Armageddon General Discussion Board

Before you all PANIC, this is just an idea we are batting around and are looking to see if it is something the players would like to see.

So, my question to you all is:

How do you feel about the idea of PC slavers occasionally going after PC targets?  

If we did (and again..don't panic..we aren't doing this just yet) allow this, there would be a few very strict rules:

1) Any PC captured would have the opportunity to bribe their captors on the spot and walk away for a reasonably inexpensive fee.

2) A PC would have the opportunity to get to the bank or have friends bring money to buy their freedom upon the return to the city.

3) A PC would have the opportunity to choose service by death at the Arena, rather then play out a slavery.

4)A PC would have the opportunity to choose to have their character stored without any staff prejudice if caught as a slave.

5) PC slavers would only attempt to capture characters not wearing the livery of any merchant or noble house.

6) PC slavers would be OOCly limited to a very small number of PC captures in any given real life week - mixing those with the capture of arena beasts and other humanoids.

The idea is to make slaving more interesting and realistic, and to make it more dangerous for both those who run around alone outside city gates and the slavers who never know if they are going after Joe NoOne or Joe SuperDefiler.  We don't want to make independents unplayable, but just add a touch more danger to the game.

Post your thoughts.  A "I hate this idea" is as good as a "I like it', but we'd like to have the reasons as well.  Much like a well-played raid, a well-played slaving could be fun for all involved.

Cool beans.
I have always wanted to be enslaved, but noooooooo.

QuoteMuch like a well-played raid, a well-played slaving could be fun for all involved.

How many raiding scenes are well played?
1 out of maybe 30?

The PC slavers need to be watched closesly so they don't get a group of ten, run into a room, kill, mercy on.

That is what I fear, I am out in the desert foraging for sandstone and then ten people run in, and 20 screens of combat roll right on through and then 3 hours later, my pc wakes up and I'm in chains.

Excellent idea!

I had a pc who was killed by a slaving house. I was pretty upset that they killed her.. instead of enslaving her. The rp possibilities! I -so- saw the good which could have come from that. WHY wasn't I enslaved? MY pc was wrongly accused, but goodness gracious, that would have rocked! :twisted:

Naiona wrote:

QuoteHow do you feel about the idea of PC slavers occasionally going after PC targets?

Pretty damn good.

Meh, I'd go down fighting!

but yeah.. it'd add a bit of danger, as long as the slavers don't twink..

Just a note - this would be closely monitored in a variety of ways and there would be very little opportunity for the slavers to twink, if implemented.

Quote from: "Naiona"
So, my question to you all is:

How do you feel about the idea of PC slavers occasionally going after PC targets?  

Awesome.  Very very awesome.

Quote from: "Naiona"
1) Any PC captured would have the opportunity to bribe their captors on the spot and walk away for a reasonably inexpensive fee.

To this, I say meh.  If you get caught by slavers, you're in deep trouble.  IF a bribe worked, which in itself should be a rare thing, I doubt anything less than 300 'sids per slaver should be enough.  Borsail and Winrothol are pretty rich Houses, and they at least seem to pay their people rather well.

Quote from: "Naiona"
2) A PC would have the opportunity to get to the bank or have friends bring money to buy their freedom upon the return to the city.

This sounds problematic.  People could say they have to contact their friends and alert the Templarate, who would surely like to get its hands on a slaving unit of the opposing city-state.  No friends, but maybe some other arrangement can be made - maybe throwing the captive for the Byn to handle and transport back if they paid the bribe when they arrived at the slavers' city state.  Again, I'd like this to be rare.

Quote from: "Naiona"
3) A PC would have the opportunity to choose service by death at the Arena, rather then play out a slavery.

Problematic slaves would be tossed into the Arena, docile-seeming ones will be trained and sold.  Yep, is cool.  I'd also like to see full-fledged captured gladiators, though there may be some playability issues with this.  Then again, perhaps they can just be unable to carry weapons and armor and be unallowed to leave the walls under penalty of getting whacked by the guards.  This might also leave escape still optional, but difficult to arrange.

Quote from: "Naiona"
4)A PC would have the opportunity to choose to have their character stored without any staff prejudice if caught as a slave.

Absolutely.

Quote from: "Naiona"
5) PC slavers would only attempt to capture characters not wearing the livery of any merchant or noble house.

Capturing slaves from a Merchant House is silly because the Merchant Houses are very powerful in both city-states.  However, I think a slave cught from a Noble House should be in much higher demand and should therefore be targetted.

Quote from: "Naiona"
6) PC slavers would be OOCly limited to a very small number of PC captures in any given real life week - mixing those with the capture of arena beasts and other humanoids.

Yeah, I don't think we really need more than three or even two PC slaves in each city-state, tops.

Another good side effect this might have is increase the popularity of Byn escort.

I am completely in favor of this.

I love you naio-

Well, I would prefer the idea be to fight for your freedom in the Arena rather than immediately being tossed in with insta-death mob and dying but I suppose it all depends on the captured character's skill level.

Also there should be limits on where slavers can go.  It makes little sense for Borsail to go out capturing citizens of Allanak collecting salts for House Jal.  That'd honestly be like shooting fish in a barrel.  But I get the impression that your idea is slaving when encountering PCs a bit farther afield, and that's a good thing.  Make some tension with those damn tribals and how great would it be to hear of slavers from Borsail capturing northern loggers and Winthrol slavers raiding a group of 'nakki hunters?

But I'm all for the idea.  Slavery and slavers are sadly an under-represented part of the game from what I've seen and taking it a bit more out of the virtual world is good stuff.  Looking forward to seeing what shape this takes.

I like it lots.

With my first PC I was scared to death of meeting Winrothol slavers out in the scrub.  Much to my OOC disappointment, I learned a couple characters later that they don't normally raid PCs.  I'd love for that fear to come back.

Quote from: "Naiona"5) PC slavers would only attempt to capture characters not wearing the livery of any merchant or noble house.

This kind of makes being an independant useless.

Also, what if someone hasn't had the chance to pick up a job under a merchant or noble house? They'd be pretty screwed, if they had plans with this character.

Overall I like the idea.  At first glance, I wasn't sure I liked the fact that bribes always provide an out, but after a little reflection I think it needs that.

Quote from: "Yokunama"
This kind of makes being an independant useless.

I don't agree with this at all.  People who want to play independents are going to regardless, for reasons unrelated to this.  (I think the last reason to play an independent would be that it's safer outdoors).

There should be extra risks to being independent, and this seems like a realistic (but not overly harsh) disadvantage.

Quote from: "flurry"There should be extra risks to being independent, and this seems like a realistic (but not overly harsh) disadvantage.

Independants have lots of downs.  :wink:

Perhaps the slaves should go after people who have not claimed any citizenship, or not -dressed- as if they were in a noble or merchant house?



Hehe. ^_^ It'd be nice to see a noble's aid get caught by a PC slaver, because he/she wasn't dressed properly.

Allanak and Tuluk are in a state of constant warfare, and both cities would just LOVE to have a few of the other city's nobles as its slaves.  It's just great for personal reputation and general morale, not to mention that a slave like that could sell for an absolute fortune.
Other people, such as tribals or the residents of the opposing city-states, would make a fine target as well.  Residesnts because it's war and they're there, and tribals because the tribes probably can't retaliate as forcefully as a full city-state can, assuming that it escalated into a war.

Employees of the Merchant Houses would be exempt from this simply because it makes sense - if Borsail grabs ten northern Kadian hunters, crafters, merchants or what-have-yous, House Kadius is going to be upset with Borsail and might get back at them, and Borsail wouldn't want that.  Salarr is an even better example - piss them off and you'll get a batch of bad swords that will break faster.

I don't think this should only affect independents - Borsail would make slaves of any enemies of Borsail (with obvious exceptions such as merchants or other southern nobles or even high ranking southern commoners), and I don't see why they should care whether their victim is working for House Tenneshi.  If anything, it just means they can be tortured for information.

Can someone please explain to me why a small 'fine' paid to the slavers in order to consistently be released is a good idea?

EDIT: I don't think a Noble House would regularly enslave citizens of its own city-state, unless it's an extreme case.  Generally speaking, that's what the templars are for.
And I doubt independents have it hard enough.  You have to be extremely desperate or extremely talented in order to be able to make a good living on your own.  Forcing independents to hire the Byn, go out less often or travel in groups will make their lives harder, which is a good thing because I understand their lives are just too damned easy.

Quote from: "Larrath"Can someone please explain to me why a small 'fine' paid to the slavers in order to consistently be released is a good idea?

Because slaves are expensive to train for what they sell for.  I won't get into exact costs, but sometimes it might be easier and more profitable to accept a bribe of 500 'sid rather than spend so much effort breaking in a new slave.

That's my theory, anyway.

Quote from: "Delirium"

Quote from: "Larrath"Can someone please explain to me why a small 'fine' paid to the slavers in order to consistently be released is a good idea?

Because slaves are expensive to train for what they sell for.  I won't get into exact costs, but sometimes it might be easier and more profitable to accept a bribe of 500 'sid rather than spend so much effort breaking in a new slave.

That's my theory, anyway.

Sure, it costs money, but Houses as adept and wealthy as Borsail, Kasix and Winrothol can afford it.  Not to mention that they have all of the facilities they need already built, and the trainers already hired.
Also, this money doesn't come from the pocket of the Wyverns themselves.  Finally, if they completed a good raid, won't they get a small bonus from their House?
If so, I'm sure the total value of this bonus will exceed 500 'sids.  I was also under the impression that this bribe was intended to be closer to the 250 'sid range.

Last thing - most captured slaves probably end doing things that require less training anyway; labor slaves, gladiators, possibly entertainers, but not concubines or bodyguards, I imagine.  Training a laborer isn't all that hard - one week to beat the shit out of them, one week to teach them the job, one week to teach them etiquette, and another week to beat the shit out of them again.

