Armageddon General Discussion Board

One of the things we've been talking about on the staff board is making nobles their own guild, rather than having a noble's player having to pick between assassin/burglar/etc.

So, I pose some questions, because I'd like some player feedback.

1) What skills should a noble absolutely have?
2) Should nobles have their own set of subguilds as well, letting them pick, say, a noble that is combat-oriented, craft-oriented, stealth-oriented, lore-oriented, etc?
3) Are there any noble skills that should be north or south specific?
4) What noble-only skills might be useful?

Your feedback is most useful to me if you stick to the questions and don't move off into the realms of whether kanks should fly or who played the best noble of all time or why do these pr0n popups keep appearing on your computer.  Perhaps all of that could be saved for another thread. :)

Hmm.. Since nobles are all special app, would not it be better to let them choose their own skills in the application process?  And the clan imms could approve it and the char is made?

Well, we'd like to make it so that's not necessary, because that system sounds to me like one that would end up with a certain amount of grief on both sides.  When I'm setting up a noble for someone, I'd rather not have to negotiate the entire skill set.

I would like to see social/intrigue skillsets for all nobles.  Listen, Scan,
even Peek.  Mainly because these are people (unless totally absorbed
in themselves) who would keep their eyes and ears open.  Reading
and writing are a necessity, but for those particularly educated, maybe
a dead language to read and write in?

Subguilds...I think this could be something you guys could have fun
making.  After all, not all nobles are going to be in a life and death
struggle, so some skillsets may even be frivolous or contain rare or
odd skills.

Linguist is a must, but maybe some control over which languages might
be nice.  Some sort of Da Vinci-esque subguild where tinkering and
experimentation could be engaged in might be useful.  Tors absolutely
need a Myrmidon-like combat subguild focusing in specific combat
skills and certain weapon classes.  Fale I would make a Partaker
subguild, containing high resistances to poison, spice and alcohol, as
well as some minor crafts such as party favors of some sort.  I think
it could very well be divided up by house, some of these subguilds,
and definitely differences between Tuluk skills and Allanak skills.

Quote from: "Sanvean"1) What skills should a noble absolutely have?

None.  That is, it depends on the noble in question, and certainly their city-state of origin.  I don't think you can necessarily just lump all/most nobles into one category.

Quote from: "Sanvean"2) Should nobles have their own set of subguilds as well, letting them pick, say, a noble that is combat-oriented, craft-oriented, stealth-oriented, lore-oriented, etc?

I don't see why they can't do this already with existing guild/subguild options.  Though I think nobles with combat abilities should be a rare and require staff approval before selecting guild_warrior.

Quote from: "Sanvean"3) Are there any noble skills that should be north or south specific?

Yes, though I'm sure if I elaborated someone would tell me that this is best not discussed here :P.  But again I think they can make their choices using current guild/subguild options.  Therefore, in my opinion, a noble guild is simply redundant.

Quote from: "Sanvean"4) What noble-only skills might be useful?

Well I remember eons ago whenever I played a noble I was told that unless you are a special RARE case, your character had to be guild merchant.  While I understand this decision, I don't think every noble would be raised learning Cavilish, the trademark of the guild_merchant option.  I also don't think most nobles would inherantly have the ability to become master crafters in every single crafting trade possible (which merchants can do).  So if you ask me, I think the standard noble guild option would basically be a merchant without cavilish or crafting -- in other words, next to no skills.  Though personally I'd rather not see a guild_noble option anyways.  There are simply too many variables affecting each individual noble (like what city-state, what House, their personality, etc.)

Elaborating on Pan's post above, I believe that being a noble means you
should have a superior education, not an inferior one.  Therefore, you
should be seeing nobles with a lot of esoteric skills and skillsets, rather
than just the 5 or 6 non-craft skills merchants have.

Therefore, I hope nobles with all their money and access to tutors do
not end up becoming inferior to the unwashed masses.

Well, most of a nobles skills are not hard coded abilities.  Therefore I can't possibly imagine an entire skill sheet devoted to nobles.

True, but there are quite a few skills that can be put together to simulate
it somewhat.  Existing guilds and subguilds are nice, but I always find
myself lacking in something I wanted for my pc, usually one or two
skills.  And with the advent of a noble skill list with noble subguilds,
more depth is added to the game while taking a bit of workload in
prepping a noble pc off the imms.

I like the idea of the social skills (scan, listen, peek) being standard for all nobles. Reading and writing are, of course, essential. I'd also recommend flee be considerable, since most nobles would have been taught from birth to hide behind their guards and get out of the way when necessary.

Beyond those, the problem becomes that a Tor noble is going to have a different skill set than a Borsail noble, who will be different from a Tenneshi noble, etc.  I wonder if maybe all nobles could have a small "core" skill set, and then each House could have an additional group of skills that its members get to complete the "guild"? Then the subguild could still be used to customize the individual player to some degree. (Yes, I realize this means a lot more work)

For example, a House Tor noble could likely defend himself (some combat skills), whereas a Borsail noble would CERTAINLY know how to negotiate a price in his favor (haggle). A House Fale noble might know more about arranging decorations and food for a party (cooking, featherworking, floristry).  ANY of them might have been a mischevious young noble with their fingers in the cookie jar (thief subguild) or might have taken an interest in herbs (physician), or the like.

So I guess my suggestion would be to have a few "core" skills that all nobles get, and then some House-specific ones as well to complete the guild. I've given SOME suggestions as to what some of these might be, although I haven't figured all of them out in my own mind yet.

I've never played a merchant House family member, but I assume that even the ones who do Agent work aren't necessarily merchant class.  It might be nice to have a class that had a bunch of skills useful to a noble floating out there, but I wouldn't make it required.

I am sick of every Noble I ever encouter having "sneak" and "hide."  Sick of it.  

Nobles should not have to rely on having any skills.  They are supposed to be catered to, and have others hustling to do their bidding.  The power they wield would almost require the stunting of classic skill development.

I would think that most Nobles are not even competent to dress themselves, and the simple mechanics of preparing a meal would be so far beneath them as merit only disgust at the disgrace of actually touching unprepared food.

Nobles' skills should include:  Read, Write, Fashion Tracking, Contact, Facts that Make Our House so Utterly Cool, Snide Retort, Bluster, History, Wheedle, Snub, Barrier, Oratory, and Walking in Obscenely Foolish Clothing.

Everything else, hobby-interests, should come from selection any one of the standard sub-guilds.


Seeker (way less than half joking)

So basically, their primary guild being Fale, Tor, Oash, Borsail, Tenneshi,
etc. and subguilds being added as well?  I rather like that, even if it
does mean several classes instead of one single noble class.

That said, I would still like to see unusual subguilds in place for nobles.

QuoteI would think that most Nobles are not even competent to dress themselves, and the simple mechanics of preparing a meal would be so far beneath them as merit only disgust at the disgrace of actually touching unprepared food.

I completely disagree with this statement.  I like to think of Zalanthian
nobles as being closer in education to what Paul Atreides underwent.
His tutors were well aware of the possible dangers to his life, and so
they schooled him in self defense, history, geography, etc., tailoring
his education based on their values and goals at the time.  I don't
think any noble, not even Fale, should be uneducated and helpless.
It does the role and the setting a severe injustice.

While I understand the reasoning behind making a noble guild, I too agree its very hard to lump them all into one guild.  My suggestion is make a noble SUBGUILD, that has all the skills that nobles tend to have.  The subguild should have quite a bit more then normal subguilds in terms of skills added, but there will be some overlap, and more importantly these subguilds reflect the noble's clearly advantaged upbringing, so i dont see a problem with them offering more in the way of skills.  Keep in mind, I am suggesting these skills be at a subguild level, not a guild level.

Some suggested skills:

City Scan (if such a thing is possible)-  Nobles are trained from a young age to be observant, be it to watch for thieves, or to thwart an assassination attempt by noticing a stalker.

Listen -  Reflects their social nature.

Read/write -  nobles are educated and thus literate.

Parry -  Reflective of a nobles combat training in their youth.  (Set this at a specific level, and thats that.  Nobles should NOT have to spar to max out this subguild level skill)

Improved starting level of Contact - It just makes sense.  It makes sense for all guild, but at least with nobles, it makes even more sense because they're often using the way to contact servants rather then trudge through their huge estates to find one.

Quote from: "Intrepid"So basically, their primary guild being Fale, Tor, Oash, Borsail, Tenneshi,
etc. and subguilds being added as well?  I rather like that, even if it
does mean several classes instead of one single noble class.

That said, I would still like to see unusual subguilds in place for nobles.

I like it as well. This would be the most accurate way of going about things. Family name is the primary guild and reflective of family education and emphasis, and subguild allowing for tweaks.

I tend to agree with the comment that nobles do not really need skills. The only ones
absolutely necessary I would say would be, Listen and Peek. It was my understanding
they are supposed to be influencial, and not need such things. They are suppose to
be keeping other people busy...But I wonder, with their skills and them training them, how
can they be giving people jobs to do if they are able to do the jobs themselves just
as efficiently as a new hire? I say Nobles get only those two skills, and that is it. But I am an
extremeist(sp?)

PS> My spelling sucks

Quote from: "wizturbo"While I understand the reasoning behind making a noble guild, I too agree its very hard to lump them all into one guild.  My suggestion is make a noble SUBGUILD, that has all the skills that nobles tend to have.

I think for the idea of a noble "class" to be viable you'd need both a noble guild and a noble subguild, with a scattering of overlapping skills.   A noble pc will opt for one or the other.   The guild version would include higher starting %s on, for example, psionic abilities, and include RW siri  and whatever suite public & staff decide is "generic" and an interesting collection.  The subguild would grant, say, one crafting, RW siri and listen.

Thus a character who wanted to be a linguist can still be a linguist; alternately, the warrior-princes can choose a melee class and not have to pester clan imms to set noble-specific pieces.

Added:  I agree with players who have already stated that being a noble should not weigh heavily on skills but on charisma.

If all nobles did was keep other people busy, the noble houses would
not have their own subcultures and tasks.  Obviously, there's more to
their existences if Borsail breeds/trains slaves, Fale keeps the city
lively and Rennik handles many of the foreign relations and outer
village activities.  Should those quirks be taken away too, just because
a couple of players think that all nobles are uneducated and pretty
much all alike?  That they do nothing for themselves or for the city
they hold sway in?

As for having training meaning someone needs no one...if that was
so, warriors wouldn't be joining the Byn, since they of course need
no one.  Nobles, regardless of how well they may be trained at
something, anything, will still need to delegate to other house
members.  So what if a noble can fight?  Someone always knows
how to fight better.  Not to mention, your best warrior can still be
taken down via sheer numbers or lucky shots.  Guards take those
poisoned shots for you, act as extra eyes, even for the best warrior
on Zalanthas.

