Though if the player over all is a problem, no they might not garner karma, but if we are all in agrrement that a player is a problem.. Honestly, they usually are.

Something that we strive very hard for, is to not let personal feelings effect our dealings with players. I may not like what you do, but that does not mean that you are a bad roleplayer. I have seen Imm's that -hate- what a PC is doing, and in the end, award the player for playing a good character.

Quote from: "Akaramu"
Karma and trust: Karma players are not necessarily more trustworthy than players with 0 karma. In all my time of playing, I have encountered one single player who did not even mention the tiniest little thing that could be considered IC information OOCly. Its all about who gets caught and who doesn't. But I'm not going to name names.

That's true in life as well. You may be an upstanding citizen by day and a serial killer by night, but if you never get caught you aren't going to jail.

We don't monitor things like AIM or IRC channel or anything like that. So the only way we have to know if people are doing bad things, is if they are doing them in clear OOC fashions Ic'ly. How else can we judge?

I don't see that last one as a fair statement even.  Sorry.

Quote from: "Akaramu"
An idea to possibly improve the karma system: Instead of rewarding players sort of randomly (based on one well-played scene that happened to be observed, or maybe 6 months of running a leader) have karma assigned after certain periods of time IF there have been no observations / notes that the player did anything that made them less trustworthy.

I'd actually like this if it instead of instantly awarded karma, it just raises a priority review flag on the account if it shows no karma and no notes.

Quote from: "Malifaxis"I don't have uber karma.  I'm happy with my roles.  Can I come up with endless magicker concepts?  Hell yeah, magickers rule!  Can I come up with endless d-elf concepts?  Of course!  D-elves are the best ever!  Can I come up with endless noble concepts?  Naturally... nothing beats nobles!  Can I come up with endless twisted templar personalities?  Not even a challenge.  Can I come up with endless emotes for how grains of sand fly up my nose?  Yeah, cause I'm just that kinda guy.  I'm thrilled with the entire game.

And after all those great ideas... you can actually play any of the roles you've developed concepts for, anytime you want? In that case you have all the karma / experience (in the case of noble and templar roles) you need. If I had not found a happy new home, I'd envy you. :)

And Qetesh, thank you for the kind reply. Appreciated.

Just one thing:

Quote from: "Qetesh"
We don't monitor things like AIM or IRC channel or anything like that. So the only way we have to know if people are doing bad things, is if they are doing them in clear OOC fashions Ic'ly. How else can we judge?

I don't see that last one as a fair statement even.  Sorry.

I did not find this to be true, in my experience. I have not ever, not once, unless I was on drugs and forgot (I dont take drugs), let any OOC knowledge influence my characters. To the best of my knowledge I always paid close attention to this. But despite it being totally unrelated to my PC and her actions and reasoning (and I could have proven why), I have been scolded for OOC communication. It felt like in the end, it cost me a role which meant a lot to me.

My point is that when players 'report' someone else for OOC communication, I'd say at least half of the time it is the result of some infighting among players with the result of wanting to rat the other one out to hurt them. With nearly everyone communicating OOCly, the only ones you will 'catch' in this way (if there was no abuse visible ICly) are victims of player infighting. Because friends surely will not report on each other.

Personally, in my experience as a player, I do my very best to avoid speaking with my OOC friends, (and I have quite a few) About anything IC going on with my PC's and I prefer that they don't tell me about theirs.
I also (like most Imms) Keep the fact that I am an imm very quite, and most people I know, if they know, don't ask me about it.

All and all I preferred never to know who people play because I've always felt I don't do a very good job at separating the PC's from the players. Also once you know who someone plays and you get chatty, it almost always boils down to grips about who you like and don't like,  and who did this and that. It just ends up being bad.

You really never know what things you say to someone OOCly with "trust" will wind up in someone else's ear.  And what you may think is harmless and small or just discussed in light conversation, might end up ruining a plot for someone else you don't even talk to.

I don't know what your experience was Akaramu, but I will say, it takes a lot of Imms to agree on it and a good deal of review to confront a player with an OOC communication issue. It's never a willy nilly thing, because the last thing you want to do is wrongfully accuse someone of OOC issues. The players think we eat enough brains already. Yes, lost of people talk about playing, and players and plots.. But we can really only reprimand those who end up having it effect their play. And that might not be fair, but that's the way it is.

If you really want to avoid the chance of facing something like that, its best just not to talk about anything involving the game with other players. I dunno, talk about sports or something.

As for impatience with special apps, in regards to Jolly Green Giant's post....

I apped for a templar position once, while I was still playing a different character. That app was approved by the IMM responsible for templars in that location.

By the time my current PC had been killed, that IMM had left the staff and was replaced. The new IMM advertised that they were seeking people to fill a templar role. I sent an e-mail to that IMM letting them know that I was still interested in the role, and that it had already been approved.

The new IMM rejected the app - the main thrust of the rejection was - and I quote:

"Frankly, you displease me."