It just feels like a very OOC thing to me, I'm sorry.  The slaving Houses are there to capture, breed, train and sell slaves, not to play tag with people and charge them money if they lose.  This will make the world far more dangerous, and I also believe it will make city vs. city events both more regular and more open - if some friendly bunny-hugging Tuluki got caught, all of his friends are affected as well, and might get involved in this somehow.

I'm up for it as long as the respective slaver has a good reason to enslave a particular PC. So, most independants wouldn't need to worry too much, but if they cross the wrong line...  :roll: Also, I believe there is document regarding slaving in your own city-state. Much of that would be up to templars, if my memory serves correctly.

Definitely alot more fear will be spread thoughot the playerbase...a good thing up to certain points.

Also, there will -have- to be just as equal RP opportunity as a slave/arena fodder. If becoming a slave is boring, then it would practically be the same thing as getting killed. There must be a -good- IC and OOC reason to be slaving a person. But, I'm sure with such a thing as this, the imms will keep tight on how things run.

Just to clarify a few points:

1) We don't expect there to be very many ..if any at all... PC slaves from this. (Ones that don't store or die in the Arena, that is)

2) The PCs doing the slaving would be Zalathan.  What does that mean? Corrupt.  They'll take the pay off when offered because it is a) easy and b) money.

No slaving would ever take place inside city walls.  And yes..the idea of slavers traveling to opposite territory is appealing.  It makes things more dangerous for the slavers as well as their victims.

This is a wonderful idea. If it is played out well, it could add very interesting RP opportunities to the game, imo. It has the potential to become very bad for players if it isn't played well, but that's true of many things...

Quote from: "Naiona"It makes things more dangerous for the slavers as well as their victims.

It could also leave gap open for a small chance of escape.

I think this would be a good addition to the game. Mind you personally I would never play a slave, but the slavers would be fun to avoid.   My only comment to add is that as long as there is some RP invloved, not just an insta-capture scene with no posibility of outsmarting the slavers and escaping.  Yes I can see them trying overwhelming odds, but a 100% sucess rate would prove irritating.

edit - My wife made a good point, and yes this crosses ooc concerns. Newbies would seem to be disproportionatly easy targets.  Yes ICly they would be good targets, but slaving someone who didn't understand all the possiblities could turn off some people, just as they are getting into the game. And yes. some would really enjoy it to preempt all you dissenters, but it does raise the possiblity of souring some people on the game at a critical point.  I'm not saying no with the addition of slaving, but this boundry case should be considered.

Quote from: "Yokunama"This kind of makes being an independant useless.

Having 300 'sid to bribe the House on you is going to make an indpendant useless? Hell no! Just don't go to far from your city if you're THAT worried. Borsail won't exactly be walking up to the Main Gate of Tuluk and sitting there waiting.

This will add so much that I'd love for it to be given a trial, say X amount of months (assuming the players aren't twinking out) after which, the policy is again reviewed by the staff (with player input is always nice) to decide whether or not to keep it.

Some of the reasons I want it:

• It gives you a personal and immediate reason to hate members of the opposing city-state.
  
• Borsail and Winrothol have an immediate reason to want spies in the opposing city-state. These spies can look for groups of independants that can be easy prey.
  
• Borsail and Winrothol have plots that can be run anytime the staff want (oh, nothing much has happened in Borsail for the past few weeks,. Hey, how long since our last raid?)
  
• Lots of extra roles will now be opened up (especially in Winrothol and Borsail, which will make these Houses more unique, so Winrothol will be fairly different to Tenneshi and Borsail will be fairly different to Oash).

Ways to avoid being captured by a slaver:

• Hear about if Borsail has recently had a slave-run. If so it's not unreasonable to ICly think they won't be back for a month. As time passes from the last raid, you'll probably begin to get nervous and wonder if they'll be back, so avoid going outside until you hear they've returned and gotten another group of people.
  
• Keep 300 'sid on you to bribe the slavers with (or however much is needed).
  
• Always be within running/short riding distance of a major city/town (Tuluk Luir's Outpost, Allanak and Red Storm are all major cities/towns). This is so you can flee, but also because the slavers are unlikely to prey that close.
  
• Go with a large group. Hopefully you'll look too intimidating. And if not, you'll at least be able to kick up a good fight.
  
• Become gemmed ;) No Winrothol will want you.
  
• Go with a group of friends and have a few of them be lookouts/scouts for any dangerous people (raiders, slavers, mantis, gith).
  
• Make sure you become killed instead of captured ;)
  
• Fight in the arena for your freedom and either succeed, or die trying.
  
• Walk around with a few guards, so that they can fight for your freedom while you flee to safety ;)
  
• Know your wilderness well. Look for places not easily accessible by the inexperienced that you can run to.
  
• Bribe a slaver of the opposing house to give you a warning for when the slavers are coming your way.
  
• Learn the slaver's favorite spot to slave and avoid it.
  
• Hire a spie (or more) to give you a warning on when the slavers are coming your way.
  
• Look for someone in your area that has the spies, and pay him a monthly fee for the information.
  
• If your a crafter and need supplies, buy the supplies from other (N)PCs. There's a good chance someone has (or is willing to get) what you want.
  
• Join a House, or only travel with people from a House.
  

When I can come up with 16 ways to avoid becoming a slave (from only 30mins of thinking), I doubt very much that it will destroy independants. There are many ideas here, some more favorable then others. The most easily done one is the 300 'sid bribe. From what I hear, plenty of independants have no trouble coming up with that sort of coin (heck, an automated apartment costs 500 an OOC week, with plenty of those being rented out).

This will make available spies that keep an eye on the movements of a clan, that will sell the information to other people. Also spies to watch the movement of a mark and to relay the information to a slaver.

And least of all, slavers! Independant ones to. I think if an independant PC can capture an independant from Luir's, Red Storm, tribe or the opposing city-state, transport the victim to the city-state, and hold the victim until they speak with a slaver, without imm assistance and without being a twink, then I think they deserve to be rewarded somehow ;) But anyone looking for such a role should check with the staff first. But this isn't currently available, because as far as I know, capturing PCs to be a slave is a big no-no.

Anyway, I give this idea a big thumbs up, providing the staff keep a close eye on the players.

Quote from: "Larrath"It just feels like a very OOC thing to me, I'm sorry.  The slaving Houses are there to capture, breed, train and sell slaves, not to play tag with people and charge them money if they lose.

What's better: No PC slaving done at all, or some done, with a cheap out for anyone that's caught? You might say none at all, because that way it doesn't cheapen the House by lowering them. And that's fine, that's a perfectly valid point. But I personally think it's better to have SOME slaving, rather then none.

I'm also sure that the amount needed to make a successful bribe will move around a bit, while the staff find a good place to put it (and no, I don't imagine it will be a case of "You've only got 249 'sid? I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to enslave you. We have a 300 'sid minimum in our bribes." But I also don't think it will be "You have 10 'sid? Well we have to accept any bribe, so we'll let you go this time").

I say go for it.
Slaving would be fun. Makes Zalanthas that much harsher.
there could even be slaver ships!

Quote from: "Naiona"Just a note - this would be closely monitored in a variety of ways and there would be very little opportunity for the slavers to twink, if implemented.

Not because I need brownie points, but anything that keeps people from twinking makes you my friend :)


Speaking of twink, anyone played a delf lately? yeesh..

Back to topic:

I think it's a very good idea to do slave runs -outside- of the city walls, and still, it gives the slavee (person getting ran) would have the chance to 1. Run, 2. Bribe, 3. Die, 4. Become a Slave

I like it, and playing a slaver might be a fun role too..

I really like this idea.

I would go as far as to say there needs to be more stuff like this that encourages PVP conflict.

Go to Abi'Lipah and enslave some damn skinnies.

A PC of mine was once taken aside and threatened with slavery, though he managed to bore his 'captors' into releasing him. I thought it was a great experience and one that really defined the character, and it happened when I was still a fairly new player to the game.

Yes, it will make things harder for independents. So what? Roll with it and have fun. You expect this game to be easy?

I'm with Larrath that paying a bribe to get off seems a little silly. I'd oocly hate to see the following situation happen:


The tall, muscular man is here, chopping wood.

The massive party of Borsail slavers has arrived from the west.

The Borsail slaver captain says to the tall, muscular man, in sirihish: "Raur! You are now our slave!"

The tall, muscular man says, in sirihish "You people again? This is the third time you've tried this! Here, have another 300 sid."

The tall, muscular man gives some coins to the Borsail slaver captain.

Disappointedly, the Borsail slaver captain says, in sirihish: "Oh. Well... have a nice day then, Amos."

The massive party of Borsail slavers rides west.


Obviously the above is meant to be slightly humorous, but I hope it illustrates a point.

All in all I'd have to say I like the idea.

Larrath wrote:

QuoteCan someone please explain to me why a small 'fine' paid to the slavers in order to consistently be released is a good idea?

I think it's realistic because the number of bribes the slavers would take would make up for the fact that each individual bribe is small in size. Sort of how bribes work for militiamen and Templars. I mean, to a Templar, that one hundred 'sids you offer them is chump change. But if they collect five of those tiny bribes in one day...
Or ten in a week...
Well, you get the picture.
As others have said, it'd add some of that fear and conflict we all love oh so much. Piss off the Kuracis, and you might have an "accident" the next time you walk into Luirs. Piss of Nenyuk, and you might find that you owed a few months more "rent" than you realized. Piss off the noble houses, and you'll have assassins and magickers breathing down your neck. And piss of the slaving houses, and you might end up spending your final moments appreciating just how much those gaj tentacles sting.
I like it.

I am for this, and in fact I think the proposal is even a little too lenient... get out of slavery for a "relatively inexpensive fee"?

[scene]

Quote
A company of slavers encounters a tribal elf in the middle of nowhere. The sergeant steps forward timidly: "Ah, er, pardon me, Mr. Elf."

Elf: "Hmm?"

Sergeant: "I say, don't suppose you'd care to come with us? You see, we're with the great house Borsail, and they're always on the lookout for fine specimens such as yourself."

Elf (suspiciously): "You mean you want to enslave me?"