And although skills are not the be-all end-all of rp, they are not
meaningless, as this is not a mush.  We do not redo a death scene
here just because there was not enough twitch and one-liners in it.
Skills can mean the difference between life and death for a pc, and
not just fighting skills.  Noble houses, all of them, have had to contend
with assassination attempts and betrayals from even other nobles, so
in a society like Allanak's and Tuluk's, I have no doubt that nobles
would ALL be educated in doing something.

Personally, I don't see any particular need for a noble guild of its own. Noble PCs choose what skills they want basically by selecting the guild/subguild. While it does put a hamper on what they CAN do, the subclass aspect gives you a good deal of leeway. Anyways, as it is, a character is a character, their personalities are independent of skill sets and if you have a particular set of skills you want for your character, a noble guild likely won't resolve the problem as it too would be limited to X skills.

Since players don't really know the skill sets of guilds (or at least they shouldn't), perhaps those applying for noble roles could include a listing of desired skills (including reasons) and then the imm looking over the application could give suggestions as to guild/subguild so that the player will get most of what is desired. Any special requests for skills would then be like a special app process? For the staff, if a particular skill request were made repeatedly then it would be a good indicator noble players want that in a skillset, giving the basis for a tested, desired skill list (given a follow-up query some time after the noble character has been established and had a chance to use those skills [if at all]). Sure you won't get a spiffy skill set that makes you into a super hero but then again, most nobles won't have use for many skills (just a personal thought).

It very much depends on which house they're from, in my opinion.  Too many people think nobles are completely unfit and overwhelmingly pampered to the point that they're basically useless as a man, and from my very limited experience, that's untrue.  That's more in the public eye.

It also depends on the character itself...I really don't feel that consolidating all the nobles into one class is the best idea.  Every noble having the same skills?  Meh.  I kind of like the variety.  You can all complain about nobles having skills they shouldn't have, but really...who knows what a noble spends all that spare time of theirs when they're growing up doing?

They're educated.  They have spare time from all their lackeys taking care of things for them, so to speak.  They have time to develop in a multitude of certain ways.  That Borsail -could- be the one who spent time doing business and studying the documented 'laws of economics'...governing dynamics, so to speak, or he could be the sick fuck who fucked slaves to make babies so he could open them up and see what makes babies live....or die.  

I wouldn't be opposed to discussion over what skills should be had between the chosen player and their sponsoring immortal, but that's time consuming, and you'd end up with people applying for nobles just to have a 'badass' character, which would end up breaking the role-playing and tend towards 'my noble is a kickass thug, and he'll take your ass out himself.'  However, the versatility of the discussion allows for each noble to be unique and useable by it's clan in different ways, whether it be running the military unit a certain way or staying behind the scenes, just offering ideas based on their knowledge of what's happening in the city.

I don't feel -one- skillset for -all- nobles would be a very good idea, though.  Like I said...I like the variety.

My intent was not to claim that nobles were uneducated, nor untrained.  Rather that they were extremely well trained and committed to many things that have no coded counterpart.

To master all that is required to represent his House in all the complexities of their business surefootedly in the political arena; to develop plans and direct the resources of his Family and hundreds of commoners to fufill those goals, is more than any commoner could ever be expected to accomplish.  I just don't think it takes maxxed wall-climbing skilz to do it.


Seeker

Commoner pcs often have virtual skills in their repertoire...does that
mean they have no other skills in their list and we should therefore
remove all the commoner guilds?

What if you did have a vain, athletic noble who climbed walls?  Just to
complete your analogy, some individuals have reasons for their skills
that reflect their pc's concept.  In this case, the noble just happens to
run an obstacle course on the house grounds under the supervision of
the house staff, as he/she/it just needs to keep that perfectly fit body
so he/she/it does not end up like Cousin Tubby.  Or maybe said noble
is a paranoid survivalist of some sort and likes to prepare for
contingencies like being trapped down a mineshaft or a dried up ravine?
Maybe the pc happens to be a safari hunter of some sort and has been
stuck down a chasm before.  You can't generalize pc concepts like
that without generalizing all pc concepts, even commoners.

QuotePersonally, I don't see any particular need for a noble guild of its own. Noble PCs choose what skills they want basically by selecting the guild/subguild. While it does put a hamper on what they CAN do, the subclass aspect gives you a good deal of leeway.

Agreed. They should be fine using the guild/subguild that exist...if they need a skill or two add them in...I don't see that as being much of a problem since they are special app pcs.

I will say I am a bit biased in wanting to see more guilds and subguilds
for nobles, since I actually would like to see more guilds and subguilds
for everyone.  More types of merchants, more types of commoners,
more types of warriors, more types of nobles.  I think the fact that
we have three types of thieves in the game is great, but I would love
to see guilds better able to reflect demographics: Race, hometown,
clan, etc.  Basing noble classes off of house is a great way to do
this.  I think templars had something like this in place or had it at one
time, and it was pretty neat.

Basically, I like the idea of losing the generic catchall that guilds give
and basing it more on upbringing.

As someone who has played in Noble roles that contrast each other, I can personally say that I don't feel there should be a Noble GUILD.

In and out of those sponsored roles I've played, I've met VASTLY different noble PCs as well as the NPC's animated by the immortals from time to time. A single skill set would have made them all vastly predictable, as well as useless in some of the areas revolving around their concept.

It would also be a hamper on certain Noble types...

Imagine being a buff Tor, swinging your sword around and acting as if you know something, and on your way to the north to fight the great fight... You get owned by a scrab in front of all your Scorpions... but then again, weapon skills are really a pretty much required skill to the Tors only. So a pale-skinned Borsail with a pot belly and a chariot to car him around all day has slashing/chopping ect... And better than say, a starting non-warrior guild for what reason exactly?

While I understand that a Noble is above and beyond the common populace, I don't understand why we would want to codedly make them a near completely predictable thing for others to assume upon.

Now as Wizturbo said, I'd be more than happy to see a Noble subGUILD, with a few skills that all nobles would probably naturally develop growing up, or through practical tutoring.

-Listen
-Scan
-Read/Write
-Language Skill (A new language specific to only the Nobility, perhaps something like DnD's High Common - High Sirihish?)
-A Limited General Crafting - to stave off boredom.
-A bonus to starting contact and barrier, reflecting the endless hassling by tutors growing up as the young noble spent too much time with the pleasure slaves, smoking spice, ect...

Quote from: "Sanvean"
1) What skills should a noble absolutely have?

Listen, Peek, barrier, flee, Languages -lots- of them, reading and writing in -at least two-. Barter and for fun, I think poison would  be fun.

Quote from: "Sanvean"
2) Should nobles have their own set of subguilds as well, letting them pick, say, a noble that is combat-oriented, craft-oriented, stealth-oriented, lore-oriented, etc?

Yes, because each character is so different it is hard to give a specific skill set. But I think all Nobles/Templars should get automatic listen.

Quote from: "Sanvean"
3) Are there any noble skills that should be north or south specific?

That I don't know, I would think that more of the artistic skills would be given to the north, while more battle orientated ones should go to the south. That's just my opinion though.

Quote from: "Sanvean"
4) What noble-only skills might be useful?

Abscure language, also not a skill but in depth history and lore knowledge.

IMO game does not need another skill list. I believe merchant skill list has more than noble PCs need. Nobles have mostly uncoded skills. We do not have a charisma or inteligence stat so, there is no way to code them. :)

A noble born with such a wealth and slaves in the world of Zalanthas does not have to fight for his life so, probably he does not have any athletic skills in the list like parry, hide or sneak. (I ignore speacial cases like TOR) Maybe they have small hobbies of crafting and they must speak (sirihish, contact).. What else?

Pantaloufe's post is well thought out and I agree with it. I think most of the guilds that currently exist are pointless for nobles. But that's because I can't think of too many skills noble's need, and I definitely can't think of any branched skills.

I'd suggest (if it's at all possible) to allow noble PCs to forgo picking a guild and just pick 3 or 4 subguilds. Yes, they'll never branch a skill or ever become experts in anything, but I can't imagine why too many nobles would have a desire to become an expert in any skill. Perhaps it could be coded if they choose a noble class, that class bumps up the max for any subguild skills.

The only skill I would say are a must for any player that doesn't want to go insane with boredom is listen. For skills that would be good, Jacques has it completely right :)

If Nobles get their own subguilds I'd suggest considering making the subguild available to all (unless there are noble-only skills).

The only noble specific skill I can think of is writing style. Lets say there are 10 writing style skills (e.g. fluid, blocky, messy, etc, etc) and as a noble guild you can learn all of them eventually. You pick one to have 100% in, and then when someone reads your writing they see "written in a fluid handstyle in sirihish:" This would allow people to have to learn other styles so that they can forge other people's handwriting. It could be like language skills (so to change it would be "change style fluid")

Nobles pcs are characters first and nobles second.

I like wizturbo's idea best. Let the noble's player pick any of the usual guilds, and pick "noble" as a SUBguild.

This way, a Tor noble would have the warrior background that a typical Tor noble would have, and all the social graces that a noble of any House would have.

A Winrothol or Borsail noble might be more of the merchant type if they wanted - since their big "thing" is the slave trade.

And so on and so forth.

MUST haves for nobles: Read/write Sirihish at 100% perfect fluent levels.

Contact bumped up to at least halfway between what most human PCs start with and max.

Parry at a set level, no ability to improve; it's assumed he already had his training and isn't sparring in the barracks.

Listen; at a "competent" starting level.

Barrier; at any level higher than "Oh for chrissakes will everyone just shut the hell up?"

At least one craft other than cooking, maybe even allow the player to pick their preferred craft from the list during the character generation process.

I would also think a noble would come with at least some minimal level of piercing weapons; historically it was common in real life for nobles to have a small dagger or knife tucked away in a boot or wrist-sheath for emergencies.

That's all I can think of.

Turnover among the noble population is already high; possibly the highest of any role in the game - certainly more than merchants and templars, at least from what I have seen.  I look at a lot of the things suggested so far on this thread and think to myself, "If nobles were changed to be like that, I don't know if I'd want to play one."  Don't get me wrong, I -like- doing the whole noble thing; I'm completely enamored of the political and social game that nobles play.  I don't rely heavily on my skillset, but it is nice to -have- one to use when I do need it.

Any change made to nobles needs to reflect the fact that they can be both tedious and demanding to play at times, and a few coded skills can help relieve that burden.  I don't see a need for nobles to have branching skill trees, though; in fact, I think it might promote better roleplay if Lady Greensleeves wasn't "practicing" skill A in order to branch skill B because what she really wanted was skill B but it wasn't a starting skill for her skillset.

Ideally, what I'd like to see is a noble version of each class, maybe with a few skills trimmed out, and no branching.  To give a generic example, let's say the warrior starts with the Clubbing skill, and at some point, that branches into Whomping and Clobbering.  Well, Clobbering's not something a noble would ever learn, so our "noble" version of the warrior starts out with Clubbing and Whomping, and never gets Clobbering at all.