So I did -exactly- as you suggested JGG, and was even approved, but by the time I was actually able to fill the role, AND the role was available, it was staffed by someone who just plain didn't like me. I realize this isn't a karma situation, but the general principal still applies. I would rather earn the karma and know in advance that the staff trusts me for the role, than to special app only to discover that the IMM doesn't think I should have the role (no matter the reason).

Quote from: "Bestatte""Frankly, you displease me."

Bestatte, you really need to let shit like that go. Don't take it personally. This is a game, and if you feel someone is "wronging" you, just let it go and kill with kindness. You can't be friends with everyone, but you can earn their respect. I personally feel that if an immortal has issues with
-any- player on an ooc level, they should not let it affect their motivations for roles and such. But who am I to say that; I'm not in charge of the game. I'm sure that over time, if there truly is animosity between a staffer and yourself, time will heal the wounds.

-fj

"Frankly, you displease me."  is pretty funny.  That had to be an off-handed remark or a small joke about how the app wasn't suitable.

It was probably literal. On the bright side, the guy was upfront and honest about it instead of passive-aggressively beefing up the NPCs as they killed you.  :wink:

Quote from: "Qetesh"I don't know what your experience was Akaramu, but I will say, it takes a lot of Imms to agree on it and a good deal of review to confront a player with an OOC communication issue. It's never a willy nilly thing, because the last thing you want to do is wrongfully accuse someone of OOC issues. The players think we eat enough brains already. Yes, lost of people talk about playing, and players and plots.. But we can really only reprimand those who end up having it effect their play. And that might not be fair, but that's the way it is.

Actually, I think that is fair. Or would be, if the staff really only came down on those who, without a doubt, let those OOC issues affect their play.

It is not fair when a player is getting that stamp without being told why, and without a chance to explain why their doing was in fact perfectly IC, and what  the thought processes involved were. I requested a hearing on the matter and was turned down, which is still bugging me whenever I happen to remember it.

I have let it go, FJ. JGG's post reminded me of it, as one example to support the reason why special apps might frustrate players.

As for the incident itself, CW, no it wasn't a joke. I had asked for an explanation of the rejection note because I didn't understand it (that wasn't the only thing said). I was told that I am trusted to play responsibly, I am a good roleplayer, my OOC interactions with other players appear to be generally positive, and a few other things..all things that seem to me to be criteria for getting approved. And yet those were the reasons I was rejected, according to the explanation. I decided then that there was no point in pursuing it further because it was just gonna result in a staff member and a player both being pissed off.

It never worked itself out, but that staff member is no longer a staff member so it isn't an issue anymore. It -still- is one valid example of why I would prefer not to special app for something that I wasn't recruited for or asked to try. The point being, I would really hate to spend a month waiting - developing another character during the interim, worrying about whether or not I'd have to retire my current PC, only to find out that the staff member had no intention of approving my app in the first place. I come to play, not to wait for something special to come knocking at my door. So I play what I like to play, what I already have karma to play (most of my roles don't require any karma at all), and on occasion I'll send word to the staff that I might be interested in a special role IF they agree that I might be a good fit for it. Only then would I apply.

Plenty of special applications go through just fine, Bestatte.  Your bad experience sounds like it sucks, but shouldn't form the basis for someone else's willingness to give the system a try.

However, there you have it, folks.  Bestatte has decided to be the testimonial voice of the occasional human failing in the special application system.  In case we didn't know it before, we're now acutely aware that there's a possibility of anything involving human beings to have imperfections.  I sincerely hope that you don't use her lone example as the reason to never give special applications or sponsored roles a try for yourself; you're doing yourself a disfavor if you do.

I don't think there was any reason for you to be snide about it JGG. As I said twice already - it was an explanation of why *I* don't like special apping, which was in response to your saying you didn't understand why people wouldn't want to special app.

You asked, I answered. That's how discussions work.

*I* don't like special apping because *I* would prefer to have rejections sent to me withing 24 hours, rather than have to wait a whole month anticipating a possible acceptance, and then to be disappointed.

This doesn't only happen to me. EVERYONE who is rejected with a special app has to wait up to a month, or longer, to find out that they were rejected. I - me, myself, personally, speaking for no one else or on anyone else's behalf, with absolutely no semblance of authority whatseover..do not like waiting to be rejected.

Hope that clears things up for ya.

Folks, this kind of bickering is what started (for me, at least) my more aggressive policy of board-moderation, and is causing me to regret that I didn't lock this thread about 3 pages ago.

Please.  Stop it.

-- X

Okay, to get back on topic, (hopefully), I think the karma system is pretty good. There are two things, (which have been previously mentioned), that would maybe help make the karma system even better. One thing is independent/clanless pcs getting watched a bit more. The other, Akaramu brought up. The idea that over time, with no bad account notes, karma be automatically given out. I'm not sure that's exactly the best way to do it, but there's something about that idea that I really like. Not only would it satisfy the players who do a good job roleplaying but for whatever reason aren't getting the attention they deserve, but it would also free up the immortals some from the obligation of having to watch players "do their thing." Not that it isn't fun to watch people mudsexing or anything. ;)

AFTERTHOUGHT: Perhaps the answer lies somewhere between Akaramu and Qetesh's posts? I don't think people should just be handed karma because they've been playing forever.

