I just want to say that I think it's uncool to kill linkdead newbies*. Yes, I know it's hard to tell when someone's new or not. But this game has a steep learning curve for new players, and it would be a courtesy on the part of older players to cut them a little slack at first. If someone's dropped link in a quit room, it's a pretty good sign that they might not have a good grasp of the game yet.
A couple of thinks and a say to justify the killing don't make it not mean, and when there are virtual NPCs in the room as well, you're sliding over the boundaries of common sense.
I really appreciate the people who take time to assist the new players by answering questions, showing them how to play, proposing amendments to docs or code to make them/it more intuitive and easy to use. And I'd ask the rest of you to think before posting to castigate people for not understanding a subtle point of the game, or telling them they need to do Y and Z. Give them a little time to figure out X before you start on that.
If you want more players, which I think most of us do (including myself), then remember that they come out of that group of newbies. Make that first hour something other than an intimate look at the mantis head and they may stick around. Otherwise, I don't blame them for finding a more welcoming place.
*After all, would you prefer the challenge of pkilling someone who knows the syntax and the world, or to kill that poor linkdead guy standing there? In the latter case, isn't it a little like shooting fish in a barrel?
I'm glad to see an "official staff position" on this. Amen.
Obviously there's a big difference between already having intent to kill someone and then seeing them drop link, or finding them LD. There you might have IC motivation to go through with it. Happening upon someone that you're not aggresive towards or may not even know, realizing they're LD, and then killing them (usually for free loot) is really twinky, IMO.
But I like shooting fish in a barrel!!!
Nah, just joking. Quite seriously, I agree with Sanvean on this one. Killing newbies in a fair arena and in keeping with the guidelines of in-character actions is all good with me.
Killing a newbie when that newbie can not experience it is not.
I go along the lines of doing whatever is IC.
As I've always said...I think letting an ooc fact (this guy is a newbie) influence your decision is just plain wrong. Please note, this also includes -targeting- newbies because they're newbies.
I definitely think that this is one issue where playability would trump ICness for the most part. I don't believe there are any IC reasons good enough to justify killing a linkdead newbie in a public (ie not your super-secret defiler lair) place. If there is any such reason you should wish up and work it out with the staff first.
There was a thread about this a few weeks back, so I'm glad you posted this Sanvean. I think targetting a link-dead anything is kinda uncool, though, but even if you saw things differently it is nice to get clarification on important things like this from the staff.
QuoteI go along the lines of doing whatever is IC.
As I've always said...I think letting an ooc fact (this guy is a newbie) influence your decision is just plain wrong. Please note, this also includes -targeting- newbies because they're newbies.
Agreed.
Killing someone for the reason that they are linkdead is wrong too, there needs to be actual IC reasons/history behind it for your pc to kill them for one.
Just coming up with an excuse to pk them because they are a newbie/linkdead pc is just plain wrong, but if it is actually IC to do so...then stay in character.
Killing anyone that is linkdead in a public place is kinda out-of-place. But hey, if that newbie goes linkdead in the rinth or in the desert, they're free game, right?
Quote from: "Bogre"Killing anyone that is linkdead in a public place is kinda out-of-place. But hey, if that newbie goes linkdead in the rinth or in the desert, they're free game, right?
No, no and no for desert. In desert a beast can kick their ass, but you as a PC shouldn't attack them. He didn't go linkdead intentionally, so you shouldn't kill. Put yourself to that linkdead's position. Would you like to see your char is dead after connecting to game finally?
No, but it has happened to me before. I'm not saying you should target them specifically for death if they are linkdead out there, but if it is ICly demanded on your part, say they are the raider you've been hunting diligently for years or something.
Quote from: "Bogre"No, but it has happened to me before. I'm not saying you should target them specifically for death if they are linkdead out there, but if it is ICly demanded on your part, say they are the raider you've been hunting diligently for years or something.