Skills that I believe should NOT be included in this "pre-formed" noble guild/subguild.  Keep in mind, I believe the noble SUBGUILD should be formed, so any exceptions can be made by choosing certain primary guilds.  So if you want that kleptomaniac pickpocket noble you can do so.  Below is a reflection of what I believe should not be "average" noble skills.

Peek-  This is THIEVES skills.  While it might be very useful (and indeed it is) nobles can hire thieves to go peeking around if they want that done.  It doesn't seem reasonable to say that the "average" noble would have such talents.

Crafting skills-  Sorry, but I don't think nobles would craft anything.  The concept of "holding off boredom" is NO reason to have a certain set of skills.  ICly, if a noble is bored they get entertainment, be it a pleasure slave, a bard, a bottle of fine wine or a bowl of spice, they do NOT start knitting like a peasant.  If you want to make a crafting noble (who is probably more of a designer then craftsmen), the merchant primary guild is available, and can allow that.

Racial languages-  While *some* nobles might have reason to learn allundean or mirukkim, MANY would not.  Slaver houses might speak Mirukkim, as dwarven slaves are common, but why would they speak elven?  If a noble stayed in their estate their entire life, they would never see an elf let alone learn to speak their language.  Scholarly nobles might speak many languages, but it should not be considered the norm.

I see no reason why a noble should start with the parry skill while other guilds, some of which are much more worthy, have to branch or just live without it.  The same goes for weapon skills.

About written languages, it is completely beyond me why every noble should be able to read and write in more than one language.  If they have this ability, it should be explained in their backgrounds somehow.


There is no true justification as to why a noble should have any skills other than listen, to be quite honest.  Not every guild starts with the Scan skill, and yet every Zalanthan should have the common sense to always keep an eye open.  Nobles, in fact, are just about the only people who have bodyguards around them at all times whose very job is to keep an eye open.  If anything, they should be worse at this than Joe Schmoe.

It makes perfect sense for me that a noble will be absolutely useless when compared to anyone else.  That's what they are - people with slaves and cooks and bodyguards that probably don't even know how to wipe their asses because they never had to try.


Here's what I say, then:  Nobles should get no weapon skills at all, contact and barrier with a tiny bonus, listen, ride, analyze, and possibly sleight of hand, and a crafting skill or two of their choice (with wagonmaking and the sort excluded).  Other than this, they should get Sirihish (with R/W included), and a language or two of their choice, without R/W.
No forage, no cooking, and possibly not even haggle since most nobles probably don't try to get lower prices in the marketplace.

Warrior nobles should take a Warrior guild, just like warrior thieves and and warrior merchants need to take it.  This will make the vast majority of nobles vastly inferior to normal people, and I think this is a very accurate reflection of reality.  Take a noble and put them in a new body and send them to live like a commoner, and they wouldn't last a year unless they somehow lucked out and got hired as aides or concubines.


Any other skills specific to the noble should be discussed with the clan staff members or the MUD account.


Also, I see no reason why nobles should have a special 'High Sirihish' language.  I believe that there are enough characters of an at least medium upbringing that should let them understand at least most of what they would say, which would make this little more than an annoyance.  If you want to talk in a language that nobody else understands, get something obscure like Anyar, Tatlum or Heshrak.

You guys are all right.

Nobles do -nothing- with their spare time growing up, learn how to do -nothing- at all.  They all just sit there and read books, get tutored, and get fat.

Please...a noble's lifestyle may be drastically different, but they aren't just floating heads, you know.  The idea of making nobles walking mortal targets for anyone with better skills than the average npc guard is...somewhat retarded, in my opinion.  I think they've had enough time to learn what will or may be useful in their future.

And also, I disagree with nobles having scan.  With people who rarely take note of those below them, I don't think they are going to be constantly searching for thieves and assassins in their daily work.  Unless it's in their background or personality somewhere to be paranoid.  This is what noble guards are used for.

Quote from: "Larrath"I see no reason why a noble should start with the parry skill while other guilds, some of which are much more worthy, have to branch or just live without it.  The same goes for weapon skills.

Almost all nobles are trained in combat at a young age, its said in the docs outright.  Personally, I think some nobles should be the most talented warriors in the entire world in a dueling sense.  They have the money to afford the best trainers, and the free-time to spend perfecting their art.  Unfortunately, the only way to learn combat is by sparring, and thats not something a noble would do with non-virtual people so they end up sucking.  

On a bit of a tangent, I -really- would love to see some kind of duel culture amongst the noble houses, where quarrels are settled by duels.  Not all of them need to be to the death, it could be to first blood, like many were in the past real life history.  I just see sooo much neat roleplay that could stem from something like that.

Nobles also view fighting as barbaric and beneath them, and do not really train because it doesn't take more than a poisoned throwing knife to end it all for them.  For the same reasons, there isn't a dueling culture on Zalanthas, at least with the nobles.  It just doesn't prove anything and puts them at great risk.

I really don't want to list what guilds don't get parry but should get them sooner than those noble wussies do.


Hey, I learned Karate for a few years when I was young, but it sure as hell doesn't mean I can outfight anything at all.  The combat training nobles get probably sum up to "don't let them hit the blood vessels, get behind the guards as soon as you possibly can, and hold the weapons right so you don't look like an idiot in front of that Salarri".  Nobles who truly devoted their lives to fighting (or have some fighting abilities) should pick an appropriate guild, be it a warrior or a burglar.

It is a player's responsibility to use their skills in a realistic manner.

Nobles are NOT trained in combat.  None.  Not even Tor and Lyskae, except VERY odd cases.

Nobles run the show, they don't DO the show.  Most nobles are taught that to spar with anyone runs the risk of poisoned weapons.  Anyone that spars, should run that risk.  I've actually considered giving some of those nobles that spar a little scare by poisoning a weapon with something non-lethal but scary so that they learn a lesson.

Continue the discussion.

Xamminy, that's ridiculous. Personally I view the "fat, inept rich-boy" image that we associate with nobles as VERY un-Zalanthan. These are the senatorial families of two city-states that have been at WAR with each other for-friggin-ever. The templars may very specifically be the official law and order of each king, but that shouldn't mean that nobles are restricted from doing anything with their very important, very expensive lives but sit around and try to look good. Nobles looking down upon martial activities as barbaric, or below them? Absolute nonsense. Eating cheap food or sharing a drink with a commoner may be below a noble. Formal training (by someone trusted with your life every day anyway) to keep your body perfect so your ass stays alive is NOT below a noble, it's a privilege. It's Zalanthas, man.

So to answer the topic's question, noble should perhaps be an invisible subguild that consists of a set of minor skills (listen, as everyone says) that can be attached by the pc's sponsor upon creation. Let main guild remain up to the player, as appropriate. And cut it out with this "don't be anything but a wad of worthless, cookie-cutter chairwarming dogshit" business, please.

Nobles should not have listen/sneak/hide. They should have -others- do it for them. Now if they picked a sneaky subguild, sure. Nobles aren't bred to be informants, so they have to hire some.

I'm in a hurry, so I can't look up who I am agreeing with...(see above)

I like the Guild: Noble  (or)  Subguild: Noble option.

Two reasons for this.  One, it allows Nobles to have a little more personality.  Two, it makes sure that people aren't certain what the guild of any noble is OOC.

Noble guild skills: poison(!) (maybe branching to this); piercing weapons (hidden daggers); reading/writing; a second language...perhaps languages for the noble houses as codes (cool, but maybe too much of a game-change); value: (what was the original skill name?  the ability to know what things are worth...not for selling necissarily, but to know when to turn one's nose up in the air).  Listen might be useful as well.  Ride seems to be a likely choice.

That's my two cents.

Morrolan

I concur with Dig on that 100%. I can't see any reason why a noble would be expected to be a chair warmer, in fact that is one of the things that can make the role so difficult.

Can't see it at all. Especially with war related houses. I mean, when you speak of poisoning sparring weapons??

First all the guards use those weapons every day so the chances of killing a guard are more likely. Secondly, I don't have a secondly, if you are going to poison a noble, why not poison something that they are sure to use. Like a favorite wine glass in their room or something. That just seems very over zealous and frankly an abuse of Imm power. I would be irate if I found out that my Imm did that. I don't think I have ever heard of a single time a player has died that way. I mean if someone can get in to a noble house and plant a poisoned weapon, and by luck a noble faces off –against- that weapon. I'd say that's a really impressive assassination and not a bad way to go.

Other than that If you were to speak of PC's. Well you trust them to guard you –all- the time.

It seems ridiculous that a noble, should they choose that path of education would be unable to learn to defend themselves. I mean surely I would think that they would be extra cautious and only train with certain people, but to say that they should not train at all.. That just doesn't make sense. In fact they should be privy to the –Best- training.

Being good at Martial arts has never been looked down upon in Arm, so I don't see why they should all have to choose the path of being worthless weaklings sitting in a tavern. There are plenty of other things out there that can kill them that are far more risky than a chance encounter with a sparring weapon.

Quote from: "House Rising Sun"Personally I view the "fat, inept rich-boy" image that we associate with nobles as VERY un-Zalanthan.

I disagree with that. Once Tlaloc has written by email that I totally agree with:

QuotePhysical activity is -uncommon- for nobles, since they don't have to do things like lift heavy stuff, or break a sweat. Breaking a sweat, for leasure is a western based concept - not something Zalanthan.

Since there are thongs of slaves around, athletic perfection of the body seems far from Zalanthan noble for me.

Quote from: "Xamminy"Nobles are NOT trained in combat.  None.  Not even Tor and Lyskae, except VERY odd cases.

I totally disagree with that statement. In other Houses I can see that being the very odd case but not in Tor or other militaristic type Houses.

Now, on noble skills :

Sirihish

Cavilish

RW Sirihish

RW Cavilish

Listen

Higher psionic start sets (they are educated and probably trained from youths on protecting their minds)

Weapon skills but in the more civilized types. Perhaps swords and daggers, whips.

Shield use

dual use

scan

ride

High wisdom roll sets (they are educated)

Hmm, probably leaving out some, but a general thought on what they could possibly start with.

Quote from: "Xamminy"Nobles are NOT trained in combat.  None.  Not even Tor and Lyskae, except VERY odd cases.

Nobles run the show, they don't DO the show.  Most nobles are taught that to spar with anyone runs the risk of poisoned weapons.  Anyone that spars, should run that risk.  I've actually considered giving some of those nobles that spar a little scare by poisoning a weapon with something non-lethal but scary so that they learn a lesson.

Continue the discussion.

Quote from: "House Rising Sun"And cut it out with this "don't be anything but a wad of worthless, cookie-cutter chairwarming dogshit" business, please.

Yea. I mean, I understand what you're trying to accomplish by discouraging martial nobles, but I cannot get *why* ....If one of the Imms wouldn't mind explaining the rational here, I think players would be alot more open to actually taking it seriously.

How does this make sense in the context of the zalanthan world, increase players enjoyment of the game, keep things balanced....anything...please..? I mean does it draw from some historical/fictional equivalent that I'm completely missing? Tor's not trained in combat? eh wah? That like the shogun not knowing how to use a sword.