Sergeant: "Ha ha, no, not enslave you... 'enslavement' is such a harsh term. We prefer to call it a 'non-optional, unpaid gladiatorial internship.'"

Elf: "Sounds like slavery to me."

Sergeant (continuing obliviously and with great enthusiasm): "Through our program you'll gain valuable work experience and become an upstanding member of society. Well, not really a full member. Sort of a junior member, if you will. It's a very prestigious honor, to be a sla... to be an unpaid gladiatorial intern."

Elf: "Get away from me, round-ear."

Sergeant (crestfallen): "No? Oh well. How about three small then, huh? Help me out here."

[/scene]

Anyway, it's a good idea. I only wish I could've captured some PC slaves while I was in Borsail. :x

-Cindrak

Edit: Uh, yeah, this post is basically identical (complete with satirical sketch) to Jherlen's above. I probably should've read the thread in more detail before posting. *sigh*

The basic premise is "realistic" for the genre, but I just don't see how it would fly. I can see cries of "favoritism" running rampant over this. Hunter Joe gets robbed by an elf, and an hour later the slavers come by. Joe doesn't have the sids to pay them off, and loses his character. And then he accuses the elf's player and the slavers of being set up by the IMMs because they don't like him, or they caught him twinking, or his main description sucked, or whatever.

It wouldn't matter if the whole thing was totally legit. It would result in some pretty bad press.

Then there's the matter of noble house aides and guards. What's good for the goose should be even better for the gander. Why enslave some nobody chopping wood for sids, when you can enslave a Borsail aide who already has been through the Atrium, learned how to behave, has proven that they're capable of obeying orders, and just needs to be brainwashed to do the same for their new Winrothol masters?

I don't think elves would be "enslavable" because they're just not trustworthy and you'd end up breaking their bodies before they let you steal their minds. Not worth the effort. Dwarves and humans, totally - because the "ultimate slave" is a mul, afterall.

But then you have to consider what, exactly, you're gonna DO with those slaves if their players choose to go along with it? Are you going to force them to do nothing but mudsex or fade to black regular sex sessions just in hopes of spawning that mul baby? And if the player comes out with "My character is infertile" what then?

Enslaving someone against their will, to me, is akin to graphic sex/rape and torture. It should come with a consent rule. And if the player refuses to consent, there goes all the fun roleplay, the whole point, really, of the experiment.

For these reasons, I don't like the idea at all.

Quote from: "Naiona"Before you all PANIC, this is just an idea we are batting around and are looking to see if it is something the players would like to see.

So, my question to you all is:

How do you feel about the idea of PC slavers occasionally going after PC targets?  

I think the special apps characters who would in charge of such operations (templars and nobles more so then merchants) already abuse the crap out of characters as it is.. I don't really think they need even more power... so I'd say no.

Those people interested in playing a slave role can easily apply for one.. even one taken by a slaver..  People have little enough trouble inventing ideas to kill other PCs.

Quote"5) PC slavers would only attempt to capture characters not wearing the livery of any merchant or noble house. "

    Ohh I see a market for black market livery :)

Also.. given the rules... just how many targets are there going to be?
 Outside a city,  not in a merchant house,  worth bothering taking??  What one character in ten?   less once the slavers get their act together?  So maybe five targets?  So say 6 slavers total.. bag limit of 2 a week..  How long before they run out of players willing to play a target?

QuoteJust a note - this would be closely monitored in a variety of ways and there would be very little opportunity for the slavers to twink, if implemented.

  ::cough::  Of course the players will try to flex the rules in their favors.. they might lose their slaver.. but they'll have the satisfaction of having ruined another person's character...  which will be many of the sort attracted to this.



=======================================
Personally I think the constant drain on staff resourses (time and coding effort) isn't worth what it might add to the game for a few griefers.

This would work _only_ if citizenship of the slave's home city were considered.

Why would a commoner with due citizenship in Allanak have to fear being whomped on by Borsail slavers?  Winrothol, maybe, but not Borsail.

Otherwise the concept of citizenship blows harshly - only useful for keeping you from getting gang-banged by mobs in town.

Capture of pcs as slaves is a good idea - but only in regard to non-humans / non-citizens.  An elf in the desert is fair game (as is any Mul, obviously) but a human obsidian miner shouldn't have to worry about getting taken in by a house that resides in the same city as he does.

I do think it'd be a little too easy if Borsail could ride out and harass obsidian miners, or Winrothol harass lumberjacks, by threatening them with slavery. Picking on honest, upstanding (human) citizens performing gathering duties for your own city seems like a good way to make everyone hate your House fairly quickly.

Anybody else? Sure, enslave 'em. I think it has the potential for a lot of good fun. Lots of players might go down fighting, others would have to try and plot their escape, some few might actually just run with being a slave and enjoy it. Well behaved slaves are well fed and well treated, in some cases it might even be an upgrade on the life a commoner PC is living. Not all captured PCs would end up as pleasure slaves (I imagine few would, the f-me's like to stay in the cities in bed), but I bet a lot of them would make good grunts, gladiators, and labor slaves, which are always in high demand (after all, isn't that what all the privates/cadets/recruits in Houses are anyway?  :P )

Another cool thing about having PC slaves is that the slaving Houses would have real, marketable PC slaves that they can sell to other PCs. This would bring out the 'business' side of these houses - marketing and selling all the slaves they take - in a way that I don't think is currently done. Imagine the opportunities for plots and roleplay opened up here.

Anyway, yeah, really really like this idea.

I'm all for the enslaving aspect.  


But.


What are you going to do with me once you have me?   Let us say that I'm playing an indie PC, intentionally avoiding clans because I'm disenchanted with a bad run of PC leaders.  I get enslaved.   Yippie, that was a fun episode.  Now what?  

Do I spend my days and nights sitting in a cage?  Stuck in a 4x4 pen?  Is my PC now at the whim of the log-in times and creativity of some other PC?  What if whoever buys me gets bored with the novelty of having a PC slave and quits logging on?  Quits giving me. . um. . I don't know, rooms to sweep?

Being that this is a game, my question is how will forced slavery enhance the game, be fun for the poor sap caught in the trap?

Right now you can choose to play a slave (I think?) and in choosing are made well aware of the limitations of that role.   I shudder to think of being forced into that role.

Bess and Sandstorm, think about this. What is the difference between dying because you ran into the wrong Templar or into the wrong nest of gaj, and storing your character because you were enslaved? If you don't want to play it, you don't have to.

I am pretty sure this will go into the game, at least on a trial basis. My opinion? Fuck the trial. Implement it permanantly.

I think 300  sid per slaver would be a reasonable fee. That, of course, could be a little more difficult, but hey. Additionally....

....in regards to owning a slave and making that slave's life enjoyable, here are some ideas for you. These are, of course, sadly under the restriction of the various House rules.

For non-combative slaves:
1. ALL or MANY errands, from running into the next room to snatch your slippers, to going to the market to pick up your cloak and dagger.
2. Some select slaves (perhaps those who have OOCly expressed a desire to remain in the game as a slave), could be taught to read and write so that they can dictate the PC nobles' life experiences into books, thus having them add to the literature in the game.
3. Have them attend to administrative duties, from organizing food for all the soldiers, or all the aides, or just for the nobles, to making sure that the latest and most exotic styles are kept abreast of.
4. Trained sluts! Hell yes. Wait, we have those....
5. There are likely a great many more, but as I am typically a combative character....

...this is a list of things for a combative character to do.
1. Train Leaders. If slavery is conducted correctly, the model slave's life should often be better than independence. Once that slave has become docile to his condition, he can be allotted a little more freedom.
2. Gladiators are musts. That slave should be allowed to go out into the city wearing only a shirt and trousers or a dress, and collar, and he should be treated as a rap star or movie star is now. Any person, free or slave, who lives for the Arena should be a star, by the way. The guards at the gate should not allow him to pass, perhaps even dragging him back to his compound or jail for even trying, and weapons and clothing merchants should sell him nothing. Food merchants should be the only merchants who will allow a gladiator slave to buy anything.
3. Indoctrinate them. A slave who is trained day in and out (and I don't mean sparring, either. I mean everything dealing with combat, from tactics to philosophy) will make an excellent leader.
4. Serve as Soldiers in the Nakki Legion (or whatever it is). Textually, most of those soldiers -are- slaves.
5. A few things for soldier-types is included above, but there's more.

Lastly, I really think that if they escape, they deserve to escape. I'd have no problem if you couldn't start out a mul, for instance, in any other manner than through slavery (and I love muls more than anyone else who plays this game does, so I don't wanna hear nothing about anything). You should have to escape ICly.

The Arena needs to become a greater portion of entertainment for both Cities. Shit, draft an IMM who most deals with Arena organization alone. Let vendors come, etc, and make it a real part of the game. And Gladiators should be fucking celebraties.

EDIT: Auctions! Auctions! Very nessessary! Auctions! And let folks buy slaves as long as those slaves are not too dangerous. This can forgo that "contact your friends stuff, Niona", because your friends -could- buy you back, maybe, provided they can beat the bidding organization. And really, who the fuck would buy their friend back? Not many folks. "Captured? Heh. Sorry. Ass out. I got mouths to feed."

Quote from: "The7"Bess and Sandstorm, think about this. What is the difference between dying because you ran into the wrong Templar or into the wrong nest of gaj, and storing your character because you were enslaved? If you don't want to play it, you don't have to.

I don't think they're putting this forward as a fancy way to remove characters from the game.   I do want to play, that's why I made my character - with my goals, my intentions, my choices.  If someone is going to kill me, that is just fine with me.  I've never complained when that has happened in the past, I don't intend to complain now.

But what they are suggesting is to turn a character into a slave.  When that happens, someone is imposing their goals, intentions, and choices onto my PC.   I'm now removed from being the master of my character's destiny.  If someone is going to do that, then they need to be responsible for having a playable option other than "store your PC now! hahahaha Lolz!"   Otherwise why do it?   Otherwise, how does it contribute to the game?  

