Armageddon General Discussion Board

If you want to discuss them, here's the place.  We took 2-3 weeks of mulling things over from the immortal side, including one all-staff meeting and one HL+ meeting, which I mention only in case people are thinking these decisions were made without forethought, heh.  The intent is to help the game run more smoothly, while increasing the emphasis on roleplay.  I encourage you, if you're interested in contributing to the game, to do so by:

a) filing bugs/typos/ideas
b) working on projects from the current projects blog
c) sending in original fiction, poetry, or artwork
d) joining one of the groups, such as the Publicity, Zalanthan Fashion, or APM ones
e) maintaining our high standard of roleplay and leading by example

I am glad for these changes and do not feel bad about saying, Its about time. I think I am going
to enjoy this master crafter feature now..I am excited. Kudos and keep it up.

I think that the new rules being instituted are good ones, especially since things have gotten so bad, as you say.

My only problem with the "no custom orders through merchants" clause is that a number of times, I have tried to order items this way that very likely already exist in that particular company's catalogue.  I have no way of knowing if what I am looking for has been coded into that company's arsenal, and when I talk to the merchants about it, they seem to have no idea either.  

For example, say I want to order a sword from Salarr that has a leather-wrapped wooden hilt with a blade of salt-worm tooth, my natural instict would be to write up a submission and do a custom order.  However, they may already stock this type of item, but I have now way of knowing it, and if the merchant doesn't either, I'm screwed.

I am well aware that the emphasis of the game is not on item acquisition, but nonetheless this is somewhat frustrating when it arises.  Would it be resonable to publish a list of orderable items for each merchant house so that we can at least know whether or not what we are looking for exists currently?

Quote from: "Tamarin"For example, say I want to order a sword from Salarr that has a leather-wrapped wooden hilt with a blade of salt-worm tooth, my natural instict would be to write up a submission and do a custom order.  However, they may already stock this type of item, but I have now way of knowing it, and if the merchant doesn't either, I'm screwed.

Perhaps the merchant clans could make available to their merchants a basic list of "nonstandard" items that are able to be ordered? This would be a lot of work initially, but if it started small and was added to regularly, it might be a good resource for starting merchant PCs. Otherwise, the PC contacts the merchant PC, the merchant PC bothers his/her staff, the staff responds, the merchant finds the PC... repeat ad nauseum. This is fine, but adds extra work for the PC merchant and staff of the merchant house.

Or perhaps the merchants who take these roles either come with some amount of experience, or actually roleplay a little bit within the clan to determine specifically what they can and cannot promise?

I'd say, in terms of the merchant houses, that because these are OOC changes the IC function of the merchant houses has always been like this.  What I mean is that there shouldn't be IC ramifications or shock that merchants aren't taking special orders.  Don't be offended if there isn't something you're looking for, that's life.  "It's a harsh world."  :wink:

Could you clarify #2?  I understand that you mean that if there is no such thing as a quadruple-headed flail in the database, I can't order one.  What I'm not clear on is if "You can request something and if it is already in the database, it may be possible to get it." means that if that quadruple-headed flail -does- already exist, I can order one.  Or would that be covered in the "No special orders" category?

Also, does that affect items that specific Houses order from the merchants?  For example, ordering livery for Borsail from Kadius.

Quote from: "JollyGreenGiant"Could you clarify #2?  I understand that you mean that if there is no such thing as a quadruple-headed flail in the database, I can't order one.  What I'm not clear on is if "You can request something and if it is already in the database, it may be possible to get it." means that if that quadruple-headed flail -does- already exist, I can order one.  Or would that be covered in the "No special orders" category?

Also, does that affect items that specific Houses order from the merchants?  For example, ordering livery for Borsail from Kadius.

Shit that has already been made or very similar to what you wish to order, you can get.
Noble house Gear, if ordered by a Superior you can get because it has been crafted before
and I am sure they would keep stock in had seeing as how a large majority of their
sales comes from equipping the  Military and Noble House Guards. Coo?

Quote from: "Section 1"
When submitting items/NPCs/echos/descriptions, we ask that you only submit things for the projects listed in our Current Projects blog, located at: http://www.zalanthas.org/blogs/current/ This includes crafting submissions, with the sole exception of items covered in number 3 below. Be aware that it may take up to a month for the submissions to be built. This page will be swapped in for the other projects page.

So if I have a great idea for a new pair of shoes, or an echo for the Kuraci courtyard in Allanak, or whatever...I can't send it in?
I can understand this when objects are concerned, but for extra descriptions, echoes and NPCs, I truly do not see the reasoning.
Sure, nobody needs five more NPC guards to stand in Point X, but is another child in the Labyrinth or a non-merchant basketweaver in the Warrens really such a big threat to Ginka's resources?

Quote from: "Section 2"
2) No more special orders of any type through merchants. You can request something and if it is already in the database, it may be possible to get it. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months. If you have a special order currently placed with a merchant, it will be delivered, but no new orders can be placed.

I'm going to be disgustingly blunt here - I don't think this is a good idea.
I think it will be fine if custom orders will be made harder to get by raising the wait and the IC costs (making it cost four times as much will reduce the amount significantly).  Otherwise, people will see people in objects they haven't seen before and will immediately go "A-ha, this man is involved in a secret plot!".
If these cool 'quest items' are made to be seen, I think this ultimately will do more bad than it does good.  I admit that there are too many custom items out there, but removing them completely is almost as damaging to the consistency as saying that all magickers are bad except Vivaduans because people like water, in my humble opinion.

Quote from: "Section 3"
3) Master crafters can, if their skill is sufficiently high, create one special item for that skill. You may submit only one TOTAL of these special items per month. They should be sent to mud@armageddon.org; please confirm that your skill is sufficiently high in that area before submitting the item, which must include a crafting recipe for the item (which can be restricted by clan). Be aware that it may take up to a month for the crafting array to be implemented.

I don't really have a problem with this, as long as this doesn't mean that new generic cooking recipes will be restricted in this manner.

Quote from: "Section 4"
4) The staff will be putting together and writing guidelines for submissions, which will be published when they're done. Basically, player submitted items will be held to the same standards that staff written items have been.

Hallelujah.

Quote from: "Section 6"
6) You may request a total of two description changes for a character over the course of her or his lifetime. This includes but is not limited to requests for scars, tattoos, haircuts, etc. We are currently looking at better ways to allow players to administer their own scars. In the occasion where a description change is merited or imposed through the intervention of a plotline, these will not count against the total. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months.

In its core, this idea is also not bad...however, restricting this to a PC's lifetime means that two year PC that started at age 13 is going to have a pretty awkward time.
Why not limit this to once per three RL months, instead?


Note: I skipped Section 5 because I assume it will be clarified in the Ask The Staff post.

And, in conclusion...I can't say that reading this post made me particularly happy.  Obviously this doesn't mean the constraints (be them staff time or system resources or anything else) should be ignored because of me, but I still wanted to voice my view of this.

Emphasis on roleplay.  Emphasis on roleplay.

First off...I haven't submitted for items in a very long time.  I haven't asked for custom orders, either.  I'd like to know how those rules are going to vastly improve role-play just because now, people can only craft what's in game and order what's in game.  People will -still- order items.  People will -still- craft items.

Now, the only problem is that when my character -does- come up with some new, -revolutionary- idea, -through- role-play...it won't be able to be implemented.  Hooray for -limited- acquisition of items, because...that's going to...increase...role-play?


Edited to add:  Yes, I realize that a lot of workload goes into working with certain player-made clans.  And that sometimes, they ask for things beneficial, that just don't work out.  In my opinion, a simple -no- is good enough, rather than closing down all staff support for players.  My prediction (as a psychic.  One that has no powers whatsoever and could very likely be wrong) is that this is...not going to promote role-play as much as it's hoped to.  We're going to see an even division of the people who used to enjoy playing in player-driven clans...the ones who stick with it, or go to a clan with coded support, and people who, with no benefit, go to the other side and become indies.  Indies that do not join up with many people, hunt/forage a lot, whatever.  In my experience, saying 'We aren't going to help you anymore' doesn't really promote sticking together, as most people believe.

Sorry, I'm completely dumbfounded on how this is supposed to work.  -Someone- who gets it, explain it to me please :P

Hmm, how is 'Master' crafter defined? Are you only counted as a master crafter if you're working for one of the houses? You have a general idea of how good you are by what you can make and how often you fail, but how do you class people as masters? And if we're a crafter and think our skill is good enough to qualify and submit our one item, will we be told a simple yes/no if our skill is high enough or face the wrath of an immy for being too crappy for it heh.

A staff member sends:
"You want to make what? With -your- skill?"

Someone doubles over laughing, rolling around on the ground.

Quote from: "Armaddict"Emphasis on roleplay.  Emphasis on roleplay.

First off...I haven't submitted for items in a very long time.  I haven't asked for custom orders, either.  I'd like to know how those rules are going to vastly improve role-play just because now, people can only craft what's in game and order what's in game.  People will -still- order items.  People will -still- craft items.

Now, the only problem is that when my character -does- come up with some new, -revolutionary- idea, -through- role-play...it won't be able to be implemented.  Hooray for -limited- acquisition of items, because...that's going to...increase...role-play?

Sorry, I'm completely dumbfounded on how this is supposed to work.  -Someone- who gets it, explain it to me please :P

*highfives armaddict* Score one for the bad guys!

I think what is intended is that people are spending too much time and too much of the Staff's time on writing up items and things like that instead of worrying about roleplaying.

*shrugs*

So now all that time they spent writing up new submissions and emailing staff will be spent crafting things already in game.  Sure, it may save the staff time, but it lowers the variety within the game.

And they'll -still- spend more of their time in game crafting.  They'll just be able to make the same items over and over and flood shops with them, and/or start hassling pc's to buy whatever the best thing they can make is.  I'm -still- dumbfounded as to how this will increase role-play.

Quote from: "JollyGreenGiant"Could you clarify #2?  I understand that you mean that if there is no such thing as a quadruple-headed flail in the database, I can't order one.  What I'm not clear on is if "You can request something and if it is already in the database, it may be possible to get it." means that if that quadruple-headed flail -does- already exist, I can order one.  Or would that be covered in the "No special orders" category?

Also, does that affect items that specific Houses order from the merchants?  For example, ordering livery for Borsail from Kadius.

Basically, if the item already exists in our database, you can (possibly) have it.  If it does not, you cannot.  So, in your example, if the flail had already been made OOC'ly in the database up to this point, you could have it.  If it has not been, and someone has to create, modify, update, save the new item, you cannot have it.

That help clear it up?

If you and your merchant don't know, ask.  If you want this flail ordered from Salarr, convince a Salarri merchant to email his clan Immortal and ask if something like it exists.  If it does, great.  If it doesn't, they might suggest alternatives (at the discretion of the Immortal involved - I'm not volunteering anyone for anything).

Quote from: "Armaddict"

 I'm -still- dumbfounded as to how this will increase role-play.

From the Immortal side of things, it will mean that many staff members now have more time to run plots/quests and play npc's and that sort of thing, instead of spending their time making objects.

Quote from: "jhunter"I think what is intended is that people are spending too much time and too much of the Staff's time on writing up items and things like that instead of worrying about roleplaying.

*****************

I think players tend to want to "reinvent the wheel" every time they come up with something.  Just sit back and order because my guess is that in those YEARS the game has been operating an item very similar to what you want has already been made.    

As for that "what about when my character has an idea?" argument, well things just don't happen that way.  The society in game isn't one to culture new thoughts... more like, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

Well, that's good and all.  It should be fun.  But we've got a big staff.  We've got multiple immortals for each clan, even, in most cases.

When I used to build for a mud, it took me ten minutes to build a good, detailed object.  Granted, I didn't have to do any 'research' on it to insure that it compared well with the other weapons in game, etc, but I -know- that you can pick and choose projects, set aside a small amount of time to work on it, then go on with animating your npc's or organizing your plots.  Everyone in game already -knows- that a special order is going to take fucking ages...and with months now being -two- weeks instead of one, I see more time for it to be worked on and still be completed within that year and a half that it sometimes took.

I know I'm scoring 'I'm bad' points, but...this seems to me that there are ulterior motives involved, and not just 'to promote role-play'.

I know of at least two 'revolutionary' things happening in game right now, my 2 'sids.  I guess -that- roleplay was put to a halt.

Quote from: "Armaddict"When I used to build for a mud, it took me ten minutes to build a good, detailed object.

I think ten minutes is a bit brief.  It takes me a few minutes just to work out a suitable sdesc for an object that differentiates it from the other objects in the game (don't forget we have a database of tens of thousands of items).  Descriptions are yet another matter, and finally tweaking weight, wear/affect/state flags (Arm has a lot more of these than any other mud I've worked on), adding extra descriptions for taste, scent, etc.  We also have an approval process for our builders, so each item they create passes under the eyes of at least one HL/OL, then you have to start thinking about how the object will actually get into the world.  If it is a crafting item, then adding the recipe is more, additional work.  Or is it necessarily to modify shopfiles so that shopkeepers have the correct inventories?  What about loading it onto NPCs in the world (which means waiting for Saturday to modify the zones)?  The situation compounds itself as the database grows and it becomes harder and harder to balance items against one another in terms of cost, quality, weight, etc.

Quote from: "Armaddict"Everyone in game already -knows- that a special order is going to take fucking ages...and with months now being -two- weeks instead of one, I see more time for it to be worked on and still be completed within that year and a half that it sometimes took.

I'm not sure I'm able to pluck out the point here, except that you're frustrated by the "fucking ages" it takes to order an item.  Those policies are related to IC realities for the various merchant houses and have nothing to do with the recent policy changes.  In the future, please consider gentler phrasing.  I know I harp on the language a lot, but the signal to noise ratio only decreases when you can't discipline yourself enough to find better words than "fuck", "shit", etc.

Quote from: "Armaddict"I know I'm scoring 'I'm bad' points, but...this seems to me that there are ulterior motives involved, and not just 'to promote role-play'.

This isn't an issue of scoring "bad points."  Sharing your feedback with us on the policy changes is fine (we even want feedback. believe it or not), but you'll have better success in a productive discussion of specific concerns, and by offering constructive suggestions, rather than posting in frustration.  Finally, I'm not sure what "ulterior motives" you're accusing us of pursuing with this policy; we've made it clear that we feel too much time and effort is being spent on filling the database with items.  It's that simple.

As Sanvean noted in her original post on this thread, we've spent a lot of time considering these policy changes, as a staff, and we feel that this is the best thing for the health of the mud, overall.  We have limited resources (as always, #1 of these is time), and so have to budget our use of those resources rationally.  Give the new policies a try, and if you find yourself having specific issues with them, then we can consider those individually.

First suggestion-If a crafting skill description says that "this skill is not fully implemented yet", you should have item submissions for that not fully implemented skill as one of the projects on the webpage, until it is considered fully implemented.

Second suggestion-If a player points out a gap, and volunteers to spend their time to fill that gap, with immortal approval it should supercede the rules presented.  Example: a clan's specific items don't come from materials found where the clan is, so suggesting clan specific craftables made from local materials, and volunteering to come up with said craftables.

Points to clarify-
As a master crafter, I can submit one item per month?  Or one item per skill I am a master at per month?  Or one item total ever per skill I am a master at, not to exceed one item per month?  Does putting together a wagon count?

How about items that probably would not be appropriate with crafting recipes, but I am a master crafter with that skill, and I want to make one of that item, ever, for a specific person, purpose, etc?

In the past, when I saw what I considered a gap, or an opportunity to add something that did not exist, or to flesh out the world in a new and interesting way, I wrote something up and sent it in.  What is the preferred new process, simply email the mud with what we view the gap/opportunity etc to be, and let the immortals see if they agree then prioritise it on their own workload?