I find it interesting that most in this discussion that have cried the loudest are the specific people who have been given multiple chances to prove they can play responsibly and intelligently.  

TIME AND TIME again these specific players have shown they are not capable of handling even the most mundane roles. The key word in the karma system is trust. If I don't trust you, I'm not going to award karma. Its that simple. Trust is something earned and the majority of gripers on this thread are the ones that are basically demanding recognition. Well... I've watched you roleplay. It ain't all that. In fact, how well you RP is only part of the equation. Whats more, I can say that some of the gripers are actually CAPABLE of gaining really high karma, were they mature enough to stop and listen to what they are being encouraged to do by whichever imm is working with them. This isn't what happens. Impatience takes over and the griping begins.

An example..

Player A is given a chance to play a role and to prove they aren't going to act retarded anymore (since they had been up to that point). Player A does really well for a few weeks, then suddenly slips back into old habits. Even worse, the role given to player A is not being played appropriately and now not only is Player A confused, but they are setting an example to players B and C who they have been interacting with who now think that Player A's behavior is the norm for that particular role. So now all sorts of damage has to be repaired, and player A wonders why they aren't invited back.

We try to encourage all players, and I can say without a shadow of doubt that we've bent over backwards for some of the whiners in this thread, attempting to get them back on track. The failures they have had are obviously frustrating or they wouldn't be posting here with such vehemence.

Play responsibly.
Play maturely.
Stick to the role agreed on.
Do not demand anything, ask politely and do not badger anyone for replies.
Know your documentation and your game world.
Don't be a smartass. (This is a real stumblng block)

Quote from: "skeetdaddle"The idea that over time, with no bad account notes, karma be automatically given out. I'm not sure that's exactly the best way to do it, but there's something about that idea that I really like.

I don't think I'd award someone karma solely based on how long they've gone without a bad incident.  That's good for them, but it doesn't automatically mean they can be trusted for guild X.  However, it can still be an influence though in the decision.  "Bob has improved a little AND hasn't screwed up in 6 months.  Both of those together is a reason for a karma point".

I also agree with everything Bhag just said.  Some of the people who complain the most about the way it is are the very people who we've given roles to, more than once, and who've proven they can't be trusted with that role.  Maybe they were given a super noble role, but then told all their friends OOC'ly what the secret documentation said (yes, it has happened more than once).  Maybe they were given a powerful mage role, but all they did was sit around and sleep/wake/stand/cast for hours and hours without a shred of roleplaying (yes, it has happened mroe than once).  

Disclaimer:  I'm not saying that the people who have spoken their disagreement in this thread have done those things, though, by any means.

Quote from: "Bhagharva"I find it interesting that most in this discussion that have cried the loudest are the specific people who have been given multiple chances to prove they can play responsibly and intelligently.  

TIME AND TIME again these specific players have shown they are not capable of handling even the most mundane roles.

I dont feel adressed by this, so I still find the karma system unfair.

Do you really feel that simply telling them it is unfair is going to get them to change it?

I for one think the karma system is fair. How else could you go about it anyways, really?

I have a little bit of karma, but not much. In fact the karma I do have I got very early on, and haven't gotten any yet. So what. I don't care. I'd like to have a little more so I can play that mul sorcerer, and well, I already was accused of playing the elven mindbender...but...So what.
I'm sure the imms don't want to give me karma because they're afraid I'll out do them ;). Ahem, I mean.....

Really though, if I was an imm I think I'd be pretty insulted by this thread. And yet they've still all had amazingly civil, and insightful responses.

My suggestion to some of you would be to play with the attitude of 'fuck the imms'. Not in an aggresive sort of way...but quit worrying about pleasing and/or displeasing them in your goal of karma. Just enjoy your characters and play with the characters you meet. You'll have a much better time that way.

Quote from: "Akaramu"

Quote from: "Bhagharva"I find it interesting that most in this discussion that have cried the loudest are the specific people who have been given multiple chances to prove they can play responsibly and intelligently.  

TIME AND TIME again these specific players have shown they are not capable of handling even the most mundane roles.

I dont feel adressed by this, so I still find the karma system unfair.

I am sure if someone wanted to target you with this Akaramu, they would have. It was a general statement. We've all been pretty good with the responses on this thread.

As for it being unfair because you are a European player??  Meh.. Like I said earlier. Being an off peak player has disadvantages. If you think you are worthy or karma, ask to be reviewed. Done, fixed.

As for it being unfair because you feel you were slighted for something? Meh.. again. That has nothing to do with the karma system. That has do to with whatever incident you were involved in and is a personal issue.