Keep in mind that if you want to play a slave, we currently have that option.  But, hell, we don't even force our slave races to begin the game enslaved.

Understood, and I agree. I had originally wrote the statement for Bess, but added you to it at the last. In any case, my post offers some perks for being slaved, some interactive qualities that can and should be expanded on.

Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"Understood, and I agree. I had originally wrote the statement for Bess, but added you to it at the last. In any case, my post offers some perks for being slaved, some interactive qualities that can and should be expanded on.

IF I   WANT  to lay a slave I will apply for it... till then it is nothing more then another way to have a character get lost while giving some kack-fecking griefer his jollies.

Quote from: "Sandstorm Phoenix"
I don't think they're putting this forward as a fancy way to remove characters from the game.   I do want to play, that's why I made my character - with my goals, my intentions, my choices.  If someone is going to kill me, that is just fine with me.  I've never complained when that has happened in the past, I don't intend to complain now.

But what they are suggesting is to turn a character into a slave.  When that happens, someone is imposing their goals, intentions, and choices onto my PC.  

I thought I was clear on this, but I'll say it again:

We are expecting few if -any- PC slaves to come out of this. No one will be forced under any circumstances to play a slave.  You might lose a character, but no one will be forced to play out slavery in game.

There will be so many ways for the player of a PC to escape playing a slave, from bribery to the arena to storing, that it will be a very rare exception if we do this, rather then the norm.

Sounds like a whole lot of fun to me.
Life's danegrous. If you can't live with the possibility of your PC dying to misunderstanding, random raider attack or just plain old 'you attempt to climb, but slip', why do you bother playing? This is just another way to make your PC's life a hell.

Quote5) PC slavers would only attempt to capture characters not wearing the livery of any merchant or noble house.

A Borsail officer to his slavehunting squad: "See! A lonely Winrothol, out in the scrubs! Get him, lads!"

But Naiona, if it's "in character" for your character to actually agree to become enslaved, then the "slavers" need to be prepared for that actuality. What's to guarantee that the slaver won't get killed after locking you up in a cage, and leaving you to just sit there bored out of your gourd until you die of thirst of end up having to wish up for an IMM to slay you?

I don't think there's much fun in that, and it would result in ALL the players building into their backgrounds that they'd rather die than live as a slave.

And in a game where slavery is better than death, I think the -potential- for it to detract from the RP, rather than add to it, overweighs the -potential- for fun.

Considering we're (as far as I understand) basically talking about Borsail and Winrothol - both being player clans with Imms' backing - I wouldn' worry about that. The chance of all clan leaders dying at once -and- Imms being too busy to help seems too low to me.
And I am saying that as an off-peak player of a clanned PC, who hypothetically should have troubles reaching his superiors. Communication is the key, and storing is always a way in such a situation (even though I personally dislike it).

I'm sure that if the slavers get killed and you get stuck alone in the cage, you'll be able to destroy the cage from the inside and eventually get away, or call for help and get released.
Even if you were a slave owned by Borsail and every single Borsail PC died, there are still the NPCs and you can still be sold.  No problem there.

And not all slavery is better than all freedom.  Captured labor slaves or the lowlier gladiators probably don't have such a stellar life, though it does beat the virtual 300-'sid-a-year commoners.

Seriously, I couldn't be more in favor of this, just as long as a slave owner was made to realize that they have a serious responsibility towards their slave's player.
One of my characters was enslaved back in my earlier days, and I had a great time with it all.

Quote from: "Larrath"I'm sure that if the slavers get killed and you get stuck alone in the cage, you'll be able to destroy the cage from the inside and eventually get away, or call for help and get released.
Even if you were a slave owned by Borsail and every single Borsail PC died, there are still the NPCs and you can still be sold.  No problem there.

And not all slavery is better than all freedom.  Captured labor slaves or the lowlier gladiators probably don't have such a stellar life, though it does beat the virtual 300-'sid-a-year commoners.

Seriously, I couldn't be more in favor of this, just as long as a slave owner was made to realize that they have a serious responsibility towards their slave's player.
One of my characters was enslaved back in my earlier days, and I had a great time with it all.

Just so long as you also code the ability to burn their facilites.. destroy their wagons.. and do other nasty nasty things..  Scrap up 1 large bounties for the ones in tuluk... For some (many folk) slavery is worse then death... and if your going to try and push it down our throats.. rather then use the perfectly functional system you already have.. well partisans have nasty tricks too.. acid in the face of a noble.. fired wagons.. grand theft.. massed crossbows..

 I can't really believe you are going to permit a background/(or even a guild) who specialized in ruining other characters...  Given the problems with special apps this definately isn't the time for this..

I think she means that she is making a -system- so that a PC slaver won't die and leave you in a cage.

This is Borsail aftearall, so there would be more than one subordinate, npcs, employees. Etc. Naonia and the players running with her ideas would make sure that a character had rp even if they become a slave.

I like the idea.  
Heck, merchant houses and noble houses who sponcer cadets/school people might tip off slavers who has recently left their employment.

I'd only say that if there are going to be PC slaves, there needs to be PC overseers.  They'd be the ones training the slaves, careing for the slaves, and selling the slaves (which means finding PCs with good players behind them).

Quote from: "HardCarbon"Just so long as you also code the ability to burn their facilites.. destroy their wagons.. and do other nasty nasty things..  Scrap up 1 large bounties for the ones in tuluk... For some (many folk) slavery is worse then death... and if your going to try and push it down our throats.. rather then use the perfectly functional system you already have.. well partisans have nasty tricks too.. acid in the face of a noble.. fired wagons.. grand theft.. massed crossbows..

If one slave or partisan could accomplish this I imagine the staff would do it. To me it seems like it'd be far easier to capture some random independent in the scrub than to burn down a building, though.

QuoteI can't really believe you are going to permit a background/(or even a guild) who specialized in ruining other characters...  Given the problems with special apps this definately isn't the time for this..

All it seems like you'd need to enslave somebody is roleplaying and the subdue and possibly guard skills, and some kind of cage. All of which exist already. The policy and system is what's being debated more than new code, I think.

Just because you may have had a bad experience with a special apped character doesn't mean there are "problems" with special apps, does it? I also wouldn't go as far to say that the slavers would specialize in ruining characters any more than a raider, thief, evil sorceror, or hungry scrab would. It actually sounds like these pcs would be held to a higher standard and more restrictions.

Again, when roleplayed well in the right situations, being enslaved or being threatened with slavery can actually be -lots- of fun. Give it a chance before the cries of griefing and mistreatment are brought out oocly.

Being able to enslave PCs is a great idea.  :twisted:

I haven't read this whole thread so forgive me if this opinion has been stated.

Obviously, in some ways, capturing a PC as a slave is just as bad or worse than death.  A system like this would essentially permit and ENCOURAGE Borsail/Winrothol clannies to go out once a week or however often and randomly PK some poor guy mining obsidian.  I understand Blackwing was closed because it became a clan oriented around random PKing.

That said, if PC these hypothetical slavers were watched CAREFULLY and it was made sure that they RP appropriately with the victims, maybe it could work.  Personally, I'm skeptical, but glad this is open for player discussion.

Quote from: "Naiona"

Quote from: "Sandstorm Phoenix"
I don't think they're putting this forward as a fancy way to remove characters from the game.   I do want to play, that's why I made my character - with my goals, my intentions, my choices.  If someone is going to kill me, that is just fine with me.  I've never complained when that has happened in the past, I don't intend to complain now.

But what they are suggesting is to turn a character into a slave.  When that happens, someone is imposing their goals, intentions, and choices onto my PC.  

I thought I was clear on this, but I'll say it again:

We are expecting few if -any- PC slaves to come out of this. No one will be forced under any circumstances to play a slave.  You might lose a character, but no one will be forced to play out slavery in game.

There will be so many ways for the player of a PC to escape playing a slave, from bribery to the arena to storing, that it will be a very rare exception if we do this, rather then the norm.

Oh, you were very clear.   But, if even one single solitary PC is forced into slavery because of this idea - then my point is still valid.   If only NPCs are going to be pressed into slavery, they why ask the players at all?  This is a fun thing, but whoever is in the business of forcing PCs (even few - if any) into a role out of the player's control and other than the player's intended direction - then the responsibility is on the slaver to come up with a valid, enriching playing experience that adds to instead of detracts from the game.  Otherwise why bother?   Why not just load up a hunting party of gith and track indies down?

Maybe we could test this idea for a bit?  Anyone interested in helping with the test could create either a slave (recently captured) or a slaver.  This way we know the players wouldn't mind being captured.  It would also give more credible feedback on if this idea should become implemented.    

Create a temporary camp and surrounding area (a few rooms) out in the desert.  It would provide enough space to see how people can role play the capture of a slave.  Plus, a slaver's camp and training ground to see how PCs react once captured.  The slavers could even bring them back to the cities to be sold.

I see nothing wrong with it.

It sounds all too Zalanthish.  I like it.

If someone does not like his/her pc being enslaved, they can consider the critter as similar to the death of the character and store.  After all, scrabs kill people, but we don't take them off the game because they are killing people, right?

In other news:

Old school Black Moon to be re-opened.

Random death traps just outside the city gates.

Stormslayer to be reincarnated to terrorize all.


If the intent is to cycle characters faster, options 1 and 3 above have more style.  At least they're outlaws, and have to watch their own backs while messing with players.  People can handle that. Staff sanctioned PKing (which is effectively what this is if you expect nobody to play the characters) is stupid if you're trying to encourage people to write up character histories before playing...  You've already got too many people playing materialistically, now you're going to put things in to force them to hoard obsidian or "die"?  They get a black flag if they over-hunt to get the 'sid to not be captured, or they lose a character?  Not great choices.  This is either just going to piss people off or destroy independant roleplay.

Why would a slaver take a bribe from you?
They can tie you up, take the money anyway, unless it is a damn good price that is in your bank account.
Do they really want to walk you through the town to the bank?
Why wouldn't Nenyuk see the chains and say "Oh you withdrew your 180 large yesterday, sir. Don't you remember? We don't have it anymore. So fuck off."