Is this a situation that has been brought about by crafting, really?  I remember before crafting went in, people would complain about all the requests that merchants got for custom orders.  I can only imagine the volumes of items submitted has shot up since then.

This seems like a pretty big 'fuck you' to player-oriented goals, and yes, even plots that would make them reach those goals.  Personal plots and group plots, when all they try to do is improve the group.

Basically, what I'm getting out of it, is that the staff wants to spend -less- time on the players so that they have more time to spend on their own projects...so...all these new applicants who just got onto staff said they didn't want to do it anymore, or what?

What I believe they are saying Armaddict, is that they'd rather spent their time running plots for the players rather than making items and things like that which are not needed.

Quote from: "Tamarin"My only problem with the "no custom orders through merchants" clause is that a number of times, I have tried to order items this way that very likely already exist in that particular company's catalogue.  I have no way of knowing if what I am looking for has been coded into that company's arsenal, and when I talk to the merchants about it, they seem to have no idea either.  

For example, say I want to order a sword from Salarr that has a leather-wrapped wooden hilt with a blade of salt-worm tooth, my natural instict would be to write up a submission and do a custom order.  However, they may already stock this type of item, but I have now way of knowing it, and if the merchant doesn't either, I'm screwed.

This is an awsome question, and I do hope that I am not getting overly IC with this. If I am, Imm's please edit this. Custom is a brand new item, Special Order is just an item not readily available.

A while back I played a merchant, and I can't tell you how many people asked me (this is a fictional example), "Was looking for something ornate with a bone blade, and leather grip, good for slashing at things. Do you think you make me something like that?"

Now there are -thousands- of items out there. One of them I am sure, will fit the bill for that. And my Imms -enforced- that on me rather quickly. Don't take a custom unless it is a completely original item.

So I would say, "I am not sure what we have, let me come back to you in a week or so with a few things, we may have something just like that."

Or I would say if I knew of something, "We have this specific kind of blade, it looks like this and has this type of handle, or we have this kind of blade, looks like this and can be used this way."

If I didn't know of anything, I would then ask my clan imm what we had that fit the bill. Or I would add into my weekly order as description of what I was looking for. Said Imm would then put a few things into my available to purchase inventory that fit the description.

This would help me as a merchant player two fold.

1. I would know more items and prices and be able to offer a varity of selections much quicker.
2. Prevent me from having to write up an item. (especially when most likely there is a similar thing in game)

Basically, two steps to having good merchants are IMHO. Excellent Clan Imms that respond quickly and have no problems being informative. And a very organized player playing your merchant.

Nobody is the perfect Merchant when they start, you shouldn't expect them to be able to know every item off the cusp. However, that should not impede another player from getting what you want or need from that merchant, it just may take a bit longer.  There is always an Imm backing that merchant player. So if they don't know, they can ask.  

Now if the Imm can't help, then there is a problem with how the game has inventory sorted and or how Imm's can look for things. My imm didn't seem to have too many issues with it.

Personally, I have no strong opinions either way on the new policies.
They seem reasonable to me, as a "let's test this out" sort of
phase.  I imagine that the embargo, so to speak, on items will ease
up a little, with more specific limitations implemented for the sake
of migrane control.

If less building means the staff gets to animate npcs to interact
with us more and/or breathe more life into the world with uber
snazzy new events, I'm all for it.  I think those activities tend to be
more enjoyable for both staff and player alike, not to mention that
many Arm-enthusiasts become imms in the first place.

QuoteIf less building means the staff gets to animate npcs to interact
with us more and/or breathe more life into the world with uber
snazzy new events, I'm all for it.

Me too.

Quote from: "Armaddict"This seems like a pretty big 'fuck you' to player-oriented goals, and yes, even plots that would make them reach those goals.  Personal plots and group plots, when all they try to do is improve the group.

How do you see it this way?  I'm trying to understand your point, but I don't get it.  How are we ending player-oriented goals and group plots?

Quote from: "Armaddict"
Basically, what I'm getting out of it, is that the staff wants to spend -less- time on the players so that they have more time to spend on their own projects...so...all these new applicants who just got onto staff said they didn't want to do it anymore, or what?

It's unfortunate you see it that way, but you're wrong.  If you read what we said already, we're doing this so that we can do -more- plots and quests and things like that.  How in the world does that equate to less time on the players?

And to be honest, what's so wrong with certain staff wanting to work on their 'own pet' projects?  We're all here to have fun, and their 'pet' projects are what they consider fun (as long as it doesn't harm the world as a whole, yadda yadda).  If we hired staff and just said "Here, you work on this and that's all you get", we wouldn't have much staff.  We don't get paid money, so our "payment" is our satisfaction and our enjoyment, so we're naturally going to work on the projects we enjoy.  Otherwise, what is the point?

I'm just a lowly nobody but here's what I think.

Arm likes to compare itself to a MUSH except that it has a Diku code, which, to a degree, is relatively true.  One area where this falls short is with descriptions and items.  I feel absolutely liberated whenever I play a MUSH knowing full well that I can change my description around at will and conjure up as many items as I see fit (provided that they fit in with the setting of the game and are realistic to have acquired -- you can't just load up a silver signet ring and expect that to be realistic, for example, if you aren't a noble).  That's what roleplaying is all about, right?  I want the liberty of knowing I can create any useless (but hard coded) object to enter into a scene, as well as the liberty to know that I can change my description when my character goes from being pristine and dapper to bruised and muddied.  Or if my character chops all his hair off, I can do that without a lot of hassle, having to wait for someone else to do it for me.  And why should I?  This isn't an offensive statement against the staff, rather, a point about the tremendous limitations of a Diku code.

The code is setup to give non-existant players more support than existing ones.  You can create anything from short desc to main desc to background, height, weight, etc. in the character generation menu.  Once you are in game however, that opportunity comes to a staggering halt and, as a general rule, having adjustments made is next to impossible for some, exceptionally difficult for many.  But imagine if there were an option for EXISTING characters in the main menu, where someone can submit for changes and then just wait for that to get processed along with all the other new characters in the application queu.  Or even create a secondary, lower profile application queu for people to submit these things.  This way the change is instantaneous.  If the adjustment is accepted then the next time you login, voila!  You're all set.  To deter people from nonstop desc changes, select a limitation on the number of times this can be done within a given week, month, or year.  Though thereto again, you see the difference between the weak Diku code versus the stronger, more free-willed MUSH code, which is a shame in a game where roleplay is the main focus -- how can I roleplay if I have to skirt around certain scenes like chopping my hair off, or tattoing my arms, etc. etc.?  I don't even WANT to roleplay scenes which alter my appearance knowing how much of an OOC hassle it can be.  Go play a MUSH and tell the players there that they can no longer have their pregnant character change her description and you will be faced with a mob!  These things are of utmost importance to the players involved, it helps them get into character more.  Again, no offense to anyone but the code and the tyranical restrictions it imposes.

The other issue is that merchants have no clue what their House's inventory is.  They can go to the warehouse and see what is currently loaded, but that's not the entire repetoire (nowhere near!)  Aside from this, they must hassle an immortal and see if the item exists, then get back with the other player (who may have already died -- wasting everyone's time).  Merchants can't do that much, really.  They are powerless as far as the code is concerned.  They sit in taverns, lounge in their estates and sometimes  (rarely) travel in wagons.  They are severely limited and only fun for those with the smarts to play out a plot-driving, leadership role.  Give them some more props, I say!  There are some spells/skills which mirror immortal commands, such as the ability to go unnoticed or watch others from afar.  Why not give family merchants immortal-like commands which allow them to review certain object files, and possibly even load them.  This would relieve the staff of basically doing a merchant's work for them, it would also give them more power and it would give a lot more meaning to rare and unique items.  Lastly, it would make merchants a useful commodity to the game world and put them in enormously high demand.  If I knew that dude in Salarr getup at the table next to me could TRULY tell me what is in their family's warehouse and TRULY sell it to me, I would be all over that guy to make a purchase.  And he could happily rip me off, too!  Think about it.  It seems far more ideal than the current situation where the merchant in question can basically only say, "Uhm, I don't know if we have that.  I'll get back to you some day.  Or .. maybe never.  Don't hold your breath."  These shouldn't be the words of a monopoly merchant.

Having said that, I think the updates as a whole are more ideal than the way things have been running and also a bit interesting.  It will certainly give "master" crafters an upper hand, which I like.

I'm saying there can and should be a balance with it.  Yes, completely -eliminating- custom orders and submission of items/npcs/whatever to things not on the submission request board will save on time for immortals so that they can do the extreme busy-work involved in coordinating a plot or so that they can switch into an npc and come and role-play with the players more.

At the same time...it's stagnating those clans that 'aren't allowed' to be worked on.  And some plots to go towards improving those clans, or furthering their interests, are now done for, because it ultimately would have ended in, or required along the way, new items/custom orders that would reflect the IC progress made.

So...I may as well just quit my clan, and play an indie unless I can get into one of those other clans, because the -only- (okay, not only, but this will make a picture) activities I'll be able to do are

a)Work on plots set by my clan immortal, through their increased interaction through npcs.  
b)Try to change things within the clan that I see as detrimental, -as long- as it results in no changes in equipment or requiring new equipment or npc's for a new expansion of that clan.  (For example, no new 'academy' sort of extensions, or 'forts for militia', or 'lumber camps' that you may have made, etc.  We can't make the npc's to furnish them)
c)Socialize with other clan players whose projects are similarly limited.

You really -can't- just put in -one- object/npc when you first login, -when you feel like it-, before switching into npc's or however else you wanted to 'promote role-play' with the changes now made?

I'm interested to see how clans go in this trial period.  My feeling, as of now, is against it.

Armaddict - No, it isn't a big diss on players.

I would guess that if there is an IC plot that involves a House and involves a lot of people - the derivatives of that plot will be finished up.  For example, if House Kadius is expanding its position within the Grey Forest and begin building a camp.  That camp will be done including its assorted npcs.  What is being limited here are nsolicited items, rooms, and npcs.

Please notice that people are encouraged to check the open projects page to see what is desired.  

As for the amount of time it takes to write a well crafted object.  From my own experience (since we are sharing), a well written, detailed and atmospheric item or npc can take upwards of two (2) hours to write.  After the initial writing there is a review process that can take up to another hour.  After that, there is placing the item in the game - which can take an additional hour.  This is assuming no further revision is required and the item is restarted.  Therefore, an immortal who's main role is to be a storyteller may be spending up to four (4) hours to make a single entity.

Something as "simple" as a building or camp can take months and involve over eighty (80) hours of effort on the part of a single immortal.  Further, the review and revision process will add half that amount of time.  Therefore, a single estate may have taken up to one hundred and twenty (120) hours to complete.

Now the thing about object creation (and room and npc) is that it takes time while online.  You tend to get distracted from what is going on in your clans because you are rushing to get an entity in.  This detracts from the roleplay of the game.  Plus, because you need to watch what is going on - you may do a half-assed job on the entity in the rush to get it done.  Mistakes crop up - they get caught in the review stage - entity is revised but rushed - mistakes - reviewed - the each revision adds more time.  

These are my own experiences from when I was on the immortal staff (a long time ago now).  The behind the scenes stuff is major, time consuming, and even stressful.  Every immortal has my utmost respect and thanks for taking their freetime to make the game as awesome as it is.

All these are OK for me.. Especially if a system for Player-controlled scar changes can be implemented, it would be fantastic. When a bahamet horrendeusly claws you on your torso and you can add a jagged slash scar to your chest for a few days, it would rock.
Err.. But I want to ask something with an example.

Example: Your character sees a barbed whip while someone swings it to a slave. He thinks: "Good.. But I'm a person of class.. I can have a better one made. I want agate chips instead of bone chips." Then he goes finding a master weaponcrafter. He logs his RP with the crafter, showing a usual barbed whip, then instructing the changes he wants. Then he opens NotePad, then the submission page in armageddon.org, he submits agate-barbed whip and it's logical crafting sequence. Then he provides the master weaponcrafter either money or the necessary materials till it gets approved in a few RL weeks. The master weaponcrafter contuniously RP's the crafting sequence. Then he one day sees...

>craft branch hide shard shard shard
You can craft these into an agate-barbed whip

This scenario used to work before. I remember a stonecrafter of mine carving special jasper raptor statuettes for a newbie PC clan using this scenario.
Would it still be possible to have bone and sandcloth fans, jade-inset obsidian combs or such special items if we take the responsibility to submit the item and its crafting sequence, RP the necessary scenario and be patient?

To the Anon Kank who replied to me earlier comment:

w00t.  Thank you.  We are on the same level.

I hope we can get some staff feedback on the issue of "how do I found out what the companies stock for special orders (not to be confused with custom orders) so I don't have to make a custom order."

Armaddict, you sound how I feel when I am frustrated. And I hate change. So, I can relate. But wait, stop, breathe. There is a big difference between a plot item, and a mossy light green and siilver aba of death which bears a striking resemblance to the green and silver aba of death.

Yes, we want players to continue to initiate plots. We want to support you in those plots. We'd rather not support you with special order items. However, if there is an object that you really need, I suggest instead of lamenting the lack of availability here, you wait until you feel less frustrated and write the mud, your imm, an unaffiliated player imm and explain your situation. That does not guarantee you'll get the object in question, but we do try to accomodate when we can.

Err.. I may be wronged but I believe clan agents are told about the change beforehand. Now they're explaining the possible goods they provide if you ask. So the answer is I guess the wicked "Find out IC."

Marko, your post was helpful.  I've never been too involved in this sort of thing, and showing it as that time-consuming is a good way of helping me to understand.

Halaster, I didn't mean less time on players altogether.  I meant less time in player-oriented goals.  Yes, this is supposed to be fun, but when one becomes staff, you -have- to expect to spend time on more private submissions that seem to have little do with anything.  It's part of role-play; it's a personal progression.  An example here would be a certain half-elf armorcrafter who played in the north, a long time ago.  He submitted his own items, sold them to clanned pc's, and ended up gaining a reputation as an armorcrafter whose quality rivaled Salarr's.  I know at least one premiere noble house wanted to hire him on as their permanent armorcrafter, which would have changed the way that clan handled armor.  All this was brought about by progression of the pc and -submissions-.  Things like this will no longer be able.

Once, I applied for and was approved to play a character who was a cenyrian.  This was approved because 'it is a role that can add to the depth of the game'.  It promoted role-play with a new group.  We didn't do that well because of stupidity, but now all roles such as that are impossible.  Once again, it was a role based around submissions.

Through limiting personal styles and personal progression in a character's goal, you are, indeed, limiting role-play.  This doesn't further it.  It furthers -plot- progression, but not -player- progression.  Call it twinkish if you like, but a lot of role-play comes as a result of players having the freedom to create new things that other players, in turn, appreciate and want to continue.

Nidhogg:  This is what I'm saying.  Instead of changing the policy on it altogether...why don't we just say 'no' to an item every once in awhile?  In essence, I think this will limit changes that players will try to bring to clans or to the gameworld itself, while at the same time drastically increasing the amount of correspondence that must be done just to -start- an item.  What happens when someone forms a prominent mercenary group, and tries to get a few items specific to his unit?  He walks up to Salarr, and they say 'We don't have designs for that.  Sorry, we don't know how to make new designs.  You have a design?  We can't make it.  Find an independent.  Oh, but that one who's the only one who's good enough made a new design this year already, so you'll have to wait until -next- year.'
Once again, I feel it -inhibits- the flow of the game and the notion of the 'real' zalanthas.  It -inhibits- role-play.

And yes, I -am- resistant to change, as most people have noted with my posts, I think.  I like change when it comes about in a flowing, realistic, and IC way.  And this is the enemy of that sort of change.  It will result in changes 'spawning' out of nowhere, only when it's realized that a problem is there.

It seems reasonable for the players of merchants and crafters,
especially those of the dynastic merchant houses in play, to be
able to request a list of what they/their crafters can provide.  It
is a business, after all.