As for you thinking that we should just delve out karma on the basis that you have been playing a year and have no bad account notes.  Meh, again.  I like the idea of a review flag for this being automatically generated. But no way should Karma ever be given out without review of the account. Just because the player thinks they are a good player, doesn't mean they are.


I'd appreciate it if the players did not lay the burden on us to review –all- the accounts in our database for Karma.  As is, we do our best to look at accounts, watch players and award Karma when we feel it is deserved. All it takes is a simple request to have us give you a look over if you feel you haven't been looked at in a while. Or just put on your review flag.  If you feel that is too much for you to do, Meh.. don't play, what do you want us to say?

I'm not a special little snowflake and neither is anyone else. I was always taught that you get nothing in life if you stand around waiting for it.

And as a side note.. Whineing does little to help your cause as well.

Actually. Now I'll jump on the other side of the thread.  :twisted:

After a few of my magicker chars...and after my most recent one. I asked for a review of how well I played a magicker and if I made an improvements. (I ask for my account comments quite often, but that invovles simply looking it up and copy/pasting Im sure, although it does have to be read)

But...I emailed who had been my clan imm, the unclanned magickers imm, and my last clan imm. (I had been in a clan for a brief moment, and into another afterwards) And the mud.             I asked that I was still slightly unsure of playing that and I wanted either a simple pat on the back or any suggestions.

I'm very open to listening to advice, but I got -no- response. Sometimes things like those would make you want to prattle off...or on..hm. Although often I give the game a break, or when things in real life are more pressing Arm is only a game. And afterall I get that the staff is paid, they're only more dedicated armers.

So blah blah blah- look..I gotta go to work. So I'm gonna shutup, and I'm sure every staff member has work/ well...some...have a life ;).

Quote from: "Dracul"

I'm very open to listening to advice, but I got -no- response. Sometimes things like those would make you want to prattle off...or on..hm.

I understand where you're coming from. E-mailing and asking for advice, etc and no response can be disheartening. But I understand people are busy and requests like that can be quite a low priority. But sometimes feedback can be wonderful in the way that it could improve the game for the player and those who interact with them. It's always good to know where to improve, constructive critisicm is always A+++ in my book. -Only- as long as it's constructive.  :wink:

If we're having trouble getting feedback and responses on a timely basis, maybe it's time to take on more imm staff?

Managing the entire mud seems like a huge job, and maybe people are just getting spread too thin.

Also keep in mind that asking for feedback on how a character was played after that character is dead is not the most effective way to go about it. (Sorry if that is not the case Dracul, but your post made it sound that way.)  If the imms never watched that character, or didn't watch them enough to get a consistent feel, then there's no way we can offer any insight.  I have clannies I watch almost every day, and others whose playing times rarely coincide with mine, so I have little insight into their characters.

In general, I really don't have much to say if you're doing well anyway, other than a "good job, keep it up" and maybe pointing out one thing I really like or one thing I question.  On the other hand, if I think you're making huge mistakes, I will generally say so.  So usually, no news is good news. :)

Quote from: "jstorrie"If we're having trouble getting feedback and responses on a timely basis, maybe it's time to take on more imm staff?

Managing the entire mud seems like a huge job, and maybe people are just getting spread too thin.

Or, maybe some of us need to stop spamming the mud with every little inane idea or comment we have and in doing so free up the staff for more important matters. Char reviews and important matters are a different story, but these -should- be few and far between.

This isn't meant as a flame or jab at anyone, but I see this quite often: "Hi there, I sent three emails to the Mud last week, and I did not  hear a reply on any of them, so I sent a reminder. I still heard nothing, so I sent another email. What's the problem here?"

Maybe if some of us stopped the frivolous nattering at the staff, they would have more time to concentrate on their given duties instead of holding our hands.

Now, I'm sure alot of the emails are quite important, to you, and I know that the Immortals like to be kept informed of things. But, I myself have never required a ten email correspondance from an Immortal. Hell, I'm pretty sure that in my three years here I've only mailed the mud a handful of times, and only then because I had to. Has it lessened my Mud experience in any way? No. In fact, I think I'm richer for -not- needing the Immortals comment on every little thing I do or every little idea that I have.

I usually know what is acceptable. I also know that if I have something that is borderline I should mail the Imms and then go about my business, because compared to some matters in the mud, my headless/Mul/sorcerer application is worthy of the back-burner and little more.

I also have a large stash of Karma and relatively few bad notes on my account. Are these related with me not mailing the account or wishing up every chance I get? Probably not, but I'm sure it looks better to the Immortals than the other accounts around that are constantly mailing in to tell them about the UBER FUCKING COOL idea for a mul{Karma lacking} they had, or the fancy new obsidian knife desc they wrote up that is pretty much the same as 100 others already ingame.

I'll be the first to admit I know little of the staff's workings, but whenever I sit down to write up an email to the Mud, I try to make it as clear and concise as possible, just because I know how busy these people really are. And before I hit that 'send' button, I ask myself: Do the staff -really- need to hear about this, or can I bear down and deal with it myself? Chances are you can, and by doing so you may free up Bill the Immortal to watch you and I roleplay, or even join in, which he can't do if he's answering 100 frivolous emails.