I've had a bynner I have wanted to be enslaved as a gladiator, but none of the pcs would go for it. Seriously, they would live the high life.

Whats wrong with NPC slaving?

Lima beans are totally evil.

I'd be ok with PC slaving as long as I don't have to eat lima beans.

Some people will always be against this idea, I understand.  But Arm is harsh and slaving does exist, everywhere.  Just because it's almost 100% in the virtual environment doesn't mean there aren't Borsail slavers constantly going out and bringing back various monsters, raiders, tribals, etc. that they come across.  And since its a vastly important part of the game there isn't much justification not to have at least a trial.  I mean, Red Storm is a slave's sanctuary.  There's a reason why the "no slaving" rule down there is so unique.

There do need to be a few things looked at though, most have been brought up before but these are what I think are important:

PCs vs. NPCs - I think in most slaving raids npcs should be the focus.  But if you're out slaving gith in the tablelands and run across a lone delf, well he'll make good arena fodder too if he can't run to Blackwing or his tribe.  We even have tribal encampments now, what a great way to use them.

Citizenship - As many people have said slaving should be highly limited.  I would be seriously upset if my loyal citizen of Allanak who is out mining 'sid gets slaved because some PC slaver got bored.  But a few leagues up the north road if someone is resting from a hunt there should be little to stop the slavers.  The indy can buy there freedom or can die, playing an indy and roaming the wastes means living on the edge.

Bribing - I like the idea of a bribe.  It makes sense too that a tribal human would be able to claim good friendships with the great House Borsail, grovel a bit and hand over some coin.  Otherwise it means a fight for the slavers and danger, and untrained slaves aren't worth that much.  Stealing a woodcutter from Tuluk, however, should be a certain prize for a Borsail, at the worst it's Arena fodder to show pagan weakness.

Buying Freedom - Untrained slaves can't be that expensive.  An indy with friends or a decent bank account should be able to buy their own freedom.  Rememeber we're also a barter society, give up that nice 400 sid spear and maybe you might chip away at the fee.  I'd say that the max amount to sell off an untrained slave, even a northerner or delf, should only be about a large.  Slaves require food and water and training etc., might as well take the money and let them loose.

Twinking - If PCs are going to be slaved then they should be slaved by PCs.  If Borsail can't manage a run itself I assume the Byn could be hired.  But if some over anxious Wyvern Sergeant just ordered a HG mob to subdue me and throw me in a cage, no matter the level of RP, I'd be a little upset.  Slaving of both NPCs and PCs should be dangerous but incredibly rewarding and it will seriously cheapen the experience if NPCs are used/abused.

That's just where I'm coming from.  I'm liking this idea though and hoping to see it on a trial basis.

*veins bulging in his neck as he pulls back on the reins*

Wooooaaaah! To all the negativity and anti-slavery posts.

This is getting ridiculous, first of all Naiona is offering us an opportunity to chew on an idea that is rumbling through the heavens of Immortality.. She doesn't have to do that, and she's not asking for our permission. You don't like the idea, fine.. But the dislike is illustrating a systemic problem Arm has been suffering from for quite some time:

People not reacting intuitively to situations that occur to them. People believing that the plan they have laid forth for how their character will live and what they will do next is set in stone and should not be altered.

PC's shouldn't be forced into Slavery? Sandstorm... Bestatte... c'mon. What bothers me about that line of thinking is that it creates this list of things nobody should do to your character because -you- haven't planned for it in your copious vision of how your character's life is going to pan out.  You have dreams and aspirations for your character? Good.. but when in the many years of your life have you seen all of your plans come to fruition? We have to roll with the punches and deal with the hand life offers.  And if it's being enslaved, then Krath-Damnit! it's being enslaved. Be the best damn slave ever and realize that it's not GAME-OVER. The Imms know that slave-roles are sensitive and especially when concerning a forced enslavement. Man, I -want- to get enslaved just to add that new dimension to my character's personality.. because then there's always the possibility of escape. *gasp*.. or someone buying your freedom. *gasp* Or you having fun when you didn't expect to! *GASP GASP*

If you are Joe-Schmoe and you are hacking away at an obsidian deposit by yourself, you have made several choices... You have chosen to a) go out alone. b) expend your energy in the blazing sun and c) load yourself down with obsidian slag.  In short, you have chosen to make yourself the most viable target for any raider in a three-click radius. You should basically paint a target on your back and wear a slave collar to spare the slavers some extra work.

It's time people were held responsible for the choices they make.. and going outside the gates as a hunter, or as a gatherer is a choice that you must weigh for yourself. The element of Slavers simply adds to the environment, it takes nothing away.  It adds danger.. Will I be raided today? Will I be eaten by a silt horror? Will I be enslaved? That's awesome... keeps you on your toes.

If anything the idea of being able to ALWAYS buy your way out is such a carebear concept that it makes me cringe.

What REALLY bothers me is that someone would up and QUIT rather than play out the slavery.

This whole softening everything and asking for consent before RPing intense situations irritates me to no end.  But for the carebears in the audience if things need to be softened, perhaps slavery doesn't have to be forever... There can be terms of slavery.

What if it were for an IC month? Or two? Heck what if it were just a year?

I hate the idea of people assuming they can just buy their way out and we shouldn't have to couch Slavery with "well they're only usig foam whips, and your safe word is "blueberry" so if it's too much just use your safe word and we'll stop, oh and if you have 50 coins we'll just look the other way"

So much for harsh desert world.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I signed on for Roleplay and I signed on to interact with others and be interacted with... This isn't -MY- game, I don't get to make the rules of how things happen to my character... If I get my arm chopped off by some Templar, I'm not going to quit my character, I'm going to play that shit out and -pray- that the Imms are watching and enjoying the show.

We don't play this game for Karma, but in my opinion, rolling with those punches and showing that your sole concern isn't keeping your character alive no matter the RP cost.. that's how you get Karma.

But again, that's just my opinion..
Two thumbs up, Naiona.. way up.

Ooooh. I love the idea.

Couple things.

1) If this happens, then your buddies should be able to buy you as a slave. You're still a slave, which means you're the drink getter and latrine cleaning bitch, but they define your new duties as their slave, which could be very similar to your old routines. Or your enemy. Or a templar who's got designs on your body. Or the Salarri merchant who you politely turned down to be a weaponcrafter for but now he doesn't have to pay you for a while. Etc.

2) Bring Blackmoon back. With roving bands of slavers, then it makes sense to have a roving clan of anti-slavers. So your 25 day inde ranger is out in the wilds facing the Borsail legion of doom... You contact the buff mul who happens to be someone you helped when he was poisoned a month ago, and for a price, of course, he rallies the tribe and chases off those pansy assed noble guard wannabe's.

3) If you escape being enslaved through non twink escapism... the slavers shouldn't put more than one or two ranged weapons in your back. A flurry of thrown knives, arrows, and bolos... not overly cool if you're trying to run after you legitimately used a distraction or your desert skillz to gain an advantage and run. (Spam fleeing does not count, kids. There's gotta be a ratio of emotes to flees to qualify.)

4) Mercy. Bludgeoning weapons. Stun points. Don't harm the merchandise! Knock it out for dragging into the cage and city.

5) Perhaps slaves of this kind would be more indentured servants, not bred for their slavery, so they will work it off in a few IC years. There's no 'sid put into their bloodlines, afterall, unlike the house bred ones.


Okay, more than a couple. Hope this helps.

Proxie

Quote from: "Vox"*veins bulging in his neck as he pulls back on the reins*

Wooooaaaah! To all the negativity and anti-slavery posts.

This is getting ridiculous, first of all Naiona is offering us an opportunity to chew on an idea that is rumbling through the heavens of Immortality.. She doesn't have to do that, and she's not asking for our permission. You don't like the idea, fine.. But the dislike is illustrating a systemic problem Arm has been suffering from for quite some time:

Quote from: "Naiona"Before you all PANIC, this is just an idea we are batting around and are looking to see if it is something the players would like to see.

So, my question to you all is:

How do you feel about the idea of PC slavers occasionally going after PC targets?

Correct me if I am wrong but she asked for opinions (I'm sure you will).  Getting all the opinions out in an open discussion is a good thing.  You don't have to agree with them, but mocking them is less than steller and does not advance the discussion.

Back to point.  I am tentavly in favor of the idea. My concern is in the experience itself.  Essentially for most people this would be a character ending experience.  If you are going to sanction this as an official role, then the experience better be a damned good one.  That means only the best players as slavers and extreme IMM oversight.  A wham, bam your enslaved would do little good in my opinion.

Quote from: "Naiona"We are expecting few if -any- PC slaves to come out of this. No one will be forced under any circumstances to play a slave.

I don't get how some of you guys are missing this. If such a system is implemented, it won't affect a very large ratio of players, so stop with the arguement that slavery will affect the game in such a large portion. The only thing it will do to the playerbase on a noticeable scale would be the increase in apprehension and fear when in the desert, something that would be a welcome addition in my opinion.

Also, I don't get how becoming a slave is any worse than getting mauled by an NPC. If anything, becoming a slave is ten times more better than a death by a nonemoting, nonfeeling NPC (codewise). And, if slavery will open up as much roleplay opportunities as I'm hoping it will, then that'll double your enjoyment on top of that.

Just to make sure noone forgot it already:

Quote from: "Naiona"We are expecting few if -any- PC slaves to come out of this. No one will be forced under any circumstances to play a slave.

Keep it civil, people.  A couple posts were removed because they were flammatory.  If you'd like to re-post with constructive feedbacks on Naiona's idea and other players' as well, feel free to do so, but please don't target each others' ideas and comments in a way that's derogatory and aggravating.
Thanks
Ashyom

Well vox, I don't know about you. I play for -MY- enjoyement.

I don't play for my characters enjoyment, their friends, their job, etc.
If I didn't play for my enjoyement, I better be getting RL money for it.

If a slaving run isn't performed with fun in mind, and instead it is a test of who can stack subdue and flee the most, then I classify that under "Non enjoyable" and I go and get a second job.