I'm actually surprised this list isn't already available for player
perusal in the merchant clans.

I haven't read the rest of this thread, maybe later. I just wanted to say:

QuoteYAY.

Quote from: "Tamarin"I hope we can get some staff feedback on the issue of "how do I found out what the companies stock for special orders (not to be confused with custom orders) so I don't have to make a custom order."

That Kank was me. I did not mean to post as a kank. Basically, the answers are as close as your local PC Merchant.

If you know what you want, the Merchant player can talk that to a Clan Imm and say..

I need a funny little hat with pink bows on it.  

Said Imm should be able to say. I have loaded up a few things for you. We dont have exactly that, but we have these. Take a look and see if they are what you are looking for.

A comical hat with pink ribbons.
A funny cap with pink bows.


Also keep in mind that "the Big Three" don't sell everything. There are also other outlets in which you can get cool stuff. You just have to find out IC, who you need to talk to.

Stinky Pants Salarr may come back to you and say, "We really don't have anything like that. You might want to talk to these people."  Or just "I'm sorry, we don't have that."

And then it's up to you to find it.

I think this all sounds great.  Immortal-driven plots/quests/events and such should definitely be higher priority than Hunter Joe who wants a cloak that's two shades lighter than fuschia with tembo embroidery.

With the new description change policy, however, might I shamelessly redirect some attention to a recent idea of mine?  http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10862

So, in other words...the prominent houses will have to stop using it's resources to give people what they want to pay for?  Hardly sounds like effective business.

That's not very IC, in my opinion.

Quote from: "Twilight"First suggestion-If a crafting skill description says that "this skill is not fully implemented yet", you should have item submissions for that not fully implemented skill as one of the projects on the webpage, until it is considered fully implemented.

That sounds like a good idea to me.  You may feel free to suggest projects to the staff.  In this case, feel free to email me personally, since some of the less-used crafting skills are something I've been thinking about lately.

QuoteSecond suggestion-If a player points out a gap, and volunteers to spend their time to fill that gap, with immortal approval it should supercede the rules presented.  Example: a clan's specific items don't come from materials found where the clan is, so suggesting clan specific craftables made from local materials, and volunteering to come up with said craftables.

This is how things are intended to be.  If a staff member wants to oversee a project, then they are allowed to accept submissions for it, as per what Sanvean said in her origanal post.  If you want to suggest a project to the staff, feel free, but do not work on it until talking to them, as no staff members may have time to work on it with you.

QuoteAs a master crafter, I can submit one item per month?  Or one item per skill I am a master at per month?  Or one item total ever per skill I am a master at, not to exceed one item per month?  Does putting together a wagon count?

One item per month, total. That one item must corrospond to a skill that you are sufficiently skilled in.  Wagons do count.

QuoteHow about items that probably would not be appropriate with crafting recipes, but I am a master crafter with that skill, and I want to make one of that item, ever, for a specific person, purpose, etc?

Submissions for items under merit of being a "master crafter" must include a crafting recipe.  So, you can not do that at this time.

QuoteIn the past, when I saw what I considered a gap, or an opportunity to add something that did not exist, or to flesh out the world in a new and interesting way, I wrote something up and sent it in.  What is the preferred new process, simply email the mud with what we view the gap/opportunity etc to be, and let the immortals see if they agree then prioritise it on their own workload?

Emailing mud with project suggtions is both allowed and good.  Just don't make any submissions until an immortal has agreed to work on it with you.

QuoteIs this a situation that has been brought about by crafting, really?  I remember before crafting went in, people would complain about all the requests that merchants got for custom orders.  I can only imagine the volumes of items submitted has shot up since then.

Interesting question.  I can't say I know for sure if the rise of the crafting system is directly responsable for the shift of emphasis in the game from roleplaying to adding content.  My personal feeling is that it was probably one of many factors.

Armaddict, I completely get what you're saying. However, while you, as you said, rarely request special items, there are a great many requests on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. Many of these items don't forward plots, they are made for one person. Then that person dies and it just takes up space in the database. If in the next three months, when the policy is reevaluated you find that you have been inhibited, open a dialouge with an imm explaining the impact the policy has had on RP. Hopefully, we will see positive results as an effect of the change, if not, the three months will be sufficient time to recognize that the policy isn't working out without breaking the game.

These guidelines don't sound so bad to me, and like was said, many will be reviewed in 3 months' time.

As far as items go, personally I never liked the idea of submitting custom stuff - items that are completely original and there is only one ever - that just seems like a waste of database space. Unless it's a plot item. Then it's all gravy.

I do enjoy writing up new items that could be used by anyone if they had the resources and means to get it, especially if they fill in a percieved gap, or if I had some sort of idea, e.g.. there's a lot of creature A around location B, but I don't see many things made using creature A's parts, so I want to fix that and toss a few things out. Zalanthans would make use of just about everything, I think.

But I can agree with writing up only things that are on the 'needed' list - and if a player thinks there's a big gap in a certain location that they're just hopping to fix, why not just email the mud and see if anyone else 'up there' agrees with you and is willing to work on it - or at least put it on a future 'to do' list? Or maybe you'll find out that the gap isn't as big as you thought, or that it's really not necessary because of reasons a, b, and c.

Ironically, I ordered a custom item many many months ago, and since then, that character died, and I went through about 3 more until now.  Then BLAM someone is walking around with my custom order.  I found that to be sort of funny, so remembering that gives me a better idea of why they did this.

Quote...I know for sure if the rise of the crafting system is directly responsable for the shift of emphasis in the game from roleplaying to adding content...

All that I will say, is that if you think just because a lot of items get made you think that the emphasis of the game has shifted away from role-play, you aren't following the advice that's been given time and time again.

Just like emoting does not equal role-play, neither does going out to actively find people to interact with, or furthering plots.

Role-playing is playing a -character-.  It is -being- someone else, in this case, in Zalanthas.  Just because a player spends a lot of time crafting items, or creating new ones for specific purposes in game, does -not- mean they aren't role-playing.

I say again...there has been -no- shift towards adding content.  It has become available, and people are taking advantage of that with their characters.  More characters may be sending in new items, yes, but does that mean they're doing it for the hell of it?  Most items serve a specific purpose, either for that character or for the group.  The ones that -are- made for the hell of it...the immortals have -always- been free to say 'no'.

Quote from: "Armaddict"So, in other words...the prominent houses will have to stop using it's resources to give people what they want to pay for?  Hardly sounds like effective business.

That's not very IC, in my opinion.

That's not the issue. The issue which I think is a good one is that there is just too much damn stuff and it takes too much time. Also think about how many people want custom items?? What happens to that item after that person is dead. It sits in inventory taking up space, nobody else will ever know it is there, nobody else will ever use it.

I'd like to see that time being used for more productive and important things.

Custom orders tend to be hard to put to the side because players want their items,  merchants hate to bitched at by other players cause it makes playing less fun, and Imms like to keep their clanies happy.  

So something that should be done whenever the Imm gets around to it takes some kind of billing. Putting other cool stuff to the side.

Do we really need a grapefuit colored weighted throwing knife when we have a purple, red and blue on hand already?

Also, making customs takes a lot of time, and every item has to be written up, edited and approved.

Now if you want IC reasoning.. Well, the time and labor it takes to make and test a custom order is really not as efficent as just making something that a house may already have a pattern for.  They could just have a basic crafter bang out the item as opposed to having a master crafting make it.

Also if you come up and ask me for a Kitana, the Imms may not approve that "kind" of item being made, so either you will have to settle for something else, or I will have to explain in some IC fashion why we can't make it.

If this change was made to -promote- roleplay, sarahjc, than that's exactly the issue.

It's making an ooc change that will drasticly reduce the role-playing options of the players.  It reduces choice in how the game is played.  It sets unreasonable IC guidelines.

It lowers the 'purity' of role-play.

Quote from: "Armaddict"

Quote...I know for sure if the rise of the crafting system is directly responsable for the shift of emphasis in the game from roleplaying to adding content...

Quoting out of context is bad. VERY BAD. It makes me not trust you or your opinions because you are fudging the statements made by otehrs.

He really said,

QuoteInteresting question. I can't say I know for sure if the rise of the crafting system is directly responsable for the shift of emphasis in the game from roleplaying to adding content. My personal feeling is that it was probably one of many factors.

All in all, I like Pantoufle's ideas, and a bunch of the other constructive posts on this thread.

I was referring to the part where he said 'the shift away from role-playing and towards adding content'.

It insinuates that there has, indeed, been a shift away from role-playing.  And there hasn't been.

If you read closely, it has nothing to do with the content of the post.  Him not knowing for sure what caused the shift is irrelevant.  I'm contesting the shift of emphasis itself.

One quick question:

http://www.zalanthas.org/ArmDocs/Community/current.html

Is that up to date, or should we only be using the link below:

http://www.zalanthas.org/blogs/current/

Or can we use both?

Edit: Okay, two quick questions.

By 'special order' do you mean 'custom item', or do you mean 'any new objects whatsoever'?

I.E. would an object that could be loaded over and over again for anyone who wants it be okay, so long as there is not something already like it in the database?

Quote from: "sarahjc"What happens to that item after that person is dead. It sits in inventory taking up space, nobody else will ever know it is there, nobody else will ever use it.

Moot aside:  I don't believe that's the case.  Many moons earlier, when I'd consider playing Family merchants, custom orders were always presented with caveats that after such-and-such time, designs would transform to public domain.  I've seen similar done.

Quote from: "Armaddict"I say again...there has been -no- shift towards adding content.  It has become available, and people are taking advantage of that with their characters.  More characters may be sending in new items, yes, but does that mean they're doing it for the hell of it?  Most items serve a specific purpose, either for that character or for the group.  The ones that -are- made for the hell of it...the immortals have -always- been free to say 'no'.

Our contention isn't that player submissions are made "for the hell of it."  Our contention is that they do less to drive plot and entertain the majority of the playerbase than animating NPCs, architecting plots, and running clans does.  I understand (as I mentioned above) that you're particularly frustrated about this issue, Armaddict, but the staff have spent a lot of time thinking about and discussing it, and we're in a better position to determine whether there has been a shift towards adding content.  You have no knowledge of what my e-mail box looks like on a daily basis, or how many custom submissions the average staff member receives, much less whether those submissions have merit.

Now, whether our policy changes will be successful or not remains to be seen.  If they aren't, we'll consider something else.  In the meantime, if you feel that this is a "pretty big 'fuck you'" ...  well, I'll leave out my reply to that.

Finally, in a more recent post, you suggested that actively finding people to interact with, and furthering plots don't equate to roleplay.  I agree.  Roleplay is really more of an internal process, or at least it is on Arm.  It's about portraying a textured, real character that reacts in real ways to his environment.  What I don't see is how that furthers your argument that we need more custom item submissions in the game than the new policy allows.  You can roleplay with all of the things that are in our database now, lacking that one different, new, unique sword isn't going to hamper your roleplay...  is it?  What specific custom items do you NEED to roleplay?  If you can come up with appropriate examples, then maybe those will need to be accounted for by the new policy.

Quote from: "Armaddict"If this change was made to -promote- roleplay, sarahjc, than that's exactly the issue.

It's making an ooc change that will drasticly reduce the role-playing options of the players.  It reduces choice in how the game is played.  It sets unreasonable IC guidelines.

It lowers the 'purity' of role-play.

How much Role play is being avoided here.. I don't think its soo much. Infact I think it makes the merchant role much easier. A role that if you haven't noticed.. -nobody- likes to play.  IMO the fact that merchant house PC's no longer have to stress about customs makes things more enjoyable for the role.

And if you really want that super cool item. Find a PC Mastercrafter, tell them what you want, and perhaps they can submit it for their monthly item. Inviting much more roleplay then just "waying" a Pc Merchant and asking, "Is my stuff done yet."

Yeah, I've seen far too many good merchant PCs retire supposedly from the OOC and IC stress of the job.

Armaddict, if it makes you feel any better, how about this:

The staff has been experiencing a high volume of requests for
objects conducive to roleplay and has decided to suspend its
focus on this facet of their activity for three months in favor of
plot and roleplay independent of new object and new clan
construction.  Policy will be reviewed three months from now
for either continuation or amendment.  Thank you for your
patience in this matter.

Sound any better?  I don't think any of the staff are trying to
rape you with a broken glass dildo, nor anyone else.  I don't
think they're attempting to manipulate the way others play
either.  The new policies are nothing more than an experiment
in focusing on a direction the staff would like to go.  Who knows?
Maybe they will be just itching to get back to making items
again.

Quote from: "Lazloth"

Quote from: "sarahjc"What happens to that item after that person is dead. It sits in inventory taking up space, nobody else will ever know it is there, nobody else will ever use it.

Moot aside:  I don't believe that's the case.  Many moons earlier, when I'd consider playing Family merchants, custom orders were always presented with caveats that after such-and-such time, designs would transform to public domain.  I've seen similar done.

Yes, true, but how often is that design used? And how many custom items are re-useable. I've submitted customs only for the player to die and never even collect the item.

That is a lot of wasted time on my part and my Imms part.

Okay, I agree with Armaddict in some of what he says. I also agree that writing up objects do NOT take that much time especially when someone is submitting the object descriptions in full. (sdesc, ldesc, keywords and main) So only on orginial objects that have to be fully written by an imm would really take up a lot of time. There is also a command that can be used to show items of that keyword. (But I imagine typing cloak in that command makes anyone's eyes cross from the amount of them)

So submitted items that are already written up really dont take up that much time unless someone is trying to do 50 of them at once. That being said, if there are items 'made' and not being used, purge or reuse that onum on something new.

Armaddict, if you built, you have to remember how selfish some can be and greedy in demanding things for their personal use. Though you show reserve, and I do too from my time as an imm on another mud, you have to remember how not all can be so polite nor control their want of 'special' things for themselves.

I dont agree with all the policy changes but in the end, this mud belongs to the imms and they ARE being generous in just testing it out and letting opinions come in later on how we, the players whom help make the mud what it is, feel about those changes after trying them out.

Now, onto a question I have. I have been working on a slew of crafting items that are currently lacking IC and both my clan imms know of it though it doesnt really 'directly' benefit their clan. So does this mean the time I spent for the last two rl weeks while I wasnt playing ARM was now a waste or just that I need to go and find an imm sponsor for the project?

I already cited examples.  The half-elf armorcrafter.  The cenyrians.  Roles like that will be eliminated.

What's the point of making a high-class armorcrafter who can only make what the current coding allows.  What if a dwarf has a -focus- of improving armor as a whole?

It isn't about not being able to have the buff ass sword.  It's about not having the -choice- anymore to try and make progress in certain areas.

Yes, your inbox may be full of useless submissions.  But, like I said...all they require is a single word.  "No."  However, you have to realize that almost -every- submission is an addition to the game.  Not in content, but in role-play.

This change takes away from -personal- progression of characters (the real fun of the game, really), and -forces- everyone to fall in and progress plots for everyone.  Now, that jeweler who really doesn't give a fuck about that plot will have to get involved, just so that their character still possesses goals.

Just because people start to take advantage of the abilities allowed by the staff's own creations, the crafting code, to add different facets to characters and groups throughout the known world, does -not- mean that they are shifting away from role-play -just- to start making items.

I -am- very frustrated with this issue, because I think it damages the integrity of the game itself.  You make a character with your own ideas in mind that further the game world, make it move in a certain direction as to -your- ideas...but your innovations can't be made, because there are too many emails in your inbox?  Yes, there's more work involved, but that is, to my understanding, part of the reason people join the staff, yes?  To further the game world.

As I said, I haven't made a custom order in a long time.  I won't be losing much in most of my characters.  But occasionally, I -do- have characters that put forth the time to try to make a change, and now these changes cannot be reflected because that character didn't happen to be involved in certain projects.