Just something to think on. Again, it wasn't directed at anyone or meant to be combative at all. Just putting it out there. Keep your Immortals informed, but remember that you are only one of their many wards.

-WP

The purpose of creating and filling staff positions isn't to provide feedback to players.  The very, very last thought with which staff members should be occupying themselves is of policing the players.  We watch you because we need to know what's going on in our clans to administer them, not to try to figure out if you deserve more karma or less.

We try to provide feedback when we can, and only when we have something useful to say.  Oftentimes, an e-mail sent to us by a player asking for feedback receives no reply because we may not specifically watch that character very closely.  Usually, this is a good sign that we aren't particularly concerned with your play.  If you want specific feedback on a particular event that you think you may have misplayed, include the (carefully edited) log in your e-mail with an up-front synopsis and your questions.

-- X

Xygax wrote:

QuoteThe purpose of creating and filling staff positions isn't to provide feedback to players. The very, very last thought with which staff members should be occupying themselves is of policing the players. We watch you because we need to know what's going on in our clans to administer them, not to try to figure out if you deserve more karma or less.

Would this be such a bad thing? Having a few people on the staff dedicated to ensuring a quality role-playing environment by watching the players and awarding/stripping karma where necessary and whom might also provide additional npc interaction for players? Seems like an idea worth considering at least. Maybe they couldn't even officially award/strip karma, but just provide insightful recommendations to a staff member authorized to do such. Like a low-level imm, or something. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like this would really help bring the game world alive for everybody, encourage good roleplay by setting good examples with npcs, and give the staff a much better idea of who they might want keep an eye on - (whether for ill or good). I realize such a position would require a large amount of trust, but if the right people could be found for the job, why not?

Please note: This is just an idea. It's not meant to make anyone mad! A response would be cool, but I notice that quite a few tempers have been flaring up on this thread, so I ask that any responses be put respectfully.

Quote from: "Qetesh"I am sure if someone wanted to target you with this Akaramu, they would have. It was a general statement. We've all been pretty good with the responses on this thread.

I do realize it was general and not aimed at me. I just wanted to say that sometimes, the staff make mistakes, and sometimes I wish this would be admitted as a possibility instead of 'we are right, you are wrong, the discussion ends here'. I love the staff and I still have a lot of respect for you guys. But you are players, players are human beings, and human beings sometimes make mistakes even if 5 of them agree on something. And sometimes those mistakes make the system unfair.

Quote from: "Qetesh"As for it being unfair because you are a European player??  Meh.. Like I said earlier. Being an off peak player has disadvantages. If you think you are worthy or karma, ask to be reviewed. Done, fixed.

I wish I had known this a year ago. I was told (by experienced players, not by any imms)that the staff can 'smell' people who want karma, and as soon as they are detected as wanting karma they are pretty sure to never get any. I was honestly afraid of asking.

Quote from: "Qetesh"As for it being unfair because you feel you were slighted for something? Meh.. again. That has nothing to do with the karma system. That has do to with whatever incident you were involved in and is a personal issue.

It has something to do with the karma system when unfair account notes influence a karma decision, or a role that would help the player earn trust (except that they dont get the role because of said unfair account note).

Quote from: "Qetesh"As for you thinking that we should just delve out karma on the basis that you have been playing a year and have no bad account notes.  Meh, again.  I like the idea of a review flag for this being automatically generated. But no way should Karma ever be given out without review of the account. Just because the player thinks they are a good player, doesn't mean they are.

I never thought such, I dont agree with handing out karma for nothing but lack of bad notes, either. But there should be something other than the current randomness, maybe a regular review after half a year, with review flags being set when a player 'slipped' and was hardly watched at all for whatever reason, despite having played quite a lot.

Quote from: "Qetesh"I'd appreciate it if the players did not lay the burden on us to review –all- the accounts in our database for Karma.  As is, we do our best to look at accounts, watch players and award Karma when we feel it is deserved. All it takes is a simple request to have us give you a look over if you feel you haven't been looked at in a while. Or just put on your review flag.  If you feel that is too much for you to do, Meh.. don't play, what do you want us to say?

I'm sure I'm not the only player who was not aware of those 'solutions'. I always thought that putting review on is mostly for new players, and if more than a few players had review on it would make the imms go crazy over the amount of people having review on at the same time (and the watch work involved with it). For this, and other reasons, I have been very shy to use review at all.

And if it is such a burden, then maybe the system is flawed.

Quote from: "Qetesh"I'm not a special little snowflake and neither is anyone else. I was always taught that you get nothing in life if you stand around waiting for it.

And as a side note.. Whineing does little to help your cause as well.