Nice, then wait there for him to be online. Linkdead cannot "disarm", "kick", "bash", or "flee". Maybe, he has not even a weapon at hand.
If they've been a raider for years, he probably wont need kick or bash.
Wish up to have them logged off or leave them alone.
Quote from: "Bogre"No, but it has happened to me before. I'm not saying you should target them specifically for death if they are linkdead out there, but if it is ICly demanded on your part, say they are the raider you've been hunting diligently for years or something.
You know what, I despise this line of reasoning. It's very funny in a sad sort of way to read so many posts about how it becomes so important to stick to character when dealing with link-dead PCs.
Leave link-dead PCs alone, killing them is robbing their player of the experience. This is not a competitive game. I'm sure you can stick to character and just ignore that that linkdead PC is there.
Quote from: "CRW"Quote from: "Bogre"No, but it has happened to me before. I'm not saying you should target them specifically for death if they are linkdead out there, but if it is ICly demanded on your part, say they are the raider you've been hunting diligently for years or something.
You know what, I despise this line of reasoning. It's very funny in a sad sort of way to read so many posts about how it becomes so important to stick to character when dealing with link-dead PCs.
Leave link-dead PCs alone, killing them is robbing their player of the experience. This is not a competitive game. I'm sure you can stick to character and just ignore that that linkdead PC is there.
Is a big part of the 'griefer' vs 'Carebear' argument.
1) Its a PK game.. I can kill you.. so I will
2) I can Kill you.. but have no reason to do so.. so I'll help you and make a friend of you... to enhance my playing experience...
I think both extremes are annoying.. the first more so due to the no rez thing. and the first tend to do it.. just to make folk feel bad.
Quote from: "HardCarbon"Is a big part of the 'griefer' vs 'Carebear' argument.
1) Its a PK game.. I can kill you.. so I will
2) I can Kill you.. but have no reason to do so.. so I'll help you and make a friend of you... to enhance my playing experience...
No, it's a part of neither. It's about taking advantage of someone's OOC trouble to end their PC's life.
Kill all you want. Killing a linkdead PC isn't cool.
Quote from: "CRW"Kill all you want. Killing a linkdead PC isn't cool.
This is worth repeating.
Quote from: "CRW"Kill all you want. Killing a linkdead PC isn't cool.
Quote from: "CRW"Kill all you want. Killing a linkdead PC isn't cool.
I think I need to pk more. :/
Yup...all this talk and I barely ever pk.
So...whos up? ;)
It's been said before that killing a linkdead pc is sometimes necessary to keep the integrity of role-play consistent. Particularly when someone goes linkdead in the middle of a well role-played raiding or mugging scene, etc. A grace period is supposed to be given, after which the action continues.
Thus, if you've been hunting someone for several years, and you come upon them in the middle of the desert, yes, you will kill them. Maybe after a grace period, and maybe not. The reason I say maybe not, is because in that sort of situation, particularly with how such scenes are usually played in the desert...the aggressor may not even -realize- they're linkdead.
Quote from: "Armaddict"It's been said before that killing a linkdead pc is sometimes necessary to keep the integrity of role-play consistent.
Your attention to roleplay is not the only part of the equation. There's another person involved. If someone goes linkdead a second before a fight or during I wouldn't care, but if you've been hunting an invisible magicker for days and find them in the middle of the sands link-dead then RP integrity dictates that you ignore them.
Involving the player in their own death, no matter how briefly, is more important than scoring a kill.
This is a difference in opinion, CRW. You're playing with consideration to the players, I'm playing with consideration to the point of the game.
Quote from: "Armaddict"I'm playing with consideration to the point of the game.
Which is to roleplay -TOGETHER-.
this game has a point besides entertaining the players?
Next time you're gonna kill me, I'm going linkdead. Next time I'm in a role where I'm hunted, I'll just stay linkdead...all the time.
Point taken?
Thus the nature of the grace period.