Seriously when it comes to this policy in the game my brain does a total disconnect. I just don't get it.

Yes, indeed, Tor nobles, I know for sure are trained in combat, as the documents themselves say so.

QuoteWeapon skills but in the more civilized types. Perhaps swords and daggers, whips.

What is considered a civilized weapon on Zalanthas, if anything?

Quote from: "Sanvean"1) What skills should a noble absolutely have?

Contact.
A Language skill.

- Anything else is fluff

Quote from: "Sanvean"2) Should nobles have their own set of subguilds as well, letting them pick, say, a noble that is combat-oriented, craft-oriented, stealth-oriented, lore-oriented, etc?

If the subclasses are 'good' enough, yes.  Is there any other way to say that?  ;P

Quote from: "Sanvean"3) Are there any noble skills that should be north or south specific?

Not from the present set of skills in game, no.

Quote from: "Sanvean"4) What noble-only skills might be useful?

NEW SKILLS!!!   Let me think about this for a while.

I disagree that Cavalish should be any part of a automatic package for Nobles.  Bad idea.

But sarahjc's poisoning skill suggestion.... thumb's up.

Quote from: "Dirr"

QuoteWeapon skills but in the more civilized types. Perhaps swords and daggers, whips.

What is considered a civilized weapon on Zalanthas, if anything?

Hmm, I dont know. But bashing and smashing, guts and blood on the noble's clothes just didnt seem...civilized, ya know?

heheh :)

QuoteHmm, I dont know. But bashing and smashing, guts and blood on the noble's clothes just didnt seem...civilized, ya know?

You can expect that exact result from any weapon, unless they invented light sabers that cauterize wounds.... DID THEY INVENT LIGHT SABERS? Because if they did... and I missed it, I shall be very upset.

Sa'alam.

Quote from: "Dirr"

QuoteHmm, I dont know. But bashing and smashing, guts and blood on the noble's clothes just didnt seem...civilized, ya know?

You can expect that exact result from any weapon, unless they invented light sabers that cauterize wounds.... DID THEY INVENT LIGHT SABERS? Because if they did... and I missed it, I shall be very upset.

Sa'alam.

Gasp! You didnt get one?  It was in my newbie pack on my first log in! Dude! Write the mud! You got gipped!

Sirihish, RW
Flee
Slashing weapons
Piercing weapons
Shields_use
Dual_wield
Parry
Easier to get Dehydrated (Because they aren't outside a lot, most of them)
Ride
Haggle
Listen
Nocrimflag
Value
Contact
Barrier
Break

Maybe Branched- Parry, Value, scan, Brewing, poison.

Bonus to Wisdom, Negative to Endurance

These are the Base skills I think they should have.

Scan- removed because they wouldn't be looking for thieves, that is what their guards are for.

Quote from: "Xamminy"Nobles are NOT trained in combat.  None.  Not even Tor and Lyskae, except VERY odd cases.

Is this considered staff policy?  If so, i'm shocked.  It makes absolutely no sense to me.  All it would take is a single slave to attack the noble while their bodyguard is looking the other way, and thats the end of it.  Absolutely ludacris to me.

Xamminy, I think you're wrong.  

Tor nobles go through the academy before being able to instruct or command a unit of scorpions.  Most (from the looks of it, this isn't in documentation) seem to have gone through the officer's program as well.

Many a noble have made a 'hobby' out of swordplay, even if they're not from a military house, at least historically (that doesn't say anything for arm, but it can be compared/contrasted).

QuoteIs this considered staff policy? If so, i'm shocked. It makes absolutely no sense to me. All it would take is a single slave to attack the noble while their bodyguard is looking the other way, and thats the end of it. Absolutely ludacris to me.

QuoteMany a noble have made a 'hobby' out of swordplay, even if they're not from a military house, at least historically (that doesn't say anything for arm, but it can be compared/contrasted).

I fully support the status quo.

I don't think there's a need to add or change a class or classes to be noble-specific.

I'll take a stab at this....first since nobles are all special apped characters, and experienced players we don't need to stick to the "suck at start" rule with them.

Skills:

Contact, Barrier (at higher than newbie levels)

The usual: shield_use, two-handed, dual_wield etc.

No forage or cooking skill at all. (nobles don't do that stuff)

Parry, slashing and piercing.  (The hitch is the skills should start out at a moderate level, but max at only a slightly higher level.  Like starting at 40% and maxing at 50%.  That discorages nobles sparring but makes them reasonably decent fighters so they don't get beaten up by beggars and thieves.  But it doesn't make them stronger than veteren combat pcs)

Listen, scan.  (Scan should max out fairly low)

Sirihish, RW_Sirihish (usual noble stuff)

Branching: None.

Noble-only subguilds.

Mercantile: Cavilish, RW_cavilish, haggle, pilot.
Martial: Slashing, Piercing, chopping, bludgeoning (at higher start and max levels than normal nobles)
Spymaster: Sneak, Hide, Peek, Search.
Artisan: Cooking, Jewelrymaking, Floristry, Clothworking. (no supporting skills for those, you have underlings for that).

Normal subguilds available: Physician, Linguist.


I think this would work if there was a noble guild.

Nobles should probably not have listen. Eavesdropping seems below them. The last time I played a noble, I used listen a ton, and in retrospect would have felt a lot better if I'd had to hire someone to go spy on people.

I would like to see two base noble classes: martial and political. Only nobles with specific ass-kickery-training would get the martial class.

Both would get contact/barrier, r/w sirihish, value, haggle and ride, as well as the 'intrinsic' flee, dual_wield, two_handed, and shield_use.

Both could learn bandaging to a moderate (rangerish?) degree, though most nobles would never see any need to. Forage and cooking start at zero and progress very slowly as well, since nobles would hardly ever use them.

Further, give martial nobles not-terrible weapon skills (three-or-four day warriorish, maybe) and archery, and branching access to parry, disarm and charge (at below-warrior levels) and poison (at below-ranger-level). Their starting skills would represent a life of refined, Tor-esque training and sparring, while the branching skills could represent future potential - but since the noble wouldn't generally have to fight for his life as often as Joe Commoner Fighter, his skills are nowhere near a warrior's in combat. Also, since he's batshit rich he might have access to poison, and it's nice to be actually able to use it without having to power-up some godawful burglar or assassin trick. Odds are martial nobles would still be the best warriors, most of the time, simply because they wouldn't all die before reaching their potential. That being said, Wandering Elite Swordsman Bob could probably get better, having to fight for his life all the time and such.

Give political nobles maybe a language of their choice at a low level of proficiency, much slower progression with weapon skills (and a much lower, merchant or assassin-esque skill cap), and branching access to poison, sleight of hand, and maybe maybe maybe a low-capped backstab. If the noble wants to learn a crafting skill, he should either make a note of it in his application or get tutored a lot in-character and request it.

Martial nobles might look 'better' in some cases, but tavern-sitting, wine-swilling political types are the norm. Martial nobles would generally just be the Tor/Borsail/Winrothol army leader types.

IMO we need to focus and put our effort in creating a classless system for everyone.  This would affect nobles as well, and will allow players to pick their skills to best match their character's history.

I still think nobles should get cavilish as they are learned individuals. Do you think that a noble would really let a merchant have an upper hand on them? Who taught the merchants how to speak ,and a select few, read and to write in cavilish in the first place as it's illegal for commoners to read and write?

Quote from: "Ayashah"I still think nobles should get cavilish as they are learned individuals. Do you think that a noble would really let a merchant have an upper hand on them? Who taught the merchants how to speak ,and a select few, read and to write in cavilish in the first place as it's illegal for commoners to read and write?

Cavilish is an off-shoot of Bendune. Merchant houses descend from the nomadic tribes. Their families learn it from each other; nobles have little, if anything, to do with it.

Yeah, not trying to de-rail, but I don't see why Cavilish should be needed more than any other language. Also Cavilish is kept rather guarded by Merchants. Very few teach it to outsiders. It should be an option I think. But not a garuntee.

Also, nobles have -lots- of money. I should think the last thing that they would be concerned with, is the price of anything.

Quote from: "Bestatte"Cavilish is an off-shoot of Bendune. Merchant houses descend from the nomadic tribes. Their families learn it from each other; nobles have little, if anything, to do with it.

I am aware its an off-shoot of Bendune but they didnt know how to read and write it, just talk. Someone made up the alphabet, etc. Now, since the nobles wanted to keep people ignorant, it would stand to reason they would have off'd those that could to keep others ignorant. IE why someone had to TEACH the merchants how to read and write, those few that can. Granted, every noble I had was given it anyways but because of their duties within the House, so it might just be given to every noble already. :)

I do like the other suggestion of making it an option to choose.

Actually, it is the Merchant houses that have taught Cavilish and how to read and write it. It's also not widely known that they can read and write. That's why you really never see a Merchant family member reading/writing in public. It's not something  that they announce. It's kind of known and swept under the rug. I think that the Templars would allow it only because, with such massive production, they would be keeping ledgers to keep track of orders and things like that or at least I would think that is "why" they were allowed to have it at first. Also Merchant Families are some of the wealthiest people in the game. They too can spend most of their young life studying, free from the struggles that other common folks.

I have never gotten Cavilish as an automatic for one of my nobles, and I  know a few others that struggled trying to learn it.  It's not that I don't think it should be a choice. I think every noble should be fluent in a few languages. And perhaps some of the more obscure ones.

I'd like to see an imm opinion on this as well.

I kinda like the idea of "multiple choice" options for nobles.

Such as:

You can pick either a combat-oriented, or merchant-oriented Noble.

If you pick combat-oriented, you have these options:

Pick two from the following:

slashing, bludgeoning, piercing, throwing, whatever else.

Plus shield

Pick two from the following:

Bonus to raw defense, bonus to raw offense, low-capping mid-starting parry, bonus to unarmed.

Pick one from the following: (blahblah blah and so on and so forth)

If you pick merchant-oriented, you have these options:

Pick 2 from the following:

(list of all the kinds of crafting skills that a merchant-based noble MIGHT want to have as a hobby, not capable of mastery - just something they would dabble in, and have a solid understanding of, such as a Tor noble knowing a lot about weapon types, enough that he might try and fashion a few just for fun on occasion)

Pick 2 from the following:

Boost to haggle, boost to value, boost to pilot, boost to listen.

All nobles: expert in read/write sirihish

Pick 2 from the following languages:

Cavilish, Allundean, Bendune, Anyar, Mirrukim

Of the two you pick, choose which one will get a skill boost to "proficient."

Option to have low-starting, low-capped skill in read Cavilish, but not write cavilish.

and so on and so forth. Let them pick things from each of the various categories of skills, but only allow them a limit to how many choices they can pick.