I realize I'm the minority here, and that a single player's opinions do nothing.  But I'm saying now.  This will make individual characters less fun to play unless they actively join a plot that they may or may not want to.  And I think that removes some enjoyability of the game, knowing that people are going to be 'forced' into certain niches within the game.

It's obvious that my opinions aren't going to bear any impact.  But I still feel that this change will ultimately remove from the game, in all of the -small- facets of role-play, rather than add to it through it's increased immortal participation in plots.  Why?  Because immortals still can't be on all the time for that increased participation, and now people will have less to think about, personally, with their character during those off times.

After reading the many posts this thread and the new policies have attracted, I find myself in agreement with Armaddict. Not that crafting at this point in my character has occured, I had thoughts of specific creations I would want my character to be able to do years later down the road. Now, with this new policy I will be unable to complete those ideas and plans. Armaddict has some very valid points in any case and you all must be able to see them.

Quote from: "Ayashah"Okay, I agree with Armaddict in some of what he says. I also agree that writing up objects do NOT take that much time especially when someone is submitting the object descriptions in full. (sdesc, ldesc, keywords and main) So only on orginial objects that have to be fully written by an imm would really take up a lot of time. There is also a command that can be used to show items of that keyword. (But I imagine typing cloak in that command makes anyone's eyes cross from the amount of them)

You might think so, but that's not the case.  I can think of very, very few items that have been submitted to me that I considered acceptable for implementation into the game without some serious rewriting.  In these cases, it can often take more time because you now have to rewrite the description so that it contains correct spelling and grammar while still attempting to remain faithful to the spirit of the item that players submitted.

Aside from this, the staff member still has to fiddle with all of the flags on the item, making sure that the materials and weight and cost are appropriate.  Some players include these things in their submissions, but many do not and many that do submit them do so with values that are completely out of whack.  While for me, putting in an item might not take hours and hours, it still takes at least twenty or thirty minutes before I'm comfortable with it.  If it's a Storyteller that's doing the work, they then have to submit it to a HL+ for approval.  That's an additional amount of time put into a single item.

And as for a find command for items in the database, you're correct.  But it still takes a considerable amount of time to go through what is really a hugely vast database.

So...really...it's just too much of a hassle to deal with.

All I expect, is that after this...the immortals better be a -lot- more visible in working with their clans and the game world.  Otherwise, it will be pretty clear that some things said here weren't true.

Interesting policies. I'll be even more interested to see the results when the three months is up. That's all I have to say about this.

About scars/tattoos/this kind of changes:

Quote from: "Larrath"In its core, this idea is also not bad...however, restricting this to a PC's lifetime means that two year PC that started at age 13 is going to have a pretty awkward time.
Why not limit this to once per three RL months, instead?

I agree with that. Twice per X RL months or once per X days of playing char Y would be a bit better, IMHO.

I personally think that the policy changes could be interesting.  I was an RP wiz on another MUD years back, and I recall the constant special requests to be the most annoying part.  I can't speak for the staff, but I know that when I took up the position I had in my mind a number of things that I was driven to do.  I did those things for a couple of days... then I spent a lot of time keeping up with the backlog of requests.  A month later my grand plans were pretty much over.

The only thing I saw in the policy changes that made me balk a little was the part about not opening up new player clans.  I hope that is not a hard and steadfast rule.  I can understand making it a hard rule that such clans can't request anything, but I hope there is nothing in the policy that would prevent the staff from throwing in a hand if they find the cause to be worthy.  Namely, if a leader rises up and creates a stable organization that is adding to the game, I hope that there is nothing to prevent an imm from deciding to help that group move forward.

Otherwise, I like the changes.  They are a little Draconian right now, but I think it might have a purifying effect on people.  It can give the staff a chance to refocus and put things in priority.  After the three months, perhaps some of the restrictions could be reconsidered.  I don't think that a three month break is going to cause the MUD to go to hell.  

I personally don't think that special item creation is a very large part of Armageddon RP.  True, some people are going to feel the pain and some people's RP will be hurt.  Any change is going to hurt someone.  It can't be helped.  However, I think that the potential gain is far greater then the potential hurt.  Consider that instead of having a staff member working on a single item that my or may not help the RP flow in the game, that staff member might now be animating NPCs for a wider audience.  Not to poke at anyone, but I think that the people this is going to hurt are the 'elite'.  I don't mind the elite of the game getting an extra hand so long as they are spreading the RP love around, but to be honest I think that playing to the wider audience, which in general gets by very well without special items, is more beneficial for the MUD.  If this change means that the chances of a the Kuraci imm sending an agent into Allanak with spice hidden in his boot and making that agent talk his way past animate guards is more likely, or it is means that the Byn will get more custom exciting missions, I am all for this.

QuoteAll I expect, is that after this...the immortals better be a -lot- more visible in working with their clans and the game world. Otherwise, it will be pretty clear that some things said here weren't true.

Actually, I'd have to say I hope not to be. I'd rather you didn't know that you were in the middle, or the end, or the side-show of an immortal facilitated plot.

That you don't -always- realise that the character who's doing thingywhatsit is actually my NPC that I'm using to add an extra dimension to the clan.

What I totally agree with is the issue that this may bring about some changes, I think this is going to be an interesting time to see what effect this has on the game world.

Quote from: "Armaddict"So...really...it's just too much of a hassle to deal with.

All I expect, is that after this...the immortals better be a -lot- more visible in working with their clans and the game world.  Otherwise, it will be pretty clear that some things said here weren't true.

What do you think we're lying about?

I'm glad to see all this debate, which I appreciate. As I mentioned earlier, this isn't something the staff decided on hastily, but took a lot of deliberation, and built into the plan is the chance to reassess it in three months.

To reply to some of the questions that have been asked:

Publishing a list of items for merchants for the houses is not impossible and has been discussed.  It is up to the individual staff handling clans to decide how they want to address the issue of letting their merchants know what they have.

If something already exists in the database, you can probably get it through a merchant, with the obvious exception of some quest items.  If it doesn't, you can no longer go the route of writing it up and ordering it.  The database is plenty big, and we have items ranging from the arcane to the plebian, including severed fingers, lacy nightgowns, and purple dumplings.  I do not think a strange item will scream out "quest quest" to anyone that sees it any more than they currently do.  

Frankly, there are a ton of headaches surrounding special orders, including players hassling merchants, wanting things that are very little different than existing items, wanting things that are incongruous, etc.   Anything that brings down the numbers of submissions that are badly written, unnecessary, anachronistic, or ill-conceived, or which reduces the amount of emails going back and forth demanding to know why the Kadian merchant hasn't delivered their item or threatening trade war because the Salarr delivered a bone shortsword instead of a long bone shortsword is, in my opinion, well worth it.

Fleshing out crafting is something that depends on a staff member driving it.  I believe Gilvar and some others will post calls for the crafts they want to work with, and Raesanos has also said he will work with them.  If cooking is posted, you are welcome to submit cooking recipes.  If you are interested in Zalanthan cuisine, you might find my post asking for seasonings of interest.   You can also submit recipes with the idea command, which I encourage the use of.

I totally agree that crafts that need fleshing out should be; I hope that staff members will step up and work with specific ones, as I am doing with brewing.  We created that page as a blog so everyone could easily and quickly update it as they needed.  That page will be swapped in for the current Projects page.  If you have a crafting project that you're working on, I suggest emailing mud and/or Raesanos and we will try to find someone to work with you.  I sympathize with the pain of losing work, but I am not sure that spending time on something automatically obliges us to put it in, even though this has been the ongoing, and often mistaken, assumption demonstrated in the past.

Mastercrafter is defined in my post.  It's someone with a sufficiently high percentage in that skill that they can make something specialized.  You can email mud to find out if you qualify.  One item per crafter per month.

If you see a clan-related gap, you are welcome to point it out to the associated staff members, or to email mud about it.  Wait for someone to say they will work on it before creating it; this also means player effort doesn't go wasted or feeling unappreciated when we don't put it in.  This has been a serious problem in the past - people send in things without checking whether they're needed beforehand, and that ends up being a waste of their time or a sore point when their intricate, 40 room,  creation doesn't go in immediately.

To reply to some of the points that have been made:

Part of the rationale behind this is to allow the staff to prioritize projects.  The current projects blog, which should acquire more posts as additional staffers fill in their own projects, is our way of saying: these are the things we are currently working on.  If you have other ideas, you're welcome to bounce them off staff, but don't assume we will automatically put them in.  I appreciate people wanting to contribute and will continue to celebrate their efforts in the Weekly Update.  However, we're trying to steer those efforts to be the most useful, and appreciate your cooperation in that attempt.

This is in no shape denying support for players, and I'm mystified by the notion that this is intended to say "fuck you" to anyone.  This is intended to move immortal energy to something that affects a broad range of players rather than specialized individuals or sets.  There are staff members handling independent players as well as specific clans.  This is indeed intended to facilitate and promote roleplay, and it's something we believe will benefit the game overall.  

This policy does not lower the variety of items in the game in any way, and I'm mystified as well as to how anyone can assert that.  We are not taking away any items, and there will still be items produced for specific projects.

Running a MUD is an ongoing process, and over the course of the last decade, we've made a lot of changes.  We're testing this one and seeing how it works.  Hence the "we will re-evaluate in three months" line that appears repeatedly in that post.

You can still submit items/NPCs/rooms/etc.  In order to make sure they a) get used, and b) are the best use of our time, we are asking that you adhere to certain guidelines.

Many people's points seem to revolve around the "Yes, I understand you would like to work on your own projects first, but before you start that, couldn't you put in these three objects for me?" and the answer is, no.  There are a LOT of you out there, and many of you are asking for special attention, time, and  energy. All of the staff only has so much time in the day, and for the 57th bajillion time - this is a volunteer effort.  No one gets paid for it, no one gets fame or glory for it, and at a guess I would say that staff sees a whole lot more nastiness than niceness.  I have a vested interest in keeping the staff happy and working on the game, and will continue to try to accomplish that.

I sponsored the Cenyrians.  That involved a lot of time in terms of email, special items were needed, and in the end it didn't seem to me that enough was added to the game to merit the amount of time required.  This is one of the reasons I don't sponsor special roles anymore - I've given it a good shot, and it's a usually unappreciated effort that takes time that I would rather spend on other projects.  I understand that my decision displeases some people who would like me to continue sponsoring roles, but the fact of the matter is that my time is valuable enough to me that I want  to use it elsewhere.  This is my choice as an individual, and trying to make me feel guilty because I'm not willing to give up time to individuals rather than the game overall is not going to work.

QuoteAll I expect, is that after this...the immortals better be a -lot- more visible in working with their clans and the game world.

Or what?  Will you call the Better MUD Bureau on us?  Perhaps you could demand your money back.  I find the arrogance and egotism in a statement like this one of the best arguments for this policy.  We don't sit around thinking of ways to screw the players over, or enhance our characters, or god knows what else.  We spent a lot of time thinking and discussing the matter, it's based on a lot of factors that we can see and a few that players may be able to, and assuming that we're doing it for some nebulous benefit to ourselves and giving us an ultimatum that you'd better see a result because you're entitled to a certain amount of work from the staff is a little on the fucked up side.  Seriously.

Sounds like you guys put a lot of thought into it. I'll be interested to see how it works out after three months from the IMM and player perspectives.

What about current projects that entail the construction of tribal camps?

Are these now in a sort of 'limbo', or will construction continue if it is in the interest of the staff overseeing it?

Thanks.

First of all I'd like to say that I fully support the staff's decision.  In my playing time I've recieved three custom items.  I never made any OOC arrangements to get them, but the person handling my order apparently thought that was the best way to please me.  In no instance did it increase my enjoyment of the game or ability to roleplay by any large amount.

But I share Rindan's concerns about the policy regarding player-run clans.  Does this mean that I'm not allowed to gather a handful of adventurers to shack up in an apartment and venture forth to slay the villanous and the inadequately protected?  Can I not IM all my friends and suggest that we all create city elves for our next character?  Or can I do these things only with the understanding that no matter what I do and how much time I spend working on it, I'll never get any staff support.  This seems dissatisfying to me because I don't know any real way to start my own broad-ranging plots without a player-driven clan in some form or another.  Since I've never had any great amount of luck being involved in such plots anyway, player-driven or otherwise, this seems to be saying that I should just give up and forget it.  So while experimenting with this policy for three months won't bother me very much, I really hope that this policy, as I presently understand it, is abandoned or modified.

I was thinking on this subject while driving home from a meeting. I know a lot think that 'special objects' arent needed/arent roleplay in themselves. Mostly, that is probably true, but not in all cases.

Let me give an example :

A number of years ago, I had a pc that LOATHED a certain wealthy person and most in that House but was commissioned to make that person a 'special object'. So, of course, my pc did. Now, since my pc loathed that person she took a risk to insult that person and their House. Not wanting to die, the insult was very carefully insinuated into the object. It gave my pc GREAT pleasure to see that object used by that wealthy person and even greater pleasure when it became a House icon object that those of status in that House would definitely HAVE that object. I still get a kick out of seeing that object used.

Object creation can be a roleplay in itself. What was made because one selfish want of a pc IC might become a standard item for the House....or not.

Again, its worth a try seeing how the changes work or if they dont. It definitely affects my pc but then again, life for my pc could change their wants/goals. What was made in my background might never see fruitation and that was a given upon making them. I think a lot of the frustration is knowing OOCly that your pc's IC goals are completely unattainable now but due to your background, you still have to try.

Ayashah.

Master crafters are still allowed one special item per month.  So scenarios like that can still happen, as I understand it.

I like Ayashah's post...but I also support the staff...thats real cool, but it sounds like a rarer thing.

I personally don't need leet gear.
I'd much rather have a free imm animate the bartender.
Id much rather....



It's cool, I hate to see people aruging with the staff too...because it doesn't matter whos right or wrong in any of those arguments, still arguing.

Wheres the happy go lucky bunny hugging...errr...howd that go?

Quote from: "EvilRoeSlade"Ayashah.

Master crafters are still allowed one special item per month.  So scenarios like that can still happen, as I understand it.

I caught that :)

I was just trying to give an example on how special objects CAN be rp in themselves.

*ruffles EvilRoeSlade's hair*

Its not just about master crafters, these changes. It affects other things but since I never tried to make a clan before, I cant really given an example on that. :)  Now, my buddy that started out with a d-elf and made SLK out of it, he might be able to. :)

QuoteBut I share Rindan's concerns about the policy regarding player-run clans. Does this mean that I'm not allowed to gather a handful of adventurers to shack up in an apartment and venture forth to slay the villanous and the inadequately protected? Can I not IM all my friends and suggest that we all create city elves for our next character?

No, you're quite welcome to do it, although I have a few qualms about that last one you mention.  But during the three months (and possibly after it) of this experiment, do not email in expecting coded clan, objects, tattoos, etc.

QuoteWhat about current projects that entail the construction of tribal camps?

Are these now in a sort of 'limbo', or will construction continue if it is in the interest of the staff overseeing it?

I would presume that if the staff member previously overseeing them is interested still, they'll post about it.  If this was an independent project that hasn't been cleared with the staff previously, then I don't think it will happen, but as always it depends on a staff member being willing to drive the project.

Quote from: "Sanvean"Mastercrafter is defined in my post.  It's someone with a sufficiently high percentage in that skill that they can make something specialized.  You can email mud to find out if you qualify.  One item per crafter per month.

I think this is a nifty addition; if Salarr needs to generate a custom item, well, Salarr should hire some decent crafters, eh?  Adds dimension, gives some roles some nice (albeit ooc) worth, yada yada yada.

Only point I'd hazard is .. I can't see this reducing the volume of custom items much.  I could be off-base, I'll admit I haven't mixed with merchant houses in a while, but I can't really envision more than, say, four or five total "custom orders" per rl month game-wide, if that.  (Someone can dispute this immediately I'm sure.)  I can, however, foresee many more than four "mastercrafters" in the approachable future.

