I was wondering whether there are, or if people could put down their ideas, on offensive gestures on Zalanthas. I mean, I'm never sure whether giving someone the finger is appropriate...
I'm thinking one could be something to do with blocking the sun over a person... not literally, but in a gesture. *edit*- realised this is crap, and that shade is a good thing.
Also, I was thinking how spitting at someone must be a really big statement, as on a place as dry as Zalanthas you's REALLY have to hate someone to lose any precious spit. Mmm, precious spittle.
My most chars use slitting a finger through their throats and raising a palm then slowly clenching it as agreessive gestures. I also believe RL gestures would be useless, since any kind of sex is not a taboo in Zalanthas. That's why I also avoid calling people 'bitch'.. It's the same as calling them 'stonecarver'... Of course this is just 'my' point of view.
Good question.
Spitting is the most offensive thing I've been able to come up with, so I think you're on the right track.
As far aw what Cenghiz says, he makes a good point that most Zalanthans have a relaxed idea about sex, but consider this:
If two people are friends or trust eachother, a sexual innuendo would be viewed as either a compliment, a nice joke or something erotic.
But if the people have animosity between them, sexual innuendo is more of a threat.
Think about is like this. If my boyfriend were to make a lewd gesture towards me at a party, it would either be humorous or hot.
But if I were walking down the street and some big burly gang member did the exact same gesture at me, and I didn't even know the guy, it would either be interpreted as more of a threat than anything else (like rape or something).
So in game I've used sexual gestures to intimidate people with some success.
I'm not trying to disagree with Cenghiz, just raising a seperate point.
This general topic has come up before. Try to do a search, you may find some useful information.
As far as spitting goes, some cultures on Zalanthas consider that a gesture of respect. To waste your 'water' for someone else shows that they are worth that much.
I'm now thinking of urinating on a templar.
"Dude, it's respectful, Honest!"
And on the topic of sexual innuendo: I think any conotation of rape is going to be deeply offensive. I guess this offense would be amplified greatly if it was inter-racial.
QuoteThink about is like this. If my boyfriend were to make a lewd gesture towards me at a party, it would either be humorous or hot.
But if I were walking down the street and some big burly gang member did the exact same gesture at me, and I didn't even know the guy, it would either be interpreted as more of a threat than anything else (like rape or something).
So in game I've used sexual gestures to intimidate people with some success.
Good point.. Err.. I guess my way of thinking has some flaws.. Too late for the current char but I'll try a better mindset for the next one.
Oh, and bitch is going to be an insult, period. It's not like calling them "stonecarver." it's like calling them a female gortok.
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=56504#56504
Perhaps you are thinking of the term "whore"?
Err.. Yes I mean 'whore'... Bad English... BAD BAD English!
So, yes, bitch can be used as a direct insult, but can it be used in a 'possesive' sense? eg:
Templar fancypants, slapping a half-giant soldier on the cheek, says "That's right, your -my- bitch!"
In the past, my PCs have been known to flick their middle fingers and give the "erdlu" to other PCs.
I even emoted it that way:
emote raises his middle finger and gives ~xyz the erdlu!
Not entirely sure if the other party(s) even understood what I was upto.
The large man spits toward the small man's face.
The small wipes the spit from his cheek and licks his hand offering a grateful smile toward the large man.
No I dont know why that strikes me as funny...maybe I am sick. :)
Not really sure if this is relevant, but in the "old days" it was considered a sign of aggression and open animosity to thumb one's nose at another. But in a traditional context (since most gestures, obscene or otherwise, have social moorings) I'm not sure if that sort of thing would fly on Zalanthas.
Also, you might want to take into account the fact that the people of Zalanthas are really rather primitive and base, and most don't have a terribly long stretch of imagination or intellect, so the best way to publically show one's dislike for another would likely be just to say something like, "I'm going to kill you." Does that make sense, or am I being irrational again?
Offensive gestures that involve body products (spitting, wiping feces upon, wiping blood on, spitting food at or god help us, man chowder) would still be insulting on Zalanthas.
Why?