Was I whining? Okay... I thought I was pointing out flaws, and tried to be constructive by suggesting an improvement to the karma system. Maybe I'm a little sour, but if the biggest fanbois turn into sour ex players after a year or two (I'm not the only one), maybe something went wrong somewhere, and I'm not sure this is 100% only the players responsibility.

Not speaking up on the issue and not knowing that I could didnt help my cause either.

Sending two polite reminders on my special app didnt help me get a response on it after 2 months.

And if I was still playing, I'd probably still be afraid of speaking up. Realizing that I was 'whining' helps me remember why.

To address a few more things here and this will be my last post on this thread.

First to repeat this again,  Karma is awarded for these reasons.

:arrow:  Degree of maturity and responsibility as a role-player, as evidenced by playing roles 'realistically.'
:arrow:  Knowledge of the game world, and an appreciation of the way in which the various races, guilds, and so on, interact.
:arrow:  Role-playing skill, as evidenced by role-playing in such a way as to show that they are really involved in the game world, and also enriching the game world for other players.

The staff doesn't look for karma sniffers, as was suggested. We just really don't care that much, we aren't evil, nor are we brainz eaters. Follow the guidelines, you'll most likely, eventually get Karma.

Are you the type that needs feedback?

:arrow: Review Flag See here (http://www.armageddon.org/help/index_frames.html) Scroll down to review on the left hand colum.

There is what it does. No, it is not the "I want Karma" button, but it will alert the staff that you want feedback on your playing. It also might take a while for us to get back to you on it. No people who want to be reviewed don't turn us off. Why would we be upset at someone that cares enough about their play to request feedback?

If you feel you've been overlooked and you are doing an absolutely super job and have added to the Rp environment yet feel you have been overlooked? Email us at:  mud@ginka.armageddon.org or your clann Imms. Here is a list of who they are. (http://www.armageddon.org/ic/)

Still Confused, not sure how to garner Karma? Go back through this thread. There are lots of links in here to more info. Xygax (http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=147437&highlight=#147437) put up a few really good ones in the beginning.

Here are the good ways to get Karma stripped and not get any:

:arrow: never use emotes
:arrow: skillmax
:arrow: Suiciding
:arrow: Unacceptable OOC Communication See here (http://www.armageddon.org/general/ooc.html)
:arrow: Not Following the General Rules (http://www.armageddon.org/general/rules.html)


I personally don't think the system is flawed, the staff is busy and as the doc's state, Karma should not be your main goal, enjoying the game should be. That is our main goal as well, creating an enjoyable playing environment and keeping it running smoothly,  not making sure that everyone has their fair and appropriate amount of race and guild options.

If you are enjoying the game, playing it as it was meant to be played, setting good examples and enhancing the world, the latter should follow, not feeling that, see above.

If your enjoyment solely depends on you playing a character concept that you just love but don't have the Karma for? Send in a special app.

:arrow: Guidelines here (http://www.armageddon.org/general/special.php):


With that, I am done with this thread, I can see little else that could be said by staff that hasn't already.

Quote from: "Akaramu"

Quote from: "Qetesh"I'd appreciate it if the players did not lay the burden on us to review –all- the accounts in our database for Karma.  As is, we do our best to look at accounts, watch players and award Karma when we feel it is deserved. All it takes is a simple request to have us give you a look over if you feel you haven't been looked at in a while. Or just put on your review flag.  If you feel that is too much for you to do, Meh.. don't play, what do you want us to say?

I'm sure I'm not the only player who was not aware of those 'solutions'. I always thought that putting review on is mostly for new players, and if more than a few players had review on it would make the imms go crazy over the amount of people having review on at the same time (and the watch work involved with it). For this, and other reasons, I have been very shy to use review at all..

This is a very interesting thread.  The GDB is full of a lot of contradictions and guesses as to how things work.  I remember reading early on that the review flag was rarely looked at, I also didn't like the idea that the simple act of me putting it on would would make -me- aware of it's presence and make me treat the game differently.  

I was given the impression that all players were looked at over time, and karma was handed out as the IMMs saw fit.  The comment that "no news is good news"  didn't even occur to me.  To me it was, if no one said anything to me, and I recieved no karma, it must be due to the fact that I had done nothing karma worthy.  The idea of "asking" to be looked at because I thought I deserved karma was rather foriegn to me, it seemed a bit crass and presumptous.
 
In fact the times that I was awarded karma was after playing some high profile roles, then after I died and noticed there was no karma awarded, my assumption was that once again I must have not done anything karma worthy.  When sending the email to the clan IMMs anouncing my characters death, I had asked how I had done, in my usual roundabout way.  Based on this question I had been awarded karma, but was always under the impression that I was lucky in getting it, because, well if it wasn't there already, I must have not done anything karma worthy.

Communication in vacumn is a tricky thing, what one side "assumes" may be entirely different that what the other does. In my eyes the karma system is fine.  It -may- be the communication that could use a little tweaking.  This thread has been more enlighting than I thought it would be, considering much of it was a personal gripefest.  I seriously doubt -I- will be running around asking for karma, but at least I won't fret so much wondering what I am doing wrong when nothing is auto-magickly awarded.