Firstoff, it sounds peachy to me. *silver shrug*
Nothing too revolutionary, nothing that's going to kill the rp on the mud.

My only thought is that perhaps the number two is too arbitrary when deciding how many changes to your pc you can ask for. (Well, you can ask, but will you get?)  However, long lived pc's, that go from teen, to adult, to elderly.... I bet the staff would recognize that suchandsuch's hair should now be white now or that bumblebleep the warrior got his ear cut off in one of Halaster's quests.... and act accordingly.

So I guess what I'm saying is, if it's important, it'll get changed, or you'll get that little voice in your head asking "Hey, would you like a desc change? You're kindof older than Tek just about."  

As for an arbitrary number... two might not be bad.... most pc's don't live long enough to move from more than one age group. Teen to adult or adult to elder...

By the way! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU to whoever fixed the typo in my main description... You have NO idea how irritating it was for me to read it time after time for months... it was awesome to suddenly see that d put in. I was kicking myself muchly for not catching it.

Proxie

I see two options in my pessimistic vision, regarding the matter of 'master' crafters:
1) Nobody uses any custom objects anymore, other than the odd hat or longbow every five RL months.  In this situation, seeing an irregular item will immediately point out that the said character is involved in a quest of some kind, since there will not be any other way to get that spiral-carved vestric tooth axe.  This will go doubly true for PCs who would have lesser access to the master crafters - namely the House Guards and Hunters.
"Come on, I know you got that dirk somewhere!  Stop playing games and just spill it!" is going to be a very bothersome line when you can't say it was a custom order and expect for them to shut up about it.

2) People realize that an RL month is less time than what custom orders take right now, and every Mercantile and/or Political clan starts hiring tailors en masse due to the vacuum created.  Tailors won't have to struggle worth anything, they'd just go "uhh, yes, I know a bit of stitching and I'm not all that good" and immediately get hired on terms that put Senior Merchants to shame.  House Borsail will have its tailor and Oash will have its tailor, and Kadius will try to get two in each city-state...the competition for warriors in clans will be nothing compared to this.
This is something of a doomsday prophecy, but people are not going to forget about their custom items.
Odds are, in fact, that they'll just write the same submission and send them to the crafter to send to the MUD.  With cheaper and faster submissions, this will just make imbalances between the clothing abilities of Borsail and Oash or Winrothol and Tenneshi.
This may also result in half-elf tailor PCs that are drowning in 'sid from day 4, since the House won't mind sticking them in a room with a thousand rolls of silk for them to train on.

Oh, and of course, let's not forget that clever little independent tailor that will charge noble PCs 15k+ 'sid for every runebane-dyed button on their new pair of pajamas.


These points are all taken to an extreme that is just past the point of plausibility, but I still think they should be considered.

Quote from: "Delirium"One quick question:

http://www.zalanthas.org/ArmDocs/Community/current.html

Is that up to date, or should we only be using the link below:

http://www.zalanthas.org/blogs/current/

Or can we use both?

Email the MUD account and tell them that the first link needs to be updated to the second link.  The first one is old like cheese, and not meant to be eaten.

It sounds ok to me.  It is only three months, not the end of the world.  After two or three months we'll have an idea about which of these changes actually hurt, help or have no noticable affect on the game.  Right now all we have is speculation about what might happen, and how these changes might have affected a few people in the past.  Wait and see, that's my motto.  

Hey, at least it isn't large groups of syncronized spear-throwing gith.  ;)


AC

I just want to add some input, as one of the new Kadian imms.  I came on staff not too long ago, and like all staff members, I have discovered that I like and dislike certain aspects of the job, and I tend to focus on those I like.

I like(d) making objects.  However, it's does take up a lot of my time, and I have been having to take up a lot of various HL/OL's time in approvals.

New or unique items are not inherently bad.  But I think the real opportunity with this 3-month moratorium is to take a close look at how badly we really need these things.  I don't think that roleplay will suffer; rather I suspect it will have to become more creative, and we will no longer have people's plots on hold while they wait for their custom item to come in.

There's probably 10k Kadian items in the database.  That's a lot.  There's a dozen different pairs of black silk pants alone, all slightly different, but honestly....don't we really just need 1-3 of those?  Which is why requests for anakore-embroidered black silk pants are really kinda silly, don't you agree?  Can't you just wear a plain pair of black silk pants and roleplay the line of dancing crimson-embroidered anakores along the waistline?

Basically I want to echo what other imms have said here: I want to be playing with you guys.  I want to be giving you shit with your IC superiors, flirting with you with an NPC bartender, playing the Bynner who is secretly part of a cult in a plot to overthrow House Fancypants.

Another thing that some of us will be concentrating on during the next three months, is perfecting what we have.  There is currently a backlog of several thousand bugs/typos/ideas.  That's not because we're lazy.  That's just what happens when you have so much content in the game.  Many of these things will take time to implement or fix, and I for one will be concentrating more on them.

I definitely value most of the input provided here.  I think a lot of good suggestions and points have been made.

Here's a suggestion of my own.  It's only three months.  You'd probably have to wait half that long for a special item to appear anyway, so just give it a try.  Give it three months.  It's not going to kill you.

Quote from: "Vanth"
There's probably 10k Kadian items in the database.  That's a lot.  There's a dozen different pairs of black silk pants alone, all slightly different, but honestly....don't we really just need 1-3 of those?  Which is why requests for anakore-embroidered black silk pants are really kinda silly, don't you agree?  Can't you just wear a plain pair of black silk pants and roleplay the line of dancing crimson-embroidered anakores along the waistline?

Does that mean I can put on a plain bone ring and rp that it has huge honking diamonds on it?

*ducks and runs*

Just being light-hearted and joking. Dont get offended :)

Quote from: "Ayashah"

Quote from: "Vanth"
There's probably 10k Kadian items in the database.  That's a lot.  There's a dozen different pairs of black silk pants alone, all slightly different, but honestly....don't we really just need 1-3 of those?  Which is why requests for anakore-embroidered black silk pants are really kinda silly, don't you agree?  Can't you just wear a plain pair of black silk pants and roleplay the line of dancing crimson-embroidered anakores along the waistline?

Does that mean I can put on a plain bone ring and rp that it has huge honking diamonds on it?

*ducks and runs*

Just being light-hearted and joking. Dont get offended :)

Sure, as long as you don't scream "abuse" when an NPC kills you for it. :P  (continuing in the mode of joking, for those who didn't get it)

While I fear that this may cause a wave of spam crafting to become masterful, I can personally see the benefit to this three month period, so I don't feel too bad at all.

I did recently spec order an item (before the deadline fo rthis I hope, lol.) that I wrote up at the time of my character's creation, because I've personally not seen anything like it in the game, and it's part of how I visioned the character, so if I last long enough for it to be made, I'll jump for joy.

Touching on the above paragraph, this could be an -awesome- opportunity for independent crafters. You only get one item per IRL month? Open up the money purse and start asking for donations.  :D

Yes, I know before you could submit submit submit... But if you think of it now, such items are going to be metallic in their value, and to a merchant House, a master crafter might just be well kept for the service he/she provides. That alone will enhance the roleplay in the game with regard to the crafting system.

Also on the note of imms wanting to spend more time with the players in game... THANK YOU! In my past in the game, nothing's been worse than sending repeated mails to clan imms for weeks, and then expressing a wish to retire for not getting any help in areas that -do- need imm help and losing sight of my character. Especially when the character is beloved, and you are fighting to keep your love, while understanding the imms are probably very busy.

If this clears that problem up, then I will not complain one bit ever, even when I do decide I want to app my petrified mek bone, sephiroth sword with serrated steel teeth!  :shock:

The special orders thing seems to be drawing a lot of attention, which is what I will address.

Firstly... there are like a bajillion items in this game. Seriously, people. I could probably load up an object every day from the existing database that 90% of you have never seen before and keep it up until the sun explodes. (Exaggerration, but you get the point.) Don't worry about special items sticking out now that they are very much restricted.

Anyway... my main point. How does this promote roleplay? Easy! I won't even go the route of saying, "Oh well immortals have more time to help RP via npcs, etc." ... no, it's simpler than that. Special orders and item submissions take away a vital part of the game. Zalanthas is a harsh, desert environment with little in the way of resources, right? We all know this. Special orders take away this vital part of the game (i.e. finding/securing resources) and places it into an OOC construct. What do I mean?

Let's say you're playing a noble. As a noble, you feel it is your duty to have a badass hat. You want the coolest hat ever. You want it to be made of silk, and be gold, and have a goddamn vestric feather in it. Your character is OBSESSED with this hat.

Under the old system your noble can talk to a Kadian merchant about this awesome hat idea. Then you would write up your awesome hat and send it in. Boom! Awesome hat! Amount of roleplay? VERY LITTLE.

Under the current system, well golly... you have to FIND YOUR AWESOME HAT! (btw - the feathered hat example was totally random and I just did a quick search for a hat of such variety in the gameworld - and no surprise, several already exist.) You have to seek out resources. You have to interact with PCs. You can hire people to go to tribal villages and strange netherworlds to find this awesome hat. Experienced rangers or other travelers can peddle their ability to wander the world and find stuff. It's great for everyone! And since staff members aren't fielding 75 e-mails a day (per staff members) regarding new, dubiously useful game submissions, they might even be there to play that tribal NPC whose mother has THAT VERY HAT YOU SO DESIRE.

Has there been a shift toward content? Yes. Not only yes, GOOD LORD YES. Is this bad? No, not really. But we want to shift back to roleplay. We're not saying "fuck you, players. Take your hard work and enthusiasm for helping the game and shove it!" ... we're saying, "you know, players... instead of sending us so many useful submissions, why don't you play the game and have fun. Don't worry about the database, or new items... don't run to e-mail every time your character needs something. Just play. And have fun."

I guess this means no 'a darkly tinted pair of quartz sunglasses' huh?

Quote from: "Anonymous"I guess this means no 'a darkly tinted pair of quartz sunglasses' huh?

You're not by any chance playing a character named "Neo" who already sports a black trenchcoat, are you? :P (Joke)

I like the thought process behind these changes.  These changes don't bother me at all.

Not to be cynical, however, but I don't think putting the clamps down on the things listed will have a positive effect on roleplay.  The logic here implies that if people have fewer alternatives they will roleplay.  The correlation between custom orders, description changes and lowered roleplay seems tenuous at best.  Someone interested in roleplaying will do so regardless of whether there are more custom items, clans, etc in the game, if you ask me.

Still, I have to admit that seeing these changes is encouraging in it's own right.

I'm going to send my lackies to find my the pimpin'est hat! Oh yeah!

I'd hope that newbies might be allowed a little something :)   I've been working on skill XXXXX  and found a few things that I think are problems and might need work on..

 Now I'm not saying that staff should jump on my suggestions.. but a fresh pair of eyes and all that.


Oh and BTW how do you know if your a master at a skill?

Quote from: "HardCarbon"I'd hope that newbies might be allowed a little something :)   I've been working on skill XXXXX  and found a few things that I think are problems and might need work on..

 Now I'm not saying that staff should jump on my suggestions.. but a fresh pair of eyes and all that.

You're still welcomed (encouraged, even) to report any bugs, typos, or ideas with existing items.  How do you do this?  Suppose you have a pair of black silk pants, and there's something wrong with it.  Here's some options:

>bug pants These pants are only wearable on the "waist" location, they should be wearable on the legs.

>typo pants On the third line of the description, these pants say they are made from "balck" silk.  Should say "black."

>idea pants These pants should be sold in Tuluk as well as in Allanak.

For implementing new content, email MUD and ask if the submission would be welcomed and if an imm could sponsor it.

Quote from: "Sanvean"

QuoteAll I expect, is that after this...the immortals better be a -lot- more visible in working with their clans and the game world.

Or what?  Will you call the Better MUD Bureau on us?  Perhaps you could demand your money back.  I find the arrogance and egotism in a statement like this one of the best arguments for this policy.  We don't sit around thinking of ways to screw the players over, or enhance our characters, or god knows what else.  We spent a lot of time thinking and discussing the matter, it's based on a lot of factors that we can see and a few that players may be able to, and assuming that we're doing it for some nebulous benefit to ourselves and giving us an ultimatum that you'd better see a result because you're entitled to a certain amount of work from the staff is a little on the fucked up side.  Seriously.

Haha! Don't worry, whomever Sanvean quoted, many people think essentially the same thing. And it amuses me to hear her accuse someone else of arrogance and egotism, but I digress. Maybe not -exactly- what you posted, but I would say I hope the imms are putting all of their new time to good use, rather than say going on mudsex marathons or giving karma for good emoting in mudsex marathons etc.

I know recently, one imm took the time to mud mail me about my playing. This has never happened in my scant 3 years of playing, so I am suitably impressed. Thank you imm, I don't remember the name and I picked read and delete from mud menu on accident. I don't give a crap about special items, but the lack of support for new clans and such is bothersome. What about the old 'You can become anything' part? But as it stands, maybe it is a good thing.  I personally have seen more interaction.

I would just like to say that reading player responses to this thread has only helped to fuel my deep, violent loathing of mud players in general.  

*logs on anyways*

*cries himself to sleep*

I assure you, already the changes brought on by this policy have been noted. Why, the extra free time alone has led to such productive exchanges as the following:

Daigon: Sanura, you happen to know offhand who's handling Byn atm?
Sanura: Savak and...uh...
Sanura: That's all I know...and NO FURTHER EFFORTS WILL GET ME TO TALK.
Daigon: You will submit, under torture
Sanura: Negative. The new policy says there is a LIMIT ON SUBMISSION.
Daigon: Hm. Excellent point.
Daigon: I will have to devise tortures only according to the CURRENT PROJECTS BLOG. Hah.
Sanura: DAMNIT

...but seriously, this is a huge relief. I understand how it initially seems to be limiting freedom, but let me reiterate what others have said in that the item database is UNBELIEVABLY MASSIVE.

As a side note, this is part of what makes crafting submissions take so long. Want to make a new kind of arrow? Okay. To be consistent, make a copy of the item for each different kind of arrowhead that's currently craftable. Then, make a version of each of those for each of the different colors of feathers people are likely to use in fletching. Oh, and if there are multiple arrowshaft types? Well...factor that in, too.

Yes, that's a unique crafting recipe and a unique item for each. You can see how this quickly becomes absolutely insane, even for something as simple as an arrow.

The other issue, which has also been mentioned, is that the staff is in a better position to gauge what's appropriate in the world and what's not. Yes, we could just say "no" to every submission that comes in that's somehow off; however, from my experience, we generally try to adapt it to be appropriate while maintaining the spirit of the submission as much as possible. There's some more time. Besides that, believe it or not, most of us genuinely DON'T like saying "no" to players. We were all players once (with the exception of Halaster, who was grown in a vat and prodded with sticks for most of his formative years), and we know how that feels. So instead, now we simply have the ability to focus player efforts more on specific areas (the "current projects" blog). Not only does this prevent us from getting foot-long sub sandwiches and M1 Abrams tanks floating around the game, but it helps us to flesh out areas that desperately do need more work instead of expanding upon areas that are already overflowing with unused content.

Lastly, plot stuff, especially with complex or long-running plots, is a -massive- investment of time and energy. That's not a complaint; personally, plots are my favorite thing to do. Big plots, small plots, burial plots...they all add a lot more to the atmosphere of the game, in my opinion, than yet another variation on "an obsidian longsword". Will you immediately notice a difference? Probably not. Will it be an improvement overall? I think so. Will I continue to answer my own questions? Undoubtedly.

If -all- of those explanations fail to satisfy you, however, simply reflect on how the staff is a capricious lot which, like the gods of Greek myth, often make decisions that are incomprehensible to mortal man and spend unreasonable amounts of time engaged in questionable activities disguised as swans, beams of light, etc.