If the slaving run happens to be a smash and grab and then I log in the next day to move rocks from here to there, it is classified as "non-enjoyable" and I go and get a third job.

Why play if I am going to be subjected to something that feels like RL slavery to me?

Quote from: "Maybe42or45"Why play if I am going to be subjected to something that feels like RL slavery to me?

I can see where the negative seniment on this idea is coming from. I agree that if becoming a slave will deter your enjoyment of the game, then it should not be implemented for PCs to become slaves. So, if such a system were to be enacted, there would need to be solid foundation for slaves to work on. Here's a few things that I'd like to see:

:arrow: A doc or two on what being a slave means, different aspects of a slave's life, and options that slaves have. Likely a few more items that I can't come up with currently.
:arrow: A slave society (almost like a coded tribe) that would define slaves and set them in their own nitch in the Zalanthan culture.
:arrow: Options made available for different things slaves can do besides menial tasks or gladitorial labor.
:arrow: Going with the previous point, a manner in which slave PCs do not need to rely upon their PC masters for things to do. Likely some freedom in how a slave can be played.

Quote from: "Vox"Sandstorm... Bestatte... c'mon. What bothers me about that line of thinking is that it creates this list of things nobody should do to your character because -you- haven't planned for it in your copious vision of how your character's life is going to pan out.  You have dreams and aspirations for your character? Good.. but when in the many years of your life have you seen all of your plans come to fruition? We have to roll with the punches and deal with the hand life offers.  And if it's being enslaved, then Krath-Damnit! it's being enslaved. Be the best damn slave ever and realize that it's not GAME-OVER. The Imms know that slave-roles are sensitive and especially when concerning a forced enslavement. Man, I -want- to get enslaved just to add that new dimension to my character's personality.. because then there's always the possibility of escape. *gasp*.. or someone buying your freedom. *gasp* Or you having fun when you didn't expect to! *GASP GASP*

[edited to remove cheerleader references] and read my entire post.  I'm for the idea of slavers going after PCs.  The game already allows PCs to play slave characters.  It even has a slave race, though one that isn't required to play enslaved if the player chooses not to.   Yay for slaves!

I'm also for a little thought put into it before it happens to even the rare random unlucky sod.   If all a newly enslaved character has to look forward to is a 4 room locked cage or an owner that gets bored and stops logging on, then it is effectively taking a PC out of the game.   As many of the posters have already said, there are much more creative ways of doing that.

I would be nervous about any implementation not made available to the playerbase as a whole.

People create characters free or enslaved for a reason.  They want to play a role by certain standards, and to be killed, enslaved or stored would be rather frustrating if the encounter was not 100% PC organized, backed and executed.  If there were thoughts of any Immortal intervention in these enslavements, I would be against it.

I would, however, love to see active PC slaving outfits created and operational in both Slaving Houses as well as perhaps some tribes or clans where it makes sense.  They should have the same challenges that raiders have had in the past so that both elements can be observed and refined to add a deeper experience to the game for everyone, not just slavers.

This would mean slavers would need to spend time learning routes, hiring spies, waiting on roads, setting traps and dealing with failures as any other PC in the game would.  That alone would provide for some exciting and interesting RP.

-LoD

I love the idea. I think the "If I wanted to play a slave PC I'd
special app a slave PC" argument against it doesn't hold much
water. This mud isn't clearly designed to allow your character
to have everything he wants to happen to him (or not) happen
to him (or not). I should know, I've had tons of characters try
to do exceptional things and get mauled/eaten/burned alive/et
cetera. I like that Armageddon has a "life can be brutal" edge
to it, and this adds to it. It also could give having citizenship
and the relations between city-states and other orgs a new
meaning.

On the bad side, I suppose that being a slave PC could be
boring, but if anything this is a step up on the "Oh that sucks"
scale from say, dying to a trio a d-elf tribals, considering you
don't actually die. Also, what was said about there probably
being many ways to evade/pay off slavers is true.

Thumbs up on my end,
- Ktavialt

This idea would open up to so many different oppurtunities that it isn't even funny. Not only would it just be interesting to see them prepare to go out each week for their hunting and the boasting their members will be doing while being a part of this detail but this idea would also create conflict between Borsail and Winrothol. Small battles in the desert, both Houses are ranked highly in their Nobility giving them much influence on more attacks against their opposing city-state. This I think would bring out the hatred that should already be there for the opposing city-state.


On a side note, I diffenatly know that I would application to play a character they chase after and want to enslave. Krath, I would probably piss them off purposely to get them to come after me. Imagine the rush of Winrothol livery chasing after you in the waste lands simply because you have a sturdy back and no House markings? No longer will you call the Ivory a bunny-hugging pit of worthlessness!



                   - Demonaire -



            - Demonaire -

Quote from: "Demonaire"Imagine the rush of Winrothol livery chasing after you in the waste lands simply because you have a sturdy back and no House markings? No longer will you call the Ivory a bunny-hugging pit of worthlessness!

If there is a chase, if there is tension, possiblites, then it would be good. But imagine how you would feel if they came at you with overwhelming odds.  All the cool emotes in the world when you have no chance in hell of evading the capture would make the experience suck.  I can envision the following senario where the slavers complain that everyone spam flees, so they start coming at everyone with surefire, "always get them", captures, then we get to endure tons of threads of people complaining about how those on the other side are all bad roleplayers.   We hear this all the time about raiding/delfs/magickers/gate guards.  Make this interesting and unpredicable, with risks on -both- sides and it will be great. Rush into it without good planning and it will not.

This should be imp'd.  More so it should be implimented with very few restrictions other than those participating be watched as heavily as the psis/sorcs and templars (twink guards and what not).  If your char ends up getting caught more than likely the slaver could have killed you instead so the whole "I dont wanna play a slave" argument holds no water.  Your char is finished so start a new one, just as if you died.

IC reprocussions will keep it in check.  Bribes would also be very situational so some clear cut ooc guideline is bogus.  If an elf offers you fifty sid it might just be worth, but a healthy, well-built and educated human might be worth more than that 1000 sid shes offering up for her freedom.

Slavery is so very under presented and allowing pc's to participate would add one more layer to the impressive cake that is Arm all without starting some new iso clan that rarely interacts with the bulk of the city populations

This would also allow people to rp escapes!  Slavetrackers!  Slave-gang rescues and more!

Sure, it can go bad and not be fun given the right circumstances, but what isn't that true for?  Turn on the light and this idea is no bleak shadow.  It gives PC's more freedom to do whatever their characters would do in any situation and thats always good

I'll repeat. I am completely in for this idea.
I have only spam fleed from mekillots, templars, and a when I saw a screen full of halflings appear auto-magickaly.

Since Naiona said they will be watched, there will be few pc slaves, and you can retire without bad feelings, or die in the arena, I love it.

By watching the slavers, she's watching the soon to be slaved.
And that right there is awesome.

Although Naiona's said it a few different ways already, some of the responses afterwards still leads me to believe one or two people have a lingering misunderstanding of our current expectations/goals (although these expectations are somewhat mutable).

Yes, PC's would be among the acceptable targets.

Yes, PC's could be captured.

Once captured, PC's could attempt to bribe their way out of it.

Once captured & returned to the slaving camp/base city, PC's or their friends could buy them out of slavery.

By choice, an enslaved PC could play the role for a few RL days to attempt escape or get friends together to buy them out.

No, we do not expect PC's to then continue playing the slave role.  Choices at that point include entering the arena or turning the PC into a virtual character (and OOC'ly storing the PC -- such storages would just get a note saying "enslaved" and carry no stigma whatsoever).

We've raised a similar concern regarding the potential effect on "newbies" still learning the game.  I'll leave most of my comments on this until this thread runs its course so as not to color things -- it's good to see a lot of responses and points of view, and I'd like to hear what yall perceive as the potential downsides & ways to possibly address them.

-Savak

Whups, forgot to log in.  That was, in fact, me.  -Savak

Well, as one of the newbies in the game, I thought I might throw my 2 sids in (been wanting to say that since I heard it) and, maybe, give everyone a different perspective...if not exactly an intelligent one.

The thing that drew me to this MUD was how crazy challenging it was...and, not just because I like a hopeless situation, because Lord knows I can get into that just by trying to pick up a girl at a bar. The challenging nature of it drew me because I knew the people who really wanted to play were the only ones who would stick around. This MUD probably has the most reliable playerbase I have seen anywhere, and that's sweet because I can build relationships with other characters...something that is missing in most other MU*s out there.

So I say, as a newbie, bring on the slave collars. Yeah, there's a chance I might store a character, but there is also a chance that I might get into an amazing RP situation.

Let's face it, no one logs onto Armageddon because they want to play a character who dies of old age...genital disease maybe, but definately not old age.

Sounds like a good idea actually.

For the anti-slavery people. (Like me) It would be something interesting to do. If you catch my drift. ;)

I'd be strongly in support of this.

I've been wanting to see this done for awhile.

Quote from: "Savak"Whups, forgot to log in.  That was, in fact, me.  -Savak

I think the biggest down side is the amount of staff time this is going to chew up..espically if it only effects a small number of people.

 In coding time, in time spent watching things that could be better spent, and in tme dealing with the complaints.

First of all, HardCarbon, this is going to affect just about the entire MUD.  This will rekindle the conflict between Allanak and Tuluk, and keep everyone on their toes.
People will be more careful of the slaving Houses - as they should be.
The T'zai Byn will be possibly brought into wider use, either in helping the slavers or in protecting a slavee or possibly even in keeping the slavers at bay.

I doubt there is -any- new code that will be needed for this.  Cages exist, wagons exist, cage-wagons exist, subdue exists and stun damage exists.  What more do we need?  I believe even shackles already exist, and lashings are also coded.  I'm not a staffer and don't know how things look like from their end, but I somehow doubt that watching an open-ended RPT and helping to support it would be a waste of time; and the players involved would also have a great experience.
I also don't see why you expect so many complaints.  Slavers are obviously going to be under serious scrutiny.  Expecting people who know that they are being watched to blatantly twink out is utterly silly.