Once again, thanks to Qetesh to the help- and insightful post, I'm sure it will help many players. I wish I had seen something like that when I first started.  :)

As for being happy with mundane roles... that would have been great. But I kept having one awesome idea after the next involving (insert magicker type here), and then a half-giant, and then... and those ideas would haunt me, I would daydream about them, dream up little details about the characters. It was frustrating without karma. I wish I could have ordered my mind to come up with more awesome mundane PC ideas instead.

:(

Everything Qetesh mentioned is documented on the website. It's nothing you wouldn't have known if you had read the FAQ, the newbie guide, and the top 40 help files list.

You can't fault the game, or the staff, for your neglect in reading just those few things that are readily available to anyone without much navigation of the docs at all.

Since you don't play anymore, there's really no need to defend the game, or the staff, to you. You chose to leave it, and there's nothing on this topic that really needs all that much improvement on.

I will say however - that the review system isn't as cut and dried as Qetesh says it is. I had my review flag on for around an entire year, and received only a couple of comments in my first 2 months.

I had also read on the GDB from some of the staff (It might've been Sanvean, but it was a long time ago and I can't remember), that staffers don't really pay much attention to that review flag anyway.

Quote from: "Bestatte"I will say however - that the review system isn't as cut and dried as Qetesh says it is. I had my review flag on for around an entire year, and received only a couple of comments in my first 2 months.

I think your expectations aren't set right.  Out of the hundreds of people who play on a regular basis, guessing by who lists, I don't think expecting more than few comments from the review flag is all that realistic.

This whole karma/review thing is a strange situation.  Staffers seem reluctant to comment to players about their play for what seems to be concerns about being perceived as roleplay judges.  Players want karma and some idea whether or not their play is adequate or daresay good and only staffers are in a position to provide that.

I think the root of a lot of negative feelings that get brought up, from time to time, are due to the idea that a player generally only hears from the staff when they've done something wrong.  Or at least that's when the staff is heard most loudly.

It's only human nature to be more motivated to fix unacceptable behavior, and the game is better off because of that effort on the staff's part but on the flip side it's only human nature to want to know whether you're doing things right.  That being said I can't imagine going around watching players and writing them emails when they done good is all that exciting a use of time.  I guess I'm sort of paralyzed by seeing what I perceive to be both sides of the issue.  I don't have an answer other than to say work closely with your clan immortals.  Playing your heart out of a role, dealing with IC situations realistically and keeping an open channel of communication between you and your clan imm will get you more feedback than roleplaying for the benefit of the invisible karma-giving eye in the sky ever will.

I should note, that the year's worth of review time I had flagged on encompassed only three PCs. I received comments about the first PC, and nothing from the other two.

It wasn't until I asked for my account notes a year after I gave up the review thing, that I learned that staffers had actually commented about my RP. I would've liked to have known these things -while- I was playing those characters, rather than a year later when there wasn't anything I could do to improve my RP of those PCs, or feel proud about the nice things some of them had to say.

Quote from: "Xygax"The very, very last thought with which staff members should be occupying themselves is of policing the players.  We watch you because we need to know what's going on in our clans to administer them, not to try to figure out if you deserve more karma or less.-- X

I really like this quote.  The staff exists, in my opinion, to keep the game going.  To maintain the quality of everything that has been accomplished so far, and to take the game in new, logical, directions that are both enjoyable (though not necessarily so from an ic perspective) and match the timbre of the amazing events that have unfolded in Zalanthan history so far.  I have never had any problems with the Imms in this regard.

Though I might be viewed by some as a "staff favorite", this has never appeared to me as the case (Though there are a few staffers who are -my- favorite).  Most of my options have not been granted through the Karma system, but rather by me special apping (and occassionally literally waiting months while bouncing emails) and then being allowed to keep the roles solely because of the way I performed in them.  As such, I have mixed feelings on Karma.  I was never noticed (beyond my omnipresent GDB presence) for Karma until I stood up, said "I can take this role, let me show you what I can do." and did it.  One month into the game I didn't really feel comfortable special apping for my first templar, and it took quite some time to work with Nessalin and get me ready to play one, but I apped anyway.  After that, I came up with numerous concepts for various types over the years (and yes, it did take -years-) and gained access to other options.  Not because I felt 'special', but because I believed I had a great role to play, and eventually was able to convince an Immortal of that.  Pretty sure I -still- don't have access to all the available options, don't really want them... I've never come up with a good sorceror concept, never wanted to..

I felt honored that the imms (staff, whatever) liked the way I played, and tackled even the most basic roles with the same fervor as those that took me months to obtain.  This told me that I was a part of the world, and when I was playing high-profile roles, I took it upon myself to be a mini-Imm, to help break in new players (and joined when the Helper program took off), to help with clan npc's, documentation, and most importantly, to provide for the players exactly what I would expect would be a Storyteller's job.  To bring them so far in that every time they logged on it was a different and epic experience.  Cleaning dungeon cells became great joy for all of my underlings' players (though not necessarily their pc's) simply because of the synergy we created.  (Ignore the loaded term, please)  I honestly feel that by doing any part of that, you will gain notice.  Unless you're throwing kamehameha(sp)'s into your fighting routine, it'll likely be good notice.