This is not an OOC concern.. When you find a PC that is not moving or doing anything IC then that character is deemed krath struck, a disease that many happen to get on Zalanthas. The question I ask is this.. If you were living on such a planet with the same conditions and you found someone Krath struck, would you kill them as well? Now some will say no because you think your half-decent but you would not be a half-decent person living under those conditions so the answer is ultimately yes. A person krath struck is easy prey and easy coin. Simply said.
"Krath-struck" is a weak IC excuse to an OOC problem. Killing people who are linkdead is completely an OOC concern.
Also if someone keeps going link-dead right before a fight I would wish up to the staff and complain about it. If said person has a history of such bad behavior you might get a go-ahead to kill said PC.
It is no longer an OOC concern when it influences the IC world.
Then it becomes both. And it must be balanced. The grace period gives them time to come back from a temporary problem. If they don't...you cannot be expected to act irrationally IC.
Weak or not, it is an IC excuse and perfectly useable. :twisted:
If the player is linkdead, then the PC is not really there at all. It's an illusion, a mirage. The PC appears to exist at that point in space time, but it really doesn't. It is a mindless zombie, not the droid you're looking for.
That is why ignoring them is not OOC. They do not really exist, there is nothing there for you to ignore, much less kill.
AC
If I am raiding and they go Linkdead, I'll wait 5 minutes.
After that, unless I think it was on purpose, I will kill them.
If at all, I think they did it on purpose, I'll kill them.
Quote from: "Angela Christine"If the player is linkdead, then the PC is not really there at all. It's an illusion, a mirage. The PC appears to exist at that point in space time, but it really doesn't. It is a mindless zombie, not the droid you're looking for.
That is why ignoring them is not OOC. They do not really exist, there is nothing there for you to ignore, much less kill.
AC
If that is the case, how do you explain linkdead PCs being killed by NPCs of all sorts? Point made.
Quote from: "Maybe42or54"If I am raiding and they go Linkdead, I'll wait 5 minutes.
After that, unless I think it was on purpose, I will kill them.
If at all, I think they did it on purpose, I'll kill them.
What if the other player has a poor connection? What if their power went out? What if they don't have high-speed connection? What if there's some acceptable reason that disables them from reconnecting within five minutes? Bad luck? No. I call it not fair.
Killing link-dead pc's is uncool. It's weak and more so, it's pathetic.
Quote from: "Rhyden"Quote from: "Maybe42or54"If I am raiding and they go Linkdead, I'll wait 5 minutes.
After that, unless I think it was on purpose, I will kill them.
If at all, I think they did it on purpose, I'll kill them.
What if the other player has a poor connection? What if their power went out? What if they don't have high-speed connection? What if there's some acceptable reason that disables them from reconnecting within five minutes? Bad luck? No. I call it not fair.
Killing link-dead pc's is uncool. It's weak and more so, it's pathetic.
Why are they out in the desert with said problems?
If they are Rp'ing back with me, even giving me and ooc to say brb, I'll give them more then 5 minutes, guarenteed. If they showed effort to roleplay with me like this, I will give it back.
On the other hand, I come into the guys screen and he runs 17 squares away, then I catch up to him, he flees, I assess him and he is exhausted, then suddenly he goes linkdead? If i think they were trying to log out, I'll give them a few minutes, if they just ditched me and "x"ed out so they could call the mud and say how unfare they lost their pc when their internet connection goes down, You are damn right I am going to kill him and send an email to the imms saying who, why, when, where.
I have tried to wait it out, seeing if they are link dead (I though wishing was evil if I didn't have a good excuse) about 30 minutes later, they reconnect, stand, log out. That pisses me off, and would make me stop playing this kick ass game. (even though I was slaughtered as I walked into the city after that by that templar, whos aide I killed in the apartment. I Rp'ed with her an hour before I killed her, obviously going through stages of stupidity and wanting to change his mind, all the while she was locked in a room) So don't even think I wouldn't give up any of my pcs for a little bit of fun roleplaying.