I had to think about this one a long time, and there have been some excellents posts.  A great discussion.

Final analysis for me:

It brings virtual into playable.
A good slaving mission would require some awesome RP.
Getting caught by a slaver crew would REALLY suck.

Scary, challenging, a solid bite in the ass?  Sounds like Armageddon.


Seeker

If this venture goes through there will be no extra coding involved. As mentioned by other posters, all the tools a slaving group would need are already in game.

I'm worried about multiple enslaving of the same player's characters. So I make a d'elf, he's enslaved, I store him after a couple of days. Really wanted to play a d'elf so I make another one. It's enslaved a few days after I make him, I store him too. Twice in a row, and I still haven't had much chance to flesh out a d'elf character. So I try a third time, etc. etc. etc.

Is there some way to ensure that players have a chance to actually play out the role they created for themselves after one's already been enslaved and stored?

It's the chubby red turkey's turn for the opinions I guess...

- "I don't want to be a slave": I can't accept this rejection. How many people would want to die? How many of them would want to get amputated? How many of us would want to spend 1.5 hours -if not more- in a dark room after failing a pickpocket check? This is a game and it has rules.

- "I play for my own fun.": Then go buy Diablo II. Here we're also responsible to entertain each other, too.

- "It would suck for me.": Right. I believe I will instantly wish up for storing right after one of my characters get enslaved. So store it. We all lose characters, right? I'm playing my 35th and it's only three years.

- "A slave chacter could be special apped already.": Yes. But we don't special app characters to be killed by defilers, raiders, or even scrabs. It's not a new role added, it's a new danger added for the MUD. We will not ask for it, we'll suck it up if it happens. And, let's get real. It's damn realistic. I hate it but it's realistic.

In the end; I wouldn't love it. I would rather hate it. But it's realistic and good for the environment. I believe a few of my characters will end in the arena or will turn to VNPC's getting stored. But heh, I accept the new danger being added. But just one thing, is such scene possible?

The skinny gemmer arrives from north, rushing into the tavern.

The skinny gemmer pushes through the crowd towards ~bar, approaching to the buff Borsail Sergeant.

The buff Borsail Sergeant looks at the skinny gemmer, eyes narrowed.

The skinny gemmer whispers something to the buff Borsail sergeant, voice hushed.

>listen on
You start trying to listen.

The buff Borsail sergeant whispers something to the skinny gemmer, eyebrows inclined.

>listen on
You start trying to listen.

>listen on
You are already listening.

Nodding, the skinny gemmer whispers to the buff Borsail Sergeant, in Sirihish:
    "Yes I'm sure, sire. Both were foreigners. Also no merchant House signs on their clothing. I had a really clear look."

After a moment of thought, the buff Borsail Sergeant rises from the cracked wooden bar.

>emote raises an eyebrow casting a stolen glance towards ~bar
The cute, F-me female raises an eyebrow casting a stolen glance towards the cracked, wooden bar.

The buff Borsail Sergeant rummages around the pockets of his wyvern-embloizaned greatcloak.

The buff Borsail Sergeant gets a pile of obsidian coins from his wyvern-embloizaned greatcloak

The buff Borsail Sergeant tosses a ragged pouch of coins to the skinny gemmer before rushing to the entrance, elbowing folks on his way.

The buff Borsail Sergeant gives the skinny gemmer some coins.

With hasty strides, the buff Borsail Sergeant runs north.

.....

You think such role would be accepted by a Borsail Sergeant?

Quote from: "Anonymous"I'm worried about multiple enslaving of the same player's characters. So I make a d'elf, he's enslaved, I store him after a couple of days. Really wanted to play a d'elf so I make another one. It's enslaved a few days after I make him, I store him too. Twice in a row, and I still haven't had much chance to flesh out a d'elf character. So I try a third time, etc. etc. etc.

Is there some way to ensure that players have a chance to actually play out the role they created for themselves after one's already been enslaved and stored?

Substitute 'enslaved' with 'killed by raiders' if there was a group of PC raiders out there and you could experience the same thing.  Back when the black moon raiders were active I had three characters in a row affected by them, one dead, one raided and one a member.

Staff, do it.

Do it.

Quote from: "CRW"

Quote from: "Anonymous"I'm worried about multiple enslaving of the same player's characters. So I make a d'elf, he's enslaved, I store him after a couple of days. Really wanted to play a d'elf so I make another one. It's enslaved a few days after I make him, I store him too. Twice in a row, and I still haven't had much chance to flesh out a d'elf character. So I try a third time, etc. etc. etc.

Is there some way to ensure that players have a chance to actually play out the role they created for themselves after one's already been enslaved and stored?

Substitute 'enslaved' with 'killed by raiders' if there was a group of PC raiders out there and you could experience the same thing.  Back when the black moon raiders were active I had three characters in a row affected by them, one dead, one raided and one a member.

 Most PC raiders didn't have the resources of a noble house behind them..

Also.. what will this do to the balance between feuding houses?

Quote from: "HardCarbon"Most PC raiders didn't have the resources of a noble house behind them..

The 'resources' of a noble house seemed to have little effect in the sands, especially considering how prolific the Blackmoon was.  The point is that raiders and tribes have always had the ability to ruin a PC's day, and this shouldn't be viewed as any different especially because there are several 'outs' for the PC in question.

In the end, to me, there's little difference between being killed by raiders or dying in the arena.  So I don't understand what people are so upset by.

And besides..

Giving 300 or 500 or having a friend getting you out is REALLY a very easy and cheap way of saving the PC.

Bring it on.

Quote
The 'resources' of a noble house seemed to have little effect in the sands, especially considering how prolific the Blackmoon was. The point is that raiders and tribes have always had the ability to ruin a PC's day, and this shouldn't be viewed as any different especially because there are several 'outs' for the PC in question.

In the end, to me, there's little difference between being killed by raiders or dying in the arena. So I don't understand what people are so upset by.

It does matter.  Black Moon, as a clan specifically built to screw people with staff support, was too twinkish to exist in its original form, and its members were outlaws in cities.  This is Black Moon on crack, with a license and legal standing.  (Yes, I did play a Black Moon under Kelvik, when he and most of the members were playing on PKmud.)

The mud needs to decide which way it's going, 'cause this is backwards.

All the "harsh" stuff people are posting sounds a lot like "Feh, screw roleplay, I want a text fragfest," which is what the game was at certain points in time.  I admit to having been part of the problem back then.

The staff should NOT support clans / roles whose primary purpose is to eliminate other characters.  Secondary goal, fine.  Primary, no.  It's poor GMing, as it encourages shallow character creation.

Quote from: "Linedel"All the "harsh" stuff people are posting sounds a lot like "Feh, screw roleplay, I want a text fragfest," which is what the game was at certain points in time.  I admit to having been part of the problem back then.

The staff should NOT support clans / roles whose primary purpose is to eliminate other characters.  Secondary goal, fine.  Primary, no.  It's poor GMing, as it encourages shallow character creation.

And yet, is it not true that those Houses are suffering because they can not roleplay their jobs properly?

The staff should not do what? You know, maybe we should bring back resurrections and stuff too. Ok, I'm sorry, and I understand your point. I would also hope that the Borsial and Winrothol life did not become a PK record, or enslavement record. But I am fairly certian that that will not happen, provide the correct Immortals have a hand in this entire thing.

Quote from: "Linedel"All the "harsh" stuff people are posting sounds a lot like "Feh, screw roleplay, I want a text fragfest," which is what the game was at certain points in time.  I admit to having been part of the problem back then.

I'm going to take everyone else's arguments and reduce them to a basic element then express it in an absurd way to prove I'm right. :roll:

Look, certainly there were some issues with Blackmoon back in the day and even at the end of it's run it excersized more power over the sands than a group of a few hundred dudes should have.  But before we determine that this slaving operation would be a failure shouldn't we at least see how it pans out?  I'd be shocked to hear that there were no controls in place and that the staff wasn't watching closely.

And muls should really be pretty fucking worried about slavers and they just flat out aren't.  Red Storm shouldn't be a mul haven because on any given day someone might make the journey to Allanak to rat you out to Borsail and then lure your mul to them for a few hundred sid.

I just rolled a character that's a prime candidate for enslavement but I still think this should be given a chance.

Quote from: "Linedel"The staff should NOT support clans / roles whose primary purpose is to eliminate other characters.

Put it like that, and I can see what perspective you're coming from, and likely alot of other people. By allowing the slaving Houses to enslave PCs, it -would- likely end the PC's aspirations and so pretty much end that PC's life. And, I can see how dying to an NPC animal or whatnot, being not sponsored by the imms, would be better in some way...right?  :roll:

In my view, although the role might deal alot in so called "eliminating other characters", if it is done with roleplay first in mind, and allows the victim as well as the slavers to participate in an event that would not be possible currently -and- be exciting, then I don't have any quarrels with having my character's goals cut alittle short. It also allows me an option to either roll with the punch and play out the life of a slave for abit, which I feel could be a great roleplay experience. And, who knows, the life a slave might not be all that bad. If you are valuable as a slave and act properly, then you'll likely get positions of trust among the House of your masters, a role that might not be possible with a normal commoner. Also, you'll be exposed to the many great players of nobles and intense political situations that a lowly vagrant of the wilds wouldn't even dream of. So IMO, it wouldn't actually be an end to your character unless you want it that way. If the life of a slave is fletched out by the imms and players before such a system is undertaken, and it is done with enjoyment of the player of the slave in mind, then I'm sure it would be a fun role to "be forced upon".

And, if you have other ideas in your mind, you can just start over. Your character will die eventually, especially if you're one to be roaming in the wilds, and what is a better way to die than with the great roleplay of PCs? I would think it is more of a priveledge...but that's with my view.

Quote from: "CRW"

Quote from: "HardCarbon"Most PC raiders didn't have the resources of a noble house behind them..