I remember when the review flag first went into place, and also remember that I rarely to never turned it on.  Only when I felt I was unsure of my character's place in the world (desert elf magicker comes to mind) and wanted honest feedback about whether or not I was behaving realistically, which the staff was often too happy to provide.  It did take a while, but I felt it was worth it, not to gain their notice, but to know that I was playing the most realistic Zalanthan character I could.  For me, it has never been about the classes, or races (god, I hate playing half-giants)... but Karma is about trust.  

Can this player be trusted to begin their -own- character, without any more staff intervention than yea or nay, and play it realistically within the guidelines of the world itself?  That, to me, is the essence of the Karma system.  And... it is hit and miss, to be certain.  I've never been much for outdoor characters, explorers... heck after what, close to 9 years around the game I couldn't tell you where to find the little secretive stuff that every semi-experienced ranger knows because I don't care.  I've often played a city-dweller and I thrive in leadership (or solo secretive) positions.  Those are what I enjoy, and they are often high-profile and occasionally require immtervention.  I've been slapped on the wrist nearly as many times as I've been complimented, and I appreciate that.  I play what I enjoy, not because I simply have (or don't have) the Karma, but because I feel this concept best serves to do what I like best... play a living, breathing character.

If you are a solo hunter player by heart, there's still plenty of ways you can show yourself trustworthy.  Play realistically.  Think of the world first, your own player ambitions second.  Don't wait for the Immortals to do everything.  If you feel that the desert needs new sorts of creatures, don't whine on the GDB about there being too few types; write up a few and send them in.  Then go post on the gdb that you're helping to head up a new set of lifeforms (or flesh out existing ones) and could use some help from other players.  This is how you both help the game, and gain the kind of positive attention you seem to be seeking.  

Some of the most amazing characters I've run across, even with my entirely city-bound characters, have been solo types who have stumbled into my path.  They might not have the bravado of a Tor Warlord, or the influence of a Merchant House concubine, but they still present a necessary role in the world, one which I am always more happy to encounter than Scarred Warrior #4 (whose family was killed by raiders and he wants to be a mercenary more than life itself).  The more you give, the more you get.  Give a little... don't look to be helped... help.  Karma is an apt term, in that it reflects that feeling.

Lord Templar Hard Nose chooses to end his comment on that note, hoping the less defensive posters will take at least some of it to heart, and knowing no one wants to hear his life story.

Karma is an immortal's way of patting you on the back and saying, "Well done."

Quote from: "Xygax"The purpose of creating and filling staff positions isn't to provide feedback to players.  The very, very last thought with which staff members should be occupying themselves is of policing the players.

Actually, I tend to disagree with Xygax here, a little bit on his last statement.  I agree that the purpose of creating staff positions isn't for this, but I do feel that it's a part of some staff members' job to police players and to be roleplay judges.

That's right, I said it.  I think the staff should police players and should be roleplay judges, on some level.  Obviously it shouldn't take up a lot of our time, but I've always felt that's one of the job functions of a staff member.

If I see a player being a twink and cheating, I'm gonna nail him.  If I find out someone abused some code bug with the intent of getting away with something then tried to hide it, I'm gonna smack 'em down.  That, in my mind, is policing.  What I don't do is go around looking for it though, but if I find it while I'm doing other stuff, I'll deal with it.  That's what I consider policing the players.  It's possible you guys mean something else with that term.

As for the roleplay judges?  You betcha!  We have to judge someone's roleplay in order to help determine if they are trustworthy and capable of handling certain karma roles.   Again, I may be thinking of a different definition of what this means, but I sure as hell consider myself a roleplay judge.  And I think of the rest of the staff that way too.  I also think players can be excellent roleplay judges, too.  They shouldn't be breaking character very much criticizing each other, but emailing the staff about Bob's crappy rp, or Joe's wonderful rp is just fine.  But the staff are the ones who are primarily responsible for enforcing that the game remains a roleplaying game, so we have to be roleplay judges by the very nature of our job.

Obviously, there are different opinions even among the staff, and that's fine.

Halasturd hath passed judgment on me, and His holiest of words rang with a piercing harshness through the cold air.  Yes, cold air in Zalanthas.:
You are n00b.  You phail at life.  

Then, we danced together.

Okay, now that I got that out of my system.  Halaster is right.  I see no problem with punishing people for twinking badly, especially since he doesn't go out looking specifically for it.  The staff has many roles to fill and jobs to do, and if they find somebody in their spare time that's twinking, they shouldn't just turn a blind eye.  Roleplay judging is not bad, either, I think, or we wouldn't have the "review" command.