(all except for them emoting killing me.)
That's not fair, 48-52, they can't ooc you if they go linkdead. It's unexpectable.
As for limits to where one can go due to technicalities is even more unfair. That's like saying one with these certain problems should be restricted to certain areas (ie. cities). That's absolutely unfair.
If you are chasing the player and they are absolutely exhausted then they go linkdead, I wouldn't really see much wrong with killing them there. As long as at least wait a little bit to see if they truly are cheating death. If you use proper role-playing, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. They are exhausted, therefore even if a warrior, wouldn't be using kick, bash or any other fighting skill. But I'd still check it out with the imms beforehand.
Limit them because of bad connection?
Did I say that?
I would tell them to not go into dangerous territory without a friend, or go when they have a better connection.
Or take a nights break.
Or Go with friends.
If you think you can successfully hunt/kill/travel/etc.. when you have a bad connection, Fled because I entered your screen, and you have made no attempt to roleplay, I will kill you.
Quote from: "Maybe42or54"If you think you can successfully hunt/kill/travel/etc.. when you have a bad connection, Fled because I entered your screen, and you have made no attempt to roleplay, I will kill you.
See, I think that's appropriate.
As far as 'bad connections', I've had 1 internet connection problem in the last year with my current ISP. It can happen to anyone, though, you don't have to have a bad connection.
I just can't, in good conscience, imagine killing a PC I happened upon by pure chance that was LD in the desert, even if it was an enemy, and I am further very surprised to see how so many people would. Some 2 year old defiler deserves more than to be slowly arrowed to death while his or her player is on the phone with the ISP or the Electric Company going 'WTF'.
Yea, If I chanced upon a LD pc out in the wastes. Even if I hated them, I'd leave them alone.
Quote from: "xX_Cathedral_Xx"
If that is the case, how do you explain linkdead PCs being killed by NPCs of all sorts? Point made.
NPCs are a bunch of non-roleplaying twinks! Have you ever seen how often some door guards spam Scan? It's an outrage.
Don't be an NPC.
AC
So the argument here is, even if it's totally like a raider out on a hunt and finding a merchant linkdead out in the deserts alone, totally IC to raid them, we should still leave LD pcs alone.
I'm not sure where I stand, I'm going to go with I will do what I think is appropriate for my pc. Since I went LD once when my whole block went without electricity for 2 hours [ I forgot there was a electric check] I can empathise with the situation.
Sanvean is pointing out it's cruel to target a newbie Pc who doesn't know how to log out in a tavern room, and instead went LD without the use of -quit-, for the sake of player rentention. I agree. I remember doing it once during the period when you get to play 5 pcs within the span of 2 weeks, it was pretty cruel, and he went to jail for it. But that was when I was new and ignorant.
The point to Sanvean's post was that killing linkdead newbies is kinda uncool. This is not a policy change, suddenly protecting linkdead players from death. Your link is still your own problem.
I think that if a player is linkdead, and its appropriate for you to kill them, then feel free to do so. I'm inclined to follow something along the lines of what Armaddict posted: give people some leeway and time to respond - maybe even wish up, checking to see if the victim has a link - and then decide to attack them (or not). A point to raiders: there is always the 'mercy' command, and you can always leave linkdead players alive - if naked.
Some points to this:
1) Going around and wantonly killing only linkdead PCs is usually noticed, and noted on account notes and player info. This is thought of as Bad Form, and probably won't help the staff see you in a good light when considering karma, or special applications. This does not mean you can't kill a linkdead PC. However, if you do find the need to do so, I suggest a) having a really good IC reason for it, and b) having no other alternative.