I'd personally LOVE (I MEAN LOVE) to have the merchant guild get the ability to 'restring' items at a certain cost.  It would enable them to add a sentence or two to the end of the description of an item.

For instance, "An obsidian dagger"

A single piece of obsidian was meticulously chipped and flaked until a
razor sharp blade was formed along either side of its length, blades which
narrow to a fine point at the end. The handle has been wrapped with a
length of dark-stained leather cord.


A merchant with sufficient skill could add something to this however.

A single piece of obsidian was meticulously chipped and flaked until a
razor sharp blade was formed along either side of its length, blades which
narrow to a fine point at the end. The handle has been wrapped with a
length of dark-stained leather cord.  Branded into the dark-leather cord
is an image of a serpent coiling its way along the handle.

All such "additions" should be logged in the game, for one imm to just look over from time to time to make sure people aren't being 'twinkish' with this strictly cosmetic ability.

Wizturbo: I like it, but how possible would that be code-wise? If an object in the database has a certain description, would restringing it screw with all the other loaded instances of it? I will admit I know little to nothing about code, but it seems potentially tricky.

Sanura: I humbly request that you post more often.

2) No more special orders
Too much time and effort are put into special orders, both on an ic and an ooc level.  I think taking this way would be a great thing.

3) Master crafters
I'm a bit confused, would items crafted by master crafters be unique to that pc or would it be generally craftable?
Also, I think it would be helpful if the staff clarifed if subguild skills have sufficiently high maximums to be considered 'master' crafters.

5) No new clans will be opened (or re-opened).
A 3 month ban might be alright, but I can't see how this would be a good thing in the long run.  The next Thrain Ironsword would be SOL.  Maybe raising the bar for PC run clans instead (I don't know what the bar is now, so it might be a moot point).

6) You may request a total of two description changes for a character over the course of her or his lifetime.

I think once per 6 months would be fairer.  Long lived pcs can run through their 2 chances quick.

And I don't think scars and caste tattooes should count, since as I recall all that's required is teleporting the pc to the dispenser npc.  I can understand this for desc changes, since it's almost like approving a new character.

I think the changes as a whole are good.  More plots, less items.

QuoteMaybe not -exactly- what you posted, but I would say I hope the imms are putting all of their new time to good use, rather than say going on mudsex marathons or giving karma for good emoting in mudsex marathons etc.

You are like, so not even considering the hoochies! We gotta earn karma too ya know?! Think of who makes all those ugly bynners and human lubbin' elves happy!   :cry:

This might mean something if you had posted it on the GDB.  Instead it
means less than nothing, it isn't much more than a continued slam and
insult of what you've been posting.  It shows that you're more than
willing to talk thrash about us in public but then quickly apologize in
private in case something should come of what you've said to other people.  
Or people see you exhibiting second thoughts about the hard line you've
been taking.

Just voicing your opinion? You were making a lot of uninformed statements
as though they were established fact, accusing the staff of lying, being
lazy, and having some hidden agenda against the players.  Multiple staff
members replied to your posts asking what you thought we were lying about,
what you thought our hidden agenda was, and so on.  You replied to none of
them.

God forbid you get off your high horse for one second and talk about this
rationally with the people who have dumped almost a month into thinking
carefully about what was going to be done.  It would have killed you to
spend 30min thinking about what was posted and re-reading before posting
your concerns.  Instead you made statements that were either in direct
conflict with the posted policy changes or wild assumptions about things
you have absolutely zero knowledge of.

You don't have to apologize for being the voice of opposition because
that's not what you are.  You're the voice of knee-jerk reactions to
policy changes that you haven't taken the time to consider or understand.

Fuck me? Fuck you.
-Nessalin

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Tim Weber wrote:

> Greetings:
>
> To anyone that reads this, I just wanted to apologize for the way my posts
> sounded, in regards to the policy change.  It's not that I want to continue
> to have uber-leet gear.  It's just that I -have- seen -awesome- instances,
> in game, that came as a result of special items being made.
>
> Combine that with the fact that I, in my first-ever real leadership position, had some
> grand plans to improve and perhaps create a group and that I now will be completely unable to
> make some of the items that assist the role-play in that group, as well as
> work to set that group apart from any others within the clan or those
> without the clan, and I was -entirely- too frustrated that this change came
> -right now-.  As Xygax said, the belligerent sound of my posts came from
> frustration.
>
> The ending ones, talking about how I wanted to see how things ended up...I'm
> sorry.  I know it's probably untrue, but when I see posts saying that there
> were 'too many' emails in their inbox about special items, etc, and about
> how this is going to 'free up time', I just get the idea that you -gave up-
> on doing all the submissions.  It wasn't fun anymore, and you just wanted to
> do away with it.  That's still how I feel, even though I still know it isn't
> true.  It's just...me being frustrated, I suppose.
>
> So to any who thought I was trying to be a rebellious Delerak who argued
> with imms just to be a thorn in the side of authority, I'm sorry.  I was
> just voicing my opinion that this -is- going to take away from the game.  
> Maybe not on a huge level, but in a level that will be more and more
> noticeable as time goes on.
>
> I've not asked for special items for myself in a -long- time.  They've
> always been in order to either further a clan, represent something that will
> affect role-play, or to make my character a distinctive one in a common
> role.  My main example will be rangers.  Sure, a lot of them wear desert
> camo.  I'd be just another ranger wearing camo...but then I'd request a
> special item of a ragged, frayed desert cloak to show my character is not
> from a wealthy background, cares little for shnazzy looks, etc, but he
> -still- represents a desert-based character.  You see the sort of approach
> I'm coming from?
>
> Once again.  Sorry for being the voice of opposition to a thought-out
> decision.
>
> Tim Weber/Armaddict

As per the above post.  I apologize.

And now that i've read most of the thread here is the "Wizturbo" response on the policy changes:

Quote1) When submitting items/NPCs/echos/descriptions, we ask that you only submit things for the projects listed in our Current Projects blog, located at: http://www.zalanthas.org/blogs/current/ This includes crafting submissions, with the sole exception of items covered in number 3 below. Be aware that it may take up to a month for the submissions to be built. This page will be swapped in for the other projects page.

Seems fine to me.  Keeps things organizes.  I just don't want potential RP to be restricted by this.  An example could be if some super wealthy independent merchant who NEEDS a bodyguard wants to hire some byn mercenaries on a year-long contract to act as body guards, he shouldn't be told no because the policy says no new NPCs.  Just give him generic NPC bodyguards, like "a veteran mercenary" or "a rugged mercenary"  or whatever, but don't leave him to "virtual" bodyguards because of policy.

Quote2) No more special orders of any type through merchants. You can request something and if it is already in the database, it may be possible to get it. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months. If you have a special order currently placed with a merchant, it will be delivered, but no new orders can be placed.

Amen.  I just hope that plot-driven special requested items aren't shot down by this policy.  If someone needs a severed human baby head, to send to their enemy in a basket after kidnapping their virtual children, they shouldn't be told no because of this policy.

Quote3) Master crafters can, if their skill is sufficiently high, create one special item for that skill. You may submit only one TOTAL of these special items per month. They should be sent to mud@armageddon.org; please confirm that your skill is sufficiently high in that area before submitting the item, which must include a crafting recipe for the item (which can be restricted by clan). Be aware that it may take up to a month for the crafting array to be implemented.

Love it.  Though as I recommended, having some coded method of slightly altering or adding onto the ldesc of an item for the merchant guild would be wonderful.  Adding a simple sentence at the end of a description can REALLY solve a lot of problems, and free up tons of time for staff.  Add a red stripe on a generic patch, and nows its a "Ruby squad" patch.  The examples are endless.

Quote5) No new clans will be opened (or re-opened). This includes staff and player-driven clans, as well as currently closed clans. This is true unilaterally; no exceptions will be made. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months.

I don't like this being so firmly NO EXCEPTIONS MADE policy.  If a PC-lead clan survives for a long time, and flourishes, why shouldn't they receive immortal support?  If a player has a really good idea and gets it started on their own, then asks for some coded support, whats the harm? Staff can always just say no, but if one or more of the staff is willing to help I don't think policy should restrict them from doing so.  This rule also basically tells people "Don't try and start your own organizations, they can never get too far off the ground."

I'd rather this policy was restated, that new clans need to show a long standing history of success in order to receive immortal support.

Quote6) You may request a total of two description changes for a character over the course of her or his lifetime. This includes but is not limited to requests for scars, tattoos, haircuts, etc. We are currently looking at better ways to allow players to administer their own scars. In the occasion where a description change is merited or imposed through the intervention of a plotline, these will not count against the total. We'll re-examine this policy at the end of three months.

I'd prefer to see this changed to one for ever 10 played days on your character.  Its not fair that a 100-days played character only gets 2, whereas a player who has 20 characters in that time frame gets 40.  One every 10 days played is long enough that people won't change their descriptions on a whim, but not so long that players can't show the change in their characters appearance over time.

QuoteAmen. I just hope that plot-driven special requested items aren't shot down by this policy. If someone needs a severed human baby head, to send to their enemy in a basket after kidnapping their virtual children, they shouldn't be told no because of this policy.

What merchant were you planning to custom order that from? I'm not sure which house specializes in child decapitation these days, but it sure would be helpful to know.

While your post was amusing, in case you really don't understand, I'll try to explain, GA.

Let's say, for example, situations come up in which some nameless vengeful people are diabolical enough to wish certain body parts of certain dead people to be made into distinct types of objects. It has happened in the past, and that would be more of a plot-driven thing, so yes, I hope it would be ok'd if it should come up in the future.

Quote from: "wizturbo the wise"I'd prefer to see this changed to one for ever 10 played days on your character. Its not fair that a 100-days played character only gets 2, whereas a player who has 20 characters in that time frame gets 40. One every 10 days played is long enough that people won't change their descriptions on a whim, but not so long that players can't show the change in their characters appearance over time.

Agreed with the spirit of this, though I would change it to a RL timeframe, as one player might log 10 days of playtime in a few weeks, while another might log 10 days in a month. A long-lived character can feasibly go through four major stages of life - pre-adolescent form, adolescent, adult, and elderly. Now the characters that actually survive all of those life stages are going to be rare at best, but all the same, I would much prefer seeing description changes limited by a "once per # months" deal.

QuoteNo more special orders of any type through merchants.

Given that such an object would have to come directly via immortal intervention, rather than specially requested  through a merchant house, I would say so.

QuoteAgreed with the spirit of this, though I would change it to a RL timeframe, as one player might log 10 days of playtime in a few weeks, while another might log 10 days in a month. A long-lived character can feasibly go through four major stages of life - pre-adolescent form, adolescent, adult, and elderly. Now the characters that actually survive all of those life stages are going to be rare at best, but all the same, I would much prefer seeing description changes limited by a "once per # months" deal.

1.  Played days is a statistic easily obtainable by the staff.

2.  A character who plays 3 weeks and gets 10 played days, is just as likely to need a description change as someone who played 10 days in 3 months.  Why?  They've had the same amount of "action".  Sure, age is one reason to change your description, but changing it because you left a city and are in disguise, or describing yourself as having lost a lot of weight to your spice addiction is just as valid a reason.

QuoteWhat merchant were you planning to custom order that from? I'm not sure which house specializes in child decapitation these days, but it sure would be helpful to know.

I actually know of one shop.  Believe it or not.

Talk to a guy named...

Nah, when you have many options on what you can make out of a small twig and berry and you almost never fail.

Id say if you think you are pretty good, send an email and ask. Someone could have a look at you and let you know.

Quote from: "da mitey warrior"
A 3 month ban might be alright, but I can't see how this would be a good thing in the long run.  The next Thrain Ironsword would be SOL.  Maybe raising the bar for PC run clans instead (I don't know what the bar is now, so it might be a moot point).

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the entire Ironsword episode was done without the staff ever making special items, mounts, NPCs, or buildings for the Ironsword "clan."

Quote from: "Bakha"I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the entire Ironsword episode was done without the staff ever making special items, mounts, NPCs, or buildings for the Ironsword "clan."

Bakha, what about the time when they placed a siege on Allanak? -- There were tons of dwarven NPCs attacking inside and outside the city.

If I'm not wrong, I also remember that Thrain had a custom halfsword or two... maybe even his armor... but hey, he deserved it :)

IMO, cutting off support for custom items is not a good thing in the long run.  I myself never had a custom item made *I usually steal it* :) but there should be some filters in place that will prevent people from submitting a custom item every other day. I'm sure that it's a big overheard for IMM to create new items every day, especially not multi purpose items that will not even be used after a character dies.

QuoteAmen. I just hope that plot-driven special requested items aren't shot down by this policy. If someone needs a severed human baby head, to send to their enemy in a basket after kidnapping their virtual children, they shouldn't be told no because of this policy.

To continue the analogy along its unholy path, remember to check
first with the staff regarding any similar baby heads they might have.
After all, you might find that the severed baby head on a stick with
bone spikes hammered into its skull is just as appropriate (if not
moreso) for freaking out your enemies than "just another baby's
head" in the database.  Then there is also the triage of baby heads
used as juggling balls in the templar's quarter of Allanak, each with
eyeballs that wobble when you shake them.  And let's not forget the
baby head bola that a Conclaver had made waaaaaay back in the
day for tripping the enemy fandango, and...and...

Ok, I'll stop.

But seriously, though...this is not the first time the staff has placed
limitations on custom items.  The game didn't end back then, it
won't now.  So a few templars and nobles can't harrangue a Kadian
pc and his/her imm for items just for them.  So we might have to
become more familiar with the items already in our database.  This
can only help.

Besides, this is Zalanthas we play in; adapt or die.

Intrepid.

P.S.: I'm afraid I'm probably the person who caused the "no new
clans" rule to go into effect.  *ducks rotten tomatoes and corpses*

About Guilds... No new clans, okay... but IMO it's boring if the same clan remains active for years and years and years... let me focus for a moment on the Labyrinth... there are several elven clans out there, why don't let one family at a time take control over one side of the rinth, have struggle for power... the feeling I get there is that everything is static... no shifting of power..... and the Guild has been out there for too long, that's my opinion... I don't think it should die, but just evolve, maybe even change its name... merge with another larger gang, I don't know... something... it's too static. Bottom line.... if you don't want new clans, at least let the current ones evolve. :)

Quote from: "TripleX"About Guilds... No new clans, okay... but IMO it's boring if the same clan remains active for years and years and years... let me focus for a moment on the Labyrinth... there are several elven clans out there, why don't let one family at a time take control over one side of the rinth, have struggle for power... the feeling I get there is that everything is static... no shifting of power..... and the Guild has been out there for too long, that's my opinion... I don't think it should die, but just evolve, maybe even change its name... merge with another larger gang, I don't know... something... it's too static. Bottom line.... if you don't want new clans, at least let the current ones evolve.

Werd.

Quote from: "TripleX"
Bakha, what about the time when they placed a siege on Allanak? -- There were tons of dwarven NPCs attacking inside and outside the city.

If I'm not wrong, I also remember that Thrain had a custom halfsword or two... maybe even his armor... but hey, he deserved it :)

You're right, of course, about the siege. I should have qualified what I said better. Thrain and the Ironswords became an ingame, IC powerhouse without ever using staff help (that I know of). Once they became that worldshaking powerhouse, then the staff helped out.

I could be wrong, but I think that Thrain's player has made numerous posts on the GDB giving his philosophy on feeding and watering clans as a player. While I know that emailing the staff, notifying them of his intentions, was always part of his advice, I don't think that asking the staff for items, NPCs, buildings, etc. was.

I guess my whole point is that it's very possible to form player-run groups that play together, have fun together, get involved in plots together, without getting real, coded, staff support.