Agreed, Bestatte. I like that a lot :)

Having personally witnessed the opening of the Tor house to players and
seeing the charter noble pcs, I would have to say that they were
extremely martial.  With the coming of this academy and more additions
to the house, I believe it has become even moreso.  I find it very
difficult to believe that the house has changed so much that someone
would say those nobles are not warriors anymore.  They sure were
when the house first came into play.  I would rather see variety within
the noble houses than some blanket statement that erroneously places
them all under a single definition.  If they're all dandies and fops who
sit in the taverns all day getting wasted, it makes Fales far less special
as a noble house.  Just as, if they were all warriors, Tors would be
less special.  I hope this is carefully re-examined.

By the same token, just because a noble can scan, it does not mean
that they do not require another set of eyes scanning for them.  Just
as another set of arms in defense is needed as well.  No guard is ever
useless just because a noble can fight, as the combat code does take
superior numbers into account.

Quote from: "sarahjc"Actually, it is the Merchant houses that have taught Cavilish and how to read and write it. It's also not widely known that they can read and write. That's why you really never see a Merchant family member reading/writing in public. It's not something  that they announce. It's kind of known and swept under the rug. I think that the Templars would allow it only because, with such massive production, they would be keeping ledgers to keep track of orders and things like that or at least I would think that is "why" they were allowed to have it at first. Also Merchant Families are some of the wealthiest people in the game. They too can spend most of their young life studying, free from the struggles that other common folks.

Merchants/Merchant Houses are commoners whom havent always been around. They rose in the ranks to great Merchant Houses which means at sometime in the waaaaaaaaaaaaaay distant past they didnt know how to read and write. Someone taught them. I am not saying nowadays they learned it or the nobles have a problem with it. I am talking about the dark ages when they first emerged. *wink*  :)

Like I said, my nobles had it but I think I also said it MIGHT have been the class/subclass that I took that gave it to me. Not sure. That or the imm over my clan set me up with it. :)

Quote from: "sarahjc"Also, nobles have -lots- of money. I should think the last thing that they would be concerned with, is the price of anything.

Knowing Cavilish doesnt equate with wanting a cheaper price. *chuckles*

I also know of a certain noble house that taught some of it's concubines how to read and write cavilish.

I am sure someone somewhere taught a merchant how to read and write, but who says it was a noble house *wink*. Also those noble houses came from somewhere a long, long time ago as well. Who knows.. Only the eye in the sky really, I'll say we can only guess.

As for noble houses teaching Cavilish. Again, I don't know too much about it. I am sure that was one -very- special case. Like I said, I don't think that it couldn't be learned. I just don't see the connection been Cavilish and ALL noble houses. I see it as handy, but no more handy then lets say Allundeen, which is far more useful.  

Maybe some houses have that connection, but maybe not all. I always looked at Cavilish as strictly a Merchant Language. Something that I don't think it should be mandate. I would asume that getting that language on your skill set has to do with what your skill set was. See as I how I've played and known a quite a few nobles that did not have it.

Here's my take on it.  Remember, if this is a new guild, then you will be set with a higher skill percentage than other characters, showing that you've put time and effort into the following skills.  At least, that's my take on it.  This way, you won't have to be sparring newbies, because you're a noble...a special app.

Noble Guild:

Psionic Powers:
Contact
Barrier

Combat Skills:
Dual Wield
Two Handed
Sheild Use

Perception Skills:
Forage  
Scan - Low, cap dependable on subclass
Listen - Low, cap dependable on subclass

Language skills:
Sirihish
RW Sirihish
 
Craft skills:
Cooking
Analyze


Combat Subclass:
NEW SKILL:
BattleCry - Causes everyone clanned in your clan to flee, higher percentage makes everyone flee in the same direction.


Offence and Defense increased.
Slashing Weapons - Cap higher end - starting percentage dependable on age
Piercing Weapons - Cap higher end - starting percentage dependable on age
+ Two weapons skills that branch from those two.
Chopping Weapons - Cap midrange
Bludgeoning Weapons - Cap midrange
Backstab
Disarm
Flee
Guarding
Rescue
Parry
Throw
Bandage

Brew
Ride

Sword Making
Knife Making

Scan - Able to detect mildly skilled rogues
Listen - Not able to listen to whispers or in another room



Stealth Subclass:[/b]
NEW SKILL:
Disguise - Causes you to change your main description and sdesc into something different, with notable timer before affect.  Can only change in a 'safe' room, much like the tattoo code.

Piercing Weapons
Backstab
Throw
Flee

Sleight Of Hand
Steal
Hide
Peek
Pick
Search
Climb
Brew
Poisoning
Trap

Value
Haggle

Listen - Higher end of the ability
Scan - Higher end of the ability




Lore Subclass:
NEW SKILL:
One spell generated from a list of the starting spells of the 6 elementalists. (Remember, there is no nilaz)

Haggle
Sleight Of Hand
Peek
Brew
Value
Pilot
Search
Skin

Cavilish
RW Cavilish
Allundean
Mirukkim

Cooking Skill Raised
skill_floristry
skill_dyeing
skill_weaving
skill_woodworking
skill_leatherworking
skill_clothworking

Listen - Higher end of the ability
Scan - Higher end of the ability

Mansa: Once again you are my Hero. I REALLY like the new skills.. And I LOVE the BattleCry skill.

Love it! Love it! Could kiss and hug it. Love it.


The Pink Rhino loves up the BattleCry skill.

Quote from: "sarahjc"I am sure someone somewhere taught a merchant how to read and write, but who says it was a noble house *wink*. Also those noble houses came from somewhere a long, long time ago as well. Who knows.. Only the eye in the sky really, I'll say we can only guess.

Cool. I see you finally got where my point was coming from. :)  Usually the educated teach the uneducated and yep, nobles came from somewhere long long ago before the merchant houses came. *wink* :)

We can only guess and suppose which was what this was about. I still stand that the nobles would know cavilish. Maybe not all but definitely quite a few. I would see them wanting to learn cavilish before allundean. Who wants to talk to a filthy elf? In filthy elf tongue?!

RW Cavilish all the way baby! That way when you have to write up contracts and sign them with merchants, as I have in the past, you can actually know they didnt write:

"You filthy kank! I wouldnt trade squat with your skinny ass. Cant even get some curves from water with all the sid in the world!"

Handing the scroll over to Lord Fancypants, tone meek, you say in sirihish, "There, Lord Fancypants, the contract is written in full. I will take that huge bag of sid now and live up to my end of the deal. Thank you, Lord."

Think I've known half-giants with more brains! *evil mental cackles*

Contact, Barrier, Read and Write Sirihish, Sirihish and nothing else.  Not even flee.

No other language skills, no combat skills, no trading skills.  

That's if my interpretation of how lazy nobles are is correct.  Others seem to think of nobles as being given elite training in different areas.

To me a noble wouldn't deign to speak languages that are beneath them and wouldn't sully their hands with commoner tools such as a sword.  Wouldn't cook, wouldn't learn to haggle and wouldn't learn to keep a keen eye on the goings-on around them.

There are commoners and slaves to do these things, you see.  Maybe the lower tier houses would have things differently.

That's just my interpretation, though, I have no idea if I'm correct.

I don't want to argue with any of you.

Simply remember what I said about why.  Nobles can be 'taught' how to do things, but they will never be good at them, because they should NEVER practice them.  Nobles have guards to do combat.  The noble just need to know the theory.

Nobles should never spar except under extreme circumstances, and I've already said why.  Most people that play martial nobles spar.  This is bad.

Quote from: "Xamminy"I don't want to argue with any of you.

Simply remember what I said about why.  Nobles can be 'taught' how to do things, but they will never be good at them, because they should NEVER practice them.  Nobles have guards to do combat.  The noble just need to know the theory.

Nobles should never spar except under extreme circumstances, and I've already said why.  Most people that play martial nobles spar.  This is bad.

I find this is very wrong...

Not only is it written in the documents of one House that certain nobles of the House train themselves routinely, but there is also a designated area for them to spar, with seperate, locked away weapons for the practices as well, to try and avoid any unlawful taintings. In this area, the common are -not- allowed at any time unless invited by a noble of that House; it is strictly for them to use with each other, as they are expected to learn. I cannot fathom having such a facility if it's not to be used, because it's wrong.

A person can only have so much in book smarts before 'on the job' trainingis a required fact for improvement, and assuredness of ability. And when it gets to that point, the militant nobles have only experience to turn to, which is provided in friendly skills of arms with their family. Not only does this enhance them further in the fact that they -are- better, but it also gives them true knowledge of situations at hand, so they won't look ignorant when training their men, or in the case they end up on the field of battle.

Now on the other hand, sparring with a commoner, I can agree would not be done, in any circumstance whatsoever. but from my experience with the militant Houses, very rarely are any of the members of them roly-poly, lazy, useless, ect... Most of them look for honor and dignity in being a great warrior.

In House Tor for instance, you'll see that the Red Scorpions have shoulder straps, with pins detailing their dominant abilities and leadership skills. Look at any Tor noble, and you'll see that they have one as well, albeit much more expensive looking.  These pins aren't earned by way of listening to another noble telling you how to do their job. They're earned by showing that the noble deserves it.

QuoteMost people that play martial nobles spar. This is bad.

I'd have to disagree with this. I sincerely hope this isn't a staff position on this.

IC -

Some nobles will and are expected to be savy in weapon skills. House documents support this fact. Unless said documents are wiped and changed, it is IC for them to train.

Some nobles would look severely down on any that are savy in weapon skills. House documents support this fact. Unless said documents are wiped and changed, it is IC for them to think those that lower themselves to handling a weapon are below them.

OOC -

Nobles are very limiting, and at times, boring roles that are kept more in the dark at times than commoners. Things nobles should 'pick up' from their Houses to run their day to day duties are sometimes kept from them with the 'you are a low noble and dont need to know'. Granted, maybe they dont need to know but rumors, false or true, should circulate in from servants for an idea on 'how' the Seniors feel on something so that they have a feel for how they do their duties.

Those taking these roles know they are limiting and accept that with the role. Now, asking a player to play a limiting role AND expecting them to be on often to keep the PCs in their House occupied and enjoying their rp time with the House, then giving them absolutely no outlet to whittle away the long hours when none of their PCs are on will only lead to less players wanting to bother with the roles. I have heard many players complain on these very things and say they are pretty happy when their PCs die so they can go have fun. This is not always the case but some do feel that way.

There is a player behind that role that wants to enjoy the role just as much as the player behind the cook in the clan. To limit the role to "you must play a flop because you are too good to do anything but lay about and order others to wipe your crack" will, in my thoughts, limit the amount of players that will want to play nobles. Its sort of like the independents. Why should they join a clan is an attitude some have. They can make more in a RL week, not have restrictions, etc.

Some might say "nobles are there to help the imms facilitate rp within the clan and have taken on that responsibility". Agreed, they have. But they arent machines either. You see it all the time:

New noble, on a ton. Had the noble awhile, log times start to be short or sporadic. Longer the noble is in game, the less seen about. Post goes on the GDB for openings in said House for new nobles.

I guess I am rambling now. Its early and my coffee hasnt kicked in. Basically, take what few pleasure the players of the nobles have to fill in time when they arent plotting and are basically idling to be available to the other players in the House and you make the role very unappealing to fill.