The rule of thumb I go by is this: A dead PC can't roleplay with anyone. I may have a better chance of killing a player when they're linkdead, but it would be infinately more fun to do it while they're awake and active. Besides, then you have the satisfaction of knowing that somewhere in the world, there is a dumbfounded player, staring at a Mantis head and cursing. But...maybe thats just the bastard in me, wanting to get out. :twisted:
2) If you're going to kill a Linkdead PC, you are still expected to roleplay. This includes emotes, and thinks which tell the staff what you're doing. Incidentally: it probably isn't a good idea to make up cheesy "IC" justifications for killing LD PCs. Making a character who goes berserk when people don't respond to him in the desert, or believes that being 'Sun-Struck' or catatonic is a terminable offense not only smells of limberger, but does a good job firmly sloting you in the 'powergamer' category.
3) Going around and wantonly killing only linkdead Newbies is thought of as really Bad Form, a form of twinking, and is seriously frowned upon. This might come as a surprise to people, but some Newbies can't figure out how to quit from the game - so, if you see someone who is obviously new, please be at least polite, and pick on someone your own size.
4) Dropping link to try and get out of being killed is also thought of as Bad Form. You get whatever comes to you if you try this, and don't expect any sympathy from the Staff if you die while Linkdead. This goes for accidental loss-of-link, and generaly covers router issues, or other link Nastyness that can happen along the way. Harsh? Maybe.
Welcome to Armageddon.
*Sniff, Tlaloc, that brough a tear to my eye man. :cry:
Nicely put Tlaloc...
I remember... back with my first char, the -only- time I killed a linkie was for a good cause.. at that.. he was a karma player.
I sneak in, attack him -with the help of some friends- and a few seconds after I'm knocking the crap out of him he loses link... like I'm going to flee.. he did it on purpose.. so I let him have it.
But I'm wandering with my ranger or rogue magicker or something and see some obvious newb sitting there with all his 'sids linkdead.. no way in heck I'm messing with him, I'll throw in some emotes, says, thinks, and if he doesn't respond, I move on.. see?
Now the fact that they're running from you and you catch up with them, and poof.. someone loses his or her link.. yeah, that's definently grounds to PK them.
But I agree with whoever said it, I think it'd be nice to see more 'raiding' and less 'killing' I mean, crap take all of their 'sid, leave'm naked and sit back and laugh when you see them walk into that tavern, naked.. Imagine the humor.
Err.. I'm used to reporting the linkdead people with a wish. I believe the imms don't have to check all the linkdead players, but it'd be OK to report them there's someone in a safe place, probably just lost his link hours ago and trying to log back in madly.
All I usually do is "wish all Excuse me.. <bla> is linkdead at <bla>." then going away like that PC was never there.. Shall I keep on this behaviour?
-nods- I'll do that too ocasionally if they look like someone other than a total newbie.
If I see a newbie in this one place where everybody can see, I'll usually Idea it that they've been there a while so I dont use up the staff's time..
Idea: Newbie so and so has been here for a while, might want to check up on it..
Sometimes I add sarcasm to make things flow :P
Cenghiz, my raider kind char left at least 5 linkdead like that. I had started get tired of the situation. But, luckly I am dead.
I never killed a linkdead, or steal something from them. I simply reported them like you did. You are doing best , so do I :)
Okay, so wasn't there a thread where killing/not killing people was debated not too long ago?
Someone going linkdead is there problem. I will avoid killing them if I have a reason to do so IG...however, there are times that it is very un-IC to leave the person alone, and in those situations, I will not hesitate to try to kill the person.
Killing a linkdead newbie? Well, that's pretty self-explanatory to me. A newbie hasn't done anything that would give my character a reason to kill him/her. They're safe.
QuoteA newbie hasn't done anything that would give my character a reason to kill him/her.
Unless this newbie has just failed to steal something from an NPC, has been warranted, went linkdead, and you are the militia personnel chasing him.... and failing to subdue. AHA! There's a perfectly logical and IC reason.
Sa'alam,
Dirr
That was random....
I think I'll post my opinion on this.
1.) If someone is HABITUAL about mysteriously going link-dead after fleeing (which is stupid anyhow - they should know that doesn't suck their body out of the game world) or doing something stupid, okay, I would probably mention it to an IMM, and let them decide what to do with the twink.