Quote from: "TripleX"Bottom line.... if you don't want new clans, at least let the current ones evolve. :)

This is a really good point, and something that was brought up during the lengthy period of discussion revolving all of these changes. In the future it would be really nice to have natural fluctuations of power, and mergers, and even the occasional death of a political organization. So while you might not see this tomorrow, it is definitely an idea which is seeded within the collective staff mind.

There is no mistaking that a lot of effort and thought went into this policy change.  

Seeker notes:

I also agree that PC description changes (both mdesc and keyword desc.) would probably be better attached to some standard other than "the life of the character."  Once every x/months, or every x days played.  Either has merit.

Some clarification on the Mastercraftsmen status might help also.  I read it as a circular statement:
 How do I know I am skilled enough to considered a Mastercraftsman?
 You are a Mastercraftsman when you are suitably skilled.

Allowing PCs assigned to the role of Merchant/Agent by the Great Merchant Houses to have some access to the list of goods sold by that House is a good idea.

I am decidedly less likely to send in ideas or concepts to the IMMs that I believe might be useful or interesting, because I perceive it more now as a burden and unwelcome than I would have been a few weeks ago.


Seeker

Quote from: "Seeker"
Some clarification on the Mastercraftsmen status might help also.  I read it as a circular statement:
 How do I know I am skilled enough to considered a Mastercraftsman?
 You are a Mastercraftsman when you are suitably skilled.

What do you want them to say?  When your skill is greater then 80?  They have said that if you are in question regarding if you are a master crafter or not, just e-mail the MUD.  Personally, I think common sense should be a pretty good judge.  If you can make really fancy and cool stuff that sells for a pile of 'sid, chances are you are a master crafter.  If you still are banging out twenty stone incense burns a day still to sell at break even, you probably are not there yet.

I think the people that are bitching need to just shut the fuck up and try it out for a month.

Quote from: "Rindan"What do you want them to say?

Your common sense, or my common sense, is clearly not the best judge to answer this question, unless you have more information than you are sharing with your post.

Each and every character writing to the Mud account, checking on a periodic basis, asking for an evaluation of any and all of their crafting skills against an invisible standard is probably not what the staff had in mind.

Seeker

I hope this encourages some people to try (or retry) some merchant characters and/or get involved with clans.  I think then we'd have some valuable information as to if these ideas will work at the end of three months.

I don't like all the changes, but I see it as a "we're completely inundated at the moment, let's slam on the breaks and then ease off in 3 months time once we know how much we can ease off by. If we find we haven't eased off enough in 3 months time, we can gradually ease off a bit more."

The one thing I really like is this

Quote3) Master crafters can, if their skill is sufficiently high, create one special item for that skill. You may submit only one TOTAL of these special items per month. They should be sent to mud@armageddon.org; please confirm that your skill is sufficiently high in that area before submitting the item, which must include a crafting recipe for the item (which can be restricted by clan). Be aware that it may take up to a month for the crafting array to be implemented.

I think we'll find THAT to add more depth to the existing items then the current system. After all, if I tried to submit an item for sewing, I'm likely to create an item #11 of the black pants. By making me become a "master crafter" it means I know what most of the items in a certain skill are. So I can make item #1 instead of item #11. It will also help make items more craftable. "Well I haven't submitted an item this month, but I really want to be able to craft item X but it doesn't have a recipe. No Imms are working on it so I might as well submit a recipe." It'll also help make the Merchant Houses want -quality- crafters. If they can only hire 3 crafters at one time (just a made up example) then they're more likely to hire 3 master crafters then 3 newbies. This is IC.

Also, looking at the current projects I see 4 item related projects asking for stuff where this is a lack of it. I think this is much better then everyone taking up the staff's time on 20 black silk pants.

I just have to say that as the immortal for two clans and for the unclanned, I've had my fair share of requests for objects that aren't really needed.  A LOT of what people want can be resolved through roleplay, and those that can't, are usually all close enough to something already in the game's database.

I really don't see why people have a problem with custom items.  We will still take it upon outselves to make any items/NPCs important to plots.  We just don't want the unsolicited, self-aggrandazing items that most seem to want.  This game is about the roleplay.  Let the roleplay determine what items are needed, not the items determine the roleplay.

kthxbye

QuoteOver the last month, the staff has been discussing what they perceive as a problem: an increasing emphasis on content, and a corresponding decrease in emphasis on roleplay.

Instead of focusing on the inconsequential restrictions, you may desire to turn your attention to the end of Sanvean's message:

Quotea corresponding decrease in emphasis on roleplay.

A real shame. Repent for your sins or forever burn ....

Quote from: "Seeker"
I am decidedly less likely to send in ideas or concepts to the IMMs that I believe might be useful or interesting, because I perceive it more now as a burden and unwelcome than I would have been a few weeks ago.

What seeker just said is how I feel as well.  That sending in concepts or ideas is unwelcomed and a burden, rather then a step towards improving the game.

It just seems that the 'spirit' of the policy change is "Players, shut the fuck up and stop nagging us with your ideas so we can do the stuff we have planned."  I understand that entirely and personally wouldn't be offended by this attitude if it was temporary.  I know the frustrating feeling that comes about when your trying to do something, but no one will give you five minutes without being nagged to do something else.

My only concern is this...

There are SOME players, who do enormous amounts for the mud, probably as much if not more then some immortals.  They submit dozens of great and useful items that expand roleplay (opposed to custom items meant just for their PC).  They develop intriguing plots, and do a lot of what makes the game great.  I just don't want these policies to hamstring those players, or tie the hands of immortals that might be willing to help support their plots.

Quote from: "wizturbo"I understand that entirely and personally wouldn't be offended by this attitude if it was temporary, but what concerns me is this...

Uh, pretty sure this is only for three months, and then they reevaulate.

Please, please, please do not feel like those contributions are a burden. The game is, in many ways, a collaborative effort between the staff and the players. Really, if nothing else, my hope is that these policy changes help to put a number of aspects of the game in perspective.

If you have an idea or a concept, great. Feel free to email someone appropriate about it, saying, "Hey, I noticed this gap, and I was thinking..." Or, you know, there's also always the "idea" command. Just don't go ahead and email 30 pages of new silk lingerie from Kadius's "Naughty Tregil" line before a staff member has expressed interest in it. Secondly, please don't be offended if they say "no". The staff, being the all-powerful, all-seeing, offspring-devouring entities that we are, is in a better position to judge A: What's appropriate to the game world; and B: What's -really- lacking. One of the great -strengths- of Armageddon is that the world is SO huge and SO varied that any one person is likely to only see a tiny part of it. The down side of that, however, is that it can easily lead to the perception of there being a lack where one does not actually exist. The current projects blog allows us to clarify what's needed and focus those delicious creative energies in a productive and less redundant direction.

Please understand. This policy is not about restricting plots. It is not about hamstringing players. What we want to cut down on is, "So, I'm in Tor, and I know we already have a scorpion-emblazoned sword, but what I REALLY want is a scorpion-carved scorpion tail sword in the shape of a giant scorpion with scorpions carved in it and the words 'BIG FRICKIN' SCORPION' written on it in tatlum". Addition of content is great, when it serves a purpose. Addition of content for the sake of addition of content is roughly akin to watering down beer. Sure, there's MORE of it, but the overall experience is considerably less focused.

To sum up: Player contributions good! Content for content's sake bad! Value judgements good! Verbs bad!

More on this story as it develops.

I am a sitting testament to the idea that the staff's precious time can be wasted with unnecessary submissions, and I think I'm seeing how these policy tryouts will be good for us. I've started small pc-run clans that got tons of imm support, and ended up collapsing because I lost interest. I've traded emails with a staff member to get one very specific object created, for one very short and very inconsequential event, and then (HAHAHA!) never used it. Right before this announcement, I tried to get a special order put through for an item that I wanted to be mostly unique to my pc just because I thought it'd be 'cool'. The icing is that I didn't want it craftable becuase none of you chuckleheads should have one.

All of these things are very very bad, and you should never ever do them. I'm glad the foot has been put down, so that people like me will have to find new ways of wasting our clan imm's time. Of course there are some situations that won't work with these new rules, if they end up being permanent policy. However, I think the upper staff has made it pretty clear that the things we call 'exceptions' will be treated with a fair approach, because almost all of our rules are just that flexible.

Sanura:

Thanks.  I had a feeling that for many of us this policy change will feel just like status quo, and i'm glad you said what you said to confirm this hope.

I spent quite a bit of time in a merchant clan, and I know ALL about someone wanting one of those swords with just a minor variation on something that already exists and how frustrating it was...and how much I wanted to take that custom sword and.....you get the idea.

So long as these policy changes are flexible enough to allow exceptions when exceptions are due, i'm perfectly content.

People seem concerned about the no new clans thing, but I'd always assumed it would take way more than 3 months for a PC group to get semi-official Clan status with their own private face paint, tattoos or other clan items.  So I don't think this will be a huge change.  If the staff decides to extend the 3 month moritorium that could be dicey, but I think I see a  potential backdoor, a way to "trick" them into it: be interesting.

Freed from some of the backlog, some staffers will have more time for watching what PCs are doing and interacting with them through NPCs and environmental echos.  So if an interesting person recruits some other interesting people, and they run around doing interesting things, then chances are that some imms are going to notice.  Watching an interesting group of people doing interesting things has got to be more fun than watching Generic Hunter Who Dislikes Solo-Emoting #139, right?  Now if this interesting group manages to stay alive and vibrant for a couple months, continuing to do interesting things and not turning into a one-trick-pony, then there is a chance that some staffer will think "Hey, these guys are cool.  I wish I was their imm," and then maybe s/he decides to make them one of hir special projects and volunteers to sponser them without any of the players ever petitioning the MUD for clan sponsership.

Or maybe not.  But being interesting is its own reward, so it certainly won't _hurt_ to be interesting.  ;)

* * *

As for items, maybe more of the unused items could find their way into circulation without requests?  The idea of a sort of "catalog" on the website was shot down years ago, so there is really no way for players to know if a pair of gold pantaloons already exists or not.  
Right now I'd have to track down a Kadian merchant PC, ask "would it be possible for a pair of gold pantaloons to be made for me?"  And the Kadian would say, "Gold pantaloons?  Hmm, I'd have to check with our tailors about that.  It'll be pricy though."  Then the Kadian would write to his imm, the imm would look through the database and get back to the Kadian, then me and the Kadian would have to link up again for him to tell me "no" or "yes, and it will cost 12000 sids" and then I decide if I want his over-priced pantaloons or not, if I go ahead then he sends another email to his imm who loads up the pantaloons after a suitable delay, and then, if neither of us has died, the Kadian tracks me down to sell me the much-anticipated pantaloons.  Talk about your run-on sentances.  And that is just the best case senario!  If there was a mis-communication somewhere along the line about what was wanted, or an email got lost in the bowels of the internet, or the particular Kadian I was dealing with dies or retires without telling another Kadian what I ordered, or the imm in charge of the order has a real life crisis, or . . . well, a lot of things can go wrong.  I once had a Tuluki character that wanted a pen (at a time when there were no pen-selling shops in that city) and it took me months and several (at least 3) merchants to get a stupid pen, I was itching to just hire a band of mercenaries to go down to Allanak and buy me one from the shop there, but that seemed kind of absurd -- there are plenty of feathers in the north, how hard could it be to turn one into a pen?  My point is that sometimes a bunch of things can go wrong that keep even a non-unique item from being available in a timely manner.


So my idea is to have shops load some unusual items more often.  Not necessarily fancy or expensive items, just things that are not seen much, and just one or two of each.  That would take care of the idea that if it is unique it must be a quest item.  Having clan imms load up a few extra items on imm day seems viable, but then people will only go shopping on Saturday night, the "extra" items would probably only be available in Big Three shops, and it would be one more dull task for Big Three imms.

A more flexible solution might be a  generic wandering merchant type NPC, who could live in imm land most of the time.  I suggest the name "Lootie McLooterson."  :D  When some imm was bored they could load up some under-used items and give them to Lootie, then posess him and send him to a city.  He would wander around the bazaar, selling his items to random NPC merchants for 1 sid.

>offer pantaloons 1
>offer sword 1
>offer goggles 1
... and so on.

That way he wouldn't strip the NPC merchants of all their cash, he would basically be an OOC device to get unusual items into random shops at random times, not a "realistic" type character.  They would then try to sell the item based on it's value and their usual markup.

More items in circulation, so even if you don't want to buy it now you know that it is available in the database = good.  Having the items appear in all shops (both large and small) and at any time would prevent Saturday Reboot Stampedes to find the new items.  You wouldn't need to worry too much about markings, because even if it was originally made by Salaar in the north, it could easily have gotten into an independant's inventory in the south via a travelling merchant or luckless adventurer.  I like it.


Angela Christine

Two questions left.

First is, in general, will subclass gained crafting skills be able to go high enough to gain master crafter status.  My gut feeling would be no, for a few different reasons.  Whether this question should be answered even is debatable I guess, but it would be nice to have people avoid a nasty shock later if they are told their skill in beer_brewing will never be "naturally" high enough for them to be a master crafter, without immortal intervention.

Second question is, do these policies apply to component making?  Given previous interaction I've had in this area, I am guessing no?  Clarity from the beginning is always good.

I just want to know about my year+ played PC who has already had a line removed from his main desc and a word changed in his sdesc.  Assuming those are marked down on my character somewhere, when my PC gets to be old and frail will it seem like I am trying to go around the rules if I want to submit a desc change that reflects that he is no longer a sturdy fellow?

Someone mentioned the idea of two desc changes a year, and I think I like that and hope it is considered if it wasn't already.

Regardless I think desc changes should not be allowed for the first 6 months of a PC's life, especially if players are provided a way to get their own scars.

Quote from: "Angela Christine"Watching an interesting group of people doing interesting things has got to be more fun than watching Generic Hunter Who Dislikes Solo-Emoting #139, right?

Preach it, sister.

I like your ideas for loading items randomly onto shopkeepers...that's something to consider.

Quote from: "Twilight"
First is, in general, will subclass gained crafting skills be able to go high enough to gain master crafter status.  My gut feeling would be no, for a few different reasons.  Whether this question should be answered even is debatable I guess, but it would be nice to have people avoid a nasty shock later if they are told their skill in beer_brewing will never be "naturally" high enough for them to be a master crafter, without immortal intervention.

In most cases, no.  Subguilds are designed to be additional skills that you may have learned before starting the character.  They're not your main gig.  If you want your main gig to be crafting, you'll have to play those guilds that get crafting skills "naturally".  

Quote from: "Twilight"
Second question is, do these policies apply to component making?  Given previous interaction I've had in this area, I am guessing no?  Clarity from the beginning is always good.

Do you mean, if you've mastered component making, can you submit new items for it?  I don't see why not, but I could be wrong.  Sanvean?

QuoteIf you want your main gig to be crafting, you'll have to play those guilds that get crafting skills "naturally".

Which guilds would those be?

I'm guessing merchant..

QuoteI'm guessing merchant.

Is merchant the only one though?

Yes, unless you're talking about a crafting skill that merchants don't get.

There are some magickal crafting skills, which are reserved for magicky types.  Everything else is merchant.

If you are a magicky type who has confirmed that they are a Master Crafter in one of those skills, I don't see a problem with creating it.  I would expect it to be roleplayed out, and for the ease of obtaining the specific ingredients to affect the power of the item.

The best ways to confirm that you are or aren't a Master Crafter in a particular skill:

1) Put something in your objective like "Want to see if I have reached MasterCrafter basketweaving".
2) Check with your clan immortal.
3) Email the account.

Is it too much to suggest that if this mastercrafting policy stays after the three months, then we consider putting some special kind of marker on a pc's skill list indicating to the player what crafting skills are high enough? I can already picture the mud's inbox filled with just as many skill rating requests as it was with new item submissions before the change, since the answer 'no' will only spur more frequent emails. If you're going to tell us yes or no anyway, why not save some time and trouble and just hardcode the answer right into the skill command?