Because such products typically carry with them the threat of disease and you are showing a disregard for someone's life if you willing use your potentially diseased product on them.
So - spitting would still be insulting. It is a non-verbal "I hope you get sick and die."
Considering how precious moisture is in a desert world, I've always liked the idea brought up by others that spitting would be a kind gesture of greeting or a blessing rather than an insult.
Flick a booger on them. Most people will get the message.
Seeker
Quote from: "CRW"Considering how precious moisture is in a desert world, I've always liked the idea brought up by others that spitting would be a kind gesture of greeting or a blessing rather than an insult.
Yeah, right up until you find out they have some plague, right? ;-)
Well, I'd say spitting would be considered more of good will, seeing how precious water is, and also how hard it is to obtain. If someone was diseased, I'm guessing that person would also have a pretty hard time finding someone to give him water...
By the way, I believe the finger in RL was first used way back by longbowmen to the french, since the third finger was usually cut off if a frenchman caught an english longbowman as a prisoner. It was a means of provoking someone. It's become some other meaning presently, but I wouldn't think provocation for someone to come cut your finger off would apply very well to people in Zalanthas...unless it was toward some intelligent prey...
The middle finger was used to draw a bow, the bane of knights and infantry of the time. That's why its an insult, and thats why it was cut off of archer prisoners.
Armageddon is not Dune, though. In the city, spitting isn't a sign of respect. In some desert tribes, maybe, but I don't know enough about Zalanthan tribals to say for sure.
You're telling me they used one finger to draw a longbow? Do you have a trustworthy source for that?
As a bow hunter using much better (and, actually, lighter) bows than the typical longbow I have a hard time imaging both pulling and holding a bow at full draw with one damn finger.
I have heard that the bows were so strong (this on a discovery show) that the bowman's wrist of the hand that held the bow showed signs of splaying out under the intense pressure.
If the bow were strong enough to do that to someone's wrist, their middle finger would have to look like a forearm I would think!
After a little research, turns out the middle finger being an insult is much older than the longbow. It is supposed to be a derogatory phallic symbol.
The thing about cutting off the middle fingers of archers may have been a coevolution of the gesture, though. Its not that the bow is drawn completely with the middle finger, but without one it is impossible to do.
The More You Know...
It's two fingers (in a reversed V sign) that were used by English bowmen, at the battle of Agincourt, to taunt the French that they still had them and the French hadn't chopped them off - as they were prone to do to the archers.
Moab, I just want to say that probably no one to very few people in Zalanthas knows how diseases and plagues are passed on to people.
The version I heard was a sort of sticking out of the curled first two fingers and waving them in this certain motion, being some sort of obscure British insulting gesture.
Also, Zalanthas is not Dune. Water is scarce and expensive, but the amount of moisture you are losing by spitting one wad of saliva is negligible even with Zalanthan water prices.
As for whether Zalanthans "know" what causes disease, please consider that many "primitive" societies develop all sorts of taboos regarding feces, dead bodies, and other disease-speaders. They don't "know" about germs and communicable diseases either, but their culture evolves in ways that still protect them (somewhat) from those threats. Not liking when someone spits on you would fit nicely into this category, I think.
I think a similar reasoning also applies to this:
QuoteAlso, you might want to take into account the fact that the people of Zalanthas are really rather primitive and base, and most don't have a terribly long stretch of imagination or intellect, so the best way to publically show one's dislike for another would likely be just to say something like, "I'm going to kill you." Does that make sense, or am I being irrational again?
Zalanthans are undoubtedly more technologically and culturally "advanced" than quite a few "primitive" societies in the real world, and those societies have managed to develop culturally specific insults, greetings, etc. "Primitive" doesn't mean that no rich culture can exist, or that there is no imagination or intellect, not by a LONG shot. That is pure Western ethnocentrism.
For what it's worth, the middle finger gesture / archer connection seems to be an internet urban legend.
http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/pluckyew.htm
To get on the subject of the spitting at one as a sign of gesture. I dont mean to flame or get into any sort of arguement, just making a point. It could mean both. Such as.
Such and such commoner spits towards fancy pants noble's feet..