2.) If they went link-dead in the middle of a scene that wasn't going well for them, I'd RP them escaping and wish up to have them logged out. We are playing a -social- game, not a MUD driven on the purpose of PKing. Why hurt the experience of other players because you want to be selfish? Is that not a contributing factor to MUD-wide decline?
3.) If I chance on someone LD, see above. You wouldn't spam-pilfer from NPCs, don't do it to LD PCs.
I actually prefer getting desert-PCs logged out rather than "leaving" them alone. The reason is if you leave them, and an animal comes along and kills them, then nobody benefits. The player STILL comes back to a dead character, because his fellow players couldn't look out for him for the sake of sportsmanship.
kill people is bad unless your territorial tribal, rinther or just plain desperate for food/ water, but killing just for the sake it is easy and he has stuff you like i disagree with
I cannot imagine killing a linkdead PC in good conscience. If it's a random encounter (I.e. raiding, mugging), then I can always do it to someone else/some other time. If it is someone I've been chasing for years, I would
never be able to kill them LD. If encounters have been building, roleplay has been had, and this person is an interesting and enjoyable enemy for my character, I would not want the final chapter to be one-sided.
Personally, I play this game so I can interact, create a story, and enjoy roleplaying with the other players. That is the entire idea behind the game to me. Yes, sticking to IC is important, but ICness is flexible. You have the power to control your PC's actions and keep them IC, even if you would rather excuse yourself killing someone who can't fight back and can't interact. Say I was stuck in the middle of the desert, about to fight my arch nemesis, and he goes linkdead. I wait, and he stays that way for a while. This is someone I've interacted with in the past and I know they're a good roleplayer, I know (or at least have reason to believe) they aren't dropping link on purpose. A virtual storm could sweep through, seperating you. A band of virtual raiders could ride in. A patrol of militia could come tromping up. Any number of things could influence the situation, spare the LD's life without breaking character, and you could very easily email what happened virtually to the Imms to be forwarded to your counterpart. Yeah, it's a lot more work than 'kill LD;disarm;get sword', but I think in the end it would be more fun for both of you.
QuoteIf that is the case, how do you explain linkdead PCs being killed by NPCs of all sorts? Point made
As AC pointed out, the point is not made. Justifying your actions through those of NPCs is ridiculous.
As far as people dropping link intentionally and repeatedly: Yes, that is unacceptable. If it happened to me several times with the same PC, I can't say I might not go ahead and off them if it was IC, but, for the most part, I would rather just report it and let it be sorted out by the Imms. I'd rather try to simply avoid playing with that person in the future.
Quote from: "adrien"kill people is bad unless your territorial tribal, rinther or just plain desperate for food/ water, but killing just for the sake it is easy and he has stuff you like i disagree with
You do not need to kill people if you are desprate for food/water. Simply knocking them out is enough to take their food, water, and coins.
Quote from: "Yokunama"Quote from: "adrien"kill people is bad unless your territorial tribal, rinther or just plain desperate for food/ water, but killing just for the sake it is easy and he has stuff you like i disagree with
You do not need to kill people if you are desprate for food/water. Simply knocking them out is enough to take their food, water, and coins.
true, when i raid or attack someone i never kill them almost unless there blood enemies, most i knock them out,
Personally, I think it's the lamest thing to go about killing link-deads in quit/safe areas just for the fun of a cheap thrill or and easy score. IC or not, its lame and just shows that the individual is weak seeing that he can't take on a linked caracter and thus has to be sneaky about it.. Try getting some skills about you and take on a live player. If your link-dead in the wilds or other not so nice areas then yea I can see being cut down. It happends, its a harsh world.
Quote from: "Cenghiz"All I usually do is "wish all Excuse me.. <bla> is linkdead at <bla>." then going away like that PC was never there.. Shall I keep on this behaviour?
That's what I do too.