Just my 2 sids and not meant to be presented as the opinion in whole on the mud or even in part.

QuoteMost people that play martial nobles spar. This is bad.

I agree that quote.

Why would a noble spar? To protect himself in danger? or winning aganist duels aganist the men under his command? Or to become a leader in an assult?

There are nobles who live to fight and lead armies in both Cities. They are called Templar.

I do not think an ordinary noble has something to do with fighting, therefore I believe there shouldn't be even a piece of fighting skills in a noble's list.

A second point I'd like to mention (I hope not too IC). There are many guilds in game that have almost no combat skills in their list. That seems a bit unrealistic to me since I am sure an adult D-elf would have a weapon skill even in low degree because they have to live in wilderness, had to protect themselves in some decree. On the other hand there is no weapon skill in their list. I believe there are merchanic reasons why they do not have.

IMO that's same for a usual noble, they should not have any combat skills in their list. That could be unrealistic a bit, but with this way they suit game mechanics better.

I'd REALLY like a Highlord or above statement on this.  What Xamminy is saying seems contradictory to a lot of things i've seen in game, and I'd like to know whether or not I should unlearn those things.


With that said...

Poisons are not all together uncureable.  Having an extremely loyal house physician on hand, or, if your house doesn't mind hiring magicker (Oash and Tor both hire magickers) then it wouldn't be completely out of the question to have a master healer Vivadu on hand, one that has been thoroughly tested to be absolutely certain of their loyalty.  Also, the Templarate has the capabilities of curing poisons, so if poisoned a noble could call for a Templar to come to the rescue, while the house physician does what they can to slow the poison.  

I could easily see Senior nobles never sparring.  They're too important to risk it.  But a junior noble is OFTEN not so closely guarded.  I don't see all Junior nobles having servants with them to taste every piece of food or drink brought to them to test for poison.  I don't see people brought to them for a meetings thoroughly searched for weapondry before hand.  MANY precautions when dealing with junior nobles are not taken, so I really don't see why sparring is a "No No".  Sparring with some common no-body of course would be absolutely unheard of, but sparring with a life sworn swordmaster that has faithfully served the House for decades doesn't seem unlikely to me.  Or, sparring with extremely loyal slaves doesn't seem unheard of either.  The very small risk of dying from a poisoned sparring weapon in my opinion, is worth taking, in comparison to the enormous danger of being unable to defend themselves from any common fellow with a dagger that manages to penetrate their guards.  

Again, I'd -really- like a Highlord or above's opinion on this so I can properly adjust my roleplay when applicable in the future.

QuoteWhy would a noble spar? To protect himself in danger? or winning aganist duels aganist the men under his command? Or to become a leader in an assult?

There are nobles who live to fight and lead armies in both Cities. They are called Templar.

-To protect himself from danger: Check. If you're a noble of a military House and someone gets past your guards, it would probably be a big downplay of the House's reputation to see you fall to a filthy, murdering commoner. But on the other hand, you're the militant noble, powerful, and any commoner who would get past your guards has just made a mistake in coming face to face with a 'true' warrior.

-Winning against duels against the men under his command? Never. A noble would never duel a common man unless it was specifically in his defense. In fact, the noble would be laughed at for lowering himself to be the aggressor in crossing swords with a commoner if he struck first, no matter whether it was his own men or not. But there is one House out there who DOES practice the use of challenging for a duel against another noblilty if they feel they have been GREATLY wronged.

-To become a leader in an assault. Check. While a noble would never put himself on the front line in a battle when there is common blood to fight it out first, many a times, the nobility of a militant House WILL accompany their men, or their City's Templarate on a mission outside.  What good will he do out there if personally attacked? No good if he isn't prepared... Very good if he's trained as a MILITANT person should.

-About Templars: Yes, they do lead armies, they lead the respective militia of each side, not the military units of a militant House. That's what the  militant nobles of the militant Houses do.

I don't buy into the idea that a militant noble is Van Dammeing his martial skills, just looking good at it and never truly training to be effective in it. I've also been playing the game for a few years, and never in my time have I known it as a bad thing for martial nobles to be combat effective, especially not in my time as one, or I'd have comments on my account about it I'm sure.

Although I'm not a HL, I can reinforce what Xamminy said, which was correct.  Nobles that do spar are an exception to the rule.  They're rare, and seen as an oddity amongst the nobility - even amongst the Tors and their northern counterpart (whose name fails to come to my fingers).  

The trend of sparring/fighting Nobles started when some players used a couple Noble PCs (who were supposed to be unusual) as their role model and imitated that behavior.

Yes, most or all nobles ideally would've received some self-defense instructions in their youths as a part of protective measure.  However, a majority of them would not pursue an actual, life-long martial combat study.

Remember - PC Nobles represent just a fraction of the actual number of nobility in-game.  So what you've seen of PC nobles in the past isn't necessarily an accurate representation of what nobles are/should be like.
Hope this helps a little.
-Ashyom

Quote from: "ashyom"Although I'm not a HL, I can reinforce what Xamminy said, which was correct.  Nobles that do spar are an exception to the rule.  They're rare, and seen as an oddity amongst the nobility - even amongst the Tors and their northern counterpart (whose name fails to come to my fingers).

House Lyksae

[derailment]There really isn't a true northern equivalent for House Tor. Most people associate House Lyksae with that role, since they're a military house that helps out the militia.  However, remember that just 4 generations or so ago, House Lyksae did not exist. They were (if my fading memory serves) formed after the liberation of Tuluk. Last I checked, Lyksae was also not open to PCs.[/derailment]

Something nobody commented on from mansa's very detailed and generally well-thought-out post:

Nobles with the BACKSTAB skill? No way. Never. I just can't see it. I could imagine virtually ANYTHING, including them all being sorcerors and having vast Jell-o orgies in the sewers of Allanak (OK, so I've got an odd imagination), before I could imagine a noble trained in this skill.

Unfortunately this thread has derailed, but oh well, I'll chime in.

I agree that nobles sparring other nobles would be rare, and nobles sparring commoners almost unheard of.

However, the Tor Academy has facilities for friendly matches between Allanak's upper shelf. -Some- nobles would take a fancy to knowing their shit with a weapon. A tactically minded noble (like a Tor) would know how many ways one can be seperated from their guards, and that their last defense is themself. A military instructor also couldn't teach shit from purely book smarts. An elite guard or soldier would sniff out such a poser in a heartbeat.

The whole thing about poisoning training weapons amuses me. One would think that if being poisoned at any time were such a big concern that every noble would have their Aide (or another servant) test their food and water before ever tasting it. Getting clipped with a poisoned training weapon, that was removed from a locked case, poisoned, returned, and locked back up (nobles could easily afford such things), would be low on the list. The discovery of such a weapon would likely result in the execution of any house staff responsable for letting it happen. At least that's what I'd do. :)

In conclusion, a fairly recent public noble document was modified from the original draft to address the unique qualities of certain Houses, and I believe that should be the case here, too.

CAN I GET AN AMEN?!

Quote from: "Jacques"Nobles with the BACKSTAB skill? No way. Never. I just can't see it. I could imagine virtually ANYTHING, including them all being sorcerors and having vast Jell-o orgies in the sewers of Allanak (OK, so I've got an odd imagination), before I could imagine a noble trained in this skill.

Backstab skill isnt a BACKSTAB. Its a critical hit, whether it be to the eye, chest, throat, back, etc, that is sudden. That being said, that means someone did it with sudden surprise in a first strike. Nobles driven to the point of wanting to personally strike another wouldnt do one as they, at the point of drawing their weapon, wouldnt have the 'surprise' advantage of the sudden thrust. So I agree that nobles shouldnt have backstab.

Quote from: "ashyom"Although I'm not a HL, I can reinforce what Xamminy said, which was correct.  

Gotta say that is wrong. Maybe for some nobles it's right but not all. Again, unless House documents are wiped and changed, I know of atleast one Noble House that has it in their docs that they train and are expected to train where a fop in that House would be looked down upon. If this is considered not right/obsolete, those documents need to be changed.

QuoteGotta say that is wrong. Maybe for some nobles it's right but not all. Again, unless House documents are wiped and changed, I know of atleast one Noble House that has it in their docs that they train and are expected to train where a fop in that House would be looked down upon. If this is considered not right/obsolete, those documents need to be changed.

I second this and have found the document in question that Xamminy
is referencing.  Written by Xamminy this year, in fact.  I believe it is
an unfair generalization of the noble houses and contradicts the themes
of at least two houses in Allanak alone.  I would agree that this doc
should be examined again and possibly revised, if possible, or House
Tor and Oash both redesigned so that neither of them have any form
of personal merit attached to their doings, being entirely reliant on
people around them.  This would better match the documentation that
has been more recently written, as it contradicts years of gameplay.

I don't mean to offend anyone, particularly not Xamminy, but there
needs to be consistency from one side of the equation or the other.

I would envision three sets of skills that a Noble class would get.  Below is an outline to give an idea, not a full fleshing out.  I think every Noble subclass (ie House) should get one special skill/ability at least, but I am braindead atm, and can't think of any more.

Noble Class-
Skills in the noble class are like normal skills, ie you start at a low skill level, and have to work up to a decent one.  Nobles would never branch.

Psionic-
Contact
Barrier

Combat-
Shield Use
Two Handed
Dual Wield

Languages
Sirihish
R/W Sirihish

Crafting-
Analyze
Cooking

Ride-can be added normally

Subclass Skills-
These would be determined by one's House.  With the except of languages, they would ALL start at a moderate level dependent on which skill it is, and can only be increased slightly to the max (ie you might start with a skill lev of 30 instead of 5, but can only increase to 35 instead of 70).  I've listed the Southern Houses, because I am not familiar enough with the northern ones.  All subguilds would flag with appropriate clan flags, nocrim, etc.  In addition, the hidden skills of Defense/Offense should be based on Subguild, both starting level and max.  Tor might have a moderate level, Fale might have a low one, etc, along the philosophy of the rest of the subguild skills.

Tor-
Slashing weapons
Kick
Tactics—This would increase the combat advantage increased numbers on one target has.
Bandage
Charge
Tor Nobility Combat Form—Develop a combat form per the code from 2? Years ago and give to all Tor Nobility, for slashing weapons.  Mostly for show.

Fale-
Floristry
Cooking
Hearty-Increased resistance to alchohol, spice and perhaps poisons.
Sleight of Hand
Peek—To determine how fashionable one truly is! (ie see the full wear message)
Swindler's Luck—Favorable odds at all coded games.  Darts, spice run, etc.
Instrument making

Borsail-
Whips-Isn't there an advanced weapon skill for whips?
Subdue-slaves
Flee-Mul slaves
Value
Mirukkim
R/W Mirukkim
Hunt-If there is a city version
Sap-Pesky slaves

Oash-
Cavilish
R/W Cavilish
Bendune
Value
Haggle
Pilot?
Brewing—If making beverages ever made it into this skill
Search


In addition, at the end of creation, the individual gets to pick ONE of the following skills (except for languages, one language set) for their character.  It would start at a low level (except for languages) of skill, with a normal guild's max skill level.