The 'resources' of a noble house seemed to have little effect in the sands, especially considering how prolific the Blackmoon was.  The point is that raiders and tribes have always had the ability to ruin a PC's day, and this shouldn't be viewed as any different especially because there are several 'outs' for the PC in question.

In the end, to me, there's little difference between being killed by raiders or dying in the arena.  So I don't understand what people are so upset by.

Hmm Lets see.. good armor and weapons, high end training facilities,  Bad ass NPC guards,  unlimited food and water,  better access to special apps PCs (like Muls),.....  your right  no help at all...

Quote from: "Adhira"If this venture goes through there will be no extra coding involved. As mentioned by other posters, all the tools a slaving group would need are already in game.

So If I find a slaver's wagon  and defeat whoever they left behind to guard it the code exsists for me to set it on fire and steal its draft mounts?

QuoteHmm Lets see.. good armor and weapons, high end training facilities, Bad ass NPC guards, unlimited food and water, better access to special apps PCs (like Muls),..... your right no help at all...

Just give your 300 sid dude.  Or get a couple of friends.  Or get to be a member of a clan/House.

If you don't have any of it, then hide and cover in the sands.

And if you can't do that too, sorry.  You need to play a more realistic char maybe?  Like a slave of that one.

There are (3) points that I would like to be considered when this notion is moving through Immortal channels for approval/implementation:

1. Every slaver should be a (P)layer (C)haracter.

NPC's that insert themselves into the world dynamic by taking an active role in anything other than a guiding/advisory position (i.e. Leaders of organizations, senior agents that provide direction, tribal chiefs/leaders)  drive me absolutely batty.  They do so because NPC's often are logged in when it's time to accomplish their task and, because Imms have time constraints, aren't played out as regular PC's .  PC's have to deal with the fact that they have lives outside of their job.  People angry with them can track them down at a tavern or catch them while they are vulnerable.

2. Slavers should carry every risk that raiders share.

Part of the fun/challenge of executing these PvP style encounters are the dangers and chances of failure.  It's also hard to learn how to lure people into your trap, and that aspect of the game is great.  I wouldn't want to see these operations carry any more security out in the desert than the number of PC's present would provide.  Hiring Byn to protect the slavers or bringing a fair amount of men would help use other organizations and make the experience fun for everyone.

3. Victims of enslavement should have RP ahead of them.

This is really one to think about before implementing anything.  If you are going to encourage and support a PC slaving operation, the first thing you need to do is come up with an RP environment for slaves that do choose to become slaves over storing.  I suppose you could make the case that these Houses are going after potential Arena warriors, but I'd like them to take on more responsibility than that.

Create a slave barracks.  Give the guards and officers of the House a real job to train, manage and take care of the slaves that their House captures on these slaving runs.  Provide RP for the characters, so that they can actually live out a life and do something (if vastly different from what they first wanted to do) besides die.

I realize there are built-in chances to escape, pay or be bought out of your status as a captured slave, but I think that if you're going to go through all of this trouble - you should really provide the game with an interesting, well thought out system for those slaves that want to accept the turn of fate and RP that out.

These captured slaves could be made to do physical labor, trained to sell to another buyer, trained and eventually sent to the Arena where perhaps they could win their freedom.  If I was captured and wasn't able to arrange any of the other "outs" provided, I'd want to have the choice of RPing out my life as a slave.  Rather than be instant dinner for some Arena creature, I'd love to have the chance to join a group of these "captured slaves" who fight in the Arenas and are given at least some kind of life in the interim.

If you aren't going to provide RP past the initial enslavement, then it's a shallow idea and really needs to be thought over before implementation.  There's a lot of cool stuff that could happen as a result of this setup, but there's just as much work to be done to ensure it's enjoyable on every side of the table.

-LoD

Quote from: "HardCarbon"Hmm Lets see.. good armor and weapons, high end training facilities,  Bad ass NPC guards,  unlimited food and water,  better access to special apps PCs (like Muls),.....  your right  no help at all...

Good armor and weapons: Blackmoon was outfitted to the gills.
High end training facilities:  What does that even mean.
Bad Ass NPC guards: If PC slaving crews went around with NPC guards I'd have a real problem with that.
Unlimited food and water: Anyone capable of killing/beating a PC has the skills to have what is essentially unlimited food and water.  Kill that thing for food, kill your way to one of any number of water sources, free or otherwise.
Better access to special apps PCs: Bullshit.  I'd wager a guess that at least 75% of muls are put in as former slaves and not apped as slaves.  In my times with Borsail I played with 2-3 mul slaves over the course of a year or so.  Compare that with the dozens of free muls roaming the sands you can find in a similar timeframe.

The ultimate answer to this debate is the simple fact that the Blackmoon did rule the sands in spite of the existence of three very active Allanaki noble houses (Oash, Tor and Borsail) who all had better resources.  In the end those resources don't amount to much when it's time to go toe to toe with a PC whose skills are tested more often than a training regimine just by virtue of the lifestyle they lead.

Quote from: "LoD"2. Slavers should carry every risk that raiders share.

Part of the fun/challenge of executing these PvP style encounters are the dangers and chances of failure.  It's also hard to learn how to lure people into your trap, and that aspect of the game is great.  I wouldn't want to see these operations carry any more security out in the desert than the number of PC's present would provide.  Hiring Byn to protect the slavers or bringing a fair amount of men would help use other organizations and make the experience fun for everyone.

In full agreement.

Quote from: "Ghost"

QuoteHmm Lets see.. good armor and weapons, high end training facilities, Bad ass NPC guards, unlimited food and water, better access to special apps PCs (like Muls),..... your right no help at all...

Just give your 300 sid dude.  Or get a couple of friends.  Or get to be a member of a clan/House.

If you don't have any of it, then hide and cover in the sands.

And if you can't do that too, sorry.  You need to play a more realistic char maybe?  Like a slave of that one.

Nice personal attack...


I could go to some of my old guilds who are board with their dull grapical gmes.. and bring em here for a couple months of fun.. but that would be crude..

Me.. I have something much nastier in mind..

Quote from: "HardCarbon"

Nice personal attack...

I am sorry.

I just wanted to point out that it is not a one way dead end, if such a thing was put into action.  There are many ways to get out of it and all are well too reasonable.

I did not want to just make a personal offense, but I see it looks too much that way.  I apologize for it.

With any luck, my escaped mul app will go through and I can be reenslaved! How awesome would that be? the desert will really have me freaked out now.

Quote from: "HardCarbon"I could go to some of my old guilds who are board with their dull grapical gmes.. and bring em here for a couple months of fun.. but that would be crude..

:!: REQUESTING BACKUP FROM THE INTERNET :!:

Seriously though, what's your point with this statement?  I don't get it.

Quote from: "Ghost"

Quote from: "HardCarbon"

Nice personal attack...

I am sorry.

I just wanted to point out that it is not a one way dead end, if such a thing was put into action.  There are many ways to get out of it and all are well too reasonable.

I did not want to just make a personal offense, but I see it looks too much that way.  I apologize for it.

I've BEEN an involitary slave before:

 1) Abuse the crap out of you without bothering with consent?  check
 2) Turn down a 2large+ bribe for release (AFTER cleaning me and my bank account out? (another 2 large))  check
 3) Belief that there will be adequate monitoring..   NOT

Quote from: "HardCarbon"

Quote from: "Ghost"

Quote from: "HardCarbon"

Nice personal attack...

I am sorry.

I just wanted to point out that it is not a one way dead end, if such a thing was put into action.  There are many ways to get out of it and all are well too reasonable.

I did not want to just make a personal offense, but I see it looks too much that way.  I apologize for it.

I've BEEN an involitary slave before:

 1) Abuse the crap out of you without bothering with consent?  check
 2) Turn down a 2large+ bribe for release (AFTER cleaning me and my bank account out? (another 2 large))  check
 3) Belief that there will be adequate monitoring..   NOT

Zalanthas is a harsh world. Some slavers wouldn't care about that bribe when they can gain you and the money. Sure, it can kill the playability, but it's realistic. People are greedy. That was obviously before what the staff is claiming to do, where that will be reversed.

If someone does something consent-worthy without asking for your consent, OOC about it and ask them to stop.  If they do not stop, wish up.

Abusing the consent rule is pretty damned severe, and punishment, I read, also tends to be very severe.
This is not normal nor will this ever be the norm.

Turning down the bribe is an IC issue.

Not having enough monitoring?  If you feel that you need more monitoring, simply email the clan imms and CC the MUD account, explaining your reasoning, and things will probably change within three days at most.


I have also had a character become an involuntary slave, and I had a great time with it.  But that's just me, and I guess he wasn't in a too-bad situation.

Not targetted to anyone in particular, but if people are going to post, post something that is new to the thread please. Seeing how long this thread is, alot of the issues being brought up have already been mentioned, and it seems people tend to blow right over them to get attention or other.

Quote from: "HardCarbon"I've BEEN an involitary slave before:

1) Abuse the crap out of you without bothering with consent? check
2) Turn down a 2large+ bribe for release (AFTER cleaning me and my bank account out? (another 2 large)) check
3) Belief that there will be adequate monitoring.. NOT

And was this role monitered by imms? If it wasn't, then it isn't a likely arguement for this thread. If it was, then it would damage the trust that I have in the staff, and likely a few others. Aside from that, as long as the system isn't tested, I think there will always be some negative sentiments on this idea. Once it's gone through a trial run, and the playerbase can see the results, then I think a better decision can be made. In a worse case scenario, maybe it'll turn out as HardCarbon has put it, but if things go as I hope it will, it'll only make the game that much better.

Before I take my hands out of this thread for now, I'd like to ask that slaving runs are not done every RL week, rather a random occurance whenever the demand for slaves is high. There should only be a small percentage of the playerbase that actually gets the chance to become a slave, similar to the ratio of templars, or else I have a feeling being a slave will be a boring thing. Almost like an IC recruitment for slaves... :wink:

This thread has gotten soooooo long that I am going to lock it and have started a new one,  found here  (http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14026&highlight).

Please post your further replies in the new thread.