I totally agree with House's post..I'd also like to see it documented in the main docs somewhere..that IF there are any skills that you can get mastery of by picking a subguild, then that subguild will have some kind of notation telling the players this. And not just hinting; but specifying clearly. Something like....

Armorcrafting*

*There is at least one skill in this subguild which you can attain mastery of.

There are no skills that you can get mastery of by picking a subguild.

Subguild skills can never rise to the level of what we call mastery.  As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, master craftsmen (other than magicky types) are members of the merchant guild, and none other.

I would like to suggest that instead of having to gain X skillpoints in order to submit a given crafting item, the amount of skill needed is made dependant on the item's nature.

Tailors probably don't need to be able to successfully craft full-length gowns nine out of ten times in order to custom-make a 'rinthi tunic for some templar that likes slumming, for instance.
Florists are unlikely to need to become masters of their art in order to dry a petal, thread it with a needle and wear it as a necklace, either.


I believe this will take away a lot of the bad feelings some people have about this particular change, and it simply makes more sense, since it allows us to take the custom orders back from the spam-crafters.
Besides, we aren't supposed to really focus on skill increases. :)
(And forcing every tailor out there to twink out on their clothworking skill for the OOC benefit is not all that good anyway).

I'm not sure I agree with this then..I refrained from comment previously because I wanted to hear more, both from staff and from players.

I know that the merchant guild comes with certain base crafts, and branch to other crafts. I don't know which they come with and which they branch to, so this is a hypothetical coming up:

Merchant Joe wants to become a master weaponsmith. But first, he has to get good at knife-making. He has no interest in knife making, because he intends to specialize in axes and longswords and other "really big" weapons that require a whole different method of creation...learning to whittle a small piece of wood into a knife is not even remotely similar to creating a 3-piece battle-axe, afterall.

Meanwhile, Crafter Jim is a weaponsmith already. It's what he specializes in, it's what he does for a living. According to the docs, it -is- what a weaponsmith does for a living. In those words exactly. "for a living."

Why in the world can't Crafter Jim ever become as good - if not even better - than Merchant Joe, who can't even make a longsword after three weeks of making daggers? Crafter Jim's been making them from the get-go. Crafter Jim can ALSO make daggers, because he's got that knifemaking skill on his list. But he doesn't have to whittle wood for a game-year, just for the privilege of learning how to put an obsidian blade on a mekillot bone. He already has a general idea of how to make axes, because - he's a weaponsmith.

It just seems kind of confusing, that someone with such a huge variety of skills like the Merchant PC would -not- be "jack of all trades, master of none," while the PC who specializes will never be "good enough."

Bestatte:

I don't think there is a problem here.  If your a merchant, and you choose the weaponcrafter subguild, that means your "cap" on weaponmaking skills is the "cap" of a merchant which means you CAN become a master.  If your a ranger weaponcrafter, your "cap" is lower then that of a merchant so the answer would be no.

As a side note:

I STRONGLY believe that character who choose a subguild to be their "profession" in game should still be able to craft new items.  However it should be made very clear through their roleplay that they ARE a certain profession.  A physician comes to mind.  Even if you can only make a new item every 2 months instead of 1 month in that instance, the option should still be available.

For instance, if a ranger chooses "ranger/archer" which is redundent in many of the skills you get to my knowledge, they should be able to craft new bows if they reach their respective "cap" in bowmaking.  The reason for choosing ranger/archer, might be you want to be a master archer yourself, and being able to create custom well designed bows suited to maybe your strength, or a friend's strength, should still be possible.  However I strongly stress, that your MAIN FOCUS in roleplay should be archery and bowmaking as a profession, not just being a ranger who wanted to be able to make their own uber-unique bow in the future so they chose archer subguild.

I'm embarassed to say that I didn't know about the mastery levels
(lack thereof) for subguilds and I've played on this game for years.

It suddenly makes the merchant class seem so much more useful.

I think the help files on the crafting sub-guilds should be rewritten then. Currently they state that people with those sub-guilds "make their living" doing those things. That says to me - that they have chosen something to specialize in..or that the player who picks it has the ability to give their character the background of specializing in the craft.

We are told over and over again - that you don't have to use all the skills on your skills lists. So if I want to make an assassin character because I like the idea of sneaking around and it fits my character's rinthi background, but my character has a gift for making beautiful clothing..

Well I'm shit outta luck, because I will NEVER be good enough to make anything that any merchant who spends hours and hours making baskets all day can't also make.

If I wanna be that good, I'll have to pick Merchant, just like everyone else who wants to be that good in any craft. And now that only masters can submit items, my guess, is that anyone who wants to submit items will be flooding the game with Merchant characters.

As I said previously - it'll be interesting to see.

Let merchant class be much more useful. I totally agree with that. How many merchant d-elves you meet? 0? At least they don't wander where I do. The PC population seems to consisting of hunters, more hunters, warriors, much more warriors and magickers to me. Normally, a healthy populations should have had a good amount of merchants wandering around using the resources and protection of the hunters, warriors and even magickers. There's already something wrong. Let merchants be the master crafters.
And; I sent a mail to the account lately to give up some of my subguild skills in exchange for another skill. The answer was something like: Subguild represents what your character used to do to make a living. Merchants dedicate their all lives to crafting. A ranger stonecarver is someone who used to carve stone, who still does from time to time. But he's a hunter. Period.
.....
By the way, out of curiousity, is merchant class also a potentiol master pickmaker? :)

Using logic, maybe if he was a merchant/thief, hmm?

Hmm, I have to admit that a blanket "You have to be a merchant except for magicky skills" type answer is not what I expected.  There are a couple of specific crafting skills that non-merchant guilds branch into, was my understanding.  I would have thought they they would have been able to be master crafters in those skills as well, eventually.

Actually, I like that people whom just chose subguilds CANT become master crafters. That would be because they are taking it as a secondary skill they use to make a living. Nothing use to bother me more than see someone as a warrior come in and spend a RL week crafting items just to have a person's superior rub it in their merchant's face at how productive Joe Warrior was at making things. To me, those items would be inferior as they only dedicate a 'portion' of their time to learning how to do it.

My sister can make a pretty decent dress but she's no dressmaker. It takes her a lot of time and patience to do that WHEN she's not busy with her other duties in life.  (get where I am going)

If this policy stays in effect then I think that should definitely be part of it. If you want to be the master crafter of doom, then make a merchant whose -whole- life is devoted to it instead of those times one cant go out and hunt, etc.

Just my honest opinion on that part folks :)

Quote from: "Bogre"
Using logic, maybe if he was a merchant/thief, hmm?

Quote from: "Sanvean"
There are no skills that you can get mastery of by picking a subguild.

Ok, I have to ask one more thing...

Does a merchant just get all the crafts, a random number, or does
the player get to choose which crafts are in the mix?

I'm considering making a basic craftsman for my next pc, IF my
current one ever dies.  IF.

Ayashah, the docs are clear:

QuoteStonecrafters make their living collecting and shaping stone, including making adornments from semiprecious and precious stones. They have a sharp eye for the value of such items.

Tailors can create clothing, as well as color the cloths with which they work. Living on the fruits of their labors, they are skilled at driving shrewd bargains.

Weaponscrafters make their living making weapons of various types, including swords, spears, and knives. They are also quick to realize the worth and recognize the craftsmanship of these products.

Now I agree, that this doesn't mean that these characters MUST make their living doing these things. But it definitely does mean that they have the capacity to make their living doing these things. And if they ARE making a living doing these things, doesn't it make sense that they would become much better at these things, than someone who doesn't even start out with those skills on their skills list?

If it doesn't make sense, then the help files need to be reworded, so people coming to the game for the first time won't assume what I and Intrepid assumed: That people who choose a crafting subguild CAN at some point master that craft.

Merchants begin with a set of "basic" crafting skills.  Then as they become accomplished in those crafts, they begin branching new crafts fairly rapidly.  Merchants can also choose a subguild, to receive the crafting skills assosiated with that from the very beginning, making a merchant/crafter subguild combination pretty good.  For all you out there who say why choose the crafter subguild when you'll branch those abilities anyway... *shrugs*  Why choose the linguist subguild when you could learn all those languages on your own?

Twilight, you're right and I'd overlooked some of the others.  Those classes will have the option to create stuff if they're at a sufficiently high level.

As has been discussed several times on here, the subguilds represent what the character was doing before they entered play.  They are not intended to be a substitute character class.

Quote from: "Bestatte"Ayashah, the docs are clear:

QuoteStonecrafters make their living collecting and shaping stone, including making adornments from semiprecious and precious stones. They have a sharp eye for the value of such items.

Tailors can create clothing, as well as color the cloths with which they work. Living on the fruits of their labors, they are skilled at driving shrewd bargains.

Weaponscrafters make their living making weapons of various types, including swords, spears, and knives. They are also quick to realize the worth and recognize the craftsmanship of these products.

Exactly, they make their living doing that. It doesnt say they make UBER DRESSES OF DOOM to make their living. Not everything is perfectly crafted but when someone wants cheap goods, they might go to a second rate, third rate or whatever to get those goods cheap.

*wink*

Quote from: "Sanvean"Twilight, you're right and I'd overlooked some of the others.  Those classes will have the option to create stuff if they're at a sufficiently high level.

Ah well that makes much more sense. I withdraw most of my concerns regarding this issue.

Person A has a regular day job, and on their weekends and time off they do some whittling of wood.  They may be pretty good at it, able to carve small pieces of furniture or create realistic wooden figurines, etc.

Person B's job consists mainly in making things.  They are adept in working all kinds of material, especially wood.  They know how to make all sorts of wooden stuff, from furniture, to weapons and armor, to jewelry, to entire wagons.  They can also bring in skills, ideas, and experience in working with other materials, and creatively incorporate those cross-craft techniques in innovative ways.

Person A may make a lot of really cool wooden stuff.  Person B should eventually be able to make almost anything out of wood.

Idea then:

Person C came from a long line of Kadian clothworkers. That's all they did - make clothing. It's what they did for Kadius, how they got paid, they never had to learn to do much of anything else. Of course, being a brutal world, they also took some lessons in self-defense and combat, because often they would have to bring things to the Kadius shop and need to know how to defend themselves in case they were mugged. A shield - eh. A backstabber would laugh, and there's plenty of those. No, these Kadian clothworkers were smart and learned how to use short blades, which took up less space than shields, so they could carry more of their creations to the shop.

Person C wants to be a clothworker too. She grew up watching her parents and cousins make gorgeous things all day long, and she was blessed with the agility needed to create things herself. And clothworking is her chosen craft, because it's what she knows best, what she grew up with.

She ALSO wants to learn to defend herself, but primarily, she wants to be a clothworker. Not a basketweaver who eventually learns how to sew, not a dagger-maker who eventually learns how to pick up a needle and thread. She has no interest in those things, and no practical experience which would lead her to such tasks. She is majorly into beautiful clothing, and wants to outfit the best of the best, with the best of the best.

So - her player picks the warrior/clothworker guild, picking and choosing skills that will best flesh out her character's desires and background and goals.

The player never read this forum, he's new to the game and new enough to the GDB that he doesn't know all about archiving and looking for threads which may or may not exist. The player only has the help files and documents at his ready disposal. And lo and behold..he finds that there are such people as clothworkers! Not "warriors who make clothing as a hobby" but actual people who might call themselves clothworkers!

And then he starts playing, and wakes up, and finds out it was all a dream.

Please change the help files to reflect that these subguilds are only things that people can do - and that they will NEVER be able to do them very well. The individual subguild help files is what Im talking about.

Guilds are also a measure of TALENT as well as training.  A warrior who cooks all the time, and even gets a job as a cook will still suck because he has no talent.   A merchant who only crafts himself a sandwhich every second ocandra will still be better than the warrior because he has the knack for it.  It's the same deal as a merchant who spends 20 years in the Byn and still gets beat up by newbie warriors.

You can do them very well.  You just can't design new things.  And i'm HIGHLY doubting the staff will say no, if your primary focus of the character revolves around their clothworking.  If you spend 90% of your time involved in clothworking related things, like fitting customers for dresses and talking to customers and making things...then i'm guessing the staff will let you design your own clothes once in a while, but NOT to the same "master" level of a merchant.  Because they are warriors, and would never have the same potential as a merchant.

Bestatte - In your scenario, it sounds as if your person wants to be a crafter, who knows how to defend themselves alittle. In such a scenario, I would pick a Merchant, with an appropriately 'warriorish' subguild, such as mercenary, thug, guard, etc. This is because, to me, the main idea of the character is that they are a crafter, who dabbles in weapons/fighting/training/whatever.

The subguild should define the the characters minor interests, or background history, not the main guild.

Edited to add:

In response to the -last- part of the post (heh, should have read more closely):

The subguild helpfiles state this:

QuoteSubclasses                                                       (Character)

  Subclasses are intended to round out characters with regards to
their primary guild. They are not substitutes for a primary guild.
A thief class will be a better thief than a warrior with the subclass
of thief.  Below is a list of the current coded sub-classes and a
brief description of each.

To me, this is pretty cut and dry. A thief "class" (guild) will always be better than a warrior with the subclass 'thief'. THe same for warriors with the 'tailor' subclass, and merchants.

Understood, Tlaloc - I was a bit concerned because Sanvean had mentioned earlier that -only- the Merchant guild would ever acquire mastery. She clarified that in a later post.

I'm still wondering though - bards have an enormous amount of writeup and are not merely a subclass. They're also a big to-do in the north, requiring special application and/or recruitment to get into. Will a merchant class PC master instrument making, and bards never master it? Even bards who have dedicated their entire lives to music, by virtue of their bardic births and bardic bloodlines?

I don't even know if instrument making is one of the bardic skills - I remember vaguely some posts about it in the past. I only played a bard sub-class once, very early on when it first came out.

Quote from: "Bestatte"I'm still wondering though - bards have an enormous amount of writeup and are not merely a subclass. They're also a big to-do in the north, requiring special application and/or recruitment to get into. Will a merchant class PC master instrument making, and bards never master it? Even bards who have dedicated their entire lives to music, by virtue of their bardic births and bardic bloodlines?

Bards do not start with the instrument making skill.  However, if you are a part of the 'Bards of Poet's Circle' clan, eventually, through role-play, you might take on a skill in that shape.  If your character devotes their lives to that.  There's always exceptions to the rules, because of reason and roleplay.

Cases like these are up to the Immortals in charge of those clans.  You could make up other examples, for people with weapon skills in Salarr, and clothing skills in Kadius.

You know, I was thinking on this in the shower today. (Yea yea yea, laugh all you want. Its a great thinking place!) This change might be a really good thing. I know I have posted opposing thoughts on it but sometimes you have to step back and take a look at the big picture and not just how it affects your pc.

This might be a leading thing to actually make pc merchants a reality instead of them running to sell what they can to shopkeepers because pcs wont buy off of them. Now these pc merchants, if they get good enough, could have specialty things to sell that the merchants wouldnt have. This could definitely stimulate more rp and interaction between players.

Kadius might drool after something an independent made up and try to buy the designs. Miss Fancypants Noble might like the design so much she's willing to pay a few large a year to keep you from making it for the opposition. This could go a long way in any crafting guild for pc to pc rp.

I would definitely like to see these submissions kept as crafting items only so that they arent just slapped into shops later on without some pc physically making said item.

:)

Quote from: "Ayashah"Kadius might drool after something an independent made up and try to buy the designs. Miss Fancypants Noble might like the design so much she's willing to pay a few large a year to keep you from making it for the opposition. This could go a long way in any crafting guild for pc to pc rp.

Or she may have you killed, enslaved, or just plain tied up. Heheheh.

But yes, I agree with your assessment.