Locate
Poisoning
Scan-City version
Sneak-city version
Hide-city version
Listen
Trap
Slashing Weapons
Bludgeoning Weapons
Chopping Weapons
Piercing Weapons
Parry
Cavilish/R/W Cavilish
Bendune/ R/W Bendune
Allundean/ R/WAllundean
Mirrukim/ R/W Mirrikum

The only House where it would be appropriate for a noble to spar -might- be Tor.  Even then, a Tor is trained to be a commander, not a combatant - military history and strategy would be far more important than bladework.  

Most nobles are dilettantes, tending to focus on an area of knowledge or expertise as a hobby.  A noble might be interested in bladework, but it would be viewed along the same lines as Lord Clarion's passion for collecting rare mosses or Lady Hypatia's sets of trained twin bodyslaves.  A noble who knows how to use a sword gains no dignity or prestige from it.

It would be demeaning and embarassing for a noble to cross swords with a commoner, and it might end up in the commoner being arrested and/or executed for daring to lift a blade against noble blood.

There you have it.

If you have found documentation that conflicts with Sanveans statements above (or doesn't clearly enough reflect them), please e-mail me privately.

Thanks,
 X

All I can say is...wow. That is completely different from the attitude of Tor when I had my noble in the early 2000's. I know it was never acceptable to 'spar' a commoner and our imm told us to only spar with other nobles then but ...wow.

I guess I have to totally readjust my thinking on all nobles. Granted though, the PC population of the world is always referred to as the noticed ones or exceptions to the rule so I guess some could still use that for an IC reason to spar and know weapons.

QuoteThe only House where it would be appropriate for a noble to spar -might- be Tor. Even then, a Tor is trained to be a commander, not a combatant - military history and strategy would be far more important than bladework.

Ok, I could be reading into this too much, but it sounds like sparring in
the Tor pcs may have gotten out of control at one point?  I mean, while
I do believe they should have pretty good potential to fight, I wouldn't
expect them to spar as much as, say, commoners.  Though I will admit
that the first batch of Tor pcs sparred more than my bodyguard ranger
who used to hang out with them, and they were easily able to wipe
the floor with her.  In the matter of tactics, wouldn't a tactician need to
have some sort of practical combat training to know firsthand what is
and is not possible?

QuoteMost nobles are dilettantes, tending to focus on an area of knowledge or expertise as a hobby. A noble might be interested in bladework, but it would be viewed along the same lines as Lord Clarion's passion for collecting rare mosses or Lady Hypatia's sets of trained twin bodyslaves. A noble who knows how to use a sword gains no dignity or prestige from it.

Even back when I played a Fale, I tried to make her more than just a
barfly.  She was wacky and had some bizarre ideas that she would try
to implement, but never just a dilettante.  I hope the idea of hobbies
and expertise is never restricted, but I guess this does beg the
question: Is it inconceivable for a noble to just be good at something?

QuoteIt would be demeaning and embarassing for a noble to cross swords with a commoner, and it might end up in the commoner being arrested and/or executed for daring to lift a blade against noble blood.

I absolutely agree with this, and I think such a rule can restrict a noble
pc from sparring too terribly much, unless there was a large number of
noble pcs in the same house who were sparaholics.   That said, I still
think of Allanak nobles in particular as being much like the Atreides
nobles in their training, though with Fale nobles replacing the nastier
expertise with culture and esoteric knowledge.

Quote from: "Intrepid"
That said, I still think of Allanak nobles in particular as being much like the Atreides nobles in their training, though with Fale nobles replacing the nastier expertise with culture and esoteric knowledge.

Nobles in the Dune books are basically nothing like the nobles in Zalanthas.  Nobles of the Houses in Dune were some of the best warriors, whereas, according to what i'm hearing now, Zalanthas nobles are sissies that any commoner who's been through a year in the Byn could murder in a heartbeat if they bypassed the guard's defenses.

Actually, I was more referring to the wide variety of education from
various personal tutors.  I wasn't referring to having nobles be the
best asskickers in the game.

If, however, all the nobles can be classified as a group of ignorant,
uneducated sissies who couldn't walk to the inn by themselves without
dying of thirst and starvation, why take them seriously?  Why even
play a noble when you can play a templar, have an actual purpose,
wield power that isn't implied, and seem to act solely as spacetakers,
moneyspenders and faceless employers that could be just as well
served as npcs rather than pcs?

I could be wrong about this, but it seems as if many of the higher
karma or special app options are being demonized more and more
from the general society.  Hiring elves is taboo by just about everyone,
hiring magickers is taboo by just about everyone, sorcs are illegal,
mantis/gith/halflings would get shot on the spot, psis are illegal, muls
will be auto-enslaved and now nobles all resemble Fales regardless of
which house they originate from.  It seems almost as if there is a
punishment for picking an option with more power and/or politics to
it, unless you are a templar of some sort; having not played one in
several years, I could be wrong about that.  Still, while I wouldn't
expect free handouts, it just seems as if everything needs to be
illegal or breaking social ordinance in some way to actually accomplish
anything or be something other than just a puppet unless you are a
ranger, merchant or warrior with a human race tag.

Am I far off base here?

As with many other things, many people have insisted on running the exception rather the norm in these roles, and having to rein nobles in from sparring has been an ongoing problem.  Part of the source of the problem are the advantages of the role: you usually have a place that is tempting for sparring in the form of an estate, and you have the money to hire people to spar with you.  

The same thing happens with noble magick users, which is why we don't accept them; usually the person ends up sitting in a room spam-practicing spells (yes, I know there are always exceptions; this does not mean this has not been a problem).

Part of the confusion in this discussion is that we have different ideas of nobles in our heads, taken from a variety of science fiction and fantasy books ranging from George Martin to Dune and so forth.

So - why does Allanak have nobles?  (I'm speaking specifically about Allanak, but most of what I will say applies to Tuluk as well)

The nobles wield considerable political and economic power, which has been built up over the course of centuries.  In part, they were created by Tektolnes in order to divert attention away from the templarate, and to give the commoners people to hate or love. A noble born into one of the Houses knows s/he has a life of luxury and privilege ahead of them, and knows deep down in their hearts that they deserve this life because they are special, and have noble blood.  They do not feel any obligation to support the House, which is run and maintained by the Senior Nobles.  

When I say dilettante, I'm not implying that they cannot be good at something.  I'm implying that they don't -need- to be good at it, and a noble may have difficulty achieving goals that involve their own suffering or dedication, due to the attitude above.  A noble whose hobby is the sword may in fact become quite good at it over time.  But it's still going to be considered embarassing and shameful for her/him to cross blades with a commoner.  And even more embarassing should it be implied that s/he depends for their livelihood on that talent.

Much of a noble house's power rests in built-up reserves and their good name.  Junior nobles will be discouraged from risky ventures that might harm the House, and generally things that might increase a House's wealth or power are considered carefully and deliberated over by the senior nobles. Negotiations with Red-Robed or Black-Robed templars are complex and multi-layered; often noble houses will look for and make alliances with up and coming Blues in order to have a potential Red-Robed ally years down the road.

Could the nobles challenge the templarate?  No.  But they could make the life of a specific templar or group of templars more difficult, and the templarate knows this and treats them accordingly.  The templarate is also willing to leave much of the governing of the city nominally in noble hands, which leads to the Senate, where bills may be affected by the opinion of the templarate, but are in name at least approved by the noble representatives - who know better than to approve something that templarate dislikes and thus risk their cushy existence.

A noble player should remember that they are a small cog in a large establishment; a noble family is not a nuclear one, with Mom, Dad, and Junior.  Instead it's a conglomeration of cousins and siblings, aunts, uncles, half-brothers and sisters, most of whom are concerned with their status in the House and willing to struggle to maintain it.  Throw bastard children, who usually end up in positions of authority among the servants, such as major domo, butler, or head housekeeper, into the mix and you have a tangled web of alliances.

I hope that helps explain the staff's conception of the nobility.  My apologies for rambling at such lengths.

Dont apologize, Sanvean, that post was rather good at explaining things and clearer. Its appreciated to have someone spell things out a bit more.

Though I was able 'to' spar when I had my Tor, I think my IC brother and I only got to a few times. I cant see anyone realistically sparring all the time unless of some quirk in their bg that was approved. Your post actually cleared up the 'never ever would' to a more realistic, might but physical pursuits probably wouldnt be the main focus of their life. I was with Intrepid there, thinking it sounded more like a npc role for a moment.

Thank you, Sanvean.  I found this very enlightening, and now I think I
am seeing what everyone has been saying about nobles.  It does seem
that the houses in Allanak are far more similar than I previously
believed, though in my defense, my primary source of information was
a doc giving a brief overview of the various houses in combination with
various ic interactions with pc nobles (who will of course expound on
the vast differences between their house and the others, generally in
terms of their own superiority).

I am curious as to what are encouraged goals for junior house members
though.  Alliances, amassing of power and wealth, building of personal
armies, risky ventures and the like are either frowned upon or are
pursued by the house as a whole, if I read correctly.

Quote from: "Sanvean"I hope that helps explain the staff's conception of the nobility.  My apologies for rambling at such lengths.

Yeah like the other one said, no need to apoligize... good explanation.

Quote from: "Intrepid"I am curious as to what are encouraged goals for junior house members
though.  Alliances, amassing of power and wealth, building of personal
armies, risky ventures and the like are either frowned upon or are
pursued by the house as a whole, if I read correctly.

If I'm reading San's post right that's not quite what she meant. Nobles are dissuaded from doing things that will harm the House or will help the House (unless they have the say so from above). Helping and harming themselves though is another story ;) As long as it doesn't have too much of an impact on the House, they're free to go.

Sanvean's much smarter than me, but I still have to disagree with her version of a zalanthan noble in general.

I would imagine that a person born into privilege is just as likely to desire even more power and wealth than he is to take what he has and laze around for the rest of his life. Me? I'd sit on my ass and play Armageddon. George Bush? He ran for president. If ambition depends at all on upbringing, why -wouldn't- the houses raise wee nobles with the desire to have more?

And with that ambition, there's always more than one way to get something, especially in a dark fantasy world such as this, where the answer more often than not leads to violence in some form or another. Some nobles may desire a position in the senate when they grow older. Some may want connections throughout the entire underworld of their particular city. Among others, that leaves the ones that desire conquest or even glory.

Because let's not kid ourselves, here. The face of zalanthas is most heavily impacted by WAR. If Allanak invades again, you bet there's something to be gained by being just behind the lines, directing your little squads and retinue. Titles like Lord Governor come to mind. Benefits from templars, or a bit of glory taken away from those lowly and unnecessary Tor come to mind. War is always, always inevitable, and there's always, always something to be gained from it, even on a personal level.