That could mean respect because he is offering his own water, (in a metiphorical {sorry about the spelling} sense not a literal sense of the word)
Now on the other hand.
Such and such commoner spits on fancy pants noble's face..
That could be an insult because it would be much the same as a commoner touching a noble, it would be as insulting as removing the glove and slapping the noble in the face. Or attacking him even, because the commoner is saying that to him the noble is not worth his "water" which would in turn mean hes not worth anything to him and that he would rather give up his life than help the noble or work for him or whatnot. (sorry for dragging on)
But I could be wrong, thats just the way I see it happening, there are many ways one could do things to mean respect and insults at the same time. I think almost anything could be an insult if used in a manner that shows ones ill will towards another. You just have to be creative...
No. You show respect to nobles by bowing (in the south) or with a polite nod (in the north). Spitting is going to get you a painful death.
Maybe so, maybe not, it depends on your character and how well the noble pc is at evaluating a characters traditions and such. You bring a person inside the city who does little with nobles and stick in infront of a noble and its told to be respectful, if his traditions are to spit at his feet, that is what he is going to do, now if said noble player is open minded enough to keep in mind who this character is there shouldnt be a problem.
Said noble might handle it by telling him that is not proper and such, but he would not order a death, now if the noble is close minded and believes everyone knows how to treat a noble and such then or course he would order such and such commoner to death, and in turn would probably get a few accusing looks after it all happened because once everyone found out about the incident. They would wonder why said noble comdemed someone to death for giving him respect, albeit not in the "proper" city way.
Sorry for rambling on, what im getting at is it depends on the situation, characters and such, and I merely meant to use it as an example. I never meant to mix anyone up and make it seem literal or whatnot.
Signed Irathu (sorry I was the anon)
This isn't an argument, its a discussion. If I was short its because I just woke up and my brain hadn'y fully turned on yet. Anyway, there's two issues here.
First, nobles are -not- nice, tolerant, and open-minded people. Unless this tribal is offering metal trinkets or a map to Steinal, an alternate gesture of respect will probably not be tolerated. Granted, yes, death is a harsh punishment for such a crime, but I don't think any noble would ever be frowned upon for giving out some sort of punishment.
Second, water is not that precious in Armageddon. The cities each have at least one well, as do some of the smaller towns/outposts I believe. There are also oases scattered about the land. Yes, water is expensive and people don't normally bathe in it or anything, but its not so rare that people are afraid to sweat, cry, or spit for fear of dehydrating. I just don't see people in Zanathas considering it a sign of respect, except for MAYBE some tribes, but probably just because they want to resemble tribes of a certain other desert world with large worms and spice. :wink:
Just for the record, giving people two fingers is still commonly used over here. I probably did it without thinking a number of times over the last week.
It is to do with English longbowmen and the French. There are historical sources out there that back this, I just can't be arsed to find them. :?
Thx Maruader, honest, that is what I intended to get across. But as you said nobles are not nice and such, But again it all depends on the situation. Some pcs let things go, others do not. As for water being precious thats true its not but it is valuable. Not so much to make someone rich on having water alone, but it would allow for some tensions in some of the deeper tribes and such. As you said a MAYBE.
Anyways it could be something a tribal could pick up or even someone outside of the city as a tradition, but its use would have to be careful and such.
And again forgive me also for being short if I was. I am just glad someone else sees it the way I do.
Irathu.
And for the record, nobles don't have to evaluate a commoner's traditions.
If the commoner thinks thats respectful by spitting on the noble, and the noble doesn't. Someone is going to die.
It seems to me that in a water-precious world, spitting on the ground would be offensive whilst spitting on someone would be a compliment...
Spitting on someone is giving them your water - spitting on the ground is wasting it...
Spit isn't water. And water isn't that scarce, especially to the particular culture that uses spitting as a greeting.
And salive on your skin won't hydrate you in the least. Matter of fact, it will wipe away the moisture barrier covering that bit of skin, as well as dry out the skin, actually robbing you of a bit of moisture.
*shrugs* They do say you learn something new every day!