Sparring is also just another form of teaching. I don't understand why we see something wrong with a noble preparing himself for the day when he may have to lift a hand by having his personal bodyguard show him the right moves. If he depends on this man every day anyway, where's the problem?

All of that said, I'll maintain that we only need a subguild for nobles. If a new noble needs the warrior, assassin, or even ranger (he's studied geography, survival, and regional plants, ready to travel to wherever his business takes him) classes instead of more typical selections, and he manages to fully justify it, then why the hell not?

Perhaps the alternative to universally narrowing the scope of a noble's role as a character is asking trusted players to play the 'rare exception', and insist that everyone else get used to the norm first.

Aight. That was an awesome post. But I do disagree...here's my 2.

* Nobles have children.

* Nobles like all organisms want their children to be successful, to have a an edge over the competition. Whether the competition be the kids in another house, their brother/cousin/uncles children etc.

* Nobles have the best (the only) access to education, training, knowledge, history etc.

The two of those statements being true, how could a noble with child not arm his or her offspring with every advantage possible. One of those being physical training and the art of war.

I just can't see a Tor or Borsail noble with a new baby *not* engineering the child's upbringing to insure that he/she is the pinnacle of what a human on zalanthas can be. A veritable Zalanthan renaissance man.

That said, it is completely human for individuals to want to dominate one another physically. Jousting, wrestling, any sports (some base, some refined) etc. This is basic human instinct, some wil gravitate toward intrigue and other to sport. Zalanthan nobles are supposed to be devoid of desire for sport. I find this dull.

I mean are we to believe Nobles are completely above any human instincts for physical competition? Even as sport? Does no noble ever have a desire to hunt? Perhaps with a tremendous escort...but nonetheless.

Now honestly? I don't think nobles not sparing or casting is about anything IC. I think it's about keeping nobles out of their estates and interacting with other nobles to keep plots rolling. Which is important. The game would lick nutz if nobles spent days on end sparring at their estates.

But if thats the case....twink their stats. Nobles *should* be better at everything. Make their skills reflect such...They won't need to spar.

*edit spelling...

Regarding whether "nobility" (or, say, people whose parents have infinite resources and desire to educate them well...) should have any more or less skills than any other man or woman, I have two words:

Paris Hilton.

Draw your own conclusions and/or extrapolations.

I can see nobles getting almost every skill on thier skill list with low skill caps (including genteel crafts, but not heavy labour crafts like lumberjacking).  As everyone knows, you don't have to use a skill just because you have it.  A wide range of low-cap skills would enable a typical dilletente to dabble in many things, without ever gaining mastery.  You can learn a little about a lot of things just from reading about it.


On the other hand, I like the current system because you never know just what a particular noble might be capable of.  If there was a noble guild, eventually many people would know exactly what skills the average noble has.  For the same reason, I think it is very poor to say on the boards that most nobles are guild X, that should probably be edited out.


AC

Quote from: "jmordetsky"

But if thats the case....twink their stats. Nobles *should* be better at everything. Make their skills reflect such...They won't need to spar.

*edit spelling...

I'll have to agree with jmordetsky on that point. This Noble has been around for a while and usually is trained in war tactics and such.. Why not improve the Noble's skills upon acception of the application? Nothing to extreme, but certainly not something that lowly-est of newbie warriors could spank down.

QuoteI don't think nobles not sparing or casting is about anything IC.

I agree. The IC reasons given just don't make much realistic sense IMO. In fact the reasoning makes it more unbelievable.

What I just don't see from the explanation is the transition from junior noble to senior noble.  It seems to be that you encourage lazy behavior in the junior nobles, but then the senior nobles have to actually manage the House, so they would have needed a background that would get them there....

How does that work?  Because while most/any PCs may not become senior nobles, that should not be predetermined.  So where in all this is the mechanism to train the senior nobles?  Because from the decription of the junior ones, you are not going to have people who when they are older are able to run the House.

Quote from: "Linedel"Regarding whether "nobility" (or, say, people whose parents have infinite resources and desire to educate them well...) should have any more or less skills than any other man or woman, I have two words:

Paris Hilton.

Draw your own conclusions and/or extrapolations.

All I can say is...ROFLMAO

First off, America is NOT Zalanthas. Second, she doesnt have to worry about assassination attempt from another House every day she steps out the door nor the chance of Tuluk/Nak attacking daily.

So on, so forth....and ROFLMAO

I'd also love to see them have their own guild if for no other reason that none of the other guilds seem to suit them well.

Warrior:  I used to think that nobles should have warrior guilds (after all historically, most nobility was educated in such arts) but then it occurred to me that there is a big difference between templars and nobility.  So although I could see templars (maybe even Tor) having knowledge of combat, other nobles I just don't see having the background or need for it.

Rouge:  This class is mostly based on the idea one can "fit in" with the landscape.  How any pampered person who usually will demand a room's attention could "fit in" I'm not seeing it.

Merchant:  This one is tricky.  Although I realize it's a natural choice for many nobles, a noble is not a merchant.  I just don't see nobles watching trends/fads, carrying to know enough about supply and demand laws, or taking the time to learn this supposedly well-kept secretive language to justify picking merchant as a guild. Besides that, it seems hypocritical to give people who have TONS of money to flaunt (every PC merchant knows it is the nobility who can afford top price) a skill of haggle where as they try to cheapen prices.

Ranger:  Well, "roughing it" by venturing out of the city gates in an estate like wagon with only twelve or so guards shouldn't bring about knowledge of how to live off the land.


Personally (so we don't have to invent new skills) I'd much rather see nobles given upped skills on a few subclass type things.  Languages, Bard skills, archery, maybe some crafting skills... anything that would reflect an idea that nobility has the time and resources to peruse more "hobby" type knowledge.  To this extent I agree that any skills given to nobility be fairly high.  These are the people who would have time and resources (tutors, best equipment, etc).

Quote from: "Linedel"Regarding whether "nobility" (or, say, people whose parents have infinite resources and desire to educate them well...) should have any more or less skills than any other man or woman, I have two words:

Paris Hilton.

Draw your own conclusions and/or extrapolations.

Truth. No arguement there, for each paris hilton, I bet I can give you 3 yale/harvard grads that are ceo of major corporations.

Sure.. Ms. Hilton is extreme, but for every Yale CEO, there are three completely normal ones, with no exceptional skills or accomplishments whatsoever.

Actually, there was a documentry a few years ago.. one of those children of um.. means? wealth? whatever you want to call it, did on a dozen others.. I can't remember the name of it, or the guy that did it, but it was interesting.  Talk about a bunch of pathetic losers...

I've changed my mind since I posted that though.. I was suggesting that no change is necessary, as someone is a product of random chance and environment just as much as forced "education" that they may or may not realize is actually crucial to their future...

My current opinion is - sure, make a noble class.  Give it:

sirihish.  (fluency, NOT literacy)

Everything else should be set by an immortal at character creation, based on a proposed list that matches a detailed background that the character writes up.  Advanced/long skill lists would require a) a pretty damn good justification in the history, and b) karma or some other reason why they should be trusted.  No need to do anything complicated.  (sirihish read/write would be determined by background.)

Other than if something targeted were done, I see no reason to change anything.  Class is simply what your character might someday be good at... if people are powergaming their noble, the solution is not to add more content, but rather to instruct the offending players how to roleplay...  (or make the selection criteria stricter.)

Perhaps nobles do have large lists of hobbies, even materials to persue their interests, teachers, hunters to gather odd specimens... what I don't see a noble having is the willpower to finish anything themselves.

So you've got Lord Oash with his extensive hobby list, and a whole storeroom/closet/den full of the interest of the week.  Perhaps half a crate of brewables, some half carved blocks of wood, a few precious and semi precious stones from when he decided he simply had to give jewelrymaking a try, clothworking, and a few dozen half started manuscripts.  The suit of perfectly crafted armor and splendid swords collecting dust in the corner from when he thought it'd be smashing to distinguish himself militarily.  And of course, the spice collection and rare alcohols stashed amongst that stuff. These people live a life of luxury that commonfolk couldn't even begin to imagine. Why would they ever bother finishing something? It's certainly not to sell it.


I know of one noble that wrote a book, another that did poetry. And this was before crafting. Sparring used to bring down the wrath of senior members of the house, and rightfully so, except under specific circumstances, because it's SO simple for your local noble to hire the best fighter in the game and get a few easily earned skillpoints, then go and start picking fights like they're big and tough. MAYBE the teach command is usable in a situation where Lord Tor wants to learn the art of the gypsy slashing weaponry from an expert, but sparring? Right out.


A lot of a noble's 'skills' aren't codable. Some that I think are necessary are listen, maybe city sneak depending on background, flee/retreat, possibly scan, and a decent defense score with a minimal skill in a chosen weapon (probably daggers since they're small). Good contact, reasonable barrier. One crafting skill, maybe even brought up to the point where the person can reasonably carve/whittle/work stone without too many failures, but not to the level of masterwork, and let them roleplay the other skills they want to pretend to be interested in. And of course, RW Sirihish, perhaps one other language, depending on background, but with one or two exceptions, there aren't any written forms of other languages that a noble would reasonably know.

I've played one blood noble and one that married in, back when you could do such a thing. In both cases, anytime I used combat, I shouldn't have been using it. It was ridiculous, looking back. In fact, with exception of the perception skills, any time I used a skill I should have gotten spanked, and sometimes I did.  

Bluntly, a lot of this game you CAN play without skills. It's always all about perception. Why should it be any different for a social class that's all about perception?


--proxie

Let me first put this up front - I've not gone through all the posts on the subject.

My own belief is that nobles should have no skills other than:

contact
barrier
ride
pilot
sirihish
RW Sirihish

maybe analyze.

That's it.

Certain nobles may have other skills based on their backgrounds (ie, northern nobles might be rangers, while some Tors may be warriors) but that can be class dependant.

The vast majority of nobles, to me, should have no skills other than RP ones.  When I played a noble with 0 skills it was one of my best roles ever - it forced me into the mindset of a noble and kept me there without ever wandering to do something coded.  

Nobles grow up in luxury, they grow up in decadence, they grow up in a position of power and leisure.  There is no place for coded skills - even crafting skills.  An occassional noble might take up a particular craft but the reality is - such mundane activities are far beneath them.  Instead, they would design or dream up their product and have slaves or skilled artisans make the item.

I think that there should be various sub-classes of nobles.
Looking at history, you've got yourself all kinds of kings.
you've got warrior kings, scholar kings, poetic kings, gay kings that want their significant others to be military strategists (that is until they SO is thrown out the window by an overbearing father)

I think you should definately plan for a warrior type noble, a merchant/economic leader type noble, a scholarly wisdom type noble, and some sort of builder/craft type noble.

I think if a noble skillset were to pop up, it was have to necessarily consist of skills that are 100% exclusive to nobles.   I have no clue what this would include, as the only noble I've ever played was a bastard, a role which I think is appropriate to use one of the regular classes.